Have you ever wondered if you're really qualified for what God is asking you to do?

Fear, comparison, and self-doubt can quietly keep us from stepping into the life God has designed for us. In this encouraging conversation, Collide founder Willow Weston sits down with pastor Julie Burleson to talk about overcoming insecurity, trusting God's calling, and why the encouragement of others can make all the difference. If you've ever questioned whether you're "enough," this episode will remind you that God doesn't call the qualified—He qualifies the called.

Meet the Guest

Julie Burleson is the Community Groups Pastor at Christ the King Church in Bellingham, Washington. Called into ministry as a teenager, Julie has faithfully pursued God's leading despite facing opposition, self-doubt, and the unique challenges of serving as a woman in pastoral leadership. She is passionate about discipling leaders, investing in the next generation, and helping people discover how God has uniquely gifted them to serve His Kingdom.

In This Episode, You'll Discover…

• How to overcome self-doubt when you know God is calling you to something bigger.
• Why surrounding yourself with encouragers is essential for living out your purpose.
• The importance of finding mentors and examples who inspire you to pursue God's calling.
• How comparison can keep you from embracing the unique story God is writing through your life.
• Why taking small, faithful steps is often how God leads us into our calling.
• How older and younger generations need one another to build God's Kingdom.

How This Episode Will Encourage You

Whether you're sensing a new calling, wrestling with insecurity, or wondering if God can really use someone like you, Julie's story offers hope. Her journey reminds us that courage isn't the absence of fear—it's trusting God enough to take the next faithful step. You don't have to have it all figured out before God begins using your life.

What happened with me personally, though, is that I doubted that God made me to do this thing. I doubted that I was gifted enough or could be actually used. And even though that wasn't the issue, that was what happened to me.

Like, when I'm going to go preach and I'm feeling like, oh, I don't know if I can do this, or I don't know if I'm the right one to have someone who's willing to say, like, actually, God made you to do this.

Welcome to the Collide Podcast. We're a growing community of everyday chicks colliding with Jesus in our mess, our pain, our joy, and our stories.

We value showing up as we truly are, so that's what you'll find here, walls and masks being torn down so that we can allow Jesus to meet us where we truly are and hear about other women doing the same. We can't wait to collide with you.

Foreign. Welcome to the We Collide Podcast.

I'm Willow Weston, the founder and director of Collide, and today I get to hang out with one super cool chick who has given her life away to serve others. She has a unique story of choosing ministry early on in her life, and that shaped her story in some pretty unique ways.

Julie Burleson has been on staff at a young adult ministry called Ecclesia Discipling Leaders, and though she has no kids of her own, they call her the staff mom, I'm told, because she cares and supports people so beautifully, and she now serves as the community group's pastor for Christ the King Church in Bellingham, Washington. And Julie loves to run, which totally weirds me out.

Ann loves to cook and hang out with her sweet and gifted husband Josh, and she's taught at a few of our Collide events. And I'm blessed to know her. I think she asks amazing questions. She digs deep and invites others to go with her there.

And she's very thoughtful in the way that she follows Jesus and the way she articulates faith. So, Julie, thanks for hanging out on the Collide podcast.

Yay. I'm so excited to be here.

It's fun.

It's really fun.

So let's go back. Will you take us way back to the place you were in when you first sensed that you wanted to go into ministry? Sure.

So I don't know that I could say I wanted to go into ministry. I felt called by God to go into ministry.

I grew up in a denomination of the Christian faith that doesn't believe women can be pastors or serve in Ministry full time. And so I was really, really young, I would say I was in high school when I felt called by the Lord and told that I was going to be in ministry.

And I couldn't reconcile that in my head. Like, I've never seen a woman do that. I don't know how that's even possible. But I felt like the Lord clearly said that I was going to.

And so that was a whole, like, big piece of my journey, was exploring, like, what that could possibly look like and what that meant for me. So, yeah, high school was probably the first time that I felt pretty clearly. I felt it a little bit around the time I was baptized.

And I was baptized when I was 8. You had to introduce yourself at the church, like, once you got baptized.

And I literally took the microphone from the pastor at 8 years old, and I'm like, let me tell you about Jesus.

Like, I just. And they all had a heart attack. Yeah, they're like, oh, it's Chick with a microphone.

And what does she think she's saying? Like, I don't know. But, yeah.

So, like, I felt that really young and then again in high school and was given some really interesting opportunities in high school from a youth pastor who really believed in me and didn't really care, like, gender wise. He cared gifting wise. And so he let me speak at, like, our youth ministry night, which, like, ruffled feathers, but who cares? Like, it was cool.

So I had all these opportunities that were surprising. And then in college, I had to navigate what do I major in and what do I do and what is it? What if I was called to ministry? What could that look like?

And so I ended up minoring in Bible and Christian ministry because I felt like I had, like, my major of psychology. I was like, I have a backup in case, like, this ministry thing does pan out. But I didn't really know what it could look like.

But I met a woman when I was in college, at my college young adult ministry, who was a pastor. And she was the first female pastor I had met. And when I met her, I felt like the Lord told me again, like, julie, you're going to be a pastor.

And so I felt like, okay, I don't know what that means, and I don't know what that looks like, but I'm going to not plan it. I'm just going to follow God.

And that, I think, has kind of summed up how my journey has been, was just taking one step after another and seeking all the opportunities that he had for me at the time. And here I am now.

Yeah. What was that like for you to wrestle with the idea that there were people against this, this thing, this calling that was kind of growing up in you?

Yeah, it was really, it was difficult because it made me question how I was made. So I understood that.

And I do understand that there are people who interpret the Bible differently and that they can look at a verse that I look at and it's not a salvation issue, it's just a how we live issue. And they're, they see something different and totally fine with, with understanding that if we like really wrestled with scripture.

What I, what happened with me personally though is that I doubted that God made me to do this thing. I doubted that I was gifted enough or could be actually used. And even though that wasn't the issue, that was what happened to me.

So it caused more self doubt in how I was like, well, God didn't make me to do this then, like, or I'm not gifted enough or I couldn't actually do it anyway, and I'm not. And so that's not their fault. That's just what happened. And so that was really hard.

And I think I still sometimes doubt that, doubt myself beyond what I should. That still kind of has landed in me in that way.

But I definitely, like, understand there is like some really hard and uncomfortable, like people walking out when I would speak when I was in high school. You don't know what you're doing in high school. Like, why are you walking out on me? I'm just. My youth pastor said like, say some words.

I said some words. I love Jesus. Like, what the heck? And so that was difficult. But mostly the Lord has blessed me with the ability to like, let that roll off of me.

But this. So that particular thing, like, I was like, okay, that's fine, that happened. But the seeds of self doubt, it's. It brewed were like, no good.

Yeah, it's funny why I'm laughing. It's not actually funny, but I'm laughing because I completely resonate. I remember for years working in a college ministry and I would preach.

They had me preaching because of the gift that they were seeing in me. They were having me preach every other week.

So the director than me then the director than me and there was this guy, student who came every week and then as soon as I got up there to preach, he'd stand up and leave every other week. And I'm like, dude, just don't come. Like, why are you walking out like in front of me? Because then you kind of have to, you know, keep on preaching.

But you're like, oh, that just.

It doesn't feel great. Yeah, it totally does.

But it's funny because when you're talking, I think about every woman who is in ministry that you see in ministry or in leadership. The story it took her to get there.

I don't think we necessarily realized all the obstacles in the way kind of held her back and she had to push through to get there. Because you do. You have haters, you have people who write you letters, you have people who make it difficult for you.

And you not only have to get past those things, but you have to get past the negative self belief that it kind of plants in you.

Yeah. Which was. It's so weird how that happens.

And the other thing, I think that people don't realize when you're a woman and you're pursuing ministry or feel very called to. So when I got done with college, I was like, okay, I'll apply for some youth minister. Youth ministry jobs. Why not?

And be like, look at a thing that you're completely qualified for. And the bottom says applicant must be male. Was like, you had that happen? Oh, yeah. Multiple churches will say that explicitly and that.

I mean, I graduated from college a little while ago, but still. And to be like, okay, well, I guess I won't apply there.

Like, your job opportunities are smaller, which is then you're like, really wrestling with your calling. Like, how is it even possible for me to get a job in this? Like, what does it mean? Like, so then you go back to does I'm going to pastor?

Is that going to be on the side? Am I going to pastor in, like, how I am not my title? Like, you have you, like, wrestle through that in a different way.

That, like, I hear guys who feel called to be a pastor and they're like, I'm just going to get a job and I'm going to lead a church. And I was like, I never had that confidence. I had no idea what it was going to look like.

Right. Those opportunities aren't there for women as much as they are for men.

Yep.

That's so interesting that you actually saw those applications now.

Like, I've been in ministry and leadership long enough as a woman where when you say that, I'm like, well, I did you the great favor of letting you know that's not a place you want to work.

I wouldn't have wanted to go the interview. Anyway, thank you very much for saving.

Me the hassle of having to quit this church.

You know what I mean, yeah, absolutely.

Oh, my goodness.

Well, so when you think about that, what, and it created like negative self belief in you, how do you, how are you even battling those beliefs today as you lead?

Yeah, that's a good question. I, I wouldn't say I necessarily do it super well.

Like, it's probably still my biggest struggle is my negative self image and my, my not believing in myself.

But God has been so faithful in giving me the friends that he's given me and the husband that he's given me and the support that he's given me in even my current ministry role from not even just people on my team, but from other people surrounding me that they really help and are good to speak truth.

When I'm doubting, like when I'm going to go preach and I'm feeling like, oh, I don't know if I can do this or I don't know if I'm the right one to have someone who's like, willing to say, like, actually God made you to do this and he just wants you to go do it. So I feel very blessed with how God surrounded me with the right people.

And I have also done a lot of counseling in my life and things like that that have worked to help me, like, try to untangle from the negative self talk that has dominated in my life.

So while it's still my biggest struggle, I would say have come really far because I've been really faithful to try to work on it because I didn't want it to rule all of me and I don't want my minist to be marked with. I didn't take the opportunities God gave me because I doubted myself.

But I want to be someone who steps into what God has for me, trusting him and knowing that him and me is greater anyway. And so, yeah, I have, I have spent a good deal of time praying and working on that, so.

And I love that you have those people in your life. I have those too. And it's funny how you, you need them. Like, I kind of liken it. And you, you like to run? I do not like to run.

I mean, my husband and I, yeah, I think years ago, trained with a double stroller and two kids for like a half marathon.

Yeah. Oh, that's impressive.

Well, I probably haven't ran since, but anyways, so there we are in that training thing and I just remember that goo, you know, that goo stuff that runners like and you slurping and gives you like the calories you need to go on a few more miles. And I Liken the encouragement that people give us. Kind of like goo.

Like.

Yeah. In ministry, when you are in leadership or when you have to do something hard in life and someone encourages you, like, made for this.

You've got this. Keep going. Yeah, it's like that goo of like. Okay, I can make it two more miles. I'm gonna need some more goo. Yeah, a couple more miles.

I can make it through this next little bit because I've had what I need to sustain me. Yeah, absolutely. It's exactly like that.

Yeah.

So when you go back to that beginning of time and thinking this might be your calling, you're baptized in high school, then in college, and you got this minor. Who were some of the early cheerleaders in your life and how did they encourage you?

That's a good question. My youth pastor, who believed in me, like, I said, I think he was just young and didn't know what he was doing. Like, I really don't.

And not that his belief in me was like that, but his. Like, I didn't know that it was going to ruffle feathers if I gave Julie opportunity. I just believe that she could do it.

And that was really huge for me. Like, he just saw my. My gifting and called it out. And so that was significant. And my first small group leader in high school, she was great.

And she was the first one, like, you can do anything that you want to do. You just have to trust God and go for it. And so she was really significant.

And then, yeah, there was a few people in college and post college in my college young adult ministry, the pastor I told you about, who's female, she's really wonderful. And then some of the other people on staff at that ministry were. Were significant in believing in me.

And even though, like, my dream was actually to work at that college young adult ministry, and that job opportunity never worked out, but it wasn't for them not believing in me. And I knew that and that was really significant. And even still, like, I emailed that pastor and I told her, hey, I'm a pastor now.

It's kind of crazy, but I remember you believing in me. And she's like, I. Like, I am not surprised. Like, I saw God's calling on your life and was like, really wonderful.

So, yeah, those were definitely my early people.

Yeah. It's interesting. And maybe this is more of the marathon illustration, which is hilarious because I.

But running ideas illustration though, it is, it is.

You just gotta run one and then you can be in church history forever.

I can use running illustrations and Never run. Because I get it.

I get how it works, but, like, the idea that if you think of your calling and figuring out, you know, what you're made to do and who you're made to be, that there's this sort of sense that there's people, mile one and mile four and mile seven, and they're cheering you on and they're guiding you and correctly throwing you waters and handing you the goo and calling you out and saying, you're doing this. You're almost there. Like, I think all of us have that story of, hey, this is how I got to this place.

And even if you haven't figured out what your calling is, like, there's. People listening today are like, I'm still trying to figure it out. Yeah.

There are people on those mile markers in their life that are saying, you've got this.

You can do this.

I believe in you, and we all need that. Yeah, we still need that.

We continue to need it. Yeah.

Tell me a little bit about. What have you had to sacrifice in order to lean into this calling, both as a woman but just as a human? Like, what is it?

What is it asked of you to really lean into your calling?

Yeah, the calling, I think, for pastoral ministry is. Is a really interesting one, and it does vary.

Like, as a woman, it's kind of strange because you could tell what you do for your job, and it could go either way. Like, even if you're meeting another Christian and they're like, oh, I'm a Christian, too. What do you do for a job? Which is like, the normal.

Everybody asks that question, and then I say, I'm a past. I could have people who are like, oh, that's interesting. I've never met a female pastor before.

Or it could be like, oh, and then the conversational end. And so it feels very precarious sometimes to say what it is that I do for a living, because I just don't know.

Well, and it is also interesting talking to someone who doesn't know the Lord and then saying, I'm a pastor. They have less of a care that I'm a female, but more of a. What does that mean?

Should I not swear around you? Like.

Like, there's the. Like, it's really. I. I joined a running group a few years ago here in Bellingham when we were newer in town, and we. I wanted to get to know people.

And I met another. This other woman. We're standing beside each other, and she's like, what do you do?

And I was like, oh, I work.

With College students and young adults, because that seems very safe. And then I didn't have to, like, worry about all the, like, weird questions. And I asked what she did, and turns out she's a doctor.

But she had that same feeling about her job that it feels like, very kind of weird to about sometimes where people have expectations that go with that title. And so she was like, oh, I work in the medical industry. And we ran together a couple weeks in a row.

And then finally she was like, are you like, a pastor? I'm like, I am. And I was like, you're a doctor, aren't you? She's like, I am so funny. But then I was like, what are we even doing?

Like, we're hiding that part of ourselves because we just don't know what someone else will think of us based on that title and what comes with it.

And so I think that that has been a sacrifice in some ways, like feeling like I don't know where I feel fit or how I'm going to fit into social situations because of that, which is a little bit different than what you would expect when you, like, work. Like, oh, I'm. I work a normal, quote, unquote, normal business job that feels, like, really natural to people. And we understand that in our society.

Right.

Or a ministry job is a little bit different sometimes. So. And some of that's just me being afraid or nervous about what people will say, but that's definitely been that.

And then I think the hours can be so weird and the family sacrifice is really different. So that's something that my husband and I talk about quite a bit, like, what the season is going to look like.

Like, I just came out of a particularly busier season in ministry, and it ebbs and flows, and so we just have to communicate about that. But I work Christmas Eve. I can't be at everything because pastors, that's what we do. And so I miss some family stuff in ways that other.

So other people can celebrate Christ's birth together. I don't get to celebrate with my. And so there's sacrifices like that that I knew, but I didn't know until I experienced them.

So, yeah, it's a little bit different.

When you think of women who are sensing their calling but afraid to take that leap, whatever their calling is. What's your advice to them?

Well, first of all, I would definitely say pray about it, because I do think it's important to try to seek the Lord in it and make sure that you are hearing from him correctly, because sometimes that can be Hard to tell.

So spending the time like that was really beneficial for me for identifying where it is that I was being called to go was spending time, like, really talking with God about it first. And then the other thing I would say is seek out people who. Women who are doing what it is that you want to do.

And that sounds kind of weird because you think, like, okay, so I want to be a lawyer. Like, I'll just, like, watch other lawyers. But there's something to seeing a woman do that.

If you're a woman and you're not sure where it is that you fit or you're like, I think I'm called.

To do this thing.

But because I haven't seen a lot of women do it, I don't know what that could look like. The Internet actually is great.

Like, there's so many people out there that we don't know about, and you could find examples of people doing the thing that you want to do and leading or serving in the way that you want to do that, whatever that might look like in ministry or not.

So, like, for me as a female pastor, I look for women who are preaching, and I try to watch them and see what that could look like for me, because representation does matter. So I would say seek out opportunities to learn from women who have gone before for you and ask them, like, what was your journey like?

And what could I expect potentially going into this? And I would say, too, don't think that.

I think a lot of times, we think our calling a lot of times as women is like, I'm going to be married and stay at home and have kids, or I'm going to be called to this career. Like, either or. But a lot of careers aren't like that. So I would definitely seek out what it could mean for. If you.

If you're sure you want to have kids and be home with them, is this something that God is calling me to right now? And then I could somehow do it differently in the future, but that doesn't mean it'll be completely gone from my life.

But think outside of the box and. And go for it. Just see what happens if you give it a try. Even if you face those, like, times when it.

I had plenty of times when it didn't work out, but I felt like the Lord kept saying to try again, and so I did. So, yeah, somehow, eventually, you just need to, like, take a leap of faith, right?

And lean into the actual work of what it is you feel called to do.

So if you need to go to school or Something like that. Do it.

Yeah. Yeah. I just had a meeting today. An aspiring nonprofit, like, a young person who wants to start a nonprofit ministry asked to meet with me.

I've never met her in my life, and she had all these dreams and of, like, big ideas she wants to do down the road. Like, wants to do a TED Talk, wants to do a book, wants to do all these awesome things, which all sounds super fantastic.

And she asked me, you know what, what's your advice for me to, like, get to this place? And it's interesting because I. I think, well, don't start there.

Don't start with, like, oh, like, I want to have this, like, huge, amazing program or this huge book or this huge whatever. Like, start with the work of what you want to do. If you want to help women who are sex trafficked, then start doing that work.

Like, engage other people are doing that work and see what they're doing. Start engaging women who are hurting. Start asking questions, start reading books.

Like, start doing the work and not think, oh, I have to get a logo, website, or whatever.

Like, right.

I just remember back in the day, way before collide was a thing, and the work that God was calling me to was actually in youth and then college ministry. And the work was sitting across from one broken person, right? After another broken person, after another broken person after another broken person.

And next thing you know, like, you. All those broken people become, in a sense, like, they fill a program.

Meaning, like, then you have what all of a sudden is a ministry because you've sat across from all these people, right? And I think part of it is that leap of faith and calling is like, hey, let's like, do you. Like you said, go job, shadow someone.

Come underneath the umbrella. Someone's teaching. Go learn from someone.

Yep.

Or I like what you said, like, with your example of sex trafficking, like, so when I felt very called to ministry when I was in college, but obviously I'm in college, I'm still learning. So I was a greeter at my young adult ministry. Like, I passed out bulletins and said hello.

Like, I wasn't in front leading the thing, but I was still getting to learn and be a part of it and see what volunteer culture is like and make friends and have fun and all that too. But I got to be a part of the thing.

And what I learned there served me in my next role when I started leading a small group and, you know, like, that kind of stuff. Like, you take those little steps and eventually you get where you're supposed to go. But Those little steps actually all matter.

Yeah. Talk to me a little bit more about representation.

Okay.

Yeah.

The reason why is it's actually been striking me lately, and maybe because I'm starting to get calls from people who are like, hey, who's the latest greatest preacher, Woman preacher.

Who.

Who can pull this off? Who's an amazing woman leader? Like, blah, blah, blah.

And sometimes, you know, as I'm being asked to give names of people, I start to realize, like, the. The pool to draw from is small. But not because women aren't amazing.

Right.

And not because they don't have gifts, but because we haven't had a lot of people mentoring us. We haven't had a lot of people training us up as leaders. So then when, like, you think about representation or.

I. I remember having a conversation where a local. One of my cheerleaders and senior pastor, you know, talked to me about, like, who.

Who do you have to meet with to talk about, like, how hard it is to be a leader?

Yeah.

And it's like, everyone in my file, almost all of them were men.

Right.

You know? Yep. Because we don't have a lot of men teaching women, hanging out and saying, let me teach you how to.

Let me.

Let me teach you how to be a leader of, you know, a corporation. Let me teach you how to do this stuff. So then representation is less.

Y.

So then we have less people to go and shadow and learn from.

Yep.

Tell me a little bit about the importance of. Of women looking up to other women in their areas of calling.

Yeah, I think it's really important. Like I said, I. Like, it was huge in my story. Like, I didn't think that I could be a call to ministry until I met a female pastor.

And I was like, oh, that is actually a thing that exists. Like, when we don't see people living in the way we feel like we're called to live, then we don't understand that it's possible.

And it's not that we couldn't be the one person who breaks all the, like, molds and does this thing for the very first time, but we're very unlikely to think that we can do that. And so it is important that we pay attention and see where there is someone doing something close to what it is that we're called to.

But I do think that there is something for women who are older.

And I'm not old by any means, but I am older than the generation that's coming out of college, and I pay attention to those people who are coming out of college. And saying, I think I might be called to ministry.

I want to invest in them so that they understand that they can do this, because I do right now in my current job. But I have not always had that opportunity. The church I was employed at before the one I am now, there was no other female on staff.

I was the female on staff. And I'm in my late 20s, and I'm, like, figuring it out alone.

And so if you have younger women anywhere near you, no matter what profession you're in, to train them and equip them and tell them like this is possible, you can be whatever it is that you want to be, or what God has called you to be is really important. And I think that that helps shape what we think is even possible to you. We see it differently.

And I think that's really true for women who to have children and have balanced that in a way that works for their family to show that there's so many options and what that means to have kids, have a husband and kids, and still do whatever it is that God has called them to. I think it's really important to know that there's a variety of things you could do that God can work with all of that.

And so without other women teaching women, we lose out on even, like, dreaming sometimes.

Yeah, totally. And. But there is a catchphrase, too. And the other side of it is I see a lot of people who.

They go and look at other women for examples of how do I do this? And then they literally put a formula on it and go, say, you want to be a food blogger. You want to be like a big deal food blogger.

Like, you feel called to do that. Then you're like, well, Susie Q does it exactly like this. So I'm gonna do it exactly like. Susie Q and I talk a lot about, like, be you, not her.

But, like, we can go and we can learn from people and we can ask questions and we can seek wisdom and learn what not to do and what to do. But anytime we start to put a formula on life and go, well, this woman, you know, Julie Burleson, you know, does ministry exactly like this.

I should do it exactly like this. Then we feel disappointed because we're like, oh, it's not working out the same.

Right.

And God has a unique story for each of us that he does writing. And when we try to make our story write exactly how her story writes.

Yep. It doesn't work. And it does. The setup set us up for disappointment or the feelings of failure.

That's why I Think it's really important to use the technology that we have before us and find there's, like, online support groups for people who want to like women who want to be pastors. And then you would meet a variety of women, and so you can.

You have a better scope when you have more than one woman you're looking up to, which is not always possible, like, in person in your profession, but it helps you understand. Like, you can take a little bit here and a little bit here and then couple that with how God made you and create, like, a complete package.

But when we only have the one woman that we're looking at, it's like. Like, you do start to think, like, that's the way to do it, but it's not.

But that because there's so, so few women in so many places, we do start thinking, like, oh, it must be that one. Right. But we have the ability to kind of seek that out in different ways. And so I definitely encourage that.

Like, I love when I hear some of the younger women that work with me say, oh, I reach out to this woman because I wanted to learn about ministry. I'm not, like, sad. They already see how I do it.

I want to know that they're, like, learning other things, too, so that they don't just try to become, like, little versions of, like, what I'm doing or something.

Right, Right.

Yeah. It's really important.

Yeah. It reminds me of I used to, you know, back in the day, Jennifer Aniston's haircut was like, right? Yeah.

Oh, I had it.

And I had a hairdresser that used to joke around that women would come in and be like, I want Jennifer Aniston's hair. And she wanted. Wanted to say, no, you want her. You want her body, too. You don't just want her.

You want all of it and probably her clothes.

You just want to be her, but you're not her. You're somebody else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I.

There's something to where we feel like we can't just be who we are. And I don't know what that is, but I think that that's something that we do.

We, like, look at whoever's the successful or loved or accepted version of the thing that we feel like we're called to, and we want that so we can have all that we think goes with. With that, but our story is going to look different.

And not that we won't be loved and accepted, but we will be for who we are and what we bring to the table. And the way that we express those things.

But it's hard to believe that that's true when your Instagram post gets so few likes, but the one that you're aspiring to gets a ton. We just live in a world where we can see success or failure on a different level or what we deem success and failure.

We judge ourselves pretty harshly. But yeah, we just need to be who God made us to be.

Yeah.

Which is really hard.

Yeah. So let's shift gears a little bit for just for a few minutes before we wrap up. So you spend a lot of your time discipling leaders.

You're a leader who makes other leaders. What excites you about that? What do you get passionate about?

Oh, I think it's so fun. It's probably my favorite thing about my job and it's probably the thing that I would do even if I wasn't paid in ministry.

I love people learning and growing. Part of like discipling and growing leaders is that they're stepping into their calling and whatever that looks like.

And I do think calling is fluid like mine, so happen to be attached to a career. But for someone who may be working with our college young adult ministry right now, their calling might be to be a small group leader right now.

And I get to help them develop the skills that God gave them to impact other people and for them to understand that they are a part of God's story and that he wants to do something in them and through them both while they're in school full time or when they're working full time in their first like grown up job or whatever it is. Like, I can help them uncover some of how God made them and give them an opportunity to start using that in a new and different way.

And that's just so fun to see people like, I'm actually good at this. You are good at that. And actually it's a thing I'm not very good at. But you're like killing pulling it out there.

Like, it's really fun to see people understand that they are gifted by God and that they have something and, and to help them develop that. Like I meet so many people who want to come in like a wrecking ball, like a lot of us do when we're in college.

And that came Miley said.

I know, but it's real and they like. And it's really fun to help them. Like, I totally agree with you. I understand where you're coming from.

But if we try to this way, do you think it'd be received differently?

You Know, like as they're learning how to teach a small group or something like that and having them try something different with a, with the thing that they've been given and see different results. And it's just so fun. I really love it.

And I love thinking that someone can learn some sort of leadership skill here and then wherever God takes them next, they'll take that with them and that he'll continue to grow and develop. And it. So I love it. I love dreaming about what is possible with the next generation.

Yeah. So that's awesome. There's such a hunger. Yeah, there's such a hunger with them.

I find when I'm speaking at retreats or, you know, hanging out, doing coffee, whatever it is, where they still like audaciously believe that they can change the world. They do. And they're just trying to figure out what it looks like.

And it's such a, interesting thing to be in an intergenerational ministry because I was in youth college ministry for a long time, but now I'm having conversations where I'm trying to get like 65 and 70 year olds off the bench. Like they used to believe that and now they're like, I'm too old. People don't want to hear what I have to say.

I'm an empty nester and my adult kids don't want to hear what I have to say. And so other people probably don't either. And I'm like, oh no, like you don't understand.

This younger generation is hungry to change the world and they're hungry for your wisdom and your advice. And so we need you to get off the bench and get in the game.

Yeah, we do. I heard one of my bosses, I serve on two different teams. I have two different bosses.

But one of my bosses is like probably reaching more the end of his career and he talked about that. It's proven that like as you get older, your creativity declines, but your influence increases.

So like when you're young, you're creative, but you don't have influence because you're young and everyone's like, what do you think? What do you think you're doing, little kid? But then as you get older, your creativity declines, but you have more influence.

So you could actually say, hey, come do this thing.

And so we need each other because we need both the creativity that the younger generation brings on, the influence of the older people who can speak it into action in a different way.

And so when I meet with older people all the time, I'm like, no, no, no, no, come hang out, get to know people younger than you and see what you guys guys can do together for the kingdom of God. Because I think we are better together. And it's fun to think about that.

But I have a really hard time convincing older people to want to do much of anything for whatever reason or whatever narrative they've been told about what it's like to be older, or who doesn't listen to them anymore or whatever, or how scary the next generation is. But I would love to see that continue because we do need wisdom from older people and we need their influence in a lot of ways.

And I really love intergenerational ministry.

My dream is that one day we'll have young adult small groups that won't only be peer led, that will have some that older people will lead to, to care for the next generation.

Yeah, that'd be awesome.

It'd be so fun.

I think about a woman who came to Clyde, this is years ago, and I had asked her to speak at clients who said, well, let me come first, because I had heard she'd been in ministry for decades and that was an amazing speaker and people that I really respect highly respect her. And she said, well, let me come check it out.

And she came and she stood in the back of the room and, you know, I walked up and you put my arm around her shoulders and she's like, oh, Willow, I just don't think that. I think I had my time and I don't think these younger people at the time, you know, because.

Because Kaleida once was a college ministry intergenerational, but she's like, I don't think younger people want to hear what I have to say anymore. And this is a woman who had an international ministry, has written books, preached, and created Bible studies across the world.

And I just looked at her and said, are you kidding me? I spent the last over a decade sitting with college students and all they want to do is have coffee and hear wisdom from people older than them.

And I'm tapped out. I need some help to get off the bench.

Anyways, what was super cool is that she did, she got off the bench and she ended up taking over our mentoring ministry.

And within, like, I don't know, a very short period of time, grew it to like a hundred women in our county that were meeting older generation, younger generation. I love the idea that, you know, that can happen.

And I love that your story is one where you had a sense of, of what God was going to use your life to do to impact the world.

And he put people along the way who believed in you, who, you know, gave you that goo, that lead you on, and now you're doing that for other young people.

Yeah, it's really cool. It's really cool. It's really cool. And I. I mean, when I did, I said. I reached out to that female pastor that I had met, and I told her.

I was like, I'm doing the same thing for the next generation because it matters. I wanted her to know that what she had done is now impacting people that she'll never meet.

And I think that that's one of the coolest things, that if everything in the church works the way that it should, that we would be people who would. No matter where it is or what you do, that you would be people who would pour into people coming behind you.

But also, how cool for you to call back and say, it really mattered what you did. And I think we could all take some time. Yeah. To do that. What you did in my life really mattered.

That's encouragement for them to keep going and not sit on the bench.

Yeah. Yeah. As I get older, for sure.

Yeah. Well, thank you for hanging out with me.

It was really fun. Yes.

Really fun. We'll have to have you again, you guys. Thank you for hanging out. We hope that you join us next week. It's. If you want to.

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