Artwork for podcast The Animal Welfare Junction
Animal Crimes and the LINK with guest Mark Randell
Episode 26 • 1st October 2023 • The Animal Welfare Junction • A. Michelle Gonzalez, DVM, MS
00:00:00 01:08:38

Share Episode

Shownotes

Warning: This episode dives into animal crimes and sensitive topics

On this episode, Dr. G and guest Mark Randell discuss different animal crimes and the LINK between animal and interpersonal violence from a local and global perspective.


Mark Randell is a retired senior detective from the UK police. In that role he was was responsible for covert operations, criminal intelligence and analysis and international cooperation on serious crime and terrorism. He retired from the police 13 years ago and has been running undercover ops, campaigning and training about crimes against animals and their relevance in society on 5 different continents. 


Mark is currently a campaign manager for Naturewatch Foundation, a UK based charity responsible globally for World Animal Day, and also campaigning within many areas inclusing wildlife crime, animal experiments and puppy farming. Mark’s campaigns include working in Ukraine which Naturewatch Foundation has done since 1994 and ‘Protect Animals. Protect People’ that highlights the animals– human abuse link. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Transcripts

Speaker:

Dr. G: Hi and welcome to

the Animal Welfare Junction.

2

:

This is your host Dr.

3

:

G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

4

:

Today we have a special guest

from the UK, Mark Randall.

5

:

Mark is an international specialist

in crimes against animals and retired

6

:

senior detective for the UK police.

7

:

So thank you so much, Mark, for

joining us today at the Junction.

8

:

Hi.

9

:

So, uh, to get started, can you tell

us about your background, kind of,

10

:

you know, where you started and how

you ended up where you're at now?

11

:

Mark Randell: Okay, I'll try and summarize

it because I have a long policing career,

12

:

but I spent, uh, I joined very young

in the police and I started working

13

:

with Uniform Patrol, um, and then I

started working, I started moving on to

14

:

undercover operations, covert, covert ops,

drug work, narcotic work, intelligence

15

:

operations, criminal analysis, and

then, um, I, uh, Got a few promotions,

16

:

and I started being responsible for

serious crime and counterterrorism, and

17

:

particularly international collaborations,

so criminals and terrorists that were

18

:

transiting around the world and looking

at trying to preempt what they were doing.

19

:

Looking mostly at that covert op,

so undercover kind of work was

20

:

probably my specialism overall.

21

:

Um, I retired about 13 years ago and had

the opportunity, I've always loved being

22

:

around animals, I had the opportunity to

actually transfer some of the skills I

23

:

picked up over that policing career, um,

to help animals and that's really what

24

:

I've been doing for the last 13 years.

25

:

I suppose because I've tended to have a, a

global perspective on things, it's enabled

26

:

me to look beyond, uh, certainly beyond

the UK borders, beyond Europe, and I've

27

:

had, I've been able to do work probably

in about five different continents.

28

:

So it's given me a great overview

around the world, really, of what

29

:

actually is very similar problems.

30

:

Dr. G: I see that in that a lot

of people think that, you know,

31

:

like our problems here in the U.

32

:

S.

33

:

are just our problems.

34

:

And nobody realizes that

animal crimes occur everywhere.

35

:

There may be a little bit of a

difference in the, the types of crimes

36

:

or how they are, how they occur.

37

:

But overall, I think that, I

mean, there is a connection and

38

:

we can all learn from each other.

39

:

And as you have mentioned, some

of these crimes do cross borders.

40

:

So we have to, we have to take

that into consideration, right?

41

:

Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean, you've got,

I mean, not, not every crime problem is

42

:

the same, clearly, but there are shared,

um, the way that crimes develop within

43

:

communities, within society, are, they

share the same pathways, um, and that

44

:

happens from country to country, from

crime type to crime type, to oversimplify

45

:

that, if the problems are the same, then

very often the solutions are the same, and

46

:

therefore it's really important to learn

from each other's experiences, um, as well

47

:

as, as you say, there are actual crime

problems that they cross borders anyway.

48

:

And that's perhaps, you know, 20, 30 years

ago, they physically had to cross borders.

49

:

Now, of course, they could

do that electronically.

50

:

So you've got another level on top of what

traditionally has been cross border crime.

51

:

You've now got crimes which originate

on the internet and can reach, you

52

:

know, 100 countries in seconds.

53

:

So tackling animal abuse or human

abuse or any other crimes requires

54

:

collaboration, but it also requires

understanding what the motivation is and

55

:

what's behind it to be able to share the

solutions to stop animal and other crime.

56

:

Dr. G: So one of the main things that

we that I want to talk with you is about

57

:

the importance of the link between animal

cruelty and interpersonal violence.

58

:

I think that animal people that

love animals are worried about the

59

:

impact that the violence has on the

animal, but we don't look beyond that.

60

:

Uh, same thing, people that are

concerned about human violence don't

61

:

really comprehend the importance of

those animals as sentinels or as the

62

:

first part, the first step of, uh,

of that violence, violent behavior.

63

:

So can you explain to our

listeners what is the link?

64

:

Mark Randell: I suppose when, um, a lot of

people grow up looking at, uh, crime and,

65

:

uh, policing, law enforcement, perhaps

through the media, watching Netflix,

66

:

watching documentaries, and, and for

them, a crime scene, uh, stereotypically

67

:

is, uh, you know, a body laying on the

ground with a knife in it, or gunshots

68

:

And the numbers all around it,

photographs taken, and that's a

69

:

sort of stereotypical crime scene.

70

:

But crime scenes are much,

much wider than that.

71

:

Um, so there could be a, you know,

domestic abuse crime scene, for

72

:

example, may involve child abuse,

it may involve animal abuse.

73

:

If you look at an animal abuse crime

scene, it may well involve plenty

74

:

of other things in relation to

harm to children, harm to domestic

75

:

survivors of human abuse and so.

76

:

Those crimes, those crime scenes

cross over between all sorts

77

:

of types of, of criminality.

78

:

Uh, traditionally in, in a lot of

countries they've been separated, so

79

:

responsibility and resources have been

put into tackling human crime, as it

80

:

should do, and animal crime is quite

often left a little bit on the shelf

81

:

as if it's somebody else's problem.

82

:

Animal charities, uh, 501s, you

know, different organizations pick up

83

:

the pieces from, from animal crime.

84

:

When actually, looking at it quite

often, it's an indicator of what's been

85

:

happening within a relationship, what's

been happening within a family unit, or

86

:

what's been happening within a community.

87

:

That could be from The connection between

domestic abuse and animal abuse, or

88

:

it could be between dog fighting and

serious crime within the community.

89

:

So it's, or it could actually be, and

one of the subjects I've done quite a lot

90

:

of research into is animal sexual abuse.

91

:

You know, the link between animal

sexual abuse and child sexual

92

:

abuse is very, very strong.

93

:

So it's, it's, it's really important to...

94

:

Whilst to consider a link, there is a

link, it's to, we shouldn't be separating

95

:

them in the first place, you know, a,

a, a one crime type, uh, is very, very

96

:

closely connected to another crime

type, and, and actually, often it's the

97

:

motivation of the perpetrator that, that

matters, rather than what the technical

98

:

crime is that that person has committed,

why did they commit that crime, um,

99

:

and, As opposed to what the species of

their subject was at the end of the day.

100

:

So that motivation, particularly if

you want to stop it happening, you

101

:

need to be looking at that motivation.

102

:

Dr. G: We were discussing that October

is National Domestic Abuse Awareness

103

:

Month and that is, uh, it is important

to bring the awareness as far as

104

:

not just the injury to the animals.

105

:

Some people may think, well,

this person is abusing the animal

106

:

because they're just abusive.

107

:

So just how they abuse the animal,

they abuse the people, but I don't

108

:

think a lot of individuals are aware

of the aspect of control, the animals

109

:

being used to control the at that

time, a domestic violence victim.

110

:

Mark Randell: Yes, I mean, , animal

abuse can be committed for a

111

:

variety of different reasons, for

a variety of different motivations.

112

:

Um, one study that I looked at

recently, um, was particularly

113

:

relevant for me in that an animal

brought into the home is far more

114

:

likely to be abused than one which was

originally in there in the first place.

115

:

And I think that probably goes to the

heart of what a domestic abuser does,

116

:

in that they create, I'm generalizing

a little bit here, of course, but they,

117

:

they, they create a situation whereby they

allow their victim to build a relationship

118

:

with an animal which if you're in

a domestic or a stressful situation

119

:

could actually be far more important

than if you're not in that situation.

120

:

So they, so the abuser actually cultivates

this relationship because of course

121

:

they can then exploit that relationship.

122

:

And because many abusers are so

manipulative, they actually go to

123

:

that length so they could potentially

bring a puppy into the, or a dog

124

:

or a cat into the family unit.

125

:

So that their, um, their victim, um,

builds that relationship because they

126

:

rely on that, they need that comfort.

127

:

Um, you know, another study shows

that 70 percent of cat owners actually

128

:

have cats because they feel lonely

and they build that relationship.

129

:

Um, the victim builds that relationship

with the owner and therefore that makes

130

:

it much easier for the perpetrator

to exploit it to be able to then

131

:

exert that pressure, that control.

132

:

I wouldn't say domestic abuse is my,

my understanding, it's, it's always

133

:

about control, but it's certainly

very, very relevant in there.

134

:

Um, most of my understanding of how

criminals and abusers operate comes from

135

:

the undercover work that I used to do.

136

:

Um, specifically I did some work with,

uh, child sex offenders for a while.

137

:

Um, I'm working within prisons and

within, um, in, in society on, on

138

:

how child sex abusers minds work.

139

:

Um, not from a study perspective,

but actually because I needed

140

:

to infiltrate them to be able to

tackle that kind of investigation.

141

:

And, and I can see a lot of similarity

in terms of the control and the,

142

:

the, the deviousness, the, the, the

planning that goes in to, to that.

143

:

So I'd see it present

within domestic abuse.

144

:

I see it within a lot

of animal abuse cases.

145

:

And.

146

:

To be able to understand how to tackle

both of those types of crime, you need

147

:

to understand how the perpetrators

are thinking and what they're doing

148

:

and put, putting actions in place to

prevent that happening in the first

149

:

place, or at least identifying it.

150

:

Dr. G: And some people , there's a

lot of victim blaming is how I see it.

151

:

And it's like, why did you not get out?

152

:

Why did you not do anything?

153

:

Some people think that people

that are victims of domestic

154

:

violence are either uneducated.

155

:

Or are not financially stable.

156

:

And this is a problem

that transcends, right?

157

:

Like socioeconomic, racial,

cultural, gender education.

158

:

Like anybody can be a victim.

159

:

Uh, in one of the classes that I'm

currently taking, uh, there was a victim

160

:

statement or a survivor statement because

she is no longer in that situation.

161

:

Where she was describing how she had

a degree from Harvard, I believe.

162

:

And she was doing really well.

163

:

And this person that she loved just

isolated her from everybody and then

164

:

she she had an animal and then the

abuse started and that's what became so

165

:

difficult to get out So I think that it

is very important for us to understand

166

:

The, you know, kind of, kind of how,

how things happen and to understand the

167

:

struggles that people in those, in those

situations are undergoing to better

168

:

be able to help because another thing

that I learned that was, I, I guess

169

:

a little bit surprising was that 70

percent of the, at least in the United

170

:

States, 70 percent of the injuries.

171

:

Uh, serious injuries or even

people that end up being killed

172

:

is during that process of leaving.

173

:

Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean, I don't

know if you've had, um, I don't know, I

174

:

mean, it's not my book, so I don't know

if I'm allowed to talk about a book,

175

:

but I don't know if you've ever read,

um, Jane Monkton Smith's control book

176

:

on dangerous relationships and how they

end in murder, but it's a brilliant book

177

:

that talks about the end stages of an

abusive relationship turns into homicide.

178

:

Um, and that's exa that's exactly it.

179

:

There is...

180

:

When I joined the police, uh, a senior

detective, you know, spoke to me at

181

:

one point and said every, you know,

every domestic abuse case you need

182

:

to be going to is potentially murder,

and that's how you need to treat it.

183

:

Um, and we know that...

184

:

Victims will potentially stay

in a family, in a domestic abuse

185

:

relationship through up to 50 incidents,

potentially, before they even leave.

186

:

You know, I suppose if you've got,

you know, if you've got money,

187

:

if you've got a support network,

you may leave more quickly.

188

:

But if you've got pets, if you've

got dependents, and pets are

189

:

dependents, animals are dependents,

you need, you know, you're going to

190

:

be thinking, what happens with that?

191

:

Because.

192

:

You can't, you can't leave your dependents

behind and leave that abusive situation.

193

:

So what do you do?

194

:

Where are you going to take that animal?

195

:

What's your support

network for that animal?

196

:

Um, and if you do leave that animal

behind, of course that's the lever

197

:

that your perpetrator is potentially

going to use to get you to return.

198

:

So, that, uh, animal needs to

be taken somewhere safe, foster

199

:

care system, and permanently.

200

:

Which then causes issues over property.

201

:

I understand, understand those

issues, but, um, That will be a,

202

:

uh, a tool for the perpetrator to

use to get you to go back again.

203

:

So, it's important to understand

that, uh, being able to leave

204

:

the animal has to be possible.

205

:

Knowing that the animal is going to

be safe and it's looked after, and it

206

:

won't be used by the perpetrator to,

to get you to return, which potentially

207

:

is then going to turn into, you know,

more abuse and even a domestic homicide.

208

:

Dr. G: Yes, some of the statistics

that they gave us is that the average

209

:

um, victim takes about seven different

Attempts to leave that relationship

210

:

and, and it's always because also

these, these abusers are very good at

211

:

controlling and they're very good at

charming their way back and the, and the

212

:

spouse, the partner, and not always a

woman, sometimes men can be also victims

213

:

of, of domestic violence, it, they're

looking for that original person, right?

214

:

That the person that they fell in love

with, they think that that person is

215

:

still in there and they keep coming back.

216

:

But it also brings us back to the

importance of making sure that the

217

:

animals are taken care of, because

you cannot expect somebody to leave

218

:

and leave their animals behind.

219

:

Um, there are, there are several

organizations here in the U.

220

:

S.

221

:

that are working at creating more co

sheltering so that individuals can

222

:

leave and bring their animals with

them without that, that concern.

223

:

Is that something that we are seeing,

uh, more also in, in other countries?

224

:

Mark Randell: I mean, in England

and Wales, which obviously

225

:

I've got the best knowledge of,

there's two national projects.

226

:

One specifically looks after dogs

and one specifically looks after

227

:

cats, but there are a number of

smaller ones too, in local areas.

228

:

Um, so we have a freedom project, which

looks after, we'll take care of dogs,

229

:

um, and a, um, the Paws Protect will look

after cats, um, and of course they need

230

:

to be taken nationally anyway, because

a lot of dogs are recognisable, you

231

:

can't just take them down the street,

because the perpetrator will see them.

232

:

Um, so they need to be, there needs to

be an element of secrecy in relation

233

:

to where you're actually going to

keep the animals, but it's, it's

234

:

critically important they exist.

235

:

I know in Australia, in New South

Wales, for example, um, Some of those

236

:

are funded by the local government

because of the need, um, The bottom

237

:

line is you've gotta get victim

survivors outta abusive situations.

238

:

You've gotta get 'em for

their own protection, but also

239

:

because it's potentially gonna

turn into a domestic homicide.

240

:

You know, we, we don't want, we know

the numbers of those and we know

241

:

that coercive control is the type of

domestic abuse behavior, which is most

242

:

likely to lead to domestic homicide.

243

:

So it's really important

to be able to get them out.

244

:

And so that's where investment

can help so that at least people

245

:

know that if they leave with their

animal, They can take it somewhere.

246

:

I did some training in, uh, in

Italy a couple of years ago.

247

:

And I went into a police station, um, and

as part of the reception for, for victims

248

:

that were leaving abusive situations,

there was a facility there for young

249

:

children, but there was also some very

basic facility there for dogs and cats.

250

:

So, you know, at three o'clock in

the morning, if you need to get

251

:

out, take two children with you.

252

:

You can take your dog or cat to the

police station and it'll be protected.

253

:

Uh, that was quite a, uh, um,

an enlightening moment for me.

254

:

Um, you know, there are some

really good processes around

255

:

the world that can be shared.

256

:

And the Italian project is

a particularly good one.

257

:

Dr. G: And in the, in the topic of

children, the children are not just

258

:

being the victim of abuse, but living

in those situations also increases

259

:

the risk that those kids are going to

grow up and become abusers themselves.

260

:

Or, or even , commit

animal cruelty offences.

261

:

Mark Randell: Yes, I mean, I, you

know, children who witness animal

262

:

cruelty are more than eight times more

likely to be perpetrators themselves.

263

:

Um, and I think something like 60

70 percent of animal cruelty in the

264

:

home occurs in front of children.

265

:

Domestic, expect, children who are abused

to domestic abuse are three times more

266

:

likely to exhibit cruelty to animals.

267

:

And in fact, last month, The United

Nations, uh, through General Comment

268

:

26, have, have actually recognized

the impact of, uh, animal abuse

269

:

committed in front of children.

270

:

Um, I've been training in

Ukraine for a number of years,

271

:

before the war, particularly.

272

:

They have a, in their criminal

code, they have, um, extra jail time

273

:

for offenders who actually commit

animal abuse in front of children

274

:

because they consider it so serious.

275

:

The UK has just put it into its

cruelty sentencing guidelines,

276

:

the recognition of animal abuse

committed in front of children.

277

:

It's something which does seem to

be gathering momentum in a number

278

:

of countries around the world.

279

:

Dr. G: I think here it's that's

being recognized in things like

280

:

dogfighting, whereas it's a felony

if you bring a child to a dogfight.

281

:

Right.

282

:

Um, so, uh, kind of

switching track a little bit.

283

:

I know that you have done some work with

dogfighting, both locally and globally.

284

:

So can you explain to us a little

bit of your work with dogfighting

285

:

and the importance of the dogfighting

with human crimes with other crimes?

286

:

Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean, I started,

in fact, dogfighting was the, the,

287

:

um, the crime, really, that got me

to, uh, understanding why animal

288

:

abuse really happens in isolation.

289

:

And I was, I don't know, sometime in

the:

290

:

team, uh, who were running guns around the

UK, um, but they were also dogfighters.

291

:

But the way that our structures

worked, um, worked, police didn't

292

:

look at dogfighting, and so I ignored

it, and as a result, we didn't

293

:

tackle that organized crime gang.

294

:

And, uh, I found that frustrating,

is that we failed because we, we

295

:

failed to look at dogfighting.

296

:

So, in, in, from about 2013, but

particularly from:

297

:

looking at global dogfighting.

298

:

Uh, most of my work at that time

was looking in the Balkans, in

299

:

Greece, and in Bulgaria, and

other places in Eastern Europe.

300

:

And it was looking at the links between

organized crime and dogfighting.

301

:

And, uh, specifically we looked at,

A gang operating out of Bulgaria who

302

:

were shipping fighting dogs to about 50

different countries around the world.

303

:

Uh, and one area they were working

on was in Greece, where the, having

304

:

briefed the Hellenic police in Greece,

they did a number of raids and made

305

:

arrests of crime gangs who were running

protection rackets around the seaports.

306

:

Uh, and they were also dogfighters.

307

:

So...

308

:

Investigating that dogfighting properly

allowed them to be able to take down

309

:

organized crime gangs, seize cash,

seize guns and, and prevent people from

310

:

being threatened in their community.

311

:

So, it just shows really that if

tackling dogfighting is important anyway

312

:

from an animal welfare perspective.

313

:

But if serious, if those responsible

for serious and organized crime

314

:

work take dogfighting seriously,

they can actually use it as a, as an

315

:

opportunity to find a different angle

into their organized crime gangs.

316

:

Dr. G: I had my first.

317

:

, experience working with

dog fighting last year.

318

:

Uh, I was able to go, and it, the

case is still in progress, so I

319

:

cannot talk too much about it.

320

:

But, it was a very interesting perspective

as far as going to the, going to the

321

:

location, seeing how the animals are

being taken care of, or not taken care of.

322

:

Um, but then more importantly, all the

other things that were associated with it.

323

:

There were guns, there were

drugs, there was money.

324

:

And in some of these, there's human

trafficking, uh, child pornography

325

:

and all of these other crimes.

326

:

So just again, how that link between

the animal violence and the, and

327

:

the human issues are occurring.

328

:

Mark Randell: I think for me, um,

the main answer is to be keeping

329

:

an open mind and police officers.

330

:

particularly should be doing that anyway.

331

:

So when they turn up at, you

know, I started the conversation

332

:

talking about crime scenes.

333

:

Um, if you talk, turn up at an

animal crime scene, a human crime

334

:

scene, it's considering that it may

well include all types of crime.

335

:

Um, and therefore you talk to, you

know, you look at dog fighting.

336

:

It's interesting to talk about child

pornography because that's something which

337

:

has featured certainly in an investigation

in Spain that Um, and in a couple of

338

:

other areas, and the other thing that

does seem to pop up every now and again

339

:

is radical extremism and dogfighting.

340

:

So, it could well link

to, uh, to terrorism.

341

:

I mean, there's a

particular case of the link.

342

:

That happened actually, um, in New

Jersey, I don't know if you're aware

343

:

of the case in New Jersey where police

were called to a, a dog that had been

344

:

stabbed, um, and when they looked at

the dog that had been stabbed, they

345

:

actually asked the question, you know,

what's the motivation behind this?

346

:

What they identified was a radical, uh,

an individual who'd been radicalized into

347

:

Islam and had, uh, built a pressure cooker

bomb which was destined for New York City.

348

:

So by investigating that stabbed dog,

and the dog was fine at the end of it,

349

:

I understand, by investigating that

professionally and properly, they actually

350

:

managed to deal with a terrorism case.

351

:

And for me, that's one of the most

sort of extreme examples of the link

352

:

of between animal and human abuse, but

also why you should deal with animal

353

:

cases professionally, looking at

motivation, looking at the crime scenes.

354

:

, Dr. G: you brought up earlier as

far as the animal sexual abuse

355

:

and why it is important to,

um, to investigate these cases.

356

:

I have had the opportunity to work

with a couple of cases, and what has

357

:

been the most frustrating for me as a

forensic veterinarian is the , the lack

358

:

of understanding of some prosecutors,

some attorneys, to I guess to take the

359

:

word of the veterinarian in saying these

are the signs that we're seeing this

360

:

is what we believe happened and then

trying to prosecute it not understanding

361

:

the concerns with with children and

that and that's one of the things

362

:

that I would like to see is animal.

363

:

sexual abuse being part of like the

sexual offender registry, because I

364

:

think that there is, you know, it would

be important, uh, from what research I

365

:

found is that at least about 30 percent

of Individuals that commit sexual

366

:

crimes against animals are likely to

commit a sexual crime against a child.

367

:

It's still a defenseless victim.

368

:

It's still, you know, an innocent victim.

369

:

Are there such registries in the

UK and are animal sexual crimes

370

:

taken more seriously than here?

371

:

Mark Randell: Sadly, no.

372

:

They, um, I mean, sexual crimes, um,

The jail sentences for animal sexual

373

:

crimes, specifically, and they're very,

very limited, what constitutes an animal

374

:

sexual crime in the UK, um, uh, is

less than it is for animal abuse, the

375

:

maximum jail sentence, which is a shame.

376

:

Um, we have a piece of legislation which

looks at, um, Child Abuse Online and

377

:

Animal Sexual Abuse Online and over, over

a year I looked at those and 73 percent

378

:

of the cases where Child Abuse Online was,

was found, Animal Sexual Abuse was found,

379

:

and that seems to be a common theme.

380

:

Um, there's a recent case in Australia

which many, uh, listeners may have seen,

381

:

uh, in relation to the Crocodile Guy.

382

:

I'm not going to give him satisfaction

in talking about his name.

383

:

of online abuse, um, which

is, is not a one off, sadly.

384

:

It's happened.

385

:

I mean, of course, it's not a

one off because he was linked

386

:

into the Telegram channel.

387

:

Uh, I did a case in Ukraine where on

the VKontakte channel based in Russia,

388

:

there was a, um, there was another

case of a 24 year old that was killing

389

:

animals, um, and broadcasting it online.

390

:

And of course, there's only a benefit

doing that if people are watching it.

391

:

So there's a, there's a huge network

out there which needs to be dealt with.

392

:

So, it doesn't happen, um, animal

sexual abuse offenders do not get put

393

:

on a sex offenders register in the UK.

394

:

Uh, the legislation is quite

complicated, but, um, we have, there's

395

:

105 offences in, in England and Wales.

396

:

which could allow a person to be put on

a sex offender's register effectively.

397

:

One of those is assaulting a person

in charge of a shipwreck, whereas

398

:

animal abuse is not on there.

399

:

That's how crazy the law is.

400

:

Um, and uh, there's not many people

convicted of assaulting someone

401

:

in charge of a shipwreck anymore.

402

:

That's an old piece of legislation.

403

:

So, that needs to be put on there.

404

:

But also for me, it's about the motivation

of the person doing it because we

405

:

had a case, there was a case in the

UK which came to court, uh, a couple

406

:

of weeks ago, where an individual

had been convicted of strangling a

407

:

horse and slashing it with a knife.

408

:

Um, now that's an animal welfare offence.

409

:

They were convicted of an

animal welfare offence.

410

:

The motivation behind what

happened was never uncovered.

411

:

But for me, That is shouting out that

that's a sexual offence, that individual

412

:

is a very dangerous individual, that needs

to be at least subject to some kind of

413

:

psychological assessment and monitoring.

414

:

It may well be they've got another

motivation, but we should be

415

:

proactive in preventing, in protecting

public children and animals.

416

:

And, and, uh, definitely not all animal

abuse offenders potentially need to

417

:

go onto a sex offenders register, but

certainly those where either there is

418

:

Sexual intent or, or, yeah, when there is

some kind of sexual intent, there needs

419

:

to be some kind of referral, I think.

420

:

Dr. G: As I was, as I was looking

into, into the topic, I found that,

421

:

you know, not, not every state in the

United States considers, animal sexual

422

:

crimes, or bestiality, uh, crime.

423

:

Um, the majority does,

but not all of them.

424

:

And then of the ones that do, about

half consider it a minor crime, a

425

:

misdemeanor, and then the other half

consider it a major crime or a felony.

426

:

Uh, and it, it's just interesting

to, to see just the, that grayscale

427

:

where one state may just...

428

:

Again, consider it a minor crime and no

big deal, but yet another state may think

429

:

that it is enough to be a major crime.

430

:

Um, they, they understand

the, the relationship of it.

431

:

Here in Ohio, where I'm at, it

is considered a misdemeanor.

432

:

So the, for, for it to ever become

something in a sexual registry

433

:

is unlikely because we don't even

consider it that big an offense.

434

:

Um, but, but then, at least we,

it does give us the opportunity

435

:

to charge two separate crimes,

because then it becomes separate

436

:

from the animal cruelty side of it.

437

:

Um, so if the animal is actually

harmed in the process, then

438

:

they may have animal cruelty in

addition to the, to the sex crime.

439

:

Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean, for me, when

you, even if you take the opinion that

440

:

animal sexual abuse is not a serious

crime, it's what it indicates to me,

441

:

That, that, that should be being,

should be featuring on terms of safe,

442

:

safety protection programs, whatever.

443

:

I, it's, you know, I keep saying that

animal crime rarely happens in isolation.

444

:

I think it's extremely unlikely that

somebody who sexually abuses an animal

445

:

for the rest of their day, for the rest

of their life, is a law abiding citizen.

446

:

They don't, they're not

involved in domestic abuse.

447

:

They're not involved in, uh, cyber abuse.

448

:

They're not online, you know,

downloading child abuse images.

449

:

They're just...

450

:

But it gives you an opportunity to

look into that crime further and to

451

:

look into that person's offending or

into that community, what's happening.

452

:

And of course community, and I touched

on this earlier on, a community

453

:

traditionally was, you know, a

village, a town, a city of people.

454

:

Now your community is a,

is an online community.

455

:

It gives you an opportunity to have

a look at that to protect the public.

456

:

I mean, England and Wales again have

got a um, a new piece of legislation

457

:

which has finally got through

parliament and is just waiting for

458

:

royal, royal assent at the moment.

459

:

Um, an online safety bill which is

in theory is there to protect people

460

:

from what's happening on, on, online.

461

:

Now animal abuse is included within that

which is a really, really positive step.

462

:

So it's, it's, we're still trying to

iron out what that's going to look like

463

:

but in theory people who are posting

animal abuse online or platforms

464

:

that are doing it will be liable.

465

:

Uh, in the UK, criminally liable.

466

:

So, there is pro there's

really good progress around

467

:

the world in a lot of areas.

468

:

I'm, you know, people ask me, you know, do

you get a bit depressed dealing with this?

469

:

Because it, it's constant.

470

:

There's so many problems, so many issues.

471

:

But there is also some

really, really good progress.

472

:

It's amazing people working

within animal welfare.

473

:

At a very professional level and um,

I'm very, very hopeful about it because

474

:

there's some good things happening.

475

:

Dr. G: I think that, I do agree

that we are moving forward.

476

:

You know, I get asked that question as

well, as far as how can you see these

477

:

horrible cases and then still smile?

478

:

I, uh, I was a guest.

479

:

Uh, instructor at a class and one of

the students said, you know, you just

480

:

showed us all these horrible things

that humans do to animals and yet you're

481

:

here and you're standing up and you're

smiling and you kind of have to have

482

:

that forward perspective as far as I'm

helping this right now and I am making,

483

:

you know, the world a little bit better

and it's Unfortunately, it is going to,

484

:

to keep going for a bit, but I think

that the more we work together, the

485

:

better the chances of, um, of making an

impact, not just locally, but globally.

486

:

Mark Randell: I often get asked, you

know, how do I deal with looking at animal

487

:

abuse images and how do I deal with that?

488

:

And it's, it's...

489

:

Now everybody has to have their own coping

mechanism of what they deal with, and I

490

:

suppose I learned mine when doing sort of

undercover work with child sex offenders.

491

:

You know, how I deal with it is I don't

look at things I don't need to look at.

492

:

When I do need to look at something,

I only look at it from the perspective

493

:

that I need to look at it from.

494

:

So if I'm looking at a dogfighting case, I

don't necessarily might, you know, I might

495

:

not need to see what the injuries are.

496

:

What I'm trying to identify is who the

people are involved in it, so I can

497

:

actually look at it slightly differently.

498

:

Um, obviously a veterinarian, if you're

a forensic veterinarian, you might

499

:

need to look at the specific injuries.

500

:

But it's actually not exposing yourself

to stuff that, um, you don't need to look

501

:

at, you don't need to be involved in.

502

:

You know, if I could go through

my various timelines, there's all

503

:

sorts of stuff that goes on there.

504

:

Um, I was recently contacted about a

case that originated in China of online

505

:

animal abuse, and they sent, wanted

to send me all the images, and I'm

506

:

thinking, I don't need to know that,

why do I need to see these images?

507

:

I, I know what animal cruelty looks

like, what I need to identify.

508

:

is where is it happening, who are the

agencies who are likely to deal with it,

509

:

you know, what evidence is there, how have

you collected your evidence, so that the

510

:

case can be presented in the right way.

511

:

I don't need to look at, you know,

a cat being killed, because I know

512

:

what a cat being killed looks like.

513

:

That way I can reduce the impact, I

think, to myself, but everybody has

514

:

their own, has to develop their own

coping mechanism in relation to that.

515

:

Um, as an undercover officer, I

used to have, like, psychological

516

:

assessments on a, on a regular basis.

517

:

Um, the animal welfare world doesn't

do that, but it's good to talk, it's

518

:

good to share experiences, it's good to

help each other through this, I think.

519

:

Dr. G: Yeah, the way that I, that I

personally cope with it is I see...

520

:

I, I see it as evidence, right?

521

:

I try to have a very objective perspective

about it so that when I'm looking,

522

:

you know, if I'm looking at a, at a

cadaver, to me, it's evidence, it's,

523

:

it's bones, it's tissue, it's information

to be able to catch the perpetrator.

524

:

Um, I.

525

:

I try not to dwell on the actual

the actual suffering that occurred.

526

:

I know that there was suffering.

527

:

I know that there was injury.

528

:

I know that there was pain, but I

try not to internalize that because

529

:

then one case and you're done.

530

:

Um, you know, I worked with the Humane

Society of the United States and one of

531

:

the things that they are very good about

is offering that kind of emotional support

532

:

for the individuals because you have

also a lot of different people, everybody

533

:

from people that are trained and have

worked in the field for many, many years

534

:

to volunteers that perhaps this is their

first exposure to something like that.

535

:

And it can be very impactful.

536

:

People are in those, in those

positions because they love animals.

537

:

And clearly if you love animals, you

have that degree of empathy and you don't

538

:

want anything bad to happen to them.

539

:

And then all of a sudden you're in

a case where all these animals are

540

:

either starved or beaten or injured.

541

:

And it does become very difficult,

very emotionally taxing.

542

:

So that's how, that's

kind of how I see it.

543

:

Mark Randell: It's, it's one of the

areas that I've first noticed really

544

:

transiting from policing into animal

welfare, the animal welfare world is

545

:

that police officers, uh, are good

at looking at things evidentially.

546

:

Animal welfare representatives

tend to be a little bit more

547

:

emotional about what's happening.

548

:

And I get where that comes from.

549

:

And sometimes that can

cause a conflict between.

550

:

when handing evidence over of a case

where somebody who is emotionally attached

551

:

cannot understand why a case doesn't

go to court, why there's not successful

552

:

prosecution, why something goes wrong.

553

:

And therefore I think it's It's

incumbent on both sides to really

554

:

understand, uh, how the other operates.

555

:

So, you know, I, I, I have trained a lot

of animal welfare groups around the world

556

:

on, on, you know, the laws of evidence,

that, that this is how you need to present

557

:

your evidence if you're going to take it

to the, to the court, to a police officer.

558

:

You know, if you go, Shouting and,

and thumping your fist and swearing

559

:

and calling our police officers

corrupt and they don't deal with

560

:

the case properly, you're probably

not going to get a good outcome.

561

:

Likewise, if you're a police officer

and you think of anybody who deals

562

:

with animals as an extremist or

radical or, or has this warped view

563

:

of life, then you're not going to

be a very good protector of society.

564

:

And so, you kind of need to work together

and where you've got, in Greece where I

565

:

did quite a lot of work, You know, they'll

form groups where they've got, you know,

566

:

local police officers, local veterinarians

and animal groups working in partnership.

567

:

And as a result, they keep their community

safer because they deal with animal cases,

568

:

human cases, they communicate with each

other, they understand each other's needs.

569

:

And if you're working in a small

town, a small area, that can work.

570

:

Nationally, you'll see they

need national arrangements to be

571

:

able to understand each other.

572

:

But at the end of the day, we all

want to achieve the same thing.

573

:

You know, we all want to make

society safer for people and animals.

574

:

That's where it comes from.

575

:

Dr. G: Here, here in Ohio, um,

animal control officers and humane

576

:

officers are the ones that primarily

investigate the animal crimes.

577

:

And I just recently did a,

did a class, an online class.

578

:

Because, as a forensic veterinarian, I

receive requests from these animal control

579

:

officers to help them investigate things,

and many times after the fact, so already

580

:

they have gathered the evidence, they

have done everything, but there is so

581

:

much emotional uh, Um, so much emotion

in the case that when they walk into a

582

:

animal crime scene, their first concern

is I got to get this dog out of here.

583

:

I got to get this cat out of here.

584

:

So they go in and they don't

understand evidence, right?

585

:

Animals as evidence of a crime.

586

:

So we had to to discuss proper Procedure

in gathering evidence, you walk into

587

:

the house, you see an animal that

is in pain and it's in discomfort.

588

:

You don't just go running

and take it out, right?

589

:

We have to stop.

590

:

We have to think about it.

591

:

We have to take pictures.

592

:

We have to document because as much

as we want to prosecute the people,

593

:

the, the perpetrators of these crimes.

594

:

We are just blowing the case if we

are mismanaging the, the evidence and

595

:

in the end, if we don't manage the

evidence properly, what can potentially

596

:

happen is that animal that we just

rescued goes back to that person.

597

:

So, part of what you do is doing this

evaluation and then assessment and

598

:

then investigation and prosecution.

599

:

So how does your work do?

600

:

Like, can you walk us through

through some of the cases that

601

:

you have that you have done?

602

:

Mark Randell: You know, most of my case

is now about training, because, uh, going

603

:

from policing cases, which may be about

human trafficking, or I don't know, bomb

604

:

factories, so that would be the kind

of cases that I was dealing with within

605

:

policing, um, which some of them would

take years to be able to investigate.

606

:

A lot of the cases that I started doing

when I was in, um, when I came out

607

:

of policing was actually for media,

rather than for Um, for prosecutions,

608

:

because the standard of proof is

different and, and what your objective

609

:

is, is, uh, what your objectives are

looking for is slightly different.

610

:

So you may well not be looking for

prosecution, but what you're looking for

611

:

is substantive evidence to be able to show

that case on a, on like a documentary.

612

:

So I did a dogfighting case, particularly

with the BBC, so we had to work with

613

:

the, documentary case, um, where

we're looking at global dog fighting.

614

:

So, um, with that one, we had to

make sure that, um, you know, we'd

615

:

evidence that the links between, um,

the different countries, the different

616

:

individuals would actually proven

who they were through social media.

617

:

Um, so that the case was watertight

from a, from a legal perspective

618

:

to be able shown on air.

619

:

Prosecutions actually through the

court system is something I, I

620

:

haven't done now for a number of

years because I've been busy working

621

:

in other countries training about it.

622

:

Um, and it varies from country to country

but essentially what you're saying there

623

:

about crime scenes is where I, I mostly

did, did my training work in that.

624

:

If it's a, if it's a multiple homicide,

clearly you're going to treat a crime

625

:

scene, you're going to throw everything at

the crime scene, you're going to, um, look

626

:

at the videos, recording it correctly,

um, seizing everything there, who are

627

:

your witnesses, you know, um, who are

your key witnesses, who are your suspects,

628

:

but actually a minor animal, a minor, uh,

animal crime, and I use that term loosely.

629

:

Requires the same, exactly

the same processes.

630

:

So you still need to be looking

at what is your crime scene?

631

:

How are you going to

safeguard your crime scene?

632

:

Bear in mind the resources that you've

got, you know, you're not going to

633

:

have a whole CSI team out there.

634

:

You're not going to have, you may

well just have a, might be pouring

635

:

a rain and you might have a.

636

:

you know, a piece of a plastic box

that you can cover the animal with.

637

:

So be pragmatic about what you've got.

638

:

Um, uh, one example we had, I was training

in, um, uh, the municipal headquarters of

639

:

the local government in Kiev, in Ukraine,

and we were doing animal crime scenes.

640

:

And, uh, We had designated this

thoroughfare as an animal crime scene and

641

:

we blocked off all the senior officials

in Kiev and Ukraine from walking down

642

:

this corridor because we'd got a stuffed

animal in the middle of the, in the

643

:

middle of the, the, uh, , the room.

644

:

Um, and it was fascinating to see these

really high ranking, uh, police officers

645

:

and government officials having to walk

all the way around the room just to be

646

:

able to protect that animal crime scene.

647

:

The training that I really give is

based upon transmitting what I've

648

:

done within human crime scenes,

whether it's a bomb factory or a human

649

:

trafficking crime scene, onto the

animal world and giving it exactly

650

:

the same level of consideration and

thought processes, albeit realistically,

651

:

you may or may not have access to

the same resources, so you've got to

652

:

think a little bit more pragmatically.

653

:

Does that help?

654

:

It's a little bit of a

roundabout answer there.

655

:

Dr. G: Yeah, no, no, absolutely.

656

:

Um, I, I recently, well, I'm still in

progress of doing, uh, taking education

657

:

through University of Florida and Forensic

Sciences, because I think that there

658

:

is a little bit of a disconnect within,

between the capabilities in human crimes

659

:

and the capabilities in animal crimes.

660

:

So part of what What I hope to gain from

that education is kind of how we can use

661

:

some of the knowledge that we have that

we use in human criminology into animals.

662

:

So I have used, for instance, entomology.

663

:

I've used insects to try to determine

time of death, just to prove timelines

664

:

that A suspect is given us to show that.

665

:

No, you said that this animal has

only been dead for a few days.

666

:

This animal actually based on insects

based on all the other information

667

:

has been dead for for a lot longer.

668

:

So I think that there's definitely

room as we understand the importance

669

:

of the link and we take animal crimes

more seriously, we can start utilizing

670

:

some of the knowledge that we have

for human crimes into animal crimes.

671

:

Mark Randell: I've got a friend who

is the professor at the University of

672

:

Bedford Forensic Department in the UK.

673

:

And they are doing some excellent

work, so I may need to put you in

674

:

contact with each other to talk to,

uh, to Samantha about this, because

675

:

she's got some, some excellent ideas.

676

:

It's beyond, it's beyond my skill level.

677

:

Um, but you talk about entomology, I mean,

I'm blown away with what they're doing in

678

:

relation to animal crime scenes, so I'll

definitely put you in contact with her.

679

:

Dr. G: That would be,

that would be amazing.

680

:

I'm always looking to learn more

because there's just so much

681

:

opportunity out there to do better.

682

:

And I mean, it's just, you

know, we get too caught up on,

683

:

well, it costs too much money.

684

:

Well, but there are ways of, of

getting, of getting things done and

685

:

some of these resources already exist.

686

:

So it's just kind of figuring out

how to, how to source the existing

687

:

resources so that we can help both.

688

:

Mark Randell: Yeah.

689

:

I mean, one of the big.

690

:

One of the big statements that always

come back to me is that, you know,

691

:

we don't have the resources for this.

692

:

We don't have the money for this.

693

:

The approach is the same as I used

to take when, , when I worked in the

694

:

intelligence field, there was always a,

um, a willingness to try and, or a desire

695

:

to try and cut intelligence resources.

696

:

When actually, when you've got, when

you're struggling for money, when, when,

697

:

uh, you know, everybody's struggling

for money right now, whether it's

698

:

at national or, or, or local level.

699

:

You want intelligence because you

want people to highlight where

700

:

the subjects are at that point.

701

:

You don't want to be cutting what,

those areas that are actually

702

:

talking about crime prevention.

703

:

And tackling animal abuse

properly is never extra work.

704

:

It's, it's an opportunity to be able to

reduce the amount of crime, which actually

705

:

is going to save money in the long run.

706

:

There was, um, another case I

can talk about in terms of the

707

:

link, uh, in, in Ukraine again.

708

:

Uh, in 2007, there were

three young men who...

709

:

Uh, started capturing and killing

street animals, tying them up, um,

710

:

and, and hanging them from trees.

711

:

Um, and very, very quickly they

transitioned into vulnerable adults

712

:

and they started committing them using

the same mode of soprandi as they were.

713

:

And they committed 21 murders, no

attempted murders over a period

714

:

of a few months in that time.

715

:

Um, when that was investigated, I

understand it took 2, 000 police

716

:

officers to investigate it.

717

:

That's a lot of policing resource.

718

:

Um, I mean, it's horrific that,

you know, 21 murders anyway.

719

:

But if we had caught, or if those

youngsters had been caught early,

720

:

we'd have saved, all that money

would have been saved later on.

721

:

So crime prevention is, is critical

in understanding the role that

722

:

animals play within families and

relationships and communities.

723

:

It is really important to turn to

crime prevention and costing less for

724

:

the country and in the first place.

725

:

Dr. G: So you've been discussing

about your work with Ukraine.

726

:

So how has that changed?

727

:

How, what was your work

with Ukraine before and now?

728

:

Um, I imagine that the struggles

and the needs of the animals and the

729

:

people have changed since the war.

730

:

Mark Randell: The Nature Watch Foundation

started working in Ukraine, uh, in

731

:

1994, three years after Ukraine's

independence from the Soviet Union.

732

:

And, um, that was mainly about animal,

um, That stray animal management, I

733

:

guess, is where it came from, but also

looking at the zoo and other areas.

734

:

I began working in 2018 there when I

was training police officers and animal

735

:

groups um, about taking animal crime

seriously, responsible dog ownership, you

736

:

know, looking at legislation and working

with animal groups and municipalities.

737

:

And before the war, I managed to get

to sort of 13 cities from Lviv in

738

:

the west out to Kharkiv in the east,

where I would spend a day with police

739

:

officers going through animal crime

scenes and talking to them about

740

:

the relevance of dealing with it.

741

:

But I was also talking to police

officers about the importance of

742

:

Within, um, public relations, within

their community, and taking animal

743

:

welfare and animal crime seriously.

744

:

And, you know, when they rescue and when

the, because the patrol police officers

745

:

were there were coming from a time of

militia of the former Soviet Union,

746

:

and it's being a modern police service.

747

:

And it was really important that they

were seen as approachable individuals.

748

:

They've got a really school,

good school program there, so.

749

:

Leaning with police officers to say

that, you know, when you're rescuing

750

:

animals, when you, when you save them,

tell the public what you're doing, you

751

:

know, explain why it's important to save

them, because then you'll be seen as a

752

:

far more approachable police service.

753

:

Um, you'll be seen as one that, if you're

a victim of, you know, sexual abuse,

754

:

domestic abuse, any kind of crime, You're

far more likely to report that to a police

755

:

officer that you've seen has got empathy,

some kind of compassion, and it builds

756

:

the credibility of the police service.

757

:

And the long term effect is

that, you know, overall crime

758

:

and overall violence will reduce.

759

:

So that's where I was.

760

:

from 2018 until 2022 when the, when

this section of the war started,

761

:

um, and obviously massively changed.

762

:

Um, uh, it's a bit difficult to know

where to start really, but stray animal

763

:

management has been horrendous because,

you know, shelters have been destroyed.

764

:

Shelters have been blown apart.

765

:

People have left dogs.

766

:

They've abandoned dogs.

767

:

Dogs have been into the streets.

768

:

Cat population has grown out of control.

769

:

Um, initially zoos were being hit,

um, and animals were, were escaping.

770

:

Um, stray animal management was

a huge issue and there's also a

771

:

bit of a rabies issue in Ukraine.

772

:

Um, so we've been working and it's

again, it has to be in partnership.

773

:

So working with groups like

Eurogroup for animals and others

774

:

to be able to develop a strategy.

775

:

And then, um, that, that.

776

:

We'll spay and neuter, we'll keep on

top of the spay neuter work so that the

777

:

populations don't go out of control.

778

:

I mean, they are out of control, but

there is pro, there are programs in

779

:

place, but there's also getting aid

out there for the rescues, you know,

780

:

shipping, uh, food, medical supplies

out from Poland and Romania to Ukraine.

781

:

So it's been a, um, a huge project and my

training or the police training, you know,

782

:

I haven't been able to train the police

because I've been busy doing other things,

783

:

but it's carried on, you know, because

I was working with lawyers, the lawyers

784

:

are now carrying on with the training.

785

:

So we need to keep that going.

786

:

And I think that one of the things

that people potentially would have

787

:

seen certainly in the early days

of the war is images of Ukrainians

788

:

looking after their animals, caring

for their animals, recognizing that.

789

:

In times of war, in times of stress, the

animal human bond is critically important,

790

:

um, that they are a member of the family,

uh, and hopefully the Nature Watch

791

:

Foundation program has been a little part

of that in terms of looking at general

792

:

animal welfare throughout the country.

793

:

Dr. G: So what is, what is the,

uh, Nature Watch Foundation as

794

:

far as the missions and goals?

795

:

Mark Randell: So the main thing is about

advancing animal welfare around the world.

796

:

So Nature Watch Foundation,

um, started just over 30 years

797

:

ago, a small animal charity.

798

:

So that's a 501 in the US and it's,

um, based in, in the west part of the

799

:

UK, but it's responsible for puppy

farming, for campaigning against animal

800

:

testing, um, for wildlife crimes and

a number of other areas, but it's

801

:

also responsible for World Animal Day,

um, and looks after World Animal Day.

802

:

Uh, 4th of October every year

for those that don't know.

803

:

Um, exciting new website

this year, worldanimalday.

804

:

org, where you can go on there and

you can upload all the different

805

:

things that you've been doing for

World Animal Day, learn from other

806

:

people around the, uh, the world.

807

:

I know there's an organization doing,

uh, stray animal management in Greece.

808

:

They've done a big project on there.

809

:

Um, so if you want to learn about

how to manage stray animals in your

810

:

particular area, have a look at that.

811

:

So World Animal Day is a really, really

big thing every year, obviously, around,

812

:

uh, all different countries of the world,

and Nature Watch Foundation manages that.

813

:

So, big, diverse portfolio, um, there's

only about half a dozen to ten people

814

:

working for Nature Watch Foundation,

but it does, uh, it does great work.

815

:

And I'm proud to have been a part

of it for the last few years.

816

:

Dr. G: One of the things that I saw

on the website was about the concept

817

:

of animals as sentient beings and

Here we have that that issue where

818

:

animals are property and I don't our

animals consider property in the UK

819

:

Mark Randell: it varies I mean the

Sentience legislation passed last

820

:

year, and in theory it's supposed to,

um, it's supposed to permeate through

821

:

all types of legislation, but that's

still very early days at the moment.

822

:

I mean, cats, for example, are

still part of criminal, you

823

:

know, part of property, so.

824

:

Uh, you hurt a cat, you're more likely

to prosecute you for criminal damage than

825

:

you are for abuse because it's property.

826

:

So, yeah, property is still an issue.

827

:

I mean, it's, it's, in theory, sentience

is, it's, it's supposed to go through

828

:

all of our legislation, but, uh, I think

it'll take a while before that changes,

829

:

but again, it's a good bit of progress.

830

:

Dr. G: Yeah, no, it's, it's amazing.

831

:

Progress because we see, we see

issues here where, uh, yeah,

832

:

as you said, if an animal gets

injured, then it's just property.

833

:

It's what's the value of your property.

834

:

And then that's how it's

managed in the courts.

835

:

Um, and it's interesting to, to look at it

from a concept of property when there are.

836

:

Laws against crimes against animals.

837

:

So it's illegal to injure an animal

to commit cruelty against animals.

838

:

But then if something happens, as

far as the pet owner is concerned,

839

:

it's just a piece of property.

840

:

One of the things that we had been

discussing in, in my classes, it's

841

:

about the concept of living property.

842

:

And kind of.

843

:

You know, the, the idea between welfare

and rights, um, just because a lot of

844

:

people, like we want to see rights for

animals, but perhaps the concept of

845

:

welfare, it's a little bit easier to,

to get people to, to follow or buy into.

846

:

Mark Randell: Yeah, I think

Spain this, this, uh, last month,

847

:

potentially the new legislation came

out in Spain, which is quite good in

848

:

terms of animal sentience as well.

849

:

Um, there's some good progress there.

850

:

I mean, the difficulty with

the Spanish legislation is it

851

:

doesn't apply to hunting dogs.

852

:

It doesn't apply to bullfighting.

853

:

Um, so there's quite often

exemptions in Europe with the

854

:

sentence legislation in terms of...

855

:

Exclusions of, um, animals for

potentially political reasons, maybe.

856

:

Um, so, it's good, but it should

be, and then, of course, you've

857

:

got, you know, animal testing,

you've got, um, farm animals.

858

:

As soon as you start moving into

other areas, it becomes a lot more

859

:

complex in terms of sentience.

860

:

Um, a lot of those, um, uh, debates,

again, are perhaps too complex for me.

861

:

I've, you know, I'm an old detective.

862

:

I tend to look at things this way,

but it certainly does open some

863

:

doors and some thinking in terms of.

864

:

where we should be with all animals

and not just companion animals.

865

:

Dr. G: And you talk

about, uh, animal farming.

866

:

I am assuming that that's basically

what we consider puppy mills.

867

:

Would that be correct, right?

868

:

Like just a overbreeding of

869

:

Mark Randell: animals?

870

:

Yeah, um, absolutely.

871

:

I mean, there are, um, puppy mills in

Eastern Europe, puppy mills in Ireland,

872

:

puppy mills in Wales, um, feeding a

market of effectively designer dogs.

873

:

Um, one of the things that Nature

Watch Foundation exposed in the

874

:

last year was, um, canine fertility

clinics where, uh, In the kitchen,

875

:

effectively, people were building

designer dogs using fertility clinics.

876

:

Um, they weren't veterinarians,

they were lay individuals.

877

:

And the Edgewatch Foundation

did some great work on that.

878

:

Um, and at the end of it, there's

a desire for designer dogs.

879

:

And that's when there's a market, if

you look at the narcotic market or

880

:

anything, it's all the fur industry.

881

:

If there is a market for it, criminals

and certain individuals will exploit

882

:

that and will look to feed it.

883

:

So, you know, French Bulldogs as a

case in point at the moment, uh, they

884

:

were, I don't know what you'd know,

the pricing at the moment, 10, 000,

885

:

10, know, I mean, crazy money that

people will pay for a dog that they've

886

:

seen and influenced to use on social

media, that they want that particular

887

:

dog, they want it now, they don't

want to spend some time looking at...

888

:

The best dog and they won't go

to the rescue, which is where

889

:

they should be going to get a

dog, but that's another point.

890

:

Um, they want that dog there and then,

um, you know, people will spend a

891

:

lot more time looking for, you know,

what TV they're going to have, which

892

:

phone they're going to have than they

will, which dog they're going to have

893

:

and they're going to, you know, most

phones are on a three year contract.

894

:

Dogs are on a 10 to 14 year contract.

895

:

You're spending a lot more time

looking for a, uh, your dog than

896

:

you should, which, you know.

897

:

Which level of iPhone you want, really.

898

:

Dr. G: And one, one, uh, wording

that I saw on the website that I

899

:

really, really liked is that it,

you guys called it greed breeding.

900

:

Yeah.

901

:

Yeah.

902

:

So, uh, go ahead.

903

:

Mark Randell: No, I mean, it is, it's

not my campaign, the greed breeding one.

904

:

I think it's a great terminology.

905

:

It's this concept of...

906

:

Of, of wanting, wanting something

designer rather than a dog that

907

:

actually needs some love and

companionship and looking after really.

908

:

Dr. G: Yeah, the problem that we're

seeing here with the designer breeds is

909

:

a lot of the backyard breeders, right?

910

:

The people that are just taking it,

as you said, like just at home, taking

911

:

it into their own hands, creating

these breeds and then selling them

912

:

to consumers that just want to just,

they just hear what they want to hear.

913

:

It's like, okay, this

is what I'm looking for.

914

:

Oh yeah, this is what I have.

915

:

I mean, a doodle is a doodle.

916

:

All these poodle mixes kind of look

the same when they're puppies and

917

:

people are getting them thinking

that they're something and it's

918

:

just in the, in the end, a crossbred

with a very high, uh, price tag.

919

:

Right.

920

:

It's just consumer, I

guess, consumer fraud.

921

:

Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean, I was in

the US a couple of years ago, actually,

922

:

and I saw, uh, uh, there were two

trucks pulled up in a lay by, and,

923

:

um, someone got a dog out, you know, a

puppy out the back of one, and, uh, you

924

:

know exactly what's happening there.

925

:

And it's, it's so frustrating that, that

we wouldn't do that with something else.

926

:

You, you wouldn't have any other...

927

:

I mean, they're not property

anyway, but even if they were

928

:

property animals, that's not how you

should be buying property, is it?

929

:

You know there's something wrong if

that's how you're getting your animal.

930

:

And I kind of understand there's also a

situation where, once you've gone past

931

:

that point, and you kind of know that

it's come from a puppy farm or a puppy

932

:

mill, that you then think, oh well,

at least I'm helping it, at least I'm

933

:

rescuing it, but actually, you know...

934

:

You're part of the problem.

935

:

I mean, I did some, a little bit of

work earlier this year with um, um,

936

:

there's a, there's a really good film

called Slay, uh, which is about the

937

:

fur trade, um, it's a documentary

which is available on, on line, and

938

:

it's really good to have a look at.

939

:

Um, I'm not into fashion myself

particularly, but there's um, one of the

940

:

phrases in there which is quite good, and

there was a, a model in there saying that.

941

:

You know, your next purchase is the most

important one and it's something which

942

:

resonated with me is that if you've

already bought a designer dog, if you've

943

:

already been down that route, then okay,

love it, look after it, care for it, get

944

:

a veterinarian, everything you need to do.

945

:

The next time you get a dog,

think slightly differently.

946

:

I don't, we don't want to

prejudge those that have.

947

:

either done it because they didn't

understand or because they did intend

948

:

to do a good job or You know, they've

now learned that dog's from a puppy

949

:

mill I don't think we should be

judging anybody who's in that route

950

:

But next time you buy a dog just

think slightly differently about it.

951

:

Look, um, uh, because They won't exist

puppy mills puppy farms won't exist if

952

:

you stop that market Because that they

can't they're going to do something else.

953

:

They're criminals.

954

:

They they find opportunities

if there's weak legislation

955

:

if there's weak enforcement.

956

:

If there's a market,

they'll go down that route.

957

:

And if there isn't, they'll go and ship, I

don't know, illegal vapes or something or

958

:

other they'll get from somewhere because

they don't care what the product is.

959

:

They just want to make money out of it.

960

:

Dr. G: Right.

961

:

If you decrease the demand, you have to

by, by extent, decrease the supply, right?

962

:

The supply dwindles.

963

:

Um, yesterday.

964

:

One of the rescues that, that we

work with, I, I run a spay neuter

965

:

clinic and we were at a shelter doing

surgeries and there was this man that

966

:

surrendered five dogs up to the shelter

because he said that nobody was buying.

967

:

So he couldn't get rid of them.

968

:

So he just gave them to the shelter.

969

:

And, you know, it, it's sad for those dogs

to end up in a shelter because they're

970

:

kind of unwanted, but that's what, that's

what ends up happening, perhaps this man

971

:

is going to not breed or not breed as

much because the demand is not as high.

972

:

So we, as consumers, we have

the power to control all these

973

:

issues with, with puppy mills.

974

:

I know that one of the

concerns that rescues that.

975

:

That get animals from these puppy

mills is that if they do something

976

:

to complain to the, uh, here, the,

the USDA is in charge of managing the

977

:

high volume breeders that if you may

complain, nothing's going to happen.

978

:

Um, and, and sadly, it is true.

979

:

There's a lot of investigations that

they will find that some of these.

980

:

high volume breeders are breaking

the law and not taking proper

981

:

care of these animals, but

nothing really ends up happening.

982

:

Is that what your experience is as well?

983

:

Or are high volume breeders, when

they, when they break the law in

984

:

animal welfare or animal care,

does, does something happen to them?

985

:

Mark Randell: I'm sure that those that

that are charged with investigating

986

:

puppy mills, puppy farms in, in the

UK are very competent investigators.

987

:

I think that the difficulty

that I have from an ex policing

988

:

background is that we shouldn't

be treating them any differently.

989

:

If you've got serious and

organized crime, you need to

990

:

tackle it at all different levels.

991

:

You need to be taken out.

992

:

There's almost a model that you put

in place to dismantle organized crime.

993

:

Um, And that's the same

from country to country.

994

:

Well, when you're tackling a puppy mill,

you just need to use the same model.

995

:

And you've got to deal with

every level professionally.

996

:

So, you know, that's reducing demand,

that's cutting off the supply chains,

997

:

that's looking at the routes that

it's getting to market, it's looking

998

:

at the finances, the tax evasion, the

other crimes that are connected to it.

999

:

Um, it's, uh, uh, the information

campaigns, it's, there's a number of

:

01:01:26,989 --> 01:01:31,539

different things that you need to target,

um, to be able to take down whatever

:

01:01:31,539 --> 01:01:34,649

organized crime it is, and puppy farms

should fit into that same category.

:

01:01:35,649 --> 01:01:39,329

That's the same country to country, it's

the same area to area, but we still kind

:

01:01:39,329 --> 01:01:41,149

of don't learn from that, I don't think.

:

01:01:41,549 --> 01:01:41,939

And.

:

01:01:42,959 --> 01:01:44,489

Different people are responsible.

:

01:01:44,489 --> 01:01:46,679

I mean, we've got so many

different agencies in the UK

:

01:01:46,679 --> 01:01:48,119

responsible for tackling things.

:

01:01:48,159 --> 01:01:53,319

I mean, to not make mistakes, you've got

to have an incredibly good information

:

01:01:53,319 --> 01:01:58,519

exchange flow, and that's quite often

where things go wrong, when you're not

:

01:01:58,539 --> 01:02:02,879

sharing information, you're not working

in partnership, you're not, uh, you're

:

01:02:02,889 --> 01:02:04,869

not working together to tackle things.

:

01:02:04,949 --> 01:02:08,579

That's changed a lot over my policing

career, and then latterly, really,

:

01:02:08,579 --> 01:02:13,649

in terms of understanding that Uh,

if you really want to tackle crime,

:

01:02:13,649 --> 01:02:14,839

you have to work on it together.

:

01:02:14,919 --> 01:02:18,709

And that's not just police officers,

that's members of the public, it's

:

01:02:18,719 --> 01:02:23,629

local organizations, governments,

um, you know, tax officers.

:

01:02:23,629 --> 01:02:27,259

It's just everybody needs to work together

to achieve the same goals, really.

:

01:02:28,949 --> 01:02:29,249

To me,

:

01:02:29,249 --> 01:02:31,269

Dr. G: it's frustrating because I see...

:

01:02:32,419 --> 01:02:36,839

I see similarities between animal

hoarders and puppy mills, right?

:

01:02:36,839 --> 01:02:40,529

They're both not giving them enough

resources, not giving enough cares,

:

01:02:40,829 --> 01:02:45,489

but then animal hoarding is a crime

and puppy mills is much more different.

:

01:02:45,489 --> 01:02:50,739

And to me, the, the main difference

between the two is that animal

:

01:02:51,159 --> 01:02:55,409

hoarders are not supplying, are not

improving the finances or the economics

:

01:02:55,619 --> 01:02:58,489

of the, of the area of the town.

:

01:02:58,499 --> 01:03:00,389

So as soon as we.

:

01:03:02,189 --> 01:03:10,319

put more, put more weight into the animal

welfare and less into the money that these

:

01:03:10,409 --> 01:03:13,989

puppy farms are creating, then perhaps

we're going to be able to move forward.

:

01:03:14,845 --> 01:03:16,825

Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean,

animal hoarding is a sort of

:

01:03:16,825 --> 01:03:18,065

a whole other issue, really.

:

01:03:18,065 --> 01:03:21,155

I know, certainly in Eastern Europe,

there's a very fine line between

:

01:03:21,705 --> 01:03:23,525

animal hoarders and animal rescues.

:

01:03:24,055 --> 01:03:29,365

Um, I went to a training session, uh, out

there and it was like talking to people

:

01:03:29,595 --> 01:03:30,925

about how many animals they've got.

:

01:03:30,925 --> 01:03:33,865

And lady said, I've got 236 dogs.

:

01:03:33,865 --> 01:03:35,435

And I'm okay.

:

01:03:35,665 --> 01:03:36,705

I think you've got a problem.

:

01:03:36,745 --> 01:03:38,505

I don't think you've got an animal rescue.

:

01:03:38,505 --> 01:03:39,345

I think you've got an issue.

:

01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:46,120

Um, so, um, there is, there is a fine

line there, and it, it, when, when

:

01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:49,980

you're in, uh, I'd say poorer countries,

those with, with lower animal welfare

:

01:03:49,980 --> 01:03:56,880

standards, the animal hoarding, animal

rescue becomes a very, very fine line.

:

01:03:57,850 --> 01:04:00,220

Dr. G: Yes, I was, uh, recently in Mexico.

:

01:04:00,580 --> 01:04:03,140

And there's a huge overpopulation problem.

:

01:04:03,150 --> 01:04:07,640

Plus there's a lot of problem with

like the, uh, street dogs, something

:

01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,390

that here we don't see because

dogs in the street get picked up,

:

01:04:11,710 --> 01:04:14,110

but there it's normal to see it.

:

01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:20,140

And I saw, I saw many of the people

that were coming to these talks that I

:

01:04:20,140 --> 01:04:23,900

was part of complaining about how they

have to have all these animals because

:

01:04:23,910 --> 01:04:25,090

the government is not helping them.

:

01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,860

Um, so it's not seeing the damage.

:

01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:30,730

that they're causing to the animal.

:

01:04:30,740 --> 01:04:33,910

Sometimes it's better to leave a

cat outside than bring it into a

:

01:04:33,910 --> 01:04:36,170

home that is overcrowded, right?

:

01:04:37,230 --> 01:04:37,750

Mark Randell: Absolutely.

:

01:04:37,750 --> 01:04:40,810

And as I said, we did go to

the World Animal Day website.

:

01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:46,825

There's a good article from, um,

from the group, the work that's

:

01:04:46,825 --> 01:04:49,045

going on in Greece at the moment,

which is really, really good.

:

01:04:49,045 --> 01:04:51,065

I mean, Greece had a real, real problem.

:

01:04:51,515 --> 01:04:54,245

I still got a big problem, but

there's a good organization

:

01:04:54,255 --> 01:04:55,495

working through that at the moment.

:

01:04:55,535 --> 01:04:57,735

And that articulates that on the website.

:

01:04:57,735 --> 01:05:03,535

So, I mean, Greece is, uh, there's

a lot of issues from, um, dogs being

:

01:05:03,535 --> 01:05:09,535

chained up 24 hours a day to donkeys

being overused in, um, the tourist

:

01:05:09,535 --> 01:05:12,125

industry to stray cats, stray dogs.

:

01:05:13,065 --> 01:05:18,215

Um, huge issue, but they now have the

toughest jail terms for animal abusers in,

:

01:05:18,295 --> 01:05:23,505

in Europe now, they have 10 year maximum

jail sentences, and I think it's a 30, 000

:

01:05:23,555 --> 01:05:27,835

fine as well, which, um, hopefully will

be starting to have a bit of an impact.

:

01:05:27,865 --> 01:05:30,795

So, you know, again, there's progress

in all these different areas.

:

01:05:32,189 --> 01:05:33,629

Dr. G: This has been

extremely educational.

:

01:05:33,629 --> 01:05:36,799

I'm hoping that our listeners

have gathered a lot of information

:

01:05:36,799 --> 01:05:40,199

and learned about animal crimes

and the link and everything else.

:

01:05:40,549 --> 01:05:45,439

So, can you share, uh, let's start

with individuals that are in, like,

:

01:05:45,439 --> 01:05:49,009

animal control officers, humane

officers, any animal crimes, how can

:

01:05:49,009 --> 01:05:53,049

they find out about the educational

programs that you, that you do?

:

01:05:53,942 --> 01:05:55,802

Mark Randell: I mean, obviously

look at, naturewatch.

:

01:05:55,802 --> 01:05:58,872

org, which will give you quite a

lot of information, quite a lot of

:

01:05:58,872 --> 01:06:05,782

links on, um, the protect animals,

protect people, uh, section.

:

01:06:05,782 --> 01:06:10,162

There's a reference library, which

takes you to all sorts of research on

:

01:06:10,162 --> 01:06:13,062

the link from anywhere, all different

countries around the world, because

:

01:06:13,062 --> 01:06:14,482

we wanted to put everything on there.

:

01:06:15,252 --> 01:06:15,892

So that's quite.

:

01:06:16,327 --> 01:06:18,077

quite a good forum.

:

01:06:19,117 --> 01:06:23,307

If you want to look at how the foster

systems work, um, for those involved,

:

01:06:23,377 --> 01:06:27,427

uh, potentially in, in domestic

abuse and abuse, have a look at,

:

01:06:27,587 --> 01:06:30,817

um, Dogs Trust and Cats Protection.

:

01:06:31,237 --> 01:06:34,677

They're different projects that

they have, uh, for foster care.

:

01:06:35,427 --> 01:06:39,557

And what I would put a bit of a rider

in there is we know that globally

:

01:06:39,557 --> 01:06:44,922

one in four people I've been involved

between the ages between 16 and 74,

:

01:06:44,942 --> 01:06:46,382

I've been caught up in domestic abuse.

:

01:06:46,392 --> 01:06:51,092

So it's highly likely that a number

of your listeners would either be, uh,

:

01:06:51,112 --> 01:06:55,562

have been in a domestic abuse situation

or are going to be in a domestic

:

01:06:55,562 --> 01:06:59,462

abuse situation or may not even know

they're in a domestic abuse situation.

:

01:06:59,952 --> 01:07:03,982

Um, so go to the various

helplines and the domestic.

:

01:07:04,512 --> 01:07:07,942

uh, abuse organizations put out

either nationally or locally

:

01:07:07,952 --> 01:07:09,122

and find information out.

:

01:07:09,122 --> 01:07:15,252

But just be a little bit careful in terms

of If you're in a situation where there

:

01:07:15,252 --> 01:07:18,962

is uh, control over what you're allowed

to do, just be a little bit careful

:

01:07:18,962 --> 01:07:23,322

on your um, on your internet history

searching and everything, but there's

:

01:07:23,332 --> 01:07:25,122

some good information out there now.

:

01:07:25,402 --> 01:07:30,032

Um, go to different police

websites, there's a, there's

:

01:07:30,032 --> 01:07:30,802

a really good, the best.

:

01:07:31,172 --> 01:07:33,252

police website in the

world that I've seen.

:

01:07:33,252 --> 01:07:36,362

If you go to Edmonton Police in

Canada and have a look at their

:

01:07:36,362 --> 01:07:39,812

website, they have really, really

good information on the link between

:

01:07:39,812 --> 01:07:41,852

animal abuse and domestic violence.

:

01:07:41,862 --> 01:07:43,152

So have a look at that one.

:

01:07:43,152 --> 01:07:44,682

There's some good downloadables on that.

:

01:07:47,952 --> 01:07:51,432

So just, just be aware of what the

signs are, really, and, and try and,

:

01:07:51,562 --> 01:07:55,721

for me, try and, start trying to see

animal abuse as, as an opportunity to

:

01:07:55,721 --> 01:07:59,872

prevent other crimes, as a preventative

tool, rather than extra work.

:

01:08:00,232 --> 01:08:03,632

Try and put it into everyday

public protection strategy, really.

:

01:08:03,772 --> 01:08:04,702

That's what I'd like to see.

:

01:08:06,522 --> 01:08:07,072

Dr. G: Fantastic.

:

01:08:07,102 --> 01:08:09,362

Well, again, thank you for your

time, and thank you for sharing

:

01:08:09,362 --> 01:08:11,062

all your wealth of information.

:

01:08:11,572 --> 01:08:15,522

And, uh, to everybody that's

listening, uh, thank you for spending

:

01:08:15,542 --> 01:08:18,261

the time listening to us, and

thank you for caring about animals.

Links

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube