Welcome to episode 71 of kids with big emotions podcast formerly known as Calm Nights, strong days.

I am your host Andy Clark.

Today we are diving into punishment.

And how punishment isn't

necessarily the answer. When it comes to neurodiverse kids. And we're going to start really rethinking discipline for these

emotional kids, these neurodiverse kids, kids with anxiety kids with outbursts.

kids who say things and upset others, kids who don't

appear to be listening when somebody's asking them to do things, or they don't follow what somebody is asking them to do. We're going to start talking about how

maybe punishment is not well, not maybe definitely. Punishment is not the answer for this.

and

you definitely

are

able to disagree. I would love to hear your thoughts about this. You can

message me. My email is in the show notes as well as I have, where you can book a 30 min. Call with me in order to chat this through with me.

and really see, I would love to hear your side. If you don't agree with what I have to say. I would also hear if you do agree with this

and how it's working for you.

So let's dive in.

So

where is this coming from? It's been actually a couple of things that have happened in the past week.

One is, I am diving deep into this executive functioning course with a friend of mine

whose child is neurodiverse. They're autistic

and

executive. Functioning is something. I had no idea what it was

when I started. I kept hearing this word in a lot of the neurodiverse. 2 E gifted groups.

I'm like what the heck is executive function, this just it never made sense to me

until I started diving into what it is

so executive functioning are these skills where we look at them.

we can describe executive functioning as being like the the manager or the CEO of

the way that we execute things.

So.

for example.

at the way that we

take directions, the way that we execute plans, the way that we control our emotions and our moods.

the way that we're actually able to read and write, the way that we're actually able to process information. Our brain. We have a manager of that, and the manager is directing all of this during the day.

and every action and motion that we take.

and when we start to

struggle. In this everything becomes chaos. So the way that I like to think about it

is like an orchestra.

So you think if you have the conductor. Now the conductor is going to bring in the violins at a certain time. They're going to tell them when to increase in volume and when to decrease when the the horns should be coming in when the strings come in, when different different pieces should be coming in when they should be going out when they should be stopping when they should be slowing down when they should be speeding up.

And when

the conductor let's say that the conductor is behind on when they let the violin come in.

and or they forget to to stop the horns at a certain part.

It's going to really

change that piece of music, and the people in the audience are going to like. If they're going to hear

that music, that peace

very differently, it's going to be very confusing. It's going to sound really bad.

And we're going to know that there's mistakes and things that are happening. Well, that is how things are working in a lot of neurodiverse kids brains.

And in these kids brains when they're

they're really trying to follow a plan.

Their their kids don't.

So

they? They don't

yell and scream at other kids, or hit other kids

because

they want the attention. They don't want other kids to be looking at them and thinking, oh, they're the bad kid.

you know. They don't want any of this.

And so when we start diving into executive functioning, what we're learning

is there are some base, foundational, executive functioning

pieces

that really

that need to be addressed 1st before we can even address other ones.

So the 1st ones are our perception.

So if we think about if there's a child that doesn't really notice those around them, they don't notice when something that they say has upset the people around them. They don't notice that another child wants to turn. They don't notice that you're even standing in the room.

They don't notice

they're not perceiving things around them in their external environment, or they're not even ex perceiving things inside internally. They're not

perceiving

what they need

as well. They're not really aware of what they need in certain periods of time. That's their perception.

Another one is attention.

So they may not be able to focus on certain things. This is where we get the Adhd. They can't focus on things they may not be able to read a book. They may have been able to read.

read a lot when they were younger, when it was like small books that they could get through really quick. But once it gets to chapter books. They really struggle to focus

and taken the information. They you ask them to do something, and they're not doing it because they lost focus on what they're doing or they start it. But then they end up into something else.

Attention as well can be where they're actually hyper focused

where they're maybe noticing all the sounds around them, and all the noise and all the other things that are going on around them, that they can't actually concentrate on what they want to concentrate on.

and they might start getting upset. They might start getting angry.

And

so

those are the 2. Those are attention.

Now we start working into

verbal working memory and nonverbal working memory. These are more to do with how you remember words. So if a child forgets words

or they're like, what did you say again, if they're asking you to repeat directions

quite often? That can be a struggle with executive functioning and verbal working memory or nonverbal working memory. If they're having outbursts at certain times, or they're struggling with reading, they're struggling with writing, with certain

pieces of them. Those could be not because they actually have a reading or writing struggle, it could be because they have a struggle with their verbal working memory or nonverbal working memory. If they're not able to remember sounds if you're repeating over and over again the phonetic sounds, and you tell the child that they have to keep practicing it. But no matter how often they practice, they can't

retain the information that could be verbal working memory.

or nonverbal, murky memory depending on which piece

of the brain is not able to connect that

and then we get into inhibition.

So these are the 1st 5,

perception, attention, verbal working memory, nonverbal working memory and inhibition.

Inhibition is where

a child

hits. Child screams. This is my son

where he tells you, after he's done it. He's like I didn't even know it was going to happen. It's just all of a sudden he's hit all of a sudden. He's yelled at you

all of a sudden. He's getting mad for something, and it comes so quick, so out of the blue. And then he's done, and he's almost in shock because it happened.

That is inhibition. Inhibition, too, is when you need to keep doing the same thing over and over where

like, you have to keep going on the slide, or

you need to keep playing pokemon

kids with inhibition do struggle more

kids in general struggle with being sucked into well, adults, too, into

computers, be it social media, be it. A video game, be it Youtube videos.

the kids with inhibition

struggle even more cause they really

e

learn how we get sucked into those platforms. You also have

this inhibition

that stops you from being able to do that.

If you have a child that struggles to stop, that, you need to leave and go somewhere, but they can't stop because their game is not finished, or whatever they were doing

is not finished, and they're in absolute tears and stressing out or anger

because

they need to finish this before they can go.

That is inhibition as well.

So inhibition has has all kinds of different layers to it. I haven't actually covered all of the different things that our kids could be doing just from perception, attention, verbal working memory, non verbal working memory and inhibition. And these are just the base, foundational executive functioning. There are higher level ones, one being planning.

but there are so many. I think there's about 10 or 12 other higher level executive functioning pieces

that if we think about it, that that conductor in our kids brains

is not conducting. Now, your child may be amazing

with some of these.

and not with another. So that's where the manager is managing certain ones. Very, very well. But the manager

is not able to manage some of the other parts of the executive functioning. So when we're looking at it from this lens, that's where

I was speaking with my friend, and I was like, see, this is why I'm constantly saying we should not be punishing these kids.

She's like, Oh, my God!

I totally see it. I am looking at this from such a different lens now that she's been diving into this course with me.

She is like I am seeing that my child can't

versus, won't

that my child is not actually

having these outbursts of hitting, or screaming, or yelling, or whatever insert anything, insert anxiety, insert like meltdown crisis panic attack.

Insert any of these things that our kids do

or not listening to you

when they're not following what you've asked them to do

when they're not able to execute what you've asked them to do when they're asking you to repeat for the 50th time what you just asked them to do all of these things

that we would normally

punish for have some sort of a discipline. For because this child is

not

not doing what we've just asked

is not because the child

there was someone the other day, too. As I said, there was many stories this past week

we were out and about.

and there was this boy that I do know. Has Adhd

and his dad had come

and asked him about something. I I

was far enough away, and I didn't hear the entire conversation. I just felt so bad for this child. The dad's amazing. I'm not saying anything negative about father.

He asked him about something he's like, Hey, did you do such and such? And the boy said, No, he goes. I was doing it, he goes. I had started it. I went, and I did this, and this he goes, and then that one slipped my mind, and I just saw this boy was in tears. He's like, I'm so sorry. Dad and his dad just looked at him was like

his dad understands

the Adhd. I'm not sure how much the dad understands the executive functioning piece. I'm like so would love to

sit down with him and talk to him about it. But I'm cautious about

telling everyone and everybody about this

because not everybody wants to hear everything we have to say. But his parents are phenomenal, that I may. Next time I see them. I might just sit down and go, hey? I've been studying this new thing.

and I've been learning about this. And I've been learning about this attention piece.

and I'm seeing that it's not an issue of them

trying to focus for longer. It's an issue of them learning how to refocus when they are on something that we're looking at this from a different lens.

And there's ways that we can start helping that brain

because this brain is working and developing up until that 25. And if we can help these kids, we can actually help teach them.

Teach that manager in their brain, that CEO in the brain, how to manage all of these pieces

before the age of 25. You can do this later as an adult. So adults with Adhd.

adults with planning struggles, organization struggles, decision-making struggles.

focus attention.

they can work on it. There has been studies. There's been a lot of work with like people have had strokes

and stuff, and they can relearn these pieces that the executive functioning

is in charge of. It's just has to be done a lot more repetitively, a lot more consistently

to work on these strategies. The kids, under the age of 23 to 25 pick it up a lot faster, the younger the faster that they can pick it up and learn it as well.

That being said, though

depending on how severe some of this is with some of the kids, it can take

a year to 2 years

of working on this multiple times a week

in order for the management section to to learn this skill. Some kids can learn it really quickly.

Some, it just takes longer. So this is definitely an individual basis. I haven't dove deep into autism. So I don't know

with autism.

How much of it can.

how much of it can't?

I don't know that I will be diving into it. I know that in the course that I'm taking. There is some more information on autism.

and depending on how

far

I don't know the quite, quite the proper wording. But how far into the spectrum that they are that you can work on it. But you can help with some.

And the main thing that I do want to really get out of this today is understanding that

when you do see these things

I know that since I've been studying it, I see it in so many of my my kids friends, and I find it so fascinating. Now, whereas before I'd be like, why is this kid not doing that? You know, I used to judge right?

And now I'm like, Oh, that's this piece of the executive functioning that's planning, or that's attention, or that's like decision making. I'm like understanding what pieces of the executive functioning is with these kids. And it's funny, because when they're at my house now, the way that I'm speaking to them and doing things with them is slightly different in order to actually help some of their executive functioning skills. Because this is just the coolest thing.

My hope, though, from this is your understanding that

even if there is a child

autism, not autism.

whose executive functioning system is so struggling.

my hope is that in understanding more about their executive functioning system.

You're understanding more when they have certain reactions

that those reactions

are are more of an an issue that they can't.

Then they won't.

or they're not trying hard enough, or they're not doing it well enough, or they they're just not even wanting to do it.

It's usually an issue of they can't

so hopefully that that comes through after that. Yes, we can start working on it and seeing where these kids are going through it

which leads me to another

story as well. Like. As I said, there were so many things this week that happened.

There was another mom that messaged me that

that

we've been diving into this world together. I've been really helping her out a lot in

seeing that things that are going on with her daughter.

1st off, that this mom's not alone. She feels so alone. She doesn't know other parents who have kids that are struggling with

relationships with other kids struggling with when their child is not able to perceive

that

other kids are not

receptive to what they're saying or the way that they're saying. Things

are probably quite factual.

You're not very good at that. It could be very factual. That child at that moment may not be good at that certain task.

but that they're not able to perceive that that the other kids

are

they're not able to perceive that that the other kids are taking that badly, or that some of the things that they're saying are hurting other kids feelings.

And so that's what happened with this parent. And we know both the kids. This mom is feeling so bad

that their child said something to another child and really hurt that child's feelings.

And at the same time she's learning that this is an executive, functioning struggle in her daughter, that her daughter is trying her best.

She does not want kids to be upset, especially this other child. This her daughter loves this other child. They hang out a lot like

that. She doesn't want to hurt their feelings.

and she doesn't understand how what she said, hurt their feelings so, punishing her for something that she doesn't even understand, because her executive functioning, that management piece

in her brain

isn't even aware

of what it's doing and how it's doing yet

that this mom and I was talking to I'm like, Oh.

these are the pieces. This isn't a perception piece. This is an inhibition piece. This is

There's. There's other parts, too, like part of the attention. And there's other parts of the higher end, executive functioning all in this one action that this child's doing. There are 3,

5 different executive functioning struggles that this child's having

in this one action that they are taking

and so disciplining this child, for that action

does not.

is not necessarily the right thing to do able. It's not the right thing to do, because this child is not doing it on purpose. They don't even understand it. So disciplining somebody for something they don't understand.

That's hard.

and it's also not going to disciplining them isn't going to fix the problem. It's really is about diving into this executive functioning.

doing

the intakes.

checking in

doing all these intakes, finding out where are all the executive functioning struggles that this child's having and working on them in a way that works for that child at a pace that works for them

realistically and helping them out. It's all about supporting them

right? The more that our kids feel supported, the less they're in a stress state as well.

And that leads us into the animals that I was speaking about the other day

when we're talking about neurodiverse kids

they can get

when we're talking about neurodiverse kids. They can get

stressed out so much when their executive functioning system is struggling. And then when their executive functioning system is struggling, it stresses them out even more, and it becomes this revolving like this whole vicious cycle.

And that's when we start seeing the shark come out

where they're like feeling like everybody's on them. Everybody's attacking them, or they're going to attack, and we need to be aware, and they might like yell or kick or scream, or, you know.

lash out. They may be like Marlin, the clownfish where Nemo start, where they have the anxiety.

where they're worried about, where they're not able to make changes. They're not able to stop what they're doing and go to something else. They don't like transitions. A lot of those are actually

executive functioning struggles, and then the anxiety kicks into because of the executive functioning struggles as well.

and then we can get to the turtle where they just hide where they are just so overwhelmed.

They have so much going on in their brain that manager like, if you think of an orchestra where the conductor is doing such a poor job. Can you imagine the overwhelm, the noise that is happening in that brain?

And I can just get you to either become like a shark, and want to lash out or become like a turtle, and just hide and make it all go away and all stop if I just stop everything. Now, if I stop the thinking, if I stop trying to do anything.

then the manager doesn't have to do as much, and they can actually get a break, so they will go into their turtle.

So a lot of these emotions and everything that these kids are feeling

are valid

and trying to punish them for something that they are not able to manage yet for something that they don't have control over yet

is

hard. Now that being said, if your child is in a shark.

and they are attacking and hitting and violent.

Then definitely certain boundaries need to be put into place

along with the compassion, the caring the understanding and helping them

after safety has been

made for everybody around.

and after that child has come down a little bit

is when you can start implementing

other strategies other than discipline.

And really, really help those kids get back into that dolphin brain

as you start working on helping their executive functioning schools.

Alright, that was a lot

that

we dove into. Executive functioning has taken me of over a year now of diving into and learning and understanding, and now doing this course.

The deep dive that I've gone into it to even get to where I'm at, and understanding it, and being able to help my son and my son's

friends, and

starting to help my clients as well

with the Executive functioning piece, has taken me a long while, so what I threw at you today is a lot.

Take your time with it. I'm going to be breaking this down more. If you want more of it. Let me know.

If you want to talk about it. Book a 30 min. Call with me.

There is never, ever any intention when I get on a call that, hey?

You know, you're gonna become a paying client. Right?

I'm here. I'm here to build connections.

I'm here to learn more about you.

and I'm here to support you. So book that 30 min call with me. There is one call per person

and book your call

we could hop on, and

I will walk through this with you.

My hope is that with this episode that you are seeing and understanding that the behaviors of our kids.

it upsets them just as much.

or, if not more at times than it upsets us.

and when it's upsetting them because of their behaviors, or because of their struggles, then that's as well. When the shark comes in, or the clown fish and the anxiety comes in, or the turtle

goes into their shell.

They're already feeling bad enough. Their shame spiral is feeling bad enough, their confusion of what's going on, their their

thoughts of them.

They know they're struggling, and they don't know why they don't know how to help it or to fix it is struggling.

but they don't need to be disciplined. On top of that.

They need the kindness, the caring, the compassion, and for the both of you together

to start building in supports to help them.

I'm here to help

if you would like to work with me.

book a 30 min. Call as well as I said. It's never my intention to say, hey, you're going to work with me, but hop on a call. Ask me all your questions.

and

if you feel we'd be a good fit, we can start working together. If not, then we will find other solutions and strategies for you.

I'm here to help as best as I can. I also do have a Facebook group. The link is in the show notes.

So add yourself to that Facebook group. Come and join other parents who are like you so that you don't feel alone.

And let's do this together. I've

I'm on this journey still.

it's been a long journey to get to where I am to be helping my son to the point where, oh, my God, I'm so proud. And I was just telling neighbors today about the progress we've made.

Oh.

the gains he's had are just phenomenal.

so amazing, so exciting, and I would love to help get you there as well.

All my links are in the show notes, and I'll see you

in the next episode.