Extended reality is starting to find a real place in dementia research and care. In this episode, host Dr Byron Creese is joined by David de Jong-Bambagioni, Dr Emilie Brotherhood, and Alice Rowe to explore how virtual, augmented, and mixed reality tools are being used in practice.

Together, they discuss how XR is helping to standardise cognitive assessments, simulate clinical environments, and support earlier and more accurate diagnosis. The conversation also looks at how immersive tools are being used to build empathy, giving clinicians and carers a better sense of what it might feel like to live with dementia.

The panel share examples from their own work, including virtual simulations to distinguish delirium from dementia, and digital environments designed to capture subtle behavioural changes in conditions like frontotemporal dementia. These approaches are opening up new ways to study cognition, behaviour, and patient experience in more realistic and scalable settings.

This episode offers a practical look at where XR is already making a difference, and where it might go next.

In this episode:

• How XR is being used in dementia research and care
• Using immersive environments for assessment and empathy
• Why co design and lived experience matter
• Virtual, augmented, and mixed reality explained simply
• Ethical risks and safeguards in vulnerable groups
• How researchers are moving into digital health
• Getting started with XR and finding collaborators
• Inclusion, global perspectives, and reducing bias

A transcript of this show, links and show notes and profile on all our guests are available on our website at https://www.dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk.

If you prefer to watch rather than listen, you will find a video version of this podcast on YouTube, on our website, and in selected podcast platforms.

Leave us a tip:

https://dementia-researcher.captivate.fm/support

Follow us on social media:

• https://www.instagram.com/dementia_researcher/
• https://www.facebook.com/Dementia.Researcher/
• https://www.twitter.com/demrescommunity
• https://www.linkedin.com/company/dementia-researcher
• https://bsky.app/profile/dementiaresearcher.bsky.social

Download and Register with our Community App:

https://www.onelink.to/dementiaresearcher

We gratefully acknowledge the support of our funders: Alzheimer’s Association, Race Against Dementia, Alzheimer’s Research UK, Alzheimer’s Society, and the National Institute for Health and Care Research.

The views and opinions expressed by guests in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the producers, funders, or sponsors.

Subscribe to our sister show 'Dementia Researcher The Blogs':

https://podfollow.com/dementia-researcher-blogs

The Dementia Researcher podcast,

talking careers, research,

conference highlights,

and so much more.

- Hello and welcome to the

Dementia Researcher Podcast.

Today we are exploring

XR, spatial computing

and digital approaches

to understanding life

beyond memory in dementia.

My name is Dr. Byron Creese,

I'm a senior lecturer in psychology

at Brunell University of London,

and I'm delighted to be

hosting today's show.

Extended reality, spatial computing

and sensor-based systems

are moving from gaming,

creative practise, and

industry into health

and care settings.

These tools allow researchers

to study how people interact

with environments, objects,

and routines in a more

natural and responsive way

than traditional clinic rooms.

With us today are three people

working at the forefront

of this area.

We've got David De Jong-Bambagioni,

who works with healthcare organisations

to tackle efficiency

challenges and bring insights

from gaming, spatial computing

and XR into clinical practise.

Dr. Emilie Brotherhood,

who explores psychophysiological

responses captured

through sensor platforms

and investigates health spatial computing

can support digital markers,

and assessment for people

with non-memory led dementias.

And Alice Wroe, XR lead

at the Atlantic Institute

where she supports a global fellowship,

and explores how extended realities

can advance social equity

and what it means to be

human in digital spaces.

Hello everyone.

- Hi.

- It's great

to have you with us.

To start us off, can I ask each of you

to introduce yourselves?

Let's start with Emilie.

- Hi, thank you. So I'm Emilie.

I'm a senior research

fellow in Neuropsychology,

and I'm based at the

Institute of Neurology,

Queen Square University College of London.

- Thank you. And Alice?

- Hello. I'm delighted to be here.

Yeah, my name's Alice Wroe,

and I'm the extended realities lead

at the Atlantic Institute.

And so we think about

how emerging technologies

can enable our community of fellows,

and our partners to be on the front foot

with emerging technologies.

So it's not something that happens to us,

but it's something that

we can kind of engage with

to think about how we can build fairer,

more inclusive societies using

this sort of emerging tech.

David is a fellow actually.

- Ah, okay.

- Nicely to David. Yeah.

- Brilliant. So you're teeing up David.

- Yeah, so David De Jong-Bambagioni

from the Netherlands

and I'm a social entrepreneur

in the Netherlands,

and we work with XR to improve

process in hospital care,

and dementia care, psychiatric care.

So very broad, but we use the technology,

how can we improve healthcare yesterday.

- Brilliant. Thank you all.

So I've actually work in dementia care,

but much more on, I guess more

typical psychology background.

So this is really exciting for me.

Let's get going.

(bright music)

So let's begin with your individual work.

David, could you tell us

about the work you're doing

with extended reality

and spatial computing,

and what you're trying to

understand or change through it?

- Yeah, so my company,

they're health and facing

in the Netherlands,

we work on (indistinct),

educational technology

and MedTech and medical technology.

And what we do with the (indistinct) part

is change the way we

train nurses, caregivers,

give them information in a different way.

We use 360 video for that.

And what we do is like empathy

VR, so you can experience

how it is to go through the

four phases of dementia,

or how it is to have a psychosis,

just to step in somebody else's shoes

to empathise with the other person.

We also do virtual excursion.

So if you are living with dementia,

or laying in the hospital and

you can travel around anymore,

we have beautiful beaches,

forests, even train stations.

Some people like to be on a train station.

And also we do social skills training,

so improve the way you

interact with medical staff,

patients, that kind of stuff.

And also like movements, so

like body movement in 360

and with a med tech, what we

do is we optimise processes

around medical devices.

Think about track and tracing

like your Apple Air tag

that you know, where your bag is,

where your bike, but then

in a medical setting,

in a hospital, we do warehouse management.

So where are all these devices?

It's a big challenge, like

where are the medical devices

and dashboarding with AI agents.

So that's like smart

assistance that can help you

to find the right medical device.

So you go to a patient,

what does the patient need?

And in that way you find

the right medical device,

and the information part

for the carrier like is done

with augmented reality.

So you can see the medical

device in the space.

So if you want to troubleshoot,

then you can see the medical

device in front of you

on your desk and then you can say,

oh, how does this button work?

Or that kind of thing.

So that's what we do with XR.

- Great, thank you.

And Emilie, your research

spans spatial computing,

digital signals and psychophysiology.

So could you briefly describe

what projects you've

worked with in this area?

What questions are you hoping to answer?

- Yeah, sure.

So my PhD was looking

at the sort of in the digital signal space

in a more dementia care context.

So Byron kind of aligning with your work.

And that was really about

using kind of infrared cameras

to pick up signals, like

changes in pupil responses

as people listen to familiar

and unfamiliar music,

and those populations and people

with different types

of Alzheimer's disease.

And that was really to

answer research questions

like how can we augment

and improve personalised

(indistinct) interventions

in dementia care?

But while that was going on,

I was also collecting pilot data

that was looking at innovative ways

that we could use extended reality

in the field of dementia assessments.

So moving sort of from a care

to actually diagnostic capacity.

And this would particularly address things

like how we detect changes

in competitive domains aside

from the memory challenges

that we tend to see in more typical forms

of Alzheimer's disease are

moving towards detecting subtle

behaviour and social personality changes

in the, for example, the

ability to exhibit empathy

that are often observed in people

with frontotemporal dementia.

- Great, thank you.

So you're working in,

I guess the less common dementias then.

So taking in FTD as well

as Alzheimer's. Great.

Alice, you approach XR from a creative

and equity centred perspective,

could you share what you

are working on at the moment

and how you think extended realities

will help people and society?

- Yeah, and it's so brilliant

to hear David and Emilie's work

because with extended realities,

the vast majority of this

tech is used for military,

and for gaming and it's

just like mega dominated.

It's then when you hear

about work like this,

it's just twinkling for this

new kind of thoughtful future

with this technology, that's so exciting.

Yeah, so I work, as I've mentioned

at the Atlantic Institute

and we believe that this type

of technology is gonna change

the way that we all navigate our futures

in terms of our work lives,

our professional lives,

and we wanna make sure that

our fellows, our partners,

our community at large are

people that feel confident

and safe to be critical

to champion this tech,

to kind of creating it,

collaborate through it.

So we put a real strategic

focus on this particular area,

and so we've been working

in three main areas.

So we're thinking about co-presence,

how can our global and

growing community be together

whilst we're physically apart?

We've been thinking about

how can this technology lift

the equity work of the fellows?

So projects like Emilie's and David's,

it just kind of sings to our hymn sheet.

It's about taking people that

may not ordinarily have access

to this sort of tech,

bring their expertise

and just lift it into their work

and raise their equity work.

And then the third one is

around thought leadership.

So this tech space is so often

dominated by the same voices

with the same kind of backgrounds.

And we actually think that

through interdisciplinary

engagement, that is how

we're gonna make progress,

social beautiful progress in this space.

So it's bringing fellows

together, our partners together,

our communities together to

gather around this technology

and dream with it fundamentally.

And so we are raising the

tech literacy as well.

And so finally, I'll

just give you one example

of an actual piece that we're working on.

So one of our fellows at the

moment is creating a piece

with our lab in Oxford, in Rhodes house.

We've got a brilliant XR

specialist, Richard Smith,

and they're making a 360

film about climate anxiety

called "Living in Water" in collaboration

with the equity initiative

in Southeast Asia.

So we're thinking about

climate anxiety globally,

and how it lives differently

depending on where you are.

And so we're making work like that,

but for me it's the tech

literacy and the raising

of who is in the room

talking about this stuff

that really makes me sing.

- That's great. Thank you.

Such enthusiasm from all three of you.

Can I ask about your backgrounds.

Are you a health scientist,

psychologist who've moved into tech?

Or are you tech people who've moved

into applying your skills to healthcare?

- I've lived in academia for a decade

as a neuropsychology researcher.

That's very much where I've stayed.

- Yeah.

- By origin, I'm a social worker,

so I rolled into this technology.

- Oh great.

- Oh, I love that.

Rolled into technology.

There's an artist called Stephanie Dinkins

who works a lot in tech,

and she calls herself an

accidental technologist,

which is what I relate to as well.

So my background was in creative direction

and then I was kind of picked

out of it by an amazing CEO

of a spatial computing

company, Magic Leap.

And he just knew that if you

get people whose background

isn't tech, actually, that's

where you can kind of dream

the biggest things when

you bring them together

with tech people.

And we all kind of merge and become one.

So I ascribe to the

accidental technologists.

- Let's move on then to, I

guess talk about that tech,

XR, an immersive environment.

So extended reality would include things

like virtual reality, augmented

reality, and mixed reality.

And these tools can produce naturalistic,

and responsive environments

for assessment and support.

I mean, that's as far as

my understanding would go.

So what I need is for

you to help me out a bit.

So perhaps Alice, can I start with you?

For those unfamiliar,

can I ask you to tell us

the difference between extended reality,

virtual reality, augmented

and mixed reality?

- It would be my pleasure, Byron.

So fundamentally, XR is this

kind of big umbrella term

that encompasses a load of

different immersive technologies.

So please don't feel

intimidated by that term.

If it seems interchangeable,

or there's lots of different things,

it's because there are loads of words

that kind of mean similar things.

So VR as you said, virtual reality

as if you put a headset on,

all you will see is the

digital world in front of you.

So if you're wearing a

virtual reality headset,

you might actually just

like walk into a chair,

or like stub your toe

'cause all you can see

is that virtual world.

And then you've got augmented reality,

and mixed reality where the digital

and the physical worlds

come together as one.

So actually as you put

those sort of headsets on

or you kind of bring

them up using your phone,

you'll see your world around you,

but you'll have digital content

that is kind of engaging

with quite poetically that the worlds

that you have around you.

So I think those are the

two big ones to understand.

Some people call it spatial computing

or the metaverse, the embodied internet,

all these different terms.

But fundamentally it's everything

that like bursts out of your screen

and into your environment

in different ways.

- Great. And David then,

how do you see XR helping

clinicians understand

the day-to-day challenges and other things

that might be missed in clinics,

specifically as it pertains

to dementia would be really interesting?

- Because of what we do is like...

So what we do is community driven VR.

So together with like clinicians,

we try to figure out what

are the challenges clinicians

are facing in the day-to-day

clinic that they could miss.

And then you just like, you

kind of create like a sandbox,

like a safe space where

people can experiment.

So like for example, we have one training,

and it's regarding seeing the

difference between a delirium

or like symptoms of dementia.

So we try to like simulate environments

where like you can make

decisions and choices

that maybe you would not

do in a clinical setting

to like empathise, look at the...

Like how do you communicate,

what is the workflow,

what are the processes, how

can we optimise those to train

in a safe environment?

And what I said before,

I think the empathy part,

like the empathy trainings we create

I think are very powerful,

even though you're a clinician,

even though you study the

subject or a certain disease,

like the moment a patient's

sitting in front of you ,

how do you know how their world is?

How do they view you sitting

on the other side of the table,

you know, with the white

coat effect, of course.

So stepping in the other person's shoes

and experience from the

other way is really helpful.

So, and that's the kind of

sense we try to optimise

the day-to-day clinic to, you know,

step in somebody else's shoes and

just get out of your own bubble.

- Yeah. Does it extend as well

to, like the room I'm sitting in right now

is work you can see

'cause it's really bland.

- I thought that was just your

taste, Byron, minimal man.

- Your virtual backgrounds,

we thought you're in a metaverse.

- Yeah. But so would it

extend to like doctors,

or other healthcare

professionals consulting

in a very sterile environment,

does it extend to helping them understand

how someone operates in

the real world at home?

So almost simulating if you were to go,

and watch someone in their own house

and draw insights that way.

- Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

- Oh, brilliant.

And Emilie, how does spatial

computing use these realities

then and what do they offer

when measuring subtle changes

in how people interact

with their surroundings?

- So it's really interesting, David

to, you know, hear about your

work using VR as a, or XR

as a vehicle for empathy because

this is exactly the reason

for a very different motivation.

But it's exactly the reason

I want to incorporate it

in my research in the

pilot data we collected.

And that's because in

the diagnostic criteria

for a particular type

of this sort of frontotemporal

dementia that I'm interested

in, one of the diagnostic criteria

is a mark change in empathy.

And for a clinician and for a caregiver,

that can be incredibly

obvious when you're sitting

in the room and a carer is

relaying a story, for example,

about how some, you know,

they injure themselves.

And it was so strange the

reaction of the patient

because they thought it was hilarious,

which obviously isn't a normal response

and very different usually from hopefully

what their kind of pre dementia

empathic response would be.

So I'm taking sort of the same,

a principle that VR

could be used for empathy

and trying to use that in

an assessment capacity.

But the beauty of these,

all of these environments

and in a virtual world

is that for a researcher

and scientist, I want to

be able to standardise

that experience and exposure,

and create a virtual environment

that would be almost

impossible to replicate

in a standardised way

in any clinical setting,

unless you had at your

disposal these technologies.

- Are you designing the

technologies Emilie,

or someone else?

- That is somebody else.

- So you're deploying them?

- Yeah, so it would be

sort of co-developing

and perhaps we move on this later,

but you know, the kind of

co-design process with people

with lived experiences,

so central in order

to kind of hear the stories

of what sounded like an empathy

change for their loved one

from a carer's perspective, you know,

those kind of, we use for the

pilot work that we've done,

they have helped develop

and develop the story

that then when we've

collaborated with engineers,

and computer scientists to

develop these virtual worlds,

they're the stories that we've taken.

And then really I'm looking

at the kind of clinical angles

of how good this assessment could be.

- Yeah, yeah. So co-design is

a part of the front end of it.

So the sort of, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

And then so you are involved

in that and then Alice,

and I think David, I'll

bring you in on this as well.

I guess that leads in

nicely to how we ensure

that these various tools

are shaped by the people

that they're supposed to serve.

Emilie's just given an example there,

is there anything that

further back in the process,

I dunno what the tech term is

for earlier in the development

that...

- Yeah.

- That we need

to think about?

- I mean, I think Emilie

is just completely nailed

it in that, that is how...

If we are gonna create

meaningful experiences

that will create impactful

change, they have to be designed

by the people that they seek to serve,

and kind of have that lived

experience embedded into it.

We have a fellow, Miriam Hernandez

that has written a really brilliant paper

on community led storytelling in VR

because even more so than

other media, virtual reality,

you know, it takes everything

and particularly 360 films,

it can be extremely exposing.

And so the risk to...

There's all sorts of risks

in terms of telling other people's stories

using this technology.

And so I think that

absolutely what Emilie said

is the way forward and

the only way actually

to create these ethical kind of pieces.

In terms of, I think your

question around the actual

of technical development of it,

I mean that is always a

win if you can bring people

into the process as much as possible.

So Richard Smith, the Excel specialist

that we have at the lab, well

when he's doing 360 filming,

he is always explaining to the community

exactly this is what the camera's doing,

this is why I'm putting it here,

do you want to, you

know, press this button,

where do you want to place the camera?

It's about always asking those questions.

And then certain people might

just rise to the occasion,

and want to do more training themselves

and we would love to

support 'em to do that.

But it's about bringing people in,

and demystifying this process

that can often feel

exceptionally kind of dense

and just kind of making clear,

this is what we're doing,

this is why we're doing it,

how do you wanna do it

differently or with us.

- And David, have you got

some examples from your work

to add?

- Yeah, no, I would say,

this is a bit weird saying that XR tech...

XR is not about the tech,

it's about the people.

So, and that's like, we

started already with...

We talked about gaming.

So even in gaming, if you don't

make a game for the gamers,

still not gonna play the game.

So if you don't make

experiences or XR applications

that like really solve real

world problems for clinicians

or people living with dementia,

then you're doing the

wrong thing, I think.

So I would say like...

And it never starts with the tech,

so that's I think also the big challenge

in the field we're in.

So like there every few months now,

luckily new spatial computers

and headsets are coming

out, which is amazing,

but never start, like, I

never start with a tech.

In general, when we have

co-creation sessions,

we never bring the tech in the space,

we bring pencils, we draw, we

start in a creative setting

to understand like what is

it, like, peel off the onion,

what is the real challenge you're facing?

And then maybe the tech can be a solution.

So sometimes we do a session,

and then the XR is not a solution

and something completely out.

So never start with the tech,

start with like the problem,

the challenge that people are facing

and then you can build up towards XR.

So I think that's how you

should look at this technology.

- And so in the...

So thinking about dementia specifically,

then it's sort of the...

If we're extending what

you said into dementia,

you'd be thinking about

what problems are people

with dementia facing?

What do they tell us that they need?

And then is this type of tech a solution?

- Or even carers, Byron.

- Right.

- I've seen an amazing

piece in terms of the people

that are living with, caring for,

and exactly what both

Emilie and David said,

that XR is an empathy machine.

You know, if you can experience something

of what it might be like

to live with dementia

through the headset, you can then care

from a completely different

angle than you would

if you're living with

your own kind of biases,

frustrations, overwhelm.

It can kind of take you

into a different space

to love and care for somebody

that has dementia as well.

- That's a great point, yeah.

I think we never mustn't forget carers.

Do people like it this technology,

people with dementia, carers,

what's the uptake like?

- Yeah, so the experience of caregivers,

like we have a lot of like,

so these 360 experience,

we have like very emotional

sessions sometimes

with family members that as Alice said,

like you're in your day-to-day,

you're caring for your partner,

you have to get your

kids from school at four,

you know, there's a lot

going on in your life.

And then like you get to the (indistinct),

especially caregivers, a

lot of burden on caregivers

and things in global north and the south.

And we're facing in the global

north a specific challenge

with ageing population.

And so there's a lot

of burden on caregivers

and like sometimes we forget, so like,

but to understand like a grandson,

so my grandmother has dementia,

doesn't really understand what that is.

And when we give them this experience,

like they're really like that in a sense.

Like to understand like, what is it then?

And of course it's not perfect, you know,

I'm not gonna say our training is perfect,

but we try to get as close

to reality as possible.

And people living with dementia,

like, yeah, surprisingly,

like there's like...

Some people like to watch (indistinct),

some people don't like it,

some people like to read newspapers,

so it's not for everybody, but

the people who are into it.

I had like 102 year old ladies

that like were in a rollercoaster

and said like, give me another spin.

But the thing is like if I

give a first demo to somebody,

I would never give a

rollercoaster experience

as it's like really can

make you really sick.

But she always went with

her kids to a theme park,

but now being in a

wheelchair, half paralysed,

living with dementia,

like, I can't go anymore.

So for her it was like, it was perfect.

So it's not for everybody,

but I think sometimes

people are very hesitant

to offer XR to people

living with dementia.

And of course there's like

some design principles

and you have to do an ethical way.

So like, I'm not saying like

give them any experience,

but people are open to it,

they really love it and

they like the renascence,

like going back in their

childhood for example,

had one lady base jump

in VR, so base jumping

and like afterwards, like

if you looked at experience,

the gaming experience, like

we said, wow, I don't know.

But then the things she

came out, so like to...

With my husband when we were together,

we'd go on a holiday to this island.

We saw people jump out there.

So like she started about her

husband, her family, her past.

So it's like, it's also

this reminiscence therapy,

like it brings like emotions

up that like are so hidden,

but a moment you're like, you

have an embodied experience

like you're sharing that and then yeah,

these memories pop up

and then you have really

beautiful experiences.

And then nurse is saying like

normally she never speaks,

and now she has this whole conversation

of 20 minutes about her past,

so yeah.

- And that's...

I think David's touched on

something beautiful there

because so often people think

with this technology it isolates us,

it takes us away from each other.

It's all about being on your

own with a computer screen.

But like David, you lit

up when you talked about

what she said, the story she was telling,

it's a conversation starter

doesn't quite do it justice,

but it enables people

to tap into something

that a part of themselves

that they want to share,

which is really special.

(bright music)

- So I think David, what

you were saying just now,

I think reminds us as well

that we shouldn't ever forget

those basic person centred principles

that we, you know, we're all used to

whatever part of research

or dementia care we're into,

it's really important.

The content you deliver

is relevant to the person.

I mean that be fair.

- Yeah. That's for sure.

And especially in, I think especially

in the technology space, I

think it's very important.

It doesn't matter if it's

XR or it's smartphones,

whatever it is.

- And Emilie, how do your

participants like the technology

or perhaps more

interestingly or as relevant,

have you had any experiences

where people just hate it

and what have you done then, and?

- So, no, it's a great question

and I think it...

You know, we had, as with

every research approach,

we went through a very stringent

ethical review, rightly so.

It was, you know, our

protocol for this essentially

what was a feasibility in

pilot study in this area,

'cause it was very novel, was, you know,

obviously very heavily scrutinised

and you know, a lot of...

We answered lots of the

ethics committees queries,

which really centred around

an interesting philosophical

discussion around the almost

philosophical in itself

of immersing people, you

know, vulnerable older adults

who perhaps potentially are

unsure of what reality is,

or unscented in reality as it is.

How ethical is that to centre somebody

in essentially something

that we all know is virtual

or essentially fake.

And so I think it was for our populations

that we were interested

in, it was really...

It was very important

that we kind of emphasise

that this isn't the type of confusion

that tends to be seen in these patients.

It's not really challenges with memory,

it was more to do with these

kind of behavioural changes,

which many of these individuals

don't have a lot of insight

into having and that's why

this tool is so important.

So we were able to sort of

navigate that ethical process,

which obviously had to be, you know,

completely rightly done.

And when we sort of got to the other side,

and started looking and

collecting the data,

you know, people tolerated it really well.

We made sure we had pre and

post kind of sickness simulation

questionnaires to establish

how they were feeling,

if they were dizzy, if they, you know,

had any kind of adverse physical effects

and we were videoing

the whole interaction,

so we could really hear obviously,

and I was observing the whole time

and we had lots of kind of

safeguarding things in place

if anyone did struggle or were distressed

by the environment.

But we didn't in my experience,

no we didn't encounter any of

those, which was encouraging.

- Yeah, that's great.

But you obviously went through

a really thorough process

to ensure that the technology

would suitable for people,

and that obviously operating

in sort of proper

ethical frameworks.

- Of course.

- Which is good, yeah. Or important.

So I guess, yes, thinking about ethics,

thinking about research,

then there's probably a lot

of researchers listening,

they might be thinking this is great,

this is super interesting.

I'm not a coder or a tech designer,

or have a computing background at all,

how do I begin?

How would you answer that question?

What advice would you have? Alice?

- Yeah, I mean it links back, doesn't it

to what we're talking about earlier

in terms of how we all

came into this space

with the accidental technologist thing.

The brilliant thing about the

Atlantic Fellowship for me

is the interdisciplinary nest of it.

You bring together poets, doctors,

activists, community leaders.

And when I spoke earlier about

raising that tech literacy,

all I'm really saying is

about raising the confidence,

so that when you are in a space

that is discussing this

type of technology,

you feel able to bring your

own real life expertise,

your own lived experience into that space

to have an opinion.

So for me, I think what

I would say to people

that are interested in this

space is trust your interest

and start being interested

and talking about it,

and having opinions on things

and researching and thinking.

And then in terms of if you

actually want to create a piece,

then there's all sorts of

quite interesting grants

where you can be paired with somebody

with a more kind of tech

technical specialism

as Emilie was mentioning.

And there are loads of

brilliant technologists

who are excited to

collaborate with organisation,

and institutes and bring those expertise

into the technical space.

So for me it's around confidence,

and it's not actually only for

the benefit of that person,

this is for the benefit,

without sounding too overblown

of humanity, like technology

is how we are all moving forward

in terms of navigating our lives.

It is absolutely imperative

that we are all invested,

and all feel able to be part of it.

So it's a kind of political act I think.

So if you feel interested

or completely scared

about where the world is going with tech,

listen, pay attention

and bring your beliefs

and what you have

expertise in to that table.

- So that applies not just to end users

of the technology people...

- No.

- With mentoring carers,

but actually as researchers, people who...

- Absolutely, yeah...

- Moving into that.

- I mean, to be honest,

like exactly what Emilie

has done, you know,

like Emilie was saying, her

background has been in academia

the whole way through

and she works with teams

to kind of lift up her

work into this space.

Like that's what we should

all be doing with tech.

It's like thinking about

how we can weave it

into our own lives so that we

can build just kind technology

that creates just kind

futures fundamentally.

So I think Emilie's a great

example as is David actually,

in terms of social workers.

So what a brilliant group

of people you have here

in terms of showcasing, you

don't need to go to kind of MIT

and have a hundred degrees,

you bring what you have

and it meets you where

you are and that's vital.

- So on that then, David and Emilie,

can I ask how you ended

up in this field then

from your respective earlier disciplines,

perhaps David.

- So in 2013, my brother and

I, especially my brother,

he backed the Oculus DK1.

So was like long time ago,

and he started to make

YouTube videos with that.

And I can tell you the first experience

I had was like in a little rollercoaster

with a ball rolling behind me.

And then you...

So anyway, not great

experiences in the beginning.

And in the beginning I didn't

think it would revolutionise

healthcare in a different way.

But then exposed therapy

came from the U.S.

and then I did...

During my bachelor's, I

did some research like, oh,

and then it clicked for

me when I saw the effect

of it was really simple with

like 3D spider on a table.

It was like really simple,

but effect it had on people

how realistic it was for

somebody with a phobia

and how you could trick somebody

with a spider not having a real spider.

So that really clicked for me.

And then yeah, it kind

of snowballed from there.

And everything I did in

my social work career,

every time I linked it on

VR, what can the stack do?

How can we change?

And then in 2018 when the Oculus Go came,

so it's like a standalone headset.

That was a moment I was like,

oh, now we can implement this

in healthcare and have

it in a scalable way

before you were connected

to computer and cables,

and it's great for research and

really like point solutions,

but like scalable, training

people, taking people.

That was a moment I was like, okay,

now we can do it at scale.

So yeah, and he has a very

successful YouTube channel now

where he reviews VR

headsets and XR experiences.

So yeah, so it came in from

the gaming entertainment side

and now we're here.

- Great. That's amazing. Emilie.

- So my, I mean to all credit

to the PI I've worked with

for many years, so professor

(indistinct) at UCL,

this was really a grant that I joined

as a junior researcher.

And this pilot, this was sort

of more the very kind of...

As part of a programme grant,

this was the kind of high risk

but high impact bit which was

a bit lot more exploratory.

And so that's...

I mean, I was very lucky

to have joined somebody

who had the vision to incorporate this,

but this was a number of years ago.

And I think for us,

while the pilot data was really exciting,

the kind of barriers at the time

was that it wasn't going to

be as accessible as, you know,

the tech kind of almost

hadn't caught up to the idea

of, oh this has to be

deployable in clinical settings.

And you know, at UCL we were very lucky

to have a very high resourced

virtual reality environment

that just wasn't going to be

accessible in clinical context.

So it kind of you know...

And then other research projects came up

and I continued in a sort

of digital signals avenue,

but then I was reinvigorated

by this actually, Alice

to say about, you know,

be a part of the story

is from lived experience

of a close family member

who they didn't have FTD but

after stroke had exhibited

like these March behavioural

changes that were very similar

and luckily for that family

member that was transient.

But for me it was very frustrating

that even at that point

and knowing that this, you know,

this is kind of down to

a neurological change,

There was no standardised

assessment that could show

a clinician or that they could track

if he was getting better,

or he was getting worse

or that, that was different

to what was expected

and that he had been his whole life prior.

And I think for me it really...

That lived experience kind

of reinvigorated the interest

and made me wanna pick this back up

and extend that pilot work.

And that's kind of why I am

talking about this again now

after all these years.

- Fantastic, thank you.

I think that you've all spoken

constantly about keeping

the human experience central,

without, I don't want

to sound too cynical,

but you could envisage a way,

a scenario in a particular situation

where it might be really

tempting to just pop a headset

on someone and leave them to it.

And as the technology

becomes more advanced,

it might be easy to lose sight

of the person at the centre.

So to all of you, where do

we really need to be careful

and reflective as we develop

and deploy these technologies?

Perhaps I'll start with Alice.

- Yeah, absolutely, everywhere.

We need to be keeping our

eyes open at all points.

With this technology, with

all emerging technology,

there is exceptional potential,

which we have beautifully

revelled in today.

But there is as critical risk,

there is so much risk

with this technologies.

It's also a kind of perpetuation

of the world we live in.

Like technology is not this separate thing

happening over there.

The biases, the prejudices,

the kind of entrenched racism,

sexism, homophobia that kind

of lives through our society

is replicated in lots

of these digital spaces.

So it's about recognising that we are

at a really exciting moment,

especially when you think

about kind of artificial intelligence

and immersive environments

and kind of the co-presence

that I mentioned.

But we are also at a tipping point

where we've got an opportunity

here not to perpetuate

the pains and the harms of the past,

and the present into the future.

And actually I'm fearful,

definitely fearful

that, that is exactly what we're doing.

That they're baked into the new systems

that are gonna kind of

affect all of our futures.

So I think it's vital that we

talk about this more widely

than just in tech spaces

at this tipping point

that we are in.

So that we can be very

deliberate about the spaces,

about the data, about the kind of ways

in which we are deciding

to commune with each other

in these new spaces.

Because deliberation, we

have to be deliberate,

or we're just gonna end up

with an even worse situation

than we have now.

- Thank you. And then Emilie and David,

just specifics about your areas

where you are most reflective and careful

in your particular cases. Emilie.

- I think it always comes

down to patient safety

and I know that's sort of a

kind of nuts and bolts answer,

but to speak to any other parts

I'd just be repeating

Alice's very sentiments,

which I really echo strongly.

So for me in a clinical research setting,

it has to be

about that kind of more...

- Sure.

- You know, a very kind

of pragmatic answer

to keep it short...

- No, that is, yeah,

important though.

And David, anything

specific from your area?

- I think most have been said,

but I think especially like incorporating

because like this technology is like,

I don't wanna say it's a

global north technology,

but it is like predominantly

in a certain field,

certain people, can all think

who those kinds of people are.

And I think like the challenges

we've been facing now

that have happened a hundred years ago,

which like inequalities

we're still facing,

I think with technology,

for me being in the space,

looking around who's in the

space, being in the tech space

with XR, like seeing like

the digital literacy,

like if we don't design the right way

and we don't incorporate the global south,

I think we're gonna have a big challenge

of like in a hundred years from now,

looking back at this time

that we didn't incorporate

the global south or certain

people with certain backgrounds

to make this an inclusive technology.

And then a hundred years from now,

we'll just like try to solve the problems

that we start here.

So like looking at the

past, looking into future,

then that's something

that I think we should be really aware of.

- Thank you. Thank you very much.

Really important point everyone.

(bright music)

So we're almost out of

time, but before we finish,

I'd like to end on something a bit fun.

A lot of what we've talked about today

would've seemed like science

fiction just a few years ago.

So I'd like you to tell me,

if you could bring one

thing from science fiction

into reality, what would it be?

David.

- Something from science

into reality.

I feel like we could have a time machine.

- Time machine...

- Would be great.

- Alice.

- Oh, I've seen it happen too many times.

People are looking through science fiction

and making it real.

So I would just say I

would like those tech bros

to start reading (indistinct)

rather than the other science fiction

that they seem too well versed in.

- And Emilie.

- I'd go for the Star

Trek universal translator

and if I could extend

it to animals as well,

I think that would just...

- Oh.

- Fascinating.

- That's so nice.

- So if you're listening to this,

we'd love to hear your own

science fiction wishes.

You can add that to the comments.

I'd really like to thank David, Emilie,

and Alice so much for joining me today.

And thank you very much for listening.

You can find out more information

and links to resources at our website,

which is DementiaResearcher.NIHR.AC.UK,

and do also visit our community app

where we continue these conversations

and share new events, blogs, and podcasts.

So my name is Byron,

and you've been listening to

the Dementia Researcher podcast

and from all of our guests, goodbye.

- [Narrator] The Dementia

Researcher Podcast was brought

to you by University College

London with generous funding

from the UK National

Institute for Health Research,

Alzheimer's Research UK,

Alzheimer's Society,

Alzheimer's Association,

and Race Against Dementia.

Please subscribe, leave us a review

and register on our

website for full access

to all our great resources.

DementiaResearcher.NIHR.AC.UK.