Episode One: Let’s Go! 

In the first episode of Resistance is Fertile, carla and Elia share why they are making this podcast, what Star Trek (and stories in general) mean to them, and also talk a bit about some of the characters and plot-lines that resonate with them most. In short, episode one is an introduction to the show and a bit of a teaser of what's to come! 

Mentioned: DS9 S6E25 ("Sweet Sound of Her Voice"), DS9 S4E2 ("The Visitor"), DS9 S3E11/12 ("Past Tense"), TNG S7E24 ("Preemptive Strike"), DS9 S1E1 ("Emissary"), DS9 S4E6 ("Little Green Men"). Star Trek: Discovery S2E7 ("Light and Shadows").

Show Notes

Support RIF: Patreon

RIF BlueSky: @thestartrekpod.bsky.social‬

Elia’s work

carla’s work + CAW

Music by NinePulse

Tech by Chris Bergman

RIF is co-produced by carla and Elia

Transcripts

thanks for listening!

Resistance is Fertile, episode one: Let’s Go!

Speakers: carla joy bergman, Elia Ayoub

(and various characters from Star Trek)

Hugh and Picard from The Next Generation

They will resist us

Resistance is futile

Resistance is not futile

0:12

Elia: Hi, I'm Eliah Ayoub

carla: Hey, I'm carla joy bergman

Elia: And you're listening to Resistance is Fertile a podcast about Star Trek

carla: and a little bit of anarchy And a little bit of autonomy and a whole pile of fun!

Elia: Yeah, yeah, we get into DS9, TNG, Voyager, all stuff Star Trek, for trekkies and non-trekkies.The intention is that we are going to convert you and It will be a lot of fun.

0:45

carla: Here we are!

Elia: Yeah!

carla: I think it'd be kind of fun before we get maybe into like some

stuff about the episodes and stuff like maybe talk about why we want to do

this podcast, like why we're interested in science fiction and fantasy as a way to process the world. have this like very long relationship with Star Trek. So, I was born in the mid -60s, '66, so grew up on the first one, repeats mostly, re -showings, and played it as a kid with all my, all the kids in the neighborhood, and I always wanted to be Spock, and I even told, like I even told people, I was from Vulcan! just like I imagine, I just lived in that world. And it continues to, I definitely continue to love even how they capture Spock in the newer iterations of Star Trek. They deepen it actually, so that's fun. But it wasn't really into the movies and The Next Gen reboot that I really became a Trekkie and went to The Star Trek conventions, met Leonard Nimoy. It was very exciting.

And you know, it was mostly TNG who were there, It was that era. It was late eighties early 90s, but I was never really like public about being a

watched Voyager right around when Discovery came on. Like I kind of, you know, I just did a deep dive and just fell in love with Star Trek and the culture around it was even better and the fans were even, yeah.

3:42

carla: And it's really helped me and I think what it is is like for me, Science fiction or fantasy that is skeptical about technology, takes an ethical approach to technology. Like it does the deep dive storytelling. I think I don't know who said it like it's some fantasy writer said the difference between good writing and bad writing is the bad writers will write

only about technology, but the good writers will write about the traffic jam. I think like of a car like say if you're like, let's just make the car the technology.

Like the good science fiction writers talk about the traffic jams and pedestrian fatalities and and that's to me lStar Trek. Right?

Elia: yes.

carla: Because it's very, very slice of life is very much about relationships and

the ethics that come from when you are relationship centered. Yeah, so considering the work and like the way what I am oriented towards writing about through my work,

Joyful Militancy and even Trust Kids is that, you know, I think relationships compose the world, including non -humans. And yeah, I just want to, for me, I am not somebody who's going to carry the details of every episode, Sorry fans that have that I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you know… I hope that we will do that together. Like we will go into, we watch it at the same time and then we talk about it. A deep dive.

Elia: yeah, like a watch party, a deep dive exactly.

carla: Yeah, so I can do that. But, I for me like just with you know the onslaught of horrors day by day. I think, you know, that's why I reached out to you was, let's have some, let's do something that intersects with like our politics and our thinking and the way we are in the world, but also brings a lot of joy to our lives. And I came across this Ursula K. Le Guin quote that said,

"One way to stop seeing trees or rivers or hills as only natural resources is to class them as fellow beings as kinfolk.”

And I feel like The Next Generation, like that is the thread that runs through

those seasons, like it was constant about. And so yeah, it's where I, I can see

the seeds that got that got seeded in from Star Trek.

Elia: yeah yeah

carla: So I'm very excited. And I'm very grateful that you wanted to do this with me. I have no expectations of what will come of it. And I just thought we will have a lot of fun.

Elia: Yeah…

carla: I didn't actually say much about who I am. I live on the indigenous land, the stolen lands of the Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish), xwməθkwəym (Musqueam), and Sel̓íl̓witulh (Tsleil-Waututh) people in what's called

Vancouver, Canada. I use she /they pronouns and I am a settler living here with British, Irish and Welsh ancestry.And I write a lot and I do other podcasts.

that's me.

6:41

Elia: Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm getting excited about this. I'll talk about my, my relationship with Star Trek. I'm a pretty latecomer to the whole thing. I had definitely seen like some of the movies back in Lebanon, where I grew up, just the stuff that's worth. I like, I wasn't into Star Wars and the movies. and right now I would classify as not being particularly good compared to the better stuff that I've since discovered, but it was like almost a bit of a

small taster if you want, still too action -y for my taste and stuff like that. But

well. And then I rewatched, I've been starting to rewatch the TNG parts of it and then DS9 all of it. I'm currently rewatching it as well. And I found a newfound bond with DS9 that even at the time I didn't fully understand, if you want. It took time for me to really appreciate how deep it got. I mean, I don't like to say more so necessarily because I love TNG for what it is. But DS9 just hits different. There's something very specific and special about it for me.

carla: I mean, it's so much less American.

Elia: Yeah, I think that's it. I think it's that. And just Sisco himself. We'll get into all of these things. We will have his appreciation episode for sure.

carla: Absolutely.

Elia: And just what I remember reflecting on this, just the fact that they actually spend time on some episodes doing like kind of nothing, you know, like nothing quote unquote important, a bit silly, you know, something in the Holosuite , acting like Robin Hood or Data defeating what’s his face,Moriarty, and stuff like that. That I just enjoyed those so much, you know, they were not fillers. There was like, they were, it's world building. Like they really spend the time doing that. And that's what I really appreciated about TNG and DS9 even more so later on. And Voyager, which I love. I love it as well for its own reasons. So and for me as someone who, I grew up in Lebanon, I was surprised to see how some of the themes explored in TNG as well, but especially in DS9. For example, like the big Cardassians occupation of Bajor and just Bajorans in general. I saw I kind of saw Palestinians in that. I saw the like the story in lots of similarities, lots of just, and the nuances of it, like the fact that, of course we'll get into it way more later, but like if I'd, Kira would call herself a terrorist, like she would say like, I was one. And it's like, yeah, you were, and they explain it.

You know, like there's a reason, and it's not like just cartoonishly good, bad, you know, binaries or whatever. That just blew my mind, really, when I was discovering that. So there's that. We'll talk a lot of DS9, a lot of TNG, a lot of Voyager as well. There was a series of parts of it. I did finish it. I think I clicked with it in some ways and in other ways I didn't.

11:40

Elia: And so I live in Southern England in Brighton, as I said, I'm from Lebanon.

And I'm mostly a writer and researcher, as well as a stay -at -home dad for the most part as well. So, yeah, that's where I am.

carla: And an incredible podcaster.

Elia: Thank you.

carla: Yeah, I think I just wanted to just pick up the thread about just like

the new stuff, including Picard and Strange New Worlds is that what's lacking is they don't have, ,they're not doing 22 to 25 episodes. So they don't have this time and the space to do a different type of story telling that actually is more common in other parts of the world. Right? Like that is not so much just the solo hero journey where it's Um, the Japanese coined it, I think, um, calling it slice of life with their animation, you know, it's the, but it's their storytelling style. It's more, it's, it's more deeper and you just get an invitation into the everyday lives of people. And I agree, those are my favorite. It's like when people make a large brush over, um, Star Trek saying like, you know, it was still too Americaners, whatever. where you got that nuance was in that slice of life days, right? And you might not have got a lot, but there's that one episode of Data really early on, maybe season two or three, where he has the day in his life, and it's around him and the cat, and, and you hear his inner monologue, and he talks about, there's like a Hindu festival happening, and there's all these like multicultural things happening on that ship that has over a thousand people. But you have we have to commit it to hear the nuance that's happening in their world building,

storytelling. And it definitely gets better with DS9 in terms of moving away from monoculture kind of approach to a more, like it's so much more based on a diversity of difference and how we meet across that, which we all need to do more of. The other reason why I'm interested in fantasy and science fiction and particularly Star Trek is because it like it might have hierarchy woven in because of the Starfleet and because of militarism and all that, but the everyday slice of life stories are very anarchist and because they center

relationships and they're not always, but it's pretty horizontal in terms of social

borders and all that stuff. And I think, you know, the future is going to be the

future – many futures are going to be way weirder than we can imagine. And so for me, it helps me process these times and think about our way through, like the Thrutopia kind of idea. And so, but there's this episode on DS9

I'd like to play a clip, just to sort of like be really up front where I'm

coming from with Resistance is Fertile, and and it's from season 6 Episode 25 this clip has no spoilers in it, but yeah I think also we're just gonna have a warning that there will be spoilers on this show

Elia: Yeah, yeah, I think it's good just to tell people like I had spoilers about

Star Trek before watching them and it doesn't matter, it just, it doesn't, it just,

as much as you know how it's going to end, it, for me personally it just doesn't,

they don't do too much suspense and it's not like a big thing on Star Trek, it's

not like their priority, so.

carla: No, because they're trying to, relationships.

Elia: it's enjoyable to watch.

carla: Exactly. So this episode, this is from the episode called "Sweet Sound of Her Voice" And it's when they encounter an S .O .S. from a missing ship for years from a captain from a… Her name is Lisa. And they all spend time with her. And it's right in the middle of like the heavy wars they're in with the Dominion. So they're really stressed

out. And this is the end of it. This clip is where Miles gives the toast about

how they've become distanced from each other and the importance of their

relationships. And so, oh my god, like when I watched it, like in February or

something, like when things were really, it's really continuing to escalate. I don't want to pretend that it's gotten at all better. But there was like a week there, it was like, everything was happening all at once globally, and on a horrific scale, hard to digest level and then I watched that episode and I just was like oh my god like I literally, it was the message I needed,I literally reached out to all my friends at that moment it was like yeah um so yeah we're just gonna play it here.

16:32: CLIP from DS9

Miles: “She was all by herself, and I was surrounded by my friends. And yet,

I felt more alone than she did. We've grown apart, the ot of us. We didn't mean for it to happen but it did. The war changed us pulled us apart. Lisa Cusack was my friend

but you are also my friends and I want my friends in my life. Because someday

we're gonna wake up and we're gonna find that someone is missing from this circle.

And on that day, we're gonna mourn. We shouldn't have to mourn alone.”

Elia: You know, this is gonna sound random, given how deep this is. But I love the fact that he is like, he's not Irish only, but he still, he has an Irish accent,

you know, 300 years in the future, which also like says that they, they, it's not

like back on earth, they haven't all adopted like mono culture, I don't know,

post -Americanized, whatever, you know, it's not. I actually, I really love that

about, and I love Miles in general, Miles O 'Brien. But it's one of those things

that I really, I really enjoyed about, about it all.

carla:Absolutely. You know, the thing with technology right now, and especially with AI, like, you know, it's entrenching individualism, and it's entrenching this notion that we can do things ourselves. And what I've always appreciated about Star Trek is it's deeply collaborative, like Even Data, who's this Android, who has all the galaxy's information at the moment, still collaborates with Wesley and Geordi mostly on problem solving. Usually one of them comes up with the solution, and he helps with his enormous quickness, ability, make, he might implement it, but it's just a really good example of like, you know, I'm gonna give it to Heraclitus because I want to go way back, but the many is the one, one is the many, you know, I know there's been lots written about how there's still the cowboy character in Star Trek and the, the Hero’s Journey is woven in a bit, but it's, it's definitely disrupted a lot more. And I think that's the other reason why out of all all the other shows, like all the Star Wars stuff, and I, I know that there's versions of stuff, but they don't really do that

level of collaboration of doing stuff together.

Elia: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's not a Star Wars podcast, but that's what makes Andor better for me than, than most of the others. There is more of that, you Um, but I, yeah, yeah, I do love that episode. And recently I, as I said, I've been rewatching DS9. And so I watched the episode that I even announced beforehand that I'm going to cry. I said it on bluesky and I did.

carla: Oh my God, that one.

Elia: And I did. And I'm referring to season four episode two, called The Visitor. And the plot of that one, I would absolutely do a deep dive on that one. I will briefly mention it anyway. Something happens in the beginning of the episode and Sisko basically disappears, the captain, in front of his son, Jake. So Benjamin Sisko is the captain, his son is Jake. And the story of the episode is actually kind of Jake's, it is actually Jake's it's not it's not really Sisco’s. Sisco kind of disappears in this temporal whatever. And he doesn't age but Jake does and a bit of a spoiler, but again, it really doesn't matter. It's the Jake finds out that he is the he's the one that tethers his father in that other world and that other dimension. So that's why from time to time, every few years, and it gets like more and more distanced as also Jake gets older. Benjamin, so the captain appears to Jake, but of course he appears to a different Jake to an older Jake, you know, and so on and so forth. And so you see Jake growing old. And the reason we know anything about that life of his is that he's visited by this young fan of his. This woman who really loves his writing and who was, couldn't understand why he only wrote two novels in his entire life. And he would have been at 80s or something by the time she saw him. She met him. And so he tells her the story of why essentially and so on. Like his father wanted him to be a writer, all of that stuff. And it moved me so much because it's not just the father, which I think is a more common trope, like the father sacrificing himself for the child. The child sacrifices himself for the father. And there's so much agency that's given on Jake as someone who, when the event initially happened was young, 18 or something, 17. I don't remember, but like he was very young. And yet he maintained that dedication to find his father well into his 80s. And he did, you know, and that's the thing. That yeah, that really moved me because not only is it like the child and then of course no longer a child, but given this much agency, which is very tricky. But it's a beautiful relationship between them. Which I am, I don't have a

son, but it doesn't matter. And The fact that it's also like it's tender and it's there they're both Black and of course It's not as common even these days but especially at the time to see it like that and it's so kind of like matter of factly, you know It's not they don't even make it a big deal that the fact that It's just like of course that's just how, that's just how things are. And that's normal. And we are just going to show you how it is, and we're going to explore it and going in depth and whatnot. But they don't make it into a something that's like, should shock you or should surprise you. And I remember being surprised by it. Because again, it's not very common. And it's almost like I caught myself like, why am I surprised by it? I'm surprised because of where we live in our world and whatnot. But the point of Star Trek, when it's really well done, is that this is not our world. This is not today. We're not talking about the present. We're talking about the future. It gives you that kind of license, that imaginary license. So I really enjoy the episodes like this, especially, it's so fun when they fuck with time. It's so fun when they do

that. They go back in time and they're like, "What the fuck is happening?"

23:38

carla: Bell Riots.

Elia: But better exactly, The Bell Riots. Exactly. It's a two -parter. But it's like basically, you know, it's a homeless encampment turned into a concentration camp. That's basically what they did, you know, and there parts of the U .S. today that basically are that.

carla: Absolutely.

Elia: And of course elsewhere in the world. But yeah, anyway, all of this to say that when they really try and philosophize, it's really fun. It's really enjoyable and it genuinely makes me think. And that's why like, I love theory and I got into like complicated stuff and whatever in my work as an academic and stuff. And it holds up, you know, and even outdoes it at times, to be honest. Anyway, that's what I enjoyed.

carla: Yeah, yeah. I will definitely want to do a couple episodes on the adult -child relationship, because it's something that runs through all of them, and mentorship in general. But Sisco and Jake have, to me, one of the best tender, loving, unabashedly, physically, like, care driven relationship that is just so, it must mean, yeah, it's so incredible to witness and see disrupts, like, all kinds of toxic masculinity stuff, stuff around anti-blackness, around

vulnerability. I mean, Sisco, you know, he cries and cried all the time about

everything. But the other thing I really loved, I loved that episode too and cried my eyes out, but it's the, what's called, you know, there's a term for it,

it's called "Allo parenting" when community members parent or participate in parenting your kid and that was, you know, that happened both with Wesley and with Jake and it's, I just get it, that doesn't get shown a lot in shows, like it's, you know, it just really kind of disrupts the nuclear family and obviously both scenarios one of the parents died tragically. They didn't even have a new kind of family either situation but which I also just think how they handled it though like brought their kid further into community and brought all these other people around to have an intimate loving caring mentorship

relationship with them is. And of course I love that Jake isn't like you know, it's

not Wesley, right? They couldn't care less about Starfleet not into learning about how to save the world – Wants to write about it.

Elia: He just wants to write

carla: wants to write about the world. He just wants to read which is beautiful but yeah, and I I was also like thinking about these times and I feel really lucky that I just saw this episode. I don't know if you remember it But it's It's the second to last episode, so I have it written down. I guess maybe episode 24th or something, of season seven of Next Gen. And it's when Ro goes undercover with The Maquis Ro is a Borjorian and she has a deep relationship with Picard, and she doesn't want to disappoint him, but she's very, very much in conflict. Her characters throughout the seasons isn't, she doesn't really like the hierarchy, she doesn't like the structure it goes against, the Bajorian ways of being in the world. She predates Kira as a feisty former terrorist. No one tells me what to do, them. And what struck me about this episode, I won't go into too much detail, but she goes undercover and she really connects with one of the humans who's in the Marquis, which is a group of colonists who have now been told they have to leave from the Kardashians and they're being terrorized by the Kardashians, and the Federation also want them out of there because they've made this whole new border lines new borders so whole planet like it's a real deep this is a deep dive, that would be a deep dive too, just how they cut up the actual planets, like whole planets have to move. And this starts first in the Next Gen, but it really plays out in DS9.

And of course, it connects heavily to the Voyager, the Maquis, like this whole dynamic. But what really got me was like, so they're in these all these little cells, resistant cells, so no one can find them. And they're quite this powerful little resistance group, which we need to talk about more of how we're going to deal with fascism, quite frankly. So she infiltrates and she gets in there. And it's not to harm them or anything, or like at least that's not the goal.

But anyways, she meets this one older human who's very, very excited about her and her culture and was really close to some people and they really connect and they're talking about how one day they're when they win they'll celebrate and there's this really beautiful clip where he says to her we should celebrate now let's have our celebration today and that's you

If the Zapatista’s have a message? It's that, right? Like, you can't put, you can't, you can't put joy and celebration off. Like, it has to be next to resistance. And she's just, she's just the love that blooms in her when he says that. Like, and she'd, you know, let's just say she doesn't go back to Starfleet. But like, I swear, like that, It is so vital to connect with people, right? The point is, is that it's not because they were going to celebrate that it went bad, but it completely shifted her into where her loyalty is laid. And I think it's really, even if it wasn't the writer's intentions, it definitely is very informative for right now.

Elia: Yeah, yeah. That's what made me bond with Kira, actually, and in DS9 as well, very similar reasons. It's just the fact that, and this is also, again,

definitely deep dives on that, because DS9 does not shy away from doing religion, you know, and spirituality and culture, and just the two are side by side. There's definitely tension at the two as in that and the whole rationalism associated with like Starfleet, of course, and all of that stuff. From the get -go, like from the first episode, then kind of the entire premise, not entirely, but like some of the fundamental assumptions of Star Trek, of, you know, the linearity of it all, that there are like stages of civilization basically, of course, the Prime Directive, all of that stuff is like upside down, you know, it's just Benjamin Sisco goes into the wormhole and meets the Profits of the Bajorens. And they make him the Emissary. That's the first that it's called that I think even the first episode. That's how it starts. It's not much of a spoiler anyway. And it's so weird to start a start is anything really like that. It's for me is like it this this this almost like was brave. I don't know, like, to take such a risk at something that is so deeply kind of nerdy and philosophical from the get -go, you know, really, really, for me, like, I got hooked, you know, after that. And then, of course, the fact that it just got better and better did not, definitely helped in. But yeah, yeah, that these, this is what you mentioned, right? Like, these episodes specifically. And for me, they hit even harder or whatever, but when I'm when I'm watching the entire thing, like, chronologically, because I also forget, you know, what's the next episode that comes? And that's what I've been doing when I've been rewatching DS9, I'm resisting the temptation to immediately kind of google “what are the best episodes?” and just watch

those because it's not the same. It's actually not the same at all when you're

surprised almost again. There's that also in his enjoy and he's having it and stuff. But anyway, yeah, I just said, lots to say about DS9 specifically as well.

But in general, I'm curious if we can explain or try and explain a bit more,

what is it about Star Trek specifically that, which is also related to like why

we're doing this, like why we're doing this podcast, like what is it about the

episode we're going to talk about and why do we feel they need to rewatch, you know, stuff like that, given our respective trajectories. And I think it's interesting if we can get into them a bit. So also listeners would get an idea of like, you know, we're different generations, different parts of the world, blah, blah, blah, all of that stuff. And yet it's so specific, the, the thing we have in common, right? And it's not the only thing, but like this thing that we do have in common. And how, of course, it relates to our, you know, our anarchism, how, how, what's the relevance of all of this? Because I feel like

that's what also gives it a bit of a, you know, uniqueness in any case, you know, as to why I think this project is quite fun to do as well, and in addition to

hopefully being interesting to listeners.

33:24

carla: Totally, and I think we're actually just being a little bit Star Trek -y, tropey. a little bit. Because one of the things thatI always noticed, they always brought people from different backgrounds. Like those

are the people who had often the best friendships, or like the,

you know, I always, I mean, to me, I just wanna give a shout out to, I can't

remember his name in real life, but Geordi LaForge, yeah. I mean, he is the epitome of what it means to be a friend across difference. He’s the most non -judgment. Like, he's Data's best friend. I mean, it says it all. Never ever ageist to kids, young people. He's just a delighter in everybody. And But you know, he has his own desires and says no to things. And I think, yeah, and just to sort of spring off of there, like, I think, you know, I think I often affirm things more than negate. So like, I know that a lot of people critique Star Trek for, you know, it's just following falling into modernity ideas and enlightenment and prime directive and the ideological views, but,

and it does. And then they'll be like, but all the main characters that go against that, they're just playing out ideas of individualism. And I'm like, are they though? Or are they actually doing something deeper? Like for me, like Picard to me was always ethically responding, not morally responding. And so every time Sisco or him or Westley, it's like anybody. to me pushed against those those ethos those moral guidelines that ran the Federation, to me, they weren't being the cowboy. They were like actually saying no to ideology and yes to the relationships and yes to the ethics of what they're facing and it actually the Prime Directive can't be put on. put on everything and I don't listen to enough people talking about Star Trek because I don't know how many people go into that conversation but it's not that I don't see, like I do see the other stuff too I just there's a like a potential within the stories of Star Trek and you know like you bringing up that first episode of and how brave it was it very much reminds me of Dune right and so I think Like for me, I think the other reason I got really excited about DS9 is it

had that kind of like, yeah, like Ursula, K. Le Guin like this way of like,

really grounding it into the, the ethics of everyday life with the systemic ways

we're getting oppressed to, which is very much to me an anarchist recognition of what's happening in our, in our systems. And yeah, that was all over the place, but…

Elia: no, no. And you mentioned the critiques. And I would say that,

because despite all of the fact that we know this about them, the thing that shocks Quark, who's the guy who runs the bar on DS9, is the fact that the military base does nuclear testing because he is amazed that like,

he says something along the lines of they poison their, they're poisoning their own planet and then he sees that they are smoking like smoking cigarettes and Nog, who's the one who did research on 20th century 20th century earth That is, they smoke these things and it poisons them very slowly and it addicts them and so on and Quark at some point says like let's leave we need to leave this barbaric place, you know and It it reminds. And it was one of those funny moments, of course, but it's one of those things I really enjoy when I watch Star Trek, especially when they, let's say they put an alien species with humans or two different alien species for that matter or whatever it might be. Because that's when I think the writers have a lot or try to kind of experiment even more so. And episodes like that one remind me, or the ones that serve as a reminder, let's say, that I have a lot of assumptions about the world we live in today, that a lot of the things that exist in our world, we take for granted, even when something good happens, we immediately take it for granted, and obviously when something bad happens, it gets normalized, it's sort of the shifting baseline syndrome– and we'll do a deep dive on shifting basements and all that, I'm sure. it just it destabilizes that right? It upends it a bit. It's just it's one of those things that it reminds me in very concrete ways that the futures that they are depicting and you can put aside the alien stuff in whatever but the future that they're depicting just doesn't feel far -fetched. It doesn't feel like it would take too much for humans to get there, and whatever there is, that horizon, and I'll say even that horizon has to be it, of course. But it's just, yeah, it's a necessary escape, but of the best kind. It's one of the things. I don't withdraw from the world when I'm watching Star Trek. I'm more kind of pausing it in order to reframe certain things. It's how I understand it anyway, how I experience it

carla: I love that. I love that. I definitely am not escaping the world either with it, but I am getting a break from it. Yeah. But it also affirms my belief systems over and over and over again. And especially when I just rewatched

The Next Gen, So thinking back how I watched that in my early 20s mid 20s,

and I was like, oh, wow Like wow, yeah, that really watered some seeds Like yeah inspired some line of flights in my not just thinking but like actual proxies

and I feel Um, not to give it too much weight, obviously, but like, I mean, it's what I do… I wrote a whole essay on magneto, the potential of magneto as being a symbol for youth autonomy. So it's what I do. And I always, you know, just not to go down that rabbit hole, but mutants in general, I always had, an affinity to it's probably the other world of popular

stuff stuff that I connected with, but…

Elia: Hence your connection to Spock and Data, you know?

carla: Right.

Elia: Which I definitely relate to as well.

carla: Yeah, and I definitely wanna do, you know, obviously, let me get to this in a second of our next episode that you did. But I really wanna, yeah, I wanna spend some time talking about just how different characters are coded before society was ready to even have the conversations. And how I also want to reveal some that I don't think are necessarily the ones that get coded, not the obvious ones. I want to spend some time talking about and just like where the gaps were like around mental health and neuro

difference in the storytelling.

Elia: Yeah

carla: so look forward to that because I don't wanna give any more away about that 'cause I've been gathering notes from many episodes from different iterations about this one. But I will give one quick shout out to the

writers and the creators of Star Trek over time for really reaching the young,

of any age, but especially the young person who feels othered and it feels like they don't belong. And like this is even a shout out to Discovery, the story of Spock. Finding out that Spock is dyslexic because I have cognitive disabilities and definitely dyslexic. And I'm a writer, it's really hard.

And I have speech apraxia. And to have a character who's seen as that capable and that brilliant, he can see patterns. He's special as a Vulcan because of his dyslexia. Was just, like I literally cried. And then like,

I was trying to, I feel emotional even bringing it up. So yeah, shout out to the

writers. Like no one knew that I had all that, I mean, they knew if they paid

attention, but they didn't know. I didn't, I was never diagnosed as a kid. I just

didn't do well.

44:16

Elia: Yeah.

carla: You know, so I, yeah, I'm really grateful for. -

Elia: This is, I think would be also a deep dive in and of itself, but I can safely say in a weird way that Data led to my autism diagnosis. It, it was part of a chain of events. But the episodes, especially, you know, of course, in The Next Generation, where the people around him are explaining stuff to him, nicely, kindly. Yeah, some of those I got really emotional, because there were times, especially growing up, where it would have just been that

simple, had someone just done that. And I remember, of course, like, you know, high school bullying and stuff like that, that a lot of the time was really something that most people assume, like the reason the fact that I didn't get it, get the thing or the cue or whatever it might be or the joke, usually, of course, was the source of, you know, really acute and stuff. And I wish I knew about, I mean, TNG, you know, I'm, I'm 34, so TNG was around at the time, I would have probably benefited a lot from, from getting into it more, more so at the time, but even DS9, but yeah, so it's, it was one of those things that I will bring up one more episode, maybe for the purpose of this recording, the, I guess, one of the most famous one,like The Measure of a Man, a TNG season two episode, something. The plot of that one is basically, so Data, of course, being an Android, some scientist comes on the Enterprise and says that he wants to dismantle Data. Because, you know, he wants to see the creator of Data, what he feels that he can replicate Data. It feels like he can get to a point where he can have more Data’s And Data, of course, rejected it. And there's Picard who comes to his defense and all of that stuff. But then it gets into an entire kind of, it's a court scene, it's a court drama. It's a fascinating episode. I've seen it so many times. And the first officer, so Riker has to actually argue that Data is not sentient, he doesn't want to do it. And that is part of the tension. He hates the fact that he has to do it, but he's forced to do it by Starfleet. And among the many things, and we'll do deep dive on that specific episode, but the reason I'm bringing up here is specific like just now, among the many things that kind of proves his personhood, his sentience, is the Is the random things that he does that don't make sense?

One of the stuff that proves it is that he has this souvenir of a former teammate who died, Tasha, and he says that they had a relationship, actually, at some point, something like that. And it reminds that episode among those when it's really well done, when it comes to especially Data, who he is my favorite character. He's just so enjoyable to watch. It gets really good when it's brought up by a Guinan. so she's the one at the bar. And the fact that there's a bar, the fact that there's a counselor who's like, of course,

is what's her name?

carla: Diana Troy.

Elia: Of course, of course. Yeah, a Betazoid. The fact that she's among the she's the crew, she's among the most important ones, most when they do high ranking meetings, they have the counselor with them. It's like, this is so it's so random, but also it's amazing. It makes so much sense that they need someone who can feel and being that's that's a that's hoping

of being a Betazoid and so on. Anyway, that's a bit of a hidden diversion.

Guinan, who she's a Black woman, but not a human, anyway, played by Whoopi Goldberg, tells Picard that don't you see why there is an interest in having many more Datas? You can have an entire army effectively or a subclass of persons that can do everything and have no rights, of course.

And Picard looked at her, Picard being an older white man, looked at the Black woman and says, "You're talking about slavery," you know? And he had this realization that she tells him that. And so it's just these, you know, I guess it's like maybe one minute scene, you know? It's not even the main thing in the entire episode, because it doesn't, that's not what does it. That's not the thing that, that leads to Data actually having rights as a person and so on, by just those things that they take a detour, that's not a detour, you know, and they can easily just make it more kind of exciting and just keep it into a courtroom, courtroom drama and, and whatnot. But it's like they don't, the writers didn't find that interesting enough, you know, and I'm deeply grateful for that.

50:00

Clip from TNG (Guinan and Picard)

Guinan: They do the dirty work. They do the work that no one else wants to do because it's too difficult or too hazardous. And an army of Data is all disposable. You don't have to think about their welfare. You don't think about how they feel. Whole generations of disposable people.

Picard: You’re talking about slavery.

Guinan: O think that's a little harsh.

Picard: I don't think that's a little harsh. I think that's

the truth.

That's the truth that we have obscured behind the

comfortable, easy euphemism property. And that's not the issue at all, is it?”

carla: Yeah, I love that. I love that Data helped you see yourself and find yourself.

Elia: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, same. I know it was Spock for especially like an older generation. I didn't get into Spock as much and I think because I think I

got too spoiled with special effects and graphics and just how things got as of the 80s onwards that it got more difficult for me to, To not to forget that there's a cardboard box and you know, the makeup is weird, you know stuff like that. But that's just that's just a me problem.

carla: No, I mean, it's true I and I know that both of us, I haven't for years. but like I did read fanfiction because I always wanted more. like I read one where Data does become full human and It was really exciting! So if there's people there listening who are reading those, send us recommendations.

Elia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have been reading some recently as well. It's been enjoyable. Because I just wanted more as well. It's the same reason, I guess.

carla: Yeah. So this is our first episode. Just wanted to like, thanks for being with us and listening to us kind of meander through the Star Trek verse. And it,

yeah, we're gonna also invite folks on to talk who are also into it,

but maybe who knows, who knows who will show up in the guest seat and sometimes it will be both of us doing those conversations and sometimes it will just be one of us. And including. I think probably our second episode is an example of just one of us. So maybe you could speak to that?

Elia: Yeah, yeah, I sat down with Jesse Gender who is the host of the popular YouTube channel called Jesse Gender. And she's a massive trekkie, and she's the one who got me into DS9. I told her this as well in the episode. And yeah, so we talked about a video essay that she had, that she released on her YouTube channel called "The Stories That Fascism Fears Most." And it goes through like a bunch of different things, the tricks and stuff like that. And DS9. DS9 is the Star Trek one that she focuses on. And yeah, I guess that's all I'll say at least at this stage, it's, it's a conversation about the stories that fascism fears most as the title suggests, it's pretty straightforward. And DS9 features prominently in that. There's a critique of Picard in it, but it's not that important. The TV series Picard not the character. But yeah, it's DS9 focused, let's put it that way. We do talk about non -Star Trek stuff as well as the broader conversation, but there's very much a Trek -y sense centering of Star Trek, which is how I enjoy doing things anyway.

carla: Yeah, for sure. I'm interested in Star Trek being the backdrop,

and it's called "Resistance is Fertile" because that's what we're saying.

Elia: And I should explain, should we explain the title? The Borg says, one of the alien species that assimilates forcibly assimilates entire civilizations into a kind of a, I guess, a model after the most extreme form of totalitarianism, like thing Nazis and even more so, basically, like they don't have individuality at all. They think collectively in this Orwellian sense, actually, I guess that would be a better comparison. And there's a Borg queen, so it's a bit like ants in the colony, anyway. And the thing that they keep on saying as they are assimilating an individual or an entire civilization is what not, is resistance is futile. And so we are, of course, rejecting that and saying that Resistance is Fertile. That's how this came about. Very proud of that title.

carla: Yeah, and I mean, it's what, I mean, it's definitely Picard's story throughout. Yeah. Right up into even the new Star

Trek Picard. But it also runs really heavily in Voyager, obviously, major.

Elia: Yeah, yeah. The Borg. Yeah.

carla: And yeah, and I'll definitely weave in more stuff about autonomy. There's lots of stuff. There's lots of minutiae in the relationships and around mentorship and around friendship and autonomy, like how to create that thriving resistance disconnected from a power, a certain kind of systemic state power is the lenses I look through, but also like, you know, how Star Trek has a queerying element of storytelling in, you know, a

weirding way.

Elia: And absolutely. That was a big part of the conversation with Jesse

Carla: Yeah, that's why I didn't bring it up earlier. Yeah. And yeah, we can get into the symbionts, the Trills and the whole so much about the Trills.

Elia: oh yeah so much to say about the Trills It's one of my favorite things. It’s so fun!

carla: same same. I pivoted for a while, felt more like Trill than Vulcan. That's more me. I'm more multiple, way too emotional for Vulcan.

Elia: Well, that's what made Spock special, of course.

carla: Right, because he was half human.

Elia: Yeah.

carla: And so thanks for listening. And we're not sure how and when they'll come out. This is our joyful podcast.

Elia: We'll do it as often as we can. We will set up a Patreon, which I mean,

we'll be out by the time this is out. So it will be in the show notes. And

obviously, if you can, we will not complain. We will try and do it as often as we can. But it is also, it's also, you know, it is time and so on. We'll do our

Best.

carla: Totally. Yeah. Make it so. Sorry.

What's Michael saying? Let's fly.

Elia: I don't even remember.

carla: I think it's "Let's fly." I did like Michael a lot. P .S.

Anyway, thanks everybody.

Elia: Thanks everyone.