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Coaching transitions, with Joerg Sauer
Episode 1631st July 2023 • I'm Back! • Serena Savini
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Serena talks with Joerg Sauer, ACC ICF Coach and a leader that is empowering individuals, teams, and organizations with coaching. Currently, Joerg is the CIO of a multinational company in Indonesia. He is also the community leader for Morphosis Coaching Indonesia. In our conversation, we discussed why coaching is so important within an organization, how coaching can create a safe bubble to express yourself and discover yourself, and how can coaching really transform your life.

You can discover more about Joerg here:

Transcripts

Serena:

Today we are having a conversation with Jörg Sauer, a coach and a leader

Serena:

that is empowering individuals, teams, and organizations with coaching.

Serena:

Currently Jörg is the CIO of a multinational company in Indonesia and

Serena:

is doing coaching, internally within, his organization and also outside.

Serena:

Thank you.

Serena:

Yorg is also a community leader for Indonesia for what was his coaching

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and is promoting coaching in Indonesia.

Serena:

In our conversation, we discuss why coaching is so important within an

Serena:

organization, how coaching can create a safe bubble to express yourself

Serena:

and to discover yourself also in our work environment, and how can

Serena:

coaching really transform your life.

Serena:

Thank you so much, Jörg, for being here with us.

Serena:

It's really a pleasure.

Serena:

And I would like to start with the first question that is,

Serena:

what does it mean I'm back for

Joerg:

you?

Joerg:

Yeah.

Joerg:

Hello, Serena.

Joerg:

Thanks for having me.

Joerg:

I'm happy to be here.

Joerg:

Thank you for inviting me.

Joerg:

What does it mean for me to be back?

Joerg:

I think

Joerg:

back is being, being present to myself and having taken the first step and, and

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maybe to explain that often I'm, when I'm overwhelmed, when I have too many

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things on my mind, I need to get ready.

Joerg:

And that takes some time and back is, yeah, when I, when I've overcome

Joerg:

that and, and when I have taken the, when I've taken the first step.

Serena:

And how difficult it is for you to take the

Joerg:

first step?

Joerg:

At the.

Joerg:

It depends on the situation.

Joerg:

So sometimes for me is, is more about feeling ready and that

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can be, can be different things.

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So sometimes I need to have my thoughts kind of sorted out.

Joerg:

sometimes I need to be in the right emotional state.

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Often it's getting a trigger.

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So there is, I'm, I'm kind of not moving, feeling stuck and then something

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happens and then it's, it's really easy.

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so it's, and it just comes out of nowhere and yeah, now

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the time is right and I step.

Joerg:

So it, it depends.

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but, the more, the more frequently I do steps, the sooner I feel back.

Joerg:

So that makes sense.

Serena:

I'm really curious about the concept of being ready.

Serena:

can you give us some ideas on how to feel ready when you are maybe lost?

Joerg:

So,

Joerg:

ready.

Joerg:

So I think it's, yeah, it's, it's very, very contextual or situational.

Joerg:

so it's, it's, it's about.

Joerg:

It's often about confidence or reassurance.

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And for me, as I, as I mentioned before, it's, it's often about having

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all the bits and pieces in place.

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So I'm a person who,

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who, for example, reads books from cover to cover before I start acting on them.

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Even if I get thousand ideas, I need to have the full picture and then I move.

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And, and if I try to do.

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It without it, then it feels kind of more difficult.

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so being ready for me is, yeah, that, as I said, right.

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So that things I have maybe spent a lot of enough time on, on thinking it

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through from different perspectives, maybe sometimes just the amount of time

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passed where maybe, until I, I, I feel it's enough and that's very subjective.

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or where I still having these kind of nervousness in my stomach, or in my

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guts, but I feel excited and energized now to, to do that step, right?

Joerg:

So, as an example, I was, I do a lot of hiking and, and, there

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are a lot of waterfalls here.

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And, there are some, you can, you can jump in right from a higher rock.

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And, if it's really high, it really takes some courage to do so.

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And maybe I have been at this waterfall five times and never jumped.

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And then suddenly I, yeah, I still super nervous, but I just jumped right.

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So it's that, yeah, it's, having this, this, this confidence that now is the

Joerg:

right time and the right moment to do so.

Serena:

I really like the metaphor of.

Serena:

Taking the jump.

Serena:

And I'm curious about, you are right now a coach, how was the

Serena:

jump to start to become a coach?

Joerg:

So that was something which just, I don't know, came to my mind.

Joerg:

First of all, being coached myself.

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So I had the, the lack of, of, of, being poached and, I, for myself, I know

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that finding solutions when I'm stuck talking helps, and it's not about that.

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I need somebody to play back something to me.

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It's about just having somebody to talk to, because when I.

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Then need to verbalize my thoughts.

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It already gives me a lot of insights by, by translating

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thoughts into language, right?

Joerg:

So it provides clarity and, having been a leader focusing on, on

Joerg:

people and teams for quite a while.

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And basically saying that kind of realizing that my success as a leader

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comes from my focus, my predominantly my focus on individual teams and the systemic

Joerg:

issues in Oregon in the organization kind of was a natural transition for realizing,

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okay, maybe I should go beyond trainer, facilitator and mentor, and, and use

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a different, use a different approach.

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And, it turns out that this is, that has been even more powerful,

Joerg:

than I have thought it would be.

Joerg:

And in retrospect, if I would have, I kind of think I should have

Joerg:

started coaching years earlier.

Serena:

I have the same feeling.

Serena:

I was the transformational journey of becoming a coach and

Serena:

now coaching change your life.

Joerg:

I think it was surprisingly easy and maybe I'm, I'm lucky in a sense

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that I I have the platform, so I'm an internal coach, within my organization.

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I also coach externally, but I predominantly coach internally.

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So basically finding clients was easy, because they were

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just in the organization.

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and, in this regard, I was also lucky because, as an

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ex commember, I just talked.

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My boss said, I think I want to do this coaching and is it okay if I do it?

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And, he also believes in coaching because he has experienced that.

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So he was very open to that.

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So there were no boundaries or obstacles in this regard to get started.

Joerg:

what the, the, the main challenges of, being a leader, both on the technical

Joerg:

side from a coming from an expert level, as well as from, from, from a mentor

Joerg:

for a very long time, becoming a coach was to forget all about that, right?

Joerg:

So it's not about me knowing things.

Joerg:

It's about, me understanding the client and then helping the client to create

Joerg:

awareness and, and, action actions.

Joerg:

so not knowing was, The biggest challenge for becoming a coach and,

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yeah, the resistance or fight the, fight the impulse to, to give solutions

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because, what, what works for me doesn't necessarily work for the client.

Joerg:

And, we all know that in, in coaching that the transformation

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aspect of coaching comes from not telling, but from realizing, and

Joerg:

then, having your own motivation to.

Joerg:

Take the step, right?

Joerg:

and the actions.

Serena:

And as you said, you are, top manager in a big multinational.

Serena:

And I was wondering, how is the coaching practice within an organization?

Joerg:

For me, it's something all in from all organizations should do.

Joerg:

and that's for For two realizations, which came to me, to my, came

Joerg:

to me since I'm doing that.

Joerg:

The first thing is if you, if you have a coaching practice from within the

Joerg:

organization, there is more, I would say there is more commitment of owning it.

Joerg:

And, and also really Truly wanting to change and positively influence what's

Joerg:

going on in the organization, both on the, the, the, the staff level.

Joerg:

Right?

Joerg:

So basically dealing with the individuals, but also on the, on the systemic issues.

Joerg:

so what?

Joerg:

So basically transformation from within.

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And it's not just a business model.

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It's basically part of, it's, it's part of the DNA.

Joerg:

It becomes part of the DNA of the organization.

Joerg:

the second thing is that, while I was aware that when I do coaching, I

Joerg:

influence it or I help individuals, right?

Joerg:

So I make an impact on individuals.

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And once you make an impact on the individual, you also make an impact

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on the surrounding of the individual.

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And that, hopefully change things for the better and reduces a lot of pain.

Joerg:

what I, what I actually was really surprised to realize is that it gives me.

Joerg:

So much more visibility of what is going on in the organization and

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what is kind of broken and what needs to be addressed, as a side effect.

Joerg:

Right?

Joerg:

So, if I wanted to get the same level of insight in the organization, it

Joerg:

would become, it would be a more than a full time job because I

Joerg:

would need to be In these, all these different situations, I would need to

Joerg:

observe all these different things.

Joerg:

I would see all these different dynamics at play, which are kind of

Joerg:

colloquially shared by me from a client without particular intention, right?

Joerg:

So I'm just listening.

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And while listening, I, I, I get, I get so much information about

Joerg:

what's going on in the organization.

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And then you hear things from one client and you hear a different

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thing from another client.

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And then suddenly it's kind of like, wow, there's a relationship.

Joerg:

There is a connection.

Joerg:

There is a, Yeah, there's, there is something broken.

Joerg:

and, so, and that's super powerful and, and organizations not having an

Joerg:

internal coaching practice, most likely, missing out on, on that big time.

Joerg:

And, the two main realizations I had, within my organization and I think,

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and, and now I'm, I'm talking with.

Joerg:

Yeah, with others outside of the organization about that realization

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and I, I kind of get the confirmation that it's not just a, a problem here

Joerg:

is that, we are, we are providing a lot of opportunities for individuals.

Joerg:

For example, by means of promotions or by getting into new roles, right?

Joerg:

So, meaning stepping out of your department, getting into

Joerg:

a different department and taking a different role there.

Joerg:

And then, we fail to set up the people for success.

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and that creates a lot of pain and, it, it creates, it, it impacts also

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the, the organizational performance and, ultimately People, our team

Joerg:

members leave the organization because, they cannot handle it anymore.

Joerg:

And, so with good intentions, basically, we, we create a problem and, yeah.

Joerg:

So, and I think that as, as a coach, I can alleviate this pain for the individual

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and then as a leader coaching in the organization, I can then take that out of

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my coaching practice and bring that in the organization to, to influence the changes

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we need to make at the organizational level, be it local or regional or global,

Joerg:

depending on what kind of corporation you are in, in order to, to fix these.

Joerg:

Problems, long term, right?

Joerg:

so basically, yeah, that's, that's my, maybe the biggest takeaway for me.

Joerg:

As a leader, stepping out of my traditional leadership mentoring role

Joerg:

into a, into a coaching practice.

Serena:

From my experience, big organization, really

Serena:

focusing on performance on, fast environments on, results.

Serena:

The quick wins and coaching.

Serena:

On the other hand, it's around slow pace, reflection and exploration.

Serena:

How can you balance this?

Serena:

Two seemingly, two perspective that seems so different.

Joerg:

So my stand is, success and work life balance is possible.

Joerg:

And that's my, so I truly believe in that and I live that.

Joerg:

So in this regard, it, it kind of is natural to me to bring that

Joerg:

aspect into my coaching practice.

Joerg:

So, And you are right.

Joerg:

Many of my clients are feeling overwhelmed.

Joerg:

They are being stressed and they are very much focused on the work aspect

Joerg:

and they don't necessarily see the, the balance aspect because it's about the

Joerg:

performance and, getting things done.

Joerg:

Right.

Joerg:

And, so what I, it, Do as a coach is focusing not just on the cognitive

Joerg:

side of things, but I also focus a lot on the, the emotions, the

Joerg:

notions of, of energy in the room.

Joerg:

how that shifts because that tells me a lot.

Joerg:

About, that there is maybe something else going on.

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and then I, I, I poke, right?

Joerg:

So I, I poke emotions and I poke the energy shift, and then I see, what

Joerg:

the, how the clients respond to that.

Joerg:

And, and by,

Joerg:

going there, basically it opens the door for the client to realize.

Joerg:

That there is more to the dynamics experience than just, what, what's kind

Joerg:

of obvious on the surface or on the cognitive level and that their emotions,

Joerg:

their level of energy immediately impacts the dynamics of, for example,

Joerg:

interactions with teams, interactions with stakeholders, negotiations

Joerg:

of results, influencing others.

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And, by creating that, a different level of awareness here, and then

Joerg:

also helping the client to understand the importance of these aspects and

Joerg:

action and identifying actions around that, including, maybe being true to

Joerg:

the emotions, being open about the emotions, realizing remotions in others,

Joerg:

realizing energy shifts, that basically helps a lot of two things, right?

Joerg:

Reducing pain and stress and, basically solving, solving a lot

Joerg:

of the challenges or the problems.

Joerg:

the client is, is coming to me and, and wants to get, wants to get solved.

Serena:

I was lucky enough to do coaching session with you.

Serena:

And I was always so impressed by your ability to, recognize this energy

Serena:

shift that I was not able to recognize.

Serena:

For and on myself, and it's so difficult for me to recognize my own energy shifts.

Serena:

But when you were, mirroring this during our coaching session, this opened really

Serena:

an awareness and a door to accessing emotion that I was afraid maybe to access.

Serena:

And so I'm wondering if.

Serena:

doing coaching within an organization is.

Serena:

Difficult, also because we are maybe trying to protect ourself

Serena:

from, potential, arms and so we are repressing our emotion and the,

Serena:

your ability to Pick on the energy.

Serena:

It's an accessible way for people to go beyond and see, okay, there

Serena:

is an emotion underneath, even if I'm regressing this emotion right

Serena:

now, because I need to survive.

Joerg:

Yeah, yeah, you are right.

Joerg:

So, but I don't know.

Joerg:

why that happens to me, but, and, I'm, I'm grateful that it does.

Joerg:

so when, when clients contact me, right, either being referred

Joerg:

by, by, by the leader, Hey.

Joerg:

I would suggest for you go for coaching for particular reasons or,

Joerg:

or they are interested themselves.

Joerg:

And they, they contact me and say, I want a bit coaching.

Joerg:

What happens a lot is that, they are opening up very much in the first moment.

Joerg:

So I had, I had clients crying in the intake session.

Joerg:

I had clients, crying throughout, in, in various moments during

Joerg:

the coaching, Practice.

Joerg:

And, I'm not forcing that it's, it's kind of natural kind of emotions coming

Joerg:

out because there is so much kind of pain, suppressed pain within them.

Joerg:

And just by having somebody who is listening, Already kind of opens

Joerg:

of the flood floodgate, so to say, just to release this pressure.

Joerg:

And we know that, crying is releasing pressure.

Joerg:

It's a mechanism to release pressure.

Joerg:

And I'm grateful that they do.

Joerg:

and, And it's about providing as a coach by providing the safe space and the trust.

Joerg:

And I'm really grateful that me as an excom member, I'm not perceived

Joerg:

as an excom member when I'm coaching.

Joerg:

I'm perceived as Jörg, the human, the coach, and I can hold the space

Joerg:

and then they are feeling safe.

Joerg:

And, so what.

Joerg:

And it's not about just crying.

Joerg:

It's about all sorts of emotions, right?

Joerg:

So being able to just release attention and, and, and, and share

Joerg:

what's on your heart and soul, right?

Joerg:

Or in your gut.

Joerg:

And, so by, by coaching, by coaching also, Emotions.

Joerg:

And it's not about just performance, right?

Joerg:

Because if you're coaching performances in the organization,

Joerg:

it's always about performance, right?

Joerg:

So that's what's always happening.

Joerg:

And the focus is there.

Joerg:

So taking a step back and, and not focusing on performance, but focusing

Joerg:

on, on the humans in front of me.

Joerg:

And, and also allowing them to start looking at the human

Joerg:

in front of them, right?

Joerg:

Because if We are all interacting with humans, right?

Joerg:

So if they have a conflict, if they want to influence somebody, if they want

Joerg:

to get the team perform, if they have expectations, it's always an opposite.

Joerg:

It's always a human opposite of us.

Joerg:

And if we, if we start realizing we are humans immediately, there is

Joerg:

emotions, there is feelings, there we

Joerg:

create that, that awareness for self, and then also from the awareness of others.

Joerg:

it's, it's, it's, it's really, it's really powerful.

Joerg:

And so I'm at, so what you were sharing is, and I take it from there that you

Joerg:

maybe wanted to go to that aspect, right?

Joerg:

So how do I become comfortable of letting go?

Joerg:

How do I comfortable of being emotional, but not.

Joerg:

just triggered now anger or frustration, but kind of sharing,

Joerg:

Hey, you know what you were just saying is hurting me or, your joke

Joerg:

is, putting additional pressure on me.

Joerg:

How, yeah.

Joerg:

And, or I observe that you seem to be now agitated or I feel you are.

Joerg:

I feel you are disappointed.

Joerg:

So having these kind of conversations in a maybe potentially toxic environment.

Joerg:

so, first off all, if, if somebody experienced something in a, in a, in a

Joerg:

safe environment, like a coaching session.

Joerg:

Maybe opens up or potentially opens up to do similar to try similar things outside.

Joerg:

and, a lot of the, the actions which arise on, out of our coaching sessions are

Joerg:

about, First of all, reflective exercises.

Joerg:

So realizing your, your emotions, your feelings, your thoughts in certain

Joerg:

situations, and then also about awareness about the others, right?

Joerg:

So what do I observe is happening in others, right?

Joerg:

When I do X, they respond Y and, and then step by step going to

Joerg:

the, to the next level that you are basically, that they are.

Joerg:

not just having the awareness, but then also actively doing something

Joerg:

about it by sharing, Hey, I'm, I'm now getting frustrated about

Joerg:

because what's going on here.

Joerg:

Can we talk about that?

Joerg:

or, realizing that you need to take a breath and just cool down and, yeah.

Joerg:

and that immediately, changes the dynamics.

Joerg:

And everybody can take their own speed, right, or their own level

Joerg:

of how far they want to take it.

Joerg:

and, I, I always kind of have this, this concept of creating bubbles, right?

Joerg:

So, and, and in the coaching session, I create this bubble of a safe space.

Joerg:

And when you step out of a coaching session, you can create a bubble.

Joerg:

For example, with one person you trust, right?

Joerg:

And then there is this bubble of two people and that

Joerg:

bubble can then maybe grow.

Joerg:

So in the beginning it's maybe one person and then it's maybe to two

Joerg:

person and then it's maybe the whole team and then it's maybe, yeah.

Joerg:

So and, and, and, and in, I think in, in organizations we always talk about, yeah.

Joerg:

Psychological safety and, and, and safe spaces or, and as an

Joerg:

individual, we can create that.

Joerg:

And me as a coach, I can create the awareness that certain things are in

Joerg:

the control of the client to do at the level they want to do at their

Joerg:

confidence level they want to do.

Joerg:

And then based on, the original question, when do you feel you are back?

Joerg:

And it's, it's about taking these actions for me, right?

Joerg:

So every time I take a step and nothing bad happens out of that,

Joerg:

I'm getting more confident in taking bigger steps and maybe, or running

Joerg:

faster and then going more, more, yeah, I'll go doing more of that.

Joerg:

So it's kind of, it's, It's a very powerful, powerful realization and

Joerg:

that's why I feel it's, it's, it's applicable also in the most toxic

Joerg:

environments, because it's in what you can control and it's not about

Joerg:

what others want to impose on you.

Joerg:

And

Serena:

for me, it's also connected to the fact that.

Serena:

You are not alone, even when you feel alone, and you can always

Serena:

talk with someone or to share with someone, even if you feel that

Serena:

it's not safe to, to share things.

Serena:

And I see that, on my own experience, because when I had my accident at work.

Serena:

and I came back to work.

Serena:

I was feeling really alone, feeling that I could not talk with anyone

Serena:

because I was scared to be judged or that consequences may come.

Serena:

And, and slowly I realized that, a lot of people were experiencing similar

Serena:

things from different perspectives.

Serena:

So for example, people that were coming back from maternity, people with a

Serena:

new role, people with personal issues.

Serena:

But it was impossible somehow.

Serena:

We were all isolated.

Serena:

It was impossible to create those bubbles because we were all scared.

Serena:

So my question for you is, do you feel that it's really possible to create?

Serena:

an organizational culture based on creating less pain

Serena:

and creating more bubbles.

Joerg:

So is it possible?

Joerg:

So I've created throughout my career, right?

Joerg:

I have created bubbles, and now I'm trying to create bubbles by means

Joerg:

of coaching before I have created bubbles by other things, right?

Joerg:

So, yes, I, I strongly believe, bottom up or.

Joerg:

Bubble approach is, is possible, because it's all about, it's, it's

Joerg:

all about the individuals, right?

Joerg:

So an individual who is more positive, who looks for opportunities rather for, is a,

Joerg:

for who sees opportunities rather kind of thinking, I cannot do anything, is always

Joerg:

able to influence the surrounding, right?

Joerg:

And what is a bubble by.

Joerg:

if it's not influencing the surrounding, right?

Joerg:

And, and you can, you can, everybody can do that.

Joerg:

And I know that many people don't see that.

Joerg:

So for me as a leader, it has always been, and the mentor has always

Joerg:

been about creating the awareness.

Joerg:

you can influence your, your surroundings.

Joerg:

And as a coach, it's, it's even more powerful because, you are not influencing

Joerg:

basically You are creating awareness and actions, which are basically

Joerg:

originating from within the client, right?

Joerg:

So it's not, and I'm helping to, to, to create that awareness and

Joerg:

realization, but the, the motivation for change is already there because

Joerg:

the client going into a coaching session already has a goal, right?

Joerg:

They want to achieve something.

Joerg:

They, they are clear matters of success, so it's, it's basically somebody who just.

Joerg:

Um, And with coaching, we, we enable that, right?

Joerg:

So are we empower that, and, in a more transformational way, right?

Joerg:

Because if you can do that now for this, in the, in, in this particular

Joerg:

situation, you can do that in any other situation in the future, most likely.

Joerg:

And that's really transformational.

Joerg:

the, the.

Joerg:

The other aspect is maybe I pick on, on, on what you were saying

Joerg:

about, the fact that you weren't aware that you are not alone, right?

Joerg:

So you, because it's all isolated, right?

Joerg:

So different people, different aspect at different experiences, and then you feel,

Joerg:

okay, I had the accident, but the other one is coming back from maternity leave.

Joerg:

And how is that, how is that related?

Joerg:

Right?

Joerg:

So you don't see the relationship here, right?

Joerg:

Or relatedness here.

Joerg:

So.

Joerg:

In this regard, coaching practice in the organization can be really powerful.

Joerg:

If you do, for example, group coaching.

Joerg:

if you do individual coaching, it's about the individual.

Joerg:

And then as a coach, you realize that there are these thoughts, right?

Joerg:

And then you take them out, for example, that you need to establish mentoring

Joerg:

as a practice, which is not just horizontal, but going across, right?

Joerg:

So that's the realization for me as a, as a coach in organization,

Joerg:

what kind of things I need to it.

Joerg:

I should or we should address as an organization to, to, to reduce the pain.

Joerg:

whereas when it now comes to group coaching, so, you have an overarching

Joerg:

topic, for example, team performance or, leadership for newly appointed

Joerg:

leaders, or it can be any topic, right?

Joerg:

and then you have a group coaching session and of course in group coaching.

Joerg:

For those who don't know, you still coach the individual and then, yes,

Joerg:

we'll have a one on one conversation in the room where are more people,

Joerg:

more than one person, right?

Joerg:

Because the others are there and they are just listening

Joerg:

and observing what's going on.

Joerg:

And then they come to the realization, Oh, Yeah.

Joerg:

Same problem here.

Joerg:

Yeah.

Joerg:

And, oh, I'm, I'm, but you know, I did that.

Joerg:

And then it's also the sharing, right?

Joerg:

when I experienced that, I was feeling like this and I did this.

Joerg:

And, so basically it's a, it's a group learning experience.

Joerg:

It's a support.

Joerg:

And then you also create a supportive network, so to say.

Joerg:

And, and then, and it creates the, the understanding that,

Joerg:

First of all, we are all human.

Joerg:

secondly, we are not alone because there is basically almost everybody

Joerg:

having the same or similar, problems.

Serena:

But I know I want to change, Group coaching into bubble coaching.

Serena:

I think it can be really powerful.

Serena:

And while I was listening to you, it came to my mind an experiment that I read.

Serena:

I think it was from our but I'm not sure right now.

Serena:

The experiment is called still.

Serena:

Mother, I think.

Serena:

And so they did this experiment with, the mother and a little child.

Serena:

Initially, the mother was really responding to the child, and the

Serena:

child started to mirroring, the mother and, and then the mother, stood still

Serena:

without showing any emotion in front of the child and the child basically

Serena:

did everything that, he or she could to regain the attention from the mother,

Serena:

like crying, like screaming, like not giving any clue and this kind of thing.

Serena:

And I'm talking about this because I see Similar things, in organization, meaning

Serena:

that when you are not feeling recognized, seen, heard, appreciated, you can act,

Serena:

in different ways, like being aggressive, not performing, and other stuff.

Serena:

And I really see the recognition and the ability to see the other person as the

Serena:

fundamental pillar of every organization.

Serena:

And at the same time, it's something that is still missing in most organizations.

Serena:

How can coaching within an organization work on this?

Serena:

Need of being seen, being heard, being recognized.

Joerg:

Yeah, I, I'm happy you mentioned that.

Joerg:

because that's, that's an overarching scheme in many of

Joerg:

the clients I'm, I'm coaching.

Joerg:

be, being them referred to me or, from the leader or, self selected.

Joerg:

And,

Joerg:

the,

Joerg:

so the

Joerg:

first, the first thing which, which I experienced is that it's the

Joerg:

many of them are coming forward for the first time or for a long time.

Joerg:

Maybe they, they, they talk to somebody years back when they first kind of

Joerg:

felt overlooked or not appreciated or so meaning overstep when, for example,

Joerg:

when it comes to promotions and then at some point they just gave up.

Joerg:

So just kind of, nobody's listening to me and it doesn't,

Joerg:

it doesn't change the feeling.

Joerg:

And, and, and those are the, those are the ones who didn't leave

Joerg:

the organization because of that.

Joerg:

Right.

Joerg:

So, because I'm assuming that many just left the organization

Joerg:

because, if you, if you feel not appreciated, underrated or whatever,

Joerg:

at some point, maybe you just leave.

Joerg:

Right.

Joerg:

so meaning being, so.

Joerg:

For them, it's, it's, it's the first time for a long time where, where, where

Joerg:

they speak about that again and where somebody is truly listening and, and

Joerg:

the coaching session gives that space.

Joerg:

Right.

Joerg:

And then they realize, okay, I told the coach, I can just share that.

Joerg:

Right.

Joerg:

And that's a, that's a first step and often comes in the, in the, in

Joerg:

the first coaching session where we talk about the, the topic, the

Joerg:

coaching topic, the coaching goals, and then how we make a success.

Joerg:

And, often it's kind of related to, how do I get the, the promotion I am,

Joerg:

I, I feel, I, I deserve to get right.

Joerg:

But it's not about the.

Joerg:

Promotion.

Joerg:

so yes, that's maybe the end goal, so to say, but, it's more about

Joerg:

the sustained trauma, which, which develops out of that and the behavioral

Joerg:

patterns, which basically lock us in.

Joerg:

right.

Joerg:

So, and it's, it's a lot.

Joerg:

And what I experienced here is that there is a lot Outside of

Joerg:

the, which is contributing to that it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a past

Joerg:

it's, it's kind of conditioning.

Joerg:

It's, it's fears.

Joerg:

Right.

Joerg:

And, and the, the interesting thing for me is that, it's very much possible

Joerg:

to stay in the coaching realm and still address these, these issues.

Joerg:

And, and, and in this regard, it's also really, really transformational because

Joerg:

once, the, the, the client realizes, oh, I need to change my behavior.

Joerg:

I need to, to voice my desires.

Joerg:

I need to manage my, I need to manage my expectations.

Joerg:

I need to be explicit about my expectations.

Joerg:

I need to understand my, my supervisors or my organization's expectations

Joerg:

just to, to mention a few, right?

Joerg:

So, and then how does this relate to my experience outside of the office?

Joerg:

How do I, how do I operate in the, in the, in my personal world?

Joerg:

Why am I able to do things there?

Joerg:

And I'm not able to do things here.

Joerg:

So just to, to, to put that in on the table, as, as examples, once you.

Joerg:

Once you go there and once you open the door for the realization, and

Joerg:

once a client is taking baby steps or leaps, towards that, it's really

Joerg:

transformational and, and, and super powerful in two regards, right?

Joerg:

First of all, The people who have been, all the clients have

Joerg:

been referred to me, right?

Joerg:

They transform in such a way that their leader is coming to me and say,

Joerg:

look, it's a different person now.

Joerg:

And, and, how powerful is that one?

Joerg:

So, and, and then it, it basically helps them to deliver that,

Joerg:

to get to their goal, right?

Joerg:

So now they are feeling appreciated.

Joerg:

Now they are rewarded now that, and, and, and, and this is,

Joerg:

yeah, for me is so, powerful.

Joerg:

So.

Joerg:

Providing me as a coach so much energy and joy.

Joerg:

And that's why I love coaching.

Joerg:

And, and it's also, yeah, it's, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's so empowering

Joerg:

for the client, and, and so impactful beyond just their, their individual role.

Joerg:

And then even if they realize, This organization is not for me.

Joerg:

My happiness is most likely somewhere else, right?

Joerg:

Yeah, that's also the right thing to do, right?

Joerg:

So for me as a coach, I don't hold anybody back, and, and to be in the organization,

Joerg:

if that makes a person miserable, right?

Joerg:

So meaning creating these, creating a safe space and being

Joerg:

transformational, About, that's, that's really, really, really powerful

Serena:

and it's really powerful also for me because, many times in my career

Serena:

I felt, not good enough or not performing well or, wrong for the team dynamics.

Serena:

And it took me a lot of time and a lot of pain to understand that if I was not the

Serena:

right person in that, in that environment, it didn't mean that I could not be the

Serena:

right person in a different environment.

Serena:

So it was always hard for me to change, to take the jump that we were discussing

Serena:

before and to change the organization because I felt guilty, ashamed.

Serena:

Again, it's not good enough.

Serena:

And so I'm wondering if coaching within the organization can also work on

Serena:

exploring your needs for your environment.

Serena:

And if yes, what does it mean if the person is Then deciding to

Serena:

leave the organization and you are doing internal coaching, let's say.

Joerg:

So,

Joerg:

where to start and where to stop?

Joerg:

I think the, the first aspect or the first realization to create or to

Joerg:

help to create is that Looking back

Joerg:

versus being where you are and looking into the future.

Joerg:

What is the, what is looking back doing to you and what will looking into the

Joerg:

being, being, being aware of what's going on now and, looking into the future,

Joerg:

make a different height.

Joerg:

And once you, once you establish the realization that

Joerg:

if you remain in the past.

Joerg:

You.

Joerg:

You will continue to experience a pain, there will be a lot of

Joerg:

negativity and very little hope or outlook into a brighter future, right?

Joerg:

That's already a first, the first kind of step and, and that, that

Joerg:

one can be achieved in my opinion.

Joerg:

So in my experience can be that realization to a certain

Joerg:

extent, at least can be achieved pretty, pretty much quickly.

Joerg:

So now, now it's about asking the question about, okay.

Joerg:

Based on the situation, which, which you're just sharing with me or based

Joerg:

on the change in the organization, which is just now happening or what

Joerg:

kind of opportunities can you see?

Joerg:

So it's about shifting the focus from all bad or difficult or all

Joerg:

impossible or all too painful to, okay, there is an opportunity.

Joerg:

And once there is a realization that there is an opportunity,

Joerg:

then immediately you can have the conversation about, okay, what kind of

Joerg:

actions or steps do we want to take?

Joerg:

or do you want to take in to order to seize that opportunity?

Joerg:

And, and having And finding actions, right?

Joerg:

So finding steps one can do is super powerful because then you,

Joerg:

okay, now I can do something.

Joerg:

And because a step is something you do.

Joerg:

So basically it's what you are in control or the client is in control

Joerg:

rather than, what, what is constraining you from, from an environment or where

Joerg:

you have the dependencies on others or where, where you don't any control.

Joerg:

So creating an awareness of, okay, here are opportunities and and opportunities

Joerg:

often are being perceived off.

Joerg:

Okay.

Joerg:

Opportunity, something big and huge and then creating the realization or

Joerg:

as opportunities also something small, which is just in front of me rather

Joerg:

than, 10 years out or 10 kilometers out.

Joerg:

Okay.

Joerg:

Oh, there's an opportunity just in front of me.

Joerg:

What can I do in order to seize that?

Joerg:

And then taking this step and then, oh yeah, that, that gives kind

Joerg:

of already a lot of, of, Yeah.

Joerg:

Positive energy.

Joerg:

And then during the coaching practice, right.

Joerg:

In the six, six months or nine months where we, where we work together, yeah.

Joerg:

Or partner together, then, you having all these tiny moments and

Joerg:

positive experiences that, yeah.

Joerg:

Which, which makes you move.

Joerg:

That, that, that's, that's, yeah, that's basically also, shifting,

Joerg:

getting away with a lot of this perceived kind of negative, pain

Joerg:

and also, hurtful past experience.

Joerg:

And then when it, when you come to the realization that.

Joerg:

for me is this is not the right environment, right?

Joerg:

So then, yeah, it's also powerful because if you realize that you are in

Joerg:

the wrong environment, that you are in the wrong environment can be many things

Joerg:

can be, you are in the wrong role.

Joerg:

You are, you are, you are in a, in the wrong department, you

Joerg:

are in the wrong organization.

Joerg:

you are,

Serena:

you have the wrong leader.

Joerg:

You have the, yeah, so meaning sometimes it's beyond repair and then

Joerg:

as even if sometimes in an organization, we can provide solutions, right?

Joerg:

So we can move things.

Joerg:

And as a, so I, as a, as an internal coach and internal leader, I can always

Joerg:

offer, To step out of the coaching role and maybe, and ask for permission.

Joerg:

If I can bring a particular organizational problem, for example, to the HR

Joerg:

department or in who's a leader, right?

Joerg:

In order to find help finding solutions.

Joerg:

But, so meaning many people, unfortunately.

Joerg:

Stick to that.

Joerg:

They, they remain in toxic relationships.

Joerg:

They, yeah.

Joerg:

So, so many, we see that all across the board in, in, in life that people

Joerg:

stay within something which is not healthy for them because they don't

Joerg:

see a way out or they feel that this is a given and that cannot be changed.

Joerg:

And if as a coach, I help to provide the realization that this is not

Joerg:

a given and it can be changed.

Joerg:

And then the change is outside of the organization, no bad feelings, right?

Joerg:

So, because for the organization, it's also not good, right?

Joerg:

So having somebody who is wrongly positioned It's not, cannot be in the

Joerg:

interest of the organization, right?

Joerg:

So in this regard, there is not even a conflict of interest for me as a

Joerg:

leader, coaching somebody and creating awareness that this organization

Joerg:

is not, this role is not for me.

Serena:

And if I'm thinking about my own experience, I've been there.

Serena:

It was so hard for me to leave some toxic work environment because

Serena:

I was feeling not good enough.

Serena:

And if I was not good enough, where could I go?

Serena:

and so, I said to myself, for many months and also many years,

Serena:

unfortunately, Okay, I can stay here because the things that I'm experiencing

Serena:

here, I'm going to experience them anywhere else because it's on me.

Serena:

in the coaching practice, do you feel that, the client can also go beyond?

Serena:

Some self-limiting beliefs that are trapping the clients in,

Serena:

toxic partner partner pattern or, things that are not useful for the

Joerg:

client.

Joerg:

I, I.

Joerg:

So I just had a, a session with, my fellow coaches, last week and, one realization

Joerg:

was my limiting self limiting beliefs.

Joerg:

So I, I am aware, right?

Joerg:

That self limiting beliefs is something which is very human.

Joerg:

We all have that.

Joerg:

And, that's maybe coming back to your statement earlier, right?

Joerg:

Or your question earlier about feeling alone.

Joerg:

So we are not alone.

Joerg:

And in this regard, self limiting beliefs is Basically something

Joerg:

which one observes in almost every coaching practice, if not in every

Joerg:

coaching session to a certain extent.

Joerg:

so going there and playing that back to the client is, is, yeah, it's

Joerg:

basically what happens all the time.

Joerg:

and coaching is only successful if, Some of these self limiting

Joerg:

beliefs, can be changed, right?

Joerg:

And because that's transformational, right?

Joerg:

If I have a self limiting belief and I change that, belief, then,

Joerg:

it's, it's transformational.

Joerg:

And

Joerg:

And that's why I also feel that, staying on the, going on the, on the

Joerg:

bodily and emotional side of things.

Joerg:

So basically having, having, having, an integral approach to coaching

Joerg:

where you also do somatic practices and things, but it's, it's kind of,

Joerg:

It's kind of very important when it comes to these self-limiting beliefs

Joerg:

because we are having now talked about taking the step more in a, in a

Joerg:

more, kind of, I, I miss the word now.

Joerg:

hypothetical or rhetorical way, right.

Joerg:

But taking the first step, literally.

Joerg:

Right.

Joerg:

So standing up and taking a step or doing a jump.

Joerg:

or, yeah, that, that's something which, which can be really powerful when

Joerg:

it comes to, to your beliefs, right.

Joerg:

And, and coaching.

Joerg:

Yeah.

Joerg:

In coaching, we, as a coach, you always need to go there.

Joerg:

of course, right.

Joerg:

So if that self limiting belief is, is because of a, of a deeper lying issue.

Joerg:

Right.

Joerg:

Then, of course, we need to be cautious of that because we should not do any harm.

Joerg:

And then maybe need to refer to a, to a medical or mental health specialist

Joerg:

or trauma therapy or whatever.

Joerg:

Right.

Joerg:

So, but, in, in most.

Joerg:

Case is the, the self limiting beliefs are not coming because of, of

Joerg:

trauma or mental disorder or disease.

Joerg:

It's, it's more like the conditioning we have been experienced.

Joerg:

And, and that, and because we Of this conditioning, we tend to,

Joerg:

to behave in certain situations the same, in a similar way.

Joerg:

And then it kind of creates the similar experience, which then,

Joerg:

yeah, basically, is a, reassuring loop, self reassuring loop.

Joerg:

Okay.

Joerg:

The situation is like that.

Joerg:

And as a coach, we offer the opportunity and the possibilities to

Joerg:

step out of this, out of this cycle.

Joerg:

and then create positive experiences, which then help the

Joerg:

client to work on these on these self limiting beliefs, right?

Serena:

You are, the community manager for Morphosis Coaching in Indonesia.

Serena:

what is your experience with coaching in Indonesia?

Serena:

And do you think there are cultural things that are connected to the

Serena:

development of the coaching culture there?

Joerg:

so first of all, the coaching, the coaching scene in,

Joerg:

in Indonesia is very active from an ICF Jakarta chapter perspective.

Joerg:

So there is a lot, there are many new coaches coming.

Joerg:

So the community is growing, the members, the members are very active

Joerg:

and, just this year we are having a program, on to make sure to, to.

Joerg:

About, what is it, called Entrepreneur.

Joerg:

Entrepreneur for coaching.

Joerg:

So basically that a coach can make a living out of, of coaching.

Joerg:

So it's basically professionalizing the coaching practice.

Joerg:

that said, the challenge in the market, so is that coaching as a practice is

Joerg:

not very well understood and is also perceived, is kind of, related maybe.

Joerg:

Two are seen in the same area as mental health professionals, and

Joerg:

there is a huge taboo around that.

Joerg:

So basically a lot of, yeah, objection or kind of, Perception that, I don't

Joerg:

need a, you don't need a coach.

Joerg:

You don't need a therapist.

Joerg:

You don't need a counselor.

Joerg:

You just need time or you just need to pray or whatever it is.

Joerg:

Right.

Joerg:

And then the family, the family needs to support, can support you

Joerg:

despite the fact that the, the, the society is also undergoing change.

Joerg:

So traditional, traditional, Setups like the bigger family or bigger

Joerg:

extended family also now, falling apart, especially in urban areas.

Joerg:

And, the modern lifestyle also is not necessarily contributing to,

Joerg:

to, to, to mental health and, and, and, and, and reducing stress.

Joerg:

And, and coaching is kind of put into the same, same bucket, right?

Joerg:

So, you don't need that.

Joerg:

so, so, and that's a, that's a challenge we are.

Joerg:

We are facing as coaches and we are aware of, and there's a lot of, things

Joerg:

going on in order to, to create a different perception of coaching.

Joerg:

a lot of community events, which are around explaining what coaching is,

Joerg:

but more, more importantly, which are.

Joerg:

Create an experience of coaching.

Joerg:

So basically running through coaching sessions, and, and other events.

Joerg:

so now as a, as part of the, international coaching week, for example, we will

Joerg:

be running, Individual and, and group coaching sessions within the

Joerg:

enterprises, corporate enterprise.

Joerg:

So the understand to establish a better understanding what coaching is there.

Joerg:

there were different communities, where we are tapping in and doing

Joerg:

similar kind of kind of activities.

Joerg:

And, it's definitely an underdeveloped market.

Joerg:

and, there's a lot of potential for.

Joerg:

For creating awareness, about what coaching is and how it benefits either in

Joerg:

the corporate world, as well as, outside of the corporate world for individuals.

Serena:

Before closing our conversation, I was wondering if you have.

Serena:

Something to say to our listeners that maybe are really struggling

Serena:

right now in understanding how to come back to work to their career,

Serena:

to their life, to themselves.

Joerg:

We touched on that one already.

Joerg:

You are not alone.

Joerg:

and however hard.

Joerg:

or difficult it feels or it is to you, open up to somebody you

Joerg:

trust and maybe consider coaching.

Serena:

I think it's a great pleasure for our conversation.

Serena:

Thank you so much, Jörg.

Serena:

it was a pleasure.

Joerg:

Yeah.

Joerg:

Thanks, Serena, for having me.

Joerg:

it was a very, inspiring conversation.

Joerg:

Thank you very much.

Joerg:

Thank

Serena:

you.

Serena:

Thank you so much for listening to this conversation with York.

Serena:

if you have found it interesting, please feel free to share it with

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