Dr. Christina Bjorndal, ND is considered an authority in the treatment of mental illnesses such as depression, anxiety, bipolar disorders and eating disorders using a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual approach. Having overcome many mental health challenges, Dr. Chris is a gifted speaker and best selling author who has shared her wellness philosophy with platforms such as the Jenny McCarthy show, the International Bipolar Foundation, and many health summits and docuseries. She is recognized as a top ND to follow by two independent organizations. Her book “Beyond the Label” is a comprehensive guide to naturopathic mental health. 

Books by Dr. Chris Bjorndal on Amazon

Connect with Dr. Chris and learn more about her work:

https://www.drchristinabjorndal.com/

https://www.facebook.com/drchrisbjorndal 

https://www.twitter.com/drbjorndal

https://www.instagram.com/drchrisbjorndal

https://www.naturalterrain.com/

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A Podcast Launch Bestie production

And

we're alive and this is a, a part two episode.

So, uh, before we get going, Dr.

Chris, thank you for coming back.

Uh, had a great chat last time and it was, to me it was one of the more

personal and, um, Like impactful episodes that we recorded in the first season.

So thank you so much.

It was great.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And for those who didn't catch it yet, go back to episode eight in season one it's

episode eight of the podcasts is with Dr.

Christina Bjorn doll.

Who is an authority in the treatment of mental illnesses, such as depression,

anxiety, bipolar disorders, and eating disorders, using a physical, mental,

emotional, and spiritual approach.

She's overcome many mental health challenges herself, which

we talked about quite a bit in the, in the previous episode.

And we'll get a little bit into that today.

Dr.

Chris is a gifted speaker and bestselling author.

Who's shared her wellness philosophy with platforms such as the Jenny McCarthy

show, the international bipolar foundation and many health summits and docu series.

And, uh, she's recognized as a top MD to follow by two independent

organizations in her book beyond the label is a comprehensive guide

to naturopathic mental health and.

The reason you're back is because we didn't really even get into that.

So we spent the whole first episode really just sharing our kind

of mutual experiences with, uh, lifelong depression and suicide.

And, um, it's, it's, it's quite a heavy episode.

I'll throw that out there.

But I think for anybody who has struggled with.

Uh, those things in their life, it would be a good listen or for those

who have people in their lives who have struggled, which that would

probably qualify just about everyone.

Um, it's a, it's a really candid discussion that I think, um, you'd be

best served going back to check out.

So again, that's episode eight and then today, uh, We didn't get into

like the healing arc of the story.

It was mostly just the depression and the suicide attempts and that,

and like really the struggle.

And today we're going to talk more about how you kind of.

Found your way through and found naturopathic medicine and how natural

pathic medicine ties into mental health and mental health challenges and, and

where its role is in the greater approach of treatment to, to mental health.

So, uh, today's going to be a bit more positive and

uplifting and educational and.

Uh, I'm excited to have that discussion.

So I guess let's just jump right in.

Now you had a different career.

Before, which was in something finance, right.

Or marketing or sales or

marketing in

finance.

Okay, perfect.

Wow.

That's like a double whammy of things that are stressful.

So, uh, and what was so you'd had, and we can just do a quick.

Recap of what we did in the previous episode.

Cause like, if people are listening right now, they're probably not going

to jump back, start that one come back.

So, um, if you want to just really briefly bring us to.

You're tipping point or your switch point from when this isn't

going to work anymore, whatever was you're like light bulb switch.

Aha.

The abbreviated version to get us there.

I was working in the, in the investment management

world, but I was wearing that mask most days that okay, I'm out.

I'm okay on the outside, but I wasn't doing very well on

the inside and I was taking.

Five psychotropic medications to manage my mental health.

And so the diagnoses that I had were bipolar disorder

type one, depression, anxiety.

And then I also had this eating disorder, which was kind of on the side burner.

So the tipping point for me not to start off on a, on a, you know,

on a down note, but really was this suicide attempt that I'd had.

And when I opened my eyes and I came out of the coma, I was pretty

choked that I was still here.

And so I realized that, okay, I need to figure out another way to navigate this,

this journey of life and the taking all these medications that I was taking.

Wasn't really getting me to this place of joy.

Um, That's when a friend suggested that I see a naturopathic doctor and there

was this Canadian health food sort of trade show that I was going to, I went

to, and I saw a flyer about, um, uh, public forum for mental health regained

and regained your mental health.

I think it was.

And so I went to this and I learned about nutrition and this

term called ortho molecular med.

And then I went to see this psychiatrist who prescribed

primarily supplements to help people.

Um, so I started his protocol and I carried that along with all

the medication that I was taking.

And then I had my first year where I felt like depression was lifted.

I felt free from that for the first time in at least 15 years.

Uh, so I knew that there was something to it and I know that

there was lots of people struggling.

And so that's when I started thinking about, well, what else

could I be doing and, and looked into, how could I help people in

the same way that I had been helped?

Once somebody has been in depression long enough, or

with some sort of, I don't want to call it a mental illness or condition,

but like you've been in one way of experiencing life for a really long time.

And then all of a sudden it's a little bit different.

Uh, it's really bizarre.

Like it's, it's disorienting.

It's ungrounding it's like, what is this?

I, I describe it as like, my life kind of went from black

and white to color a little bit.

And it was that big of an adjustment of like, oh, wow.

I don't feel like doom.

So I can imagine that was quite an eyeopening experience.

Orthomolecular medicine?

I'm familiar with the term?

I believe there's a Dr.

Anderson.

Paul Anderson.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm, I associate orthomolecular medicine with that guy and

I know very little else.

Uh, is it like functional medicine is an umbrella term that would describe

pretty much any integrative approach?

I would think at this point, Can you give like a brief of like,

what is orthomolecular medicine?

Yeah, I mean, it was coined by Linus Pauling and the 1960s,

and he won two Nobel peace prizes.

He did a lot of work on vitamin C, but orthomolecular just needs the

right molecule for your individual.

And so it's basically supporting the nutritional environment

of the body for whatever that condition you may be addressing.

So from like with Paul Anderson, he, I think is more in a cancer person.

So he'd be looking more at the vitamin C piece and for the mental

health, it's more looking at the higher doses of the B vitamins and,

often higher doses are prescribed, but that doesn't always have to be.

So some people have the misunderstanding or misperception

that it's, you know, mega dosing.

It's not, it's not necessarily.

So it's just basically making sure that you're supporting the individual

environment from a nutritional perspective, with the right molecules.

Uh, supplements that

they need.

Okay.

So the high dose vitamin C that I've read about for like certain types

of cancers or that came out with the recent pandemic, people were using

high dose vitamin C, that kind of stemmed from orthomolecular medicine.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

I think that's where.

Got on the little bit of the bandwagon that I'm on.

I think that's how I found it.

So.

Okay.

So you, you had this experience, you started taking these supplements

mixed with like you didn't stop the medications, you're doing the

supplements and the medications, and then you thought light bulb.

Maybe there's a thing I can do professional.

Because you knew that that wasn't your jam, what you were doing, right?

Like that was not, didn't want to do that.

No, I, I, I didn't want to do that.

I really found that environment, quite soul socking.

And, uh, and I remember asking myself this question, if money didn't matter,

What would I be doing with my life?

And the answer that cuts come and be at me, it wasn't like I just,

you know, asked this question once and it had asked, you know, how to

act it on the one answer on a whim.

Like I asked this question repeatedly over the course of a year and the same

answer kept coming up, you know, go back to school, study orthomolecular

medicine and learn how to help people in the way that you you've been helped.

That voice, which I think, you know, was coming from my intuition or my soul or

my spirit, if you will, was be quickly squashed by the voice of fear saying

what, you know, you can't do that.

You can't put your job.

You know, you you've got this really highly coveted job

at that time.

Approximately 32.

Yeah,

but I did.

Uh, and, and, uh, it, you know, I had to go back to high school because I

didn't do the science prerequisites.

The first time I did more of an arts to be so back to high

school, back to university.

And then, um,

and then daunting, that's a daunting road to look at.

Similar because my bachelor's was in history and education and my

master's is in exercise physiology.

And I didn't have, um, a handful of the prerequisites and it was like, oh man.

So I got to go to school just to be able to go to school.

Cheers for you, cheers to you for going through with it.

If there's anybody out there listening, that's been resisting, doing something

they feel drawn to doing because they see that here's two people who have.

Yeah.

And the time goes by faster than you think of a,

it does.

And, and I think when you're doing something that's in concert with your

soul's intention, then the universe opens the doors and, you know, it's,

it's, it's not, as you know, there's not a lot of struggles on that.

Right.

Um, but I mean, I'm not going to sit here and say, you know, it was like super easy.

It, it was, you know, it was

not, you did the pre-recs you went back and back to

school, then, then the naturopathic.

Doctorate program.

And so you finished that sometime around what?

The like 37 38?

No, 39 39.

Yeah.

I don't know how long your medicine program was, but it's

so you're about 40 and you're in a new career, a new profession.

Now during that time of, in school and going to naturopathic school, I'm

guessing more things happened than just, uh, going to school regarding your,

your depression and your mental health.

Like.

Did you make some more changes you had done the supplements.

You were still on four or five meds, you said like, um, what happened

with all of that while you were

going through?

Yeah.

Yeah.

At some point I then tapered off the antidepressants and the antianxiety

Alytics that I was taking and I maintained taking a mood stabilizer.

Um, But much lower, like a much lower dose.

And that's, that's an important, uh, piece that I want people to understand

is that, you know, it's not always the goal that there's no medication, you

know, it's not necessarily this or that form of medicine, but it's this and that.

And you can have less medication, which makes your life a lot more manageable

often from a side effect perspective.

So, um, so I tapered off quite a few and was just left with

the one mood stabilizer, which, which I have to say I wasn't.

So maybe this isn't the best thing to say on air, but I

wasn't super compliant with it.

So for many months and periods at a time, I would just be

taking the nutraceutical support.

Um, but the interesting thing that came out of.

Uh, my studies was we had to analyze our diets in second year nutrition.

And one of the things that I was deficient in from a nutrient

perspective was tryptofan.

All I know is that it's in Turkey.

Cause people say, that's why you get sleepy after Thanksgiving dinner.

Right.

So I know it chipped a fan is, and I know what it does, but I

don't know a lot of food sources.

Uh, it's mostly animal foods.

Yeah, and so I had been a vegetarian and I was

the most efficient in this one.

So it's an, it's an essential amino acids.

So what that means is you can't make it.

None of us, nobody can make it.

We all have to get that from our diets.

And the key thing about it is it goes on in the body to get converted to serotonin

and serotonin is the main neurotransmitter that's often implicated in depressed.

The whole reason, the selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors or SSRI medications

were created was to increase serotonin.

So it was really eye-opening to me, um, that I'd experienced all this

depression and I wasn't, you know, I had some holes and big cracks in

my nutritional foundation, which the supplements helped to fix.

The crack, but I think if we want to talk about root, cause we really have

to make sure that we're asking people, what are you eating or getting an

understanding of what they're eating?

Because if you're deficient in tryptofan, then really me taking those supplements.

If I went off of those cells, Then I probably would have ended

up back in the pit of depression.

Again, it's no different, right?

It's, it's no different than taking an SSRI

and they call them supplements, not replacements.

So like, uh, I I've run into that a lot with clients myself in the past

that were like, they wanted everything.

That they needed to come from supplements and didn't want to know, change the food

or eat, you know, differently or whatever.

And it's like, well, I'm getting it in this.

And I'm like, yeah, but do you want to keep taking $500 a month of

supplements and get all your nutrient?

And like, even if you do that, you're missing cofactors and

you're missing, you know?

So, uh, so you had to make some pretty big dietary changes and

you'd been a vegetarian for a long.

Well, so that's when I did start to switch back and

have a little bit of protein again, like I'm not a vegetarian now,

did you notice a shift right away or?

Oh gosh, I can't, I can't remember.

I can't remember now.

Cause this is like, you know, 20,

we won't, we own date ourselves.

Um, but, uh, yeah.

So you made some dietary changes.

Added to the supplements started tapering down or off a lot of the medications.

So that probably just reconfirmed a reaffirmed that you were on the

right path, kind of, you know, both professionally and going to

do what you're doing, but also like taking care of yourself.

now how is your mental health during that many years of school while

you were making that transition?

Was it.

Yeah.

It was good.

I mean, there were some moments of definitely of like the stress piece

played a role and impacted me not actually from the depression perspective, but

actually from the other perspective.

So I, I, um, I ended up actually having a manic episode, um, Which was, we

don't need to really get into it, but so that, that was more of the concern was

sort of ramping up versus ramping down.

Interesting.

Okay.

And diet supplements.

Um, were there any lifestyle types of things that you learned about in school

or that you started to shift at that.

As well.

Yeah.

So the other big piece was learning basically mindfulness and, um, learning

how to pay attention to your thoughts.

And so that you're, you know, you can learn to manage your mind.

So you're not at the mercy of it.

And so that was something for me that was really important because I've

been quite, um, immersed and absorb.

With my thoughts versus being able to kind of have this more

bird's eye view, if you will, and separate myself from my thoughts.

So that was a big piece as well.

Where'd you learn the mindfulness practices?

Have somebody teach you or books or?

There was a counseling portion of our curriculum, and then

I worked with a naturopathic dot.

Yeah, this was his trained

in mindfulness.

That's brilliant.

And doctors should have counseling.

Training.

I, I know, I think most naturopathic programs in the states have some of it,

uh, I don't believe any MD programs do.

Not that they'd have time to actually utilize it as they see patients for

about six minutes at a time, usually in a normal appointment, but, um, I

think that that's an essential part.

You know, when, and we mentioned this in the first episode, both of us

have gone through, uh, Gabba Monte's compassionate inquiry training.

And he was a physician who transitioned to doing more therapy kind of work.

And, um, he had to self-teach himself, uh, because he didn't have

people to refer to or anything.

And he said that, you know, it's astonishing to him that doctors aren't.

Trained in this because people come in and like, you need

to be able to relate to them.

You need to be able to understand them.

And then.

You need to be able to instruct or suggest or recommend to each person in a way that

that person will receive, uh, so lots of skills there that I think a lot of

medical professionals miss out on, but the, the mindfulness piece is, is huge.

That's been really impactful for me too.

And I can tell that when I don't feel good, I'm caught in those loops.

Um, we think we are our thoughts.

Like we don't realize that we're outside of those, those loops and those

patterns and the way I've been taught, it's like observing the thoughts is

no different than observing a smell or something you're looking at or

a taste or something on your skin.

It's just like another sense.

There's some Buddhist traditions that actually call it.

Our sixth sense is thought.

And that really helped me kind of realize like, oh, I can step back.

From this and like, oh, I'm having these really anxious thoughts.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what's important too.

Is this other, like connecting that to this other piece with just that psycho

neuro immunology piece, that basically is a big, fancy word to say that

your thoughts affect your physiology or the hormones that get produced.

So it's, it's a little bit of a chicken and an egg problem for some people, right?

So you might have a negative thought and, and then.

Creates a neuropeptide.

And then that neuropeptide effects the hormone that gets produced,

which then affects how you

feel.

Yeah.

And the stress it gets, uh, it's the producers, you know?

Yeah.

Eric and suppressed immune system, or it can blunt neuro-transmitter.

Is that like yeah.

And it's, but then the other way, if those things happen, then it can lead to more.

Uh, challenging thoughts, right?

Like it's kind of like a feedback loop that needs to be disrupted.

Yeah.

And I know for me, uh, I think I was really resistant to this

because I felt like if you had said to me, oh, Hey Chris, uh, you know,

change your thoughts, change your life.

Um, I would probably have rolled my eyes at you and walked out of the room.

Right.

Because I felt like people were implying that I was intentionally

causing myself to suffer.

Uh, you know, on purpose.

And I really felt like I, I was, like I said, I felt like I was, I

couldn't, I felt like I was one with the thoughts and I couldn't, I couldn't

differentiate myself from them.

So I want people to really understand that you don't have to believe every thought

that you have, but understand that the thoughts that you do have affect the

physiology, which affects how you feel.

So if you can shift to a thought, you don't have to believe it, but shift with

thought that's more supportive of your.

And recognize that the guy often say this about suicidal thoughts, that, okay.

If a suicidal thought comes your way, that's a red flag.

Just in that instant, in that moment, you're not being very kind to yourself.

I mean, cause that is the ultimate worst, you know, crappy thing to do.

Yeah.

So, and you can follow that thought if you want all the way down the garden path,

or you can just stop and recognize, okay.

That's, you know, that's not a great thought.

So what's something else in this moment.

We don't have to believe it, but at least think it because if you think

it, that physiological cascade will be different within you, which will

ultimately over time shift, how you feel.

Yeah.

I was also an eye roller at those, uh, statements because.

The people, the books and they meant well, and it's true to an extent like

it's, I think it's more nuanced than just like, oh, think happy thoughts.

Like I think it's cause then yes.

And because the thing that you're turning away from is there for a

reason, and like, it needs to be addressed at a deeper level of like,

why do I keep having this thought.

So it's not like think of happier sot and pretend like that doesn't exist.

And it goes away forever, which I think I see quite a bit of actually

in the spiritual communities and things of that nature where they're

just like, oh no, that's not a thing.

I'm going to go over here and be happy.

That's not going to work.

Like you still need to go over there and figure that out.

Yeah.

In the moment you're saying like switch the thoughts, switches

the physiological cascade.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, and you're right.

It, depending on, because a lot of us have trauma, right.

A lot of us have these really.

Seated and sometimes not really understood on the, you know, the level of the, of

the conscious mind, like some of these things, especially if they've happened,

when you knew her before the age

of like you're also adopted, right.

That's right.

Yeah, me too.

And we talked about that in the first episode and that would be

something that's pre conscious memory

that's memory, for sure.

Right.

And, and not always do.

You know, you can't solve problems on the level of the conscious mind always.

And so that's where being able to, you know, move into the subconscious

mind is, is really helpful.

And, and that's where I think therapeutic approaches like

compassionate inquiry can get into that.

Just that.

Yeah.

And so, okay.

So there's mindfulness, there's supplements.

There's weaning off some of the matters you're feeling good.

You get through school.

Did you have the intention of finishing school and then

primarily focusing on mental.

Yeah, that was the goal.

So you knew, you knew like from day one, this is what I want to do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which made school a bit challenging.

Right.

Cause he had to study everything.

Right.

So it's like, I don't really want to learn about exzema.

I don't really want to talk about asthma know, so I, yeah,

I had that one intention only.

Interesting.

I guess I'd like to show you wrote the, why was your book published

2017

now.

Okay.

So about four years ago.

So sometime between, when you started practicing in the book, so when you

first finished school, you were not, um, A well-known resource on mental

health and naturopathic medicine.

So you build your practice up and that was what your primary focus was.

And, um, I guess I'm curious over the years you've worked and

we talked before we went on air about how busy your practices.

So I know I can do some math and probably project out that you've worked with

quite a few people, uh, in the last 15, 20 years, however long that's been.

Mostly mental health.

Uh, I would guess is the reason people come to you.

So what kind of few questions?

What are the biggest.

You know, needle movers.

Now I know everybody is unique.

And so the one recommendation isn't going to be the cookie cutter for everybody,

but like a few big things that really you've seen really move the needle for a

lot of people that they come to you and they're not doing this, are there, they

are doing something that you asked them to have them stop, or you shift diet or

something like what's, what are a few of like the big, heavy hitter needle

movers that you've seen in your practice?

So, well, one of the big ones.

Is the nutrition piece.

A lot of people, I mean, I know this is going to sound super simple, but a lot of

people are drinking way too much pop and way too much coffee and not enough water.

And as simple as that sounds, it really is.

I see it in every single patient.

So just shifting that alone is,

is especially for those.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If you're gonna have anxiety, really coffees, uh,

I I've, I've shifted over the years.

I lean more towards anxious instead of depressed the last several years.

And I've noticed I can tell immediately if I overdo it with caffeine,

I'm just like, oh, I don't feel.

Now I'm anxious.

And I run for the CNN, uh, cell phone pro tip over caffeinated takes some theonine.

It can help blunt that, but, okay.

So switching something simple as far as, uh, sodas and coffee

and things like that versus.

Um, it warms my heart to hear you say pop.

I get made fun of here in California for that I'm from Chicago and we say pop,

but I've, I've like forced it out of me to where soda comes out naturally now.

So, um, I just smile every time I hear somebody say pop.

Cause if you say pop around here, everyone looks at you.

Like they don't know what you're talking about.

You talking about your dad.

So, okay.

So switching beverage to water, which seems overly simple, but

is something people could do.

What else do you got that you've seen?

And the other

piece is making one meal a day.

So your place.

So if you would divide your plate in half making 50% of your plate, vegetables

and the other, and then a 25%, you know, a complex carbon, 25% protein.

Again, I'm not talking about if people are going to be specific around or

paleo or I'm doing keto or I'm doing.

As a general rule, eating, eating, vegetables, drinking water.

Yeah.

Does this sound super, super basic, but I would have clients come to

me who wanted to run all these labs and do all these complex protocols

and take all these supplements.

And when I looked at those kinds of fundamental things,

they were all out of whack.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Some of the basic those foundational pieces.

Right.

And then of course, encouraging those trips to fan forming foods and wanting

to make sure everybody's eating them.

And again, that's protein and if you're a vegetarian, then it's

going to be avocado cashews.

Keenwah peanuts, uh, oatmeal.

Those are the main.

Yeah.

And, uh, and I mean, dairy does again, dairy can be

controversial for people, but dairy.

Has tripped a fence with quite a cheese yogurt.

Um, so those would be the three main things.

So 50% of your plate vegetables shifting the water, like increasing water minimum,

half your body weight in ounces, that's your minimum amount, minimum amount.

Most people aren't at the minimum.

And if you having coffee, you got to increase that by two cups

for every eight ounces of erratic

effect.

Yeah, that's right.

So hydration.

Nutrient dense foods and foods that are specific to, yeah, those would

be the three main.

Um, and if people are looking for like a roadmap, I have this other

little book called the essential diet eating for mental health and it

plots out like two week eating plan.

It just gives you the

unload or

physical yeah.

Physical book.

I think it's on Amazon.

Yeah.

If you search here on Amazon, you'll probably find both of the books.

So the book itself was that your idea w did enough people nudge you to write

that, that you finally decided to do it?

No, I'd say it came more from me, I think because, you know,

especially with bipolar disorder, you, you get the message and I, including

myself that the only option for you is medication for the rest of your life.

'cause usually you get diagnosed in your early twenties.

Oh.

And by the way, by the time you're 60 you.

Okay.

And these are going to fail

from the meds.

Let's talk about that.

A little, we've only talked about depression and anxiety.

Really?

How does bipolar diff does they're different?

Um, like if somebody comes to and they're, you know, suffer from depression

mostly versus bipolar, are there any like little tips or lifestyle or

dietary or things that relate to more.

More soda bipolar.

Is it a similar approach, generally benefits, mental health as a whole?

Yeah, I would say the new, so similar approach because it depends,

it depends really on the individual, if that individual spends most of their

time in depression and anxiety versus how many manic episodes that they've had.

Um, So the, the biggest difference between the two is managing the, the stress

and the asleep piece of the puzzle.

So with a depressive disorder, I mean, when you're depressed, you can have.

It can be either end of the spectrum.

You could be sleeping too much and having a really hard time,

motivating yourself to get out of bed and getting started with the day.

Uh, or you can just not sleep.

You can have it suffer from insomnia.

Um, but the difference between somebody who has just a depression

picture and bipolar disorder is if you don't sleep with bipolar disorder,

your, the chances of you flipping into a psychotic or manic episode.

But that will happen.

And it won't happen to the person who has depression.

They will, you know, they will not

experience psychosis.

Interesting.

So the, the sleep and circadian piece becomes even larger than for,

for people with bipolar who are looking to manage the manic episodes.

Management like the stress piece, because a lot of times,

you know, the, the allure of mania, it's very enticing and you feel

euphoric and you have lots of ideas and you feel, do all kinds of stuff.

And, um, but yeah, and then some people, you know, get into difficulty financially

because they, you know, they don't make the best decisions financed by cars or

impulse control.

Yeah,

devastating to people.

So, um, so the biggest differences for me is managing that.

Piece cause and the stress.

This theory has never been proven by, so this was by my,

um, original psychiatrist Dr.

Abraham offer.

He put forward this theory in the 1950s about it was called

the adrenochrome hypothesis.

But basically the idea was that.

Um, with psychosis or mania it's, it's like the body's just over-producing

adrenaline or cortisol and they can't, they can't break it down fast enough.

So it almost like if you were to put too much gas in the engine of a vehicle,

it's going to flood the car and it's just going to stall out similar idea with

too much adrenochrome floating through the coursing, through somebody's veins.

It just builds up the body.

Can't clear it.

Pushes you into psychosis, but the key is to not overproduce it

in the first place, which is then managing the sleep in the stress.

I see.

And so, your book implies and from what I've read and from our conversations is

that we're using labels here, like we're saying, uh, Depression, or we're saying

anxiety, you we're saying OCD that people can identify with that because they've

been probably given a diagnosis, they're told they have this or that thing, but,

uh, you're not a big fan of labels.

And maybe you could share just a little bit about why that is or what, what you

see, why you see labels to be potentially counterproductive or harmful in some way.

Yeah.

I feel like the label, it does serve a purpose initially to have.

Explain what might be going on with somebody.

And it helps to then match perhaps the medication that could be useful,

but it doesn't really explain what what's going on with somebody.

And, and also I think a lot of people get stuck in the belief that they are

that, and that they're not going to move from that to this place of wellness.

You know, depression and I, it's my view that, depression and anxiety and psychosis

and, you know, obsessive thoughts, they're all happening for a particular reason to

guide you on a soul level, back to you.

And when we medicate that away, it's like we're interrupting the process

and sort of, um, Disconnecting the person from themselves.

Now, I'm not saying like, I know it's very difficult to be, to be in a depression.

I, I get that, but I think that we want to shift the line of questioning and I

interview you, I think, alluded to this, or may have said this earlier in the

conversation, shifting it from what's this here to teach me and away from, okay,

this is something I have to disown or get.

And so I just really want to encourage people to continue to look within and to

understand that you, you know, the, again, those labels are there initially to help

you and to perhaps guide a particular treatment plan, but that's not all of you.

And you can move beyond that, to this, this place of what.

Beautiful.

And the labels, like the diagnoses, these are blanket terms like it's depression.

You could have 20 people in front of you that are diagnosed with

depression and their symptoms and the way that they experienced it

could be pretty wide ranging, right?

Like it's, it's kind of like autism.

And then, you know, you can have 50 kids in front of you and each one

of them is going to have different.

Strengths, different weaknesses, different presentations, different

challenges, different everything.

And we use these blanket terms to describe it and then provide blanket treatments.

And then, it's part of who you are then.

Like, I'm, I might go I'm OCD, or I have this, or I have this out of this and we

start to identify it like with ourselves.

And it's you, you mentioned, or I was going to ask, um, Sometimes

the labels can be helpful.

And for me, the one that has, and it was through studying with Gabor

because of his work in this field was realizing that I have rather severe

add and having a label put on that, or like, it was like a light bulb.

Like I listened to his book, I think it's called scattered minds.

Right.

And at the beginning or near the beginning, there's like a.

Here are some really common symptoms of add that adults

don't even realize are this.

And it was like 30 things they labeled off and I actually stopped it, put

it back, went slow through them.

And I could honestly say that I have all, but two of whatever the list was.

And I was like, wow.

You know, like I didn't even, and it, it made me see myself so much

differently and, Previous me like as a kid and growing up and in school,

like the challenges it shifted everything to where I understood that.

Especially after going through the book and learning like how that

happens and how it forms and how the brain is developed differently

and kids in certain situations.

And it really allowed me to have so much more compassion for myself.

And now I get to the add and ADHD.

It's the same thing.

Like that's not who I am and it can present a whole bunch of different ways.

But just having that realization that.

That's what's going on and that's, what's been going on the whole

time and that everything I've done has been with that going on.

And I'm like, wow, it's pretty amazing.

I was able to get through some of those situations, like, I have a really,

really severely, and so now I've been able to start learning ways to work with

it instead of against it, because add and ADHD have some super powers too.

And so it's, uh, That was impactful for me.

Like I try not to identify with the label, but the label itself was

like, oh wow, this is a condition.

I fit all the boxes.

This makes sense.

This is why I couldn't sit still.

This is why I didn't pay attention to this.

This is why if I have to do something and I'm anxious about it a little, like

if it's something I don't feel really confident doing, I get really anxious

and scattered and all over the bike.

And then just check, check, check, check, check, check.

And I felt seen, we've talked about depression and anxiety and bipolar,

add ADHD or respond to a lot of the similar, um, Yeah, they do

more of an emphasis on dopamine support, serotonin.

And so that's a dopamine is derived from fennel, fennel, alanine entire scene.

So that piece can play a role, it's sort of 50 50, I would say for, um, Medication

and, or like the supplement approach.

I mean, lots of nutrients and, the diet piece.

If people are listening and they have children, I would always start with

the nutrition piece with children and building in, um, these, the tyrasine and

magnesium and zinc, and, you know, the, you know, all these co-factors that are

required for that particular pathway.

Um, but in some cases starting medication can.

Yeah.

I have a friend who just started taking, uh, I don't know

if it was Ritalin or something like a few weeks ago and she's posting daily

updates on her, like life, like life as someone medicated who has ADHD.

And then it's like, I could do this and this and this and this and this.

And like, she was a mess before with all of those types of things.

So, um, GABA talks about that too, and says, you know, I'm

not opposed to medication.

For certain conditions, but for kids, he always recommends trying to go.

Cause we don't know, we don't know how that affects their brain

development and everything else.

And now the statistics on the percentage of kids in this country that are medicated

is pretty eye-opening to say the least.

And I would have been one of them.

Right.

Like if I was young, now they would have me on meds.

By the time I was like seven I'm.

Sure.

And we don't know, then they're more likely to be on.

Other meds and other things like it, it starts to cascade.

So, um, can we try to take a pretty balanced approach around here with

rebel health tribe and the things I do?

Like I am not a hundred percent anti conventional

medicine and things like that.

Like steroids saved mirror's life basically during her last flare.

And there's times where it's certain things are necessary.

So I've thought about it.

I've tiptoed around it.

Like I've noticed a lot of things though.

Now that I feel a lot better if I do or don't do or so I'm still kind of.

But, uh, the dopamine, we did a presentation for one

of our masterclasses with Dr.

Dan Kalish and he did it on dopamine and well watching the presentation.

It was another one of those like light bulb moments.

It's like someone who's deficient in dopamine or has

blunted dopamine receptors.

And then this slide came up and I was just looking at this slide.

I'm like check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check,

check, check, check, check, check.

Also leads to drinking, um, people with low dopamine love alcohol and like feel

great when they drink and all this the so,

uh, connected with that.

There's another book about that, um, is written by an integrative psychiatrist

at Nemea for, uh, it's called finally

focused.

No, but I'm going to write it down.

And the author is James Greenblatt.

I'm really interested now and I actually want to make it,

like, my focus going forward is working with people that have either adopted

or attention issues or depression is kind of like where I want to go.

Because once you spend so much time on yourself, like it only makes sense

that you just turn that into something, uh, to give at least to me and to you.

Um, so.

The book's been out for years now.

You're pretty well known in the naturopathic medicine space as a go-to

resource for, for mental health related stuff with naturopathic medicine.

And, um, now this is not a replacement, like going with naturopathic medicine

and with like diet lifestyle things.

This is not a replacement for, you know, counseling or certain types

of therapy or things like that.

That's

right.

That's right.

It's like the engine of the vehicle, you still need the frame, like,

you know, it's this and that right.

Compliments, right?

Yeah.

Like I would love it.

If naturopathic medicine was incorporated as like a primary first

line, can you let's start here.

And, and start with that it's more difficult with depression,

depending on how depressed somebody is, because let's face it.

If you don't want to face the day and you don't want to get out of bed, it's

going to be really challenging for me to say to you, okay, now I want you to

start exercising and change your diet.

Like you're not even feeling.

Right.

When I was at my worst a few years ago, like

I knew all the things to do.

Like I knew the nutrition things and the health things and the

meditation things, and then whatever.

And like, if I got out of bed and was reasonably productive for

even a little bit of time in that day, doing literally anything.

Uh, it was a win and I would write up these huge lists of

stuff I was supposed to be doing.

Cause I knew all the things that would help me feel better.

And I was the one writing the list.

Like I knew the things and I would never do any of them.

And then you feel shame and guilt for not doing the things.

So like if you give somebody in that situation, like a huge list of

things to do and they don't do it, uh, you could be putting gasoline on.

Fire situation.

Yeah.

So

The other piece here that I have overlooked

is, is the support piece.

So we often need that person for me, you know, It's been my running partner.

And so I would, you know, I have these scheduled dates and

I you know, I won't show up for myself, but I'll show up for her.

Right.

So that that's important.

And we, we all need someone.

I remember this one.

I heard this a teenage boy, he was depressed and the mum,

she didn't know what to do.

So every day she made a sandwich for her son and she put it by his bed.

Sometimes he ate it.

Sometimes he didn't.

You know, it was sort of random.

Eventually he got better.

She felt like she wasn't doing anything, you know, cause she didn't know what

to do other than making the sandwich.

And he told her that, that that was his lifeline was the sandwich.

So you never underestimate the small things that you do to support somebody.

You know, it may just be the thing as simple as, as making a sandwich.

For someone.

And don't take it personally, if they don't eat the sandwich, just

make this aliveness, you know?

Yeah.

And people in that state may not be the best at expressing their gratitude

or expressing their needs either.

And so, um, but those things are always noticed and each one

has a little impact for sure.

And yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that the value of support, not only

for little things like that, but also to have someone to go through,

you know, the we're both kind of.

I don't want to say on the other side, but have been through and

kind of come out and kind of.

Manage things and are generally in a better, um, state, but so you don't see

it, but like I had a lot of support and the time I've been through two pretty

serious episodes and the time that I actually opened up and accepted support

and I was open with people on how I was doing and feeling and whatever.

Um, I made it through that one a lot easier than the time that cause

a lot of people you should have.

Like you shut down.

You don't tell anyone, you keep it to yourself.

You're the only one that knows that you're suffering.

And, um, and I even would like kind of lash out at people if they were like,

Hey, what's wrong or what's going on?

I'd be like, I'm fine.

You know, whatever.

And so, um, lean into the support from people around you, if you have it.

So, um, all right.

I'm trying to think if there's anything else that I wanted to ask,

we covered some, some big needle movers, your own trajectory through

school and working with patients.

And I guess like the next step, I mean, w what ultimately needs to happen is

some sort of integration between like a functional medicine, naturopathic

medicine, health, nutrition, wellness approach, with the people on the I'll put

it in quotes, other side, who are doing.

The therapy and the counseling and these kinds of things like educating them on the

importance of a lot of these things too.

But I know with some like licensure things, like they're outside their scope

because my mother-in-law is a therapist here in California and she started

watching all of our stuff years ago.

The MegaSpore probiotic that we work with, uh, took away her

lifelong allergies and asthma.

And then she got really interested in like all this health stuff.

And she started learning all these things that relate to mental health and all this.

And she's like, but I can't make these recommendations to my clients because

it's out of the scope of my practice.

It almost has to start at like an organizational level of like the

governing bodies and the things like that.

But I mean, you can steer people towards information, but, um,

could she say that, you know, it could be

beneficial if you continue.

In addition to working with me with

a, yeah, with a natural path with somebody, like she just can't

be the one who gives the information with a therapist licensed at least

here in California because it's not part of their scope of practice.

And so I'm seeing the fields really kind of in the last five years or

so, wake up to the value of each other and that's kind of what I've

been working on building with.

The other platform that I have is kind of merging the two.

Uh, side's getting everybody in the same room.

Right.

Cause you know, for the naturopathic and for like chronic

health conditions that aren't.

Associated necessarily people don't realize that doing the mental health

work and the emotional work and that kind of thing can have a real

impact on a condition that you don't even think would be related to that.

And so the more we can get everybody in the same room cause healers

traditionally in cultures, they weren't.

The medicine person and the therapist person, and this person, like

that person was the, all of the, like, they saw it as one thing.

Like it's because it is one thing.

And

so

I'm sure there's a lot of therapists who have read your book

and a lot of counselors who have read your book and people on that side,

that aren't the naturopathic side.

They're more on the therapy counseling side.

I'm sure.

Opened a lot of highs there, um, because everything they're doing

will work better if people follow these guidelines as much as possible.

I

was just going to say one thing that I may have skipped

this over, just recognize that when it comes to everybody as individuals,

right, there's the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.

And we know what we're talking about is that the physical is often, um, Divorced

from working with the mental, emotional, and spiritual, but on that physical side,

I just want people to understand that there's three macro systems in the body.

So you've got the neuro-transmitters, which is what we've been talking about.

Mostly like with dopamine, but you also have your hormones

and every single hormone.

If there's a deficiency symptoms can be depression and anxiety.

So then the organs of detoxification and your immune system, which you touched

on when you mentioned the probiotics, there's a huge gut brain relationship.

So that's those three macrocysts.

Are important to have somebody understand from a root cause, which system or systems

are we going to be supporting in the body?

And often the go-to is always, oh, neuro-transmitters right.

If somebody is depressed, it's always enough neurotransmitters, but we want

to be mindful of the age of a patient.

Um, because if it's for women, you know, the onset of Menzies

are in their twenties or.

In their late forties, early fifties.

And even for men too, like anyone who's deficient in testosterone, one

of the main symptoms is depression.

So just wanted to mention that piece because I, I don't think I did that.

We're always wanting to figure out like what system or systems like, you know, can

be more than one thing going on as well.

Right?

Yeah, for sure.

And this is really important.

If you start medication, for example, And, you know, theoretically, you should

get better, but if you don't, then there can be explanations for that.

So it can be the wrong macro system.

There could be something from the environment, blocking the receptors.

I didn't, we didn't get, you know, I didn't talk about the environmental

piece, but I guess what I want to leave people with is just understand

and know that there is an explanation for what you're going through.

And it may not always be on that physical level.

Like in my case, you know, it was partly, I think to help me realize that this

path that I was on wasn't the right path.

That's beautiful.

And I mean, check out her book.

I couldn't recommend it enough for anybody with any sort of mental health challenges.

This is, I don't even know of another one similar out there, like

it's, it's really well done and.

Tying naturopathic medicine to how people are feeling and

addresses different systems.

And, um, links are below.

I know your website and everything is below.

What's the best way for somebody to get ahold of you directly if

they wanted to either, um, find out more about your book or consults

or do any of that type of stuff.

Probably through the website.

There there's a contact

form.

Okay, great.

Yeah, we have everything.

We have everything down below in the show notes.

I learned a lot.

I'm grateful for your time and your story.

And for everything that we talked about in the last episode that led

you to be doing everything that we talked about in this one, uh, I think

it's important for people to realize that you're, you know, everything that

you've went through is part of who you are and what you're you're doing.

And I try not to like want to black that part of my life out.

And walk away from like shame around it or any of that.

Like, it's just something I went through that shaped who

I am and I'm grateful for it.

So thank you so much.

And I look forward to maybe we'll do a, a masterclass or some other type of

thing in the future where we get into some details on some of this stuff.

All right.

Thank you so much, Dr.

Chris.

Okay.

You're welcome.

Take good care.