Divorce recovery, anxiety, betrayal, emotional healing, and finding peace after divorce—if you've ever felt like your mind won't stop spinning, this episode is for you.

Why do we replay conversations, obsess over the past, or constantly worry about the future after divorce or a painful life transition?

In this episode of Doing Divorce Different, I sit down with therapist Brian Burns to explore why our minds "spin out" after divorce, betrayal, grief, cancer, and other unexpected life events. We discuss practical tools for calming anxious thoughts, letting go of what we cannot control, and finding peace even when life doesn't go as planned.

As someone who has personally walked through breast cancer, difficult seasons in marriage, and years of helping women navigate divorce, this conversation deeply resonated with me. Brian shares simple but life-changing concepts that can help you stop carrying burdens that were never yours to carry.

Whether you're considering divorce, healing after divorce, navigating betrayal, or simply feeling overwhelmed by life, this episode will remind you that peace doesn't come from controlling everything—it comes from learning where your responsibility begins and ends.

If you've ever felt emotionally exhausted from trying to fix everyone around you, this conversation is for you.

🎙️ If this episode encourages you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who may need a little hope today.

Timestamps

(00:00) Why women "spin out" after divorce and difficult life events

(03:15) Introducing therapist Brian Burns

(07:42) Why our brains become trapped in anxiety and overthinking

(13:28) Understanding what belongs to you—and what doesn't

(20:05) The connection between betrayal, fear, and trying to control outcomes

(27:46) Lesa shares her breast cancer journey and lessons about surrender

(36:30) Faith, acceptance, and learning to live with uncertainty

(45:18) Practical tools for calming your mind when you begin spinning

(54:40) Finding peace in the middle of life's hardest seasons

(1:02:10) Final encouragement and next steps

Key Takeaways

• Trying to control other people's choices often creates more anxiety than peace.
• Healing begins when we learn the difference between our responsibility and someone else's.
• Divorce, betrayal, illness, and grief can all trigger emotional "spinning," but there are healthy ways to interrupt that cycle.
• Faith, mindfulness, and healthy boundaries help us navigate uncertainty with greater peace.
• You don't have to have every answer today. Your next right step is enough.

Guest Bio

Brian Burns is a licensed therapist, speaker, and educator who helps individuals and couples navigate anxiety, relationships, emotional healing, and personal growth. His practical approach combines clinical experience with compassionate insight, helping people understand why they become emotionally overwhelmed and how to move toward healthier patterns of thinking, communication, and peace.

Welcome listeners to Doing Divorce Different.

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I am so excited today, truly, like

very energized to have my friend

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Brian Burns back on the podcast.

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Brian, it makes me feel

like I'm really back.

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You know, I feel like I took a little

break- Oh, yeah … from a lot of divorce

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work, and I've been doing this a while.

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But you're kind of the first of many

great interviews to come up solely about

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divorce and helping women through it.

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So I'm just grateful to have you.

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Thank you for being here.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you,

Lisa, for that warm welcome.

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I, um, I'm happy to be back

after the, the brief hiatus,

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and- … it has been a while, so-

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Speaker: Yeah

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Speaker 2: this is fun.

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I think, um, I should change

my, uh, title on the, on the

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screen here to say Brian Burns I.

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There you go.

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I, I like, I like that.

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I'm not sure I believe it,

but I do- … I do like

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Speaker: it.

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No, it's true.

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There is like something turn…

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It's kind of a turning point.

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I've been slowly ebbing my way to really

getting back into this work, and I feel

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like today is a big day towards that.

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So-

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Well,

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Speaker: good for

you … it's kind of exciting.

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Yeah.

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So listeners, if you don't know Brian,

he's been on podcasts in the past,

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and he's like my favorite therapist.

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And, and if you're wondering why am

I here today, it's because I wanna

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talk, Brian, about spinning out.

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And I actually had a divorce coaching

client asking me, "How do I stop

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spinning out about my ex-husband?"

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And so I want to look at that, and

I think it applies to everything.

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I mean, I can spin u- spin

out about health issues,

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about money, about anything.

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So-

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah

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… Speaker: kind of what

I want to talk about.

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Okay.

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And I think when you're, when you've got

an ex-spouse and maybe there's betrayal

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or you don't know what happened- Mm-hmm

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um, maybe there's a little more to it.

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So would you mind just kind

of talking about tools?

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Sure.

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Um, through, uh…

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Well, just the context for people

that maybe don't know me, um, I'm

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a marriage and family therapist.

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Most of my, uh, and I've been

doing this work for, boy, 25…

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I graduated from, uh, grad school in

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: 26 years.

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Um, and most of my work is with couples

who are, uh, on the brink of divorce.

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I do what's called discernment

counseling, helping people on the

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brink to make a decision about

the next steps in their marriage.

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: And those that choose to

repair together, we work hard, we

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dig in and make the right changes.

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And those that choose to, uh, separate

or divorce, um, for their own good

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reasons, uh, I help set them up in a

collaborative, uh, uh, f- respectful,

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you know, effective- Mm-hmm … process.

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Um, so that's, that's sort of

me, uh, from a 30,000-foot view.

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Speaker: And I'm glad- Back to your- I'm

very glad that you brought that up, Brian.

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Yeah.

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Not to interrupt you, because we're

going to go back to our topic.

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Right.

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But a lot of our listeners, that

is always the big question, "How

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do I know if it's time to divorce?"

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You know?

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Oh, yeah.

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I mean, I've got people, I've got people

that come to me when they're ready, and

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I have people when they're like, "Ugh."

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I have one right now, a gal

out in California, she's

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trying to make that decision.

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Mm-hmm.

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So I just, I, I send

people to you all the time-

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Speaker 2: Well- … to

work with you … um, yeah.

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If you haven't, uh, posted something

on discernment counseling recently,

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then get that on your, uh, queue.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Because I think,

you know, that you won't…

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It's not a guarantee that you'll know the

right time to- To, to work on it still

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or not, but it's a really effective tool.

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Um, so listeners, if you

haven't heard that term, it's,

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you know, easily searchable on

Google and AI to find out more.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Experiment counseling.

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Speaker: Yep, and I will have you

in the show notes as well so people

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can just click there to find- Yeah

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yeah.

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And you're easy to find, so.

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Speaker 2: You go to my website, I've got,

you know, information about it and links

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to find out more, so that, that's great.

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Speaker: Wonderful.

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Okay, so good.

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Okay.

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So once the-

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Speaker 2: Spinning out

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… Speaker: yeah, the spinning out.

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Let's talk about spinning out.

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Spinning out over someone cheating on you.

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Spinning out

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Speaker 2: over- So this isn't…

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Yeah.

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So this just isn't just, um,

specific for a divorcing person

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or divorced person- Yeah … you

know, obsessing about their…

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I, I say obsessing.

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I mean, when I hear spec- spinning out,

it's like my emotions t- got control of

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me, hijacked my brain, and I just can't

keep thoughts of ex- Yeah … from not

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invading my, you know, my current reality.

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So that could be an ex-husband or

ex-spouse, or it could be your kid and

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the trouble they're in or the problem

they're having, or, um, in- infidelity.

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Could be anything.

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Speaker: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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And so I…

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You know, differentiating feelings from

fact and, um, differentiating what's-

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one's own business to deal with and what's

someone else's business to deal with.

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Uh, I think that those are two key

mantras or phrases that work for me

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and for clients that I work with, and

I'll tell you what I mean about that.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Yeah, go, go deeper there because when

you say that, I question, like, okay,

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what do you mean what's my business?

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker: You know?

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Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Uh-huh.

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Uh-huh.

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Yeah, that's, that's, uh,

provocative language potentially.

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You know, like, if your

spouse is cheating on you, um-

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Speaker: It's your business

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… Speaker 2: definitely, definitely your

business- Yeah … um, to know about that.

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But here's what I mean, and I'll

start there 'cause that's, you

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know, got, got the attention here.

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Is that, um, what, what's my bus-

What I mean by my business versus

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your business is what is my business?

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W- what, what do I have control over?

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, what do, what are my

thoughts that happen in my brain?

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: Uh, versus what do you

have control over, and what do…

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are the thoughts that

happen in your brain?

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And there's a clear line, uh, that's not

hard for rational people to differentiate,

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you know, where that line is.

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W- it's, uh, it…

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Because skin exists to demarcate that

line, you know, what I have control over

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and what I don't have control over and

what my thoughts are versus someone else.

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And so, um, like, for, like,

this is an example that I think

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could easily happen daily and

probably did earlier in my career.

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You know, I'm a young therapist sitting

in front of a tough couple, and they're

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arguing, and I'm unable to do or say

anything that derails that argument.

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I mean, that feels horrible.

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: Um, and I rem- I d- I, I think

I remember these days well enough that

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I would spin out, to use that language,

afterwards, you know, in the evening- Yeah

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… thinking, "Man, you're so stupid."

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Like- … like, did you learn

anything in grad school?

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Uh, why are they even

seeing you, you know?

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They probably will fire

you after that meeting.

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Um, you're probably in the wrong

job, and you- Oh … should've been,

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you know, a truck driver 'cause

they don't have to talk to anybody.

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Speaker: Right.

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Speaker 2: Um, like, that's a, that's

kind of an example of, of spinning out.

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And what I did is that I made

it my responsibility that

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they were having an argument.

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Speaker: Right.

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Um,

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Speaker 2: I took on that job of something

that I don't have any control over,

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whether or not someone else argues.

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Um, you know, I have control over

what I say or what I do, but I don't

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have any, any responsibility there,

so it's really not my business-

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Mm-hmm … is, is what I'm saying.

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Um, here's another example,

or using the same example.

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How they think about me- As

a therapist, not my business

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Speaker: Mm-hmm

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Speaker 2: If they choose to tell

me how they think about me, well,

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then it becomes my business.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, they made that,

that autonomous choice.

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If your ex-spouse chooses to share

something with you, then that

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becomes your business to deal with.

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But if they're not saying a thing, you

thinking about it, you know, what they're

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thinking, what they're doing, what they

think about you now, not your business.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Um, a- and, and even if it

were, you know, you'd have to figure

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out what you could do about it or not.

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Speaker: Right.

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Speaker 2: And, and in the, in the,

in most cases, you don't even know.

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Speaker: It- yeah, and it's

interesting what I've learned in

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my life is there's not a whole heck

of a lot that I have control over.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker: No.

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And it's kind of freeing.

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Speaker 2: It's tot- well,

it, uh, I love this phrase.

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"Not my circus, not my monkeys."

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It just sounds…

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It's just fun to say.

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Speaker: Oh, yes.

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Speaker 2: And, and to think.

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Like, that, that…

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And what I mean is that's not my business.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Not my business to deal

with, not my business to change.

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Um, that person can try to make it

my business, and if I love and care

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about them, then I might take it on,

you know, 'cause I, 'cause I care.

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But if, uh, if I can't, even if I love

and care about them, then I shouldn't.

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And if I don't want them in my life or

they're not that important to me, then

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I definitely don't wanna make it my

business- Right … or take it on or spend

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any, you know, like, thoughts that invade

my mind, 'cause that's what it is- Mm-hmm

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like, thought invasion when we're

just not in good control of, of…

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'Cause nobody can control the thoughts

that pop in your mind or the feelings

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that you feel, but you can choose what

you do with them, what you do about

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them, and whether or not they stay there.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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I love what you're saying because

i- through my journey, I kinda

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ebb and flow, and it takes work.

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You know, like, I learned a big surrender,

and now I have to keep remembering that

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every day 'cause I am a people pleaser.

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And I might start spinning out

about, "Oh, I wonder what they

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think of me," and then I go, "Whoop.

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N- you know- Yeah … not mine.

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I'm a vessel here to do my work."

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Yeah.

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And that's it, and I g-

I need to let that go.

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Yeah.

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But I wanna talk a little bit, 'cause

I think about, like, some clients

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that I have and, and the, one of the

spouses betrayed through a lie, not

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necessarily an affair, but betrayed

the other spouse and then came

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clean after years of the betrayal.

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And the, uh, the husband is the spouse

that feels betrayed, and he cannot

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stop thinking and asking questions

about something that happened well

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before they were together but that's

something that she had lied about, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker: He, he…

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And, and, and the, the wife- is

sorry, has- Okay … forgiven herself-

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Speaker 2: Okay

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… Speaker: and wants to move on.

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Okay.

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And doesn't want to keep going back

and, and sometimes it does seem a

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little bit like the husband wants to

shame- Huh … maybe a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Yeah.

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Speaker: Um, so- Yeah … and it, and,

and yet, I, I always see both sides.

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Like, I kind of feel sorry for him too,

and it's like he cannot stop looking.

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He's not trusting anything that-

Yeah … she's saying even now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker: Looking and digging and,

and just doesn't stop thinking

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about it, and it's been over a year.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, what you

described, and, uh, you know, there's a

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lot of, of not knowing the context, but

what, but, but just based on what you've

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described, um, that's one spouse who

very likely has had the chance to ask

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the questions and fully understand the

nature of what happened, the nature of the

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betrayal, understand what it was, why it

happened, why she did what she did- Yeah

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what she learned from it, how it impacted

her, and what she thinks about it now.

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Like, th- that's the important thing to

understand, uh, about a betrayal because

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then you can know what to do about it.

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If you- Okay.

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Speaker: So, interestingly enough It

seems as though when I've worked with

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them, 'cause I do marital mediation too

sometimes, that she is stating this,

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and he's kind of not willing to see it.

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Oh.

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He's kind of not, not going there.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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So-

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Speaker: Not understanding

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… Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And, and what is he…

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Well, um- Uh, so you know, like,

uh, that, those are the things one

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spouse would need to, to understand,

to get information, to ask questions.

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I mean, that's what you're looking

for, is the data, the important

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data so that you can decide what

to do about this, um, betrayal.

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'Cause some betrayals, you know, you

might d- with all the right information,

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you might decide to end the relationship.

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Many others, you know, we decide-

Yeah … to understand what that means

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and what to do about it, and it ends

up strengthening the relationship.

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What this spouse seems, you know…

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And people can ask questions

and want different things.

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He's asking questions,

um, to keep her down.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: To

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Speaker: punish,

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Speaker 2: to keep her in a position

below him so that, you know…

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And, and not, I'm not

saying intentionally.

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Mm-hmm.

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Like, this is things that people do

intuitively without even knowing that

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that's what they're really doing.

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Um, so it's a punishment, you know?

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Like, in, maybe in his childhood

nobody ever let things go, so

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it's like, "This is what you do."

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And s- when you have something

over someone, you keep them

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down through bringing it up

again and, and punishing them.

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'Cause then I don't, you know, then

I don't really have to deal with

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the pain of having been a person

that is, stays in a relationship

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where there's been a betrayal.

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Um, I mean, in my mind,

there's no shame in that.

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You know?

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Like, there's great strength.

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Speaker: Well, and I

think that, yeah, this

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Speaker 2: is- That's something

that people tell themselves.

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Speaker: Right.

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There's, this is interesting too.

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There was a betrayal on his part

early on- Mm-hmm … that he admits

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he would have never told her, but

she found out through other means.

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And h- when, and it was a long time ago.

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And so when asked, "Why

would, why did that happen?"

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I don't know.

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Speaker 2: So not willing to

answer or, or able, you know-

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Speaker: Not willing or able, yeah

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… Speaker 2: to, to answer the same

kinds of questions about what, why-

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Speaker: Yeah

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… Speaker 2: and what to do about it.

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Yeah, the why question.

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It's so important to know how to handle

a betrayal is to understand the why.

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It's actually much more important

to understand the why than

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the what in my, in my work.

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Speaker: Okay.

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I love that.

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And

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Speaker 2: I really-

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Speaker: I love that, Brian.

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Yeah … per-

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Speaker 2: personally, I mean, I know

spouses care a lot, but I don't really

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care, you know, how many times they did

it or where- … or in what positions.

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I know other people care a lot about that.

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Speaker: Yes.

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Speaker 2: But I want to, I really

want to know why and what he was

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going for, or she, in, in your-

Yeah … in, and, and, and did he

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get it, or she, in that situation-

Yeah … and what do we do about it?

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That's what I want to know, and

often they will say, "I don't know.

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It's happened."

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So

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Speaker: then what, what

do you do from there?

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Speaker 2: Um, it's not, that's not true.

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It's not an acceptable answer.

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Like, how do you expect us to

heal and move forward if, uh,

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that's the best that you can do?

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And, you know, I, I don't say

that in quite such a shaming way.

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Um- Right … I, I would say it,

it, you know, like, if that's the

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b- best answer, if you really don't

know, then you really don't know.

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Can't force you to know

something you don't know.

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But would you be willing to dig deeper?

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Speaker: Right.

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Speaker 2: Um, because I don't know that

that i- answer will lead to healing.

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That will lead to- Right … you

staying exactly where you are in this

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relationship, which is a place of pain.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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So that's so good, and that's so

helpful when you're kind of working

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together and staying in that marriage.

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Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker: Now let's go to couple B.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker: And, and it's actually not

couple B because the other one's gone.

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The other, one spouse is gone, and

they've betrayed the other spouse.

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Let's just say the woman was betrayed,

not that that's always- Okay … the case.

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So she was betrayed.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker: He's gone.

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He doesn't want to stay married.

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And she is spinning out.

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My word's spinning out,

and she doesn't want to.

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She doesn't wanna think about it.

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She feels kind of stupid that

she- Uh- … let it happen.

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Speaker 2: Totally.

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Speaker: Which I am like, what?

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That's not, you know, of course you-

Well- … trust your spouse … well,

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Speaker 2: cu- cult- culturally, you

know, like we feel- Yeah … like we're

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the stupid ones when someone betrays us.

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: It's not true, but

it's, that's a normal feeling.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Yep, yep.

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So how do we help someone

who's going through that?

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It, so I think, and I always think

it's kind of a betrayal even when

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someone hasn't maybe had an affair,

but they're done with the marriage.

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Oh, right.

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And they don't give a reason and-

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Speaker 2: Oh, there's lots

of ways we can betray our-

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Speaker: Yes

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Speaker 2: our vows.

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Yeah.

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Speaker: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like infidelity

is just the, the big one.

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The wor- like considered the worst.

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But no, like we, we…

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Lots of ways.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Well, and I just have to

say, this is so interesting.

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Have you read the book Strangers?

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker: I think it's called Strangers.

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Oprah had the author on and it was

about a woman whose husband left

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her, and she had three pretty grown

children, and she doesn't know why.

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Speaker 2: Hmm.

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Speaker: And she kind of spun out,

and she has to live with that.

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So how does somebody…

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And she just kind of told her story,

but she didn't give any advice

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on, "Oh, how are you going to…"

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You know, just- So she- I

guess you can't control it.

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Is that it?

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Speaker 2: So she ha- wait, she had

three adult children and didn't know why?

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Well, they're not

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Speaker: adults.

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Thre-

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Speaker 2: They're older … okay, three,

three children that didn't know wh-

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and didn't know why she had children?

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Speaker: And he wouldn't…

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Well, he, she knew he had an affair.

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I think it's called Strangers.

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I'll correct this in

the intro if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 2: Oh, like she was- she

wasn't the biological mother?

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Speaker: No, she is.

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She's the mother.

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He's the father.

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They've been married forever, okay?

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And so, and, and she thinks

their marriage is going great.

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And all of a sudden during COVID, she

finds out that he's cheating on her.

422

The husband of the other woman calls

her, and she tells him, and he said,

423

"Oh, it was just a one-time thing."

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And then the, the affair

woman tried to commit suicide.

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The other lady, not the,

the one that wrote the book.

426

Mm-hmm.

427

And the guy just decides right then and

there he's done with the marriage, and

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he leaves her, and she doesn't know why.

429

And she spun out- Oh … for years-

430

Speaker 2: Okay

431

… Speaker: about what was wrong.

432

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

433

Like, yeah.

434

She thought they had-

435

Speaker 2: Yeah

436

… Speaker: such a great marriage.

437

Um, and she doesn't know why.

438

And so when you say when you're working

together to stay with someone- Oh,

439

Speaker 2: yeah … knowing

440

Speaker: the why is so important,

but what if that person's gone and

441

they're not gonna tell you why?

442

Speaker 2: Yeah.

443

I, well, not, you know, like-

444

Uh, my hunch, I don't know if this is

right, but it's a self-esteem problem.

445

It's that you're…

446

This person that you're, you're using

as an example feels like, "If I just

447

knew why, um, if I had answers, if I

could answer that question, I would

448

know what it was that I was wrong about

me that I could do- Yeah … better-

449

Speaker: Yes

450

… Speaker 2: and not have this happen

to me again, 'cause this is horrible."

451

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

452

Speaker 2: And, um, that's…

453

It, it is…

454

It's a non-answerable question, and it

indicates probably a self-esteem problem.

455

So if, if…

456

I would say to her, "That sucks, you know,

that you were with somebody who either by

457

choice or ability was unable to give you,

um, information that you deserve to have,

458

and would have been very helpful to you."

459

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

460

Speaker 2: Um, but that's a self-esteem

problem on his side, that he either

461

couldn't or wouldn't, worse wouldn't-

462

Speaker: Yeah

463

… Speaker 2: sh- share with you

this important information.

464

Um, and that's on him, you know?

465

Mm-hmm.

466

Like, that's a failing of his, which

to me vindicates you even more.

467

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

468

Speaker 2: Like, you can walk away from

this marriage knowing that- There's

469

nothing that I can learn from this other

than life can be shitty and you throw

470

you curve balls sometimes and you- Yeah

471

don't even know it, it's happening.

472

And, and you don't need the answers

that you're looking for, uh, to

473

be a happy, healthy, good person.

474

You don't need those answers from

him because he's already revealed

475

to you that he's not, that they're

not trustworthy in the first place.

476

Speaker: Right.

477

Speaker 2: It's a corrupted vessel-

478

Speaker: Mm-hmm

479

Speaker 2: that you're getting it from.

480

And so making that your business to

know, he's not either able or willing.

481

Right.

482

So that's his business.

483

Leave it, leave it with him.

484

Speaker: Okay.

485

Speaker 2: His problem to deal with.

486

His circus and his monkeys.

487

Speaker: Yes.

488

And so, so that all makes complete

sense, and it's interesting,

489

Brian, 'cause I'm just gonna bring

my own little story into this.

490

So I mean, I'm a life coach too, right?

491

So I'm all about mindset, and I felt like

I had things so figured out where I'd

492

go, "Oh, is that true what I'm think…"

493

You know what I mean?

494

I would just que- go through and

question things and be able to kinda

495

tame my mind and maybe let things go

by changing the stories in my head.

496

And then when they caught that stage

one breast cancer, holy Catalina.

497

I like, there…

498

I, I'm like, I can't s- I

didn't even do coaching, my own

499

coaching for probably a year.

500

I just walked my trails.

501

Speaker 2: Yeah.

502

Speaker: And I, you know, and that's the

thing that's interesting, like, we can…

503

It's great.

504

Like, I love being able to look at

how I'm feeling and try to change it,

505

but sometimes, and I, and I feel like

when someone leaves you, when you get

506

diagnosed with something, when something

happens to your child, I mean, those are

507

big moments where you're like, "Ugh!"

508

Like how…

509

And, and I guess, like, advice,

now you jump in with your advice.

510

Here's advice that I've gotten, is

breathe and, like, move your body.

511

Yeah.

512

Because you kind of can't…

513

And what, and then we talked before

too about that's where I learned

514

the surrender, the letting it go

because it was such a eye-opener

515

because I thought I was so healthy.

516

I had everything figured out.

517

I was doing everything I could, and yet-

I don't have control over everything.

518

No.

519

Enjoy your fricking life.

520

Speaker 2: Yeah.

521

Speaker: Be as healthy

as you can, have fun-

522

Speaker 2: Yeah

523

… Speaker: love people, and

then let her go because-

524

Speaker 2: Yeah

525

… Speaker: but it's hard to do.

526

It's hard to get there, and I had to

go through something really hard to

527

get there, and I don't want everyone

to have to go through that hard.

528

Speaker 2: Well, I think we all sooner

or later go through, you know, stuff-

529

Yeah … that, that, uh, where our old

coping strategies just aren't sufficient.

530

Mm-hmm.

531

And then it sound- sounds

like that happened to you.

532

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

533

Speaker 2: And good for you

for, um, having the wherewithal

534

to go on a lot of walks.

535

Just, just move.

536

Yeah.

537

'Cause, yeah, you can't fix that.

538

Speaker: Mm-mm.

539

Speaker 2: A- and you certainly

can't feel good about it.

540

Speaker: No.

541

Um- Well, that was the thing

that was so interesting, Brian,

542

is I learned how to be patient-

543

Speaker 2: Yeah

544

… Speaker: in affliction, and

there's a Bible verse about that.

545

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

546

Speaker: I just was patient.

547

I had hope.

548

I had great hope.

549

That was the thing.

550

Uh, like everyone was like-

551

Speaker 2: Yeah

552

Speaker: "You're gonna…

553

You're fine.

554

You're gonna be fine.

555

It's cu- " You know what I mean?

556

Mm-hmm.

557

But it was kind of this waiting and

not feeling great, but there was a

558

weird peace that came in that waiting

by holding onto that hope, and I

559

guess that's what I can give you.

560

If someone has betrayed you or left

you and you're s- you're spinning

561

out in that, yep, it's gonna suck.

562

You're gonna just have to be patient

in that affliction and keep hoping.

563

Keep remembering that there's still hope.

564

Yeah.

565

You still can have a great relationship.

566

Yeah.

567

I don't know.

568

What are your thoughts?

569

Speaker 2: Well, what…

570

You know what, what people tend to do that

the- these coping strategies that work

571

for, for a time, or sometimes a long time,

you know, work harder, keep yourself busy.

572

Uh, dive into a project.

573

Uh, get love from your, from your

spouse or your parent or your kids.

574

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

575

Speaker 2: Um, you know, uh, drink a lot-

… 'cause that, I mean, like that, you know,

576

that can help get you through a tough day.

577

I'm, like, I'm not gonna

say it's 100% evil.

578

There's consequences, but-

579

Speaker: Yes … y-

580

Speaker 2: you know, like, um…

581

But what you're talking about, uh, uh,

a serious illness, a divorce, a serious

582

betrayal, I mean, those are things

that you can't work your way out of.

583

Um, and so what you do, uh, I think

is, is, is just be honest that- There's

584

nothing you can do to control this

or fix it, and feeling bad about it

585

is exactly the right way to feel.

586

Right.

587

Like if you didn't grieve or feel

pain or feel fear, then you're a

588

robot or like someone brainwashed

you out of those feelings.

589

Right.

590

So that would be…

591

That, and that wouldn't be wanted.

592

So to ac- not only accept that this

is how you're, how you feel, like

593

I'm maybe pushing the boundary here a

little, like be grateful that you're

594

human and that you can respond with

all of the range of human emotions.

595

And then as you say, Lisa, be patient with

yourself, that these things take time.

596

And that, you know, just because you

feel horrible, pain, fear, sadness,

597

grief, whatever it is, uh, that

you won't feel that way always.

598

Speaker: Right.

599

Speaker 2: And that's hope.

600

That's, you're instilling hope.

601

I feel that way now, but I

won't feel that way always.

602

I may, I may feel that way tomorrow.

603

I may feel that way a month from now.

604

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

605

Speaker 2: But a year

from now, I don't know.

606

I might feel actually very different.

607

I might feel good.

608

I was, uh, working once with a guy,

um, your example reminded me of this,

609

and his, uh, wife cheated on him

And I think they mutually decided

610

to divorce, but he was devastated.

611

Like it was- Yeah … um,

his second marriage.

612

He put a ton of in, you

know, emotional investment-

613

Speaker: Yeah

614

… Speaker 2: in this, this one working,

had children, you know, very int-

615

uh, intentionally through IVF, um,

knowing that he could count on the

616

relationship and then that happened.

617

It's just devastating.

618

Speaker: Yeah.

619

Speaker 2: Um, and what he did was he

listened to the same song on Spotify.

620

It w- I don't remember.

621

Raindrops.

622

It, the, the song popped into

my head, so listen- Raindrops

623

Speaker: Keep Fallin' On My Head?

624

Is that-

625

Speaker 2: Uh, no.

626

No, it's

627

Speaker: like-

628

Speaker 2: No?

629

No.

630

You know, this, this pod, this

podcast episode sponsored by

631

the song Raindrops on Spotify.

632

Um, it's a, it's a instrumental,

it's just- Okay … a catchy

633

little instrumental with like t-

uh, synthesized music probably.

634

Speaker: Uh-huh.

635

Speaker 2: No words.

636

Um, very repetitive, soothing.

637

Um, and he, uh, listened

to that constantly he said.

638

He just couldn't stop because it helped

his, it helped his brain not spin.

639

He would work out, take care of his kids,

go to- Yeah … go to his job, um, talk

640

to friends when he could, and then listen

to his, the song in his, in his earbuds.

641

Yeah.

642

He said his kids just learned to know,

"Yep, Dad's listening to Raindrops."

643

Oh.

644

That's, that's how he got through

a period of about six to 10 months

645

that were very, very difficult.

646

But today he's, you know, not doing that.

647

I don't think he's listening to

Raindrops in, you know- Uh-huh.

648

Right … years and he has a

very, very, very good life.

649

I think he would agree with me.

650

Speaker: Yes.

651

Speaker 2: Um-

652

Speaker: And I think when you go through

that hard stuff, my life is better.

653

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

654

Speaker: I've learned so-

and it, and it's interesting.

655

I will say one thing.

656

I did take care of myself.

657

It became my number one priority,

and I did amazing through all the

658

treatment because I just focused

on resting and walking and working

659

out as much as I could- Mm-hmm

660

and doing all the things, and

even though I felt a little

661

bit of a scared dullness in me.

662

So but here was another thing.

663

I'm just going off here now on

my little story, on a tangent.

664

It's your

665

Speaker 2: podcast.

666

You can do whatever you want.

667

Speaker: All right.

668

So at the same time that that happened

to me, a friend of mine we thought

669

was going through the same thing.

670

You know, we thought, "Oh, it's stage one.

671

You know, it's gonna be…

672

You're gonna have to go through

junk, but it's gonna be fine."

673

Well, as it turned out for

her, um, it was stage four.

674

It was a different story.

675

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

676

Okay.

677

Speaker: And mine, like I feel kinda

like almost- Like I didn't have the

678

right to feel that bad about it because

everybody kept saying, "This is nothing.

679

We've got this.

680

It's cured."

681

You know, don't…

682

A- and she doesn't get to hear that.

683

She still- Yeah … is living with-

684

Speaker 2: Yeah

685

… Speaker: it, it's her number one priority.

686

Speaker 2: A more serious element.

687

Speaker: How do you deal with that?

688

Yeah.

689

How do people deal with that?

690

And I know, I, I talked to the

oncologist about it, and she said,

691

"You would be surprised, Lisa, a lo-"

And this is interesting to me, a lot

692

of women can live years with this-

693

Speaker 2: Okay

694

Speaker: cancer-

695

Speaker 2: Yeah

696

… Speaker: and, and do great.

697

But just to think, I just, I feel so

blessed that I didn't have to go through

698

that, maybe a little guilty that she is.

699

Speaker 2: Sure.

700

Sure.

701

Speaker: And, um, I just don't

know how you deal with something

702

like that because I had hope.

703

Where's her hope?

704

Speaker 2: It's the same.

705

I don't think it's different.

706

It's just- Okay … it's just harder.

707

Yeah.

708

Well, you know, your question about

hope, and thanks for bringing that

709

up again, I, I think it's crucial.

710

Um, this is something

religion does very, very well.

711

You know, religion doesn't do everything

well, but I think it does hope very, very

712

well, in giving something greater than

oneself to have to place your hope in.

713

So if you don't have something in

your life that is bigger than you,

714

and it doesn't have to be religion.

715

It can, or, and, or,

or, or your form of God.

716

It could be your, your family.

717

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

718

Speaker 2: It could be,

um, your flower garden.

719

Yeah.

720

It could be, um, getting up in the

morning and being alive is, um,

721

im- like a humanistic a- approach.

722

Um, like something that, uh, you,

the, the, strengthens you, you know,

723

as a foundation that you stand on.

724

I think that's crucial.

725

Uh, but the, but the recipe is the same.

726

Like, you get up every day and you

accept what you have to deal with

727

in that day that you can't control.

728

It's the- Yeah … you

know, the serenity prayer.

729

Just this morning I learned, uh, from

a couple that I'm working with in

730

their early 60s that he was diagnosed

with stage four prostate cancer.

731

Um, which isn't a death sentence.

732

Um- No … uh, but it is, uh, learning,

you know, from one day to the next that

733

you may never ever again have an erection-

734

Speaker: Right

735

… Speaker 2: or build, you know,

muscle, uh, or, you know, be able

736

to do the things that you used to be

able to do that required testosterone

737

to be present in your body.

738

Um, so you know, that's a death

sentence to certain aspects of your

739

life that are- Right … very important.

740

And what, you know, what is a person that

is paralyzed from the neck down- Yeah

741

… do one day to the next to, you know…

742

Well, you can give up, and

that is a viable o- I mean-

743

Speaker: Mm-hmm

744

… Speaker 2: we can choose to do that.

745

I'm not gonna judge someone.

746

Um, uh, although I'd be deeply

sad, you know, and, and hope, wish

747

that they made a different choice.

748

But you get up the next day and you

go through the motions that you're

749

able to, which are limited by your,

you know, outside of your choice,

750

and have hope in what's i- in, in,

in there's a reason I'm doing this.

751

Speaker: Yes.

752

Speaker 2: It's not just 'cause

I have to, it's because I choose

753

to because there's a reason.

754

Either God or my family or my dog or

my flowers, or th- there's gonna be a

755

blue day, um, after two weeks of clouds.

756

Like, that's just, um, science or

life experience tells me that's true.

757

You won't always feel tod-

tomorrow how you felt, feel today.

758

Speaker: Right.

759

Speaker 2: That's…

760

I mean, take that to the bank.

761

If you don't wanna feel a certain feeling

but you can't get rid of it, accept that.

762

And go through the motions and, and

have hope that you will not feel

763

that feeling forever in the same way.

764

Mm-hmm.

765

And I promise you that is true.

766

Speaker: It is true, and I love that.

767

That's so true.

768

Mm-hmm.

769

'Cause there does come a point

when that coaching comes in

770

and you can surrender it.

771

You can let it go at some point.

772

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

773

Speaker: It just- It won't

774

Speaker 2: stay with you

forever … it sticks

775

Speaker: with you for a little

776

Speaker 2: while.

777

Mm-hmm.

778

Some events evoke strong feelings,

and they take a long time.

779

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

780

Speaker 2: Absolutely.

781

And some are a lifetime, let's be honest.

782

You know, some, some events affect the

rest of your life and you grieve forever.

783

But that doesn't mean it takes away the

parts of your life that are good and that

784

you enjoy and that bring you happiness.

785

And, and over time, if you

want to, the grief does change.

786

Uh, people describe it as fading or

becoming more dull, and h- and, you know,

787

less sharp edges, less clear edges, and

just sort of in there in the background.

788

Speaker: Yeah.

789

Speaker 2: Um, but not heavy or, or sharp

the same way that it was in the beginning.

790

Speaker: Yeah.

791

I'm so…

792

I- it's interesting that you're

talking about grief because the

793

podcast episode coming out next after

you- Mm-hmm … the week after you,

794

is, um, with a woman who's a widow.

795

Mm-hmm.

796

And she'll talk a little bit

about grief and a little bit

797

about other stuff too in the mix.

798

Yeah.

799

All right.

800

But yeah, so it's probably…

801

We've been…

802

I've been blabbing a lot, but I,

I'm so thankful for you, Brian.

803

We've gone just a little bit over time.

804

Okay.

805

Speaker 2: Yeah.

806

Speaker: But, um, I so appreciate you,

and I would love to have you back 'cause

807

I just love, I love chatting with you.

808

And I just hope that people listening

out there are gonna get something that's

809

gonna just help them have a better life.

810

Speaker 2: Yeah.

811

I hope so too.

812

I'm happy to talk to you too.

813

This has been a fr- a rich discussion.

814

I like talking about these topics,

so thanks for, uh, initiating this.

815

Speaker: Yeah.

816

Yes.

817

I'm so happy.

818

Thanks so much for being here, Brian.

819

We'll see you soon.

820

Speaker 2: All right.

821

Take good care.

822

Speaker: You too.