In this special episode you’ll hear a shortened version of a panel discussion that took place in Kristiansand the 24th of May, in conjunction with Martin Clancy doing a keynote for CreaTeMe. The panel discusses copyright, ethics, music production, music culture and more.

The panel consists of:

Ragnhild Brøvig is a professor of popular music studies at the Department of Musicology and at RITMO Centre for Interdisciplinary Studies in Rhythm, Time and Motion at the University of Oslo, Norway. She’s the author of the books Parody in the Age of Remix and Digital Signatures: The Impact of Digitization on Popular Music Sound.  

Daniel Nordgård is a former guest on this podcast, he is a professor of music business and management and the author of the book “The Music Business and Digital Impacts.” 

Kristine Hoff (UiA alumni) is known by her stage name MAUD. She is an artist, vocalist, and producer. 

Elise Bygjordet is an artist and student in the Department of popular music and is part of CreaTeME’s innovation team, focusing on AI. 

Martin Clancy  works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and music, with a focus on ethical AI. He is the founder of AI:OK, the chair a Global AI Ethics Arts Committee, and a Social Policy Fellow at Trinity College. Clancy is the author of the book “Artificial Intelligence and Music Ecosystem” and has also had hits on the US Billboard charts. 

The panel is moderated by Steinar Jeffs

[Automatic captions by Autotekst using OpenAI Whisper V3. May contain recognition errors.]

[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the podcast Artificial Art with Steiner Jeffs.

[SPEAKER_02]: In this special episode you'll hear a shortened version of a panel discussion that took place in Kristiansand the 24th of May in conjunction with Martin Clancy doing a keynote for Create.me.

[SPEAKER_02]: The panel consists of Ragnhild Brøvig, who is a professor of popular music studies at the Department of Musicology and at Ritmo Center for Interdisciplinary Studies in Rhythm, Time and Motion at the University of Oslo.

[SPEAKER_02]: She is the author of the books Parody in the Age of Remix and Digital Signatures, The Impact of Digitization on Popular Music Sound.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have Daniel Norgård, who is a former guest on this podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's a professor of music business and management and the author of the book Music Business and Digital Impacts.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've got Kristine Hoff.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's known by her stage name Maud.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's an artist, vocalist and producer.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have Elise Bygjore, who is an artist and student at the Department of Popular Music and is part of Create.me's innovation team focusing on AI.

[SPEAKER_02]: And last we have Martin Clancy.

[SPEAKER_02]: He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and music with a focus on ethical AI.

[SPEAKER_02]: He is the founder of AIOK, the chair of a global AI ethics arts committee and a social policy fellow at Trinity College.

[SPEAKER_02]: Clancy is the author of the book Artificial Intelligence and Music Ecosystem and has also had hits on the US Billboard charts.

[SPEAKER_02]: We jump in the panel debate as I ask Elise Byggjorde about her use of AI tools in music production.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's bring in Elisa, because you have actually used a lot of AI tools experimenting in making music and producing music.

[SPEAKER_02]: What are the different methods you've been using and which tools have you been using and how do they work?

[SPEAKER_04]: There have been quite a few different approaches as of now.

[SPEAKER_04]: And if we just go to ChatGPT first, I totally get where you're coming from.

[SPEAKER_04]: I've been using ChatGPT for almost a year now, trying to see how I can gamify the system and use it to create lyrics that I feel resonate with me, but still give me some new creative input.

[SPEAKER_04]: And as of now, it hasn't really been that successful.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yet, it's been really great in order to creating these word banks.

[SPEAKER_04]: If I upload a few parts of my songs or talk to ChatGPT about what I wanted to contain in regards to themes, it's been a really great tool in gathering all these words I wouldn't really think of using at first.

[SPEAKER_04]: which I find to be a really good creative tool in like expanding the way I personally write music because I get really stuck on the same flow that I always use and that goes in the same regards to like using Suno I love using it just for practice practicing making top lines just

[SPEAKER_04]: rip off the vocals and then I can practice making a top line on a genre I usually never sing over, which has been a really good learning experience as a student.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you're using ChatGPT as an extended dictionary, I guess, where you make a bag of words which you can pick and choose from.

[SPEAKER_02]: And choosing words from that bag, does that make it feel less authentic?

[SPEAKER_04]: Definitely not.

[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like it makes sense for me to do, whether it is opening a dictionary, the Oxford dictionary, and scrolling through and reading words I've never seen before, or getting help from ChatGPT as a partner in gathering words that already have a meaning in regards to what I want to say.

[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like I'm still the one choosing which of the words I want to use.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm still holding some of the power in having a choice, which I feel is what makes it a good partner to use.

[SPEAKER_02]: Daniel.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to chip in a thought on being the devil's advocate.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things that I find as an academic, as a researcher and writing a lot of stuff in English, and English not being my mother tongue or my native language,

[SPEAKER_00]: There's help to be found in running through these AI tools.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if you do it from a creative, as a musician and an artist, I'm asking, is there something lost then?

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you look at it from some of the really big, significant hits that we've had coming out from Norway,

[SPEAKER_00]: Grammarly, they are horrible.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, ahas, take on me.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a lecture in how not to write English correctly.

[SPEAKER_00]: And had that been run, had that process been run through an AI system, through chat GPT, how to write that song correctly, had it then been hit?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is that not part of the DNA of that particular song coming out from Norway, Morten Harket and everyone else not being

[SPEAKER_00]: English speaking and setting up a chorus, Take On Me, Take Me On, which is strange and not really correct English, grammarly.

[SPEAKER_00]: But a huge hit, and it finds something globally.

[SPEAKER_00]: The other question is Björk or you could look at so many of these non-speaking English and also a lot of English-speaking musicians playing with words, with grammar, hip-hop, reggae, punk.

[SPEAKER_00]: All of these were getting out of the correct grammar is the whole concept.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just saying that it could be that part of the creative process and part of the learning process as a musician, some of it, some nuances get lost simply by getting everything correct, like, grammarly correct.

[SPEAKER_02]: An interesting phenomena which might result from what we are talking about now is if generative music becomes a thing, a trend, then we might see the opposite is being requested from musicians or humans that the faults or the mistakes are what make human music interesting and even more so when the opposite is true of AI music.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then the person I was talking about earlier who had the quotes, generative music is 100% bullshit.

[SPEAKER_02]: He makes his art with AI's mistakes as a starting point.

[SPEAKER_02]: So he finds the mistakes, the thing that is interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's something that's often repeated in art in general, that it's in the mistakes all the good stuff lies.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think you have a point there, Daniel.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ragnhild, a large question for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: How do you see artificial intelligence shaping music culture?

[SPEAKER_06]: I think actually the quotes that you showed us, Martin, about both technology being a part of human and also our enemy, both sides, I think that's important to remember and look at history, how technology has always influenced how human operates and also how we think.

[SPEAKER_06]: What is music today is something completely different than it was a thousand years ago or 20 years ago.

[SPEAKER_06]: So it's a very gradual process, I think.

[SPEAKER_06]: And I don't think actually the question is for or against AI, because AI is here and it will infiltrate the music industry in all kinds of ways.

[SPEAKER_06]: And I also think that

[SPEAKER_06]: that we kind of often think that a counter reaction to technology will be not to use that technology.

[SPEAKER_06]: But it also is kind of this technological determinism that you think the technology will go into one direction is seldom the way it actually is.

[SPEAKER_06]: It's often several different directions.

[SPEAKER_06]: So what we often

[SPEAKER_06]: criticize or feel skeptical about is not necessarily the technology itself, but a particular path that that technology goes.

[SPEAKER_06]: So a counter reaction to a particular path can also be using AI technology, but in a very different way.

[SPEAKER_06]: So the question, what was the question?

[SPEAKER_06]: Where, what tech, what music?

[SPEAKER_02]: How do you see shaping music culture?

[SPEAKER_02]: So you're definitely on the right path.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, thank you.

[SPEAKER_06]: I think that will be impossible to say because it's very much up to how we use it and how we regulate it.

[SPEAKER_06]: And I think it's so important the work that you do to both what you do with making people conscious about that, but also the more practical things.

[SPEAKER_06]: Very important, I think.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it can take on multiple paths.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've seen AI influence the music business already for a couple of years.

[SPEAKER_02]: For instance, Spotify, the major actor, has kind of shaped how the public listens to music because of playlists.

[SPEAKER_02]: And especially playlists based on moods.

[SPEAKER_02]: Many people now open up Spotify and just search for coffee, morning coffee music.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you do.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you start listening to music without noticing artists or titles or anything.

[SPEAKER_02]: You just listen to the music.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this gives Spotify the opportunity to put music in those playlists, which they don't have to pay that much royalty for, probably at least.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we have a story about a Swedish composer who has been the benefactor of this model.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was hoping that you Daniel might tell this story.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can try to briefly tell it, and probably most of you have already read it, because it's been in the news quite extensively, but I think the overall part is that there's this one Swedish composer who's behind, I think, 50-something composer alias, which again is behind 656 artist alias after that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is everything from tango to rock music to a lot of piano moods, different genders, different bands, solo artists.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there's just one person standing behind it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter contacted me to elaborate on their findings.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what they found was that this one single person stood behind

[SPEAKER_00]: On Spotify alone, 15 billion streams was from him or to him, which is significant.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's more than Adele, Metallica, and it's more than Taylor Swift.

[SPEAKER_00]: And no one has ever heard of Johan Rør.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the point is that he has successfully created or found a loophole on creating mood music or music

[SPEAKER_00]: generative music for specific playlists where he can fit in, take on a different brand, make a new artist bio, make a new background and fit it in, whether it's Sounds of Spain or whatever else.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's able to fit that in.

[SPEAKER_00]: And me and Martin, we were having a lunch and chatting about this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the problem is not really that you have lots of alias and that we cannot figure this out and who those people are.

[SPEAKER_00]: Music has always had artists working under different personas.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's part of what we do in many ways.

[SPEAKER_00]: The challenge becomes if, and this is very interesting, if it turns out, and you were saying that it happens, but we don't know if it happens.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're questioning if it happens.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the question is,

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that the Swedish journalists have asked both Spotify, the composer, and also the record label behind the releases whether there's a royalty discount for this particular music.

[SPEAKER_00]: and no one wants to to answer to it but we know that spotify did have for a brief moment a spot a royalty discount if you or they they would need a royalty discount in order for you to put your music in certain playlists so we know that this is already a concept that has been been been working

[SPEAKER_00]: And we also know which company is behind that particular artist, and that is Epidemic Sound.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Epidemic Sound, for those who don't know what Epidemic Sound is, they have specialized in providing so-called royalty-free music, which is not really, there's nothing such as royalty-free music, but it's a buyout music.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they resell that to Ikea or to different chain stores.

[SPEAKER_00]: selling it in as royalty-free music so you don't have to pay, or the stores don't have to pay their tonal fee and their grammo fee.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we know that the company behind it is a company that specializes on royalty free or royalty rebated.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hence, the question then becomes, what if Spotify then has their main economic motivation is to taper as much of that music in as many playlists as possible, because that means that they only pay 50% royalties for that music, and that's money straight on the bottom line for Spotify.

[SPEAKER_00]: and the question then of course becomes you know what do we do if you do what he's doing with ai do we see a totally new uh business model something that spotify will will benefit tremendously from and just to add a little bit because there's an economic uh

[SPEAKER_00]: problem with it or challenge with it there's also an artistic or cultural challenge with this because if you have and what the the the Swedish journalists were were pointing out was that in many of these playlists these are playlists that present a culture they present a a country very often so so I think one of the examples was Tango like this is Tango and within that list you would find several of Johan's work uh music

[SPEAKER_00]: And you have to ask what Argentinian tango music has been squeezed out of that playlist in order to make plays for Johan Rør with a rebated or discounted royalty check with just very generative tango music made by a Swede no one knows who is.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the question becomes what type of authentic music, or I'm not going to say real, you know, music is music, but what type of expressions, cultural and artistic expressions, are being squeezed out of those playlists?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a challenge that we have to also discuss within an AI perspective.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I find that still super fascinating.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I agree.

[SPEAKER_06]: Very interesting.

[SPEAKER_06]: And that also places questions on the power that such big platforms actually have, because I think music-wise, it's not that music that is completely generated by AI.

[SPEAKER_06]: will take over because musicians have always had this.

[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, musicians do not only make music because of the result, it's also the process leading to that result that we enjoy.

[SPEAKER_06]: And part of that process is to both express emotions, but also to be challenged.

[SPEAKER_06]: kind of mastering challenges and and um but still the power that those platforms have when when some platforms becomes the the major distribution place where people go to listen to music i think that's something that we should be very aware of go

[SPEAKER_02]: Go.

[SPEAKER_00]: Go, okay, I thought you said no.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, Daniel, you had your, okay, all right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just tying this discussion into your slide, Martin, because I think this is what we have to keep asking every time is what kind of problem is it that this is gonna fix?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if we look at lots and lots of AI generated music in platforms such as Spotify, what problem is it fixing?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because obviously we don't need more.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's not a lack of musical content available at Spotify.

[SPEAKER_00]: We already have.

[SPEAKER_00]: 100,000 tracks being uploaded every single day and counting, it's already, before we talk about AI, we already have an enormous amount of music being created and uploaded to these platforms every single day.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the problem being fixed with this, it's not that we need more music.

[SPEAKER_00]: And my guess is also, depending a little bit on the quality, that the problem that needs to be fixed, that we need better music.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't necessarily think that that is neither the problem.

[SPEAKER_00]: My guess is the problem that needs to be fixed is we need cheaper music, much cheaper music.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a problem that someone like Spotify or someone else needs to be fixed.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is the main motivation to not all of it, but some of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that should be addressed.

[SPEAKER_02]: For sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: The incentives of the leaders of Spotify are different from musicians.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think Spotify has increased their monthly subscription fee for a while.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as far as I know, they don't have any plans of increasing it either.

[SPEAKER_02]: They just did.

[SPEAKER_00]: Did they?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: By how much?

[SPEAKER_02]: Just a thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can't say Spotify's motivations are completely different than music makers.

[SPEAKER_02]: The leaders of Spotify?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or the shareholders?

[SPEAKER_02]: Don't you think that their incentives are aligned with pleasing shareholders and the economic revenue?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think there's any... I'm sorry, I have to pull you up on that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's an oversimplification.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we have to be very careful of oversimplifications.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're in the business of music, and I'm not supporting, like, you know, I can make the argument a number of ways, and I would be very critical on a number of issues about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I just think we have to be very careful here.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know?

[SPEAKER_01]: A couple of thoughts, just a couple of observations for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, they're in the music ecosystem, so they're paying some money to somebody who's involved in music.

[SPEAKER_01]: You make your choices as you go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Playlists, yes, there are the problems of getting, if you've fed something that you haven't paid for, or you're getting fed the wrong thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, the thing is, that's easily fixed.

[SPEAKER_01]: You mark it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's transparency, that's that fixed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Consumer choices.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just think we have to be careful.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like playlists, I use playlists.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm lazy, but I discover new music from them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do too.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why they're popular.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the other part about this is, I'm sorry, but obviously I care about a lot of this, as we all do.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a couple of key things.

[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, the idea that there's AI music and there's non-AI music, that's a logical mistake in thinking.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like talking about, I'm an internet company.

[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't exist.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was a thing 20 years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: You could be an internet company.

[SPEAKER_01]: AI, we're already using it in everything that we do.

[SPEAKER_01]: So AI will disappear.

[SPEAKER_01]: It will become ambient as well as becoming embodied in robotics.

[SPEAKER_01]: The question is, what kind of future do you want as music makers?

[SPEAKER_01]: And that goes down to when we're speaking about authenticity.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, in historical musicology, there's a great paper called Whose Authenticity?

[SPEAKER_01]: You can check out that argues Hans Keller, I think, wrote that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that covers all the issues of AI music that you kind of need to know in that area.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one other thought for you as well is that music isn't the preserve of humans.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're not the only people who make music.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're the only ones who can have copyright.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the oldest musical instrument was played before us.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a bong flute, 40,000 years ago, before we were around.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just we have to kind of be a bit more modest about what makes us so special.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry about that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't quite understand the last bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Who played the flute before humans?

[SPEAKER_02]: Ah, OK.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: A bit to unpack there, because I was saying that incentives of musicians are not necessarily aligned with the top leadership of Spotify.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess Martin's point, and you're totally right, and you're right also in the rest of me, and I do too, tend to become very based on dichotomies, on black and whites, on villains and sabers, etc., which is not true at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you're absolutely right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm not trying to depict Spotify as villains either.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying that I believe large companies have huge economic incentives to please their shareholders rather than be...

[SPEAKER_02]: that they don't necessarily are incentivized to make great music.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is kind of a dystopian future, I guess, where the Johan Rør of the world gets replaced by AI generated music tailored to fit those mood playlists.

[SPEAKER_02]: And one can definitely see a future where people don't notice the artists or titles of those playlists and they're all generated by Spotify to make it as cheap as possible.

[SPEAKER_02]: And while there's nothing inherently wrong in that, and bless those leaders who can fly their private jets to Bahamas,

[SPEAKER_02]: But it doesn't necessarily make the best music or the best art for humankind.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, should AI be more aligned with making great art and not just entertainment?

[SPEAKER_02]: Ragnhild?

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, this is not very thought through, but I was just thinking about the camera when the camera was invented and the huge critique that the camera received.

[SPEAKER_06]: And also the fear of before the camera, you could only capture reality by painting and drawing, you know, and suddenly you could just use the technology and it was there.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_06]: But then, as I said previously, people like being creative and people like having their own stamp at things.

[SPEAKER_06]: So photography has become an art in itself, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: So that AI is generating music doesn't mean that we will not...

[SPEAKER_06]: collaborate with it.

[SPEAKER_06]: It doesn't mean that it will completely take over.

[SPEAKER_06]: We probably will find new ways of co-creating music with the technology.

[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it can take on multiple paths, as you were saying earlier.

[SPEAKER_02]: We also see that live music in the world is going on as before or even more.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think I heard that Taylor Swift is having a world tour these days and some analysts say that on average the audience member are spending about $1,000.

[SPEAKER_02]: to attend a concert, including travel and that kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: So people are obviously really interested in live music.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you guys see live music as becoming even more important in the future?

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe that's the question for you, Christina.

[SPEAKER_02]: How important is live music for you?

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe one of the most important parts of being an artist as well as the creating of music and arts.

[SPEAKER_03]: And maybe it will be even more important in the future to...

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, when everything is so digital and technology oriented, maybe it's like something with meeting other people and connecting over the music you've heard on your computer and then just being together.

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe that's going to be more important.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: A quote from Jacob Collier, the musician, when talking about AI in music, he says that when the spectacular becomes ordinary, maybe the ordinary becomes spectacular.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that kind of resonates with what we were saying earlier also when it comes to mistakes in art, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just a curious one about live music things.

[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't speak about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really because of the nature of the university and the courses that you do here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it'd be really useful to investigate what AI might change the future of music for live performance.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't mean as technological age.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that could be a good place maybe for the music management division to look at the performative side.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I work as a music manager.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I have a show on tonight in Ireland.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's actually how I make my living.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we run a lot of shows.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I did one arena show last year.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's an independent artist.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we had a choir up on the stage.

[SPEAKER_01]: At one point there was, I think it was 80 musicians on the stage and 200 people who were employed.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was thinking...

[SPEAKER_01]: I came back from here.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was after Christian's hand.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was just there going, this is kind of weird because I spend my time thinking about AI.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we've got 4,000 people in this room.

[SPEAKER_01]: Most of the people on the stage have got two other jobs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because even if they're professional musicians.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I look at the economics as a music manager and I can see how hard it is for successful bands to talk.

[SPEAKER_01]: and how even bands who can do 1,000-seater venues are having to cancel tours.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we have to be very careful.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is just on a slight diffuse here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't looked at this, but I think the economics of touring

[SPEAKER_01]: and then what how ai could be used in terms of for benefit of that could be a really interesting and explorative area to look at because um if it's not um just like the other parts like publishing and recording it will get figured out in advance

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any ideas of which problems that need a solution and which problems can AI provide a solution to in terms of live playing and touring?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I could probably think of a few things, but honest to God, I've researched the rest of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think genuinely here, that has an open question that's kind of non-directionally led.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd certainly like to contribute to that, but no one's actually spoken about that yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think coming, just to emphasize that, coming from the existing difficulty of that could be really interesting to figure out how you can remedy it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Daniel, you're also a DJ, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Former.

[SPEAKER_02]: Former DJ, but you do it occasionally.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any dreams of what AI could do for you as a DJ performer?

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now all I have to do is just stand there and drink my glass of wine and...

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think I had a discussion with a friend of mine because I took up DJing and I used to DJ for a long time and it used to be part of my living.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I bought a new DJ thing and it's so nice.

[SPEAKER_00]: It weighs next to nothing and you can take it away and I use Tidal with Serato so all I need is my laptop, my headset and this DJ thing that weighs...

[SPEAKER_00]: three kilos, five kilos, perhaps.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's super intuitive.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can beat mix without really knowing beats.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because it tells you.

[SPEAKER_00]: It tells you the BPM.

[SPEAKER_00]: It tells you everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you can have it do it for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I find that a little bit boring.

[SPEAKER_00]: I try to do it myself.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I was speaking to a friend of mine.

[SPEAKER_00]: I said, everyone can do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right now, everyone can DJ.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it used to be that my value as a DJ came down to two things.

[SPEAKER_00]: One was the records I owned, the records I had bought, because that was part of my value.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was the music I had available to play.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that was one of the values I had.

[SPEAKER_00]: The other one was how skilled I was to mix, to run through a night and mix music.

[SPEAKER_00]: And now the point is that all music is available because everything is there for title.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't have to, you know, it's nothing that I own, which is the value that I have to offer as a DJ, nor is there any value for me as a DJ from any DJing skills because you can literally just, you know, because, you know, you can...

[SPEAKER_00]: You can choose the songs from the scale and from the BPM, put them together, and you can press a couple of buttons, and it will do the job for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: All you have to do is just switch the fader, which could be a problem, but I'm thinking,

[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of brilliant too, because it really boils down to something else, which is the value then, which is curation.

[SPEAKER_00]: It boils down to my value as a DJ is curating.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's selecting the songs that I want to play.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is perhaps more exciting than simply what kind of record collection I own or the technical skills I have.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's a lot of really great DJs that have not that much technical skills, but who are really good curators who can provide some music I have never heard, but that I find fascinating and a superb

[SPEAKER_00]: order.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's a good thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I applaud it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's good that you don't have to spend 300 hours trying to beatmix and carrying your 75 kilos of records every time.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's nice.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's good.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you a positive story if I just jump in for a second.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to hog this, but it is my subject.

[SPEAKER_01]: Here's an interesting one about DJing that has a very positive notion.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when I started writing, I was writing about DJing because that's the evil I was teaching.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I came across a curious thing, which was that I was looking at AI basically replacing human DJs and the skill sets of turntables

[SPEAKER_01]: and how the technology was taking away a lot of the craft and came to a similar conclusion that the curation was the key part.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I also found out just a weird historical thing, which was that the first DJ was a machine.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in 1873, I think it was three years after the original phonograph was made, Louis Glass created the first automata, which was like a jukebox.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I started realizing that if I was being historically correct,

[SPEAKER_01]: The machine was there before the human DJ.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's full circle.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, and so it was kind of inspirational for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't make any sense of that, but I just figured it was just a historical thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as a DJ, you also have to read the room, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: To make sure you're hitting the right vibe and stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are two types of DJs.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are those who read the room and those who don't care.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're the latter?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm afraid so.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I can envision a future where you have probes and cameras and stuff monitoring people's serotonin levels maybe and curating music based on that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe people have, at least in the Neuralink world you were talking about, maybe everyone has their own music but it's synced in tempo so that the dancing also makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: I guess that would be cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what the role of the DJ would be in that sense, though.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, but if I could chip in a thing on the live music, because I think, again, Martin, you're absolutely right with AI.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's already there, and it's going to be like a mundane thing, just like the Internet.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just going to be something that we kind of take for granted.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's integrated.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was arguing the same thing at a panel I was in, saying that I think AI will have a significant impact on music, but it's going to be much more boring than what we're talking about.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be significant, but it's going to be in the back of a system.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to help sort things out, etc., etc., etc.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was thinking about the live music element.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think one of the things that I think it will probably, if it's not already in doing that in some sort of application, is to plan touring, to help the logistics, everything, to...

[SPEAKER_00]: to help figure out you know where to tour who to partner with who to you know uh set a budget costs you know to have that automated uh and uh risk assessments and uh every you know to simply plan it uh i think those types of things uh ai could you know really really significantly help with uh so i think those those types of uh

[SPEAKER_00]: more mundane tasks are often overlooked when we talk about AI.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I equally think that when we talk about which problems we think that AI could fix, one of the problems that music has had ever since I started my PhD, and one of the motivations for me started my PhD already in 2009,

[SPEAKER_00]: was connected to data and metadata and the huge problems with gaps in data, but also in different types of data on same types of catalog.

[SPEAKER_00]: So a significant challenge with the digital music industry, a continuous challenge, and it touches right into DDX,

[SPEAKER_00]: is that we don't have an authority on who owns what, where.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's been a huge challenge for a long time.

[SPEAKER_00]: And part of the problem is that there's a lot of important data that simply doesn't exist.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's gone.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's because the expiry date for a copyright

[SPEAKER_00]: uh it's so long that you have a lot of companies who has ownership to catalog that has been important and has perhaps re become re-important due to samples or due to cover versions or or something else where lots of data is simply just gone uh you know they've become bankrupt 30 years ago no one knows where the records are no one you know it's

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think this, and I was suggesting this in, again, the panel, and I was saying that would be something I would think that deep learning and AI would have a tremendous impact in fixing and sorting out, filling those gaps, figuring out that if this and this, then that person would probably be the technician or the bass player or the...

[SPEAKER_00]: Or he or she would have contributed in this because he or she was also this and this here and there.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it makes sense that blah, blah, blah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think those types of things, which are, again, extremely boring, extremely mundane, but extremely significant.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that would be a problem that it could fix within music.

[SPEAKER_00]: But no one's really discussing it.

[SPEAKER_02]: uh and that that is uh as you're saying it's a it's a problem um with streaming after you know um in the old the good old days i guess of cds and vinyl you could read on the back and figure out who played bass on this and who was the technician or the producer and all that information is lost so you're saying yeah most of it is still there all of it was completely wrong some of it yeah

[SPEAKER_02]: So you're saying you could use AI to figure out who played bass on that Motown record.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's accurate.

[SPEAKER_01]: I actually did it before I came in because I knew that I had that What's Going On slide, the Marvin Gaye album.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was going, why have I got that here?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was thinking it was a good record.

[SPEAKER_01]: But is there a link beyond what's going on?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm asking what's going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was outside and I went to chat to EPT and I said, I'm going to show this slide.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was being a bit disingenuous because I knew that there was a connection, but I wasn't quite sure what it was.

[SPEAKER_01]: And first of all, it was interesting because it gave me all of the data that you would imagine from like, you'd get it on a CD of the linear notes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was kind of going, okay, that's good.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then it said...

[SPEAKER_01]: Clearly, this album, this music innovation, this discussion of ecological change.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was going, yeah, OK, ecological change.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, right, OK.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then it started making conclusions.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was going, yeah, that's good if I could ask that question.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can feel that confidence.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what I'm getting at here is that, again, the part that becomes interesting, and I'd like to ask is, as artists,

[SPEAKER_01]: how these tools because let's just be clear ai disappear generative ai that doing the kind of things writing lyrics things that you would learn in this for instance in this college or be encouraged or the things that

[SPEAKER_01]: got you into this college because that's where your particular skill is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what would you, like, how can always through music and film, new piece of technology comes along and then it expands the vocabulary of that medium.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, so, like, what do you see

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm an old man, so what are the things that if, you know, if I was back making music and I was 15 or 16 or whatever, like, what would, like, what are the things that will kind of blow your mind?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, the advantage of this stuff, apart from the obvious one of, like, there's no point in me doing this again, but, like, so what are the exciting parts of this?

[SPEAKER_01]: On a generative side, apart from doing your admin and, you know, that kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: in a bigger picture if it could help me improve my skills maybe as a producer or songwriter in some way but that's very I don't know bad answer um or make me collaborate better with others some I don't know how might it do that how might it do that

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think what I've found is that it gives me new creative input that I tend to forget the more I learn.

[SPEAKER_04]: So the more I learn about how I usually write music and what kind of effects you usually do, I forget that I'm also able to do these really non-normal choices, like putting on this effect that it's not supposed to be on vocals at all.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I think ChatGPT and just hearing these generative songs that usually don't really sound like what I would expect it to do gives me this input like, oh, of course I could do that.

[SPEAKER_04]: I've just not thought about it because it's not normal to do.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it can sound like I don't know what I'm doing if I do it.

[SPEAKER_04]: But if I use that in a way where it was... Now I'm speaking really weird English here, but...

[SPEAKER_04]: I think about it like I work with two other producers here in the school, and I'm kind of the one with the least amount of experience in creating music in Ableton Logic.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I tend to come with these, what if we use a resonator here?

[SPEAKER_04]: That would sound quirky and fun.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then they look at me with the look that is like, that's a really weird idea.

[SPEAKER_04]: Why would you think that?

[SPEAKER_04]: Because I would never think to do that with these five years of experience that I've gained.

[SPEAKER_04]: But then when we try it, it tends to sound, okay, that's cool.

[SPEAKER_04]: This is not innovative, but it's new to our sound.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that's what I think generative AI reminds me of that I'm able to do.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it brings it back to the basics for me in trying new things.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, I'm asking another question.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you spoke to me earlier about the technical process that you were using.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought that was really interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Would you mind sharing that with, if it's not private, but I think it just, I was really inspired when I heard the way that you were using the tools because they're not necessarily designed for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, it was, you know, I think it's a really good insight.

[SPEAKER_04]: So what we were talking about was kind of like how we've been using AI in the innovation team and personally in creating music.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I want to just thank Sigurd and Sebastian, who I've been working with, who made me see these amazing opportunities.

[SPEAKER_04]: But creating a song through Zuno that I might think at first glance is something I'd never use can be a great tool when you start stem splitting it.

[SPEAKER_04]: use the drums from this part and splice it with maybe the chords from this one.

[SPEAKER_04]: And maybe you even want to go and re-record some of it yourself, like Sebastian, who we are working with, re-recorded a guitar solo that we got from a track when we were asking

[SPEAKER_04]: Can we get some chords?

[SPEAKER_04]: We just got this really fun guitar solo that we ended up using in our songs.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it was really like backwards way of doing it.

[SPEAKER_04]: But I found that I can almost always get some new creative input when generating these new songs that I can use in my own project.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it doesn't really take away the fact that it's made by me, which is what I like about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We can generate some sparks to jumpstart your creativity.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you're also mentioning sampling generative music, which is also...

[SPEAKER_02]: been in the media recently because of some hip hoppers sampling and using it in a heated argument back and forth.

[SPEAKER_02]: So sampling from Zuno and Udio is kind of a gold mine for non-copyrighted material in some folks opinion.

[SPEAKER_02]: Which leads me into a question to you, Martin.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because AI challenge traditional notions of authorship and intellectual property.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess that's some of what AI OK is supposed to do is provide some sort of framework to navigate these challenges, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: A seal of approval, kind of.

[SPEAKER_02]: What does a company have to do to get such a seal of approval?

[SPEAKER_01]: I was actually more curious about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking, these tools sound like they could be a bit of fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the first time I felt like making music in ages.

[SPEAKER_01]: yeah so so just okay ai okay so the first thing is the idea um is to just get stakeholders of the music industry and that's and they're identified uh via ddex together into a room to agree on what it is that they care about so clearly they could care about copyright but hopefully a few other things um and maybe that could be done on a localized level so

[SPEAKER_01]: That's where that bit comes in in terms of, you know, it certainly wouldn't, they wouldn't be, you know, if they asked me for my opinion, I'd be happy to chime in, but it's not.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, not there yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is there, I mean, in the sense that it will occur, whether it becomes accepted.

[SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes there's unusual things.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what happened to me was that a lot of tech companies have approached me and asked, how could we become certified?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I hadn't considered that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there was...

[SPEAKER_01]: So now we're thinking that we might do that because that could be quite simple to do and there's a need for that for people who are working in music, who are designing pieces of technology that are...

[SPEAKER_01]: I believe, for instance, being good actors, like they're making sure that they're using licensed training sets and that they're not copyright infringing and they're creating work and whatever else.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for instance, I'm now looking at how that might be possible to do for things like mastering.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you could actually create a set of standards and then go, okay, this is agreed by music professionals.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I think we might do that with tech companies, but not generative AI, because once you get into that, that's something to be decided by consensus.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any ideas on the subject, Daniel?

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you envision how to make a generative AI model ethical in terms of copyright?

[SPEAKER_00]: The easiest would be to provide blanket licensing.

[SPEAKER_00]: All AI pays 200 grams and it's being discussed and that would be one way to solve it.

[SPEAKER_00]: For a number of reasons, I think both the tech companies but also some of the major rights owners as in Universal Music, Warner Music and Sony Music would probably object to it because they historically want to have the right to negotiate individually.

[SPEAKER_00]: Historically, they're against blanket licensing.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think blanket licensing would probably solve one part of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think so that the training of new musical content would not necessarily or wouldn't breach copyright infringement.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then money from that would have to be divided through some sort of key.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that could be one way to move forward on it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if we don't talk too much about whether AI create content or the learning processes, what I find difficult is to see how this will develop.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because currently we have two different, how do you say, developments.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have

[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of services who provide AI music, which is being trained on whatever is out there, this is being disputed.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's already being disputed from literature, from books.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that the major rec companies in particular...

[SPEAKER_00]: are positioning themselves for a similar dispute in music, on what the IA music is being trained on.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in doing so, what the, especially the major record companies, and I think it's especially Warner Music and Universal Music, who have invested tremendously in

[SPEAKER_00]: AI system based on their own catalog.

[SPEAKER_00]: They own some of the best catalog that there is, economically at least.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they train new AI music on their catalog.

[SPEAKER_00]: They own the copyrights, so they don't have to infringe anything.

[SPEAKER_00]: and and that's interesting and because that will solve one of the problems but there's another problem that occurs uh simultaneously which i find extremely super fascinating which is that if the copyright challenges the legal challenges with copyright if that is fixed you may have another problem which is contract law

[SPEAKER_00]: Which means that if Universal Music owns this vast amount of really valuable copyrights, do they have the right to use the artist's music to train a robot to play similar type of music that will compete with the original recording?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is that according to the contract?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is going to be very interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that through dialogue that this is something that direct companies are, of course, very interested in and already looking through contracts to see if there's some way that they can fit that in or come past that in some way.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there are some extremely interesting ethical dimensions with this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And since we mentioned Prince earlier today, I think Prince is probably the best example on why this is problematic.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because Prince spent, as most of you know, a lot of his time fighting his rec company, fighting the master owner, having slave written on his forehead, and changing his name to avoid some of the contracts that, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if those were, you know, I think that that's probably the best example on the ethical, the moral, you know, maybe challenging sides to having someone owning the recording rights, training something to create Prince music or Prince like music in the first place.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a I don't I don't know what is right or what is wrong, but it's super interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's yeah.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, a related topic that I also think is interesting when it comes to rights is tools like MusicFi, for example, where you can sing a melody, for example, and then you can choose a model, say that you want Eminem, and Eminem, so Eminem have the sound of your

[SPEAKER_06]: The sound of Eminem's voice will be the one who performs what you were performing.

[SPEAKER_06]: And then in MusicFi, for example, when you use a model, then you will get the message that you can either use this model for commercial use or you can only use it for private use.

[SPEAKER_06]: So they must have, I guess, negotiated some licensing.

[SPEAKER_06]: So even if copyright is solved, then I wonder how that is in terms of privacy rights, because it is a person's voice, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: So it's not only the musical product, but it is the identity of a person.

[SPEAKER_06]: So that's also interesting to look into it, I think.

[SPEAKER_01]: The issue is

[SPEAKER_01]: The issue of Scarlett Johansson this week speaks to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not so much on the legal side.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I do find the legal side interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's also, there's a bit of train spotting about that too.

[SPEAKER_01]: that you can kind of get into the weeds.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they're really interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: But to your point about the voice cloning, so an interesting corollary to that is that

[SPEAKER_01]: So OpenAI apparently wanted to use, license her voice.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they'd been using that voice, which they called Sky.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was already available.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they ran the ad, and then they asked and said, listen, we really want you to use this.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're launching this tomorrow.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she went, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the sheer arrogance that they would do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this idea of similarity, like if you think about that in terms of artists,

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, the law is not designed for these challenges.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it has to reflect the values of what is known as a common good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who decides what the common good is are people like everybody in the room, because it has to be there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And copyright is based on incentive theory that is designed to create an economy that

[SPEAKER_01]: It makes sense to create things of labors of the mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: So these are fundamentals.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we have to work our way back to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense?

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why figuring out what kind of future you want and then being vocal about it is important.

[SPEAKER_00]: Can I ask you, Christina, how do you, you know, even though you don't necessarily use AI, you know, that much, do you consider it, like, do you consider it a threat or is it just like, how do you position it?

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it depends on what you're exposed for, like being here at the university where you're like, maybe you're getting educated in using AI tools, or maybe you're even encouraged to use those tools.

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe that makes it more natural for you compared to me, which I didn't

[SPEAKER_03]: grew up with with it I'm not that old but like yeah so I don't see it as a threat I think maybe I need to do my research maybe I need to look more into it and see how I can use it and maybe maybe it works for me or maybe it doesn't yeah

[SPEAKER_00]: and saying that you don't no one needs to but is there something that you think that you know if this if if an AI application of some sort would provide me this then I'd be super happy to have you have you thought about that is that is there something in that vein that you would think all right that would make sense that is what I need that is super cool that would that would fix things

[SPEAKER_03]: matter but like you talked about like a tour planner or like some kind of sorry manager thing because i'm an independent artist i don't have any team i don't i'm just working with my musicians with other musicians i don't have a label i release everything on my own so if if there would be any tools for independent artists that could make my

[SPEAKER_03]: make it easier for me to work and develop my project.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we shouldn't be that far away from any application able to register your song and even set the spits like this and have it registered to Tono or Gramo immediately and do much of those types of things extremely fast and very easily.

[SPEAKER_03]: There was someone I did a remix for recently.

[SPEAKER_03]: They DMed me and was like, what's your Tono number?

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I don't remember my Tono number.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I have to go in and check on Tono what's my number.

[SPEAKER_03]: So something like that will be very efficient, obviously.

[SPEAKER_02]: As a last question, what would you say to young musicians starting their career, or what advice would you give them on how they should interact with the world of AI?

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so we're in the world of one-liners now, so I have to make a one-liner.

[SPEAKER_06]: But also be creative, I think, to try to use it in new novel ways.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think in the future, or already, but I think the value lies in telling stories and telling your story.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we were talking about this earlier, in an overflow of musical content,

[SPEAKER_00]: musical personalities becomes much more important and i think to connect your your musical project to a narrative to a to you to to your identity becomes very important i and i think that is kind of what will separate it from just noise or you know just

[SPEAKER_00]: content.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a story, it's a narrative.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is, you know, something I would spend a lot of time on building that narrative, owning the narrative.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's yours, and no one else.

[SPEAKER_06]: Can I just comment on that?

[SPEAKER_06]: And I also think it's notable how important the values of musical skills and hard work and also creativity and originality and emotional expressions

[SPEAKER_06]: how those values have been emphasized throughout history in terms of music.

[SPEAKER_06]: And I don't think that they will suddenly disappear.

[SPEAKER_06]: But it might be other ways of seeing those things.

[SPEAKER_06]: But I think that also reflects when we listen to music what we value.

[SPEAKER_01]: So since I've been here, I had a chat last night about the way that the university is set up and this idea of aesthetics.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that really caught my imagination.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like it really, really caught my imagination.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that super trumps your storytelling.

[SPEAKER_01]: I actually think the way you've set that up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the first thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Second part is that when you asked me the question about AIOK, because I forget I'm the founder or CEO of a startup and all this, but I am, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I had forgotten about AIOK.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's all I do all day.

[SPEAKER_01]: And people are working in different time zones.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I forgot about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason I forgot about it was because when you were talking to me about how the workflow was,

[SPEAKER_01]: I was kind of going, that sounds like a lot of fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: And my mind was going, Jesus, yeah, if you plug that in with that and you kick that around, that would be kind of like... And I'm not blowing smoke.

[SPEAKER_01]: I actually was just tripped off for the first time in ages.

[SPEAKER_01]: So curiosity...

[SPEAKER_01]: about technology, being disrespectful and imaginative.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then that, as a process, is your aesthetic, whatever way it goes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I actually just want, you know, I want to thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: That part plus the aesthetics part, it was just, I think that's where music should be okay, if you stay on that part.

[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Would you also like to say something Elisa?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I do actually want to say something and it's about, I feel like we're all getting into music because we want to say something.

[SPEAKER_04]: There's something we want to convey and it's always going to be very very personal because each one of us has a vastly different experience when we're in this world, when we want to create music.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I think AI is never going to take away from that.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's only going to be an addition because only I have this specific thing that I want to convey when I'm making music.

[SPEAKER_04]: And if AI can be a tool to help me get that exact feeling that I want to convey out, that's just a super addition to that.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I think it's about being very open-minded and it's about having the choice.

[SPEAKER_04]: You can choose to use it.

[SPEAKER_04]: You can choose to stay away from using it.

[SPEAKER_02]: using it they're both fabulous choices to make and just be open-minded and try everything at this point so be critical be creative be curious tell your story and keep an open mind give a round of applause to our panelists