Why Bible Knowledge Isn't Enough with Reverend Kimberly Braxton (Ep 178)

Episode 178 • 6th August 2026 • My Ministry Mission • Jason McConnell

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Jason McConnell: Thank you for listening and welcome to the podcast. I'm your host, Jason McConnell. Before we get started, I wanna ask you something. When was the last time you read your Bible and felt nothing change? You read it, you understood it, you could explain it to someone else, and then you go right back to the same patterns, the same struggles, the same distance from God you've been trying to close for years.

Seminary and was ordained in: 2022

Her work is about closing the gap between head knowledge and a life that is actually being changed, and the story behind the work is one that she has lived all the way through, not just studied. Reverend Kim is the author of Saved, Celibate, and Sinful, and has a pride quiz on her website, uniqueandcomplete.com, that I invite you to take after this episode is over, of course.

Be sure to check out the show notes for this link and others. But before you do any of that, let's get started with today's guest.

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Jason McConnell: Reverend Kim, welcome to the podcast, and thank you for giving me the gift of your time today, or giving us the gift of your time.

Rev. Kim: No, thank you so much for having me. It's a, the gift of the invitation

Jason McConnell: Oh, I appreciate that. I always tell people, you know, you can, you can make more money, you can, you know, make more things, but you can never make more time, and it's the most precious thing you can give. So I, I just wanna show my appreciation there.

Rev. Kim: Thank you

Jason McConnell: Um, so I love to get to know the li- listen-- let the listeners get to know you.

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Jason McConnell: Um, starting with, uh, you call it your anchor verse or your f- the favorite verse that you sent me, um, which was Galatians 3. Uh, sorry, Galatians 3:3, which reads, "Are you foolish? After being by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?" And to me, that sounds like Paul is pretty frustrated with people who should know better.

What, what happened in your story that made it so personal to you?

Rev. Kim: I mean, and s- I read it in the Amplified version too, and it makes it so much more spicy when you read it because he was just upset. And in the Amplified it says, "Are you so foolish and senseless?" I was like, oh. "Having begun your new life by faith with the Spirit, that you're now being perfected and reaching spiritual maturity by the flesh. That is, by your own works and efforts to keep the law."

Jason McConnell: Yeah, that's, that's pretty rough.

Rev. Kim: I read that and I was just like, "I just need to lay down." Like there's, there's no, there's no comeback for that one. Well, what, what had happened in my life at that point, the reason that became my anchor verse, is that it pulled me back from the ledge. Because I had conflated the work of ministry with relationship with God. And even before that, I always had a tendency to put works above faith, even before becoming Christian. Now, you work hard, you get promoted. You work hard, you move up. You work hard, you get a scholarship. So work, work, work, work, work.

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Rev. Kim: So once I became an ordained reverend and I started the work of ministry, it just-- I started to burn out because it was so much work, I was cutting my time with God short because I figured in my mind, "Hey, know, we got this 'cause like I'm doing ministry. Like we cool." And like, "We cool, and, you know, I have this meeting, I have this paper, I have this thing, I have this speaking engagement.

I have all of these things." then what happened was is I was getting burnt out, and I got overrun by, um, the spirit of pride, and I was being tormented, and I couldn't sleep, and I had no peace. so at that point, my, um, devotional time had become very, um, Pharisee, very regimented. Like wake up in morning, say prayer, say declaration, read Bible, go to work, say prayer, read Bible. And I wasn't making any progress. I'm like, I still feel, I said, "I still feel this weight. I still feel this yoke of bondage. I still feel this devil on my neck. This is terrible. I'm praying. I'm fasting. Nothing's moving." So this one night I came home from work, and I sat down at my dining room table and I said, "Okay," I like to read the Bible out loud. I was reading the Bible out loud, and it was in the NLT, the nice version of this verse, 'cause I don't think I could've taken the Amplified at that time. And I read chapter three of Galatians out loud, and it froze me in my tracks. And I was like, "This is what happened to me." And the Holy Spirit started speaking. And it-- He brought back all of the work, He brought back like, He brought back the love and the joy of when I first got saved, and He's like, "You lost that when you started doing the works and all the works thinking that you could control me through works." So I really, I love that scripture because whenever I feel like, oh, I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm like, go back to that text because it's never about the works.

It's always about the relationship. It's always about the power of God. It's always about the Holy Spirit. You are, you are nothing. It's all Him. So that's why it became my, um, favorite verse and, um, and no one can snatch you like Paul. Like- "Oh, foolish Galatians, who has bewitched thee?" I'm like, "Oh, here we go.

Ow,

Jason McConnell: Yeah. Paul was quite the character. Peter's my man though. Peter's my dude. Like, I, I love his recklessness. It's just, it cracks me up, but, but yeah, Paul, Paul will stop you in your tracks for sure.

Rev. Kim: Yeah, he really... I mean, the only other one is like Amos, uh, this prophet Amos when he cursed, "Oh, you cows of you heifers of Bashan." I'm like, "Did you just call these women heifers? Oh, okay, prophet."

Jason McConnell: What do you say to that?

Rev. Kim: It's like, hey, I mean, you're right.

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Jason McConnell: When you, when you first read that verse, was it, like what came first, relief or rebuke?

Rev. Kim: Uh, when I first read that verse, it, it was like a light bulb went off. When I first read the Galatian, I was like, "Oh, that's what it was." And then followed shortly after the light bulb, it was like, "Hey, you got the light bulb? Yeah." Conviction.

Jason McConnell: Yep, there you go.

Rev. Kim: I was like, "Wow! Oh. Oh, gosh." And so I had to g- I had to go and pray and, like, confess and repent and ask the Lord for guidance because I'm like, "Show me where I went off track.

Show me where the curve in the road was. Um, show me where I started deviating," because it wasn't all at once. It was very... 'Cause, you know, the devil is very wile and cunning and what is it? Subtle and subtil. So I'm like, "Show me where the, where the bend was so that I don't have to suffer like this again, and that I don't have to hurt y- hurt his feelings again," because I know he must have been deeply hurt.

Like, "Girl, what are we doing down there?"

Jason McConnell: Yeah. I like it.

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Jason McConnell: So, so much like me, you were, you were not raised in the church.

Rev. Kim: No

Jason McConnell: a- and I, I love it when I run across people who came to faith later. Um, so te- I mean, tell me about the first time you actually walked through the door of a church with intent

Rev. Kim: The first time I walked through, and I love the way you said the question because I went to Catholic school And

Jason McConnell: Right

Rev. Kim: but it's the difference when you walk in with intention. Um, the first time I did it is I had a friend. I was young, I was in my early 20s, and we used to go out clubbing in New York together. Her name is Angela. We're still friends to this day. we had had a huge blowup fight. Huge blowup. We had reconciled, and so everything was going along fine. And then next thing I know, she tells me, "I gave my life back to the Lord, and I'm not going to the clubs anymore." I'm like, "I don't know what any of those words mean.

Are you gonna be ready at 10? Like, we gotta get there by 10 if we plan to get in." And she was like, "I'm not going." And she threatened me. She said, "I will never speak to you again if you don't come to church with me in the month of December." And we had had such a big blowup that I was like, "I don't feel like fighting with this chick again.

Let me just go to church." So the one week I was gonna go, I had come home late from partying, I said, "Okay, I gotta go this December 'cause the next week is Christmas, and I'm not gonna be going down there at Christmas." And when I went down, the first thing I noticed was it was like a lot of singing, a lot of noise, and a lot of activity. And I'm like, "There's a lot of movement here," 'cause I came from an Episcopal background. And then, uh, the next thing was is when the pastor started preaching. He said, "Well, I was gonna preach this message last week, but the Holy Spirit told me to hold back." He said, "But I'm feeling released to preach it this week." And he

Jason McConnell: Oh boy

Rev. Kim: called Don't Look Back. it was like he had read my journals, he had gone through my mail. It was-- It, I felt like he was speaking directly to me about everything I had been struggling with up to that point. I think I cried through the entire sermon. then when he opened the altar up, I didn't even know what an altar call was.

He was like, "Does anyone wanna receive Jesus?" I didn't know what those words meant, but I knew I needed to be where he was 'cause he had what I was looking for.

Jason McConnell: Yeah

Rev. Kim: He He, introduced me to Jesus. And from that point on, Angela was like, "I didn't know that you weren't a Christian." And I was like, "I don't even know what that means."

Like, and so her mother-- I didn't have a car at the time, and I wasn't working. I had gotten laid off. So I would catch the train to Rahway, New Jersey, from my house in New Jersey, which was about a 35-minute train ride, if I remember accurately. would be getting dressed, and her mother discipled me because she had always heard all of her mother's, like, stories and stuff.

Like, her mother would disciple me, tell me about prayer, tell me about the Holy Spirit, talk to me about church, and, like, kind of bring me up to speed. So I would, without a car in the middle of winter in New Jersey, it was Bible study on Wednesday in Rahway, prayer, prayer meeting in Friday in Rahway, going to church on Sunday in Rahway, and that's how I came to, that's how I came to faith.

And it was just so a lo- alive and dynamic, and the pastor was young. was, uh, and like, it was like, "Wow, this is really cool. I like this. This is great." And that's how it happened.

Jason McConnell: I like it. It, it's funny you mention that because, I mean, I remember the first time I went to church with the, the intention, and I, I can't... I mean, I know the sermon was on, uh, the Apostle's Creed, and I c- I'd probably go back and watch it on YouTube on a church's website, but, uh, I don't remember much of the message.

But I do remember how I felt, and I do remember being brought to tears, and I, and I remember distinctly having the sense of, uh, of, of, not a voice, but a, a feeling of welcome home, and it was such a relief that I just kept going.

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Rev. Kim: Yeah, I went back that next Wednesday, and I was-- now it was a, a pes- a Pentecostal church, and I had no idea what that meant. So I just knew like, "Oh, it's a Pentecostal church. They're supposed to wear skirts." Now I'm young, 20-some, I'd say 22, maybe 23, and I was like, "Well, the only skirt I have is my corduroy skirt that I wore to the club, so I'll wear some opaque tights with it, and I'll come in that way."

So I had this 18-inch miniskirt with black opaque tights, with a sweater, and stacked heels, and I'm sitting on the second row with my legs crossed, and this church mother was, like, rolling her eyes in disgust at me. she said, said something snide to me, the pastor said to the congregation, he said, "Leave the new converts alone."

Jason McConnell: Wow. Yeah

Rev. Kim: like, he was like, "Leave the new converts alone." He like-- they, first of all, they don't know Jesus long enough, like they may curse you out, and your feelings will be hurt. But,

Jason McConnell: Right?

Rev. Kim: but he was like, "The Holy Spirit will adjust hemlines. He will do what he needs to do. Leave the new converts alone." And then eventually, like, you know, as I went on, I was like, "Hmm, I don't think, I don't think I'm supposed to be wearing that anymore.

Oh, let me go change into something else." But he-- it was such a warm, welcoming place. Like, I felt like I was, I felt like I found what I had been looking for but didn't know what it was

Jason McConnell: That's amazing. And I, I love how you keep saying, "I didn't know what that mean," because that, that was the feeling that I had after I got baptized. I got this sense of being called to ministry, and I'm like, I, I don't... What is ministry? Like, what does that mean?

You know, Lord, I need a little help, so... And that's actually where this podcast came from, was, was me finding my place in ministry.

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Jason McConnell: Um, anyhow, so you, you went to seminary, which most people would take as a sign of heading deeper into faith. Um, is that kinda how that feeling, that season went? Or what, what did it look like from the inside?

Rev. Kim: I mean, you say when you, when you were called to ministry, you were like, "What does that mean?" I had the same question, and I'm like, "Well, I'm not a nun. I'm not Catholic. Like, what does this look like?" And so I met a couple of women at my new church, and they was like, "Oh, we're in seminary. You should go to seminary." I was like, "Oh, okay. Well, uh, what's a seminary? What's a cemetery? Like, I don't understand

Jason McConnell: All right

Rev. Kim: And they were like, "Oh, it's where you go to learn about God, and then you get your li-" I was like, "Oh, okay, so this is a step of getting into ministry." what I found out was, I'm gonna say something controversial, and I

Jason McConnell: Fair

Rev. Kim: And the easiest place to backslide is in seminary

Jason McConnell: Okay

Rev. Kim: It's incredibly easy to backslide in seminary. In fact, you will find hellions in seminary.

Jason McConnell: Really?

Rev. Kim: The reason, being is, is that you spend so much time studying about God and not knowing God.

Jason McConnell: So it's,

Rev. Kim: much head knowledge, but

Jason McConnell: know

Rev. Kim: heart, no heart, no spirit. And it's like, um, like I think it was Paul who said, "I did not come to you with excellency of speech, but with power of the Holy Ghost." I went to, uh, I went to a seminary that was, um, Christian and Missionary Alliance, and they believed in deliverance. They believed in, um, the Holy Spirit, but there was no Holy Spirit or power in those classes about theology, pneumatology, uh, studying re- the Book of Revelation, pre-trib, post-trib.

None of that had anything to do with anything. So as I was in seminary, the Jesus that was in my heart started to slowly creep up to my head, and it

Jason McConnell: Gotcha

Rev. Kim: it became head knowledge. And it is-- If you're called to seminary, if you're called to high academic learning, you have to learn those. Like you have to learn like Hebrew and the different translations and the different, um, verb tenses, the Puwal, the Hithal, the P- but if someone needs to go to the Lord, I'm not gonna tell them, "Oh, this was translated in the Puwal tense of the verb, which means that it's a continuous..."

It, it makes it, it, it doesn't matter what the price is. It doesn't matter. talking about a soul, not about a verb tense. And, and in, in seminary, that's what you focus on, and you focus on the theology, and you focus on debates. And if you are not grounded in a church that is Spirit-filled, Spirit-led, and a community of believers who can keep you accountable, it is very, very easy to drift into accumulation of knowledge for knowledge sake, instead of asking the Spirit to be the great revelator of the text. So I look back at my seminary days, and I know that the time was not wasted because He will redeem the time, because He'll make all things work out for good. Like He'll even make my mistakes work out in my favor.

Jason McConnell: Absolutely

Rev. Kim: But, I would question someone who says to me, like a younger person says, "I have a call to ministry.

I want to go to seminary." Uh, did He tell you to go?

Jason McConnell: Right

Rev. Kim: Did he lead you to go? Are you going for a particular reason? I, I have a feeling he's sending me back for an advanced degree. Um, w- I can't say we're in active discussions about this. It was mentioned once. It hasn't come back up again, it's a different mindset now. But that's what I would say about my time in seminary. When I came out, I was so arrogant puffed up And I thought I was humble, which is very cute. Very--

Jason McConnell: Right

Rev. Kim: I mean, it's the equivalent of being loud and wrong. Like, just, just be like, "Well, yes, because this scholar wrote about this." And that was another thing about seminary, not to just bash seminaries the whole time. In seminaries, you spend a lot of time reading about the Bible. You're reading in commentaries. You're reading things that are translated from different languages, but you're not really spending a lot of time in the text. And the time that you are spending in the text in Hebrew and Greek, you're so busy sweating trying to remember your verbs and your sight vocabulary that you're not getting any revelation. So it was, um, for me, I won't say it was a waste of time. I won't, I won't degrade it like that because He sent me there for a reason. But I will say that, um, the enemy used it for his advantage to really drag me out of the spirit and into the flesh

Jason McConnell: Gotcha. All right.

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Jason McConnell: So, uh, last kind of, we'll call it icebreaker question is that you're, you're based in Boston, and any- anybody knows about the cost of living in that area, that poses a question , how did you end up there?

Rev. Kim: Uh, you know what? I ask-- I can't even say I ask myself that all the time. Um, it was the Lord. It was very funny the way it all came about because I've, I'm born and bred Jersey girl, like, you know, french fries on the boardwalk with malt vinegar and ketchup. You know, just Jersey Shore all the way. And then I started having-- the Lord speaks to me s- um, in dreams. I started having a series of dreams about Boston, a city I had never been. I had never been to Boston. I had never seen it before. All of a sudden, I'm waking up and I'm like, "South Station? Is that such a thing?" And I'm looking it up. I'm like, "Wow, there is such a thing." And I'm, I'm having these dreams. So I brought the dreams to my apostle and the leadership of my now church, Ignite, they said, "Why don't you go up to Boston and see how you feel there? Go for a long weekend." I went there for a long weekend. I came back, more dreams. Um, and then the other prophets in the church were like, "Hey, I had a dream about Reverend Kim. She's moving to Boston." Or-- And people who hadn't even known that I had had these series of dreams about the city. So after a long series of I'm going, I'm not going, I'm going, I'm not going, because at the time my father was very ill, um, I finally got on the obedience train, and the Lord made a way out of no way, and it's actually an, an answered prayer.

He gave me everything I asked for, down to the fact that I was very specific. I was like, "I want an apartment with a window in the living room, a window in the bedroom. I want on-site parking." And everything I asked for, He gave me.

Jason McConnell: Wow

Rev. Kim: like, perfect. And I was like, "Well, thank you, Lord. I mean, you can't make it much more plain than this." And that's, that's how I wound up here, 'cause if y- when I told my family, they were like, "You don't know anybody in Boston." I was like, "I don't know a soul." "You, we don't have any family." I was like, "You wouldn't have any family up there." I was like, "Nope, all our family is in the South or in New Jersey." "So why are you going there?" "Jesus."

Jason McConnell: Yep

Rev. Kim: Jesus, get thee out from thy kindred and go to a place where I'll show you. And he just happened to show me a place that's surrounded by water. But in the thoughtfulness of God, you'll appreciate this. I used to work in Tribeca in Manhattan on the water. And so at lunch, I would walk on the water, and I would see the beautiful apartments and the water.

I was like, "Man, I wish I could live in an apartment on the water. I know I can never afford an apartment like this. I mean, this is Tribeca. This is crazy. I could never." And when I got in this apartment, I went to the rooftop and I looked and I was like, "Wait, there's a beach up the street?"

Jason McConnell: Oh, nice

Rev. Kim: they were like, "Yeah, there's a beach up the street.

You didn't know that?" I was like, "Come on, Jesus working it out. Yay.

Jason McConnell: Right

Rev. Kim: Thank you, Lord. You're so thoughtful." So the-- that was really cool that he did that too. I was like, "Oh, you were making sure that I was not turning back."

Jason McConnell: Absolutely.

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Jason McConnell: Uh, so let's, let's kind of backtrack more to the beginning. Um, I think you'd mentioned that you came to faith after college. Your call started to surface, and then something sent you in a different direction for a long time. And I assume that was before the seminary. Um, is that correct?

Rev. Kim: Actually, w-- it was after seminary. I had finished seminary, and what had turned me into a different direction was I came out of seminary with all my haughtiness and head knowledge, I couldn't get ordained if you put me in a wet paper bag. I kept bumping into, I kept bumping into issues. It was like, "Oh, she's in, she's a single woman.

We can't ordain her. Oh, she's a woman. We don't ordain women preachers. she's, she's a Presby- she's not a Presbyterian. She's a this. She's a, oh, you're an evangelical? Well, we don't do..." It was all these excuses. So it was so many different ways around the mountain, and I got so disgusted and frustrated that I just gave up. I called my, um, my seminary degree my mini mortgage, I d- I was like, "I'm not-- I, I can't deal with this anymore." I was-- I had just given up on it, and I said, "Let me just be saved, get into heaven, and call it a day. Like, we'll-- I'll figure it out on the other side. I don't, I don't know what to do with this." So that's where the frustration started, and I, I wound up at a Presbyterian church that fed my head but did not feed my soul. The people were lovely, the people were kind, but it was once again more head knowledge. And I was like, the same soup, different flavor. And, um, a lot of car- a lot of carnality that at this point had become normalized in my life.

Like, I was cursing, I was, um, drinking, I was listening to a lot of secular music. I was basically like, I was the, quote-unquote, "cool Christian" that, um, unsaved people say, "Oh, you're so cool. Like, you drink, you..." I did all of the things except smoke. Never d- never smoked anything. And I don't even say that bragging because with everything else I did, it was like, mm, you might as well.

But, um, but I, was just empty. But I was willing to settle, and I was like, "Okay, well, maybe I'll get ordained in the Presbyterian Church and listen to the dryness of this. They have a great retirement plan, and they have this and that. And you know, they'll be able to..." I was like, girl. Like, I look back now like I don't even recognize this person. that's when I met my apostle And at the time she wasn't my apostle, and she wasn't even an apostle at that time. She was walking in the office of a prophet. And I sent her, um, an email 'cause I heard her on a podcast, and I was like, "Oh, I need to meet her." Like, I think she has the answer of what I'm looking for. And within, I think, the first two minutes of the conversation, she broke me down, like, to tears. She was like, "When was the last time you felt the presence of God?" And I paused and she said, "Wait a minute. I felt the presence of God when I woke up this morning and I got-- went to the bathroom. You have to stop and think about it? Get it together." And so

Jason McConnell: It's tough

Rev. Kim: yeah, and I was like, "But what?" And she was like, in that phone call, it was a Zoom call, she was like the mediator to bring me back, bring me back to the Lord. Like, she had to basically give me instructions on how to find the Lord again I was

Jason McConnell: Oh, wow

Rev. Kim: "What? I don't understand."

And, so that w- that's a whole new story. I don't wanna talk too much, but yeah, that

Jason McConnell: That's fine. That's fine. That's, that's, yeah, it's an interesting story, and I, I think you mentioned some of that in our previous call.

Rev. Kim: Yeah, they

Jason McConnell: so we talk about these gaps in, in this, this transition and, you know, you have an amazing story. Is there a specific moment when God started pulling you back that you can...

Like, what broke through first? What... Where did you start drifting back to heart?

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Rev. Kim: I think when it got really dark is when He came in. Because at, at the darkest part that it had gotten is that, and I'll say this because I know there's probably some other, um, Chris- a person who thinks they're a Christian and they're doing the same things. one point, I had started using crystals, I had started-- Uh, I had gone to tarot card readers and, know, "Black Panther" came out, so now I'm looking at ancestral healing and blah, blah, blah.

All this, all this foolishness, all this stuff that will get you sent straight to hell if you're doing it unrepentantly. And, and I was in witchcraft, basically. And so I'm doing all of this stuff. I'm not feeling any peace. I'm feeling like suicidal ideations and just a wreck. So then I meet, um, at the time, Prophetess Kendra, and she must have sensed all of this stuff going on, but she didn't say anything.

There was no judgment. There was no, there was no-- She was like, "You need to go talk to the Lord and talk to Him about your disappointments." Because at the time, my grandmother had just died, and it was a long death. And I was like, "He doesn't talk to me." She was like, "Go talk to Him. up in the morning, turn on this music..."

And the music I had was even dated. Like, you could tell when my walk with the Lord had stopped by the music that I had in my i- like in my iPhone at the time. It was like, oh, this is where it stopped, because so many other songs had come out, and I had no knowledge. So she said, "Play..." And she gave me the album.

She said, "Play this album, wake up in the morning, go in your living room, put your headphones on, and talk to, talk to the Lord." I-- When I tell you, Jason, I woke up that morning, I did not wanna get out the bed. It was the enemy. I know now it was the enemy trying to, like, keep me from getting out of the bed. I was tossing and turning, tossing and turning.

I was like, "I don't wanna get out." Meanwhile, the Holy Spirit was like, "Oh, you can close your eyes if you want to, but I'm gonna keep 'em open. You're getting out there in that living room."

Jason McConnell: Yeah

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Rev. Kim: So I go out to the living room, I turn on the music, and what it was is I was scared. I was scared if I called out to Him and He didn't answer.

Because there were times that I had called out to Him in the midst of my wayward ways, and I'm like, "He didn't answer me." I'm like, of course He's not gonna answer you. You're proud, you're haughty, you're high and lifty up, you're unrepentant, and you're trying to bypass Jesus to go straight to the Father, and the Father's like, "Yeah, that's cute. You need to repent. Get that blood of Jesus on you before you can even-- No. Get yourself together, girl." I went to the living room, and I said some kind of prayer, and I was crying, and I s- I was trying to form these words, and I think I must have repented or something, and I heard this bellow in my spirit like a yell. And it wasn't a mean yell, it was more like exasperation. And He said to me very clearly, "I never left you. You left me

Jason McConnell: Yeah.

Rev. Kim: And I broke down into tears and he started flashing in my mind all the things that I thought where he had failed me, where it was me. I had left him. I had blocked him out. had decided to take it into my own hands.

You hear the pronoun I, I, I, I, I. Pride, pride, pride, pride, pride. And, um, he broke me down like, um-- And I just started crying. And that, that morning was the day that I started coming back to him. And I had, um, uh, Apostle Kendra, she was meeting with me once a week, and so she was kind of-- she was guiding the ship through it.

Like, she asked me, "When was the last time you fasted?" And I was like, "Well, I had a colonoscopy last year." She was like, "Girl, no, that doesn't count." And I was like, "Oh." And so she had me like-- she int-reintroduced fasting to me. She, um, she asked me, "What Bible are you reading?" I was like, "Oh, I'm reading The Message Bible."

And she was like, "The what? No, y- no, you're not gonna read The Message Bi- no, get off of that.

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Rev. Kim: You g- King James, New King James, NIV, NLT, Amplified. no, no Message Bible." And I'm like, "But why? easy And she's like, "No." So she, um, she took me through that, and was-- I have to say that she had so much patience and long-suffering because to deal with a person who is so haughty and lifted up in pride is truly a test on your nerves.

Jason McConnell: Oh, I can imagine.

Rev. Kim: you want to, for lack of a Christian term of saying it, you want to throat punch them. But the Lord

Jason McConnell: Yes

Rev. Kim: He-- You want to knock them off of that chair. But she later on she said to me, um, she said-- She later on I found out, like after we started, um, like not working together, like she was my mentor, she was my leader. She said to me, "I usually know the ones that are mine." And she said, "When you came on the screen, you, you were so over-powdered with makeup. You had this red lip on, you had your hair pulled back in this bun." And I thought-- She said, "I thought to myself, 'Who is this Pharisee?'

Jason McConnell: Oof

Rev. Kim: the Lord said, she's yours.'" And she was like "She's yours. That's your Pharisee. She's yours." And I was like, "Oh. Oh." So she's like, "What?" And it's like, "But I don't..." It's like, "Nope, she's yours." And so the Lord was the one that was like, "Yeah, you're gonna go get her." And 'cause at one point I left, I left. I was like, "I can't take it anymore." I left and the Lord was like, "Go get her

Jason McConnell: Yeah

Rev. Kim: And go, go get her.

And she, she came and got me, and we talked, and, and then I came back, and I've been back ever since. But

[: 00:31:06

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Jason McConnell: It's, it's so funny to hear that story bec- I mean, you know, n- not likening it to your journey, but, uh, but I, I tell people I argue with God. Like I, I've... So I, the person in my life who, who has caused me a tremendous amount of grief, and at one point God told me, "You are going to pray for this person." And of course I'm like, "Yeah, but I don't want to."

You know? And He's like, "Yeah, you're gonna do it."

Rev. Kim: Mm-hmm. Yep. You're gonna do it? Yep

Jason McConnell: And what's funny is that I, I started praying. I started being obedient or thought I was being obedient, but my prayers were very lackluster. I, I didn't mean it,

Rev. Kim: Mm-hmm.

Jason McConnell: but I just kept doing it and doing it and doing it. And over time I noticed that, yeah, God was working the situation, but he was working on me more than anything and changing the way I interacted with this person.

And that's when I'm like, "Yeah, okay. I think I get it. I think I get what you're trying to do here, sir."

Rev. Kim: it'll-- it will truly change your heart to, to pray for somebody that you're just like... And not the-- Did you ever see the movie The Color Purple?

Jason McConnell: I don't think I did. No, I haven't seen that one

Rev. Kim: There's a scene in the movie where Miss Celie says, "Until you do right by me, everything you do is gonna fail." And so I used to say, "Oh, I'll say that Miss Celie prayer."

Girl, that's not a prayer. That's witchcraft. No, you are not gonna-- You will not say that prayer. You will pray blessings over people, and you notice that it's your heart that changes. Your heart changes and your perspective changes. And sometimes I have to ask the Lord, I'm like, "Give me your heart for that person so that I can really start to, um, pray for them, that, that I would have love in my heart for them, because right now I, I don't have it. And

Jason McConnell: Yeah

Rev. Kim: I, need to have it.

Jason McConnell: Absolutely

Rev. Kim: need to have it." So I was like, "Lord, I need some help."

Jason McConnell: Absolutely. So, so I'm assuming that this, this process you went through to dismantle your pride, you know, that, that, I mean, it cleans things up, it, you know, but what does that process kinda look like from the inside? Like, I, I g- I guess where I'm going is, is there, is there a part of this process where you actually flip to the other side and you start to see the momentum, and you start to see the improvement, and you start to like, "I get it," you know?

It, w- you know, when that light went on, I guess is what I'm asking.

[: 00:33:39

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Rev. Kim: The, uh, the beginning of the process is messy.

Jason McConnell: Oh, abso--

Rev. Kim: It's,

Jason McConnell: see that

Rev. Kim: so messy because a lot of times what happens with prideful people is that prideful people can't see that they're proud. So you're trying to tell them you are struggling with pride, and they don't wanna hear it because they're looking at you like

Jason McConnell: Me? Right? Who you talking to?

Rev. Kim: It like, it c- it can't be. Like, you must be speaking to this other person. It's not me. I'm the most humble person that you've ever wanna meet. I'm like Moses a- and it's I'm the most humble person ever. so what happens is, is that prideful people will deny their pride, and pride morphs. So pride will look like insecurity, pride will look like false humility, pride will look like perfectionism, but it's still pride. So you really need someone who has the, their foot on the gas really has the heart of God to deal with that, all of those denials, those twists and turns. Because what happens is there's, um, also has a way of twisting and distorting the way you hear and the way you comprehend. So the best description I ever heard of this that made perfect sense to me was, if I tell you, "Jason, I love your shirt.

It's awesome." And you say, "Thanks, Rev Kim. I like it. It's my favorite T-shirt." But if I say to you, because pride is in your ears, if I say, "Jason, I love your T-shirt," and you're like, "What? You didn't like the one I wore yesterday?"

Jason McConnell: Right

Rev. Kim: It's like something's in your ear. It's a spiritual thing because it's distorting the way you hear.

And here's the thing, the person will actually believe that that's what they heard, and they will actually believe that that's what you said because it's the enemy twisting and distorting. So with pride, it's such a nasty mess at the beginning because you have to actually-- you're praying and interceding with the Lord for him to, like, rip the scales off, to have the Holy Spirit come in and blow his wind and let the spirit of truth come in and to reveal what is actually happening. when that happens, when that break happens, that's when you can start to make progress because until then, a proud person is also what? Very guarded.

Jason McConnell: Yeah, absolutely

Rev. Kim: They're very guarded. They're very stiff. It's like all in their neck, and they're just like, "I don't want to talk to you." Like, they'll shut you down. You can see it in the eyes.

They don't-- nothing, nothing's getting through. But it takes the Holy Spirit to come in and be like, "I'm gonna blow this wind, and I'm gonna rip these scales of pride off of you. I'm gonna break this thing's neck off of you so that you can actually hear me clearly." And once that comes in, that's when the conviction comes in.

[: 00:36:23

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Rev. Kim: But that conviction can switch to condemnation real quick you feel the weight of everything that you've ever done, said, um, seen, all of the, all of the things that people were trying to tell you for years, for months, for weeks, and you were just like, "No, no, no, you're too emotional. You're in your feeling.

No, I didn't mean that," blah, blah, blah. Then you see it, you have comprehension, and you realize how many people you hurt, and you're laying on your face before God crying, like sobbing out to God, crying, crying, crying, asking for forgiveness, asking for, you know, mercy. "Please forgive me. I repent. I-- please help me not to do this again." And the Lord forgives you, and now you have to go make amends and apologize to the people that you hurt because, you know, unforgiveness, offense, and bitterness, we don't want to give the devil a foothold. And here comes the devil with condemnation.

Jason McConnell: Yeah.

Rev. Kim: Here

Jason McConnell: I mean, there's, there's a line between the Spirit's conviction and the enemy's condemnation. Uh, you may have mentioned that before.

Rev. Kim: Yeah, and it's-- that weight will sit on you and block your progress because it becomes almost like condemnation in works because the Lord is con- the Lord convicted you bring you to a point of repentance so that you could start the work to get this thing out of you. But then the enemy comes to condemn you, to remind you of your sin, to call you by your sin, and to hold you in that place, and you start to think, "I need to punish myself more because I was such a wretched, vile person that me accepting God's grace for forgiveness was not enough to punish me because what I did was so heinous or heinous that I need to punish myself more than what Jesus' blood could cover. I need to cover myself more because Jesus' blood wasn't good enough." And I'm saying this, you know, tongue in cheek, because if his blood was good enough to forgive me, I would feel forgiven. So instead, I'm gonna fast for ten days with just water and, you know, pray every hour on the hour and just, you know, completely beat myself up for every sin that I ever did and cry and do all this stuff.

And meanwhile, the Lord is like, "As soon as you asked me for forgiveness, I forgave you, and I removed your sins from you as far as the east is from the west. I forgive you. Go and sin no more." Like, what do-- You don't have to do this to yourself. I took that on me, so you don't have to take it on you. And breaking out of condemnation was pivotal.

[: 00:39:06

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Rev. Kim: And so like for me, coming out of pride was, um... I think the first time the breaking point was I was in a hotel room in Boston. I was in a hotel room in Boston. I had come up here to, um, interview with some headhunters, I had, um, just reached that breaking point in ministry where I was like, "I'm burnt out.

I'm, I'm out. I'm done." Like, I need to sit down. leadership was like, "Oh yeah, you need to sit down." And they were like, "Go to Boston, you know, do your work." I was crying in the hotel room on the floor on a towel, and I was crying out to the Lord and I said something along the lines of, "You know, I love the people.

I love your people, and I would, I would have died for your people." And he's like, "I never asked you to do that. I already did it

Jason McConnell: No, that's harsh.

Rev. Kim: And I was like, "What?" like, of course, more crying. But it was-- I could see like, oh, I veered. And that, that was the first time that that happened. And I said, "Okay, Lord." And then He started to rebuild. And once again, coming out of condemnation, it really takes a community. And i-if it's not a community, you need someone that you can be accountable to and be honest with. if you're like, "How are you feeling?" "Oh, I'm fine." "Are you good?" "I'm good." But if you don't say, "I feel so terrible because I did, you know, all of these awful things, and I just feel like the Lord hasn't forgiven me." If you don't have a f- a friend in Christ to say, "Did you pray? Did you ask for forgiveness?"

"Yes." "Then He forgave you. Let's start going through. He is faithful and just to forgive you of all sins and for, um-- If you confess your sins, He's faithful and just to forgive you of all unrighteousness. So let's start walking the Word so that you can see that the Word has already shown you that you are forgiven. So get that other voice out of your ears because he's a liar.

Jason McConnell: Yeah.

[: 00:41:13

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Jason McConnell: Yeah, I mean, people, you, you repent, you ask for forgiveness. They, you know, I don't know if maybe p- people forget to tell you, you also have to accept it.

Rev. Kim: Yes.

Jason McConnell: It's freely given, but you have to accept it

Rev. Kim: and if you don't accept it, it's like, it's like you're telling-- It's like an ungrateful child at Christmas.

Jason McConnell: Yes

Rev. Kim: it's like you worked all year, you worked so much overtime so you can... Like, the big gift when I was a little girl at one point was the Barbie Dreamhouse.

Jason McConnell: Okay.

Rev. Kim: I

Jason McConnell: Okay

Rev. Kim: imagine my father working all that overtime to buy me the Barbie Dreamhouse and me waking up and saying, it's yellow."

Jason McConnell: Eight. Right

Rev. Kim: you better be happy with this yellow dream. you know, just ac-accept the gift that it was, that was freely given, but that was, that is priceless

Jason McConnell: Yeah. Yep, absolutely

Rev. Kim: what helped me come out of that condemnation was, um, was initially an illustration by a woman in our church. Her name is, um, her Pro-Prophetess Milan, lovely lady. And she said to me, uh, she could see the condemnation written all over my face. She knew it. She was-- It was like weighing on me for months. And at one point I was like: "Don't even call me reverend. It's, I'm not even, I'm not even worthy of..." They were like: "No, you're a reverend. You're ordained reverend." I'm like: "Oh, but I'm not worthy."

Like it was a mess. um, she said to me: "Reverend Kim, you, um, had a little girl and you had a vase in your house and she was playing basketball, and you told her, 'Don't play basketball in the house because you might break the vase.'" And I was like, "Okay, yeah." She said, "And she was still playing basketball in the house and she broke the vase."

I was like, "Yeah." "What would you do?" I would say, "Well, you know, I told you not to do that. Now you broke my, my favorite vase. Um, you know, I'm very upset." "And if," she said, "what if she apologized?" I would say, "I forgive her," and then I would pick up the pieces and see if there would be some way that I could put it together or I would buy another vase and I would tell her, "Please don't play basketball in the house again." And she said, "And that's what the Lord does for you."

Jason McConnell: Yeah, absolutely

Rev. Kim: And I was like, I was like, "What?" She was-- And I'm like, it's just that wow.

[: 00:43:27

---

Rev. Kim: And the revelation that just came to me recently was I was reading the, um, parable of the prodigal son, and I realized that I was looking at the Lord not as if he was the father in the story, but when I was operating-- when I was looking at the Lord like he was the older brother

Jason McConnell: So, okay

Rev. Kim: So I was looking at the Lord like, I did all these things. I messed up. I'm so terrible. I'm so awful." It's like, "Mm-hmm. Out there in these streets. Look at you coming back here and you want us to kill the fattened calf? You're not getting anything." I was like, "Oh my gosh, Lord, I am so sorry." Like, I've been, I've been looking-- I, I was looking at you like you were the older brother. Like,

Jason McConnell: Thanks

Rev. Kim: was like, when I sin, I'm looking at you like you're the older brother. Like, there's no grace, there's no forgiveness. You've gotta earn your way back and all this other stuff. And y- it's quite the opposite. You're the father in that story. You're waiting for me to come back home. You're waiting to put me in my cape and put a ring on my finger

Jason McConnell: Yeah, and they give you a feast. Yeah

Rev. Kim: And to be like, "I'm so glad that you're back," and not like, "Why is she here?"

Jason McConnell: Right. Absolutely.

[: 00:44:44

---

Jason McConnell: So I, I wanna make sure we give some time for your, um, your book. Um, your book's called Saved, Celibate, Sinful, and I, I'll be honest with you, that title is gonna stop someone in their s- tracks. It's gonna be like mid-scroll, "Wait, what did I just see?" Um, tell me about, tell us about it and who's it for?

Rev. Kim: Well, you know, well, a good preacher always has a good alliteration, so there, there's that part. So for me, it's about the Christian who thinks that they can have it their own way, who thinks that, um, "Oh yeah, I, I've accepted Jesus and I'm forever saved." And it's not. There-- Holiness is still right. Holiness is still valid, and people try to make holiness like, "Oh, it's out of date.

at's so, that's so, you know,: 1992

Jason McConnell: Mm-hmm.

Rev. Kim: they, they're just like, "Well, you know, we're gonna get married, so we might as well..." Or they're not even thinking about they're gonna get married. They're just like, "I have needs. I'm doing this, and when I find my husband, I'll j- you know, I'll..." And I'm like, "Mm-mm, that's not how any of this works." Like, you don't get a disclaimer on it. And it talks about the other things in, involved in, like why you can't get free. Like why you're struggling and why you can't get free. Because for me, I was, um, like hot to trot with no place to race, which was hysterical to me because it was like I wanted to be out there in these streets, but for some reason the Lord had me under glass like, "Oh, you can want it all you want.

I'm gonna basically make you invisible so you ca- you're not gonna be able to do a lot of what you think you're gonna do." And for

Jason McConnell: Right

Rev. Kim: book will help people who are at that point that are like, "I'm tired of confessing for the same sin over and over again. How do I get this thing off of me?" And in this book I dealt with s- uh, perversion from a sexual context, but I actually wanted to write an addendum to the book because of per- perversion just in its whole distorting context, the way it twists and distorts everything.

[: 00:47:11

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Rev. Kim: But for this book, it talks honestly about things that people don't wanna mention, like romance novels that women read that for some reason aren't classified as porn

Jason McConnell: Yeah. Yep

Rev. Kim: um, like the TV that we watch that people are like, "Oh, I can watch that on TV." I was horrified. One night I was watching TV with my dad, we were watching Starz, and I had to get up and leave the room.

And he was like, "What is this? This is like soft porn." I was like, "Uh, oh gosh, I w- I don't know what this is on TV. Like, what is happening on the Starz network?" But for some reason it's okay because it's not, quote-unquote, porn. No, it's not okay. The music that we're listening to. And so it helps to flush that out.

And I tried to make it funny. Like, "Hey, hey guys, let's, let's try to keep this light, but just know that you got some choices to make, and this is why." And the, the chapter that horrified, um, that horrified my mother and my father was a chapter about mastu- and it was a chapter about masturbation. They were absolutely horrified.

They were like, "You have to pull this book. It's embarrassing. You're gonna-- You're telling too many details. It's awful. It's..." And for a period of time, I did pull the book because they got in my ear. And then my apostle was like, "Wait a minute. I tried to... Where is your book?" I'm like, "Oh, I

Jason McConnell: Yeah,

right.

Rev. Kim: I pulled it from Amazon."

And she was like, I was like, "Well..." And I came up with all these excuses. And then finally she was like... I told her, I was like, "Yeah, my parents told me." She was like, "Get them out of your ear. People need to read that book. People need to hear that testimony." I put it back up. And so that's the, that's who the book is for.

Like, for people who are... Sometimes I meet new converts and they're like, "Do I have to stop listening to Meg the Stallion?" I'm like, "If you get a close enough relationship with the Holy Ghost, you won't want to listen to Meg the Stallion."

Jason McConnell: Right.

Rev. Kim: I

Jason McConnell: Yeah, absolutely

Rev. Kim: I'm like, "I'm not telling you that you should or shouldn't stop drinking.

No one told me to give up gin and tonics. I just knew when I, when the time was right that I did, I never looked back."

Jason McConnell: Absolutely. And it, and you s- you sent me a copy of it, which I greatly appreciate, so I'm, I'm working my way through. It is well-written.

Rev. Kim: Oh, thank

Jason McConnell: and it's e- and it's, and it's easy. It's an easy read. It's not super, you know, it's not high Christianese and, and complicated. It's, it's a very, it's a very good, well-written book so far

Rev. Kim: I do-- I didn't want to do something that, like my final paper in seminary and to be like, "And as you dissect the blah, blah, blah." I was like, "Girl, you barely made it through that paper yourself." Like no one, no one's gonna wanna read something that dry. Just something like light and just little sections at a time with questions and answers at the end of it to keep people grounded in the word so that they don't lose track of it. And that's, that's why I wrote the book, and I, um, I went back and it really meant a lot to me because a friend told me that I gave the book to. He was like, "Oh, you wrote that book?" I was like, "Oh, wait, you read it?" He was like, "Yeah." He was like, "It was great." He was like-- And I told him, I said, "I had pulled it."

He was like, "No, people need to hear this." And so I was like, "Okay, confirmation."

Jason McConnell: And I think it was the forward in it. I read that and I'm like, "This is, this is a little rough. Like, you're being a little hard on this lady." But it was, it was a really good, like at the end, it was a really good forward. But started out, I'm like, "Is this a friend or..."

Rev. Kim: Oh yeah, the, oh, it was just, oh, just terrible. I was terrible, terrible, terrible. But you know what? Thank God for growth.

Jason McConnell: Right. And it's, it's a beautifully honest book, uh, as far as I can tell from start to where I am now. So, um, genuine and, and honest, and I, I appreciate that

Rev. Kim: Yeah, when I, um, told her, when I lied to her face and she was like, "Are you dreaming?" I'm like, "No, of course I'm not dreaming." I'm dreaming all the time. I'm dreaming all the time. And she was like, "Oh, okay, cool, cool. You're not dreaming? Okay. Play the Book of Ezekiel on your nightstand when you go to sleep, and then me what happens when you woke up in the morning."

I didn't even make it through the night. I was having so many dreams. I was like, "What is going on?" And she was like, "Hey, did you have any dreams?" "I confess, yes." And she's like, "What have you been dreaming about?" It's one of those burdens when people know that you dream, they're like, "So you're not dreaming." Either s- either you're too busy, you're too tired, you're on medication, or you're fibbing, or lying.

[: 00:51:44

---

Rev. Kim: But, um, you asked me what it looks like when you break out of pride and you're coming to the other side. Um, I still know that there are areas in my life where I need to completely eradicate pride because it will pop up in different seasons of my life.

It popped up when my father died. It popped up, um, when I get, um, stressed about stuff. So I have to constantly like beat that thing back. what it looks like on this side is that I can breathe I can see because instead of the conviction taking years to take hold, instead of the conviction taking even months, soon as the conviction comes, there can be repentance and a change of heart, that you can go back and start doing the work. Uh, and um, that really for me was the biggest change in that the con- that condemnation, it may hit for a little while, but it doesn't linger for months at a time. Like you're-- you feel, you feel the Holy Spirit leading you through it, and you remember, what is it? Revelation 3:19, that He disciplines those who He loves as sons, and that if He didn't love you, He wouldn't be disciplining you because He wants, He wants you to come into glory with Him.

He wants you to spend eternity with Him, so He is going to discipline you on this side of heaven to get your tail in line so that you can, you know, be in alignment with Him. And so that's why I like working with people because I sometimes see myself in people. I'm like, "Oh yeah, you got it. Okay, let me talk to you for a minute.

Jason McConnell: Right

Rev. Kim: Let me talk to you

Jason McConnell: That's awesome.

[: 00:53:32

---

Jason McConnell: Well, uh, I'm gonna go ahead and wrap this up. Uh, I, I mean, we could go on for another hour, I'm sure. But, um, but I wanna be respectful of your time and the listeners' time. But if today's conversation stirred something in you, Reverend Kim has some real tools to take you further. There's a pride quiz at uniqueandcomplete.com.

It's free. It's honest. Be honest when you're taking it. Uh, and it'll show you something about yourself you may have been too busy to stop and see. Her book, Saved and Celibate-- Saved, Celibate, and Sinful is out on Amazon right now. It is there, I confirmed. Uh, so go check that out. If you're ready to go deeper, um, discipleship cohorts and mentorships are available through her ministry at uniqueandcomplete.com.

So all of that's gonna be in the show notes. Please go check it out. As you can tell, she's an amazing person. Um, Reverend Kim, is there any final thoughts, uh, final words for the listeners?

[: 00:54:25

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Rev. Kim: Um, I would say this, that, um, Holy Spirit, what is it? That there is no sin too big for the Lord to forgive. Like He-- There is no sin that He... to Him, listen to Him. If you feel the conviction on your heart, don't allow shame to hold you back. you feel like you've been backslidden or if you are backslidden and you think, "I can't go back to the Lord because I've done this, I've done that," come back.

He's waiting for you like the father and the son, the father in the prodigal son story, and He's the father, He's not the elder brother. So come back home, because when you come back home, the love of home. You'll feel the warmth of home, you'll feel the Father's love, and He will discipline you, but He will love you to wholeness, and He will pick you up, and Jesus is always there. don't feel like, can't go back because I've been living with somebody for five years." You can come back, and when you come back, we can find you another place to live or find them another place to live. And every- and everyone can-- You can come back home. And so I would say that, and I would also, um, to the seminary students, don't get so caught up in your book knowledge that you forget to spend time with Jesus Don't get so caught up in your book knowledge and trying to complete your papers and do your dissertations and work on your exegesis that you forget to spend time with the Holy Ghost, who can give you the true revelation of the text. when you get out here, being able to translate is not gonna save, it's not g- it's not gonna save anybody. You need to be able to have an active, dynamic relationship with the Lord, be able to hear His voice and discern His voice, and be able to build your ministry not on your plans that you learn in preaching class and your preaching cohorts, not in the plans that they teach you in the textbooks. Your ministry needs to be built on the foundation of prayer and the Lord. Because if you build it on anything else, it will crumble, and it will take you with it. So spend time with the Lord getting to know Him and focusing on relationship while you're in your studies so that you don't drift apart, because you can be a doctorate of ministry and still be saved and filled with the Holy Ghost, you need to cultivate that relationship. And, um, if you want to follow me, I'm also on Instagram, and now they actually got the nerve to put me on TikTok, so I'm learning how to, learning how to, to do the Tik and the Tok, so I'm getting there. Like I'm, I'm learning, I'm learning. I had to, I had to get hip. I think I'm one of the two older members in my church, so I had to get like, you know, to get there.

I was like, "What are we doing?" they're like, "You gotta be on TikTok." I'm like, "I don't even know what that is." learned. I learned. I had to learn. And

Jason McConnell: That's awesome

Rev. Kim: Rev Kim. Um, yeah, it's Rev Kim

Jason McConnell: Absolutely. So Reverend Kim, thank you. I'll make sure all of that gets in the show notes. Uh, what you brought to this conversation today is honesty, uh, you know, honesty about the wandering, the grief, the, the condemnation season. Uh, you even touched on your father's passing. None of that is easy to put on a microphone, and you did it, and I know people are gonna be changed by this.

I know the Lord will send this to the right person. Um, for everyone out there listening, the gap between knowing scripture and actually being changed by it is, it's absolutely real, and, and you're not broken for feeling stuck in it. The answer is not just knowing more. It's letting what you know reach your life.

It's your patterns, your daily walk with God. You know, reconnect with, with Jesus, reconnect with the Spirit, reconnect with God, and that requires accountability. It requires community. It requires a willingness to let God do what He is trying to do, even when it's painful, and that includes accepting that forgiveness.

So, uh, Reverend Kim is living proof that what's on the other side of that is, is, is pretty awesome. So thank you again for joining me.

Rev. Kim: Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. It's awesome

Jason McConnell: Awesome. God bless you.

Rev. Kim: God bless

Jason McConnell: And for the listeners, until next time, keep loving your neighbors, dive into God's Word daily. May the Lord bless you and keep you and fill you with His peace. Take care, God bless, and I'll see you in the next episode

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