Shownotes
After coming under attack from the Ontario NDP for criticizing the Party, host Jessa McLean jumped into the studio to record a response. It is a deeply personal account of her journey through partisan politics in an attempt to explain why the NDP is trying to silence her, and how this is part of a larger pattern to push out socialists and internal advocates.
To read the letter from the Ontario NDP referenced in the episode in full, Jessa has included it on her Twitter feed:
Transcripts
Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints
Speaker:of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining
Speaker:power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,
Speaker:we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle
Speaker:capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know
Speaker:we need. Greetings, audience. This is certainly a unique episode of Blueprints of Disruption,
Speaker:a deeply personal one for me. If any of you follow me on Twitter, you'll know that the
Speaker:Ontario NDP has launched an attack on me, a pretty unsubstantiated grasping at straws,
Speaker:defamatory sort of attack. But either way, here we are. And although I was asked to keep...
Speaker:this nonsense confidential and quiet. I think we all know that's just not my style, nor does
Speaker:that serve transparency or democracy any good. So I'm here today to kind of walk you folks
Speaker:through my NDP story. So this episode is going to be a little bit of a therapy session. I've
Speaker:been joined by my wonderful comrades, Jay Woodrove. and my comrade and producer, Santiago, hello,
Speaker:Quintero. And they're gonna help me just probably emotionally get through this episode, try to
Speaker:keep me on track. Maybe they'll ask some questions, some folks you are wondering yourself. Either
Speaker:way, I'm gonna start off by explaining how we got here. Why, it'll help folks understand
Speaker:why I'm under attack. by the NDP, I have been for some time, this is just kind of an escalation
Speaker:of tactics. And I think it will mirror many of your experiences within the party on how
Speaker:I entered this partisan space, how I was treated as a socialist and a dissenter, and how I feel
Speaker:about the party now. Although I'm extremely stressed out about this kind of attack. despite
Speaker:distancing myself from the party. I'm gonna go through it with you all anyway, because
Speaker:I want this to serve as like that final warning to folks, they absolutely will do this to you.
Speaker:There's nothing terribly unique about my experience except for perhaps I have shouted the loudest
Speaker:and maybe the longest about how off of this party is. I really don't know, but either way,
Speaker:here we go. I just want, yeah, I wanna make a note, like I'm not the first person. and
Speaker:I won't be the last person. We've had plenty of public stories come out of mistreatment.
Speaker:In fact, we've dedicated quite a few episodes here on Blueprints of Disruption that have
Speaker:amplified some of those stories. I hope maybe some of you will remember them. If not, they're
Speaker:easy to find. Wherever you're listening to this episode, you will find them. They're usually
Speaker:prefaced with inside the NDP. They'll help fill in a lot of the gaps that we won't go through
Speaker:in this hour, but... Essentially, I've given you little tidbits of my story throughout,
Speaker:but I've never really told it in full. I've never come out here and asked for a whole lot
Speaker:of solidarity or defending despite so many blows by this party. But I do think it's time that
Speaker:I kind of tell my entire story. And like I said, it'll explain where we've gotten to. All right,
Speaker:so. How did I join the NDP? I've been a longtime member. I mean, I've got some really rumpled
Speaker:up membership card with... Still has Andrea's face on it, but shit, I got it when I was a
Speaker:teenager. So, yeah, it's... I was brought up in a real leftist household. My dad was a Waffle
Speaker:member. I don't have the time to get into those stories, but he likely understands my experience,
Speaker:we'll say that. I wasn't very involved with the party until I moved up here out of the
Speaker:city. and I absolutely needed to connect with politically minded people. I'd just left University
Speaker:for Political Science where I had been even more radicalized and was determined to organize
Speaker:and push this country left by any means necessary. And I got my feet wet in my local campaign,
Speaker:a provincial campaign for Dave Solosi in York Simcoe. I because their Twitter account hadn't
Speaker:updated anything for the campaign. And if there was one thing that I knew, it was Twitter.
Speaker:And so I was like, hey, you know, the least I can do is I'll run your Twitter account.
Speaker:I'll help boost your signal. That's all I intended to do, you know, it was kind of, it was a lame
Speaker:offer. But I went in and I started helping. And like any small campaigns, you'll know there
Speaker:was, everybody in there was wearing four or five hats. So long story short. I do as I always
Speaker:do when I get into spaces, I do the work that needs doing, no questions asked. And I ended
Speaker:up managing that campaign when the campaign manager bailed. And we did very well. We challenged
Speaker:Carolyn Mulrooney and I was hooked on political campaigns. There was nothing else for me. I
Speaker:loved the excitement of E-Day. the frazzled nature of small campaigns and everybody trying
Speaker:to do everything. And I absolutely love the possibility of going out into conservative
Speaker:territory and talking socialism with these people. I wasn't really able to do that as freely on
Speaker:that campaign, but very soon I ran as a federal candidate in a by-election. That by-election
Speaker:was just me and Jagmeet, right? He was running in Burnaby and... I was running here in Ontario,
Speaker:so no one was watching my campaign, right? Nobody. But I had a lot of support from outside the
Speaker:province and within the province. And you know, my EDA was very supportive. They encouraged
Speaker:me to run. And at the time, the party, they encouraged me to run. I know a lot of you candidates
Speaker:out there have gotten that call from people talking you up, telling you how great you will
Speaker:be as a candidate. Jay, I know you had the same pitch thrown at you. Maybe didn't turn out
Speaker:the same, yeah? But that was fun. And I ran and I did really well. I was able to go toe
Speaker:to toe with conservatives. We raised $20,000 in one night in a writing that would have been
Speaker:our record spending. And we just blew that out of the water. And you know the only phone call
Speaker:that I ever fucking got during that whole campaign? was when I tweeted out about Venezuela. That's
Speaker:when I knew the party was just not the party I thought it was in. Rather than trying to
Speaker:call me and support me and give me a pep talk, or I had the national director, Melissa Bruno,
Speaker:call me right before my very first debate. So I have chronic anxiety. I am throwing up. I
Speaker:am sweating. I am so nervous. And my phone rings and it's the NDP. And all they wanted to do
Speaker:was chew me out for taking a stand against their god-awful position on Venezuela and the attempted
Speaker:coup. And I let them fucking have it. They thought I'm a first-time candidate. They didn't know
Speaker:me from Boo. And I just gave it right back to Bruno. And I think at that point they just
Speaker:knew I was a problem. But I wasn't having it. I told them they were wrong, their position
Speaker:was wrong, I don't care if it's causing bad press. And I know some of you out there don't
Speaker:appreciate my style, that perhaps that isn't politically savvy of me. But for all the other
Speaker:people who actually know me, they know that I am so principled. And I take a position,
Speaker:I take what I think is the right position, not the popular position. And that doesn't make
Speaker:me any friends inside of partisan spaces, I'll tell you that. Not many. That I feel like that
Speaker:was a dig at YouTube. I've made some really good friends too. So yeah, um, I'll walk that
Speaker:back a bit, but either way I run, I run a good campaign. Like I said, we, we raised record
Speaker:money. We had great numbers and I didn't get one thank you phone call. And this is normal
Speaker:for candidates. Yeah. Again, my story is not all that unique, but I'm. I'm now a realist
Speaker:when it comes to the party. But I run again. Don't ask me why, it's very complicated. That's
Speaker:a whole other episode probably. But I ran again. Nobody else in my writing would do it. And
Speaker:I wouldn't have a paper candidate. I guess that's the real, if we want to boil it down. I had
Speaker:built a movement here in York Simcoe. We had doubled our ADA. We had gotten people excited
Speaker:about real leftist policies and politics and... grassroots organizing in this conservative
Speaker:territory. And I didn't want to let that go, but I knew it was in store for me. But I ran
Speaker:by myself. I managed my own campaign. That's what it's like out here, you know, where we
Speaker:have no supports and people don't think we can win. And I doubled the vote share, running
Speaker:as an open socialist, again, on bare bones, bare bones campaign. So despite being really
Speaker:good at what I do, All I ever got from the party was pushback and hostility. So I thought I'd
Speaker:go in and change it up a bit. I wasn't gonna stand for this. This was my party. This was
Speaker:my dad's party. This was the left's party, the workers' party. I wasn't just gonna be like,
Speaker:oh, this space sucks. I'm leaving. This is stressful and it is stressful again. The toll on my mental
Speaker:health has been great. But I walked into my very first Ontario NDP convention. I took the
Speaker:whole family to Hamilton. I couldn't be without Mike. We all went, first time delegate, rookie.
Speaker:And I meet all these great people, especially from Hamilton and Ottawa Center. They just
Speaker:came to me like, it's like they knew me, I guess from my tweets or I don't really know how they
Speaker:knew me. I guess people had been paying attention and I didn't know, right? And these folks,
Speaker:they... They were up until like 2 a.m. They convinced me to run for member at large. Like
Speaker:I had no idea how the process worked at all. They took care of everything for me. I didn't
Speaker:even know them. And I'll tell you, like, I remember so, I just have photographs. It was just such
Speaker:a blur. And true to my form as always, last minute campaign literally formed on the floor
Speaker:at the end of day one. And it was just... A protest campaign, like all my campaigns, just
Speaker:telling them you're not paying attention to the grassroots. You're not trying to change
Speaker:the narrative. You're just trying to win an election. Our job is so much more than that.
Speaker:And that really resonated with people because we had no campaign and I came within 11 votes
Speaker:of making it onto the executive. And if anybody understands internal NDP elections, those members
Speaker:at large, the VP slots, all of those executive slots. are set. The establishment knows exactly
Speaker:who they want in there. So anytime you can mount any kind of challenge to them, I think I'm
Speaker:going to toot my own horn. It was impressive. But I think it the reason it works is because
Speaker:so many people out there are so fucking frustrated with this party that what I was speaking was
Speaker:just pure truth and they voted for it. But I didn't make it on and I might be better off
Speaker:that I didn't because From the stories that we've shared here on Blueprints of Disruption,
Speaker:we know that those executives are absolutely toxic spaces. Another fun tidbit there, our
Speaker:current interim leader, he was a real friend of my writing. He had gone door to door with
Speaker:me. Peter Tabins had helped open my campaign office. Incredibly supportive prior to that.
Speaker:And I asked him because he had been so close. during my campaign if he would endorse me.
Speaker:And he openly told me I was far too radical for him to stand beside me on the floor. So
Speaker:that's what politics does to people. He's not alone in that either. I apologize for kind
Speaker:of centering Peter out there, but yeah, that is quite typical. And I think by the time I
Speaker:get to this part of my story, maybe a few of you have caught up. Maybe that's when you started
Speaker:following my story a little bit on your own, but I ran for the federal president. near the
Speaker:beginning of the pandemic. And I did that encouraged by my new DemoChat family. We'll kind of go
Speaker:into that later because they've been dragged into this sordid tale. And they made it as
Speaker:hard as possible for me in that campaign. I was given no information, no membership lists,
Speaker:no even confirmation that I had registered. They gave me details on. the length of speech
Speaker:I could provide and what kind of format it would be, all last minute, all last minute, just
Speaker:trying to be as difficult as possible. And again, this was a two week campaign and we got 33%
Speaker:of the vote because I got on the floor and I spoke the truth about almost every writing
Speaker:association's experience of being neglected, of campaigns being ruined, candidates being
Speaker:blocked. and folks that had an F. We were shocked with the result, right? In all of these campaigns
Speaker:that I have ever run in the party, the one thing that is, that runs through all of them, the
Speaker:thread that runs through all of them is I never did it to win. And it shocked me. We interviewed
Speaker:Dimitri Lascaris on this show in an episode called Wasted Energy, which really rings true
Speaker:right now. And I asked him that question, like, did you run to be the leader of the Green Party
Speaker:to win? And I thought for sure he'd say yes, because he came so close. It was close. Like
Speaker:that was a, that was a legitimate campaign. I felt like mine was just the opportunity.
Speaker:I just wanted the opportunity to be able to say on the floor of convention what everyone
Speaker:had been saying to one another, what we had all been complaining to one another for, for
Speaker:so long. just nobody have ever said it really like out loud to their face, except for the
Speaker:Socialist Caucus and we know how they're treated. But, you know, they do speak truth. No one
Speaker:likes their tactics, but those are truths. And they've been trying to tear down the bureaucracy
Speaker:for years to their credit. That's all the credit I'll give them right now. You know, and silly
Speaker:me, I try to do this again for the Ontario NDP, run for president. You know, I'll be honest,
Speaker:the results there were not very good. I think it was like 11 percent. I did. Very poorly.
Speaker:I guess I did. It was again, just, there's so much change that's needed in this party and
Speaker:people just keep trying to do it through all these different means. And I thought one of
Speaker:those would be to shape the executive or at least to bring these issues to light to the
Speaker:members as a mass in hopes that they would reform themselves. I was wrong. that party isn't ready
Speaker:for change. So I told that story, one, because I don't think I've ever, you know, kind of
Speaker:gone through it. But also because people keep asking me, why does the party attack you? Why
Speaker:would they do that?
Speaker:Why are you so combative with them? And I think it helps folks to see my progression and my
Speaker:dedication through the party and that it's just been resistance at every turn. And I know that
Speaker:can resonate with some folks out there, but I hope... If it doesn't, you guys can try to
Speaker:imagine what that must feel like to advocate within a progressive party, a party that's
Speaker:supposed to be built on fairness and equity and to just feel nothing but pushback, right,
Speaker:for you trying to change things. When I say I'm under attack, what's that mean? Because
Speaker:I know not everybody's gonna have read the letter. So Santiago, maybe you can help me kind of
Speaker:walk through the letter and explain it to folks. Like... I don't know, maybe you could summarize
Speaker:what it is from a more, a less personal perspective. There's a word that comes to mind that describes
Speaker:the letter pretty well. I mean, it's bullshit is what it is. Sorry that I don't have a more
Speaker:eloquent description right now. I just, I wanna start with that because it is what it is. The
Speaker:letter was...
Speaker:the NDP's best attempt at putting together a smear against you, and I say the best attempt
Speaker:because having read the letter, I'd say it falls quite short. They didn't have anything substantial
Speaker:at all, not even remotely, and a lot of the claims were quite a stretch to say the very
Speaker:least. I'm going to try to objectively kind of give you folks a rundown. Now, I'm not going
Speaker:to sit and read the whole letter. I mean, it's 12 pages of a PDF. It is on my Twitter account,
Speaker:watermarked all over the place, confidential. Please don't share this. I don't operate that
Speaker:way. And these folks aren't going to drag me behind closed doors and try to rake me over
Speaker:the coals. So that's why I tweeted it out. let's run through it just so we can set the stage
Speaker:because then we're gonna tear it apart. I'm gonna respond to it. I'm not gonna respond
Speaker:to it in the way that they want me to respond to it, you know, by, I don't know, November
Speaker:21st via respect at Ontario NDP.ca. I'm gonna do it in the way that feels comfortable for
Speaker:me, that allows me to express myself. So basically they've launched an investigation. This is
Speaker:really rich. The administrative committee. whatever the fuck that is, has given the subcommittee,
Speaker:they've created a subcommittee to investigate the following. All right, and so that's when
Speaker:we get into a list of tweets, essentially, that they don't like. One of them depicts a meme
Speaker:that they claim is anti-Semitic. Again, I have posted all of this on my Twitter for full disclosure,
Speaker:for folks to see that. From the discussions that went around as after I released this,
Speaker:you know, people did some digging on the meme format and apparently it does have some really
Speaker:obscure reference that not one of my Jewish comrades that approached me had known off the
Speaker:bat. It required an intense amount of research to get to that. So clearly the same trope that's
Speaker:been used against the left to say that I'm anti-Semitic, a known advocate for Palestine within the party.
Speaker:This is not my first time that they've thrown that at me. But so apparently that tweet is
Speaker:what launched the initial investigation. And clearly since then, they have been monitoring
Speaker:my Twitter account. Now I'm not an MPP, I'm not an elected. executive of the party. I resigned
Speaker:from my EDA. So I'm not even what you would consider an active member, but they have been
Speaker:monitoring my Twitter account. And I think it serves a good purpose here to mention a few
Speaker:of them because like Santiago said, they're all very ridiculous. So for all of the tweets
Speaker:that they've sent me, they've demanded I answer certain questions, very pointed questions about
Speaker:whether or not I think it violates their harassment policy. Things like, yes, the system is rotten.
Speaker:Of course, replacing key folks won't solve it all. But how do you start to reform a system
Speaker:while the controllers remain at the helm? Dug in. You don't. You clean house first. Can you
Speaker:please advise whether you believe your contact aligns with the objective of the policy? This
Speaker:repeats itself over and over again. Again, all public, you can read it. But they're essentially
Speaker:my valid critiques of the party. I occasionally use language that you hear on the podcast.
Speaker:Yes, I use the F word in some of my tweets. Some of them are very pointed to individuals
Speaker:like Lucy Watson. I say, Lucy Watson can't figure out how to make their meetings accessible.
Speaker:Fire her. I mean, I stand by that statement. Jay, how many times have we said that publicly?
Speaker:I think we've even said it in provincial council and nobody wrote us up for this. The thing
Speaker:that's interesting about that tweet is this committee that launched this investigation
Speaker:would have met on Zoom. So They can find the accessibility for themselves, but not for members.
Speaker:And you call that out and that's a violation. Another irony about this committee that we
Speaker:didn't bring up, but Jay, thank you. We've talked to three executives on the Ontario NDP and
Speaker:none of them were aware that this committee was being struck or that it was, you know,
Speaker:they had no involvement in its initiation. which makes it kind of sound like a bit of a secret
Speaker:committee, which to my knowledge isn't terribly democratic, but, um, I mean, you guys can decide
Speaker:that for yourself. Just for some information, the administrative committee is said to be
Speaker:made up of party officers and the national director, but we don't know the actual list of people
Speaker:who take part in this. This is a subcommittee of the executive and the administrative committee,
Speaker:which we don't know the roster of, strikes the, not just the anti-harassment committees and
Speaker:stuff like that, but any number of committees that they want and their work is confidential
Speaker:for the most part from the executive, which is struck by council. So the executive doesn't
Speaker:know how to report to council on the subcommittees that it strikes. So just to add a little bit
Speaker:of detail to the administrative committee and the process in which this investigation was
Speaker:created, as deep in the shadows as you can be. It sounds scary. It's not really. It's three
Speaker:vice presidents. I'm going to name them because they had the audacity to put their names on
Speaker:this letter and send it to me. And I feel harassed by them. So maybe I should launch a complaint?
Speaker:I don't know. Either way, Vice President Susan Barclay, Ali Shatour, and Alex Felsky are the
Speaker:subcommittee tasked with investigating my online conduct. Now how does that feel? I mean Santiago,
Speaker:I know you- I don't know if you're still a member or whatnot, but I'm gonna put that to both
Speaker:of you folks just for a second. How does that make you feel thinking that the party might
Speaker:be monitoring your Twitter account, taking screenshots, building a file? I mean, for one, it pisses
Speaker:me off that that's what they're, we're wasting their time doing when members are begging them
Speaker:to do something, anything else in this moment. I mean, it's an entire... It's a complete waste
Speaker:of time when there was, as far as I know, virtually no messages to do with the potential general
Speaker:strike that almost happened. Everything that was, everything that we've been going through
Speaker:in this last week with a leadership race coming up, this is what they're using their time for.
Speaker:This is what they're wasting, wasting the donations and money and time doing. I mean, it's an absolutely...
Speaker:ridiculous thing to do and quite frankly with all of the issues that members bring up constantly
Speaker:you would think that you know it should be quite the opposite there have been so many complaints
Speaker:against members of the executive yet there never seems to be an investigation against them and
Speaker:I mean it's very clear why but that's just what comes to mind right now. I'm laughing so hard
Speaker:at what you just said Santiago, because what are the two things this party continuously
Speaker:say? We don't have enough money, we don't have enough people. Is that because they're too
Speaker:busy investigating and monitoring members? Also, it's important to note, what are their affiliations
Speaker:with the federal level? Because one of those names is someone who is supposed to be focused
Speaker:on the team jug meat. So it's interesting that the resources of two parties were used to go
Speaker:and investigate some tweets about you calling out how this party operates partly. It's just
Speaker:when we look at the actual see on if you read the letter and you just read it and judge it
Speaker:based on what it is. You don't actually realize how every single thing in that letter is what
Speaker:you have called them out for doing for years. So it's like, hey, you know what we should
Speaker:do? We should try to smear her, smear her while actively validating everything she has criticized.
Speaker:I do feel very validated. They're punishing you for being accurate. Yeah, yeah, that's
Speaker:my issue there. Like, you know, folks are like, are you worried they'll do this and that? I'm
Speaker:like, they can't hurt me. I don't give a shit about their membership card at all. They can
Speaker:have it. I mean, I say that lightheartedly and I really don't care about my membership card,
Speaker:but I do care that they're gonna do this to the next person and the next person and the
Speaker:next person. And that's just been become the norm when you get too feisty within the party
Speaker:and they don't like what you have to say, they will. do this. You guys brought up two things.
Speaker:They've been doing this. Yeah, no. Definitely, I have seen this happen to so many people and
Speaker:it's definitely not even their first attempt at me. So none of this surprises me. Two things
Speaker:you guys brought up remind me, like that's what you guys are gonna do throughout this. Like
Speaker:remind me of all these tangents that are essentially tied together. But both you kind of mentioned
Speaker:proximity to the Ontario leadership run and the fact that they've been digging, clearly
Speaker:been digging through my Twitter account almost in an effort to pre-disqualify me. Full disclosure,
Speaker:I had no intent and Jay, Jay if there's anyone who knows this so clearly because Jay has asked
Speaker:me about a kajillion times to run and I never... really even considered it. I didn't even humor
Speaker:Jay for very long at all. It was not in my cards, but I can see how they thought it might be.
Speaker:You know, I'm clearly not happy with Merritt being anointed. She's not my idea of a socialist
Speaker:or anybody that will reform the party, and I've said as much. But... It seems strange that
Speaker:they were going through my Twitter account in this time that you say they should be so busy
Speaker:doing this, that, and the other thing. But what we have to remember about this party is holding
Speaker:on to that inner circle's power has always been their number one priority. Not winning elections,
Speaker:not even looking good because this makes them look so bad. They are predominantly occupied
Speaker:most of the time with maintaining their own power. So I think this was a blend of making
Speaker:sure there was no chance I could run for leadership of the Ontario NDP, because we have to remember
Speaker:Lucy Watson, the person who's 100% behind most of this, gets final say on who gets to run
Speaker:and who doesn't. Another huge factor why a lot of grass—there's almost no grassroots member
Speaker:that will attempt to run, because they can likely only expect something like this, you know?
Speaker:And the other point, Santiago— You know, you talked about complaints, harassment complaints,
Speaker:detailed accounts of nomination meetings being so sus, right? Folks with receipts, folks who've
Speaker:emailed them, launched formal complaints, gone public, you name it, you know, from slighted
Speaker:MPPs and the executives. Those wonderful people that said that they would lead this party never
Speaker:investigated any of it. Their current president of the ONDP and the current president of the
Speaker:federal NDP sat through conventions where members just constantly called out all of these internal
Speaker:democratic issues with the party, issues of harassment and oppression. And they didn't
Speaker:investigate one thing. Not one thing, right? Not one of those claims around any of those
Speaker:nomination meetings ever got investigated, but a subcommittee can be launched to investigate
Speaker:a single member and what they consider hostile tweets to other members. Just cause I don't
Speaker:know the answer to this. Out of all the tweets that they pulled up, which one of them is the
Speaker:most recent? Like, are they particularly recent at all? It would have been the petition ones.
Speaker:Or the remove people one. And when would that have been? September. It's November right now.
Speaker:The timing of it begs the question, right? Yeah, they've spent considerable time digging because
Speaker:if we go back to the original meme that they lead off the complaint with, I mean, that's
Speaker:two years old. And then we have things as recent as, you know, the end of the summer here in
Speaker:2022. Yeah, but with that... that original tweet from two years ago, they like to keep receipts
Speaker:for later. So I doubt this committee even investigated it. They just had it presented to them as an
Speaker:issue, took the word of the issue or made the issue apparent. Because there are people who
Speaker:ran four years ago and then for this campaign, they were like, oh, no, because you have. Podcast
Speaker:episodes that are bad, but they remove those podcast episodes like four years ago because
Speaker:the party asked them to remove it in order for them to run So they are rejecting people based
Speaker:off of receipts that are from like four years ago Yeah, well, that's typical too So folks
Speaker:who listen to our episode on the candidate search and all the problems around that if you want
Speaker:to run from the NDP As a candidate for MP or MPP You need to subject yourself to an intense
Speaker:level of scrutiny. I'm not fucking running for anything. There's no reason they should be
Speaker:looking through my Twitter account. So yeah, when you run for candidate, you actually have
Speaker:to upload your entire profile. People have to give up their dating profiles, everything.
Speaker:Your private messages from Facebook are given to them. And that's the reason for taking so
Speaker:long on a lot of vetting is because they go through this. So I want people to understand
Speaker:that your donations... All those letters that you get to meet a certain deadline, to help
Speaker:Team Jagmeet, this and that, those donations are being spent clearly on combing through
Speaker:the social media of its own people. Like we saw in BC how they turned on folks advocating
Speaker:for more leftist policies, eco-socialists in BC, the smear campaign, called them thugs.
Speaker:That's the same right across the province. That is how they view the grassroots as a threat.
Speaker:And that's how they treat us. But they are spending those resources. We have such limited resources
Speaker:compared to the other parties. And we are spending it on policing within our own party, tone policing,
Speaker:making sure the provincial director isn't facing any calls to have her fired. That's one of
Speaker:the other items that they really bring up that they try to come after me for is a petition.
Speaker:So I didn't call Jay on here to kind of scapegoat him, but anybody who links themselves to that
Speaker:petition can see that Jay Woodroof is the author. And yet in this letter to me, they demand to
Speaker:know whether I started that. Like talking about attacking my freedom of association, right,
Speaker:like because Jay did something, I am involved in it, you know? You're always getting me in
Speaker:trouble, Jay. It's easy to do. Well, let's be clear, like this petition calls on Lucy Watson
Speaker:to be fired. And I 100% stand by the petition. I shared the petition. I signed the petition.
Speaker:I think the names were public. Quite a few people signed that. So I guess beware. They take some
Speaker:offense to folks using their name on a petition that's addressed to them. I don't know. what
Speaker:to do with that. Either way, that's my response to the whole petition thing. I mean, Jay, do
Speaker:you wanna promote the petition? We can always link it in the show notes. I think covering
Speaker:the absurdity of these things is very important because in the letter that you shared, the
Speaker:screenshot that they use as evidence for the petition has the word author and Jay Woodrow.
Speaker:So to ask you if you authored it, well, you provided me evidence that has the author's
Speaker:name. Second of all, why does that petition exist? Because the director or secretary, depending
Speaker:on the province you're in, the national director, the provincial director, provincial secretaries
Speaker:are non-elected, they're non-union, they are employed at the will of the council. So as
Speaker:council members we can vote to remove them. I tried to have a motion added to the agenda
Speaker:of a council meeting that called for a vote to determine if council still wanted the director
Speaker:that we had. So of course the director controlled executive which has secret committees wouldn't
Speaker:acknowledge it. So what I did is I do what any organizer does and I emailed all the executives.
Speaker:So what happened is they got angry that I had found their emails and they launched an investigation
Speaker:because a member contacted the executive to say, stop preventing this motion from being
Speaker:tabled. Look, I have a petition that shows you How many people want this motion tabled? Stop
Speaker:blocking it. It has yet to be tabled, and now they are punishing people for their association,
Speaker:for promoting it or signing it. And here's the thing, they went after you for sharing it before
Speaker:they went after me for authoring it, and for doing the horrible violation of contacting
Speaker:our executive. So. It's also important not just to say, oh, because there was a petition, but
Speaker:why that petition existed in the first place makes this even more absurd because the petition
Speaker:exists for them blocking member rights and you are in violation of something. I mean, even
Speaker:just the notion that a petition is in any way a problem. I mean, the literal name of the
Speaker:party is New Democratic Party. Right? Like. I'm sorry that we're expecting there to be
Speaker:some sort of level of democracy here. A petition is not even a vote. I mean, it's like, it's
Speaker:essentially a strongly worded letter, right? Like, come on. The fact that there can be no
Speaker:possible interpretation where petition is in any way grounds for any sort of investigation
Speaker:to conduct. I mean, come on. The idea of that I take such issue with. It's so ridiculous.
Speaker:If Santiago takes issue with that, I want to get his reaction on how they first came after
Speaker:you for that petition and us, right? Like, I'm always, you're always again, I'm always getting
Speaker:painted with everyone's brush. But they called us anti worker because we were trying to get
Speaker:the most senior fucking management person fired who's not even a member of the union. Somehow
Speaker:they got that union. to come out and issue a letter, like in her defense. I mean, they started
Speaker:going on about some graphic and playing semantics on how we said, you know, can the members fire
Speaker:staff? And they're like, you're anti-worker. And literally, like these are folks with dozens
Speaker:of harassment complaints collectively against them. And we were anti-worker for calling them
Speaker:out. Because this last week, showed that the NDP is particularly pro-worker, right? Because
Speaker:they did so much this past week to support workers, right? Fuck off. Don't even get me started
Speaker:about the ONDP and workers. So I've had, see, here's the thing. That history that I gave
Speaker:you all those times, I was like super public complaining about the party. Well, that made
Speaker:me a little bit of a beacon of sorts, right? Endless people and from MPs, MPPs to grassroots
Speaker:members, to labor relations folks that work with the NTP, I have all their stories. The
Speaker:writing associations, the blocked candidates, the former staffers, the former phone bank
Speaker:workers fired for advocating against ABA therapy. The disabled members that were ambushed inside
Speaker:their own space by an MPP, that was never investigated. I have all of these stories. They are endless.
Speaker:They are in books that I'm surrounded by. Some I can share their names. Some we've shared
Speaker:on episodes. But all of these things build up to this huge case against the party. and the
Speaker:people that run it, and the only thing that they can think to do is to come after me for
Speaker:some strongly worded tweets. I imagine their goal is to remove my membership. Like, I just...
Speaker:I can't really understand their end game. I think that's one thing that also keeps getting
Speaker:me, but... Yeah, with everything that you just said, like... That was actually kind of my
Speaker:first reaction. when I heard about that this morning, I'm like, wow. Really? Jess knows
Speaker:where all the bodies are buried. Do they really wanna provoke her right now? Like, because
Speaker:all of the dirt that you have on them is so exponentially greater than this. Everything
Speaker:that they tried to pin against you. I mean, like the amount of legitimate, actual, like,
Speaker:documented. Issue like proof that you have against them and the audacity here to launch something
Speaker:against you. I mean it It almost seems Uncalculated Jay, well, I have a theory but I also want
Speaker:to point something out that you left out of your story and only lightly touched on I met
Speaker:you because I was on a mission to try and find a way to contact all the writing associations
Speaker:To have open communication So let me get through this before you comment, because this is gonna
Speaker:have like every possible trigger going forward. So we met trying to connect people, connect
Speaker:members. And we did that to try and help coordinate and help boost each other and support each
Speaker:other. And then we started finding members who were sharing issues. And then we were hosting
Speaker:events to teach people how to take part. what to do, how best practices, let's share thoughts
Speaker:and a collective, a collective NDP resource. You horrible person, you. How dare you do this?
Speaker:But at the same time, while the party is sitting there viewing your organizing as horrible and
Speaker:investigating you, you've done nothing but connect people for years within the NDP. And it hasn't
Speaker:been to funnel people out of the NDP, it's how to exist in a safe way, or try to make it safer,
Speaker:and have the party not spend its time investigating members, but doing what you were doing. So
Speaker:I find it unbelievably telling, and again, the validation of them going after you for pointing
Speaker:out exactly what they are proving. And that's the interesting thing is when they lash out,
Speaker:they're actually proving people right when they do. You saw it in the BC leadership stuff,
Speaker:you see it right now, you're pulling out the realities. So to me, I ask, why now? It's a
Speaker:pretty quiet time. Why you? Why because of my petition? Why? would this situation exist?
Speaker:And the only thing I can think of is either they're afraid you're going to run or try to
Speaker:run and they know if they gave you any issues there would be major backlash or two they want
Speaker:to clean the slate before their big PR opportunity of a acclamation of their chosen candidate
Speaker:and any voice that is more influential and can overshadow the party must be removed. So I
Speaker:want to ask you. Why do you think it's now? Why do you think it's these really petty things
Speaker:that when we talk about the petition, one of the issues they have with the petition is it
Speaker:used their name and it used an image that they created for material. So it's not even things
Speaker:you have said, that you have supported something that has images and words. So it's not even
Speaker:a valid thing against you. So why now? and why you? I think part of telling my story at the
Speaker:beginning was to explain why me. I'm not the only person that speaks out against the party,
Speaker:but I do air a lot of that dirty laundry that Santiago talks about. Like I don't just complain
Speaker:about their policies. I'm not belittling the people that do that. That's legitimate, and
Speaker:I do that as well. Most of them suck. And, but I air their dirty laundry legit, you know?
Speaker:I tell people exactly how they are manipulating the system, how their authoritarian control
Speaker:is destroying the party. I name names very specifically. A lot of people are hesitant to do that, so.
Speaker:And like. I think it's connected to the New Demo Chat story that I left out. I think that's
Speaker:a hard story for me to tell. I think I hold a lot of guilt for that work because I pulled
Speaker:a part of people into the party. I encouraged people to stay longer than they should have
Speaker:and they were incredibly hurt as a result. But I... I've been forthcoming on what the experience
Speaker:is, but still, you know, New Demo Chat and why they thought it was a threat is, I think, key
Speaker:to this story as well. Because what I do, sometimes, I don't even know how I do it, but I seem to
Speaker:connect people. And... in this space, in the New Demo Chat space, like Jay said, you know...
Speaker:I was approached by friends that wanted help, boosting other friends, other writing associations,
Speaker:other great people.
Speaker:If you just know like all these EDAs, all these writing associations, they're run by such wonderful
Speaker:people, by such great activists, most of them. Like people like you and I, like doing whatever
Speaker:they can in their spare time to lift the party up because they think it'll change the world.
Speaker:They do. Their hopes are tied up in this party. And we initially just wanted to connect them.
Speaker:We were frustrated. Our Twitter accounts had no followers and we couldn't make news even
Speaker:in our own communities. So we thought we would start to boost everyone's signal. We would
Speaker:teach people how to use Twitter effectively. We would teach them how to run a writing association
Speaker:more effectively, share our knowledge, share our resources, right? Like, so we didn't all
Speaker:have to repeat work. It's very practical at the beginning. But what it was, was also a
Speaker:space for us to connect. and that's dangerous for the party for so many reasons. One, when
Speaker:we get together, we start sharing our stories and then we realize this is not unique and
Speaker:it is widespread, is systemic, and it needs to stop. Right? When it happens to just you
Speaker:isolated, you think it's you. It thinks it's a unique experience. Something you did made
Speaker:you unworthy to be a candidate, right? You actually, but then you hear like, no, they did that to
Speaker:everyone. everyone that was really progressive, everyone like me. And that doesn't sit well
Speaker:with progressives. We get mad, injustices make us mad. That space is full of a lot of neurodiverse,
Speaker:beautiful people too. And we don't stop when something's wrong. And so the space morphed
Speaker:from a place to just connect to a place to really make waves in the party. It's how we mounted
Speaker:my presidential campaign really quickly with people I didn't even hardly know. It is how
Speaker:we pushed for a lot of big changes in the party, how we supported some people that got onto
Speaker:executive that are still trying to do this fight. It was an emotional support system for a lot
Speaker:of people who had such big dreams to do things in the party and were just thrown aside like
Speaker:they will do me. They are also attacked so it's not fair to just say thrown aside because that
Speaker:actually to me lessens what they actually do. They attack you before they try and discard
Speaker:you. and when they run into a powerful force like you, they then attack, and then by then,
Speaker:the whole outcome of all of this stuff is hopefully you just leave. And again, to punish you for
Speaker:spending the last few years connecting people, doing more work than any paid members of that
Speaker:staff, connecting more people, organizing more events, being- force for education and onboarding
Speaker:at a level that the party says they cannot do and that is what you are being attacked for
Speaker:because as a result of doing that like you said you find these issues you find people's personal
Speaker:stories and you don't just ignore them you care this thing is hurting them this person is hurting
Speaker:them and that is what they are actually lashing out at that and they're perceive you to have
Speaker:power and influence and it's because you are doing these horrible things like trying to
Speaker:help people. Like it's very important for me that people understand how many members are
Speaker:not a part of this party anymore who got these letters. And just for clarification because
Speaker:people are gonna come at you, oh it says confidential how dare you. It's
Speaker:person the complaint is about or the investigation is about. So you have every right to make your
Speaker:personal complaint public. But there are people who get these letters, and they'll answer those
Speaker:baiting questions. They will, it doesn't matter how you respond, they've already made the decision.
Speaker:So I want to ask, do you think they have done this? to get this response because they know
Speaker:you're not going to stand for an injustice like this, to get you to go public with all of this,
Speaker:and then try and use that as the final justification to finalize their attack on you. Yeah, I'm
Speaker:certain of that because anybody who knows me had to know 100% that was just a taunt to tell
Speaker:me to keep this confidential because I have never kept anything that they've ever done
Speaker:to me confidential. It is not my style. One cannot campaign on transparency within the
Speaker:party and then try to defend themselves in the dark. They knew I would go public. And yeah,
Speaker:they can use
Speaker:any fucking tweet that they want to kick me out of the party. But I went public so that
Speaker:everybody knows that this will be you next. And it's not like I'm naive either. I've seen
Speaker:a few people tweeting like, oh, I'm glad you've seen the light. Like, please, please go back
Speaker:and listen to some of these podcasts. When I was first approached to do this podcast, I
Speaker:had to think of like, first I was surprised anybody wanted to hear from me. And then my
Speaker:first instinct was, well, what's my purpose now, right? Not in the party. And it was...
Speaker:The design of this show is to draw people out of electoral politics and onto the street.
Speaker:It's not a safe space for leftists. It's not. They will hurt you. They will waste our energy.
Speaker:They are dragging us down. They are trying to deradicalize us, and they're trying to stop
Speaker:us. And it's, they're doing it through this space. And I have been hitting the warning
Speaker:bells for a long time. And I think... This particular attack on me allows me to finally validate
Speaker:all of that to folks in a real succinct way. I do love how they've laid out that letter
Speaker:because it almost goes through all of their lame, tired old tactics one by one. The anti-Semitic
Speaker:smear. They even included a claim that I'm racist because I come after Janelle Brady and Jagmeet
Speaker:Singh. But there is nobody in power who's ever been immune to my criticism, ever. There's
Speaker:been no pattern other than I have consistently gone after those in power and only those in
Speaker:power. Once you will get yourself, you come to the floor, you ask people to elect you to
Speaker:sit on the executive, you are fair game. If you were going to make bad decisions, if you
Speaker:were going to hurt the people around me, you are fair game. Nobody is hiding behind this
Speaker:volunteer bullshit that they try to do because you asked for power and you got it. And now
Speaker:you will face the consequences for it. And the folks often ask me like, why am I so hostile?
Speaker:Like, oh, you know, I cringe at some of your tactics and some of the language that you use
Speaker:is, you know, combative. I know Santiago was arguing with me earlier. He's like, I don't
Speaker:think they're that combative. Like, these are valid critiques. And the ones they've actually
Speaker:used are, really. But sometimes I do get real feisty. But I hope folks understand, when you've
Speaker:heard the amount of stories, and they're not stories, if you have heard that lived experience,
Speaker:from the amount of people that I have sat on calls with to hear them pour their heart out
Speaker:the way that I kind of have tried in this episode. You get really mad. And when you've used every
Speaker:mechanism within the party, within their rule book, and seen them break all those same rules,
Speaker:you would be silly. I wanna use other words, right? Like, you would be really, really silly
Speaker:to try to keep going at it the same way over and over and over again. So yeah, I decided
Speaker:a long time ago. that the way I would interact with this party was front-facing, fully public,
Speaker:fully transparent. And that is just not their style for good reason, right? Because as we
Speaker:see, as more folks start to understand how this power structure works, this thing they've devoted
Speaker:a lot of their free time to, their money to,
Speaker:they're actually contributing to the problem. I want them to realize that at this point.
Speaker:And it took me a long time to get to that point. And I feel like maybe that might sound condescending,
Speaker:but anybody out there working on an NDP campaign, I don't even care if it's a star candidate.
Speaker:I know there's some great ones out there. If you were drawing in donations, you are absolutely
Speaker:supporting the destruction of the left at this point. Like I've laid the groundwork to explain
Speaker:that in episodes far beyond before these attacks on me personally, right? This is just proof
Speaker:that as I air this dirty laundry, their attempts to silence me are increasing. And I think I
Speaker:jumped on here this evening to make sure that everybody knew that I would not be silent about
Speaker:this. And I, Santiago talks about like knowing all the dirt on the party. I mean, the amount
Speaker:of stories I share off camera is sometimes amusing for folks to hear. I know Santiago likes getting
Speaker:caught up. It makes them really angry. Jay wants to write a book. But yeah, more of these stories
Speaker:are definitely gonna come out. If you thought I was going full on before, I was not. Something
Speaker:was stopping me from burning the whole place down, but I don't know, people ask me what
Speaker:I want to come from this. I joke and say you can burn my membership card, but they don't
Speaker:have the right to do that. I don't want to be a member. Like I don't, I've already told them
Speaker:I have no interest. I just don't actually know how to go through the process of like removing
Speaker:my membership. So I'm on the book somewhere because I get their stupid emails. But they
Speaker:can't continue to do this. So there's some folks out there that are still propping up this party.
Speaker:As long as you keep doing that, they will keep doing this. And one day you're going to get
Speaker:sick of it and you're going to try to say something. And they will do this to you. And they will
Speaker:do it to your comrades. They'll do it to your writing associate. And I bet you they already
Speaker:have. They've already probably wronged you in some way if you're anyway involved with the
Speaker:party in a manner that gives any pushback. So if you're just sitting along for the ride and
Speaker:rubber stamping everything, you might not know what I'm talking about. Or maybe you do. Maybe
Speaker:you've been a part of the executive that's put this shit together, right? Because it's drawn
Speaker:from members and I think that's the most maddening part. that you see these folks on social media
Speaker:and they're talking about all the same issues that we're talking about and they seem to want
Speaker:to change the world, but yet they are completely complicit in these abuses against members,
Speaker:in these violations of the constitution, right? A denial of democracy. They 100% see this happening.
Speaker:And I'm not talking about paid staffers either, right? People are in a precarious job situation.
Speaker:I'm not gonna go there. I'm talking about the elected executives. that sit there and witness
Speaker:this and do nothing. So I mean, I don't know what they're all thinking of this right now,
Speaker:but Jay, you're an executive. I mean, did you ever see your role would be to police other
Speaker:members? Like, is that what anybody gets into the shipwreck? I can tell you at the federal
Speaker:level, I did sneak in. I wasn't going to convention until just like minutes before cutoff. So they
Speaker:had no way to prepare for me to be there and run. Just like how you said that your campaign
Speaker:formed on the floor last minute and it did so well. And this is one of the reasons or one
Speaker:of the avenues they can control it is when they know who's running they can figure out oh well
Speaker:let's just do this. Or they don't actually go organize against you but they will supply and
Speaker:support their chosen candidate for those positions such as campaign managers for the role of president
Speaker:such as campaign staff for a candidate for president but I could tell you right now that my first
Speaker:day on the executive our first meeting I fought to have and resign the national director so
Speaker:I think it was made very clear right away I was not a hyper partisan friend of the the
Speaker:orange, the orange crushing force of whoever these people are. And I can tell you, I have
Speaker:existed in every space I can, and I mean every version of the NDP that exists. I have gone
Speaker:to countless meetings, I've gone to writing association meetings, AGMs, I've gone to councils,
Speaker:caucus meetings in every province and territory. And I can tell you the two connective things
Speaker:are... The playbook they use and many of the people are the same people. No matter what
Speaker:province, no matter what level, these people are like a crew of party fixers. The go-to
Speaker:crew. And I want to say that, like you kind of touched on it, but as an executive who is
Speaker:not in favour and hyper-partisan, I am ignored. I've been, I tabled a motion to the executive
Speaker:which was blocked and then voted down saying that it was a matter for the policy committee.
Speaker:The policy committee, which is inactive and I'm an acting co-chair and has now been taken
Speaker:over by the president and the national director, determined that, well no, these policies already
Speaker:exist you're just asking for them to apply to the disabled members. It got recommended to
Speaker:council. But I have to ask the people who rejected it. to add it to the agenda for council, which
Speaker:I'm being ignored. I am stonewalled. I have no real resources to pull from, from the party
Speaker:as an equity committee co-chair, because they don't wanna give me an inch. Anything I do
Speaker:good is actually somehow bad for them, because I'm not a part of that crew. I know more about
Speaker:the deeper workings from former. staff members, from former caucus members, from former presidents
Speaker:and council members and so on who have been put through versions of what they're putting
Speaker:you through. But they are terrified to speak out because I want people to understand the
Speaker:implications of these things aren't this contained NDP game. This stuff can impact people's lives.
Speaker:Because, like you said, they were saying you're anti-worker. Well, unions have many members
Speaker:in the NDP. If they're all working under the impression that you're anti-worker, that hurts
Speaker:your career potential. That hurts your life. This shit isn't partisan games. It can destroy
Speaker:people's lives. So. You talk about the respectability politics, fuck every single one of the people
Speaker:doing this and everyone who allows this to happen, and anyone who is sitting there with a copy
Speaker:of one of these letters in their inbox, I would suggest maybe you consider sharing that so
Speaker:everyone can see the depth to which they will go. But if they ever asked me to spend time
Speaker:working against the members that I have spent... countless hours and so much time, effort, mental
Speaker:and physical, emotional capacity on to help this party, I'd find a way to contact a lawyer.
Speaker:Like that's the thing, I want to ask you this because I kind of went on a rant, but when
Speaker:you know of how many members have been hurt in this way, versus how many members have absolutely
Speaker:treated you like pure garbage because you've called it out, and then you get into between
Speaker:them and it's just you and the party and they're coming at you. I'm sorry you can like edit
Speaker:this out if you don't want to ask but the mental toll not just of this incident, but the totality
Speaker:of everything that you've talked about here. Do you think that will ever heal? Do you think
Speaker:it will ever not creep up on you when an election comes and you want to take part but then this
Speaker:party has hurt you so bad? Like, I don't know how to end that question, sorry. Yeah, well
Speaker:someone asked me today, you know, whether I was involved in the provincial election that
Speaker:just went in Ontario, a real critical one. And I wasn't, not one minute. I wouldn't even retweet
Speaker:folks, except Drew, Drew Compson. Friends asked me to promote his campaign and so I would.
Speaker:But no, I absolutely not in any good conscience, not in any good conscience right now, advocate
Speaker:for any wing of the NDP. No, especially looking to BC, they are not a solution. We need to
Speaker:get into the streets and pressure whoever's in power to do what they need to do the way
Speaker:we should have done with the general strike. And that is the only means, right? Disruption
Speaker:is the only means now, for sure. But anybody who's seen the inside of the NDP has to know
Speaker:that. The mental toll. Ah, shit. That's tricky. I'll tell you, I think a lot of the weight
Speaker:that I carry isn't from... the people who've attacked me. It's actually from my supporters.
Speaker:Because the position I've put myself in for the last few years has to been the front line.
Speaker:And I've acted as a shield in a way. I've taken a lot of hits for doing what I do for criticizing
Speaker:the party and for telling other people's stories. Sometimes I don't give their names, so I...
Speaker:And I've taken a lot of hits. And I seem, like, really strong, I think, because I don't...
Speaker:about my breakdowns on Twitter. But it is hard. You know, it is hard being attacked from the
Speaker:inside, but I think I'm so used to that now. They have gotten me so steeled against that,
Speaker:I'm prepared for them, they don't scare me anymore. But I feel that way of all those stories that
Speaker:I've heard, and that's why I stayed. I needed to fight for them. I needed to get justice
Speaker:for those people, for myself too. I've already been harmed by the party many times. I needed
Speaker:to reclaim the NDP for the left, for the people it was always meant for, the grassroots. And
Speaker:I feel them looking to me, you know? I felt them, their hopes. Like Santiago talked about
Speaker:convention and... before we started recording, and that was hard for me to hear. You know,
Speaker:I don't want to put you on the spot, but Santiago talked about what it felt like when the left
Speaker:kind of came together around that convention. I spent a lot of efforts talking to all the
Speaker:socialist groups, trying to come to an agreement, trying to get them to trust me, to represent
Speaker:them on the floor, so there would be no other competition that we wouldn't divide the left.
Speaker:We did that. We did that. We had one presidential candidate and everyone was working to do that.
Speaker:And I felt that way for a long time. Like I should have done something with it.
Speaker:But at some point I had to cut and run from this party for my own mental health. And they've
Speaker:still come out to find me and to hurt me, even though I tried to distance myself from their
Speaker:spaces so that it wouldn't. so they couldn't get me. And I really feel like, no, check that.
Speaker:I don't feel like I've failed in my mission to unite the left in Canada. I know I don't
Speaker:take this task on myself, but it is my life's goal. It's part of building towards a political
Speaker:revolution. And I believe that I belong in that revolution. But I feel like I just can't find
Speaker:them justice in that party, that those folks are gonna continue to get away with what they
Speaker:do. And I made no real ends, I made no real inroads there. The same people that have hurt
Speaker:us are still in power. They're still using their same old tricks. They're still hurting people,
Speaker:blowing elections, and erasing people and communities. So... That's where the mental toll really comes
Speaker:from, I think. But that's why the show is so great and having comrades like you folks are
Speaker:so great, because it allows us to refocus on what's next, like a new party or grassroots
Speaker:movements that are issue-based, that are more uniting than partisan politics can be. So I
Speaker:draw hope from there and purpose and... You know, I hope, again, like sharing my story
Speaker:here and all the episodes that we've done to just really explain exactly how the NDP works.
Speaker:I can redeem myself in trying to make it so nobody else enters those spaces at least unprepared
Speaker:or unwarned. And those that are in them know that they're not alone in their frustrations
Speaker:and they don't have to stay. I hope that answered your question. I'm going to ask another one,
Speaker:but I'm going to give you the opportunity because I think this might pull on some deep emotion
Speaker:too. What hurts more? The attacks that you're getting from these people or the support you
Speaker:get in the shadows? Yeah, so what Jay's talking about is whenever I feel heat, whenever I'm
Speaker:in the spotlight. I have public support and I have private messages of support. So folks
Speaker:that know what is happening is wrong and they will reach out to make sure I'm doing okay
Speaker:to tell me that this is bullshit, but they don't do it publicly. And quite often it's those
Speaker:closest to power, those with something to lose politically. And Nah, those folks don't hurt
Speaker:me so much. I'm disappointed in them. I guess part of me, maybe it's being neurodivergent
Speaker:or just me, like I remember, I file that away. I know who I can trust to be courageous and
Speaker:who will be looking after themselves ultimately. And so I play accordingly, that's all. But
Speaker:it is incredibly, I know it, It bothers you a lot. It does bother me because we're all
Speaker:supposed to be activists in the NDP, really. Right? That's how I see it. And I don't understand
Speaker:how people can just stop being activists and stop being progressive, just because the people
Speaker:doing the oppressive behavior wear orange. And so, but that completely just shapes what I
Speaker:think of their character, to be honest, because I've seen people risk it all in political spaces,
Speaker:and I've people be seen be complete cowards. So yeah, I guess it takes all stripes, but
Speaker:I get anxious, right? And I shake with rage when I'm attacked, but they actually don't
Speaker:really hurt me so much anymore. Those individuals, the fact that the system seems to kind of be
Speaker:unloading on me, that weighs a lot. We fight on. And, um, yeah, I think obviously I'll probably
Speaker:have more to say on this as we go through, and I don't really know how this is all going to
Speaker:shape up. I mean, in a perfect world, I think I'm owed an apology that I'll never get. A
Speaker:lot of people are owed apologies that they will never get from that party. I would really love
Speaker:if they would stop harassing me. I don't want anything to do with their party. and they have
Speaker:no right to be going through my tweets and trying to call me accountable to my critiques. I owe
Speaker:them nothing, not confidentiality, not support, nothing. So I hope that wasn't too emotional.
Speaker:I think it probably was, but yeah, I just thought it was super important for me, probably for
Speaker:me personally to get this out. It's been therapeutic. to sit with you folks. I know I mostly maybe
Speaker:had my eyes closed and not really looking at you, but I know you two are there. And it makes
Speaker:sharing this a little easier, even though you made me cry, Jay. But, yeah, I hope this does
Speaker:make people feel a little bit uncomfortable and they start to question if they hadn't already.
Speaker:And I wanna thank the people who have supported me. You have no idea what that means when you're
Speaker:under attack. to see folks you've never met vouch for you and defend you. I know it because
Speaker:I've defended every person I've ever met that was wronged. It's just part of what I do. But
Speaker:when people do it for you, it really, it really matters. It really does. Every email I saw
Speaker:that was in support, every tweet that from folks that I know don't agree with me politically
Speaker:all the time, but understand that this is wrong. That really matters. Folks who don't think
Speaker:that their support matters inside the NDP, that their complaint about this wouldn't matter,
Speaker:it matters to me that you spoke up. So I thank you. At the start of this show, it opens with
Speaker:the chance of this is what democracy looks like. And I think I want to add a mention of the
Speaker:fact that what you've endured, what you've gone through, the amount of time, effort, and emotion
Speaker:that you've given countless other people, trying to help them and protect them and fight with
Speaker:them. This is what solidarity looks like should be what your opening is because you are the
Speaker:physical embodiment of solidarity and you've been nothing but attacked for it. I appreciate
Speaker:that, Jay. You know, there's some ways to describe me. that I know are accurate and not very flattering.
Speaker:But having a principled stand and being someone who understands and displays solidarity, I'm
Speaker:glad you feel that way about me. That's important. It's something I want to instill in my children.
Speaker:Santiago, you got to make her cry before we leave or else I'll feel bad. I have so many
Speaker:thoughts right now that it's really difficult for me. work through it all. But right now,
Speaker:the level of anger I feel, and it's a familiar anger, because I haven't been in this long.
Speaker:I'm 23. I haven't been in this fight a long time, but the amount of times I have seen this
Speaker:happen over and over. and over and over again this is
Speaker:It's what they want, they want you to give up, they want you to lose hope and that's what
Speaker:it leads you to a lot is to... To losing hope because you see how difficult it is, you see
Speaker:how it's stacked against you but no, that's not what's gonna happen here. I refuse... To
Speaker:give in to the cynicism and I refuse to stand by and watch this continue to happen to people,
Speaker:to so many good people who all they're trying to do is... is try and fight selflessly to
Speaker:try and make the world a little fucking bit better for other people and to see this happen.
Speaker:And I mean, I feel like, I mean, it wasn't very long ago that we were talking about the injustices
Speaker:that were happening against Anjali's campaign in BCNDP and before that all the injustices
Speaker:that have happened to so many people who have been expelled and who have been prevented from
Speaker:running who, who I mean, it's such a fucking difficult thing to put yourself in that position
Speaker:too. I mean, to expose yourself out there. To expose yourself to the public. It's a very
Speaker:fucking difficult thing to do. And DNDP makes that infinitely more difficult. Because, I
Speaker:mean, you expect when you make those kinds of decisions, you expect it to be, you expect
Speaker:the attacks to come from the other side politically, you know. You expect it to come from the right.
Speaker:You expect to have to fight the right. You expect to have to fight the fucking liberal party.
Speaker:You don't expect. to have to fight with the people who are supposed to be helping you and
Speaker:to be on your side. That's not what anybody expects going into this. And it's not fair.
Speaker:It's not fair. It shouldn't be this fucking hard. So, I mean, I beg people to please don't
Speaker:put yourself through that. Not in this space, not in the NDP. They don't fucking deserve
Speaker:your compassion. They don't deserve... Your kindness, your dedication, your selflessness,
Speaker:they don't deserve that. And you don't deserve going through that. That's a message for everybody.
Speaker:And there are ways outside of it to do it. And there'll be so much more to come about that.
Speaker:And we're gonna be here talking about that and exploring those options and finding ways because
Speaker:the fight is anything but fucking over. We're not rolling over. We're not lying down. We're
Speaker:not going away. But it's not here. It's not in the NDP. And there's no doubt about that.
Speaker:I mean, look what they did to win, Charlie, right? Like, there's no doubt. that they will
Speaker:do anything and everything to stop you. Nah, it's over in the NDP, but it's not over. I
Speaker:don't know. No, it's Bart. No, please, my thoughts are a mess. I have no idea what I'm even saying
Speaker:anymore. No, I'm smiling because, you know, when we're talking about what did they think
Speaker:they were starting with me, you know, but maybe they don't realize the fire they started in
Speaker:Santiago.
Speaker:Santiago, I think, because not that he needed it, but been re-radicalized against partisan
Speaker:politics as a result. It's actually... a bright spot for me, not only because it reaffirms
Speaker:what I know about you as you are a good comrade and you have stood by me more than once, but
Speaker:that hopefully this has this impact on other people, that it's not a matter of losing hope
Speaker:because perhaps the one avenue they had chosen to spend their time in to change the world
Speaker:has betrayed them. you know, they are disillusioned, properly disillusioned with it, but that they
Speaker:find their fight back and will understand how much more effective and free they are when
Speaker:they don't have to worry about a party monitoring their Twitter account amongst many other things.
Speaker:So, I'm glad to see you frazzled-dazzled, you know? That means you're mad, and I think most
Speaker:people should be mad. And I've gone through a whole range of emotions, I think, just here
Speaker:in this episode, but all day long. And I really hope this is the last time that I have to face
Speaker:this kind of trash from that party, because I am done. I feel like, do you end there? Like,
Speaker:it seemed kind of negative, but. It's allowed to be negative. May I say something that I
Speaker:don't know if I tagged you in these emails and I'm going to brace you because this is going
Speaker:to be a horrible way for me to end my part in this but I recently sent an email to a large
Speaker:amount of MPs, MLAs, MPPs, executives, staffers and directors talking about how I reached a
Speaker:certain milestone in this party that not only exemplifies the true repercussions of the way
Speaker:things are done, but the human toll this takes. I have had a total of 40 members who I have
Speaker:either had their final communication telling me there's no hope, or family members when
Speaker:I reach out to see if they're okay because they were... really excited to be at that next committee
Speaker:meeting or that next event I was hosting. And they weren't there. And then I have that conversation
Speaker:with a family member telling me that the last hope they felt they had was in this party.
Speaker:And there are members who don't care too much about the party because that's what the party
Speaker:does to people. But the community... the family that you build within the party, some of these
Speaker:amazing members like you two, not that you're necessarily members, but the connections you
Speaker:make to leave that, to be forced out of that, is where a lot of these emails stem from. And
Speaker:I sit at meetings and events and council and convention. and I don't see their Zoom box.
Speaker:And I know where their voice would be. I know what things they would be talking about and
Speaker:fighting for. And I know what things led them to not be there. And I've met so many people
Speaker:who say, well, that's just politics. And this is people's lives. It's their mental health.
Speaker:It's their physical health. It's their lives. And I want people to understand that that.
Speaker:is what the NDP says it stands for. That's what you as members say you are doing all of this
Speaker:work for. But look what you're allowing to happen internally and it is finally brought out into
Speaker:the public by just making this move to pull transparency from the shadow. I think some
Speaker:folks still truly believe that party, internal party matters belong behind closed doors, that
Speaker:the media will always. attack us, grab these stories and use them against us, and that means
Speaker:we're propping up the PCs or the liberals or whoever we're focused on at the time. The truth
Speaker:is the media will always print garbage stories about us, they're owned by capital, that's
Speaker:their job. So I don't know, I think that's just like, hopefully falling a little bit more flat
Speaker:with folks now. because we've seen the only time the party has ever moved on anything is
Speaker:when public complaints were made, when public noise was made. Nothing has ever really been
Speaker:accomplished in the private, behind closed doors, in personal emails back and forth within the
Speaker:party. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining
Speaker:us. Also a very big thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Helu Quintero. Blueprints
Speaker:of Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively. You can follow us on Twitter
Speaker:at BPofDisruption. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the status quo, please
Speaker:share our content and if you have the means, consider becoming a patron. Not only does our
Speaker:support come from the progressive community, so does our content. So reach out to us and
Speaker:let us know what or who we should be amplifying. So until next time, keep disrupting.
