·      Doula skills and backup support during the holiday season. 0:08

o  Ravae Sinclair and Denise Both share what's in their cups during a podcast episode.

o  Doulas seek backup support during holiday season and beyond.

·      Doula backup and communication. 3:43

o  Doula discusses importance of having a backup doula for support during birth.

o  Doula shares experiences with clients and other doulas, emphasizing importance of clear communication and contracts.

·      Backup doulas and their importance in childbirth. 7:19

o  Backup doula should vet clients and lawyers, develop go-twos for support.

o  Ravae & Denise discuss strategies for finding backup doulas and reducing anxiety for clients.

o  Offer virtual doula services if there are limited in-person matches for a family's preferences.

o  Establish a backup doula contract with a written agreement to avoid confusion and ensure fair compensation.

·      Backup doulas for birth workers during pandemic. 13:43

o  Ravae & Denise discuss importance of having a backup doula for client support and self-care.

o  Ravae suggests adapting to pandemic by disclosing limited experience, undergirding with backup support.

·      Ethics in doula work and backup doulas. 16:51

o  Denise discovers $1,000 discrepancy in payment for supporting client through prodromal labor.

o  Denise supports client through multiple prodromal births, totaling 3-4 days.

o  Ravae warns against overextending oneself as a doula, risking burnout and compromising quality of care.

o  Denise highlights the importance of backup support and fair compensation for doulas, citing a specific example of a Black doula taking advantage of a less experienced doula.

·      Doula backup support during long labors. 22:33

o  Denise discusses managing long labors without a backup doula, and the potential use of an honorarium for backup support.

o  Ravae discusses her use of backup doulas for support during long labor.

·      Race and representation in birth work organizations. 26:07

o  Ravae highlights the trend of white-led organizations using BIPOC faces without proper representation or credit.

o  Ravae notices a trend of Black faces in corporate messaging and podcasting, while Denise shares their experiences as a Black person in the US, highlighting the exhaustion of constantly advocating for equity and inclusion.

o  Denise’s podcast on Lamaze and Bradley methods was popular, but they stepped back due to lack of diversity in the organization and its teaching materials.

o  Denise criticizes Lamaze for not doing enough for Black birth workers, including revoking certifications of some test takers.

·      Image usage and ownership in a nonprofit organization. 32:51

o  Ravae Sinclair discusses her experience with DONA International, including being dismissed from the board with no explanation and her image still being used without permission.

o  Ravae shares her experience of being the first Black president of the organization in its history, and the ongoing issue of image usage without permission.

·      Image rights and usage for birth workers. 35:05

o  Ravae & Denise discuss barriers to certification for Black birth workers, with one speaker criticizing low standards for these professionals.

o  Ravae emphasizes the importance of controlling one's image and likeness, especially when collaborating with others for business purposes.

o  Ravae shares a personal experience of dealing with the misuse of an image by an organization, highlighting the need for agreements to manage future usage.

·      Race, leadership, and the future of black birth workers. 39:47

o  Denise Bolds shares their experience of shutting down a podcast due to a falling out with a co-host, highlighting the importance of aligning with the right people.

o  Denise and Ravae discuss trends in the birth world, including the challenge of controlling one's image and aligning with organizations that align with their values.

·      GoFundMe campaigns and personal finances. 42:34

o  Ravae expresses frustration with GoFundMe campaigns for personal expenses, such as a van or moving costs, and feels that it's inappropriate to ask for money without proper justification.

o  Denise shares their own experience with GoFundMe campaigns and acknowledges that it can be a generational difference in how people approach financial support.

o  Denise shares their experience as a doula and how they raised money for their business by selling personal belongings and hosting a yard sale.

o  Ravae and Denise discuss the shift towards relying more on online platforms like GoFundMe for fundraising, rather than traditional methods like hosting events or selling items.

·      Financial support and generational differences. 47:48

o  Ravae recognizes increased demand for doula services due to financial uncertainty and seeks to address it through teaching a class.

o  Ravae & Denise discuss differences in generational attitudes towards gratitude and connection in giving and receiving.

·      Financial management and self-improvement for birth workers. 51:18

o  Denise Bolds shares personal experiences of financial struggles as a single mom, highlighting the need for support and resources.

o  Ravae observes that there is a lack of posts seeking financial knowledge or support, and suggests a paradigm shift towards equal exchange.

o  Denise shares their personal experience as a black single mom and how they overcame financial struggles through sacrifice and leverage.

o  Denise references Alex Hammadi, a successful YouTuber and entrepreneur, as an example of how making sacrifices can lead to financial success.

o  Successful entrepreneurs share their financial management strategies and the sacrifices they made to reach their goals.

·      Financial literacy and relationships with money among birth workers. 58:07

o  Denise Bolds reflects on generational differences in approach to birth work, highlighting the need for managing expectations and different perspectives.

o  Denise emphasizes the importance of having a positive relationship with money, cultivating it, and respecting it.

o  Ravae Sinclair agrees and acknowledges that the question of one's relationship with money is important, but admits they still don't have a clear answer themselves.

·      Infant loss awareness and healing for birth workers. 1:01:41

o  Doula overcomes loss to welcome new baby, finding hope and healing through her experience.

o  Denise Bolds shares personal experience with miscarriage and stillbirth to emphasize importance of support for families and birth workers.

o  Doula work involves more than just physical support, including emotional and spiritual care for families.

__________________________

Links to Resources:

Birth Worker Contract Templates: www.natlbirthpostpartumpros.com/shop

Alex Hammadi, Diary of a CEO (YouTube): @TheDiaryOfACEO

Doula That! Podcast- doulathatpodcast@gmail.com and doulathatpodcast.com

Birth Worker Business Booster course

Black Birth Worker Wellness Collective on Facebook

Sweet Sleep Junebug

------------------------------------------------

How to find us:

Ravae Sinclair @birthconnections and natlbirthpostpartumpros

Denise Bolds @BoldDoula and @blackwomendovbac

Website: www.doulathatpodcast.com

IG:@doulathatpodcast

Platforms: Apple, Spotify, Stitcher & Google

Okay, hello, everybody. We're back. I'm Ravae Sinclair.

Hi, I'm Denise Bolds. Let's Doula That!

Yeah, we're here to Doula That! with you. All right. Okay. So, I will probably come up with another question. Not today, but another time, but my question for you is what's in your cup?

What's in my cup right now? I'm just drinking something really dull. It's just some electrolyte water with alkaline water. It's just what I need right now. So I have to stay hydrated. It's That's it right now. It's pretty boring.

Okay, I love it. I mean, you're being healthy. Okay, so I just a continuation. So this is peach tea. But it's those non sugar version. Okay. Okay. So slightly healthier. You know, I gotta get the sugars under control.

What else is in there?

Okay, I use the the ending of the, you know, the crown. Apple Crown Royal. Okay. From before, but I filled it up with sugar free. I'm working on it. I'm working on it y'all got to get it together over here. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's what's in my cup.

Oh, right.

A little I got a little flavor in it. All right. Okay, so everybody. So we're coming to you, and we're doing this episode. And I just want to fully acknowledge that, while we are talking about some lighthearted things, and things that people might not feel are like super important or life changing. We are also exercising our privilege to do this, while the rest of the world is in a war. Right. So I know that there, there's work that we're doing. And there's hurting also happening. So I just wanted to take a minute to acknowledge that there is a lot of pain happening in the birthing space or in the mothering and children's space because of what's happening over in the Middle East. So I just want to take a moment to acknowledge we're not ignoring that. I think that as birth workers, we have to be pretty resilient, in the face of like, the realities of how life and death are so closely intertwined. And so we hope that that there's a resolution soon and that people get a balm for their, for their pain.

Absolutely.

I just wanted to acknowledge that. All right, so we're gonna start our episode with talking about a doula skill. I mean, you're here for a reason. And we're Douling That!, and so what do you want to "doula" today, Denise?

Well, you know, we hear it all the time. You know, we see it a lot, too. It's like, Hey, can anybody back me up? I need a backup person. I need a backup doula. I need it now. Because somebody helped me.

In a Facebook group!

In a Facebook group. Um, it's really, you know, finding that good mesh of a person, whether it be in your mentoring group that you're in, or your local doula community, but, boy, that's been the common all through the summer, people were looking for backups, people want vacation, or whatever. It's been, it's been a major topic here.

Okay. And yes, I think this is such a good topic to talk about, because we're going into the holiday season. Oh, yeah. People are going to be with family with friends. Also, the rise of the flu or COVID, or whatnot, people might get sick. And so having a backup is super critical. I feel like I see these messages in Facebook groups, even in like birth worker chat groups. And I don't know about you, I think it's, I mean, I have I think I have to two sets of thinking on this. I think it's weird to have somebody who you don't know showing up for a family. And so some there's like one part of me that when I see these messages, I'm like, oh, except I know, I'm an amazing doula. And I'm trustworthy and I'm heavily skilled. So I feel like oh, okay, I could go help that family. I have every confidence in me. But I don't know how the doula has any confidence in me because they generally sometimes like they don't know me. And so yeah, even to see it. It's even more so to see it in a Facebook group, where you're like, there's hundreds of doulas in here who like and I don't know, maybe the doulas after they do the requests and people respond. Maybe they vet the doula. I don't know. Maybe the family has I don't know how this all happens. But I was trained to when you you know, sign up with a family that you already had a working relationship with a backup doula or a set of doulas so that you could tap into that known group of people whenever you needed them, so I don't know, I don't know, how did you get trained on like backup doula or support?

You know, I got trained the same way that you really should have a rapport with that person. And you know, the doula should really be able to vouch for them and know them. However, you know, I did do a relocation from one place to the next. So that kind of changed my community there for a while. And, you know, in order to get my foot in the door, I had to start out by being the filler, you know, I had to put myself out there and say, Hey, I'm available. If anybody needs to back up if anybody needs some holiday coverage. I'm here in New York City because I was upstate New York for you know, that's where I began my Doula practice. So I did that. And in doing that, I got some really good hits. I got my foot in the door. doulas got to know me. They're like, Oh my God. Denise is amazing that my clients raved about her. She was reliable. She was on time. She showed up. She was professional. She did everything she said she would do. She accepted the the agreed fee. Everything was great. Then there were a couple of other doulas where my practice was different than theirs. And they want somebody to be there from the jump of labor. And that's not how I practice. So they were calling me even though I was the I was the backup doula there. This doula who I was backing up was calling me and, you know, checking in and micromanaging and getting unnecessary anxiety, because I wasn't there. And it's like, well, she's not an active labor. Um, I'm not going to be there yet. Plain and simple. Now, when I went back to the hospital, the mom was in active labor. She was a very precipitous brother. And I was there for the birth. I was there and the doctor wasn't there. I caught the baby. So you know, doulas, you know, it's really something when they don't understand what your practice is. So I think that communication is really important. How do you practice what show them your contract? You know, I'm showing up at active labor. I'm not there for a tuck in. I'm not there to labor with you at home and early labor. I'm not going to be there at home watching TV with you and walking around the block with you. That's something your partner's is trained, hopefully to do. So yeah. It's definitely a two way street on that one.

Yeah, I think it's tricky to put a call out into the vortex and like, and to get a reply back and then to accept, I think there's some things to consider that if this is your strategy, that you need to have a reliable vetting process. And hopefully you do this call out with enough time for you to vet, to call, to interview to you know, and, you know, I've definitely done this, I've responded, Because yeah, I was off. And I was like, why not? I can make a little extra money, I can do this. But I do expect people to call me get to know me, or maybe I call the family. And I basically do an interview, I let them know what my credentials are and let them know they can go to my website, how to get to know me what, what I expected versus what they expect. So we don't have a miscommunication. Like what you had Denise so that everybody knows, Hey, I am skilled. But I may operate a little bit differently than your doula. Now. I think on your end, as the person who's coming in as the backup, I think you should look to see the lawyer in me says look at the contract that the client has with the doula because that contract and that relationship ship has set up certain expectations that when you're coming in as the backup you are expected to fulfill. So although you and your practice Denise, she might not come to them until to a family until they're an active labor. This other doula they may have already promised the family to have support in early labor. And so that's one of the ways as a backup doula, you even decide if this is even a relationship that you want to say yes to. So I think everybody has to do their due diligence and vetting. But I also feel like if you do this once or twice, one of the things you may want to do is develop a group of people who are become your go-tos as a backup doula. So you're not constantly shouting out into this vortex, but that you start to create a little small group, maybe a group chat, or a collective like an informal collective of doulas who work in the same area who kind of have the same workstyle or skill set, and you kind of attract the same kind of clients because you want to make sure that there's a good match there that you can call on when you get hired, you know, for when you get hired by a family. So that right away you can mat have a backup already built into the contract, so you don't have to do these call outs. I think some of this is just really about getting seasoned and becoming more familiar with the doulas in your community.

Yeah, I don't do backups anymore for you know, on the on the general, there are about four or five doulas that I will have that I backup for. And I have one person who backs me up here. And that's it. Um, I just I just did that in the beginning to get my feet wet and to get in the door and a new good way

it that's a really good way to be known to make money to get connected. It's really great idea. Yeah,

yeah. But otherwise now, no, I don't back up. There's very few times that I thankfully that I even need that situation. But yeah, it is definitely a strategy. I don't think it's fair to the family that you don't have somebody that could you know, you could get into a car accident on the way to the birth, you can get COVID There could be a family emergency, there could be so many things that come up, and to relieve that families anxiety, you really should have something solid in place.

I 100% agree. Now let's think about the ways. So there's like it's not always that smooth for a lot of doulas, especially if you live in a place where there not a lot of doulas, right. Okay, so if you live in a place where there are not a lot of doulas or doulas, who have your similar credentials or level of experience, for whatever reason, if they're just there not a lot of matches for you that your families would feel comfortable with, then I would recommend you consider does the family feel comfortable with virtual as of right, and so if that if that is the case, you need to offer that to them, talk through that with them, train them on what to expect out of a virtual dueling experience, prepare them, you would have to do like a comfort measures session at Tech, a tech session so that they can get you know, be ready. And that does open up the pool of people who could be your backup. I think some another barrier that people consider when like not quite properly setting up a backup is the backup doula fee. Sometimes people just don't want to come up off the money. And it does cut into your profit and like how do you set that up? So shameless plug on my website, RavaeSinclair.com shop, I have a backup doula contract like a set of an agreement where you can I think there's two different ways that you can set up a agreement, maybe there's a flat fee, or there's an hourly rate up to a certain, like capped amount. There's a couple of ways that you can do this. But you should absolutely have a contract with a backup doula so that people know when not should I be on call for you? When am I expected to join the family? How much will I get paid? Make sure that this is not just a verbal agreement, make sure this is a written agreement and signed, and so that all parties are aware. But I just recognized that the finances may keep you from wanting to engage someone in a in a backup doula situation, I would encourage you to just have somebody on call like a little bit like, they don't have to be on call like formally, but have somebody waiting in the wings? Let somebody know. Hey, are you available in December? Yeah. So it's like, okay, I may need to engage you as a backup doula, because I have a you know, just let them know that that's possible so that you have something to go on. And so that you're not totally failing the family, if you don't use them, and you don't use them. Some people will pay someone just to be considered. Maybe you pay them a $25 or $50 like sitting or, you know, hanging in the in the wings fee. And then other people pay a flat fee or pay an hourly rate or whatever. But you got to think through that. I just think that it's a responsible it's responsible to the family because most people's contracts say they'll have a backup doula. I also think it's compassionate to you. Like I think be kind to yourself, no, don't stress yourself out trying to be a five different births, and having all that pressure to perform, when you really could have the relief knowing that hey, if this family goes while I'm in this other birth, I have a backup. So I think that that that's a way to actually take care of yourself as a birth worker so as to not wear out your nervous system. I think I think there are some some ways that you can think about having a backup doula that can be really really useful. And not only to the family but to yourself.

Now there is a paradigm there's some other sides to the coin here in this discussion. And one of them is to make sure that your backup doula is pretty comparable to the skill set that your your client originally hired you for. Okay, so for me, I have doulas that are I know can back me up that have the same level if not more experienced than I have at this point. So I'm not bringing in a doula who's only been a doula for two years. I've got somebody who is at least to double digit years of being a doula to be my backup person.

I think that's important.

That's very, very important. Now the other thing that's happening out here for our new and younger doulas, I am going to spill the tea here.

Oh, wait before you spill the tea, just on that one thought. I think that makes sense. As somebody who has like commiserate experience if it's possible. Sometimes all you got is a doula who got trained in during the pandemic, two years experience, mostly in virtual, maybe that's all you got, then you find a way to fill the gap. So for me if that's all I had, first of all, would disclose that to the family. Second, I would let them know hey, as much as I can be, I'm going to be on texting with that doula supporting them or I have another doula if I'm totally out of pocket. I have another season doula who will be engaging with them, helping them give you suggestions and ideas, I would undergird that with as much experience as possible, so that they can have confidence that the main thing is that someone present is some someone who is present with them for the birth, and then try to support or supplant the the maybe the lack of experience in other ways to help soften the blow, so to speak,

very true. Very, very true. Very, very true. Because sometimes we don't know things do happen. We this pandemic has done a pivot for everyone. So what we were considering that we can rely on has changed. So we have to change with it. So I totally agree with you on that. But um, one of the things that I noticed is happening here in New York, New Jersey, is that we have seasoned doulas who will go out and land the contract, then they will hire less experienced doulas to be their backup. Pay them a quarter of what they were initially paid on that contract. And send that doula in for less money. And they pocket the difference.

Oh, honey, Oh, you are spilling the tea. Wow. I did not know that.

There you go. So when I say this, because it happened to me. And I will I will give you an example. I went ahead and I supported a doula. And she gave me a price. She says okay, this is what they paid me. I said, Okay, no problem. I accept. I accept your, you know, X number of dollars. And I go in, and I support this family who had very prodromal labor. So I went to the home supported them. The labor went down, I left to go get some rest. They rested. The labor pick back up. I came back. This happened from Monday through Sunday, excuse me from Friday through Sunday. Okay, the whole weekend, I was back and forth. So talk brings about talk, no problem. The client says to me, oh, yeah, you know, doula-so-n-so was great. She did this with us. She did that and we paid her X amount of dollars. And I'm saying to myself, that's about $1,000 difference than what I was paid. So this person tried to pocket $1,000. So I kept my cool. And I supported the birth she had an amazing vaginal birth, all of her goals were hit. She was very pleased with the support she received and in her prodromal labor, and I went home, I got some rest. And then I got on the phone to that doula that asked me to be her backup. And I told her I know exactly what you were paid. And if you don't give me the difference of that money that I earned and that prodromal labor of three days going back and forth with that client it's going to be on and poppin Oh, no, she was like oh, are you threatening me said no, this is not a threat. This is a promise. I was working with this family for three days and that prodromal labor back and forth and you try to cut me out of the money and pocket money that you didn't earn you weren't at the birth I was and I was there on my feet back and forth for three days hip squeezes and all that stuff sleeping in my car all kinds of stuff and and you're black and I'm black and here you are trying to undermine me and keep some of the money so she ended up paying me and I'm sure to this day she's got nothing but negative things to say behind my back and that's okay. But please be upright if I'm if you're if you're gonna be my backup I'm gonna hand you the money you earn

exactly. I have questions because I'm like so a backup doula feels very much to me like it's necessary for immediate like, I'm in another birth. So I can't go to this one or I'm sick for a day or so. So I can't go to this one. So this went on for three four days. Was this really a like an immediate knee backup doula need like, what was up? Was she out of town like what? Yeah, she

was she was at another prodromal birth, it was one of those, if the planets could collide at this one moment, they would. It was one prodromal birth after the next after the next after the next and she was going from one to the next not resting because this one finally gave birth after three days, then another one started up then another one. And she was like, you know, she was going on sleep deprivation for like five days at that point. So she needed she really did need help.

Okay, I get it. And some of this is also speaking to you overextending yourself too many clients being you know, whatever I know what you're doing, could be greedy could be just not as organized, not as prepared to take on all the clients that you're taking, like stacking all those families so close and we know that you could have four weeks apart and the due date and they'd be trying to you know, those babies try to come on the same day. I know that happens. But that is fairly rare. So some of this is also speaking to mismanagement of your doula practice having too many people and honestly not having a solid backup system like this is a person if you're going to take on clients like this you need to be in a collective you need to be in an agency you need to be in a group or backup is built in for every client so that everybody gets what they need. And you as a doula also still have some work life balance. You know, sleeplessness, that's like being high like that is super dangerous.

You're going to make mistakes, you're going to fall you're going to be driving, you're going to be doing all kinds of things and it really puts you and yourself, you and other people at risk. It's very dangerous. Yeah.

And for all your effort of wanting trying to be there for the family, you're gonna drop balls, and oftentimes they're still you were there at a sacrifice in a struggle, and they're not happy they still won't be happy at the end because you're not fully present for that family.

Exactly. Exactly. They will not feel like you've given them your all and truthfully you weren't because you did not get enough rest. But you know, there is a doula out here she is she's a black doula and she is known for taking the money getting backup doula of a of a newer, less experienced doula paying them, not even half of what she got in the contract. They go to support the birth and she pockets The difference now, prenatal visits, childbirth education is no way that can come out to 14 $1,600. No.

Well,I had no idea okay. Now we would be remiss if we don't talk about the use of a backup doula when you're in a very long labor. So that's the other way that backup doulas they don't necessarily come in right at the beginning but they you might introduce a backup doula once you have hit a threshold, and so your contract actually should speak to that you should have a sense parents should be able to expect Hey, after she's been with me for 20 hours. I think for me it's 24 hours which I'm definitely no good after that. That they that the family can expect a backup doula to be introduced into the equation. I don't know how do you do it Denise because I know you're a solo practitioner. So what do you have How do you manage the long labors without actually normally having a backup doula?

Um, you know, there's been only a very I haven't used the backup doula since 2018 When my mom passed away, so I've been very fortunate in the way that I've staggered my clients and the way the Lord has put put it out there for me, I may have left one birth and have a change of clothes in my car and got the call I have to go right to the next hospital and go or so there was a little bit of a gap that I could still get to. But so far it's been okay so I haven't really had to engage in a backup doula now since 2018. But if I did have to engage in one, then I would definitely have that person on call before we go in. I would give them an an honorarium, a fee for even agreeing to be my backup. And then I would give them the I would just hand them over the money that I took for that birth, maybe I take off one or $200 for my prenatals but they get they get 90% of the cash that I would not keep that money like that.

Yeah, and I would say very similar. I generally cannot sleep with other people, even if I'm delirious when my clients are in labor. So generally what I do if I had a backup doula, and it was just purely fatigue, I would go away for enough time for me to get home, get showered, eat, sleep for a few hours, get like get refreshed and come back. Because sometimes these long labor they're long right so that I wouldn't just keep my backup if I have rested and I've eaten, and let's say four or five, let's say five hours has gone by. And I like been able to get a little bit of a nap and get some food and everything. I'm Probably going back. So and relieving that backup doula, because you know, when we get in the groove with a family, we want to see the baby we want to see thwe baby....., so usually I try to get myself back over there and rejoin the family as fast as possible. So

yeah, that's definitely it.

Well, hopefully this has been helpful in terms of like doula skills, just really exploring the topic or the idea of a backup doula in ways that you might have not considered using one or getting prepared to use one. There's lots of options now that we have the virtual support, use your contracts to set expectations. If your contract says one thing, and then you find that you need to do something else, you can amend your contract with what we call an addendum, which is just writing a new clause, whatever that subject is that you're dealing with, and just attaching it to the original contract, as long as you in the family sign it, you can just make another agreement for you, so

yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well..

Backups. Good luck. Okay. All right. So... popular culture. So scrolling on good old Facebook, I have seen a trend. And we've talked about a little bit about this before recording, Denise, about looking at why organizations in this post George-trend, like everybody was so into di and doing their work. And when you know, we watch a black man be killed on TV over and over and over again. Everybody was so ready to do DEIB work, right? And then it just, I don't know, somehow 2021 came and it was over. By the end of 2021 people were done with doing their work very externally. We were you know, I was teaching classes like unpacking white supremacy, people were gung ho everybody was had a book club, reading and exploring their racism. And then it just fizzled. And so I feel like paying attention to birth organizations and what they're saying and doing. I think it's interesting to see the trend of white LED organizations using BIPOC folks' faces on the front of things like I don't know, say their podcast, when they

I know where you're going with this, Oh my God!

Listen!, You spilled the tea. I get to spill the tea, I mean. But put using our faces when we're long gone from the organization, when we left on bad terms when you we left because you're not actually doing DEIB work. But you want to look like you're doing DEIB work. I mean, this is what's happening in the birth world. And it's really kind of sickening. Yeah, I mean, because people don't necessarily know, like, if you're not part of the inner circle, a lot of these organizations, you don't actually know, the controversy, the drama, you don't know. I don't know. I feel like it's just kind of like how corporate organizations picked up and all of a sudden, you know, they had Black faces, sharing their messages, and they never before had Black faces showing their you know, sharing their message. So anyway, it's a trend. I want to, you know, do you want to talk about do you want to weigh in? Because it's just, you know, something I hadn't noticed? Yeah, had to, like, do that. Like, cuz we're on I'm told, and I was using your face, I'm told you about three times, they still using your face?

You told me you told me and you know, this goes back to where, you know, it's, it's a lot to be a black person in this country. And it's not a fad. And it's not, it's not. It's not done by uh... penetration by having a Black partner, or Black children. This is a real thing. It's exhausting being Black, to teach everyone all the time to be on guard all the time to advocate all the time with the inequities that just come one after the next after the next. And so when I took on, I was one of the first podcasters of color that was a that was actually selected by Lamaze International to do their podcasting. And they did this in the pandemic because I thought it'd be a great idea and it is. And so I did the podcast and I had some amazing topics on topics that parents really want to hear. They were on the pulse of things. They were provocative, they're me, that's who I am. And then Lamaze went ahead and they saw what I was doing, and they decide how to stifle me how to control me was to have a committee review my podcasts before they would approve them for publication. And so after that, I said no, you know, you hired me my podcast a very respectable. I think my podcast, the one podcast that gave them the highest ratings was what's the difference between Bradley and Lamaze and the one guests that I had on as an expert, Bradley instructor, a highly decorated Black birth worker who brought up the history that at one time, Bradley and Lamaze were actually together, working collaboratively. So she gave some wonderful background history. And you know, these organizations decide to schism themselves for whatever their personal reasons are, but the history was wonderful. And it was one of the top podcast at the time. No problem, I decided to step back because I felt that the white podcasters were not censored, and then all of a sudden, I was, so I left and I have not been a podcaster on Lamaze now in two years, something like that. But here it is. If you look on Lamaze's webpage, and you see the podcast banner, my face is still up there. And it really does promote the abuse, as well as the misrepresentation of Black people in birth work. Okay. Lamaze is a white run organization. Lamaze does not have a lot of diversity in their teaching materials. They have blond haired blue eyed babies on their material. I took their Lamaze training my Lamaze trainer had blond haired blue eyed babies all over the training. There's no diversity for either, you know, bipoc LGBTQI plus nothing like that. So Lamaze has not done very much for Black birth workers. As far as I'm concerned. I took their test. And they told me that the 110 or so I got a 97 or 98. And they told me I needed 110 To pass, I was done. So there there was that, not to mention, I heard that, you know, other Black Lamaze test takers passed the test, received their notification, and then they were told it was a mistake. And they they revoked their certification. And this was under the current at the time, a Black Lamaze president. So to me, Lamaze has not done very well, when it comes to Black birth workers who've done a lot of harm. I will say that, so my podcast time was over. And I felt that you know, at that point, when I resigned, they should have just basically taken down the banner and start all over with a fresh new banner, they have not done that yet. And you know, it is a sign of laziness. It is a sign of indifference. And it is a sign saying that it's okay to misrepresent. When it comes to Black and Brown birth work, it's it's totally okay to put something fictitious up there. And Denise Bolds as in podcast with us over two years, so why the hell is her face still on our stuff?

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's, it's a sense of entitlement like well, at the time that you took the picture, and that in at some point, you gave permission for your image to be used, because it was accurate, it was an accurate depiction of your affiliation Association connection with the organization. These are not stock photos. So you can do these images the same way and when you when there is a dismissal or disconnect and it is on bad terms, one of the things that we have to be very mindful of is the use of our work product our image and our likeness. And so you know, when all that went down with DONA, I sent an email like take my picture down, do not use any of my stuff. Now I did come across my image still being used on the board of directors website and you know, they'll get a cease and desist very soon. Because you don't have permission. Don't act like we are a happy--- like you're recruiting board members. Don't act like we're happy ---- you literally dismissed me from the board with no explanation still, to this day. I had not done anything wrong. I was operating under a contract that you agreed to that you did not pay me out for. So you still owe me money. And you're out of order. And you want to still use my image to recruit people to a lie?!?! Oh, no, you're not gonna use me. So yep. Just like I was reminding you about them using your image, girl, I had to do my own search and I'm like, Oh, let me do my own work.

To this day DONA still uses my images on the website and everything else.

It's been two years cease and desist is coming.

We've been the two only Black presidents of the organization in the history of DONA. Both of us were fired for some bogus ass reason.

Oh, wait, wait, wait, oh, you ain't gonna acknowledge the---- you ain't gonna acknowledge the backstabber?

acknowledge who?

You said we were--- We were the only two?

We were the only two elected Black Presidents of DONA International,

okay. elected. Okay. That's better.

You better, you better, Counselor you better you better retract that statement counselor.

No, you retract----no facts. We were elected, elected. And I was elected twice.

Okay. I was elected. I went through the nomination process. I went through the vetting process, the Black president that they had up in there did none of that. She went in through the back door.

....and the current president didn't either. And the incoming President didn't get elected either. So Oh, but okay, we're not gonna tell that.

Okay. They didn't do that. We did the right thing the right way. The Black the third Black president they had it's not even certified in childbirth Ed, but she's a doula trainer.

Oh, ooh.

Okay. So let's talk about how low the bar is when it comes to Black birth workers. Okay, you and I are up here getting our certifications, doing our continuing education units, making sure that we are coming correct every time.

Okay, but it you know, for some people, I guess that doesn't matter. Some people don't have to meet the standard. And

I guess not, but you know, if you want to, if you want to be, you know, whatever up there doing being a clown, then that's a whole nother story. Okay. That's, yeah, that's it for me. Yeah. So, so yeah. So you know, we have to understand that with these organizations. Um, it's, it's, that's, that's, that's a low bar, attitude to have. It really truly is. Yeah, and it's up there. And it that should make everything okay.

Right. And I think my point is that if it's a real live person who was no longer associated, affiliated connected with your organization, this is not a stock photo, this I'm not a model. Like, I think that if you are a birth worker who is experiencing this, then you really need to take control of your image, and maybe even out the gate really control whether how your work product, your image, your voice, any anything that's affiliated with you is used, think about how it's used now, while you're connected. And when you get disconnected. Think about that ahead of time, because we all know, our reputation matters. Our image matters, how we're used matters. And yes, I you know, and Denise, you know, that there was that whole incident with another black birth worker years ago, when I was leading a white LED organization and an image of her and her child ended up on the on the cover of the magazine. And there was extreme upset. And unfortunately, I was at the helm. So I had to deal with the complaint. And also the, the untruth that that was propagated from her. But I understand the sentiment having, you know, experiencing it, experiencing it myself, but I understand the sentiment. But in even in that situation, she did not handle the legal stuff. That image was released by the organization that she was representing, she did a legal photo release. She probably never imagined where that photo whose hands that photo would end up in, which happened to be the organization I was leading who she had no alignment with. And I can understand her hurt like especially now being on the receiving end of it now, but this again, is about mismanaging your image or likeness in your usage, you just signed away because she did because she trusted the organization never imagining that they would then third party those those rights of those images to another organization who had no idea about her personal affinity or dislike. And so I'm just I think the lawyer in me is definitely like, hey, y'all, really when you're collaborating with people going on podcast doing all this stuff, because that's what we're doing to grow our business. Really think twice about how your image is being used and make sure you manage future usage through agreements. So that when you need to move on, because people betray you, because organizations change course because you are no longer aligned or something happens that you can disconnect and they don't retain rights to your images that you find very harmful.

Absolutely. And I do practice exactly what I preach here because I had a podcast many years ago that was very successful. And this third Black president that brought herself in through backstabbing and stuff left with this white LED organization was one of my co hosts. And when we had this falling out, I shut down that podcast and I closed it. I closed it off. It's gone. It's done. There's no There's no trying to salvage it. There's no trying to piece thing Nope, just decimated. Let's just start all over again in a new and a new light. And with new people. That's all because I don't want to associate with this person. And I'm not going to. So you know that I just shut that off. So you got to practice what you preach. Yeah, and sometimes you take an "L" for sure. And it's really tough. Because y'all had some good content, there was some really great conversations that took place. But that was a day and a time. Yeah. it was a time we struck while the iron was hot. We helped a lot of people, we had a lot of great guests, a lot of great leaders in birth work on, I'm really proud to say that some of the episodes that I did do without this person, you know, Claudia, the late Claudia Booker, that one is still alive and going. And she gave a beautiful podcast with me and talked a lot about her history and growing up and becoming a midwife and her father, who was a pediatrician, it was a beautiful podcast. So we really need to understand who we are aligned with and how the bar for Black birth is so low. And it still is even in Black in certain Black leadership. And I'm using my fingers and quotes. The bar is still very low. Because when you and I were leading this white LED organization, we did have a very strong Black agenda to uplift Black birth workers. And this organization was not ready for that period.

Oh, no, I mean, I'm 100% positive, that is exactly why they got rid of us. Alright, so not giving too much shine to to to those kinds of things will keep it moving. All right. So I just wanted to bring that up to make sure people had a sense of like, Hey, I'm doing all these things. Let me make sure I control the product, control my image and make sure that like if things break bad, you can reel that stuff back in and you're not continuously being aligned with the organization that you're actually misaligned with. All right. Okay, so trends. Now this is this might go on for a little bit. So let's buckle in. Okay, so So, okay, so you know, we talked about this one of my challenges that I see trending right now, in the birth world are posts about what do we call it? Because I you know, I have a like a funny feeling about it. For Okay, so GoFundMes, Cash App, asking for handouts, people. So I mean, we had one birth worker put up a picture of a small like a minivan because they have a bigger family. And it was a van that they were manifesting and just point blank, asked people to donate money so that they could get a van for their for personal use for their family. Just straight up ask people for money for transportation. Someone else had done a post asking for money to move. I was just having a hard time in this city needed a change, or I don't know, I can't remember. Do you? I don't know if you remember, I feel like there was DV involved domestic violence involved---NO there wasn't,---there wasn't okay. But it was just needing a change to move. And that person through that GoFundMe raised, like 30, grand, or 40 grand, like, it was a lot of money. And it was like shocking to me, because I'm like, Oh, I saw the posts. And I'm like, oh, people just asking for money. And then people gave it, you know, even there's been some recent posts wanting to like pay their light bill or buy photos for their child, their school photos.

raising because I'm pregnant with the set of twins.

Okay, you know, the twin one really got me because it was sort of like, I'm a childbirth educator. And if I've ever taught you anything, I'm have we're having twins and consider donating, right? Giving money in support of this twin pregnancy. And you know, that one stood out because I'm like, I'm just gonna give you money. Like, if you taught me something before, if I sign up for a class, you taught me we had that even exchange. And so you just want me to give you money. And it's like, kinda, it feels like it's happening so often, it feels like it's just a way that people can do, like, just ask for money. And um, you know, I think there's a one conversation we're not going to have today about like finances and birth workers like there's, there's clearly a struggle, and you know, the nature of the work can definitely lend itself to the struggle. I don't want to speak to that today. But I just I don't know. It's a generational thing. The thing like people putting cash app at this number First day in cash at me, it feels weird to me and I don't actually have a word for it. But I personally am like, No, ma'am. No, sir. Just because you have a life thing going on, I'm not just giving you money.

You know, it's a generational thing for me, I'm a little older. And, you know, Um, I just don't do that. And, and even when I started out as a doula, um, I wanted to do this, I just left corporate America, I had a lawsuit for discrimination at the time. So my life was totally in a huge change. And so when I took this doula training, um, I went ahead and I just pulled my furniture out on my lawn, I had a yard sale, I just sold off my stuff, I cut off my cable TV, I made sacrifices, personal sacrifices, in order to get where I need to go. I'm the first person I'm going to sell off some pocketbook, some shoes, some clothes, some furniture here in my house, I'm going to liquidate my, my my my stuff, to the best that I can to get ahead on what I need to do. And that's how I became a Doula I just raised that money, I had a yard sale, I pulled all my stuff out of my garage and, and my basement rabbit and sold it and we were done. Fast forward to 2018. When my mom passed away, I did not put up a GoFundMe, I went ahead and I put everything I was I was the sole one, I took care of all of her burial stuff, and I put it on a credit card and paid it off. And I went on about my business. Because that's what I do. Now. I'm not one I'm not opposed. People want to do what they want to do. But I think there should be a boundary on on on your giving, and you're asking for giving, you know, there should be some type of an exchange. Or if you're going to ask, then you ask a select group of intimate people that you know, personally, hey, I'm going through a rough time, would you be able to help me out? Um, but to make this like a general social norm, is something that I just I just don't agree with

I,yeah. And I it's not even that I don't, I just don't get it like I definitely. Okay, so as we were coming up, we didn't have GoFundMe, right. Like there was no such thing of that. Like we

had rent parties we had we had you had to buy a plate, buy a plate of dinner, we

sold dinners! Exactly. But a lot of it was like, I'm going to give you something like I wouldn't just ask you for money, I'm going to do something I'm going to put on a concert, I'm going to do something for you and to raise the money. We were enterprising. And that way, I do think it's generational. And with the technology, people can just ask, I just I've seen it happen more frequently. And maybe it makes sense. Because we're in a pandemic, and we're coming out of a pandemic. There's some you know, we've got inflation, we've got like, I think maybe we're going into a recession. Like there's a lot happening financially. Even just it could be local to certain areas, like in the Washington DC area, whenever there's a the threat of a government shutdown, which we just avoided. But we're kind of walking right into it again, here in another month. Government workers don't spend money. They have regular income, they have steady income. But when they know that check might not be coming. They're probably not hiring doulas there, you know. And so that does impact birth workers income. And so I realized that maybe the more frequent requests are because of all the things that are happening. I also think that it's because some of us don't know how to, like do the business in a way that allows us to have consistent steady income. I definitely think we should do an episode about that. But it's just something trending it as a saw, and it just annoys me. So especially with a twin thing, I was like, listen, here's another way to do this. How about you? Because twin knowledge is really hard to come by? How about you teach a class your childbirth educator, right? How about you teach a class, I pay for it, I get some knowledge and some skills, you get the money, you can do whatever you want with it, you want to put it towards your twins, whatever. Like to me that made more sense. Probably it just would have sat better with me. And yeah, I don't know. I just think it we're seeing I think this is one of the places where we see the different generations operate really differently is sometimes there's a collide,

Millennials are very okay with this. And what they don't understand is that ask and that money just coming in, and you don't see that person put that money in your hand or put that money in a card. It there's not a there's not a personal connection there. So it makes it very easy to ask for the second and third time. Because if I just put it out there, the money is going to show up. There's no connection there. So you really don't understand where that is money is coming from it's just showing up for you. And that that is a really, that's a loss of connection. That's sad.

Yeah. But to you know, we talk about business. And we talk about the exchange, how that exchange can be really powerful, and create community and connection. And we've experienced people who have had a need and are in our small private group. And we've helped that family and never got an acknowledgement -a Thank you. In fact, I remember, we did this for someone, and I have some of the group members say, Hey, did she ever get it? Did they ever get it because I'm not sure that if it got delivered, I didn't get confirmation. Didn't get confirmation from the, from the transportation company, but also like Amazon, but also didn't get confirmation from the person. And I think that is generational- I think, Long gone are the days of like, thank you notes, like just acknowledging people, and just helping people know that the loop was closed. So it makes it difficult to then give again,

it really does.

It's like the first time I didn't even get an acknowledgement, at least give me a thank you.

And, you know, I'm speaking from not from a place of entitlement or privilege. I am a Black woman who is a single mom of a Black son. And I and I was a single mom, you know, from 1990, when he was born. So I've went through the ranks, I know what it's like to have your lights turned off. I know what it's like to have your car repossessed, I know what it's like to be evicted. I know all those things. So when I tell you that I can hustle, and I can sell to this day I sold off 10 years ago, I sold off gold jewelry, and whatever I need to get my business up off the ground, I made those personal sacrifices, my son was off to college, I cut off cable TV, I didn't have cable TV for years, because that was an expense that I did away with to help my son get through school. So you know, talking about what we're, I think what Ravae and I are saying here is there has to be some sacrifices. And in today's technology, when you can put an Ask up on an internet and put your put your name and stuff up in there. And the money just comes in, that that connection is not there. And it's it's such a different paradigm that we're in now. Because that connection is just not there. It's a whole different whole different thing out here. Now. It really,

it really is different and energetically, it feels different. And so it's one thing if you're having a rent party, it's like I know you need to raise rent. Sure, I have a good time, I don't have any problem helping people, right. But that even exchange is helpful. The other thing I think is just another approach could be, hey, I'm having a hard time managing as a birth worker, is there anyone who does financial support any ideas? Like I rarely see posts about like, does anybody know about any grant scholarships, banking institutions that are favorable to a self employed worker to get a line of credit? Does anybody have skills around budgeting, or financial management, or even personally, just saying, is anybody in a position where maybe you can give me a loan? Like, I don't ever see those kinds of posts, where people are looking to further like their knowledge or get, like get the to gain for themselves so that they don't find themselves in this position again. So anyway, I just think it's just interesting. It's just an observation just I think it is a generational thing. I also think that the missing part for me is not setting up a paradigm where there can be an equal exchange. And then I also don't see self improvement or, or those vulnerable posts who say, Hey, can somebody help me?

Yeah, that discipline, you know, that sacrifice, I have helped people without going through first of all, I don't like to go through those venues to help you because GoFundMe takes a cut of my money that I'm trying to help you with. So I'm not going to do that. I have called the person and said, Hey, can I have a private conversation with you? Can I help you this way and offer them help directly, instead of just going through the venue that everybody else is going through? You know, last summer we had a doula who was in crisis, I jumped on the phone and I gave her my pitch Hey, sell off some of your stuff in your in your garage. Cut down certain luxuries that you have in your house like cable or something, you know, give up the Starbucks, give up the tips, the nails, the eyelashes, whatever you need to do for now until you guys can get yourself up and running. I've done those things because I live that life for a while so I can say that because that was my experience. So I'm not coming from a place of judgment when I say to people Well honey, you need to look at your your your bills and cut back on some things because until you get on your feet or or you can pivot and get some more I'm leverage once again, leverage on how you can sell yourself, and also #2 really watching how other people who are very successful did it. I'm an addict, I'm a complete ly addicted to YouTube's Alex Hammadi. He's one of the most richest men under 40 in the world. And he came from a very tumultuous background as a man of color. He's bipoc. And he talks about, hey, this is what you need to do. And I posted one of his posts on my Facebook page where he told this young black dude, you want to pick yourself up and do better, you gotta cut out the fancy clothes, the news, the new sneakers to Starbucks, you got to make the sacrifices until you can get the momentum and the leverage up where you need to go. So that's what I'm referring to. Because he's like, Alex is like me. I had I had a hard way to go being a black single mom. So I'm talking because I lived that life. And I can say those things. People see me now as a doula thinking, Oh, my gosh, these are so great. You have no idea what I went through to get here.

No, they don't. And just because I look like I've arrived, doesn't mean I have, right, like I think just because peep, some people are just holding it together. But I think finding yourself in financial management classes, like thinking through like listening, so that YouTube series is Diary of a CEO, the CEO,

yes. it's fantastic, just to listen to very successful people. And their journey towards success is very, and I

think having business coaches follow, there's so many, there's so many people on YouTube, and Instagram, who you can follow, who are really talking to you about marketing, strategy, finances, financial management. And here's the other thing, the reality is, while you may want to do birth work full time, you just might not be able to write, right, you actually might need to keep a nine to five or a nine to four or, or a seven to two, like you might have to keep, find a way for steady income, because many of us know that birth work, work, you almost have to piece it together to have steady income, not always, but generally a birth here and there doesn't actually keep keep the lights on. And so find ---the until you can get other skills and find other ways and market yourself to make steady income 100% From birth work like like Denise and I have done, you may have to have a part time gig or a steady full time gig and do this on the side until you hit that tipping point where you can do it full time. So

it's been a lot of lean times -there's been years that I did not get a vacation, I did not have the the vacation. Um, you know, there was a lot of sacrifices I made. But at the same time, you know, you have to stay in faith, you have to surrender to a higher power, you have to understand that, you know, you have to press forward and keep working. And it's really a generational thing for me. I'm an I'm a child of the 60s. And it's a whole different mindset for us than it is for the younger generations that I'm seeing. And I'm working with.

Yeah, yeah. I'm always reminded that even though like I'm in a place of somewhat privilege, and have figured out how to do birth work full time, I still need a reminder. So on the back of my necklace, I have the reminder, I have everything I need. That's what it says on the back of my Yes, yes. So I made I have everything I want or how I want it. But I have everything that I need. And so this work is ministry, for me, it is faith work for me. And so there are lean times, and they're like, you know, feasting times of it. So it's kind of how it goes. So I think managing expectations for this role as a birth worker is important too. But using our community, to just get handouts--it's just so interesting to me. And if you have a different take on this, like I realize some of it, we're both kind of saying the same thing in terms of like generational feedback. But if you have a different take on this and you want to come on to the podcast, live to talk about it. If you're one of these people who really see the value and the benefit of a GoFundMe. We'll put our email in the show notes, reach out to us, reach out to us we would love to have you on because maybe there's another perspective that we that we could see, and that you can share with us. I'm open to that.

I'm open to it, too. But, I definitely but I do feel and what I've learned through many mentors, I've had over the years, money is an energy and it is to be exchanged. It is an energy that you cultivate. It is not something that you just sit back put out there that I want this money because I'm this or that and that comes to you and there's no reciprocity in that. Money is an energy and how you cultivate that. And it always leads me to one of my mentors always taught us at the beginning of our time together she is what is your relationship with money. And that is just such a huge thing. So I know in the future in 2024, Ravae is going to have this really kick ass financial literacy course for birth workers. And I'm so looking forward to that. Because what is your relationship with money? I respect money. Money is an energy and I respect that energy. I don't abuse it. And as Ravae said, I have everything that I need. I want a lot of things. When I when I go out and buy something I say to myself, Do I really need this right now? Or is it something that I just want?

Yeah. Because y'all don't know this. I I have lots of conversations with Denise while she's in the aisle of Marshalls or TJ Maxx, and she finds fabulous things. I love it. But yes, the relationship with money is important. And I remember the first time I heard that question, somebody asked me that question. A couple times in a row, I did not have an answer. Right? It was not even something I had ever, like considered. I had no answer. If you asked me that. Now, I still don't know what my answer is. But I'm working on the feeling. I am, I have a better feeling about it. I don't know that I can articulate my relationship with money. I think it's still a little foggy. But Denise is also right. I'm gonna be doing a class and of course on supporting birth workers. So I'm not just out here criticizing, I'm not. I'm bringing this up as a trend, because I'm like, I feel like this is a need and that it's something that people can really benefit from. So yeah. Stay tuned. 2024 We'll get some help out here. Okay. All right. So let's wrap up. We're in the good birth worker news. So I want to say like, we're we want to acknowledge that October is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month. Yes. Alongside also Breast Cancer Awareness Month, it's a it's a month of a lot of important causes. And so we do want to remember and acknowledge that not every pregnancy is related is in a live and vibrant and healthy birth, that there are losses along the way. And so in terms of birth worker, good news on this topic, I wanted to highlight a doula who has been a part of a birth worker group, The Black Birth Worker Wellness Collective for a number of years and amazing birth worker, who unfortunately had a loss last year had a birth live birth. And baby was in the NICU care for a very long time, and was went home to be cared for and then passed away. We got news, just like a day or two ago, that she had another baby. She had a rainbow baby and had an looks like birth was in the month of October. And so I cannot describe how excited I was when I saw the family photos, to see the family of five. And that's what she mentioned. And we're a family of five again, and how amazing that was to see her be restored in some way and come full circle and move through her loss experience with her family together intact and moving forward. So I just see her her story as her life experience as, as a really great example of how you can move forward and move through loss. That child is now--her angel baby is still with them- and in lots of ways, and they moved on to have another baby here on Earth. So I'm super excited. If she's listening. She knows who she is. Congratulations, we are so happy for you and your family, on your new addition to your family. So congratulations.

To God be the glory, for sure! To God be the glory. Yeah, you know, this is this is something that birth workers need to understand. Not every mom goes home with the baby. This does not always happen and you know, took me close to over 100 births before I had my first stillbirth that I supported. . And it was with the Black family and it was very close to me because this was a second baby I was going to be supporting them with and that baby did not survive. And it was a very tough time and to learn as a doula how to support families, as well as support yourself through something like that is is a learning curve. Indeed. So, you know, October is, you know, loss of perineal last month Awareness Month is very important that we support our families through these times. It's also very important that birth workers themselves heal through their own losses. You know, I've had multiple miscarriages that I don't, you know, talk about first time really talked about in here. But I went through my healing journey with therapist and all kinds of stuff over the years and got myself together. So when I support families now, I do not come forward, my support comes forward. So I'm really, really pleased when I see doulas really jump into the other side of this because all they see is Denise is holding these sweet babies. That's really great. But there's another side to this. So Dr. BrandyNicole is just amazing. I just love her. She's an amazing social worker, and she is one of the Board of Directors members for Sweet Sleep Junebug pregnancy and infant loss support. She herself sustained infant loss with her own baby. And she's decided to jump into an organization that's going to help support other families. And to really move that work forward to bring about education awareness. I just went to their gala here earlier this month, was it no last month, -last month in September, and I had a wonderful time. They had great food and celebration, they acknowledged the babies who did not make it here earthside, they had wonderful education tools to hand out that we could all just bring back to the community and disseminate as a way of empowerment to keep that conversation going. So I'm really, really proud of Dr. BrandyNicole and her family and friends that invited me to this event I was able to go. And it really was very special. And I was really honored to be there. So this is the work that doulas do. We're just not there holding and kissing babies. There's a whole other side of doula work that you don't see. And those doulas who are really experienced and cool, they really don't let you see that. Because that's sometimes can be very, very private, very, very personal. But it's still very much there. So kudos to Dr. BrandyNicole. I'm a big fan girl fan of hers love her to death, and her wonderful family and friends. We had a great time. And thank you Sweet Sleep Junebug for doing this very, very much needed and much important work.

Yeah, I mean, you know, the reality is a lot of us are in birth work because of our experiences. Some people have experienced losses and so have gone into the work with it with the heart to soften the blow for other families and to help prevent loss in other families. And so yeah, kudos and hats off to those who have experienced losses continue to do their own work and show up for others. It's really, really a beautiful way that we take care of one another. So all right, well, that's that's what we got for today more for next week. But thank you all we hope that you will write us reach out if you have ideas, topics, you want us to cover questions you want to ask, we might invite you onto the show live and be with us. So be ready for that. But thank you all we hope that this is helpful and we'll see you next time.

Take care, everyone! Make sure you Doula That!