Made with minimal equipment and rooted in the idea that ideas need time to grow, this bonus crossover episode between Notes From an Aspiring Humanitarian (NAH) and Social Justice Origin Stories revisits Relando's very first recording from 10 years ago with special guest l o t i walker, a social worker, social justice advocate, artist, and photographer.

l o t i shares why she chose social work, the challenges of working within under-resourced systems, the importance of cultural humility, and building trust through client-centered practice.

She also explores art as self-care, describes her “funky production” approach to problem-solving, and speaks on the power of storytelling and naming our experiences for ourselves.

Companion Episodes:

Ideas Need Time To Grow: How Starting My First Podcast Led Me To Social Justice Origin Stories

Making Race Heard with Surabhi Pandit

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Social Justice Origin Stories is produced, edited, and hosted by Relando Thompkins-Jones.

00:00 Bonus Episode Setup

02:25 DIY First Recording

03:16 Why Storytelling Matters

04:09 Podcast Launch Intro

06:30 Why Social Work

11:08 Art as Self Care

13:46 Funding and Advocacy

15:44 School Based Social Work

19:06 Race and Cultural Humility

24:17 Pencil Poem Reality Check

27:43 Funky Production Mindset

31:03 Proud Moments at School

33:41 Earning Trust

35:09 Client Centered Practice

39:12 Mentors Who Shaped Me

42:25 Keep Learning Stay Humble

45:20 Cultural Share Activity

48:03 Mementos And Meaning

55:53 Advice For Future Social Workers

01:00:29 Closing Thanks And Next Steps

01:02:38 Listener Outro And Support

So I'm back again with another crossover episode of Notes from an Aspiring Humanitarian and Social Justice Origin Stories.

In a previous episode, I did a little bit of storytelling that really got at how Notes from an Aspiring Humanitarian was in many ways an earlier version of what Social Justice Origin Stories is Today.

I'm continuing in that theme of Ideas need time to Grow and that it's okay that ideas change and grow and morph over time, and it's all right to be okay with that.

One of the ways that I'm doing that is I'm realizing when I was just doing some digging and reaching back into the archives, I'm sharing an episode with you today that is actually the very first episode that I ever recorded. So I'm sharing the very first episode that I ever recorded through Notes from an Aspiring Humanitarian. But if you listen to this.

And as I listened to it again, as I was preparing to release this episode, I found some similarities between the questions that I was asking and how I do things today. I'm realizing as I pull this up here, this episode is actually 10 years old.

So when I say that there were a lot of starts and stops on the way to really getting some traction with Social justice origin stories and implementing on it in the ways that I am doing now, I really mean that.

I talked about in my storytelling, even when I did need to take pauses, leaving voice notes, writing things down on pad and paper, even if I wasn't at a place where I was able to fully implement on it yet. It's like finding a way to store those ideas and get those ideas out so I could revisit them when the timing was better.

And again, it's okay if things change and grow over time.

This idea of starting with what you have, in some ways, this idea of starting before you're officially ready for me, I feel like this is a way of battling that you consider this a bonus episode continuing down that theme of Ideas need time to Grow. It was an audio recorded episode with a good friend of mine, Lottie Walker, fellow social worker. So just one of those things.

Start with what you have, wherever you are. As I share this episode, I'm just very appreciative. One, I'm really appreciative of Lottie Walker sharing time and storytelling with me.

And then also as I listen to it, I can realize in myself I'm still figuring my way through. I was figuring my way through at the time and I'm still doing that today. I don't even think I had a.

Microphone at the time.

I don't think I had a microphone in the way that I do now here for this particular setup, but I think I had some kind of portable recording device when we did this interview. And I had this flip phone or did I have my computer? It might have even been my computer. Yeah, that's what it was. I had this flip phone.

I believe I called Lottie. I think it was a phone call. So I think I called Lottie and put Lottie on speakerphone.

So I'm talking through the speakers for the computer, Lottie's voices coming through from the speakerphone or the flip phone. And the recording software there is just picking it all up. Very first episode, just using what we had. So, you know, it doesn't have to be fancy.

Make it exist first and implement on it later. And I'll just say it again. Ideas need time to grow.

You know, as I listen to this original episode, I can see some of the changes, right? But the through line is the storytelling. The through line is the storytelling and the power of that.

This interview is 10 years old, but that power still shines.

Really comes down to the power of storytelling and sharing our stories and naming our experiences for ourselves as opposed to having someone else do it. We talked about social work, race, class, art education, self care, a lot of different things.

I'm including it in social justice origin stories because that was the kind of storytelling that was happening, that Lottie was. Sharing questions that I was asking.

And so check out this first episode of Notes from an Aspiring humanitarian and in some ways, social justice origin stories between myself and my good friend l o t i walker.

All right, this is the notes from an aspiring humanitarian podcast. This is actually the first podcast in what I hope will be a long run. That's been something that's been coming on for at least four years.

It's going to be my fifth year of writing at nah. And so this is a really big step in a process that I hope will continue.

So I'm not quite sure of what this will turn into, but I'm hoping that it will be something beneficial for you to listen. Listen to.

Sometimes I'm going to be saying what's on my mind or maybe talking about different topics that are related to social issues, social justice issues. But I also have special guests as well. So to kick off my very first podcast, I invited a really good friend of mine, Lottie Walker.

Friend, who in a lot of ways, feels like family. We're going to talk about some things related to social work, related to social justice, and we'll Kind of see where this goes.

I don't quite have a title yet for the segment, but I. The thing that's been resonating in my head at this point is this, the word voices.

There's a real strong interest in highlighting stories and having folks tell their stories.

So in this segment, I'm going to be highlighting people from a variety of backgrounds who are seeking to impact the lives of others in a positive way through truth telling. Truth telling. That's the honest sharing of their own experiences.

They're going to teach us a little bit about themselves, and hopefully it will enable us to be able to learn a little bit about ourselves through their stories. All right, so I welcome Lottie Walker, social worker, social justice advocate. Welcome, Ladi.

Right now, after hearing that introduction, I'm beaming that I could be a part of it.

Okay.

I'm honored. And you've made that statement. You don't know what it's going to turn into. I. I know that it's going to turn into greatness.

I don't think that there are very many resources like this out there. So I think it's awesome. And thank you.

So you're out there. You've been with me from the beginning. I appreciate it. If this is your first time coming to. Nah. Welcome.

And so now we're going to get into the interview with Lottie Walker. All right. Okay. So our first question. Our first question is just to ask you what brought you to the field of social work?

I think for me, I feel like I was always that person that had done social work without the degree, without the formal education, but always playing a role in the communities that I serve. I primarily work with young people, their families.

It's always being there in some way or another, either through art education, providing resources, or lifting ear or something to that degree. And I think for me, what brought me to social work was wanting to be a player at the table.

Because I think in this society, when it comes to doing community level work, often when you're in a position, at the time, I was a program director for a nonprofit, but I didn't have a degree.

And I was often going to meetings with people and people always challenging that and that the fact that I didn't have a formal education always came up for me. And so I made the decision to go get that. To be a player at the table in a different kind of way and always wanting to support and serve people.

That's kind of how I got started.

Okay, so you wanted to be a player at the table to Have a.

Voice at the table without being challenged in certain ways, because I didn't have a formal education while still doing the things that I had always done, which was, yeah, provide support and kind of push back up against the system in a lot of ways.

So there are some other areas out there. There's psychology, there's counseling, There are other helping professions that you possibly could have chose.

What is it about social work, you think, that led you to continue to pursue that for education as well as a career?

You know, Relando, I think that social work is a combination of all of those things. To be truthfully honest, I feel social work employs psychology. It employs sociology, amongst a lot of other things.

I think it's definitely a combination of those things. And so I've been, you know, doing social work professionally for quite some time.

I sometimes come home from my job and I ask myself the same question, like, what is it that keeps me doing what I do and the environments that I do it in, what keeps me coming back?

Because for me, where I am right now, and I think maybe for a lot of social workers, where we're making a connection with human beings and attempting to support individuals who have challenges on their plate, circumstances may not be ideal.

At the same time, supporting those individuals within a system that is often broken might be resources and funding, and you may work on a team, and that team may approach this work very differently than you do. That's hard. It's a challenge. So sometimes I come home from my job and I ask myself the same question. What keeps me doing this?

Number one, to be truthfully honest, outside of my love for art and photography and those types of things, social work is kind of all. I know what I know. I think that it's what my passion is.

I think the individuals that I connect with, the young people that I serve, being a part of those communities and watching, oh, it's like this phenomenal thing.

Working with young people amazes me because they go through so much, and when they think that they have nothing else to give or that they're not going to make it, they run straight through the fire and come out on the other side. And so to be a part of that, that's what kind of keeps me coming back. That's kind of what I have to focus on, every member and embrace.

I think social work is definitely social work on some level or another, is without a doubt my calling. Without a doubt?

Without a doubt a call.

I think I can admit that.

Okay, all right. I hear you when you say, you know, you don't know what else you would do. It's a way of life.

It's like a way of thinking and acting and it's just so much. It's just so much. So you also mentioned art and photography. Correct.

So if you're out there and you're listening, if you check out rolandotomkosjones.com and hit my Mission and Focus page and my Vision and Values page, Lottie actually took the headshots for a couple of the photos that are there. She's an excellent photographer and a great artist. So we're gonna get back to social work, but could you just tell me a little bit?

Because I know you really love that work too. So could you just tell me a little bit about how you got involved with that and what it means to.

You with photography, with art? Yeah, so I. With a photographer for a while. I went to art school. That's actually my background.

I freelanced for a while and I matured individuals and we'd grown together creatively.

And it was when I had the opportunity to work with young people through the power of art, which led me to also believe that photography is also a part of my calling. Like using that art right now, Rolando, for me is a saving grace.

Because I think when you are in a field where you may witness and go on this journey with someone through a lot of hardship, self care is extremely important. And so photography and art for me is a part of self care.

I don't care if I have a camera in my head and I'm playing the role of the photographer or if I'm going to a mixed day or supporting someone else through their creative process. Like, that's a part of self care for me. So. Yeah. And I still. Yeah, I still embrace it. Definitely.

Yeah. I can still remember I thought I was cute. Yeah.

I mean, it's real. It's real.

I can still remember when we were out there in Ypsilanti taking those photos. Yep. On the corner, out there taking those photos. And you had the camera, you had the. See, I'm starting to get into it now a little bit at the tripod.

You even had the lighting kit. The lighting kit, Right. You were making it work. You were making it work. So I'm trying to tell you all folks, Lottie is a professional. A professional.

I just really wanted to talk about that just a little bit more because I know how. How important it is to you now. So. So that's good.

That was a good time. That's a good time.

That was a really Good time? Yeah. Yeah, that was a really good time. All right, we're transitioning a little bit back into social work here.

What do you see or what do you think are some of the top issues that social workers face today in relation to social justice? Like what are some of the big things that we need to be talking about or that we're challenged with for you?

For me, I think about becoming involved in electing who is making decisions the way that impacts social work, be it funding. I think for me, that's a big challenge right now is working with the agency we're funding. And I think it's par for the course. Right.

Especially if we're doing social work that's connected to like the nonprofit arena.

Like, that's funding is always like on the wheel, but becoming more involved in knowing who city electives are and officials and, you know, who's making those decisions and becoming involved with having a say that's real. And I think that I say that too because it's hit close to home for me because I've lost, you know, work because my program lost funding.

I'm a part of an agency where they receive a lot of funding through the Big Brother, excuse me, my Brother's Keeper initiative. But the work I do is female centered and so there's no attention being placed on that. So, you know what I mean?

I think there's something that kind of trickles down through that initiative, but not in a way that is sustainable. And so I think for me, what the big things are is kind of making room to address those things.

As a social service provider, know who's making those decisions, having a voice, voting when it's time to vote, protesting when it's time to protest, upright when it's time to uprise, kind of being that squeaky, squeaky will and organizing and mobilizing and. Yeah. Connecting to different agencies too, within the community that are also focusing on those things too.

Okay, so off air, we were talking a little bit about some of the work that you do. Well, you know, in social work, there's not really such thing as a typical day, but a little bit of how a day in the life could be.

Look, I haven't had a typical day since I grabbed that diploma when I walked across the stage. In the professional arena, there is no such thing as a typical day in social work especially.

So I do school based work, especially if you're within a school system that also has challenges and we have good days, we have bad days. You know, I. I like to approach things from strength based lens all the time. But those bad days, yeah, they can be a doozy.

So I work for a high school with specifically the girls, helping them basically through their day, but also providing therapy, vocational emotional challenges during school and out of school, connecting with them and their families and kind of helping them to make some move, to invest in their education, to be present and helping them kind of like tap into a lot of those skills that they may not know that they even have. So, yeah, I do group counseling, individual counseling. Yeah. And I, I love it. I love it that it can be a challenge.

You said helping them, you know, tap into some skills that they might not have even known that they had themselves. Wow, that's, that's a really powerful, really powerful statement.

And one of those things, just the basics like how to love yourself, how to see yourself acknowledge your strengths, how to be still, how to communicate, how to cry when you're at the stand, like those things, you know what I mean? Like even on that level, as well as just how to make room for yourself as a young. And I primarily work with all girls who are all black.

I work in an all black school. And so, you know, we tap into that black girl magic, right?

Yeah.

You know, they may not have resources at home once they leave that campus.

You know, I would like that we together kind of help them kind of pave the way to come back the next day, regardless of what their situation is, to come back stronger. So I love it.

Yeah. Loving yourself and loving themselves is a really revolutionary act.

Particularly living in a society that, you know, so often has seemed bent on, you know, tearing them down, tearing down the confidence, tearing down the self esteem, the feeling that you, that you matter. That's just very important work.

Yeah, speak on it. Speak on it.

Yeah, very important work. From, you know, from the color of your skin, you know, to the grade of your hair, how you wear it.

Like I've just been like this week, I've seen at least three or four different stories in the news of kids being suspended or written up because they wanted to wear afro or because they wanted to wear locks. There's just like this, this assault.

Yeah. And you, you mentioned, you gotta speak on it.

You already know, you mentioned the articles that are out there about young people being suspended for those things. And what's particularly interesting for me, Rolanda, are those things that work against young black girls or young girls of color in school.

These stereotypes about a young girl, the way she expresses herself, but she's maybe emotional or she has an attitude or all of these things that also plays into how they're treated in the school, often by administration, often by security, at times the deeds and what have you.

I think that's an interesting thing that's not being talked about is a difference between how young girls of color are dealt with when it comes to an infraction. See that difference be between their white counterparts or even boys in school. Girls are suspended at a much higher rate than boys.

Certainly girls of color are postended much more at a higher rate than their young white counterparts. And I don't think that those things are being talked about.

And so I think what's been really great about social work is that I've been able to partner it with focusing on still brains because you know, that's always been an interest. Of course, having those discussions, right.

And narrowing that down into even how we deal with our own in the school system based on the stereotypes that we sometimes have about ourselves and what that does and what that tears down what someone is trying to learn, trying to be there and to be present and to invest in their education.

How important would you say cultural humility, cultural responsiveness, some folks even say cultural competence. How important do you think that is to your role in the work that you do?

I think it's real, it's critical. On a scale of 1 to 10, off the charts. And I think what's.

Even now when I say that I work at actually pretty much an all black high school in regards to the demographic of students, there's some teachers we don't have. We have teachers who are both white teachers who are black.

But what's interesting is being really, really immersed in my own community and still having to talk about those things.

And I think when you're in a school that is challenged, when you're in a school system that is challenged in communities of color, sometimes we don't think about race because we're thinking about other things. We're thinking about am I going to be able to get to school because I have to take 3 and 4. I'll say 3 or 4.

Need the transportation shift to get there and I may not eat before I leave. Right. When I get in the classroom often, sometimes my behavior is looked at and judged and criticized as opposed to who I am as a person.

And so I think what's really great about working where I'm at, enjoying this work, is that I bring that conversation, or I should say I help bring that conversation back to the table.

When we talk about race and how that impacts you as a Student as a young person, as a teacher who works in this environment, Even though it may seem obvious, I don't think that we talk about it enough because I think it's a given. Sometimes when we're in communities of color, that only gives ways most.

Sometimes we don't because we have our own challenges in communicating our frustrations, that we have our emotions about it. You know, we hear. It's like you hear someone call another student ghetto or like, those types of things, because that's what ghetto people do.

What is that? What role does race play in that conversation?

Yeah.

And, you know, working with high schoolers, again, I think, you know, they were teenagers. It's refreshing and it's inspiring. The potential. The potential is just so. I'm in awe of them every single day. Absolutely in awe.

Because the girls still show up and boys still show up, and, you know, they're there despite what's going well and despite what's going not so well. But I don't think we. I think when it's, like, commonplace, like when you don't have to think about race, you know what I'm saying?

We don't have to think about it because we live with a lot of challenges as people of color. And you ask how. What role does race and everything that goes with the play. In the work that I do, being.

Able to understand and recognize some of the social challenges that come along with being impacted by structural, Systemic. Systemic racism, you know, is really, really critical and important. Have you ever heard. When you.

When you were talking just now about some of those challenges, have you ever heard the. I don't know if it's a poem. I'm guessing this poem or by it by a person called Joshua T. Dickerson. It's called Cuz I Ain't Got a Pencil.

Have you ever heard that?

I don't know that poem, but I've heard the title of that.

Okay, so here, I'm just gonna read. I'm just gonna read a little bit of what I pulled up just while you were. While you were sharing there. So it's called Cuz I Ain't got a Pencil.

Says it says, I woke myself up because we ain't got an alarm clock. Dug in the dirty clothes basket. Cause ain't nobody watched my uniform. Brushed my hair and teeth in the dark. Cause the lights ain't on.

Even got my baby sister ready. Cause mom wasn't home. Got both of us to school on time to eat us a good breakfast.

Then when I got to class, the teacher fussed Because I ain't got a pencil.

When you were sharing, it reminded me of this particular poem, but it also reminded me of how sometimes educators, particularly if they don't have a certain level of awareness about what it means to be, you know, impacted by, you know, classism, structural racism and all that, can sometimes look at behaviors as they show up and not really pay attention to what might be going on in the background.

Yeah, that's every. So, you know, I'm sharing that with my students.

Oh, absolutely. I'm going to email it to you. And then when I put this post up, I'm going to share a link to it. Listeners and the readers, too.

Yes. And not just with life students. I really think that that's one of those things that, I mean, that really gets close to home.

And some staff may know that.

But, you know, I think something that you mentioned, like being working within a system, within a system, within a system that is dysfunctional, we talk about, like, how challenging it is for young people to show up. It's challenging, but you just show up to and to give thinly and to also. I mean, you know, we're talking about.

Chicago's talking about going on strike.

Yeah.

My work as a social worker who works within that system, you know, they do need a day of action. Like, how does that impact me as someone who want to provide support around that?

The other thing that we talk about, too, is how to work with young people so that they too, can speak out on these things, become proactive and active and activists despite their challenges. Rhonda, that poem that you read is real.

At the end of the day, how do we as service providers who also work in this field, partner with those that we serve and in my case, partner with young people to where those things you're going to get through it. And you still show up.

You still show up. You even said earlier, you know, you approach things from a strengths perspective. That's an important part of the picture.

You know, there are a lot of challenges, but sometimes, you know, folks don't always look at what's going right or where can we build from?

You know, you still have to work it out. And so how do we problem solve, I should say resolve and problem solve, because those challenges I think that we witness sometimes also feel we.

We have. We have to work that out. You know, I call that, you know what I call that? I don't know if you know what I call that? I call that funky production.

Funky production. All right, say a little bit more about that.

Funky production is it may not be the best production company. The production may not be beautiful. Right. But we going to put this thing together. We're going to make it work.

I don't care if we have to duct tape it, staple it, paperclip it, you know, march in the shoes, what have you, we're going to get this done. If your goal is.

And specifically in working in the school where there are challenges, and being a social worker within that environment, partnering with young people, helping them to identify their goal, and if your goal is to get from point A to point B, and that's graduation and you have all these. You know Tony Alvarez, right?

Oh, yeah. Every time I see him, I always say, oh, you know, l o t i loves you. I just say hello for you every time I see him. And he remembers, too.

Tony Alvarez, without a doubt, was one of my favorite professors in that program. I still utilize a lot of the things that I received from him. I still talk about squigglies.

When students of mine are breaking down what's on their plate. You know, point A, you're right here. Point B, we're trying to get you there.

And in between, you have all these squigglies that's throwing you off course. If that's your goal, point B is your goal. What's my role for you as a social worker? How can.

As a social service provider, how do I support you in that process? Do I need to get my duct tape out, my stapler out?

What can we do? What do we need to do to make this work?

Yeah.

Yes. Yes, Yes. I like that. That was funky production.

Funky production.

Funky production. Making ways out of no way. Funky production.

Yeah. And keeping you. Helping you to tap into your own empowerment.

Yeah.

Empowering you, but helping in turn find that life with joy of your own empowerment. Finding your way. Be it through therapy, be it through counseling, be it through group counseling.

Be it through giving you a dollar when you don't have a dollar to get on the bus or whatever. I think all of that is a part of social work. We can take that test that we talked about earlier. We have to get that license.

That's right.

That's documented. The state says that we are capable. We have quality, qualified. He put in these hours. But I don't think that there's any certificate.

There's no piece of paper.

There's no dollar amount that can be placed on being in this field and connecting with individuals on a human level and wanting them to succeed and feeling passion and compassion and empathy. And like all of those things that Sometimes we don't need a fucking to tell us about. You know, we know what it is because we feel it, and we show.

Up, don't always need a book. And, you know, sometimes what you might have read in the book might be different from what's showing up in the. In real life, in real time.

You know, we got to remain open, too. So with that, have you had a proud moment or is there a moment you can recall or a situation or a.

Something that might have happened that kind of was confirmation? Like, you know what? I'm in the right place or I'm doing the right work, or, you know, I'm working in a way that's.

That's fulfilling to me, but it's also helpful to other people.

God, I think it is just kind of acknowledging where I am and the partnerships that I have with them. My students, you know, you show up on the scene and they don't know you, and they don't.

May not trust you based on, you know, past history or past trauma or like, all of these things. And the school that I'm at right now, this is my second school year there. First year was okay.

The second year has been something special, I think, because our relationships are. They've just been blossoming. You know what I mean?

I think for me to answer that question in a nutshell, version, just seeing students come back, show up, and staff who come back to school the next day when they have had a challenging day the day before, even if I played a role in that or not, doesn't matter. I may not have spoken to those students the day before about that challenge. Right. But seeing students come back, that just.

That's everything. That's everything.

There are no words. But to that, I would also add that it's really valuing the work that students have put in, that we've put in together.

You know, a student says, you know what? I need to come here and talk to you. You. Whereas before, they wouldn't have done that. They come to you because they trust you.

You know, they put it all down in your office. Because letting students know that that is a safe space, working in a. In a school environment can be, depending on the school, right?

From my experience, can be. It can be challenging. You know, so those days where students just, like, shows up at your door, you know, you just saw the other students say they.

They just treated somebody. They just went in, they just got upset, they just, like, lost it. And they show up at your door because they know that this is a safe space.

Yeah, that that's, you can't, you can't, you can't put a, you can't put a price on that. And that raises another important question that I have.

So I'm hoping that, you know, we're doing some truth telling here so you can, you can see, set the record straight into.

One of the questions that I have is that sometimes, particularly in social work education and in practice too, we can have, or there is sometimes a tendency of folks to just automatically expect people to trust them at times.

So I have all my good intentions and I'm going in, I'm going to be a school social worker and the people are just going to talk to me, the families are going to talk to me, they're all going to trust me.

And then, and then when you meet that reality that it's a little bit, that it's not like that for everyone and it's a little bit harder to build those relationships, it's a really wonderful, truly a wonderful thing to be able to be that person for students where they feel that they can come and they can talk to you, they can just be, they can just breathe. What to you are some things that you feel are helpful towards building those trusting relationships?

Because I'm telling you, you know, working through mistrust and some of those feelings, sometimes, you know, folks can get really, really twisted up about that. But it's like, you know, yeah, everybody's not going to automatically trust you, but then what do you do? What do you do or what's helpful to you?

That's true of all of us. Right? Like, even for me, I don't walk into every situation trusting just any old body.

Right.

It is a process.

And I think in the field of social work, regardless of who the individuals are that you are, I like to say partnering with and maybe that speaks to where I'm going with this. It is very important to make sure that the work that you're doing is client centered.

As a person who is, you know, who has education and you have the textbooks and you take the test and you write the essays and you read the articles and like all the reports and all of those things, individuals who we work with, they don't have, they haven't been. That's not their journey. But they know what their story is, they know what their experiences are.

And so I think what's really important is meeting individuals where they are to get all of those things at the door.

But, you know, maintaining your professionalism and your knowledge and all of those things that you bring to the table and help think that it's really important to make sure that the work that we do as service provider is client centered.

And by that I mean walking into a situation where because we have this experience of academia and because we have this experience of, you know, going to this lecture, seeing this person talk and this piece of paper, that piece of paper that hangs on a wall in the frame for that client, that often means nothing. We need to speak to clients in a lighting that they understand with compassion, openness, and not in a way where we are there to fix everything.

And I think for me, what really is important, what has worked, is when someone is referred to me or someone walks in my door, the first thing my questions, what can I do for you? What is it that you need? What's wrong? We don't even have to talk today. We can sit and be still. You just sleep in place where you feel. You feel safe.

But I gna pull out another Tony Alvarez card. Always making sure that clients have a voice in the process.

So working with people, not working on.

People, always honoring that. And no two clients are the same. The stories may be similar, but they are not the same.

And so making sure that we not only see the behaviors and those things that we may read about in the dsm, making sure that we see beyond those labels and those things, we see the person. And I think in building trust for, you know, working with young people as an adult, you know, young people, they have a lot of ideas about adults.

They're often not listened to, they're often feeling hurt, they often feel invisible and those types of things. So I guess I'm speaking to those. And like I said, that's true for any client. Right.

Just making sure that you see the person and the need, not just like these, these terms and.

So important. That's so critical.

I guess I want to reiterate this.

I think if social workers, regardless of race, step into a journey with treatment with the client is that they not make assumptions or based on experiences and like all of those things that we study about it, I guess be very, very client centered.

It's about them. It's not about us. Yeah, it's not about us. We're in it, but it's ultimately it's about them.

Yeah.

So you. So you mentioned Tony Alvarez. So you want to elaborate a little bit more about the impact that Tony had on you. And also, and also, do you.

Are there any other folks who. Who might have had a positive impact on your experience? Does that kind of inspire you today?

You Know, Tony was my guy, I think, because his approach to his work was just that very client centered and partnering with the client and including them in that process. And I think what I really took away from my experiences and teachings that he imparted was, you know, you aren't effective.

I think there are different approaches to social work and providing therapy and counseling and all of those things. Lots of approaches.

But there's something to be said when you have a client who is sitting in a session and they are hitting their goals in those targets that you sort of worked on in hashing out together, and they don't feel like they're sitting in a session. They don't feel like they are seeing like therapy. They know that that's why they're there.

But they don't walk away feeling a sense of empowerment and achievement. And even on those hard days where the session was hard, they come back and they're ready to like jump in there again, right? Or they fall off track.

They come back to a session and they're like, okay, well we need to work, try something else. Or I did this based on what we did before, right? And they're happy to be a part of their own process. Like, that's dope.

That's great.

So I will, when I say Tony was my God, Tony was that, that professor.

He was that guy.

He was that guy for me, as well as learning more about the opportunities to employ therapy, like I utilize that, those things all the time. All the time. So dope. I can't even say enough.

So though, that's so great. I'm really happy to hear that those people, those people stay with us. They stay with us.

There's something really special about being able to spend some time and having some knowledge imparted to you and that it, that it lasts, you know, and then you might find yourself doing some of the same things, you know, and seeing the impact on other people and then you become that person for them. You know, there's something really special about that positive experience.

You know, there are a few other, I think professors, what you talked about academia and I guess, you know, just speaking about the school of social work.

Yeah, it could be academia. It could be also, you know, just people along your journey, you know, that have, that have, you know, had an impact.

I feel really bad because I can't remember this professor's name, but she was also amazing. And I think what I really appreciated about her is that she was so patient with me as a learner. So patient.

Because as we all know, when you are in the classroom in higher education, I have been. So I'll be really careful about the language that I use.

Well, one of the things I talk about on that note, Lottie, and one of the things I talk about with, with my students very early on, we talk about the cycle of socialization and how in some ways we all have, you know, we've gotten information that isn't necessarily accurate, but we're still acting on that inaccurate information. And so, you know, we're all kind of engaged in our, in our own process of unlearning some stuff. Stuff.

And, and I think I, you know, I have a note that I written called degrees are not the final say. So I think just because, you know, even after obtaining like education and degree, it does.

It's not necessarily, and we've talked about this before, it's not necessarily the end all be also.

So I just wanted to, you know, acknowledge and affirm what you're saying there, because this is true even in educational settings, as has been seen from, you know, activism all across the country.

You know, there's, there's still a need for even the, the ones who are doing the teaching, the ones who are in positions of influence to do their own personal work. So. Yeah, I hear you.

Yeah. So real, I mean, you know, talk with you is kind of taking me back to that place.

Uh huh.

Uh huh.

And you know, you know what else? And you know what else?

There are a couple of examples that I sometimes share even in my own teaching now just to, to just to really put it out there that, you know, sometimes things are going to happen, but it's about how do we move forward when those things happen, how can we support one another?

And then also, even as an educator and you know, being okay with being wrong, being okay with recognizing the limitations that, that my privilege, you know, that my privilege has on me, you know, being open to getting that feedback, which isn't always the case, but, but a part that goes into it is just reminding folks to be open to that.

Yeah, nobody's exempt.

No one's exempt from that. No one is.

You know, so I think too what's really helpful.

So, you know, we've been out of the classroom for a while and in the professional arena, I think what's really ultimately important is to like stay on top of your game in the learning process.

You know, once we get that degree and even with that license, I think continuing to like participate in workshops or continuing ed programs, continuing ed classes, to stay on top of what else is out there, that continuous, I think, growth, as far as that is concerned, I think it's also important.

I think I've met, you know, quite a few people through networking, attending teaching ed classes, being connected to a university or being connected to, you know, some other entity. I find that that's also valuable.

Extremely.

Yeah. Yeah.

Extremely. Extremely. So I have. I have a couple of other questions here for you. So some sometimes. Have you ever done the.

What's sometimes called, like a cultural share activity? It's sometimes used as a lid opener.

Some folks might say icebreaker, but basically it's like, you know, describe an item that's either on your person or item that's important to you, that's really significant to you. Could you.

So would you mind just thinking about an item that either it could be something that you carry with you often or that you just have around that that is. Is pretty significant to you for some reason.

Okay.

Yeah. And sure. So here's mine. So here's one that I. That I often share. So I usually have a bracelet that I wear on my right arm.

And on the bracelet, it's like a little plate on there that has the word Ubuntu inscribed in it. So I put that word in my. My email signatures at the end of all of my posts on.

On.

On. Nah, it's. It's at the end there.

And for me, it's this philosophy that talks a lot about how we're interconnected and our destiny is intertwined and we can't get to a particular place on our own. And so I keep that with me for a couple of reasons.

Before Maya Angelou died, I had the honor of being able to see her speak at Oakland University, where I went to undergraduate back when I was in undergrad, actually. And she would talk about this idea of rainbows in the clouds.

And to her, you know, the rainbows in the clouds were the people who had like, assisted her in some way along her. Her journey.

So whenever she would feel nervous or, you know, would be scared or worried about how something would go, she would think of all those people and in a way, kind of bring them all with her onto the stage. And it would sort of give her the reassurance and the comfort that she could do it kind of thing.

When I carry that bracelet and I think of what that particular term means, to me, it also means something similar. Just an acknowledgement that I didn't get to where I am on my own. And it's just, you know, respecting the folks who.

One who paved the way and then also folks who directly, you know, poured into my life as well. So, yeah, it gives me some kind of encouragement. So that's one reason.

And then the other reason is to try to find, particularly when I couldn't feel frustrated, further away from a person or a situation, if there's some conflict or even if it's something related to social justice, trying to find a common, A common thread to, to try to build from. But everybody, you know, everybody's different. Everybody has something for different reasons, you know.

Yeah, yeah, everyone's journey is different.

And hearing you sharing that, I think in being in this and I think as social workers and regardless of, you know, what area of social work we find ourselves and I think in some way we are this collective stories, if you will. I think we are kind of.

And at a very personal, human level, we're like collectors of stories and even goes beyond that because sometimes we are, we are participants in those stories. But I was thinking of my own journey in this process.

And I think what's important is that we don't become complacent with our own journey and our own challenges and our own self care. I remember you posted that. You sent out this. Give me a shout out to people and friends that, you know, who have gone, who are in this field.

Ask for resources, resources and what would be helpful for social workers.

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Yep.

And so one of the things that I shared was Robert Takagi's book, A Different Mirror. Love that book. It is priceless.

And then after like a couple days later, I said, oh, I should have shared that book about self care because I think that that's really important. And hearing you share that story, I had a moment where like, yeah, I have some things in my life that are really important to me.

Sometimes I carry them, sometimes I don't. One actually was an item that I got when I was in grad school. I got it in Tony's class and he was very intentional about.

I know I keep going back there. I'm going to sound like a broken record.

No, no, no. That speaks to the significance.

It was a couple of things in which he honored anyone's individual journey. And that kind of kept us connected and many ways grounded. And so I have both items.

One is a necklace of shell, another one is a nut that is from Hawaii. And everyone got that. And he had made this comment that, you know, if he ran into, ran into us in the street or just by random.

Well, we know where that show was with that no, you know where it was. I absolutely know where that is. But I was also thinking of the things that I have, an item that I have that I got from my grandmother. It's a dime.

The face on that's on it is kind of rubbed off and it even feels a little thinner than what it was. But I always think about, and I have that done in some way, it connects me to my family. My family and I aren't very close. Right.

I don't think that my journey would have been the same had my relationship with my family been any different.

Even though we're not extremely close, without a doubt been a part of the journey that I've been on, be it leaving home, be it going to art school, undergrad, graduate school, living in different cities. Like, I always have that connection.

And I think that that's one of those things that connects me to my family, that inspires me to continue to, I don't know, be ever growing in some way, even when things are really challenging, to kind of stay the course and always want more and always inspire to do more. Even when even I myself feel broken and that I can't do anymore or that I'm too tired. Because I think about what the alternative is.

I think about why I have this dime that I just happened to get from my grandmother and why I feel like it connects me to my family. I don't know. I think everyone's journey is really different. I don't.

And it might be safe to say, I don't know if we all have mementos or items like that are extremely endearing, or that we hold close or that some of us may not even think about having no state. Indeed. Because we don't think about that because we have so many other things on our plate. I know, that's interesting.

Yeah, that can definitely be a part of it. Sometimes when I'm talking about this with people, someone might say, well, you know, I don't really have a particular item or.

And everybody interprets it in different ways. So some might even say, well, I'm not very materialistic, so I don't carry a particular item. But one of the things that I keep in mind with it is.

Or one of the underlying messages that I get with this is that everyone has something or at least an acknowledgement, some person, some value, something that is important to them. And so some People say, I don't really have that, but I have a memory or, you know, an experience, you know, that I'd had at one particular time.

But it's just an acknowledgement that, you know, as you said, everybody's journey is different. And there's, there's, there's room enough at the table for everyone. I feel the awesome. Yeah, yeah, there's. There it is.

There's room enough for everybody.

One of the things I just say is like, okay, so now it's just on us to, to try to figure out what our best way or how our best way to show up would look like, what that would look like for us. Yeah, there's a place for everybody here.

Yeah. And you know what? I'm going to. I haven't done it in a really long time. I think that would be great to introduce to my students.

If it's not something that they may have on them, maybe something that they can think of. It doesn't have to be limited to an object. It can be a person, it could be a memory.

But what comes out of this, or at least in my experience, it's been a way to get pretty close to people if they're willing to go there, provide an opportunity for people to take risks and to share a little bit about themselves. You know, all types of things come up.

You can sometimes learn about things that were really, you know, exciting for folks, things that are really painful, but giving folks a chance to put that out there and be supported and even to think on it.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for, for sharing that with me. I'm. I'm wondering if I'm going to make that a regular thing or not.

I'm kind of going back and forth with it.

I like it.

Yeah. To see what, what folks are thinking. So. So my, my podcast trademark. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it could be. It could be. It could be.

There was this one time when I was working with some students, it was a communication exercise where they had to, you know, one person knew what an object was and the other person had to guess what it was asking for the first go round, asking closed ended questions versus asking open ended questions. And I was so, you know, I was so excited.

It's like, look what I came up with because I really thought about this maybe 10 or 15 minutes before going in there and they said, oh, it sounds like 20 questions. Because I was explaining it to him and I was like, oh, look what I. I was just so proud of myself. And you say, oh, it's 20 any questions? So I'm.

Like I said, really, y' all could have kept that. Y' all could have kept that. But I think it's a. It's a good thing to do just to. To get to know a little bit more about people's stories and what.

What's important.

So the last question then would just be, I sometimes get messages from folks wanting to know if there was any advice for people who are considering social work, choosing social work, or going into social work. Do you have any advice for people who might be considering it as an area of estate study or going into it for a career?

I think where you want to be. I think to be in this field, you have to love the work. So I think maybe folks would want to ask themselves that question.

For me, if someone feels hesitant that this work is what they can absolutely, without a doubt, without question, be passionate about. Be passionate about it, unwavering, then absolutely go for it.

All right.

There's something else that's calling you or you have doubts or what have you. I think connecting with other social workers and connecting with professors, visiting schools, those types of things.

I think that that's really important. But if it's something that you passionately are. Want to pursue, I think, yeah, go for it. That's what I say.

Okay. All right. What do you say?

When I'm new thing, anyone can.

Who is interested in pursuing social work as a career or considering it as a career, considering studying it. I just. I just would advise folks to really make a commitment, a lifelong commitment to doing professional, personal work on themselves.

Always figuring out, trying to search and to put themselves in situations that. That bring things to the surface that they often take for granted.

Recognize that you are privileged in some ways, even though you might be oppressed and discriminated against in other ways, and just realize everything is an ingredient. Our identities matter. Every. Every part of your identity is, Is. Is in. Into a situation.

I tell people that, you know, people bring everything they have to a given situation.

All your experiences that you've had up until up until that point, up until that minute will still impact and influence how the interaction is going to go or how the decisions that people are going to make.

So you are that person that steps across that threshold when you are sitting in the classroom studying about social work and everything that goes with it. You are that same person who you were before you invited to step into this arena.

And given that, even when you step into this arena, you're not stepping through some barrier that the same stuff that's happening on the outside doesn't happen in the room. Really. Just having a commitment to personal work. That's the biggest lesson that I internalized as a student and that I carry with me now.

I think it's also important to ask what's up? The question, what your intentions are, what your goals are in being a social worker? Like, what is your intention?

I think a lot of times individuals may fall into this work because they want to.

Do good or to save individuals or for some individuals, sometimes I think that finding themselves and doing this work can also come with a certain level of guilt and that they want to get back in a way. And maybe that lines up with what you were saying about, like, your identities.

All of the identity parts of your identity matter, like deep pay attention. But your intentions aren't really, really important as well.

Yeah. Examining your intentions, because sometimes those intentions might not line up with what. With what people actually need.

I talk all the time about how, you know, there.

There are these movies that have people who aren't a part of particular communities going in and then at like the end of the 90 minutes or whatever time, they're like the leader of the whole thing. And it's like. And I think that's an element that definitely exists in some spaces within social work.

This savior thing, this, I'm gonna swoop down, I'm gonna change your life all by myself, you know, and really closely connected to that. It can be kind of a feeling that I know what's best for me, for you, which can also be pretty problematic.

So checking that, I think are also things that will be important for people who would consider going into social work.

That's real.

Yeah. All right. Any closing thoughts?

I don't. I think this is. I'm really excited about this. And more of these to come with different individuals.

I think that this is a great way to connect individuals within the work community and to learn about different experiences that social workers are having. The work environment, I think even outside of the work environment, I talk about self care a lot. I don't think that we focus on that enough. So.

Yeah, I'm excited for you and I'm excited to see this project. Phone call.

Yeah.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And this is, as a reminder, this is the. The very first NAH Podcast.

I'm just really so thankful and grateful that Lottie is here, is here to be a part of that. Really appreciate you coming and sharing your experiences and your thoughts. And yeah, I too, look forward to what's going to happen here.

And I'm hoping that you'll be able to come back too, at different points in time and we can share more. I'm hoping this thing will grow. Yeah, but you'll be able to come back.

There's no hope that it will. Funky Productions make it happen.

Yeah, make it happen. I mean this thing has been, it's been a long time coming.

I was like, you know, reading a lot of stuff and it's like waiting for this, this seemingly whatever perfect moment would look like, you know, after I've learned this much or that much. But no, I just decided, no, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do it.

Technology's to a point now that it's really empowering people to be able to tell their stories and get messages out there that aren't often talked about. And so I'm hoping people will, will learn and grow, you know, as this thing goes on along with me. For sure. I'm just using the cell phone right now.

We're just talking. I'm using this recorder so we'll see how it comes out. No special music at this point, no bells and whistles. But the message.

But the message is what will what will come through and what's coming through our what's coming through tonight and what'll what will continue to come through. So. So thank you. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it.

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