How can we help ourselves and the people we lead to work more closely together, and speak up when there’s a problem, rather than merely just “cope” with it?

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We should get a coffee sometime.

When's the last time you said that to a colleague or they said it to you?

And be honest, when's the last time you actually put a date in your diary to make it happen?

So many of us in health care are under pressure and feeling stressed.

And when we're in that zone, we start talking about coping.

But why should just about managing, be the best we can hope for?

This week, I'm delighted to have James Spice back on the podcast to talk about how connection can help us do more than just cope.

By finding ways to reconnect with our colleagues, what James calls reteaming, we can check in on those around us and hopefully get some air cover of our own.

This is about more than just checking in over Zoom or Teams, but setting an intention to spend quality time with members of your team.

So when you ask them how they're doing, you'll get back more than I'm okay.

or just about caping.

So if you've got a sneaking suspicion that things with your team just aren't quite as how they should be, then listen to this episode for some really quick tips and hacks about how to get your team back on track.

If you're in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you're feeling stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options.

I'm Dr.

Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog

Hi, I'm James Spice.

Um, I've always been very passionate about the development of human beings, so I work now as an executive coach and a facilitator, helping people find space to be able to be more effective, to reflect, learn, grow, and find a more purposeful way of being for themselves.

it's wonderful to have you back, james.

Thank you so much for coming on.

Last time we had you on the podcast, we were talking about it's okay to not be okay.

Um, are you okay right now?

An excellent starting question, Rachel?

Yes, I'm very okay, thank you.

Um, uh, not just the sort of the, the spring, finally, the sunshine seems to be coming out, which always puts a pep in the step.

Um, but really excited to be back with you and to be able to engage around the topic.

I'm very passionate about.

So whenever we speak, we, we end up talking about teams.

We end up talking about people.

We end up talking about self-awareness and people understanding each other.

Can I just ask you, so I know you work with teams around the country and in fact around the world.

What have you been noticing in the past six months?

Have, have things changed much since we last spoke?

Yeah, I think, what I'm really noticing is the, is the ongoing drive to the tactical.

Now what I mean by that is really just people repeatedly getting busy in the deliver, deliver, do, do, do, do, do.

Now, while that is, uh, it's all about efficiency, then.

Now the problem is with that is that we, if we don't take the time to stop and raise our field of vision to be a little bit more strategic, um, if we don't look around and say, well, who, who's around us?

How are they?

And then how are we?

We run the risk of, um, falling backwards, and that's where the rise of mental health challenges are coming in.

Uh, you know, and it's reported a moment a lot in the UK around sick days and what's the cause of that?

So I think that the, has it got better?

I don't think we've worked out yet how to collectively get better.

That's an interesting observation.

I was talking to somebody the other day about wellbeing in in organizations and I think people are individually taking their wellbeing a little bit more seriously now, particularly when they are perhaps working from home.

And, um, even in healthcare, we still have quite a lot of people working at home they might, whereas before they, of course, consulting with patients, you need to do face-to-face unless you're on the telephone or video.

But a lot of the time you've got like admin and paperwork and, and, and now lots of people do that from home.

And I was talking to a consultant the other day that said she's not been in the same room as her consultant colleagues as, as a team for about three years now.

And so there is that, gosh, I'm at home, so I need to take my wellbeing seriously.

So I'm getting up and doing my, my exercise, I'm taking breaks.

But what I have noticed that is that people that have then completely lost the connecting with team piece, the informal interaction piece, and uh, I think rightly, um, on the five Ways to Wellbeing connection is a really, really important piece of the jigsaw.

And so connecting on online, just it's not, it's not the same.

We've run a, a few face-to-face events recently, um, FrogFest, which was absolutely wonderful in over a hundred people.

And yes, speakers were great, of course, but actually the, the, the really massive thing was people just talking to each other and, and connecting in a way that we wouldn't have got virtually.

And so I'm wondering if we really lost something, particularly with the informal interactions, but even the formal interactions as a team because we are all online.

And I think that is really affecting our wellbeing in our mental health.

No, I, I agree fully.

I mean, human beings, we are fundamentally, uh, a community based.

That's where we come from.

You know, we come from tribe, uh, we come from community, we come from collective.

Um, yet now, uh, as you say, so many of us are living so isolated from each other.

And so while a lot of the practices, as you say, people tend to be exercising a bit more mental health, overseas aware, mindfulness, meditation, gardening, musical instrument, you know, people tend to be sort of developing the hobbies back again for themselves.

But we're really missing that collective.

Um, I was in, uh, Dallas last week with a client I worked with for more than a year virtually, and it's been really deep, really effective work within teams and with individuals.

I walked into their offices last week and it was literally like a family reunion, you know, that we hadn't, you know, and it was the most incredible connection.

Uh, and as you said, it's the informal, you know, the formal we tend to be able to do.

Back to my point about tactical.

We've developed this really well enabled tactical way of engaging with each other, but there's something missing, and it is that informality.

We look at any of the, the learning models, they say 10% comes out of a room from a formal, sort of theoretical exchange of, that's where 10% of learning comes from.

20%, so double what we would read out of a book or in a, in a training session comes from the informal conversations we have around the topic.

Um, and then the rest of course coming from practical application, which, which is important.

And also practical application.

If we talk about communities, we talk about people being together, practical application does not happen in isolation.

It happens with others so we get the feedback.

You know, we, we can celebrate the wins together, we can learn together.

So all of those pieces, so we're talking 90% of learning is done in community.

You started off by talking about us being stuck in tactical, do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

My observation is, particularly in healthcare, even if we are in the same place, in the same building and we could get together, there is so much work.

I'm thinking of, of, of GPs that you all are sort of working alongside each other in your rooms.

You might come out for five minutes to go to the lube.

A lot of people are eating their lunch in front of their desks, not taking coffee breaks, because just getting through the workload that, that's pretty much all, all we can manage.

Absolutely.

And, and the system is set up as such.

And so it is much, it is extraordinary for people to be able to say, actually we value the importance of it so much that we actually create the time for it.

And I think that that's why I do, you know, a lot of the work I'm doing at the moment, I'm calling it reteaming.

So it's actually, it's like reforming, you know, reestablishing those connections formally and informally.

I think there's definitely a duality in those, uh, in the importance of both.

But if we aren't coming together, the, the risk is, is that nothing is going to change.

And so if we're inside a system, so you talk about GPs where the system, if the pressure is so massive that if it just keeps going on repeat, the busyness isn't going to stop.

The amount of work isn't going to decrease miraculously.

So then what's going to happen?

What's the risk?

The risk is, is we keep, do, do, do, do, doing, and we don't take the time to actually deliberately try and shift it for ourselves.

Now, what that looks like practically, you know, that's down to, to individuals, but I know that, I don't think, I'm pretty clear that the prefssure can't just continue without there being some sort of release.

And actually there's a lot of evidence that even if you are still under that, that pressure and that workload, if you have a really good team, really good peer group backup from your colleagues, air cover, then actually it's a lot easier to cope.

To cope with that workload.

Cope.

That's interesting word in itself.

Cope.

You know, it, that it's like the, our way forward is just to cope better, which is, perhaps a, a, maybe a, it's a different conversation, possibly that one.

I think it's a great observation though.

I mean that that's what this podcast is about, and if I talk to any GPs, lots of consultants at the moment, you know, you'll say, how, how are you doing at work?

And it won't be, yeah, work is great.

It'll be, well, I am just about coping.

So there's sort of like no sense of I'm really thriving and I'm really loving it.

It's like, am I coping or am I not coping?

And like we've seem to have made coping the bar that we're trying to reach, which that is

This year I've made it because I coped.

I mean,

It's literally,

What frame are we living in?

And I think, I mean, that's okay.

Isn't that when you're in crisis and I think, you know, COVID, I, I coped in covid, we coped in this crisis, but we're in this, I hate this word, but it does describe it pretty well, perma crisis at the moment of lack of funding, particularly in NHS.

But I think, I think most, most areas there are lack.

There is a lack of funding, lack of the right trained people to be able to do the job.

And we are in this perma crisis.

So this whole, yay, I've coped with another day, or I'm just about coping with my job in my mind, and perhaps I'm too idealistic.

I, that's not what I want for my work.

So, James, as you're saying this, I'm just thinking, part of the stress, I think in any organization is our team.

It's the people we are working with, right?

Because they might not work in the same way as us.

They might do things that annoy us.

They might not be doing their job properly.

They, we might ask 'em to do stuff, they're not doing it.

They might be conflict, they might not want to do things that would make things easier for all of us.

They might be off sick, blah, blah, blah.

So we've got this thing where you are saying, actually team is really, really important for human thriving and thriving in the workplace.

And on the other hand, sometimes it just feels like if my team just went through annoying, if I could just like get rid of the people aspect, I would be fine.

You know, I think often this thing around people annoying us, you know, the frustration, it's like, you know, why can't you just?

Is the thinking pattern.

Um, and it's, you know, I've worked with hundreds of thousands of people all around the world, different cultures, different types of organizations or businesses, and I, I've yet to find the person that says, James, I go out of my way every day just to really annoy that person.

I really wanna piss people off when I go to work.

it's like, how do I get under their skin?

How do I drive them nuts?

How do I make them lose their shit?

Mm-Hmm.

So the reality is, is that is not the intention of people.

And so I think often the starting point is just to remember most people's intentions.

In fact, based on my experience of the world, is I've yet to find that person.

So the intention isn't to go out there cause trouble, you know, make people's lives harder, difficult, you know, undermine.

Yet the impression that we have is that people are.

There's this disconnect between the intention that human beings are, uh, uh, are setting for themselves.

And, you know, uh, I think a big part of the self work is understanding what are my intentions?

And that's where values self-awareness is, that's why it's so crucial to know what is my starting point.

So I think that's the, the self piece.

But then the, the others piece, this crucial piece around teams is, is what is the impression that I'm leaving with others?

Because if my impression of my intention is stretched, so the, in the impression of the other person is that you're just a pain in the arse, um, or you're difficult to work with or any of the other iterations of that idea, is not aligned to the person.

The individual is gonna feel really frustrated.

They're like, I can't get through, I can't contribute, I can't, I'm getting better, or whatever the self story of this is.

So that's to me is where team is because of course, the closeness of our intention and the impression we give others is really our impact.

So the closer we can bring these, the intention and the impression, and it's a journey, and it's not easy.

It's always easy to talk of a theory rather than in practice, but that is to me is what teams are about, okay?

We don't live in isolation, and if we try, there's massive consequences to our health in, in many ways.

I've just written an equation.

Have I, have I got this right?

So intention plus impression equals impact.

Yeah.

It's, it's not always plus.

Okay.

Or minus impression.

call it.

Yeah.

It's, it's sort of like, it's like it's the closeness to them is the impact so that it's, rather than it being a sequential equation, it is something we call the three Is.

Oh, what's the third one?

impact.

Impact.

Oh, I see.

Okay.

intention, impression, impact.

Yeah.

Okay.

that is very helpful.

That is really helpful because then you've got something to actually work on.

So I'm thinking about, well, my intention, you know, that that's me, that's what I'm thinking.

But the more I understand myself, uh, in terms of self-awareness, actually sometimes I don't even know my intention.

So that's one piece of self-awareness or my motivation.

and particularly Rachel, any conversation around tough conversations, feedback, any type of time there's a, an issue in any relationship, the first thing I always say to people is, what is your intention?

And if people go, oh, I'm not really sure, well, I've gone, you go away.

Don't even bother having that interaction until you know what the intention is.

And, and then I say, be explicit about it.

So if I'm gonna have a tough conversation, I might be, Rachel, I need to have a conversation with you about X.

And my intention behind the conversation is this, I sort of create the, the bowl within which the parameters of the conversation can be held.

And so then if I defer from it or the other person it’s like, well hold on we’re getting out of context here, let's get back to where we want to be.

Have you ever heard of anybody who leaves a better impression virtually online than they do sort of face-to-face in person?

I think some people have worked out the ability to maybe create a persona that's online.

So I think there's maybe a safety perhaps behind that.

So it can be a, you know, I can perform in a certain way so I can leave a version of myself there.

Um, so I've certainly heard of, uh, of people sort of almost creating that safety for themselves.

I have never come across an interaction and relationship that's better online than it is face to face, but I, and I don't know whether that is because you just have to work harder.

Like you say, you have this persona.

Um, but genuinely, I, whenever I've met people face to face, I've thought, oh, I understand you now.

I, I get it.

So, so I think it's just easier face to face and there's lots more cues that you can pick up, and it's easier to be informal.

So that's why it's even more important to be able to understand what the other person's motivation is, because I find that if I've met somebody face to face, we've got a really, well, I've understand where they're coming from.

Then when I meet them virtually, you've got that understanding.

So you already know what their intention is and you, you can guess.

Whereas when it is just online, it, it's so, it's just so much harder to connect properly.

And you have, you end up guessing, don't

You, so you put, that's why I think virtually you have to be explicit.

Like even it's even More important, you know, so I can, I sense that there's a disconnect here.

Let's Just kind of step back.

And I think it's having the confidence to, to sort of call it is, is one piece.

The other is, I think in today's world there are so many teams that are virtual.

And it's like, oh, once a year we're gonna get together, you know, which is, which is really important.

Don't get me wrong.

We, we have to have those touch points.

Um, they're vital.

But if the majority of our relationship is virtual, we can all say, oh, it would be so much better if we could meet.

But that doesn't help.

So it's like, well, if it's going to be virtual, how do we do it?

And that is what this reteaming concept is about.

It's, it's really, if you think about Tuckman's model of, of teams, which is still, you know, I always say the oldest models are the best ones.

'cause if they've stood the test of time.

But that first step is around forming.

And I think that's really where the starting point of reteaming is.

And, and when I say reteam, it's always an interesting one.

I had a conversation with a, a colleague the other day.

And, uh, she's saying, well, so, so James, you know, when you are reteaming, is it, is it a case of are we rebuilding a team or are we, do we have such sort of strong sense of who we are as a team?

Are we onboarding people into the team?

And I, I really said it.

I don't think it really matters.

I still think you need to form again.

Now, for someone that's been part of a team that's been around forever, they might go, oh God, here we go again.

But actually it's really important for us to know what are our foundations, what are our, I, I speak a lot about guardrails.

What are the guardrails within which our team exists?

A a lot of us have, uh, have read or listened to Brene Brown and, and you know, the importance of vulnerability and its amazing work.

Um, Lencioni does it in dysfunctions of a team as well.

You know, that first one is about, is about vulnerability as an emotional space.

Um, and I always say the emotional space of vulnerability of course is really important.

However, we can't just start then, you know, so says an odd one.

Hi, this is who I'm, and this is, you know, the traumas of my past and the wounds and I'm good on this day and bad on that day, and I've got this shit going on in my life.

That level of vulnerability is not the starting point.

What does that actually look like?

And I'm just, in my head, I've got a picture of a really busy general practice.

They've had several different doctors join or whatever, and maybe it's the, the leadership team, a meeting, there's maybe 10 of them.

You've got a new practice manager, two new partners.

Someone's just retired.

They may haveve had a difficult time.

Like what do you actually mean by the guardrails?

What would you be talking about?

The starting point often I find is what's worked for us in teams in the past.

What are the teams that we found really effective?

Where have I felt supportive?

What were the conditions that allowed that support to come to live?

And so then we start, we start to do is we start to use the kind of like the practical experience of the past to create the foundations of now.

I've done it in a whole variety of ways.

Uh, I'm running a, a session, a reteaming session next week.

Um, and we sent out initial thing, uh, around, uh, timelines of our career.

So working highs, working lows.

And so the setup is going to be, is what are the things that allowed the highs to come to life?

What was missing in the lows?

So it's a really simple reflection, reflective process to say kind of, well, if these are all of the conditions that in our past have worked and haven't worked, what are the things we think would work for us as a collective?

So then you're really co-creating and, and then establishing the guardrails together and say, right, well, let's try these.

And what we've done is we're forming enable to norm.

So we'll say, right, let's take these three specific practices and we'll hold ourselves accountable to those because it matters.

Then you can sort of storm around the norm.

So it's like it's, it's almost kind of pulling it down into a much smaller way so that we're reteaming very deliberately.

I love that idea of asking actually in the past, 'cause it's quite difficult.

I, you know, whenever we do training I'm like, okay guys, what do you want the ground rules for this session to be?

Obviously confidentiality, respect, listening.

Anything else?

Everyone goes,

up.

Yeah.

no, that's fine.

That'll do.

You know, I can imagine you sit with their team going, right, how do you want that, how do you want us to tell?

Private team was like, just be nice.

But actually that, that question of what's worked in the past, when was when you, when did you feel like things were, you were really supported?

Then people come out with specifics and then people could be like, oh, okay, that's a, that's a good idea, let's.

And then do you get people to like write that?

I mean, what do you then, what do you then do with that?

Because I'm just thinking, the problem with a lot of teams is you, you might meet like that if you are lucky.

And I think the big problem with teams in the NHS, they give zero time for it because they, they, feel they don't have time, therefore you have no time, therefore you don't do it, therefore, you've got this vicious cycle.

But then you go off and you work individually and you might not come back together for, for six weeks.

And actually what happened, when we talk about teamwork, we are generally just talking about interactions between individuals rather than the whole team together.

Absolutely.

I mean, I think you filter down and so if you get a long list of things, what are the three that we're gonna hold ourselves and each other accountable for over the course of the next, if it's six weeks, which is shocking that it takes that long.

But, um, you know, that's the cycle.

And so then the starting point at the end of the six weeks is these were the three things that we all contributed to and said were really important to us.

How do we do?

Are they still important?

You know, what was, what was it like when those things were there?

What was it like when those things were missing?

So, as I said, it allows us to really just hold some consistency, again in this world that is so changing so fast pace.

It's like, well, what are the, what are the real foundations that we're setting?

So reteaming isn't a one-off event.

It's not like, oh, have a reteaming workshop, and off we go.

It becomes a practice is that we are always reteaming.

And how would you do that practically?

Like thi this, this ongoing reteaming, would that if you've got like a, a business meeting or you know, a significant event meeting or is there, is there something small that you could do at the beginning of each meeting just to do a little bit of reteaming?

Yeah, absolutely.

Using Nancy's, uh, Nancy Klein's principles of, uh, check in, check out.

You know, what, what's worked well for us over the last six weeks, what hasn't?

Boom.

It, it doesn't have to take a bulk of time.

The setup does.

I think you need to be very intentional about the opening meeting.

And, but what will happen is if it can become a practice, it should just be a quick check in.

I, I've certainly used the idea of having a custodian of it as well, so they could host the checkin, what's worked, what hasn't, da da, da da, this is where we're at.

And so it just, all it is is, I think there's maybe a couple of things.

I think the first thing is just honoring the fact that this is really important, that how we are, do we care enough about each other to even ask the question, are you okay?

Are we okay?

How are we doing?

That is as a starting point, what a powerful thing to, to know.

And if you look at any of the research behind hype, this sort of elusive concept of high performance, which is very rare.

People love to say, oh, we're a high performing team.

I'm like, uh, are you really?

What happens?

Well, what happens when somebody drops the ball or you miss your target?

And that's often the, you know, the real sign of it.

But the research will always show, there's a couple of conditions that are always present in high performance teams.

One is , that people actually care about you, about your wellbeing.

I mean, it is crazy to think that, that that's rare.

And that's why I think this reteaming piece is there.

The second is that you get strength and are acknowledged for them regularly.

That looks at the, the so common thing that we get hired for strengths and managed based on weakness, which is just a culture soul destroyer.

So yeah, so they're the two things that are, that are always present in high performance teams.

So are we, are we deliberately trying to curate that, which is really what the, um, just something as simple as how, how are we doing?

Are we on track?

Against something that we all agreed at the beginning were important.

And as you said, it's not just throwaway lines of oh, trust and integrity, and it's like, what really matters for us?

And when people get the chance to, I think you really watch how engaged they become.

You know, that's really the, the key point is an engagement.

And then some people are quite funny about it.

You know, I had a client a while back and one of their guiding principles was, don't be a dick.

Which, Which, which, has always sustain with me.

I like, yeah, okay.

That's a, that's a pretty healthy starting point.

So the frame of reference, who's been a dick this week?

Yeah, that does beg the point.

If you've got, if your mantra for yourself is don't be a dick then, like, what's your baseline?

But that actually, I think that's actually, that's actually quite good because I, I, you know, it, it's great to be aspirational.

It's really great.

I would love to be empathetic all the time really insightful wise and listen combine.

Wouldn't it be nice?

Yeah.

Yeah.

If I just think he actually isn't this call, just don't be a dick.

Like, that's like, okay.

Yeah.

That's who I don't wanna be.

That's, that's easier actually sometimes not to be that than it is to aspire to be this amazingly empathetic, wise person.

Does that make sense?

it does.

That's why whenever I talk about values to behaviors link, I always go, what are the, what are the behaviors that bring it to life and what are the values that crush it?

I think we have to explore, I mean, you think about the yin and the yang sort of as a guiding principle, I think we have to be explicit about what works and what doesn't.

And again, it was a frame that was a bit of fun and it, and it meant that you can be wrong.

You can mess up, you can do, it gave space for people to not be okay.

Um, but it's like, don't be a dick about it.

It was, that was the, that was the point that it turns into a problem for everybody.

Yeah.

You can mess up and say, oh, I'm so sorry.

And you know, you kind of add it.

Or if someone messes up, then you can go, oh yeah, that'd be better if that happened, but that's okay.

And we care about you and you are heard and all, and you are safe and all, and all that sort of stuff.

Yeah, it's easier to know what you're trying to go away from sometimes than what you're trying to go towards.

Yeah.

You know, I think, you know, in our, in our work as coaches, you know, often I, I prefer people to not have a not.

So, so I'm aiming to not be this, I always say, well, what's the positive frame of that?

'Cause I think that's, that's a stronger, it's a stronger guiding light individually, but I think it's a team, it's good to know where the knot line sits.

And just thinking about the team, and one of the ways that I can imagine it would help massively on online and face-to-face is you understand what the intention of other people are and their motivations that you understand them.

However, you don't always understand the right way to behave with that person.

I mean, as you get to know them more, you will understand that, in the way that it's gonna get the best thing out of them.

But you do know the way that if you behave like that, you'll definitely get the worst out of them.

If you're accusing judgmental, if you assume the worst of them, you are being a dick, you're gonna get the worst out of them.

And I, and I'll respond in kind often.

Um, so that's why, you know, with any of the tools, insights, Heart Stars are the two that I use.

There's effective, ineffective, there's good Day, bad day again, it's like the importance of understanding that both are there and we can then, we can actually have more robust conversations.

We can say, oh, you know, Rachel, till I'm seeing that you're like, you're being a bit sharp and a bit terse, and you're kind of, and I'm like, I'm feeling a bit like, oh God, I don't wanna go anywhere near you.

Are you okay?

Very different.

It means that I can, I can get the impression and hopefully I can articulate it in a that lands for you.

And it, it, it's much better to get that feedback when you're in a bad day than, oh, Rachel, you're being wonderful and insightful today.

So I think that that's, that's really helpful.

I think there is that piece about under understanding where people are, are coming from, and that, I don't know, I, I've yet to be able to really do that virtually.

That that's the understanding comes, comes more face to face.

And also it, it does come through doing these specific things like, like insights, like the heart Stars.

You've got other things like Met Myers Briggs, Enneagram, all those different things.

Personally, in our team, we all know each other's Enneagram numbers, and it, it really helps me when I think, oh, that person's being pretty sensitive.

There're about that thing.

Oh, that's because they're are maybe, I don't know, number right there nine.

They really, their, their thing is keeping everybody happy.

Whereas I might have gone, boom, let's do this.

They're like, okay, let's just make sure everyone's okay.

But that's really important to them.

Actually that's a strength of theirs, so let's, you know, let's listen to them.

And that, that, that for me has been really, really important.

That's the common language and, and that, so any, it doesn't matter which tool you use, but, but having something to have as a common language that stops it being me at you or about you.

Comes less personal.

So that it just lifts it into the space of whether it's a color, a number, a letter, whichever the, um, whatever the tools are, remembering that there's no tool that is a solution to anything.

The tool is a language to help support, understanding and, and awareness of self.

So use the one that, that connects or that you are most comfortable with, and then that becomes the, the conduit of the tough conversation often.

So you can have some really powerful conversations.

So again, as part of reteaming, it's almost like how do we let each other know that something's not okay?

And that's where we have found that with the Shapes Toolkit that we teach, it's not personality profile, but it does give you a language to then say, I'm, I'm really, I'm feeling, I'm really in the corner at the moment.

I'm stuck in the corner.

I'm in my amygdala zone.

I'm probably not thinking straight and I'm not behaving well.

And, and then if you go, okay, you're in the corner, do you wanna just have a rant?

Just rant, and then we can.

And then the very act of me saying to someone.

I'm stuck in the corner means, right?

I'm like, okay, that's interesting.

So where am I assuming, where am I acting outta fear and all that sort of stuff.

So it can be helpful.

But this does bring up the yes but James of what if you are in multiple teams and they're changing all the time and you're in a different team every day and you the best one in the world, it's, it's fine finding out someone's Enneagram number of your, you know, the, the, the small team that you work in if there's only like five of you.

But what if there's 20 of you and you're all on different shifts and you, you've gotta do these really complicated things with, with different people and you have just haven't, you couldn't possibly do all that deep development with everybody.

No.

Well, so, so again, I think that if you look at it, it's like, whether it's singular team, whether it's a team of teams, whether it's an organization of team of business units, teams, sort of the sequential piece, this is where I think it's so important that organizations try and put in place these guiding principles.

So any organization in the world will have vision, purpose, values.

So there's all, there's the framework that already exists.

So then we go is how do we interpret those values?

That's where subculture starts to come in.

So it's then our relationship to them.

So the language might be set.

So you're talking about when there's multiple teams, there should be a framework upon which we can all rely on.

Now how well that is done is a, a whole other question.

Um, because again, I see a lot of teams within teams, within business units, within organizations that create an us versus them subculture versus a generative one, and that becomes a very different type of conversation as to how do you deal with that?

What do you do?

Because there's gonna be naturally, probably places that you feel way more comfortable, there'll be places that you feel less comfortable.

And this is where leadership starts to come in.

Now, often the most challenging things when a leader of a team, I'm caught in the flux of whatever's happening in the team above me or the business unit or the organization.

And, and I think that's why they often say like how the leadership is the loneliest position of all.

Because typically it says that you've gotta bear the brunt of that on your shoulders, not pass it down and create a space within which your team can thrive.

it's a tricky one.

And, and in healthcare, you know, I think a lot of people have leaders that are very, very separate from their day-to-day work.

So they might have a clinical director, but they see them like once every six months.

So then, then you've gotta sort of do it yourself.

So if I go back to those two conditions, which I thought were really helpful, knowing that number one, people care about you and work to your strengths and acknowledge them.

So you are able to work to your strengths and people acknowledge your strengths regularly rather than try to like correct your weakness.

How, How, do you go about doing that for yourselves if your leader is very distant or, you know, you're only meeting as a team once every six months or even a year.

I mean, and if, if you are lucky, you might get half a day and away day a year in some of these teams, How can you, how can you take control individually, um, and, and to do it for yourself and for yourself and the people around you?

You know, I almost link it back, Rachel, to what you spoke about, like this, the, the informal.

You know, it's like, did is, is there the space for it outside?

You know, in the old days it was like pop down to the pub, which I now, now has obviously different layers of, a lot of people don't drink for a whole lot of reasons or don't have the time, et cetera.

So it's like if the old idea or the concept of the informality of the pub, how do we do it?

Could we meet for coffee?

You know, and that sounds basic.

But it's the intention.

It's like, do we actually meet and just chat and ask the question, how are you not as a passing, like, you know what, what the weather's like today, which is sort of the British version of how are you, it, it, it's actually going, how are you doing?

I know what the pace is like.

And being able to say, this is how I am.

And then maybe through that we can request, if they're saying that, oh, you know, we're gonna have a half day a year go, well that's not enough.

You know, we're gonna, we're gonna request that it's, you know, half day ha you know, once every six months or once, once a quarter.

Can we do something once a quarter?

And it doesn't have to then be in a way day, that's maybe a big budgeted thing.

Could we use, even use the budget in a way that allows us to connect informally more regularly?

I deeply acknowledge how difficult it is to take time where, where we're at at the moment, which is, if I take firstly, we are so busy, there's so things to do, lists.

The pressures are on, um, wherever we're at in our stage of life, you know, there's pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure.

And it is an unusual thing to say, what, what we need to do is to make time.

The reality is, it's just we create it.

If you don't create it again, I think it's looking at the, what's the implication for us of not, if we don't take the time, nothing is going to change.

Um, so if people listening to this go, actually, you know what?

I can hear what Rachel and James is saying and it matters.

It really matters and it would make a difference for me, or there's someone in my team, I can see that they're struggling, and may, and it's not that I'm gonna take on their responsibility, it's just that we're going to have a space.

As I said, you know, my passion is people and their development.

My purpose is to be a safe space upon which people can actually do that.

And that space comes from just saying, let's have a walk once a week.

Let's have a cup of coffee together.

I notice that when anybody shares that they're upset, they're not having good time, they're struggling, I automatically feel it's my fault or not my fault, but my responsibility to fix.

Now, I dunno whether that's a, a, a doctory thing.

Us over, over responsible.

Personality possibly, Rachel.

Fits into your Enneagram or insights would probably go in there.

But yeah.

But this feeling of, oh God.

You know, if, if anyone you work with is feeling is, is not okay that what have I done?

What I haven't, well, what haven't I done to make that okay?

And then that might then stop me really trying to find out and just be able to sit with them and go, oh, how's it going?

And just be able to listen and, and bear witness to that and, and, and, be with them.

And this is, but surely this is back to the, the reteam piece.

That formation is that if we've been able to sit around and go, the teams that have really worked for me is there's a space where I can express how I feel without anyone trying to bloody fix it.

You know, I think this is for me in, in my own development journey is realizing I don't create energy for anybody.

I'm not responsible for the energy.

I'm able to create space within which their energy is held enough for them to work out for themselves.

And so if, if, if those kind of lenses have come up in the forming stage.

So as a team we notice when people aren't okay and we just give them space to talk, that maybe then put some parameters in place for a way of being that could, could help us all.

It does, as you were saying, that it has just occurred to me that, well there, there's two things that have occurred to me.

And I bang on about coffee breaks all the time.

'Cause people need coffee breaks, whatever they, they often don't have them.

I keep saying, you know, just have coffee breaks with your colleagues and that's a great informal way, informal meetup.

But something you said really, um, triggered something in my brain that actually it's not just the informal, we are gonna be here, let's all have coffee together.

There's something about the deliberate coffee with people that's intentional coffee with people to be able to say how you're doing?

Are you okay?

Are you enjoying your work?

What's your strength?

You know, what you, what you really enjoying at the moment, what you not.

'cause that gives you an idea of strengths and, yeah, the actual, you identify they're different people, and once every three months you make sure you go, shall we have coffee together?

Like, I'm, I'm thinking everyone needs a coffee.

Everyone needs a break.

Everyone also needs to eat lunch.

Even though people think they're super human, they don't

No, I see.

We can't look after your body.

People.

Come on everybody.

Body, mind, spirit.

This, that access.

We all know that if you are unhealthy in any one of those, it will manifest physiologically or psychologically.

So let's, let's, use those opportunities that we have to do that.

We have to eat lunch, so why not once a week think, who am I going to deliberately eat lunch with today?

Put this down.

Put it down.

For those of you who aren't watching the video, James is waving his phone at me.

This does not improve our mental, physical, or spiritual wellbeing.

No, just put it away.

Get off your phone, put it away.

Don't even have it on the table.

But I was just thinking yeah, if, if once a week, it's just like, right, shall we have lunch?

Even if it's just a virtual lunch, let's have lunch together and, and talk that deliberate way, I think that would improve our teams and our relationships no end.

So if, if people were to do that, James, um, and you want people to know that you care about them and you want to know how they are and you want to acknowledge their strengths and, and be working to strengths, what, what sort of questions would you be suggesting people might be able to ask each other or talk about together if people were gonna be doing that?

The importance of questioning it, it, it almost, the question is almost irrelevant.

It's something that I've noticed.

I spent a lot of time early in my career trying to find the perfect question.

And what I've found is that if you create the right space and ask the wrong question, the question doesn't matter.

So it's like, so I'm going to the conversation or to the informal space just to be, and I want to let that person be.

So how are, you can sometimes maybe be confronting.

So it's like, what's going well for you at the moment?

Um, you know, is there anything that's really stressing you out?

Um, you know, what are the, so, so again, questions are, can be related to the person.

It can be related to the situation, it can be related to outside, you know, how are things going in X, Y, and Z.

Is there anything that's bringing you energy?

That sounds weird.

That's such a coachy question.

Um, you know, it's like, what, what, what have you noticed at the moment that's, you know, going really well?

You know, you into sports, so that's a closed ended question.

Find, find a link of our humanity.

And to me that's the being piece.

It's why I talk about human development.

So, yeah, I think that to me is what hearing is.

So anyone there that's more thinking, that's maybe a bit more introverted thinking and going, I don't wanna ask how you are in case you ask how I'm then don't.

But go and be with the human being.

Ask the question that is most relevant to allow that connection to happen.

Then we're gonna be starting to really build team, build community.

And in fact, I was just thinking the question, how are you?

Is it particularly good anyway?

Because the answer is always fine.

And then you can go, how are you really?

And then the, the person's then supposed to break down tears and go, oh, it's all bad.

It's just, it's just a bit rubbish, isn't it?

Actually, yeah, what are you working on that you're really enjoying at the moment?

Or, you know, and then you can lead into the what are you not enjoying?

I think the word for me here, and it's interesting 'cause I've put this into our, our new sort of difficult conversations or challenging conversations model is, is curious.

Like if, if you are sitting and you've suggested someone, let's have coffee together, even sit 15 minutes, and you go in there and you are highest intention is for that person to feel that they're being cared about, you, to your highest intention to actually find out how, you know, let's not manipulate your, your intention is genuinely to find out how, how someone is, are they working?

You know, are they able to work in their strengths or or not?

And what they've done well, then you will just be curious like, well, yeah, what's going on for you?

Um, and the more people ask you questions about what's going on, the more you feel they care anyway, don't you?

Yeah, without a doubt.

Again, it is, that's why I say the question doesn't, it becomes irrelevant if our intention is to go and show somebody that we care about their overall wellbeing and to maybe give ourselves the space to actually share a bit about our wellbeing, so becomes two way, then we, then, then it is community.

I don't know Rachel, do you think that people are afraid of, you know, so we know the how are you the, the risk is the, how are you question.

Are we afraid to actually ask and create that space in case somebody isn't OK and then uses that moment to let it out.

I think there might be, there might be something in that.

I think particularly if you are the leader of the team and you are, you are more senior if you ask, are you, are you okay?

And they say, no, I'm really not.

Then you just like, ugh, what have I done?

I've been a crap leader.

I'm a crap manager.

So that, I think that can be quite confronting.

And there's something I I, I noticed recently, and in fact I sent the whole email out about this to the, um, to the people on our list, was that I was teaching some Shape Toolkit and my team were there.

Uh, 'cause they were learning the Shape Toolkit until, this was the day after Frog Fest.

And as I was teaching, in the corner shape about, you know, when you get very defensive and you don't behave well.

All I could think of was the time with my team and I'd been defensive and I'd not let, and I'd not behaved my best.

And thinking, what must they think of me?

I'm saying this and they're not, you know?

So I think sometimes that stops us from wanting to do any of this because we think, oh my God, I behave really badly two weeks ago, and I'm feeling dreadful about it.

So if I now ask them how they are, they're just gonna be thinking, well, I'd be fine if you weren't such an arse.

Which is hard.

It just, I know that, that, that it's much more nuance, nuance in that.

But I think that's, that stops us.

But I think also sometimes people just don't know how to act with people.

I, I was at a book launch recently and uh, this very pleasant bloke was talking to me and I think he was trying to be friendly.

He basically talked about himself for 15 minutes, and I just said, that's great, good to meet you.

And.

Wandered off because he had zero interest in me, zero interest.

And he didn't need to say to me, how are you?

But he could have said to me, oh, what brings you here?

How do you know the person at the book launch?

Even that would've been, I think he thought he was, he was being friendly and engaging, but it, it was, you know, a, it was really boring after the first five minutes, but I didn't feel seen or heard or cared about.

And it didn't need to be a, how are you question?

It just needed to be who are Who are you?

where to go?

Anything, anything like that.

And so I think we think you've gotta have these big conversations.

Actually.

We just need to ask questions and listen.

Like that is probably the most important thing, right?

Human being, not human doing.

And if someone's listening to you, you automatically feel that they care about you and you automatically feel that they know where you are coming from.

And that just like, it just oils the relationship, doesn't it?

It just means that when you do then meet online and there's a slightly difficult conversation and you've forgotten to say your highest intention, hopefully there will be assuming a better intention than they otherwise would.

Or you can flip it the other way around and go, if we are only online, because that's all we have at our disposal, that I can still be curious, that I can still be intentional, that I can still ask questions and listen deeply.

Now it's a, it's a harder practice to kind of, I often walk out of virtual sessions and my eyes are like burning because I'm sort of looking through the screen, really trying to pick the cues up of the other person.

Now, you don't have to always do that, but when it matters, it really, it's really, really crucial.

And James, would you, if you do pick up on a cue?

'cause I think that the evidence is, it's, we are very bad at reading cues online, it's very tricky.

Would you just ask them, say, James, you, I might be wrong, but you, you're looking a bit like, that might be, that might have irritate, I dunno, I don't wanna say irritated, that sounds bad.

But you know, you're, you're looking a bit like that maybe didn't land with you.

Am I right in thinking that or what's going on on, in your head?

Let me

So that for, for the extroverted side of things, that's a great cue.

I think for the introvert, the risk is, is that you shut down more.

When I notice somebody maybe saying something where the words and the body language don't quite add up, I'll just, I'll sit with it rather than move on.

So it's allowing the space for it to come out and go, okay, that's interesting.

Why do you feel that way?

Or, um, how does that really look for you at the moment in the way things are going?

So I'll sort of then use the questions to hold the space, to give the space for the person to step into it.

Again, if they are more extroverted, you can ask straight up, ask the question, and the odds are they're thinking to speak, so they're gonna more likely roll with you.

Yeah.

Like, like, like me, I do need to speak to, uh, understand what I'm thinking.

What, who was it?

Um, uh, Peter Ustinov, yeah.

I love being interviewed.

It lets me know what I'm really thinking.

I love that.

Um, I've a, I've a a, a friend who's a real expert in, in meeting and Dr.

Carrie Goucher, she's brilliant.

She sent an email recently saying these are really helpful things you can say in meetings.

And one of them was when, when you notice someone's not sure bit disgruntled, it's obviously getting a bit header about something you sort of say to 'em, look, actually, can you just explain more about that?

I'm giving you free reign and use as much detail as you want.

And then that just gives, and I was like, what a brilliant question, Carrie.

That's totally fantastic.

The problem, it takes practice, doesn't it?

So, so before practice is time.

So time allows us to practice again.

We always, and uh, I think in our first call, this came back to it as well, you know, it's like, if I'm not okay, can I be okay with not being okay?

I need to journal, I need to kind of reflect, I need to do these things, all of which are time based.

Uh, and we have become professional time fillers.

That is what the human sort of nature has become.

It's like we just fill with time.

That's why I was waving my phone saying, don't do it.

Because it is just, we've got so many ways to distract ourselves.

Um, again, I think where I try and hold my intention is often is just to say Hold on, what's the impact if I don't take this time for me.

So that's why I get out and walk in the mornings.

I try and do it every day, uh, admittedly it's freezing at the moment, so that's a good incentive to stay, not doing it.

But just, just to get out rain, because I know it's important for me.

Um, so that's the, that's the individual relationship.

And then we say, I've got the individual relationship humming.

And as we articulated at the start of the, the podcast, um, I think a lot of people have started to really build healthier practices for the individual based on what we know of mental health and challenges that the world is having.

Now we're saying, so if you can get yourself up and running, can we do it collectively?

So then here begins the reteaming process.

It's like, yeah, it matters.

We don't do it.

We only do it every six months.

So let's, let's just come together, have, let's book a lunch, you know, book that 45 minutes guys, everyone bring in a lunch for somebody else.

You can put a little fun theme around it, or it can just be bring, you know, have your normal lunch, but let's all do it at the same time and let's just check in with each other.

Because that's the starting point.

That's the intention.

Uh, and I think if we begin to do that, we'll see the same type of cadence that we've had with the individual, with the team, because people respond 'cause we need it, so, well,

Well, James, we could keep talking about this for ages and ages, and also we've only done what the first two bits of the Tucker Tucker model forming and norming, and we haven't even done norming, so.

no, I know.

So, but, so that's the reality, Rachel, is that we run too quickly to high performing.

Start with step one.

Let's not run ahead of ourselves.

Um, because it's, it, this, it change doesn't happen quickly.

The reality is if we're gonna squeeze a thing into, or, or, or create space for it one thing at a time, step by step.

So reteam.

So the form creates the norm, alright?

So then becomes the practice.

That's the ways of work.

Then we've established our way of being.

So once you've got that, you can storm against it.

So if you want to know what the sequence is or the sequence is, but start with the intention to say, right, we need to do something as a team.

We need to start building it.

Um, and we can pick it up from there next time or, but imagine the traction of that and the impact of that in your work environments, whatever, or wherever they are.

I'm just thinking of people who's sitting there thinking, well, I'm not the leader in the team.

Um, there's nothing I can do about it.

The first thing you can do, you can just role model, just role model, doing it with people.

Start asking people to coffee, to lunch, and asking them these questions and listening, and you'll soon see that people realize that's so effective.

And then you can, you know, start to start to suggest actually, we'll, team lunch or, or whatever.

And then, um,

one last piece is that you use the word leader in a hierarchical way, whereas hierarchy is about management and management.

In management, you manage Process leader is not about process, okay?

It is not hierarchical.

So the leader is non-positional.

So if I am in a team and I feel I need something, I can be a leader, not the leader, a leader.

' Cause it's important to me.

I need it, so I'm gonna lead this again.

I, I see this so often.

People are like, I'm in a leadership position.

I'm like, okay, I think you're in a management position and hopefully you are wanting to be a leader.

That's a, that's a much more powerful way of understanding it.

I love that.

That is, that is just, I, as you said that James, I've just had so many realizations.

I'm like, oh yeah, that person's in a management role and that Oh yeah.

Okay.

Thank you.

That is, that is brilliant.

And there's so much more, so we'll get you back again to maybe talk about the, the rest of that, that, that model, you know, actually, what do you do when you're actually storming?

Because it happens to every teen, doesn't it?

And but we really worry.

We think, oh no, it's all gone.

It's all gone to shit, 'cause no one's getting on what actually often that, that you need to go through that, but we'll hold that for another day.

Thank goodness we don't on or else we'd never change.

Yeah.

And nothing would ever get done.

'cause we do know from Lencioni too, that Conflict is really important, but we just frightened of it.

What would you say, what would your top three tips, uh, if you were to distill everything we talked about and did three, three main things, what would you, what would you suggest?

I think one that, so I think the three Is stood out for you, uh, out of it and, and the importance of being intentional.

Do you know what your intention is, okay?

So that links back to our, our, the first podcast we had, and I'm sure other amazing, uh, speakers and interviewees would've spoken about it.

So do I know where I'm coming from?

Values, purpose, you know, where am I at in my life?

Um, all of those reflections, they should spit out intention.

If you don't know what your intention is, stop, don't say anything.

Do not engage.

Go back, work that out.

' Cause once you've got your intention, you've got an anchor for whatever's gonna happen around you.

So, number two, the importance of team and community cannot be underestimated.

It is fundamentally essential for all of us to have an environment where people care about us, where people are there to, um, support us, learn with us, grow with us.

So if we know that is the case, let's reteam, let's check in, let's actually deliberately do anything.

As you said, it might just be a coffee lunch.

Okay?

If we have a team meeting, make one of them per month.

And, and say, right.

So if we're a team, what matters to us?

You know, ask that kind of question.

Say, you know, what works for us as a team?

What doesn't work for us as a team?

So then we start to really form as a team.

It creates again, then it creates us anchors.

Then the third thing that I would say, uh, out of today is, you know, we've spoken quite a bit about the, the language, the tools, whether it be Shapes Toolkit, the extraordinary kit that you, uh, that you've created, whether it's an Insights, Myers-Briggs, whatever, heart Styles, perhaps even, it's the starting point is just create our own common language.

See if there's something available to you that allows us to have conversations about ourselves or provide feedback to each other in a safe way.

I love those.

I love those.

That's so, so helpful, James, and, uh, just, you know, that, that bit about intention, I'm really gonna take away then the next conversation I go, whether it's a, you know, whether it's a difficult conversation or whether it's just a, a catch up, actually, what's my heist intention here?

What's the intention for, for both of us that's gonna help us operate and do, and do good in the world?

So that's, that's really helpful.

So James, I know you do this with teams, you're very skilled facilitator.

If people wanna find out more about you and your work, where can they go?

I, you can look at my website, jamesspice.com.

You can pop me an email at james@jamesspice.com if you would like to just find out anything more.

Um, if you have a team and you'd like to look at what does a, a process look like that could be guided or supported virtually, or face-to-face, um, that's the work that I'm passionate about and I'm always open to connecting with people, uh, to see if there's any way I can be of support.

Wonderful.

Thank you so much, uh, for being on today.

And yeah, I do encourage you to, to get in touch with James.

And if you want a resilience, productivity, self-awareness mindset training program for your team, that will actually help you to interact and connect and get to know each other much more than, than, than the Shapes program is available.

Um, it helps give you a common language and it helps you address these really important things of resilience.

So do get in touch with us at shapestoolkit.com if you wanna hear more about that.

And, uh, if you're interested in this thing about being a rescuer and always feeling guilty and thinking you've gotta rescue people, we will, uh, put a download in the show notes all about how to escape the drama triangle and stop rescuing everybody, which will be really helpful.

That sort of thing has been a complete game changer for me.

So, so do check out that download.

So James, yeah, will you come back and, we'll, we'll finish, we'll finish our half of this conversation about that, that model

And no doubt spawn a whole lot more.

Rachel, it is always such a delight to think with you.

It's, uh, it's really wonderful.

So thank you for the work that you're doing and for the invitation.

I'll, I'll always come back.

Thanks for listening.

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