Transcripts
Hello, welcome to the Close The Loop podcast.
Kevin Dieny:And today we're going to be diving into marketing plans.
Kevin Dieny:We're going to go back to the basics a little bit, in a sense, talking
Kevin Dieny:about the strategy, the planning, what should businesses be doing?
Kevin Dieny:And ultimately we're after, what are the marketing plans
Kevin Dieny:that can help a business scale?
Kevin Dieny:So that's a little different than let's say, give me the best marketing
Kevin Dieny:plan for my business per se.
Kevin Dieny:Because a marketing plan that helps scale is a little different.
Kevin Dieny:When it comes to a marketing plan, we're talking about a business, trying to
Kevin Dieny:figure out what it's going to do next.
Kevin Dieny:I think a marketing plan really is about helping a business
Kevin Dieny:know, okay, what's the next step?
Kevin Dieny:I think every business has had that point where like, well,
Kevin Dieny:I could do everything better.
Kevin Dieny:I could spend more money.
Kevin Dieny:I could get more leads.
Kevin Dieny:I could try to get more sales.
Kevin Dieny:I could try to keep my clients longer.
Kevin Dieny:There's a lot to do.
Kevin Dieny:So what should I be doing next?
Kevin Dieny:And especially when it comes to scaling, that means more money in
Kevin Dieny:the door and quicker and faster.
Kevin Dieny:So this is a little different spin.
Kevin Dieny:To help us dive into this topic I have a very special guest.
Kevin Dieny:His name is Nick Packard.
Kevin Dieny:Nick is the founder of NP connect, a fractional CMO business, that
Kevin Dieny:works with companies of all sizes to accomplish their marketing goals.
Kevin Dieny:From creating logos, to building websites, to defining and executing
Kevin Dieny:digital marketing strategies, Nick is a complete resource to businesses
Kevin Dieny:throughout the US and abroad.
Kevin Dieny:Nick is passionate about helping small businesses grow.
Kevin Dieny:He comes from a family of entrepreneurs, really cool, and knows firsthand the ups
Kevin Dieny:and downs that comes with the territory.
Kevin Dieny:He also knows that these business owners are good at their craft,
Kevin Dieny:but may not have all the skills to reach the business's full potential.
Kevin Dieny:When not at work, he is at home with his four daughters and wife.
Kevin Dieny:His life is pure chaos and he loves every minute of it.
Kevin Dieny:So welcome, Nick!
Nick Packard:Hey, thanks for having me on.
Kevin Dieny:So we'll jump right into this.
Kevin Dieny:We'll go with what makes a marketing plan work well, or what makes a
Kevin Dieny:marketing plan fail for a business?
Kevin Dieny:Nick?
Nick Packard:I have five key factors is what I found when creating a marketing
Nick Packard:plan to make it actually work for you.
Nick Packard:And you know, the funny thing is it's the same exact marketing plan for
Nick Packard:every client I've ever had over the past 12 or 15, however many years
Nick Packard:it's been, since I've been doing this.
Nick Packard:The first key to it is understanding what your value is.
Nick Packard:And then how you share that or, here's why I exist.
Nick Packard:Here's the value I can bring to you.
Nick Packard:And then here's how I'm going to share it to you.
Nick Packard:I think that's the first point of any marketing plan.
Kevin Dieny:I also have Matt Widmyer with us.
Kevin Dieny:He's a colleague of mine.
Kevin Dieny:He's on our sales side.
Kevin Dieny:So when it comes to, the marketing plan of a business, how does
Kevin Dieny:that trickle over into, let's say the sales department, Matt?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah.
Matt Widmyer:I mean, I'm hopeful.
Matt Widmyer:It does trickle over on to the sales side, right?
Matt Widmyer:That means, that means the marketing is working.
Matt Widmyer:It's a lot of trial and error.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:The comradery between marketing and sales is super important.
Matt Widmyer:The hand holding, the expectation, no campaigns out of the blue, right.
Matt Widmyer:Communication, between the teams.
Matt Widmyer:I feel like a super, is like the secret ingredient for a successful,
Matt Widmyer:operation between sales and marketing.
Matt Widmyer:So I would just say, communication, collaboration...
Matt Widmyer:to sum it up.
Kevin Dieny:So Nick, you mentioned that there's a couple parts to what you're
Kevin Dieny:used to delivering in a marketing plan.
Kevin Dieny:And one of them was, you know, figuring out that value.
Kevin Dieny:And I look at that also, like how does that brand going to set themselves apart?
Kevin Dieny:Why is all that ultimately important?
Kevin Dieny:And what are some of those other points that you'd mentioned?
Nick Packard:Yeah.
Nick Packard:Yeah.
Nick Packard:That really comes down to the USP, that unique selling proposition.
Nick Packard:The big piece of the five pieces, I really talk about the marketing
Nick Packard:plan or like the, you know, knowing your value, why you exist, defining
Nick Packard:who your ideal clients are, and communicating to them in their language.
Nick Packard:Build a community around your organization is another one.
Nick Packard:Create a system that has some strategic and systematic results.
Nick Packard:And then walk your prospect through the first several parts of the sales process.
Nick Packard:Those are the main key points of any good marketing plan.
Nick Packard:And I would totally agree that, having sales interact with marketing to help
Nick Packard:create those is really important.
Nick Packard:For me in my business, I have a thing called a free digital
Nick Packard:assessment that I offer.
Nick Packard:And really what that's all about is my value is my knowledge in marketing.
Nick Packard:And in being able to help someone identify key areas they might be missing out on.
Nick Packard:So whether that be their website, their social media, their email
Nick Packard:marketing, whatever that may be, I offer a preview for free.
Nick Packard:Hey, you sign up for my website here.
Nick Packard:I'll give you a five page report.
Nick Packard:I'll spend about two to four hours on looking through all of your stuff and
Nick Packard:being like, hey, here's some areas that you probably haven't looked at.
Nick Packard:Like your SEO value is low here, you don't have a capture, your follow-up
Nick Packard:emails are this, your social media, you're only posting on holidays.
Nick Packard:I'll kind of call, call it out.
Nick Packard:And in a really good way, right.
Nick Packard:To say like, Hey, here's some really good missed opportunities and they will
Nick Packard:be like, holy cow, not only is this guy providing me with value, but now he's
Nick Packard:actually bringing me into his community.
Nick Packard:He's addressed that he understands where I'm coming from.
Nick Packard:So all those things fit into that first part of that.
Kevin Dieny:Gotcha.
Kevin Dieny:So the marketing plan that's going to help a business scale essentially
Kevin Dieny:is going to take what's parts of the business that are working and help
Kevin Dieny:them work at a higher efficiency.
Kevin Dieny:Taking some elements of the business that are not working like you've mentioned,
Kevin Dieny:and either remove them from the equation.
Kevin Dieny:So you can spend your resources better somewhere else.
Kevin Dieny:Or get them working actually.
Kevin Dieny:Right.
Kevin Dieny:So what exactly is the function of a marketing plan?
Kevin Dieny:If we go really simple, basic, like one-on-one on this, what is the
Kevin Dieny:essential functions of a marketing plan that is trying to do for the business?
Kevin Dieny:Nick?
Nick Packard:I think it really defines the goals of the company and what
Nick Packard:the result you're hoping to get is.
Nick Packard:Overall the marketing plan should say, Hey, I want to develop more leads.
Nick Packard:I want to have a better process.
Nick Packard:I want to know who my clients are better.
Nick Packard:I want to know what services I should be offering.
Nick Packard:So really just, it defines those really high level goals.
Kevin Dieny:And Matt, you mentioned the alignment part.
Kevin Dieny:So let's say the marketing plan is we want to generate leads, or sell this product,
Kevin Dieny:or get more engagement out of this group.
Kevin Dieny:From the sales side, it's like, well, that's nice.
Kevin Dieny:Is that aligned with what the sales team is trying to do?
Kevin Dieny:Right.
Kevin Dieny:So what are some of the pitfalls there if it's not well aligned?
Matt Widmyer:Well, yeah, I think I actually love your approach, Nick, with
Matt Widmyer:the essentially a diagnosis, right?
Matt Widmyer:You have this, you have them go through this Toyota 125 point
Matt Widmyer:inspection and then figure out, what are the areas that this business
Matt Widmyer:might potentially need to improve?
Matt Widmyer:From a sales side that makes our job very easy, because what you're
Matt Widmyer:doing is you're essentially saying, Hey, this is where I need help.
Matt Widmyer:And then we have the solutions, we're the product you know, the
Matt Widmyer:product experts on the sales side.
Matt Widmyer:So we're just coming in, um, saying, Hey, we have the solutions or services
Matt Widmyer:that can help fill those needs.
Matt Widmyer:We go back to what I was saying before the alignment is, is huge and marketing
Matt Widmyer:helped pave the way from that side.
Nick Packard:That's basically the loan calculator model, right?
Nick Packard:It's really simple, if you fill out the loan calculator for a car, for a house
Nick Packard:or whatever, it gives the loan agent, whoever, all the information they need.
Nick Packard:I know how much money there they have to spend.
Nick Packard:I know what their monthly income is.
Nick Packard:So you've already gone and done half the work.
Nick Packard:So again, part of the five point marketing plan, the last one was
Nick Packard:walk the prospects through the first several steps of the sales process.
Nick Packard:So that way the sales team gets a qualified lead because
Nick Packard:everyone has their job.
Nick Packard:Even like on a football team, the kicker has got a kick, the quarterback's got
Nick Packard:to throw, the running backs got to run, the wide receiver has got to catch.
Nick Packard:Right?
Nick Packard:Well, everyone has their job.
Nick Packard:And so marketing's job is to deliver quality leads to the sales team.
Nick Packard:And then the sales team's job is to close.
Nick Packard:And that's more than that obviously, to educate, to grow
Nick Packard:relationship and do all these things.
Nick Packard:So if you have those two working at a really high level, your conversion
Nick Packard:rates should be really high.
Kevin Dieny:That's always good to know, or to have that those metrics on hand too.
Kevin Dieny:And it leads me right to the next question.
Kevin Dieny:Right?
Kevin Dieny:So Nick, why measure the marketing plan?
Nick Packard:Man, it justifies my existence, right?
Nick Packard:That's everything, you know, marketing is all about testing and measuring.
Nick Packard:There's no silver bullet for anything.
Nick Packard:Things are always changing different channels, different
Nick Packard:customers, different groups.
Nick Packard:So you have to be able to track that.
Nick Packard:What am I spending?
Nick Packard:What are my impressions?
Nick Packard:Your funnel, of like how many people am I sending out to?
Nick Packard:How many people are interacting?
Nick Packard:How big is my audience growing?
Nick Packard:All those things funneled down into how many leads are we developing?
Nick Packard:And so if you're not addressing each area of that funnel and understanding
Nick Packard:the data each point, you're not going to do yourself as a marketer any favors.
Kevin Dieny:There's a few other things I was curious about when it comes
Kevin Dieny:to developing the marketing plan.
Kevin Dieny:So there's three things.
Kevin Dieny:The first one is how much should the businesses current resources be
Kevin Dieny:used to evaluate the marketing plan.
Kevin Dieny:Part number two is how much are we looking at the competition
Kevin Dieny:to develop our marketing plan?
Kevin Dieny:And the third part is how much are we looking at our consumers, our clients, our
Kevin Dieny:customers to develop that marketing plan.
Kevin Dieny:How much are we looking internally, externally?
Kevin Dieny:To develop this marketing plan.
Nick Packard:Externally should be the least amount of your worries, because
Nick Packard:really it's all about your unique selling proposition, your business, and
Nick Packard:your customers are a big part of that.
Nick Packard:So those would be my two biggest areas of focus.
Nick Packard:It really starts at the top with leadership.
Nick Packard:So overall though, the leadership, whether it be owner, whether it be a
Nick Packard:board or directors or whoever that may be.
Nick Packard:They should really set the tone to say like, Hey, here's
Nick Packard:what we need to accomplish.
Nick Packard:And we need to accomplish 10% growth or whatever.
Nick Packard:Okay, marketing, how are you going to do that?
Nick Packard:Then the marketing leadership can get strategic and be like, okay, let's create
Nick Packard:our our goals, and our goals is we're going to get a new website, we're going
Nick Packard:to do this, we're going to do that.
Nick Packard:Right.
Nick Packard:You're going to pick, pick your three things.
Nick Packard:And then what things are you going to do that are going to lead
Nick Packard:to that goal of a 10% increase?
Nick Packard:That part starts at the top.
Nick Packard:The customer sides are really, really important side because if you don't
Nick Packard:understand your customers well, you're not going to accomplish your goals.
Kevin Dieny:So then that leads me right to a perfect next question for
Kevin Dieny:you, Matt, how do you know that the goals, KPIs, metrics, the stuff that
Kevin Dieny:we're asked to do are realistic?
Matt Widmyer:Um,
Kevin Dieny:Matt, I want you to make a million dollars in sales.
Matt Widmyer:Yeah it is a little bit loaded, a little bit loaded question here.
Matt Widmyer:How is it realistic?
Matt Widmyer:We're going to have a plan going into it.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:And we're going to learn and, we're going to learn relatively quickly.
Matt Widmyer:It's a work in progress, so we're going to learn on the fly, but we are
Matt Widmyer:going to make tweaks and adjustments.
Matt Widmyer:And if it's still not working, then maybe something does need to
Matt Widmyer:change back in the marketing side.
Matt Widmyer:This is why this feedback loop is so important between marketing and sales.
Matt Widmyer:You don't really know truly, unless you actually start going through
Matt Widmyer:that, you know, the experience.
Matt Widmyer:That's why it's so important to have somebody own this quote unquote
Matt Widmyer:from the marketing side and from the sales side, just they can kind
Matt Widmyer:of collaborate, um, everything that they're learning along the way.
Nick Packard:Truth be told the sales, more than half the time,
Nick Packard:the sales team has all the ideas.
Nick Packard:They're the ones with the boots on the ground.
Nick Packard:They're the one talking to the customer.
Nick Packard:But if the marketing team doesn't engage them in the right way and test and measure
Nick Packard:some of the ideas, and some of the things that they have, it's not going to work.
Nick Packard:I can think of you know a couple of things off the top of my head
Nick Packard:of like, I would've never, ever thought of something like that.
Nick Packard:Had I not had that conversation with the sales team just to be
Nick Packard:like, Hey man, let's just have 15 minutes and just tell me your ideas.
Nick Packard:That to me is golden.
Nick Packard:If marketing isn't doing that, then that is a problem.
Kevin Dieny:Making sure that the marketing plan that we're going off of for
Kevin Dieny:the businesses plan, businesses goals...
Kevin Dieny:how flexible do they need to be?
Kevin Dieny:There is new information that we learn along the way that may
Kevin Dieny:require us to change or pivot.
Kevin Dieny:How set are we on that original marketing plan, let's say we made, six months ago?
Kevin Dieny:Should we constantly be changing and starting over again?
Nick Packard:I think goals are important that they should be set realistically,
Nick Packard:so that way you can achieve them.
Nick Packard:But I do think along the way, You're going to find other things that have
Nick Packard:to get done to either accomplish those goals, or that would be a good thing
Nick Packard:to do in addition to those goals.
Nick Packard:And so I think it does happen, but overall, I think if you're not holding
Nick Packard:yourself accountable to like, Hey, we agreed to this at the beginning of the
Nick Packard:quarter or the beginning of the year, like we're going to get this done.
Nick Packard:We're going to see it through.
Nick Packard:I think it's a really important part of any organizational structure.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:The other thing I was thinking about, what's required to accomplish this?
Kevin Dieny:Not necessarily, we need this many more sales or this many more leads.
Kevin Dieny:What's the work required?
Kevin Dieny:So for a website, what's the work required to build this.
Kevin Dieny:Okay, this is fairly substantial.
Kevin Dieny:We don't have any developer.
Kevin Dieny:We don't have anyone who even knows what they're doing with the website, but we
Kevin Dieny:say, we, we actually do have a lot of good people who can write emails and stuff.
Kevin Dieny:So it becomes sort of like, well, in my business, it may make more sense to
Kevin Dieny:emphasize one channel or another, just because I happen to have people who
Kevin Dieny:are more familiar with this or that.
Kevin Dieny:But at the same time, it's like, should we go outside the business because
Kevin Dieny:we don't have that stuff here because how important is it to have this
Kevin Dieny:thing we don't have expertise for?
Kevin Dieny:You know?
Kevin Dieny:So thats that's a little bit also complicated about a market plan.
Kevin Dieny:Yes.
Kevin Dieny:We want to accomplish this.
Kevin Dieny:This seems like the best way to do it, but we don't have the resources internally.
Kevin Dieny:Should we go outside?
Nick Packard:That's why I have a job.
Nick Packard:No, that's a great point though, because most companies, especially, you know,
Nick Packard:I work with a lot of smaller, medium sized businesses who may have a one or
Nick Packard:two person marketing department that they're really good at admin stuff.
Nick Packard:They're really good at certain things, but not everything.
Nick Packard:And so then it's really up to leadership to say, We have to
Nick Packard:bring in resources for this.
Nick Packard:And what I've found to be honest, is that not only does it help them get where
Nick Packard:they want to go, but it also strengthens our team because you're bringing in new,
Nick Packard:outside knowledge to the existing team.
Nick Packard:And it helps them like, again, depending on the resource, right?
Nick Packard:Like certain agencies will just hand box deliver you something.
Nick Packard:My job is in consultants or whatever you want to call me or fractional CMOs.
Nick Packard:Our job is to create the processes and the knowledge internally.
Nick Packard:So that way they can survive without you.
Nick Packard:I've worked myself out of the job.
Nick Packard:And I think that's a really valuable piece to keep in mind when companies do consider
Nick Packard:outsourcing, is that does this fill a need or does it help the company grow?
Nick Packard:And I think those two questions will really help you determine what
Nick Packard:is the best fit, you know, for a solution like a website or social
Nick Packard:media or whatever that may be.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah, that's really, really, it's really good.
Kevin Dieny:And yeah.
Kevin Dieny:Uh, there's a lot of channels.
Kevin Dieny:And then some businesses are, some leaders are more like, look, you
Kevin Dieny:know, I think that this channel worked work for me, but I don't know.
Kevin Dieny:I haven't been keeping up with trends.
Kevin Dieny:I haven't been keeping up with the market very well.
Kevin Dieny:So I'm just going to keep doing what I, what I know, but
Kevin Dieny:is what I know all there is.
Kevin Dieny:That's sort of where it comes down to.
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:What is it worth to find out, you know, to, to see if
Kevin Dieny:there is more potential here?
Kevin Dieny:Because we're talking about scaling, we're not necessarily
Kevin Dieny:talking about, just pulling one or two fish out of the sea here.
Kevin Dieny:We're talking about, can we tap into a well, that will provide us not
Kevin Dieny:necessarily unbounded, but a lot of scale, a lot of opportunities there to
Kevin Dieny:move the business in that direction.
Nick Packard:Well, I think you brought up a really interesting point there.
Nick Packard:Is that most owners or leaders may not have a complete understanding of, of
Nick Packard:where their business is at because maybe they started it 5 or 10 years ago and
Nick Packard:they knew it really well then, but now they've taken a step outside of the
Nick Packard:business in a different role, right.
Nick Packard:An important role, but different role.
Nick Packard:One thing that I provide and I think is really important is I do a document called
Nick Packard:a target client profile and messaging.
Nick Packard:And so what it really does is it creates a written Bible of sorts that talks about
Nick Packard:you as a company, your why statement.
Nick Packard:That I'm a big Simon Sinek guy.
Nick Packard:So it's like, why do you get out of bed every morning?
Nick Packard:Why are you unique?
Nick Packard:And then it's like, how, and, what do you sell it?
Nick Packard:And how are you different?
Nick Packard:How you differentiate yourself, then it goes into identifying
Nick Packard:your buckets of customers.
Nick Packard:There's different groups you can put your ideal prospects into that.
Nick Packard:What do they have in common?
Nick Packard:What are their challenges?
Nick Packard:What motivates them to want to work as you?
Nick Packard:What are the key messages for them?
Nick Packard:If you break things down that way, you have a documented.
Nick Packard:So now not only do you have a training tool for new employees?
Nick Packard:But now every time you want to start a marketing campaign or a sales campaign
Nick Packard:or anything, you know, have like, here's everything we need to know.
Nick Packard:So I know that their challenges are this let's make a sales campaign
Nick Packard:to address these challenges.
Nick Packard:Let's do an ad campaign to motivate them because now I know
Nick Packard:what motivates these people.
Nick Packard:It literally is, becomes your Bible and becomes a written, documented
Nick Packard:piece of, of your company that you can now, now share and use.
Nick Packard:And everyone's on the same page.
Kevin Dieny:That's really cool.
Kevin Dieny:I love the documentation factor.
Kevin Dieny:I'm a big visual person.
Kevin Dieny:So we use tools for that.
Kevin Dieny:We've also covered our whiteboards.
Kevin Dieny:We have hundreds, documented, written on.
Kevin Dieny:An ideation stage level of like, okay, could this work this way?
Kevin Dieny:Could this work that way?
Kevin Dieny:And that leads me to the next question I have.
Kevin Dieny:And this one, I'm gonna throw it to you Matt.
Kevin Dieny:How far should the marketing plan go?
Kevin Dieny:Should marketing stay in its swim lane.
Kevin Dieny:And, and as soon as marketing, hands it off their done.
Kevin Dieny:Or should the marketing plan include what's going beyond marketing's hands?
Matt Widmyer:You should know Kevin.
Matt Widmyer:Marketing's never done
Kevin Dieny:Marketing's in everything?
Matt Widmyer:Nick too.
Matt Widmyer:I mean, four girls?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah, marketing never ends.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:Uh, no, I mean, I think a lot of that depends on the bandwidth
Matt Widmyer:of your business, right?
Matt Widmyer:So if you have one sales rep at your company, then yeah.
Matt Widmyer:Marketing is going to be probably, we're probably going to rely a little
Matt Widmyer:bit more on marketing to take it a little bit further down the funnel.
Matt Widmyer:If the bandwidth justifies, if you have a sales team of, 10, 20 reps,
Matt Widmyer:we can do a little bit more work on our side to the discovery of things.
Matt Widmyer:It's mixing quality with quantity.
Matt Widmyer:You're not going to get as many, but, the further down the funnel you get, you're
Matt Widmyer:not going to get as many solid leads.
Matt Widmyer:I think that what you're asking is really dependent on the
Matt Widmyer:bandwidth of the sales team.
Matt Widmyer:So if you're, you know, whether you're working with one or 20 or 50.
Matt Widmyer:If you really have that many reps, you're basically just relying on marketing
Matt Widmyer:just to help differentiate between suspects, names on the list to, you know,
Matt Widmyer:people who were, are real basically, and, breathing and doing something.
Matt Widmyer:So, uh, yeah, it's just, you know, again, super dependent on the, on
Matt Widmyer:the bandwidth of the sales team.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah, that's really interesting.
Kevin Dieny:And so let's say the question is, what about a marketing plan
Kevin Dieny:helps a business scale, Nick?
Kevin Dieny:What is it about it that's going to help a business actually do
Kevin Dieny:the scaling, why would a marketing plan help that business scale?
Nick Packard:I think to make it work is just accountability.
Nick Packard:That's the biggest piece of it is that like, don't just...
Nick Packard:talk about it, be about it, by saying all the things.
Nick Packard:If you don't do those things and it's not going to work, or if you don't
Nick Packard:do anything, right, like just having meetings for meetings sake is not really
Nick Packard:a good thing, but to actually make an actionable plan with accountability.
Nick Packard:That's really how you make it scalable.
Nick Packard:That's really how you make it work.
Nick Packard:And that's how you can engage those effective or not because, let's face
Nick Packard:it not all of our ideas, whether it be from marketing, sales, or
Nick Packard:leadership, all these ideas are great.
Nick Packard:They might have unrealistic expectations.
Nick Packard:You don't know if it's possible, unless you do something about it.
Nick Packard:And so by being actionable, you can figure out how would you know, if it's
Nick Packard:working and how you can go from there.
Kevin Dieny:So when you say accountable, are, are you talking about a team,
Kevin Dieny:a person, a department owns the components of that businesses plan
Kevin Dieny:and are responsible for achieving the goals with the available resources they
Kevin Dieny:have that's where my head's going...
Kevin Dieny:Is that what you're talking about?
Nick Packard:Yeah.
Nick Packard:I mean, totally because we all make money from somewhere.
Nick Packard:Right.
Nick Packard:And so we all have to be accountable to make that money.
Nick Packard:And we're all responsible for that.
Nick Packard:From a marketing leader standpoint, do they have the right team internal
Nick Packard:or external to get the things done?
Nick Packard:And if they don't, are they doing a good job of communicating to leadership
Nick Packard:to say, Hey, this is the goal, but I can't get there with what I have.
Nick Packard:It's not that you have to get it done without any help or any assistance.
Nick Packard:It's just being able to openly communicate, Hey,
Nick Packard:this is what I'm capable of.
Nick Packard:This is what we're capable of.
Nick Packard:Can we actually accomplish it and then, you know, doing it?
Nick Packard:So, yeah.
Kevin Dieny:Gotcha.
Kevin Dieny:And that's when the business goal that goes from this is, would be
Kevin Dieny:nice, a pipe dream to reality.
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:This is like the actual next step.
Kevin Dieny:We're going to take, I'm actually going to come in and I'm going to do this
Kevin Dieny:thing, or I'm going to accomplish these tasks that I have, and those tasks lead
Kevin Dieny:up to accomplishing the overall goal.
Kevin Dieny:How much of an onus does that put on the teams?
Kevin Dieny:Right?
Kevin Dieny:Like making sure you have the right people in your teams to accomplish these things,
Kevin Dieny:how does that become really important?
Kevin Dieny:Or is it okay that sometimes it takes a little longer, cause we
Kevin Dieny:have to get people up to speed?
Nick Packard:No, and that's the importance of setting deadlines.
Nick Packard:And so I like to work with 90 day goals with, with clients.
Nick Packard:I actually do business coaching as well as a fractional CMO.
Nick Packard:And 90 days is a reasonable amount of time to get something accomplished but
Nick Packard:you have to set the reasonable goals.
Nick Packard:And it's really not about if you have the team internally or not.
Nick Packard:It's it's.
Nick Packard:Do you have the resources within your community, even if you don't
Nick Packard:have them in trying to get them done?
Nick Packard:Excuses are like a-holes or everyone's got one, they all smell
Nick Packard:like, you know, whatever it is.
Nick Packard:Right.
Nick Packard:So that's like the saying.
Nick Packard:And so it's like it's, to me, it's like, if you're going to make a 90 day goal,
Nick Packard:make it realistic and then get the job done with whatever you need to get done.
Nick Packard:So if you need to have extra resources from here, if you need to do whatever,
Nick Packard:make it work, you have, you've got to work to accomplish that goal because
Nick Packard:that's what your word, that's what you said and that's what you have to do.
Nick Packard:And so that's the kind of accountability and the kind of mindset that I have
Nick Packard:when it comes to goal setting with the client is like, Hey, if we're going
Nick Packard:to do this, we're going to do this.
Nick Packard:Come hell or high water, or whatever that phrase is, we're going to get it done.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:So what's the difference between just simple goal setting and
Kevin Dieny:building a marketing plan then?
Nick Packard:Um, I think the plan helps accomplish the goals, right?
Nick Packard:So it's like I'm setting a goal of increasing revenue by 10%.
Nick Packard:And then I have these five things, my marketing plan that I'm going
Nick Packard:to do to achieve that goal.
Nick Packard:And then those five things are going to break down.
Nick Packard:I actually break make a strategy on a PowerPoint
Nick Packard:documents really, really simple.
Nick Packard:So I, I have my goals listed and I have, why is this a goal?
Nick Packard:And then what are the things that I need to do to achieve each goal?
Nick Packard:Like for building a website.
Nick Packard:I have to write content.
Nick Packard:I have to create a site map.
Nick Packard:I have to do all these things.
Nick Packard:And then how do you measure each one?
Nick Packard:Okay, I'm going to measure this by like how many impressions, how many
Nick Packard:ads, how many pages he was telling me this, or, or whatever the things are.
Nick Packard:Right?
Nick Packard:So it's like you create a very easy step-by-step plan and break things down.
Nick Packard:Okay.
Nick Packard:If my goal is this what five or 10 or however many things do I need
Nick Packard:to do to actually accomplish that.
Nick Packard:Now I have created tasks that I can assign to myself or to other team
Nick Packard:members or to outside resources to make sure that everything gets done
Nick Packard:in that, for that goal or that task.
Kevin Dieny:That's awesome.
Kevin Dieny:So, Matt, you do this a lot where you take a larger goal.
Kevin Dieny:Let's say this is a six month, year long goal, and you break it down
Kevin Dieny:into, like Nick said, a 90 day, a quarter or a monthly or weekly.
Kevin Dieny:So why do you do that?
Matt Widmyer:We do it to learn and see what works.
Matt Widmyer:We have initiatives that we work on and stuff like that, as well as all the things
Matt Widmyer:that have came from marketing in the past.
Matt Widmyer:We do it for the sake of learning and always getting continuing
Matt Widmyer:to get better at what we do.
Matt Widmyer:We never, it's never set and forget like, okay, we found the right approach.
Matt Widmyer:Let's just use this from here on out.
Matt Widmyer:No, cause people, you know, things change people evolve, new business needs arise.
Matt Widmyer:So we're always trying to kind of like, you know, put feelers out there.
Matt Widmyer:Kind of see what else could we, can we uncover under the, even if it's
Matt Widmyer:the same group of people, right.
Matt Widmyer:A different talk track might make a big difference.
Matt Widmyer:So it just really depends on where they're at.
Matt Widmyer:Maybe a new tech, becomes a relevant thing within some of the groups
Matt Widmyer:you're calling and stuff like that.
Matt Widmyer:You can never know enough about a prospect and a marketing does uncover quite a
Matt Widmyer:bit, but I don't think, anything that can help assist a sale in one of the
Matt Widmyer:services or solutions you provide is, definitely something that we want to know.
Matt Widmyer:And we want to be able to document it somewhere in a field or something
Matt Widmyer:like that, just so we can, we can have that at our disposal and make,
Matt Widmyer:have higher quality conversations.
Kevin Dieny:Gotcha.
Kevin Dieny:So the Nick, how do you as a business leader?
Kevin Dieny:I think one of the most common painful questions is how will
Kevin Dieny:I know that this will work?
Kevin Dieny:What do you say to that?
Nick Packard:Uh, you know, I go back to KPIs on that.
Nick Packard:I just say, if we set our goal for, we're going to have this many
Nick Packard:impressions as many, you know, whatever the metric is that we're
Nick Packard:measuring against, that's our goal.
Nick Packard:I tell him the same thing though.
Nick Packard:Our goal is to make it work, but what's going to happen is we're
Nick Packard:going to learn something either way.
Nick Packard:We're going to learn if it, if it works or not, I've had things that
Nick Packard:have completely failed, but what we've got is some learnings from it.
Nick Packard:Like we know that this audience with this amount of money, why
Nick Packard:these platforms doesn't work now.
Nick Packard:So we know not to do that again.
Nick Packard:And it's an expensive lesson, but now that you know, and so now that you,
Nick Packard:you know, you can kind of adjust your marketing to do different things.
Nick Packard:It's really easy to say, we can have metrics or things
Nick Packard:that we can, we can shoot for.
Nick Packard:But at the end of the day, our goal in marketing is to test and learn.
Nick Packard:That that is really what it comes down to.
Kevin Dieny:And I think that's sort of a, a side pitch for external help.
Kevin Dieny:Right?
Kevin Dieny:I know when I was at an agency, it was like, well, you could learn this yourself.
Kevin Dieny:You could bring on your own team.
Kevin Dieny:You could spend a year, maybe two, whatever it takes, or, you know, if you
Kevin Dieny:spend a lot of money to learn faster, to figure out things that we have spent
Kevin Dieny:the last 10 years, kind of perfecting.
Kevin Dieny:So we'll accelerate your learning sort of like, maybe not, we're
Kevin Dieny:trying to educate you along the way, but we're going to accelerate your
Kevin Dieny:marketing pretty far down the line.
Kevin Dieny:And that was a pretty strong case for why an external agency
Kevin Dieny:or something would come in.
Kevin Dieny:Like at the time us would come in and support a business.
Kevin Dieny:That was a big deal.
Kevin Dieny:That was a big selling point for us is we have hundreds of years of, you
Kevin Dieny:know, if you were to take it out at all, you know, worth of experience.
Kevin Dieny:So how.
Kevin Dieny:How does the business interpret that and be like, well, why
Kevin Dieny:don't I just go full external?
Kevin Dieny:Why would I ever want to put internal team members that aren't going to learn as fast
Kevin Dieny:and aren't going to be exposed to as much.
Kevin Dieny:So I've seen both of those and I've seen it clash a lot within, you
Kevin Dieny:know, internal versus external teams.
Nick Packard:Yeah, and I think it's really how you want to look at it.
Nick Packard:You know, a lot of companies now are trying to find ways to retain
Nick Packard:talent because you know, finding work right now is really hard.
Nick Packard:And so to be like, Hey, we're going to bring in an extra,
Nick Packard:it's a selling point to them.
Nick Packard:Might be, Hey, we're going to bring an external resources to help make you
Nick Packard:better and more efficient your job, which is going to lead to more career
Nick Packard:opportunities for you, both within the company and you as a professional.
Nick Packard:Or the other option is, Hey, we don't have a budget for this.
Nick Packard:So we're going to go external a hundred percent of the time because we're going
Nick Packard:to save on employee costs or this, that, it really just depends on the
Nick Packard:vision of, of the company leadership and where they want to go with it.
Nick Packard:You know, like to me, there's, there's a case for both of those.
Nick Packard:I, and I have clients that are that way too where, so, I am literally
Nick Packard:their only marketing department.
Nick Packard:I am the one person I'm outsourced completely.
Nick Packard:I worked 40 hours a month for them and that's it.
Nick Packard:And I have others where I work 60 hours a month and they have a whole
Nick Packard:team and I'm training their team.
Nick Packard:And then three months from now, they will just have my name on old email signatures.
Nick Packard:And that's the only thing they'll know of me.
Nick Packard:So it really just depends, you know,
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:So, Matt, do you think, uh, does a business marketing plan, do you think
Kevin Dieny:only work for businesses that are larger or can a marketing plan work
Kevin Dieny:for, you know, small companies or is it essential for companies of any size?
Kevin Dieny:Do you have any thoughts on that?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah, marketing.
Matt Widmyer:I mean, having been on the marketing side myself, I, it is an essential function.
Matt Widmyer:I'm not just saying that because you guys are here, but it, but it's uh no,
Matt Widmyer:it's a necessary component because what marketing does is it takes the great,
Matt Widmyer:as Nick said, you know, salespeople do come up with a lot of these ideas.
Matt Widmyer:Marketing has a great way of, uh, they're doing it right.
Matt Widmyer:It has a great way of organizing these ideas and actionable plans.
Matt Widmyer:That seems to be a weakness across the board for a lot of sales leaders,
Matt Widmyer:because they'll have a dream one night, where hey, we should, we
Matt Widmyer:should do this this way or whatever.
Matt Widmyer:And then marketing marketing is typically the team that
Matt Widmyer:puts those ideas to fruition.
Matt Widmyer:So, yeah.
Matt Widmyer:It's, it's all sizes though.
Matt Widmyer:It's not just, I wouldn't just limit it and that's maybe the image that some
Matt Widmyer:people have that, like these gigantic only, you know, marketing departments only
Matt Widmyer:available in these gigantic companies.
Matt Widmyer:It's like, no, I mean, it's just depends on what degree you
Matt Widmyer:want to do marketing, right.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:So that brings me to the next question Nick.
Kevin Dieny:So how do you, and you've got to come up against this because I feel like
Kevin Dieny:I've never not come up against this.
Kevin Dieny:And that is the word marketing is almost synonymous with spending money.
Kevin Dieny:Why should a business care about making a marketing plan when to some
Kevin Dieny:businesses, the marketing plan just is going to mean spend, spend, spend?
Nick Packard:That's what all marketing should be looked at is investment.
Nick Packard:You're going to spend money to make money and that's literally the, if you don't
Nick Packard:look at marketing that way, you don't know what marketing is, to be honest with you.
Nick Packard:Literally your investing in developing leads and developing your brand
Nick Packard:and developing all these things.
Nick Packard:And it's an investment.
Nick Packard:And if you aren't seeing a return on that investment, then you're making
Nick Packard:poor investments into your company.
Nick Packard:and then it's figuring out what better ways you can invest in marketing.
Nick Packard:And that is the honest truth and I don't sugar coat anything.
Nick Packard:When I hold a seminar, I usually have a thing where the first
Nick Packard:question I ask in the group is can I borrow 20 bucks from someone?
Nick Packard:And I'll ask for cash.
Nick Packard:And then the first person to give me 20 bucks, I'd take that.
Nick Packard:And I give them 50 bucks right back out of my other pocket.
Nick Packard:And I say, that is marketing.
Nick Packard:There is a belief that I'm doing something that's really worth it.
Nick Packard:And I'm getting something in return.
Nick Packard:And I am believing that this is investment is the right thing for me to do.
Nick Packard:And if you don't have that belief, if you don't have that, that mindset
Nick Packard:of, of marketing as investment, it's not a good thing for you.
Kevin Dieny:So part of marketing is the effort generating content, ads,
Kevin Dieny:demand, putting in the time and effort.
Kevin Dieny:The other part is making sure that those efforts are efficient and
Kevin Dieny:that oftentimes comes down to tools.
Kevin Dieny:Like, I don't know how I would do email automation at all without a tool.
Kevin Dieny:That would be crazy, trying to make sure I email the right people
Kevin Dieny:the right times out of an outlook or something that seems insane.
Kevin Dieny:So that's why those tools exist.
Kevin Dieny:So how important is the stack?
Kevin Dieny:The marketing stack, in keeping the marketing plan on track?
Nick Packard:Yeah.
Nick Packard:I mean, because most of those, the truth is that technology solutions, whether
Nick Packard:it be software for email or your website or forms or anything like that is going
Nick Packard:to make your business so much more efficient, it's going to track things.
Nick Packard:That's going to do things, automate things that normally
Nick Packard:team members would have to do.
Nick Packard:You can customize things.
Nick Packard:I mean, that is really the lifeblood of marketing is technology.
Nick Packard:Ideas are great, but you know, just like Matt was saying
Nick Packard:too, they have to be executed.
Nick Packard:They have to have, ideas are one thing, but to execute them is another, you know?
Nick Packard:And so technology helps you do all those things and helps
Nick Packard:you track it automatically.
Nick Packard:So it saves a ton of man hours.
Nick Packard:It's, it's, it's a necessary thing.
Kevin Dieny:We like live and breathe by that as a company that
Kevin Dieny:produces a lot of tools and the aspect of what we do is look, you
Kevin Dieny:can listen to the calls yourself.
Kevin Dieny:You can listen to 200 calls.
Kevin Dieny:You could go ahead and do that.
Kevin Dieny:But we know how painful that is, and wouldn't you rather be doing what
Kevin Dieny:you're normally want to be doing in your business, managing, hiring?
Kevin Dieny:So that's exactly one of our bullet points of our value, right?
Kevin Dieny:You could do this yourself.
Kevin Dieny:Sure, but if you let us do it, you know, we're going to do it for way cheaper
Kevin Dieny:than the hourly and the things that you're doing and allows you to go back to
Kevin Dieny:doing what you do best in your business.
Kevin Dieny:That's usually one of our critical points of why our tool fits into a business.
Kevin Dieny:But it doesn't fit into a business that has one call, you know, like that
Kevin Dieny:person could listen to the one call.
Kevin Dieny:So when we're talking about scaling a business, we're really talking about,
Kevin Dieny:we're pushing things past the limit.
Kevin Dieny:Of when they're still going to be micromanaged one by one at a
Kevin Dieny:time, like we're just going to put out one social post one email.
Kevin Dieny:When we're talking about scaling, we're often in marketing talking
Kevin Dieny:about pushing the limits and allowing automation, allowing these tools, and
Kevin Dieny:other efficiencies of scale to come into play so that you're not just
Kevin Dieny:sending one email, you're sending thousands, hundreds of thousands.
Kevin Dieny:You know, calling one, you're calling tens of thousands.
Kevin Dieny:So by moving things into that larger scale, you're going from, okay,
Kevin Dieny:I'm getting this many sales to tons more because you're now operating
Kevin Dieny:in a totally new sphere of scale.
Kevin Dieny:And that is I think, a big deal where still where technology comes in.
Kevin Dieny:But it only fits in when it, matters when it's part of the plan.
Kevin Dieny:Cause if I generate 5,000 leads tomorrow for Matt's team, he's going to be drowning
Kevin Dieny:and he won't be able to work all of those.
Kevin Dieny:It'll be a total waste of the money we spend in marketing
Kevin Dieny:and they have to be aligned.
Kevin Dieny:It has to make sense.
Kevin Dieny:And so when we say scale too, I think it's also important.
Kevin Dieny:And you can talk about this Nick, to scale a business up incrementally.
Kevin Dieny:And, and by that, I mean, like you ratchet up the scale in a way that is manageable.
Kevin Dieny:So if marketing is going to scale, you know, 2X to tomorrow, can the
Kevin Dieny:rest of the business support that.
Nick Packard:Exactly.
Nick Packard:Yeah.
Nick Packard:Well, so I have a lot of staffing clients actually, which, which is really funny.
Nick Packard:I don't know how that happened, but, and they have that same issue with like, you
Nick Packard:know, if too much marketing is spent on the client side of the business versus
Nick Packard:the candidate side of the business, then all of a sudden like, oh crap.
Nick Packard:Now I've got 50 job orders to fill and I have no candidates to fill it with.
Nick Packard:Right.
Nick Packard:And then vice versa.
Nick Packard:I have all these candidates and no jobs, and now they're going to hate us.
Nick Packard:It's always that balancing act with anything like that.
Nick Packard:So it is, especially within the company, from a production side, I work with a
Nick Packard:lot of eCommerce brands where Hey, if our marketing does really well and we create a
Nick Packard:really big demand for it, all of a sudden the production people are being pissed at
Nick Packard:us because now they're working overtime and this and that to try to figure out how
Nick Packard:they can keep up with, with production.
Nick Packard:And then the customer service team getting more calls.
Nick Packard:I mean, everything affects every other part of the business.
Nick Packard:It all works together.
Nick Packard:And so if you don't think about that as a, from a 360 view of everything, it's gonna.
Nick Packard:You're going to cause more pain than, than, you know, than anything.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:So Matt, it seems like it's really important to keep things fairly simple.
Kevin Dieny:Like, these are the couple KPIs I have.
Kevin Dieny:Not a thousand, not a hundred things that I feel like if I do this one, I'm
Kevin Dieny:going to slow down on the other one.
Kevin Dieny:So how important is not just realistic goals, but like simple, easy to see
Kevin Dieny:how you impact the goal, type of goals?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah.
Matt Widmyer:I mean, I think you have to look at what, you know, what's what
Matt Widmyer:are the expectations of the teams.
Matt Widmyer:Before you generate any leads, what kind of system is it falling into?
Matt Widmyer:It should be one question that marketers are asking, right.
Matt Widmyer:Because if you're, if everything gets called once and then if they don't pick up
Matt Widmyer:then, okay, that's that one's game over.
Matt Widmyer:No, like you, you want to have some kind of a follow-up
Matt Widmyer:protocol or something like that.
Matt Widmyer:So I think to be able to scale, you need to keep the KPIs simple.
Matt Widmyer:Just because you measure something doesn't mean it's useful for whatever
Matt Widmyer:it is that we're measuring here.
Matt Widmyer:You just keep it simple, how many leads were generated?
Matt Widmyer:How many people did you try reaching out to?
Matt Widmyer:How many people do you actually connect with and then go, you know,
Matt Widmyer:further down the sales process.
Matt Widmyer:Like how many, how many appointments did you set?
Matt Widmyer:And And.
Matt Widmyer:You know, hopefully you close some deals on that and how many was it?
Matt Widmyer:So I would just keep them think about all the milestones along the way, like what
Matt Widmyer:has to happen for this to move forward and where everything lies in the milestone.
Matt Widmyer:And then once you start to see, compare where things are at with that campaign or
Matt Widmyer:initiative, and then compare it with some historicals, you'll be able to uncover,
Matt Widmyer:one or two things like, okay, this is, this is where these are falling off.
Matt Widmyer:This is what we can do about it.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:So marketing is typically coming back.
Matt Widmyer:I guess if you're doing it right, or if you're having, a valuable conversation
Matt Widmyer:with sales, you'll come to the table with a couple of recommendations.
Matt Widmyer:Cause you guys are probably measuring it a little bit better
Matt Widmyer:than the sales team is, right?
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:So then this this is a good point for concluding things and
Kevin Dieny:wrapping it up a little bit.
Kevin Dieny:So, Matt, did you have anything that you heard before we, you know, go
Kevin Dieny:down that finish line there that you wanted to add or, or bring up
Kevin Dieny:before we get to the close here?
Matt Widmyer:My just in my closing argument here is like, you can only really
Matt Widmyer:scale by learning as we, as we talked about and learning is, if you set up a
Matt Widmyer:forum for accountability, whether it's just one stakeholder on sales side, one
Matt Widmyer:stakeholder in the marketing side, or a schedule meeting or whatever form, it,
Matt Widmyer:it just needs to be a valuable thing.
Matt Widmyer:I've been in a lot of these meetings where we're just playing accountability, hot
Matt Widmyer:potato, and it's going get passed back and forth between sales and marketing.
Matt Widmyer:Hey, your, these leads suck.
Matt Widmyer:No, your salespeople suck.
Matt Widmyer:And I'm sitting there in the middle of everything and it's like, no, let's just,
Matt Widmyer:it might not be our, our fault, but it is everybody's problem in that room.
Matt Widmyer:There was something that happened and everyone at that, in all the stakeholders
Matt Widmyer:need to own what happens and then be able to work together to improve it and,
Matt Widmyer:set all the little differences aside like this guy waste my time or your
Matt Widmyer:follow-up process sucks or whatever.
Matt Widmyer:Need to all get on the same page.
Matt Widmyer:I think that, you know, Kevin, I feel like we've, we've been chipping
Matt Widmyer:away at that for, for years.
Matt Widmyer:And I feel like we've made some pretty good headway.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah, you're talking about a really good organizational process of
Kevin Dieny:meetings and follow up and making sure that marketing plan is still in alignment.
Kevin Dieny:Is what tracking the progress and where it's at, knowing where
Kevin Dieny:we may need to move resources or change things or adapt the plan.
Kevin Dieny:Like I think you're talking about the progress meetings, the organizational
Kevin Dieny:component of how, how we're keeping the marketing plan alive.
Kevin Dieny:Not necessarily like, oh, we came up with it in January.
Kevin Dieny:We haven't even looked back at it and you know, 10 months, that's
Kevin Dieny:probably not necessarily like a living, breathing, marketing plan.
Kevin Dieny:So Nick, is there anything else you wanted to add that we missed or
Kevin Dieny:anything else you wanted to add to this?
Nick Packard:You know, for me a big takeaway, the two main things
Nick Packard:with any client or anyone I work with is leadership and mindset.
Nick Packard:If you have the right leaders in place that enables teams to do
Nick Packard:their jobs and to hold themselves accountable and to do all the things.
Nick Packard:And then just having the mindset of like, Hey, like we're all in this together.
Nick Packard:Like we're supporting each other, working together, never losing sight of that.
Nick Packard:Those are really two important factors that, I look at when that when I
Nick Packard:work with someone and to make sure there's a successful relationship.
Kevin Dieny:That's great.
Kevin Dieny:So we believe that if you put together a marketing plan, it's not just going to
Kevin Dieny:lead to just spending money, worthlessly.
Kevin Dieny:A marketing plan is going to help you really plan, document your goals,
Kevin Dieny:and break them down into objectives.
Kevin Dieny:Break them down into monthly, quarterly, however you want to digest
Kevin Dieny:it so that you can ahead of time, know if something's on track or not.
Kevin Dieny:And that you can make sure that these things aren't just pipe
Kevin Dieny:dreams, that they will be real.
Kevin Dieny:You'll be able to see that this marketing plan is going to help my business
Kevin Dieny:achieve a scale, a new place that will help us grow in a scalable way.
Kevin Dieny:Thanks everybody for listening to this, Nick, how can our listeners follow up
Kevin Dieny:with you, learn more about you, you know, everything that you're doing
Kevin Dieny:and everything that you're about?
Nick Packard:Yeah, just my website on Nickpackard.com, I've got a lot
Nick Packard:of stuff on there, both my coaching business and the fractional CMO business.
Nick Packard:I actually have a lot of free tools we talked about today.
Nick Packard:So the marketing plan is listed on there.
Nick Packard:I have some free templates that you can download from there.
Nick Packard:Because again, marketing is all about sharing your value and then
Nick Packard:bringing people in your community.
Nick Packard:Right?
Nick Packard:So just Nickpackard.com where you can find all the info you need.
Kevin Dieny:That's awesome.
Kevin Dieny:Thank you Nick, for coming on and being our guest today, it's been fantastic.
Nick Packard:Yeah, thank you guys so much.
Matt Widmyer:Thanks Nick.
