In this episode of The Burnout Files, host John Glover sits down with Danny Campbell, founder of Hoko Design, architect, and judge on BBC Scotland's Home of the Year.

Danny started Hoko because he became obsessed with one idea: that home is where the most important moments of your life happen, and architects have been ignoring the people who live in them.

He launched the practice before he was fully qualified, no safety net, just a clear purpose and a strategic first hire. That obsession turned into a business. But the journey nearly broke him.

This conversation goes to places most founder stories don't. Danny talks candidly about the employment tribunal he nearly didn't survive, the contractor who walked off multiple sites at once and left Hoko holding the financial wreckage, and a regulatory hearing that threatened to end his career publicly: all while his brother was dying.

He "cried every day on the way to work and every day on the way home". And he kept going.

Danny opens up about the mental health crisis running through the architecture profession, the third most likely to die by suicide, and why the industry's culture of silence makes it worse.

He talks about ego, about stripping materialism out of his life, about why he wears Crocs to every meeting. And he shares what his brother taught him about facing the worst with grace.

If you've ever wondered what's really happening behind a founder who looks like they have it together: this one's for you.

Subscribe for more honest conversations about the real cost of building a business.

ABOUT THE BURNOUT FILES

The Burnout Files is hosted by John Glover. Every episode explores the side of entrepreneurship that doesn't make the highlight reel: the setbacks, the sacrifices, and the very human stories behind building something from nothing.

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ABOUT DANNY CAMPBELL

Danny Campbell is the founder of Hoko Design, an architecture and design practice based in Scotland focused on helping homeowners create spaces that actually mean something. He is also a judge on BBC Scotland's Home of the Year.

He launched the business at 25 before completing his qualifications, and has spent the years since learning the hard way what it takes to build something that lasts.

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I'm here with Danny Campbell, founder of Hoko Design, entrepreneur and architect. And this is the Burnout Files. To start, we're going to talk about Danny's childhood. And it's going to get very deep.

Straight in at the deep end.

Oh, it has to be, because you have to. It's where you look into, you learn or you see, that's where most of your habits have evolved from.

So when you look back at your childhood, do you see yourself there and going, that's all the mistakes I made, or that's what's helped me become resilient for when I went. Met these moments in my life?

Yeah, I think when I think back to my own childhood, it was an immensely happy childhood. But I think it was happy because I was given freedom and, you know, came from a very supportive family environment. We lived in Gelach Head.

It was a time in the 90s where, you know, people are so nostalgic about playing outside and, you know, go. We had a tree house, playing on the swings, you know, had brothers, a dog. You know, the whole thing was incredibly wholesome.

But I think during that time, my kind of boisterousness was something that really built a foundation for maybe how I was going to tackle most of my life with energy. So I think that was something that was encouraged.

I think if my circumstances had been different, I maybe would be very different to how I am just now. But I feel like my ambition and sense for adventure was nurtured, which was part of my nature at the time. So maybe got the best of both worlds there.

So was this through, like for school, or was this more like when you're at home or your family, your mother, your dad and your brothers, did they kind of help you kind of realize your ambitions, see what you liked and what you didn't like and how you kind of go. And actually, when I grew up, I want to do this.

Yeah, no, it wasn't. It wasn't as well planned as that. I think it was quite an organic thing. Yeah, I had role models. I think the school thing was irrelevant.

School was literally a playground for socializing. You know, kind of like could bodge my way through the academic side of it, but without really huge amount of aptitude or focus.

But we grew up on bedtime stories of my dad's adventures. So he upsticks and went to Coober Pedy in the middle of the Australian desert, lived as a flying dentist in a dugout, started a judo club over there.

These are not kind of the normal sort of bedtime stories I think people grew up with. But what it did create was this understanding that you can take adventure or that almost like you were expected to.

And I think that having these people within our immediate environment to look up to it, does it create something in you of an expectation of what you're going to be like as an adult?

And I felt like for the sort of boy I was as well, I think I really needed to have a version of myself as a man, of the sort of man I was going to be.

And probably, if I'm honest, the version I had in my head was I was going to be smashing through windows and, like, jumping out of burning buildings and stuff. But it's not nearly as kind of glamorous as that now.

But I feel like certainly within my career, with within my subject that I'm so passionate about, I've taken on a huge amount of challenge and risk. But I think that stems from what we were kind of shown as possible.

And then how did that kind of come about, you being shown what was possible? Was it because your dad's stories or was it because of something else?

I think it was allowing us to try things. I remember my first introduction to entrepreneurship was in the village. We had a cafe opening and it was a big, big news.

The Terrace Coffee House was going to be opening up, and everyone was dead excited about it. There was somewhere to go for breakfast and lunch. And what I saw was an opportunity.

So me and my friend Waseem, we decided to go and knock on the door and ask if we could wash the customer's cars. And. And we were maybe in primary six or primary seven, and we struck a deal with the owner.

We're going to charge £2.50 a car, but 50p had to go to cancer research, and we spent the summer just, you know, earning a bit of a crust, doing something within the village rather than kind of maybe messing around. But we enjoyed the project of it, and I think that was the thing. And it was difficult.

We had to break through probably a lot of uncomfortable moments, like. Like talking to adults, you know, walking through the door without, you know, a meeting arranged and just starting something off. But that.

Yeah, so the car wash kids is what we called ourselves. And it was. Yeah, it was a really good introduction.

All right, and how did that kind of come about, the, you know, the fact your first taste in entrepreneurship was primary six? It wasn't like. Like most people, like 16, 18.

It was like, all right, I'll go and wash cars and charge money and also at the same time, what made you do cancer research? Because most kids would go, oh, that's sweets or something.

Yeah, no, that was the owner of the cafe's idea. So she said she was happy to do it, but we had to put a donation to charity. They had a cancer research charity tin or whatever.

So we would put a certain proportion in there, which obviously we dutifully did. But I think we just were, like, up for doing something, and it was a thing to do. I think this is the thing about kids.

It's like, to us, that's work, but to kids it's not. It's like a project and it's adventure and it's, you know, gamifying life.

A little bit of, you know, there's this new things happened and, you know, we're getting involved. You know, we're literally getting our sleeves rolled up and. And doing something. And we were awful at washing cars.

But I think it was one of those things where we kind of leaned into the cuteness of being young, that you could almost get away with it.

All right, and then after that, did you kind of continue entrepreneurship? Or is it. Or is that. Can you. When you kind of went, all right, okay, let's go back to normal life, and then we become an architect.

And how did that kind of come about then?

No, I think it was. Yeah, when I went to school and I kind of realized I had an interest in design.

And drawing was kind of where architecture became this kind of destination for me, which is really comforting when you're, you know, 14, 15, to have, like a preset where route to follow. I think one of the most unnerving things when you're a teenager is not having a prescribed path.

So it really did help kind of set some sort of wheels in motion.

But along the side, I was always doing, like, side hustles and different things here and there, and even stuff like at family occasions, being the one to organize games and getting people up on their feet and doing activities. That was always kind of my role.

I think, as the kind of middle child of three, there's a cliche that they are often the ones that are maybe slightly more independent or of doing their own thing. And that was very true in my case. And then into university, I always had little businesses to kind of tide me over.

So what sort of side hustles were you doing in between these times then?

So when I was at university, I started the student odd jobbers. The whole premise of this entire business idea was a flyer which had odd job from it's a gold finger.

So much random income from dog sitting to. I was a cleaner for a while, was like taking out shops for people and made some really interesting contacts.

I think that if you could get to know interesting people in any neighborhood in Scotland, the West End probably has some of the most interesting people. So it was a really good opportunity that opened like other doors to me as well. And yeah, I managed to get other students involved at the time.

And that's where it started to kind of grow into something slightly bigger. I then did like bits of graphic design, some website stuff and tried loads of little bits here and there.

And then eventually you went on to create Hoko. How did that kind of come about? What made you go, right, this is the company I'm going to make and work on and become like an architecture.

Instead of go like judicial roots, get a job with another company. Why create your own?

Yeah, do you know what, it's one of those kind of weird things where I look back on this series of events and they were all kind of accidental little moments where you've got a kind of fork in the road. Before I set up Hoco, I'd spent three years doing a part time masters in England whilst playing rugby, whilst having a side hustle and a job.

And it was a tough time. It was a huge amount of effort just to get through the amount of work.

So then I upped Styx and went to Vancouver and kind of let my hair down for about a year and then came back and set up Hoko with the idea that I would have, you know, a little freelance business to do.

Bits and bobs to go back and I ended up staying and when I had the opportunity to take on a steady job in an architecture practice, I had this kind of weird sinking feeling when I was going through the interviews, turning up in a shirt and tie and a little jacket and feeling all businesslike, just that it wasn't for me. So yeah, I decided to pursue it a little bit further and see how I could get on. And I had quite low overheads at the time.

And then eventually kind of like this idea crystallized in my head of what it could be and I saw an opportunity that I'd never been exposed to, which was working with homeowners. So it's never discussed through the architectural Training, not just that market, but the concept of home.

You know, home is this most powerful place where, you know, the. All the core memories that make up the story of our life are generally formed. It's where you go to celebrate.

It's where you go when you have disasters in your life. And it's so important for people to make it their own. And I think architects have a huge part to play in that.

So I kind of fixated on the emotional part of home.

And that's where my creative and my design intent and any sort of entrepreneurial skills that I had growing at the time were focused on how do we create a better system for homeowners to create home for themselves.

And obviously, when you set up, it wasn't plain sailing. So what was the initial challenge that you had? You're going, oh, my God, this is a mix. Big mistake.

I should have just got to that job when I go for it.

Yeah, there's, you know, there was an endless list of challenges. It was really, really difficult. The first one was that I was unqualified.

You know, I wasn't qualified as an architect when I started Hoko, which is why it's called Hoko Design and not Hoko Architects. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. You just can't use the protected title of architect. So I made a strategic hire.

I hired a really experienced architectural technologist, and we kind of lent into our own individual skills. Whereas I was really good with the clients and the design aspects and the operational side of things, and he was incredibly good at architecture.

So we kind of completed each other, and we found that together we created a more complete one person who could actually perform really well within the industry.

And I think that our kind of youthful enthusiasm and maybe my naive optimism was a bit of a superpower at the start to kind of ignore a lot of the problems that were raised in their heads, the red flags, and to pursue a more idealistic view of maybe what we could do. And we've kind of learned the hard way that, you know, you can't really. You can't ignore these things. You have to kind of break through them.

But I think certainly starting the business at, you know, 26 years old was a really good way to kind of just throw yourself in and. And see what happens.

Yeah. So what were the red flags that you were experiencing then?

It's even, you know, really simple stuff like having unlimited holiday, no working hours, a really bohemian culture. I mean, even having. Not having employment contracts. It was very. I mean, I wouldn't say Hippie, but we did have hammocks in the office. Yeah.

And it's like, you know, it took, like, almost going to an employment tribunal for a bad lever for me to realize, my God, this is. You know, there's a system here. And it's not everything is built necessarily on fairness.

So that's something that, you know, as you kind of go through any entrepreneurial journey, is that you have to face up to unfairness, sometimes you have to face up to mistakes. And I think it's through these difficult times is where you actually make real progress within yourself.

Not necessarily business progress, because these are setbacks, but progress within who you're becoming.

Yeah. And then when you experience these, you know, for example, the tribunal, what was kind of going through your head?

Can you just walk me through, like, what happened at the time? You know, what are you going through and going. Because, you know, your business is. You assumed it was going well, you know, why would this happen?

So what was kind of the thought process at the time?

Yeah, so. Well, what happened was we. We had an employee, he'd only been with us for a couple of months, and one day he just stormed out.

And, you know, I was shocked. I just couldn't really fathom what was going on. The whole thing was very peculiar.

And what I found out was that he'd done this before, and it was kind of a bit of a trend. I hadn't checked references. That's another, like, thing that is these things are there for a reason.

And then we were stuck in this system where wheels were in motion with a process. And it's stressful because there's no escaping it. You have to engage with it.

And with employing people, there's a huge responsibility that comes with looking after them. And the rules rightly are set up to protect employees because there's a power imbalance.

But then that kind of goes both ways, because if one party knows they're not playing fair and uses the rules to their own advantage, then the other party could be worse off as well. So, fortunately, we had insurance in place, and it went through a legal process, and it ultimately.

And they got a small cash settlement to avoid going to a tribunal.

But what was going through my mind at the time was just like a. I was like a bafflement that I couldn't understand that you could treat someone really well, give them the. Some. Some really good parts of yourself with the best intent, and then end up kind of a lot worse off.

And I think that it's a sad thing because it affects your Future relationships with people and maybe how you interact in different ways. Ultimately it was a hard learned lesson, a really valuable one and one that I don't resent at all.

But there's been lots of those and they're all equally important.

And.

Yeah, so what would you say were those kind of lessons that you kind of went, and then after that you went, okay, this is the lessons I had, I learned from this. What did you do to implement it?

So you didn't make the mistake again or did you, because you're still learning, did you make similar mistakes or was it different mistakes when you made them?

Yeah, no, I didn't mean that. That mistake again, there's pragmatic things and like any mistake you make, the worst thing you can do is you're buried, hiding in the sand.

You got to embrace it. You've got to like lean into it, you know, and like inject it through your veins and really feel it. I think there's nothing wrong with that.

And when you do engage with a mistake openly and thoroughly within yourself, you then start speaking to people about it and that's when you get really good advice and you can start to put kind of measures in place. So with, with employing people, there's really like simple stuff.

Like we got a really good HR consultant and from there the problem was kind of largely solved. And I think that it, it does kind of affect you kind of understanding how the relationships are all built up.

Because when we were of a really small size, three or four people, you know everybody really, really well. And as you start to grow, you know, people less.

And then because we were growing quickly, the culture was changing quite quickly and it was really hard to kind of keep a handle on it.

So I think that what that shifted in my own mind was rather than prioritizing growth within a team, it's more focusing on the immediate culture and making sure there's a really healthy environment because that prevents problems from occurring. And it means that everybody's aligned about what it is that we're building and we're all kind of doing it together.

It's one of the challenges that businesses have is the growth aspect because you grow too fast and you forget about your culture or you grow slowly and then the culture focus and then you kind of lose the. It's kind of like getting that balance right so you don't lose the. I forgot the words. God, this is awkward.

Je ne sais quoi, like the secret sauce, like, what is it that's making this thing good?

Yeah, essentially, yeah. And so when it comes to, you know, your mistakes where. Actually, let's go back before that.

Actually, I think when you were starting your business, you didn't seem to have like any sort of risk averse.

Is that because of your childhood you had your businesses already kind of set up, so it's kind of just like, oh, this is another fun thing I could try out. Or is it kind of, well, what's the worst that can happen? What was going through your mind when you kind of created Hoko?

Yeah, I think, I think I just kind of thought like, why not give it a crack, let's kind of see what could happen.

I think there's something about starting a project which is super exciting and then if you've started a project that you really love and then you actually align it with some sort of emotional meaning, you can get totally swept up in it very, very quickly.

And I think because it kind of clicked with various aspects of me and my colleague Simon, we just kind of got carried away with it and we started to kind of see more wins than losses. And I think that's when the thing built momentum. And once something has momentum, that's when you're kind of really on a journey by that point.

And we were on a journey in pursuit of a very clear purpose. And I think that's where it becomes less about risk aversion and more about pursuit of a dream.

And that's the thing that once it embedded in, there was no escaping it. And I'm still completely obsessed with that same dream. And it's years and years on, there's been some really bloody hard times in between.

But I think that's kind of what you need. You need someone to drag you through that's kind of bigger than the, the immediate battles.

Yeah. And so when you talked about the hard times, what were they?

I mean, times when you're nearly running out of money is incredibly stressful times when you've got conflict on like multiple fronts. I think going through personal problems, going through family problems, I think being, being unhealthy.

If you're on a bad, you know, either physically healthy or mentally healthy spiral, which comes from time to time. I think the compounding of any of these things can be a very difficult concoction when you're dealing with a very important thing.

Like for us it's other people's homes and designing those, getting let down by like suppliers or people you heavily rely on. Somebody's left managing the aftermath and more often not as the founder. So those are the sort of Things that are incredibly challenging at the time.

Now, when you have these challenges, what's going through your head? How do you deal with it? Because everyone is different. Like, some people compartmentalize.

Some people, they have sleepless nights and they don't know what they're doing. So what do you. What happened to you when you're going through these intense periods?

Yeah, I think, yeah, it's a difficult one. There's been a few. There's been a few times when there's been multiple mounting issues that all require different levels of attention.

But when you're working in an open plan office, people look into you. You can't come in and offload.

You know, you need to demonstrate to the people within your team that when there's problems, you know, you slap on a smile, you're positive, you're pragmatic, you work hard, and you get on with it. But behind closed doors, it can be very, very challenging. I think the biggest, The.

The worst time I can ever remember or imagine was when my brother was really sick. So he was diagnosed with a terminal illness.

And as he was getting towards the end of his life, I had a huge conflict with an incredibly difficult client who is really out for blood and doing all sorts of dirty tactics to inflict damage. At the same time as I was moving house, at the same time, the business was, you know, not performing particularly well because I was away so much.

And it was just a very difficult time seasonally as well. So then I had these kind of mounting pressure points which were kind of chipping away at me and breaking me down.

And I think back to it now and do wonder, like, how on earth did I get through that really, really difficult period of my life? And we were talking about Burnout, the name of the podcast, and I was trying to, like, figure out my head, like, what is the definition of that?

I think. I think for me, the burnout would have been the. The erosion of my purpose entirely, you know, under the weight of all that mounting pressure.

I think if the pressure had eroded my purpose to nothing, I think I would have. I would have tapped out. I think by that point, I would have had to reassess and reinvent. So my strategies are looking at things I can control.

So, you know, if you're struggling with work stuff, you know, go and do a workout. That was my strategy. You can't solve every problem by getting bigger arms, but it does help.

So it's like, why not just go into a workout, set yourself a fitness challenge. That's something you can keep Yourself accountable to.

Just started doing loads of press ups, got into CrossFit and suddenly I would go and do this horrible, horrible workout. But I'm getting all my energy out, I'm getting my stress out or, you know, it's like, treat myself. Have a little, have a little chocolate.

Have a little chocolate treat. Things aren't that bad, you know, I'm having a little chocolate treat. Oh, yeah.

I've got like multiple problems all mounting up and, you know, I could be facing to oblivion. Maybe I'm over the event horizon, I'm not sure. But I've got a little chocolate, so it's not too bad.

I think it's looking at the kind of momentary opportunities to kind of give yourself little bits of relief that really helped me. Doing something kind for people, supporting my parents was a huge thing that helped drag me through that as well.

So, yeah, I think it was, it was a very extreme period of my life, but I think those are the moments where you really make progress within yourself.

I was driving through to Edinburgh today and I was listening to Amelia talks and one of the things that really stuck with me was that if you actually love something and if you have a dream, you have to get on board with suffering. You have to accept there's going to be heartache, you have to accept there's going to be pain. But it's like through this suffering you actually grow.

You know, you can't get the biscuits without the blisters.

That's a. I don't know where that

came from, but yeah, you got to earn those biscuits.

You know, obviously, I think your chocolate treats.

Yeah, I know. Well, we were talking about food quite a lot earlier, so maybe it's on my mind.

So when, when you, when you're going through this period, how did you, I guess before you actually got into the working out, how do you manage to get into the reframed mindset of going, right, I need to do something because there's actually impacting my family life, this is impacting my work. How did you get to that stage? What happened that when you made you go, I need to do something, or everything, I'm going to lose everything.

Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's not. There's no really big, like one thing you can do. I think you can, you can tell yourself little stories over time.

I think that the way the business grew was that there was the, the problems kind of. There was a trajectory to them where they started off small. I mean, I would, I would happily take the problems I had five years ago.

And, um, but that's not really the way progress works. So I think that looking back on all the things that I'd overcome gradually built a feeling of, actually, I can probably get through most things.

Um, so it's really looking back at bad, bad times and then realizing that you got through it and then just keep taking one step after the other. Um, I think that ignoring a bad situation never makes it go away. I think you need to make some sort of little chip away at it.

And if you do that continuously and give yourself moments of fun as well, the whole thing does just create a kind of a rich kind of environment where you can deal with both having fun and dealing with serious problems. And I think for me, the having fun was exercise time with family time with friends, a fair bit of larking around.

But when I knew I had to knuckle down and engage with distressing subject matter, I had the capacity to then do it. And I think that I kind of built my way up to that. I mean, our brains lie to us. You'll know this. The, the kind of.

The world we see and what we experience is all kind of fabricated from past experiences. You start this talking about childhood, that whole thing, you know, it creates a framework for how you interpret the world.

Yes, but you can, you can alter it. You can tell yourself a different story. You know, people, you know, are obsessed with manifesting and things nowadays. I'm.

I'm not a massive manifester, but what I do tell myself continuously is that, you know, I won't stop. I'll keep going in pursuit of this dream. And then I look back on what's happened and I realize that I haven't been stopped.

So I think that when things get tougher and tougher and tougher, you find a way to get a bit fiercer. And so long as you don't have to sustain that for too long, you can usually keep going.

Yeah.

And when you, I guess, learned that and you're going through this period, was it mainly personal impact that was kind of having, or was there any sort of mistakes that you made that you kind of. You kind of gone, well, I should have done that, and you're going, this is what I would have done instead.

What caused the biggest impact? Yeah, yeah. I think the thing that caused the biggest impact was the, the emotional, chronic stress of having a really sick family member.

You know, my little brother, in a lot of ways was the love of my life. Really.

Being his big brother was one of the finest honors I ever could have imagined having in this world and to see him be losing everything, it kind of. It was. It was more than the combined stress of everything else. Everything else wasn't even 1% of how much that hurt.

So I think seeing his strength and his courage, of how he was dealing with the hand he was dealt, it put everything else into perspective. And I think so long as that I was in that war with him, then I could live with myself, and nothing else really mattered as much.

So I think that was a huge life lesson, really, and one that I'm incredibly grateful for. But I think until you've experienced something as harrowing as that, there's always that kind of feeling of wonder of how you would react to it.

And I think for him, he certainly went through a very dark period of his life that he talked about very publicly and very courageously about depression and dealing with suicidal ideation and how he got himself out of that.

And then when he was dealt this terrifying view of his own mortality at such a young age, he really faced up to it and he protected everyone else around him.

And it was such a profound expression of love that the work stress and financial stuff and, you know, it all just becomes relative to why we're actually here. Um, so that was an incredibly difficult time because whilst it puts things in perspective, you can't turn your back on your responsibilities.

And I didn't just have a responsibility to our clients, but our staff, and they have families and relationships, and we've got stakeholders, and, you know, there's all these kind of different people who are. Who are kind of engaged with us. So, yeah, there was a lot to kind of deal with.

But I took strength from him, to be honest, and from my parents, and we all supported each other.

Yeah.

So it was a powerful experience.

And then did you ever. I mean, might not have, but did you ever kind of.

During that sort of period you're gonna go before, have that sort of depressed or really gone to an edge, you're kind of going, I can't do this anymore. Or did you ever. Did you ever kind of get to that sort of stage?

You got really depressed with it all and so much as, well, overwhelming you, and you just. You just couldn't do anything. But then you. You like, wait a minute, this is happening. I can do it. If you can do that. Yeah.

No, there wasn't a point where I felt like I was throwing in the towel or anything. I think what really helped was having a role.

The truth was, you know, for a couple of years, would cry every day on the way into work, cry every day on the way home, and would be intensely worried about what was going to happen next. It's a horrible experience for the family around someone they love so much to see what they're going through.

But my role was to create a sense of purpose. It was to bring levity and to allow my brother to kind of express himself and stuff and to be his big brother, really.

So I kind of had a role to play, and I don't think I'd be really be able to live myself if I kind of indulged myself in giving up when I had such an important responsibility. And then we all within the family took strength from each other.

So I don't know, I feel like there was a lot of growth to be had in that opportunity and, yeah, found little ways to kind of get through it. So, yeah, it's.

It's always interesting when we go through these traumatic periods, because it either makes you or breaks you in many cases. And it's. It's never easy. It really isn't. And so when you kind of going through these sort of periods and stuff, did you ever kind of.

With the business talk going back to this, did you kind of ever kind of go let it.

Let you accidentally make mistakes, or did you kind of go and write, I can't really do much, so I'm going to put someone else in charge so they could work on the business for me while I am dealing with all this? Or did you kind of keep in the business at the same time because you needed something to do?

Yeah, certainly. No, no, no. The. Yeah. The thing that I've. I've realized within the family, we. We describe my brother's illness as being a war.

It was, you know, a generational war that, like, struck our family that we armed up and we stuck in and we, you know, fought back as hard as we possibly could using any skills and resources we had available. And I think when you're in that sort of situation, there's people who stick around and there's people who find it hard to engage with.

There's some these people who find it really curious. Like, there's a morbid curiosity there as well.

But I was incredibly lucky to have some incredibly devoted colleagues who showed a huge depth of humanity to take so much of the burden off me and to take on a huge amount of stress themselves to be supportive. Without them, the thing just wouldn't exist anymore.

It was a hugely humbling experience to see how much they enabled me to go and spend Time with my family and, you know, the production company of the. I've gotten some of the year as well. Incredibly supportive, loads of people kind of given an opportunity for flexibility.

But the people who took on practical roles, who alleviated things that had to be done, was immense. You know, you know, two colleagues in particular at the time, you know, Simon and Anya, who were both directs in the business.

You know, Cameron, our current architectural director as well, you know, really upped his game in terms of what the business was able to do, and it's thanks to them that the thing survived.

So, yeah, obviously, you can imagine, feel incredibly devoted to the people who were around at the time, but I think it's that some of that, you know, when we discussed earlier about, you know, bad levers, employment tribunals, as much as that scars you, these scars are. Are healed tenfold by the people who show, you know, that intense level of loyalty and moral fiber.

And it restores that childish naivety which sometimes gets a bit of a kicking when you're trying to, you know, do something innovative.

It's kind of like what entrepreneurs said to me. It's. It's like essentially you either make mistakes and you're left with good lessons or you. You don't and you're left with good memories. Yeah, it's.

Yeah, it's a really good way. It was a really insightful way to kind of reframe the. The journey of, you know, building a company. Because there's a lot of. It's never.

It's never straight, it's never, you know, it's not the way you think it's going to be. It's not going to be right. I'm doing this. It's going to be that. It's peaks and troughs, essentially.

Yeah.

And was that kind of, you know, the worst period was because of that or that had the worst impact in your business, or was there other things as well that kind of happened that you. Before that, when you're building it just in the business?

Yeah, I mean, that was the most traumatic time for me personally. Around the same time, we had a really difficult situation where we'd launched our contracting business.

So one of the biggest problems we identified, still a huge problem with the industry, is clients finding the most appropriate builder. And we had a builder that we worked with repeatedly was really good. We really aligned our values and we launched a contracting business together.

And he was in with several projects.

A lot of them were going fine up until a point, but he took on too much and they all start to run Late simultaneously, cracks started to appear across all of them. And, and then he just said, I'm burnt out. I'm done, I'm out. See you later.

And we were left with that aftermath of trying to resolve these projects, which is a very, very difficult thing to manage because we took a huge financial loss on it. You know, it hit. That was the most severe financial penalty we've ever experienced from an innovation that was there with the best of intentions.

But again, it's one of those situations where you learn from the challenges and that's where you grow. You know, suffering is part of the process. And if you're not suffering, like, are you even in the game? You know, are you trying hard enough?

I think the, that the pain comes from the love you put into caring about the process.

And as much as it's a sore one to take, you know, when these challenges come along, there comes a point where you're like, right, okay, we're going to, we're going to do some growing over the next several months. You can become brave without facing your fears.

So I think so long as you can have the presence of mind to engage with these mistakes openly within yourself, you learn how to shred your ego away and, and actually find happiness through suffering.

And was. Was this hoco build?

It was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

When you kind of got the sanction from the regulators, what was going through your mind at the time, considering what you said?

Yeah, I mean, that, that process in itself was, was not what I expected. So the, the client was, was really not after they tried to get financial compensation legally and we were found not to be at fault.

So then they went down the regulatory route. There was a lot of dirty tricks. There was some. They tried to blackmail me over a phone call. They then. Which I had evidence for.

They, they then told something totally different to the regulator. I had evidence for that. They didn't want to look at it. They were like, you know, it's you that were questioning, not them, which is fair enough.

It was a harrowing experience because it all happened around the time of my brother's passing.

So I was having to kind of resource my time very, very carefully, but already dealing with a bereavement, already dealing with a business that was struggling because of my absence and then having to go through this process where the outcomes were public shaming and career annihilation. Incredibly difficult time.

And not one that was met with a huge amount of humanity, I felt, because, you know, there's a huge amount of pressure on architects generally, if you compare them to other professions, they're certainly in professional services quite badly pick paid, don't have a huge well of resources. And the stress does lead to huge problems with mental health, the third most likely profession to commit suicide, for example.

So it was a very, very difficult time and I had to just engage with it and, and take some hard lessons on the chin. I think the part of it which bothered me the most was that dishonesty was included in the initial allegations.

And I feel like honesty is, is and hope and has always been a huge part of my character. And I feel like in difficult situations I have the capacity to be honest when it's very difficult.

And, but honesty as a professional person, if dishonesty is proven is the, the most worst punishment. And to have that on record online, the thought of that was, you know, it was chilling really. It was chilling when I knew it was untrue.

And it turned out that leading into the, the actual hearing itself, my solicitor who previously had worked for the ARB happened to know someone he could contact to say, I, he's a really experienced solicitor. I've been through everything. There's no evidence of dishonesty here. You can't take forward an allegation without evidence to justify it.

And they said, okay, that's fair enough, there isn't enough evidence and we'll remove it if you admit to the other things. And that was the starting point for the hearing. So they removed it. And I didn't accept to admit to lacking of integrity, which was not proven.

So the reprimand I was given was for the, the other stuff. And it was a hard, a hard lesson learned. But take on the chin. You know, these things, these happen.

You learn a lot about your profession and what it opened up to was a more deeper understanding about how difficult it is for architects sometimes as well. I think there are instances where architects have a huge amount of responsibility where they make mistakes like anybody.

But there's also situations when they can get caught out and a system can work against them.

And I found a few different examples with doing my research where architects who were actually innocent of what they were getting accused of, the lives were ruined from the process. So it's one of those ones that I've got kind of an interest in.

The reality was at the time there was a slightly, there was some salacious headlines about what actually happened.

I knew within myself what had happened in the final report, the ARB actually wrote that they thought I had exemplary character in my professional personal life. That makes a terrible headline.

But there was One that I was quite glad to read, but it paled into insignificance in the light of having just lost my best friend.

So.

So it was when I was able to stomach.

Yeah. And when you kind of look back at it, what were you just to walk through? What were you mentally? How were you mentally during all that?

I mentally was. Was pretty strong, to be honest. Yeah, I actually felt. Yeah, pretty solid.

It's funny, one of the things I was reflecting on with somebody recently, they were, they were talking about judo. So I used to do judo as a child when I was a student. My dad was a black belt, my uncle, you know, was a black belt.

And it was a part of the family culture and it was kind of. There was an expectation to do judo and I loved it, but it was incredibly stressful.

And I remember in primary school, you know, it was being organized for me to go to a competition and I would listen to these stories of competitions and how fierce it was and you're fighting another boy the same way.

It's a level playing field, you're expected to win and not being able to sleep the night before, being sick before going out onto the mat, you know, the jelly legs looking at this other boy who's, who's probably also scared, but looking very aggressive. And you know, they're shouting at you in Japanese, your dad shouting from the sidelines.

And you want to do your best, but there's an unbelievable crushing amount of fear within your body and, and you're just a little boy.

And I think back to those moments and I remember as it was heading to exam time, my father said to me that, you know, you might be nervous before going into the exams, but you won't be anywhere near as nervous as you were, you know, doing Judah competitions. And I was like, bloody hell, you're not half wrong.

So I think it's like so long as you're putting yourself out there and you're, and you're, and you're going through situations that make you feel incredibly stressed, nervous, anxious, fearful.

If you mount these up and if you kind of grow with them, by the time you end up sitting in front of an ARB hearing with, you know, some hungry journalists at the door, you know, you can maybe go into it with your heart a bit more open and, you know, kind of trusting yourself to, to deal with it in a way that you feel proud of yourself afterwards.

And so do you feel like that because of your childhood, going through these sort of moments, like the judo, experiencing the guest, that earth shaking sort of fear. You've kind of. You developed a way of controlling your fear and, like, the way you're thinking.

And that's kind of what's helped you when it's come to all these issues when you're building your business.

Yeah, I think it's. Yeah, it's been. It's been fundamental, to be honest.

It's one of those things, you know, everybody gets up in the morning, they go through the day, they would sleep at the end of the day. Like, what you decide to do within that time is. Is really important.

And I think setting yourself challenges repeatedly and trying to push yourself, that's living, you know. Well, it is to me. Everyone's different, but to me, you know, suffering for the sake of our purpose is that's being all in.

That's human spirit, and that comes with good and bad. So when that's happening, you're like feeling something. You know, you feel it in the good times, but you feel in the bad times as well.

And you got to embrace it, like lean into it and really feel it. I think that's where you develop and that's where you really grow.

I know when you. I guess you're looking back at it. You mentioned architecture is the third most likely for suicide. Do you know why is that?

Do you think there's like going to the entrepreneurship, building it? Do you think when it comes to mental health, talking about it because it's not really talked about these sort of things.

Do you think there's an issue around it and needs to be more discussed openly? Because the research suggests that, you know, there's a lot of like 85%, you know, experience burnout, but there's not really much help.

You feel like, you know, that's an issue or is it more. It's not really to do with the system. It's more just people aren't willing to talk about it because of cultural things?

No, I think it absolutely needs to be talked about. I think within architecture especially, I think burnout is magnified through isolation.

I think that once people feel alone, you know, you're far more likely to be done. I think that people can have some solidarity within people who are maybe facing similar challenges.

You've got a much more likely opportunity to actually get through whatever it is you're dealing with, and especially if people can be open about sharing their own problems. My experience of architecture is pretty much that people operate generally in silos. There isn't really an open communication.

There's a level of presentation about how you're doing which is magnified more than other aspects of my life. Like even like social media and media stuff, sporting stuff, whatever it is.

I feel like in architecture it's particularly murky and misty, but there's also a level of competitiveness and there's a voyeurism to people who get in trouble because, you know, everyone's terrified of getting the kind of, you know, the yellow and black logo letter coming through your door from the ARB that you've got a complaint. So I think it is something people need to be open about. And I certainly was completely oblivious to how that system actually works.

And if someone had explained it better to me, I would have been kind of more knowledgeable, which would have been a really helpful thing at the time in terms of managing the stress. There was no part of the process where somebody reached out to me and said, are you okay?

You know, I told them when I got the hearing bundle that I had, they, you know, it took six months to get it sent over to me. Huge, like 350 pages of information. And I think I had, you know, a couple of weeks to respond.

I said, literally just, you know, the funeral is in two weeks. Could I get an extension? You know, they said, you know, of course you can get a two week extension.

You know, but I think the reading between the lines there, to actually understand that somebody is facing one of the most difficult career moments of their entire life whilst also going through a bereavement. At the time, I was also moving house and we were momentarily in a bridging loan. You know, the business being under pressure as well.

Suddenly this thing which was like one challenge has turned into two, into three, into four. That's where pressure can actually crush.

But I did speak to people, I spoke to friends and colleagues, and they shared the things they were struggling with. And you feel like you're not alone. So I absolutely think it's something that needs to be opened up certainly within architecture.

I think if there's any architects that listen to this who have worries or fears, drop me a message, I'll be more than happy to talk to you. I'm more than happy to talk about this sort of stuff openly, you know, and face up to challenges I've been through or even mistakes I've made.

So I think that can't be a bad thing.

It's. It's not. It's a. One of the difficult things is just opening up and talking about, I guess it's a vulnerability.

And then when you, I guess, was it what made you kind of get past that fear of being willing to be vulnerable. How do you get past it?

I think. Well, I think vulnerability is, is a strength really. I think that to be vulnerable is. It's a self protective thing, is to hide that away.

It feels incredibly natural to try and keep it a secret. I think once you're open about what you're actually facing, the thing is out in the open. It's less of a. It's less of a thing than your own head. Yeah.

My little brother was really profound and wise in some of the advice that he gave.

One of the things that he told me about how he viewed his life, which really stuck with me, aside from some of the kind of ground shakingly wise things, was that when he would travel and he, he traveled a lot through Southeast Asia and Europe and America and stuff, he said he would view himself as a character in a plot, in a movie. He was obsessed with movies.

He was an amazing actor and he and a poet and a writer and he would view himself almost externally and he would watch himself go into these different situations and he could dictate how the character was going to respond. And it was fascinating to hear him just talk about this. So off the cuff.

And I tried to start doing it myself and through practice I've managed to kind of almost externalize some of the issues I'm facing as just being like part of the plot. But the reality is that, you know, you can control the main character, you can decide what they do next.

And I think that's when you're actually in a position to give yourself really meaningful advice.

I think when you're so engrossed in it, and certainly if ego is attached to you or cringe is attached to you, then you're probably not going to make the decisions that are actually best for that character. So I think talking to him at the time was a huge source of comfort. And it got me through some times that were like really challenging.

Did you ever, I guess when you're building your business, go have to go. Well, actually I have a bit too much ego. I need to kind of take it down.

Or did you ever never get to that stage, you know, having, you know, this sort of a, I guess you could say in some cases building business, kind of like a hero complex. You know, you're doing great, you're crusading, you're doing your dream.

Yeah, no, no, definitely. I was like totally fell victim to that. It was. Yeah.

I think shaking off ego is, is one of the biggest keys to actually making successful business decisions. I think I fell into the over hiring trap. I certainly went down a materialistic route at the start as well.

And every time that I stripped back these egotistical little advice notes I was getting for myself, I became so much better and so much more fulfilled and content within myself. I was talking to my dad about ego as well, and it's a fascinating topic and I just, I want to research it more and more.

But I feel like ego and cringe are kind of two sides of the same coin. You know, I think cringe is this like debilitating emotion that people don't explore fully enough.

I think that once you kind of can feel cringe and feel it hard, that feeling of retreating, it's almost like, who am I to think that I can do this?

Ego is the opposite, you know, And I think that if you can shake both aspects and end up just at a point where you can believe in yourself, to a point where you work on yourself and you're pursuing things for reasons that make sense to you and you can speak with confidence because what you feel is true, I feel like that's a really kind of. I don't know, I think that's where I found meaning in my work a lot more.

But it's challenging and I think that you need to kind of learn very quickly and you're starting a business that being, being egotistical is really going to curtail your ambitions.

I was thinking, and when it comes to, you know, what was the moment of the egotistical thing? You went, right, I need to curtail it. What was that? Kind of, did someone tell you or was it just you?

You were kind of doing something going, that's not me.

I think we kind of got to a point in the business. In fact, there was a single person who I would meet frequently at networking things and he would always ask me the same question.

How many people have you got now? And I would know he was going to be at somewhere and I would think about that conversation and I would know what he was going to ask me.

And I would know the look in his eyes when the number had grown. And then it kind of dawned on me that like, it dawned to me when the number was going to be less.

You know, we, we went through a period of growth and then we kind of gradually moved back down to a team size that made sense for what it was we were doing at the time. And when I, when he asked me the question and the number had gone down, his reaction kind of, it bothered me.

And I was thinking why the hell am I trying to impress this guy? Why the hell is that a measure? It's not a measure at all.

And I realized that there was multiple kind of similar trends that I was maybe falling into when it should not be affecting your decision making and it should not be affecting how you feel within yourself. The things that should affect how you feel within yourself are, you know, are you being kind to people? Are you treating people fairly?

Are you suffering in the right ways?

Is your time being spent doing things that are important to you and your mission and the things that make you feel good and the sort of person you want to be not in impressing others? And I think that it's a very easy trap to fall into.

But that was a really defining moment where I just kind of had this kind of epiphany moment where I just stopped caring entirely. And yeah, I'm so glad that happened because it's made a huge difference to, you know, how I feel about myself as well.

What do you mean that it made you different about how you see yourself?

So, yeah, it kind of made me realize that it's. It's completely what's inside, which is the gravity to making progress with my life.

It's not anything external that I can put out or demonstrate through things, through material stuff or, you know, any way of impressing people. And I completely rebelled against that to an extreme. Is partly the reason why I wear Crocs all the time. You know, it's because that's. It's a joke.

It's like it's an offense to the system we're in about the uniform for your role.

And.

And it became this kind of point to prove within myself that it absolutely doesn't matter. That actually what matters is how I carry myself, the way I speak, the things I believe, and how true I am to, you know, those character traits.

And it's magnified time and time again that it really does not matter. These external things that, that people can use to kind of glorify themselves are completely irrelevant. You're the exact same person inside.

And if it's the inside bit that you nurture and you grow and you try and perfect and you try and put through challenges, that's when you be. Become something that you can be really proud of.

Yeah. What are your biggest lesson throughout your journey of building Hoko and including, you know, all the tragic, you know, hardship you went through?

The biggest lesson,

the one that you keep going back to and keeping yourself held accountable. You have to.

Yeah, honestly, I think the biggest lesson really is that like nothing really matters? Is this even real? You know, it's like, what the hell is going on? The whole thing just seems so far fetched to me that we exist at all.

And you, you only kind of get. Well, I've only ever had a handle on that through the, the extreme experience of, of loving.

And I think that's what gives me clarity on kind of why we are here.

So I think when it comes to how you operate through all the different aspects of your life, if you're giving out kindness, that's kind of where you feel that you are enriching your space in the universe.

And I think by doing that, that's the kind of biggest lesson I've found is that any other approach to life is it's not going to leave me feeling anything but shortchanged from getting a shot at all this.

And when you talk to entrepreneurs or people, architects trying to do what you've done, what was the vice that you kind of issued give them regarding, you know, burnout, mental health, you know, the fails and the heart, the parts that many people don't talk about. And then if they do really ask you the question.

Yeah, it was like, well, you're kind of lucky to be getting to experience this. You know, it's like, yeah, my God, like you're in the game. Like, lean into it.

You can always go and get a job or do something else, there's no embarrassment there. But like you care about something enough that you're feeling this such extreme feeling, you know, Can I help you with it? Let's talk about it.

I'll tell you some of my experiences. But like, wow, you're, you're, this is human spirit.

Like lean into those feelings, feel them, because you're going to come out of this a totally different animal. Just keep pushing through because you'll get over it.

The worst case scenario probably isn't really that bad compared to the magnitude of some things that people have to face.

And I suppose that when we've had those discussions before, there's an awkward laugh and some people take on the chin, some people are kind of maybe less so. But that's how I honestly feel about it.

It's interesting one because most people say you're ready to set blood for breakfast.

Yeah.

Because of it's, it's grueling, it's not easy.

Yeah.

The journey. So it's interesting, you know, that you've managed to come a, create a very positive spin to it.

And is that, is that all because of, you know, I guess seeing your brother's what you went through, that kind of, did that kind of help you create this positive spin? How did that kind of come up?

Yeah, he was, he was an immensely positive person. Incredibly positive.

One of the most courageous things that I've ever seen was how positive and joyful and humorous he was whilst going through incredibly destructive treatments and an illness. The way he would bring humor to the hospital wards and to family occasions was, you know, nothing short of angelic.

If I can be so crude as to use something as romantic as that. It seemed otherworldly when you were talking earlier about, you know, hero complex. I had a messiah complex about him.

How he carried himself with so much grace through all of that was astonishing. Really astonishing. Quite a once in a lifetime experience, actually, to behold somebody of that higher quality.

So I think to bring positivity to those experiences, something absolutely have learned from him and the most, potentially the most valuable lesson in my life.

And I think if more people can talk about that and actually change their mindset to realize that, you know, through challenges, through suffering is where you find love. It's where you find courage, it's where you find strength. You know, it's not found in the easy ride.

It's found in, you know, facing adversity and keeping moving.

Yeah, it's quite, I guess you, you've been quite lucky that you had a very supportive family because for your earlier building the business you mentioned, you know, every time, you know, you had something, you'd always go to them because you had that support network.

But he always has it worse. You know, it's one of, it's one of those things. It is relative. Yeah, there's lots of ways you could view anybody's circumstances.

One of the ones I think about. So I've got three little boys, right? Absolutely incredible little boys. But being a parent's really tough. It's especially tough for mothers.

And I sometimes imagine the life of like being a single mom, having to provide, do all the mothering, how unbelievably difficult that must be. And we're talking about burnout with entrepreneurs and architects and stuff. You know, there's, there's relative situations which are incomparable.

So I suppose all we can really do, and I hope it doesn't sound like grandiose that I'm sitting in my office, you know, going to go home and have a nice dinner. Dinner and stuff, that I'm seeing how my approach to problems has been, has worked for me because I think it's different for everybody.

But I think that you can only understand your own struggles and try and get on with it. So, yeah, there's certainly some people who I think have a much tougher deal.

And then do you have an item, like an artifact from your early days that can represent the. The symbolism of building Hoko? You kind of look back or you have like, I don't know, maybe like a brick or a pen or a caravan. Yes, Stellar mad.

I have a caravan. That's their artifact.

All right.

Okay, so do you have like an artifact? You go. They can. You kind of look back on that. You just look at. Do you hold on to. You go, that. That's kind of symbol of my time building this.

And now this is where I am to where I was.

No, not. Not really. I don't. So I went through this kind of intense period of removing materialism from my life.

I got rid of loads of sentimental stuff, so I don't really have any. You know, I don't keep any trophies or awards or anything like that either. I feel like the.

The biggest thing is my colleague Simon, who was there from the start, and I think when sometimes we've had a couple of. Couple of beers and stuff, and we're starting to reminisce a little bit about how things have changed. I love those moments.

I think those are gold dust for feeling how it's different.

We don't give ourselves enough of an opportunity to actually realize that we've affected so much good within the industry, because I think we both feel that we're like, nowhere near done yet. We've still got so much progress to make.

So, yeah, there's no particular trinket or thing that I could potentially lose or misplace, because I almost certainly would. But, yeah, there's just the memories and our kind of shared friendship.

So you don't artifact. You just have Simon.

I just got Simon. Yeah, but you can chuck him in the caravan and then.

Well, thank you for taking time to talk to me. Thank you for watching. This is the Burnout Files.