Many church leaders notice fewer young adults in the pews and wonder what strategy to try next. But Kristina Frugé, who leads the Riverside Innovation Hub at Augsburg University, has spent years actually listening to young adults. She's discovered something encouraging: they are open to connections to spiritual communities. They're hungry for authentic relationships, meaningful engagement with their real lives, and churches that practice what they preach. The gap isn't about coffee bars or contemporary worship. It's about whether churches lead with genuine curiosity or anxiety about decline. Young adults can tell the difference.

In this episode, Kristina shares insights from her work with hundreds of young adults and from the new book "Hungry for Hope: Letters to the Church from Young Adults." She explains why young adults want to be known rather than known about, how "courageous curiosity" creates space for genuine connection, and why grief might be an important place to start. The good news? Churches already have what they need—relationships, practices, stories, and people who know how to love their neighbors. The question is whether we're willing to listen for where God is already at work in the lives of faith and young adults in our communities.

Sometimes I worry that some of these conversations when we're talking about generational differences start to like, could fall into a pitfall of like pitting one, like one generation knows more than the other. One has more wisdom, one has more experience, one has a better take on what's happening in the real world. And I don't think any of those things are true. I think all people are people and different generations are bringing a different perspective to the reality that we're all trying to navigate.

based on a whole variety of circumstances. And so I still, it sounds like maybe I'm trying to be too simple about it, but I still think it comes back to relationship, and I still think it comes back to being able to hold space for someone that has a different outlook.

Hello everyone, welcome to the Pivot Podcast where we explore how the Church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Dwight Zscheile And I'm Terri Elton. And today we're excited to welcome Kristina Frugé from Augsburg University. Kristina leads the Riverside Innovation Hub, which is doing important work connecting young adults and creating space for innovative ministries. She's also the co-author with Jeremy Myers of a new book called Hungry for Hope.

Letters to the Church from Young Adults. Kristina and her colleagues at the Innovation Hub have been listening deeply to what young adults are actually hungry for spiritually. They've discovered that young adults aren't abandoning faith. In fact, they're looking for authentic community, meaningful engagement with Scripture, and churches that actually practice what they preach. Through the Innovation Hub and this book,

They're helping us see how the church can pivot from tying to attract young adults back to inherited forms of ministry, to equipping young adults to lead new expressions of Christian community that connect faith with daily life. Welcome, Kristina.

Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here with you both.

So tell us about the Riverside Innovation Hub at Augsburg. What prompted its creation back in 2018? And what have you learned about young adults in faith through this work?

Sure. Well, as many good things in the church, this was credit to the Lilly Endowment of Religion and the first iteration of their Young Adult Initiative. Augsburg was invited to submit an application. I think in 2016, I came on board in 2017, and by 2018, we had launched a first iteration of the Riverside Innovation Hub that has had many different

looks and feels and formats and has just continued to evolve into a really important ministry and I would say a community of practice of folks trying to do this work in meaningful ways in our neighborhoods with folks of all ages and listening to young adults in the process. I think ⁓ what prompted the invitation from Lilly ⁓ for organizations to ask some questions around the intersection of young adults and the church

⁓ was certainly some curiosity about what's going on there. They were noticing some things are changing and I think for sure there was some anxiety about those changes and worry about what that meant and looking at a decrease and a decline in younger generations' involvement in Christian community. ⁓ But I would say ⁓ as a learning partner with us, the Lilly Endowment and those that have supported this work have been curious about what is there to learn there. ⁓

And so in terms of some of the things that we've learned about young adults and faith, I feel like I need to caveat this by saying I can't speak for young adults. When I was hired, I was sad to find out I was not a young adult, according to the Lilly Endowment. I am 46, just to give a reference point there. But I will share some things that...

that young adults have taught me and shared with me through their stories and some of them I've worked with for many years and some of them I just got to meet in short windows of time. I think I would say, would, there's an encouraging piece here that to not confuse young adults' disinterest with church, with a disinterest in God and definitely not a lack of faith or deep spiritual understanding and curiosity in the world. ⁓

think this is a generation that has had varied experiences with the church. ⁓ Before coming to Augsburg, I worked in St. Louis Park with a number of congregations and we actually did some listening work with high schoolers at the time, which would eventually been in this young adult category by the time I was working at Augsburg. we asked, we did a listening project and asked them a number of questions. And one of the questions was, what do you think of when you think about church? And it was

a pretty interesting split. 20 % or sorry, 25 % had a positive experience, 25 % had a negative experience, and half of them, over half of them were just kind of indifferent. Like the church just isn't doing things or talking about things that I'm interested in. It's just kind of off my radar, and therefore not a resource I'm gonna seek out, even though those of us that have worked in and grown up in churches know the gift of relationship and community.

and meaningful story there. So, ⁓ yeah, so given those varied experiences, think young adults that I have spoken with want, if they're gonna be a part of something, they really wanna know that it matters in their real life. And so if you're not a part of those things that matter out in the world, it's gonna be hard to build a relationship there. ⁓ Yeah, I'll stop.

I could keep going, but I know we have more questions. think all of what you'll hear here are things that we have learned. ⁓

So you've said that young adults don't want people to know about them. They want people to know them. Right. That's two little words, but it means something really different. Reveal a little bit about what you and how you understand that. Yeah.

Yeah, that's definitely in the category of things that we have learned or maybe been just reminded of. I would say, first of all, that this generation is not unique in wanting that. I think we all just want that as human people. We don't want to be a number. We don't want to be on someone's checkbox list. We don't want to be just there to serve someone else's purpose if we're going to be a part of something we want there to be relationship and value and belonging there. ⁓

So I think that looks like a desire to have relationship, to have a seat at the table, to have conversation partners. I think some of the young adults that I have had relationships with would say, I don't need a church or a pastor or someone to tell me what to do with my life. I just need them to listen to where I'm at and support me and be a part of my circle. ⁓

And so that is different than the overanxious response to like, ⁓ now we have to learn everything there is to know about millennials, about Gen Y, Gen Z, like fill in the blank. And not to negate, there are certainly distinct things to observe about that, but I think those things that...

social scientists and others have drawn from the differentiating the different generations has more to do with the context that folks are coming of aging than like something different about them as a human being. ⁓ And so I think there's been, there's another layer with this current kind of younger generations coming up that that anxiety has actually like.

has actually gone in, it's had a negative impact on the desire to actually be able to build a relationship, right? Because as congregational members and pastors and leaders are looking around at an aging congregation, ⁓ wondering where the young people are, the folks in the pews are worried about their kids or their grandkids and why isn't this a meaningful place for them? The anxious response actually pushes away and gets in the way of the real relationship and being known.

⁓ And some of the things that folks are anxious about, ⁓ I think in the church, some of the topics that the young adult authors and co-authors in the book bring up, there's a lot of things about identity. And so the other part of that being known is I want to be able to be my whole person. I don't want to have to check my ⁓ gender identity or political ideas or

Other questions I have or uncertainties I have about, I don't want to have to check that at the door. I want to be able to be that whole person. And it doesn't always feel like there's a comfort or room. There's too much anxiety around a lot of those issues. And so it's hard to be known when you can only be a version of yourself.

Well, one of the phrases that I found helpful in the book is courageous curiosity, this idea of being comfortable asking questions without immediately needing answers and being able to sort of sit with ambiguity and be curious. Talk to us a bit about that, both as a reality or a posture, maybe perhaps among younger adult populations today, but also for churches to engage with them and in ministry.

I'm glad you said posture and you picked up on that. Like that is key because this notion, this idea of courageous curiosity is a way of being. And it's less about needing to have all the answers. It's a way about how you're showing up in relationship, how you're showing up in conversation. And there's a little bit of a need for some self-reflection to embody those kinds of postures so that we can clear away the anxieties and the worries that might just be living rent-free.

as church leaders or older adults, know, worried about why our kids aren't finding meaning in the ways that we did in our church communities. And if we aren't like cognizant of those things that are generating that anxiety, it's going to be really difficult to be open and curious. ⁓ And so the authors of that chapter, ⁓ Pastor Amber, Kalina and Rashida Washington, name

five different postures that are really important and kind of embodying this way of courageous curiosity. And I won't unpack them, but authenticity, emotionality, humility, resilience, and reflection. And so I think these are all things that we are wired to be able to do as humans, but we have to kind of slow down and like take stock before we dive into to potentially, you know,

Difficult conversations are conversations or topics that don't have answers. Like that's just part of the reality of what we're navigating. I ⁓ think there's a bit of good news in this idea of courageous curiosity because in our experience curiosity is like a gateway. It's like a doorway. And so that anxious energy about, no, what's happening? Where are all the young people? Why don't my grandchildren, you know?

want to come to church anymore. ⁓ It's not a far journey from anxiety to switching that to, wonder what God is up to in this. I wonder what the story is of this young person in my life that I love so dearly and what does give them meaning. Like you can easily pivot that energy into a place of curiosity. So that ⁓ it's not as hard as we might assume, but it can still be kind of scary.

which is why that courageous piece is like we need to take some risks, we need to move forward despite the fear.

Hmm.

So

I think one of the...

gaps or difference of coming at building relationships has to do with institutions. ⁓ Young adults tend to be suspicious of institutions but hungry for community. And I think a lot of church people go, well, institutions are what create community, right? Sure. For many, or it was a part of their experience. So how can churches embody this kind of community that's not so institutional?

framed or it doesn't have the kind of baggage that comes with that, that would open up this kind of curiosity and posture to be in these different kind of relationships.

Yeah, I mean, there's a few thoughts I have about that. I do think the courageous curiosity is a good start for that. ⁓ Being OK with not needing to be the smartest person in the room, but maybe learning how to be a really good listener in the space. ⁓ And so we don't have to solve all the institutional baggage. We just have to figure out how to show up and be our human selves.

are made in God's image and see the human in front of us made in God's image and ⁓ remember relationship. I mean, I think if there's any through line to this conversation that I would hope listeners take away is we know how to be in relationship. We have a relational God that embodies this for us and we have, we know how to do this. We know it takes work and time and patience and it's messy. And so what is the ⁓

What does that look like in your context then to create place for relationship, to create place for curiosity and listening? And stories are a beautiful way to build capacity for that. ⁓ We don't have to wait till we've like addressed all the institutional baggage to build relationship. There's one of the chapters in the book On Community written by Nick Tangin and Amer Peterman. ⁓

they talk about ⁓ the need for authentic community to be incarnational. So again, we're back to this embodiment language, like this idea of a posture, a way of being not having all the answers, thank goodness, ⁓ but being able to show up. ⁓ And so this idea of an incarnational community built on our belief, our foundational beliefs in an incarnational God, like,

God shows up in bodies, our bodies are sacred and they matter and that is the space of human relationship. And so they talk about the need for in their chapter, Christian community takes place in bodies, in a particular place and in our presence. So I think those are kind of a Christians like threes, we can, like how do you create place for those relationships of actual people and ⁓

in a particular place, in a particular context, and how do you focus on just being present with one another in that? And I think ⁓ be ready to be surprised because those are the kinds of environments where we can really experience and understand God's presence, I think, in those interactions in the space of building relationship. The one other thing that I would add, because I do think there's a lot of

With that baggage, ⁓ there can be, again, these unspoken fears, these ungreaved losses that folks bring to the table. And there was a question that a pastor years ago, and I don't remember who it was, gave me, but he would ask folks, for whom does your heart break? And I think sometimes I've asked that of pastors over the years, and sometimes the answer is, they're breaking for ourselves.

future of our congregation for the losses we've had. And those are very real important heartbreaks, but they have to be given space to be honored, to be grieved. Or they might come out sideways in the relationship building work. then they might get in the way of that courageous curiosity because I'm trying to listen to your story, but I also really want you to want to come and be a part of this church and have the faith like I had growing up.

I was just going to say, don't have a really good conversation and say, so do you want to be in the worship committee? Yeah. Next statement, right? Because that's what you're getting at. ⁓

⁓

And a hidden agenda. Right. And like, can I swear on this podcast? okay. Well, there's a high level of bull crap, you know, radar in younger generations. And so if, so take the time and the space to process some of that. It doesn't mean it's bad that you are, that your heart is breaking about this church, beloved church that's nurtured your faith. And ⁓ that is different than cultivating a relationship with someone.

I don't know.

on.

And I think for me, even if there's not a person is entering with the transaction in mind, we can go there because it's habit. Right. Unless we've reflected, is what I you saying.

Right, right.

It's addressing the anxiety in the space so that you can metabolize it enough to shift it to genuine curiosity, not just trying to overpower, override with the brain. I'm going to be curious. I have really good questions. ⁓ But there is some heart stuff going on there, ⁓ and that's God's stuff. And the good news is we have practices, have prayer, we have worship, we have, you know,

Do that someplace else.

these

reflection plate ways that we can spend some time with that and honor.

Cool.

Well, I love the incarnational emphasis and one of the things I hear you describing is it's almost like the preconditions of you and being able to have credibility engaging is this kind of curiosity, not having the agendas and all those things. But I want to explore a little bit deeper. mean, one of the things the sociologists will tell us about younger adults in America today is strong relativism, the individual self is the ultimate authority, of course.

And ⁓ so we've used the word authenticity, and I think there's lots of ways to read that. One is a sort of ⁓ Charles Taylor ethics of authenticity kind of way, which is really more this sense that we all have our own truths. So how do you navigate that relative to, you know, Christianity having a gospel that is truth and having claims around, ⁓ you know, truth that's larger than just...

you know, my own individual self. is, yes, it's my truth, but it's our truth, right? Right, right. it's a communal truth that's held over generations and all.

Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, think we need each other. And so ⁓ there are, sometimes I worry that some of these conversations when we're talking about generational differences start to like, could fall into a pitfall of like pitting one, like one generation knows more than the other. One has more wisdom, one has more experience, one has a better take on what's happening in the real world. And I don't think any of those things are true. I think all people are people.

and different generations are bringing a different perspective to the reality that we're all trying to navigate based on a whole variety of circumstances. so I still, it sounds like maybe I'm trying to be too simple about it, but I still think it comes back to relationship. And I still think it comes back to being able to hold space for someone that has a different outlook. ⁓

different perspective, different story, different understanding. And if the goal at a minimum can be to understand one another, like I don't have to say, you're right. ⁓ I guess it's all relative. what I've believed for my lifetime about God and Jesus is, you know, I guess I missed out on that. I don't think real relationship requires that of us. And in fact, I think if I did that, if I capitulated that way, I think that would be, that would smell funny.

to a young person. Like they're gonna want me, okay, but tell me why you believe that. And if I've actually set a table and an invitation that is genuinely curious, and I'm really trying to understand, I think that is reciprocated. And yeah.

Yeah, no, and I want to take it ⁓ a little bit further. think part of what being Christian is, is to have Christian practices. Right? We pray, we read scripture, we serve our neighbors. Right? There's a variety of things that we do. We care for each other and our neighbors that are sick. But I also hear, like, don't speak this in the pulpit and then not act it.

Exactly.

Right? So how might you help us think about, from your work, how practicing what we preach around loving neighbor, around seeing brokenness in the world and making a difference, around justice and love that comes out of our Christian tradition and practices, but has maybe had a gap?

in other expressions, because I think that's part of what we're trying to navigate here is we're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, right? There is a gospel, there are some things that are about being a person of faith, but sometimes we haven't always done them in a way that ⁓ is helpful or maybe rings true with actually what the gospel's inviting us into.

Yeah, I do think that back to kind of that, if you're saying one thing, but you're really out, you know, like I think there's a healthy read on when we're being disingenuous in conversation or in the worship space or how community is on Sunday morning versus, you know, the other six days of the week that I think younger folks pay attention to and catch.

I think that where I would start answering that question is that the ways as a congregation, as a pastor, as a leader, as a member to think about embodying that gospel, so we're back to the embodiment, we're back to the way of being, it's gotta be local, it's gotta be contextual. And so you could either be abstaining from like engaging around issues of justice or inclusion or whatever the hot topic is of the day.

Or you could be, you know, saying all the things from the pulpit or putting the right signs in the yard. ⁓ But if it's not landing in the real lives of people in your place, then that's where I think it starts to fall short and the story of the gospel loses its power. ⁓ Sometimes we've talked about like, yes, the gospel is always Jesus and Jesus is going to look different and taste different.

and feel different depending on what that particular bad news is in that person's life, in that community, in that season. And so we have all these massive just, I mean, the world is on fire. And if I go down the rabbit trail, we'll be crying on the podcast. So we won't do that today. But there are so many overwhelming and daunting examples of brokenness and division and heartache and violence in the world.

We can't, it just feels so out of touch. And so sometimes it feels like if I just, like, what do we even do? And this is like, there's like an empowering invitation here to make it about the person right here in my neighborhood or the person sitting right next to me. what is, for whom is your heart breaking, Terry? You know, like, and then let's, let me embody the gospel in response to that. So that's where I would start. I think, ⁓

You know, I could give some examples from some of our congregations about what that has looked like, if that would be helpful. you Holy Trinity Lutheran, which is just kitty corner from the third precinct and anyone from Minneapolis, Minnesota knows that there's a very storied ⁓ violence and, and transformative history there ⁓ in our, civil uprisings that followed George Floyd's murder. ⁓ You know, they

in the most immediate sense became like the first responder on the block because that was their pro, they were so proximate to that work and were supporting people that were protesting and in the neighborhood and became a mutual aid space. So very tangible ways that they embodied Jesus in the midst of that really bad, awful, scary situation that was happening. then on the other,

end of the spectrum, have Grace Episcopal Church ⁓ in South Minneapolis. And for them, was entering, they were losing some of the community spaces. There was a coffee shop that had closed. There was kind of a throughway for people coming through the neighborhood and recognizing in all the listening they had done how much loneliness there was. This is also kind of COVID-ish times. And they just started using their front lawn as a front porch.

doing ice cream every Sunday and starting to talk to the people in their church about how to be in that space. Not to ask, do you want to come to worship or do you want to sign up for a book club? But do you want some ice cream? Can I pet your dog? ⁓ And that is just small, simple things that have just blossomed over the years now into ⁓ them becoming a trustworthy neighbor in that community, even though it hasn't translated. With young adults, with older adults, with dogs, you know.

anyone who likes ice cream or popsicles, and they've got some dairy-free options, I think. ⁓ So it's, but it's hard to do that kind of responsive in the moment, local way, if you're not investing in those relationships.

Well, and it sounds like you first have to listen. And 100%. The contextual nature requires a different starting point. So thank you. It seems like there's a real gift in this moment. If we had for generations this ethos of in America, participating in institutional church was more of a given, just something you did. But now with this generational disengagement from institutional,

Correct.

Yes.

church. ⁓ But this seeking, this curiosity, this openness, and this looking for Jesus and the love of Jesus in ways that are congruent, right, with the communities, lived behavior and the local, that's a great opportunity, it seems, for the church to make a pivot toward how do we actually practice Jesus's way in our local place through relationships, not because we have this great institution, but because

you know, we know people and we're doing the thing, as imperfectly as that might be. So reflect with us a bit about that. Where are you finding hope in this, as much as there's a lot of institutional loss that we see happening, but it seems that the Spirit is also doing something generative in this shift. I wonder if you could also say some practices, because I know that's been a key part of your work.

Right, Okay, well where to start? ⁓ I mean, I think I 100 % agree with your sentiment, Dwight, and you're reframing the anxious energy of congregations in the way you describe that into a much more curious, hopeful, like, wonder what God is actually up to in this. that's, if we can, if some of that baggage of that old way can be unlocked so that we can hold that kind of posture, I think there's so much more that is.

accessible to us, like a bigger imagination can be cultivated with that. you know, some of the practical things, I mean, really this is culture change work. So like the bad news is it just takes a long time and I get very, very ⁓ truthfully, I get that for some congregations or for some congregational members, it feels like there isn't time, you know, like.

I know folks who are in congregations and leading congregations that are looking at the end of the life cycle of their congregation. Like, I know that's real. But we believe in a God that is a resurrection God. so the end of one life cycle of a church does not mean the end of the gospel, the end of community, the end of love and that city block or that rural neighborhood, whatever. And so I think

There's an important practical piece of like, just getting comfortable with that mindset that this is not a quick fix, this doesn't happen overnight. And for a church to really embody that posture and say, okay, something was serving us for many years and now God, we're listening and we can tell that there's something new emerging. We don't know what that is, but we will be faithful. ⁓

you know, the future is unwritten. if that turn, if you can turn that corner, I think there's a lot of reasons to hope for a congregation. Some of the, I think the good news is that churches have a lot of what they need to move down that path, right? Like we have these amazing stories and values that come out of those stories, these core beliefs around ⁓ love, around forgiveness, around abundance. We have so much that

that speaks to ⁓ life and flourishing and good lessons around humility and understanding and that we need each other. So we have these good stories, we have these values, we have people. We have people that know how to love, we have people that know how to be grandmas, they know how to be neighbors. We know how to cook food for folks, we know how to enjoy a meal together. ⁓ Those are the things that we need to

create spaces to do. ⁓ You know, we might need to figure out what needs to be grieved, back to some of earlier conversation, but we know how to grieve. We have a wealth of resources, of scripture, of practices that help us honor the losses in our life and name them as sacred and then bury them and pick up the next chapter.

Yeah.

we have.

We already have relationships. It isn't starting from scratch. Maybe it's the preschool in the church building, or ⁓ maybe it's the church council member who's also a social worker at the school and so has relationships there. We can find the ways that we already have these tethers to community, to neighborhood, and we can just bring that curiosity to those spaces. So we have all of those things.

We don't have to, ⁓ there's not like a secret sauce. You don't have to like send your church council to seminary. I mean, maybe you want them to take some faith lead classes.

Well, what I like is that what you're imagine, what you're inviting us to is to reimagine practices that we have already done. Right. But in brand new ways. Yeah. And to maybe say what, rather than what don't we have or who's not here, to say what we can do. How are ways to connect with the neighborhood and how might we do more of that? Right. Or something. Right. Well, I'd love to follow up on that a little bit because this, in some ways is as simpler than we imagine. Right. But I think one of the places that churches get stuck is

actual espresso machine with good coffee, right, rather than just like bad church coffee. Or maybe the website is actually focused on outsiders, not just insiders. Or the graphic design is more contemporary or the space has been done, know, redone, even if it's just inheriting a traditional space, but doing it in a way that feels more at home, right, for younger generations. So what are you seeing around that and what would be your counsel to churches that are trying to navigate that challenge?

Yeah, I mean, that's, I have like, could go in a couple different directions with that. ⁓ I do think that there is wisdom in the reflection, like it is worth putting some time and effort into that reflective posture as a leadership team, as a congregation. You what are the things we need to grieve? What are the things we maybe have been communicating? ⁓

not intentionally. And some of those might be surface things that ⁓ Martin Luther would say, ⁓ Adiaphora. Am I remembering myself? I think there's wisdom in paying attention to the kind of spaces that we're gathering in and what are we communicating that we don't mean to communicate? Are there lots of pictures of white

Jesus up here that is saying more than we would want it to say in a way that might really be exclusive and offensive and problematic for folks. I also know that addressing some of those kinds of things can be a little bit of a sacred cow. I get that there might be some battles here to navigate or some hard conversations to have.

That's what the reflection space is for. Do that amongst your leadership and figure out what are our values? What is it that we actually do want to be known for? Any age person, but in this neighborhood, what is it that we actually do want to be known for? And how do these various, communications we put out, the space we gather in, how does that reflect those values? So I think I would start there.

in an attempt to be more, to have your authentic values and invitation be ⁓ a through line. And I would discourage from like, if we have a coffee shop, or if we do like pub theology, like young adults will come. Like maybe those are things that would come out of that deeper listening, but don't start that. And even if you don't have young adults in your congregation, I'm sure everybody knows some.

And so, I think even just like the coffees that go for a walk together, that sit down and have lunch and just bring that curious posture to, if there's a genuine curiosity there, like I think having those stories and those voices of the young people you do love and care about is gonna then shape how you think about, ⁓ how you wanna embody those values ⁓ as a community.

I also think you're inviting us to kind of a question that I was thinking about is like, if we were to create ministry today, would we have a church library or whatever? Parlor. Parlor or ⁓ like the weird things, that over the years just happened. And if we like came into our ministries and our buildings and our websites and our communication and go, ⁓ yeah, this is weird.

Right? And then said, OK, if this is what we're hearing, if this is what the neighborhood needs, what would that mean? And I think all kinds of folks that I've heard going, they don't need a preschool. We need a food shelf or whatever. Whatever the thing is by the listening that allows you to reimagine the resources you do have, the people, the physical, the ministry.

Well,

and there's another, there's, mean, that's a part of the picture. ⁓ The other part is you have this community that has gifts and resources, right? And so sometimes we think, we have to just figure out what the community needs from us so that we are, you know, serving God's people. ⁓ it can have an unintentional consequence, even though it comes from a very good place, it can have an unintentional consequence of missing out on actually

a lot of stuff God is up to in the community. so I think there's a real ⁓ wisdom in having like a gifts mindset. ⁓ There's a lovely ⁓ story, Pastor Mike Mather, ⁓ I mentioned him because he's coming to the Twin Cities with a colleague of his, Diamon Harjes, that we'll be hosting at an event at Oxford here in October. ⁓ But he has this wonderful story of their ⁓ Methodist church in ⁓

Indianapolis and how they started doing, rather than asking the folks coming into the food shelf what they needed, they started asking them about their gifts. And there's all these little, like you wouldn't believe all the things that have like the corner that turned. And it's a long story. This is decades of a story that's unfolded. to go to the neighbors and say, what is it that you bring to the, and how can we

support you in sharing your gifts in the community. And so I think that those are the kind, like you asked what gives me hope, that kind of imagination for how to be church gives me a lot of hope. And the stories I know of people that are living into that in big and really small ways really is medicine.

Cool. So let's end with the leadership question. Great. So what could I do now? Right. What would be some first steps if we have lay leaders, if we have, you know, youth workers or pastors that are on this? like, okay, this is the church I really can imagine. Yeah. What would you get them to start?

I really think grief is an important place to tend to. It doesn't need to be the only thing that folks start with, but ⁓ I just had this conversation with a pastor friend ⁓ who actually was curious about using the book in the congregation, maybe in worship in some ways. And ⁓ I think that there's something really powerful about our experiences of grief that really

levels the playing field. And ⁓ I mean, it does so many things, I think, in the context of what we've been talking about, about the changes within the church and the loss that comes with that, perhaps our cultural ⁓ override that doesn't let us do the things that our faith tells us we need to do when we're experiencing loss. ⁓ So I think there's just really important losses to acknowledge that have and will continue to get in the way of.

of meaningful relationship and connection with younger generations. ⁓ But I also think there's just the event that the kind of we convened 50 young adults three years ago that at Augsburg from around the country, different faith perspectives, and they came in ⁓ for a storytelling gathering. And from that event came the 11 chapter topics for the book.

And in that space, like when we started tallying up the themes, grief was like three times bigger than any other theme that came up. And while grief gets its own chapter in the book, ⁓ many of the chapters are reflective of the different ways that young adults are grieving. And we know that we all, on a very personal level, have things going on in our lives that are grief and loss and on a...

church congregational level, certainly on a national level and a global level, right? Like it's just palpable. And it's also a very holy common ground to gather on. And I'll maybe end with just this story, even though I'm not getting to super practical things in response to your question, but ⁓ at this gathering of young adults, we had invited five

folks to be keynote listeners. And they were from different generations, but all older than the 20-somethings at this event. And they were there to just take a pulse, to listen. We gave them a little bit of space at the end of the gathering to reflect back the themes and messages they heard and kind of modeled this, what I think is also part of the work of leaders. And former Bishop Mark Hanson was one of our keynotes.

You know, he came in, I think, ⁓ with a good word he wanted to give to young leaders in the church, wholehearted about some really important things he wanted to be able to communicate. But as he sat with them over two days and listened, his reflections became this holy moment. ⁓ And I get choked up almost every time I talk about it, but... ⁓

He was reflecting on how connected he felt to the grief in the room with his own grief and accompanying ⁓ his wife through dementia and the later stages of her life. She was still living at the time. And there was not a dry eye in the room. And it was just this very powerful image for me of what...

what happens when we create space to have those authentic, vulnerable conversations about how we're grieving. And then that opens up space for so much more. And so ⁓ that is maybe not a pleasant invitation or sounds kind of scary, but I think it actually ⁓ is where we start.

Yeah.

Thank you, Kristina, for sharing so much wisdom with us. And I think hope amidst the grief and the loss that people are experiencing. So the book is called Hungry for Hope. It's got lots of different voices in it. 22 different voices. So thank you for being with us today.

22

Thank you, appreciate the opportunity.

And to our audience, thank you for tuning into this episode of the Pivot podcast. You can help us spread the word about Pivot by liking or subscribing, or of course sharing this episode with a friend. So for this week, this is Terri Elton and Dwight Zscheile signing off.

Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith Lead.