Transcripts
Hi everybody.
Speaker:It's Amy Martin, and I'm really
Speaker:excited to tell you that season
Speaker:five of threshold will be coming
Speaker:out later this year.
Speaker:More on that soon- ish.
Speaker:But I'm also excited about what we
Speaker:have to share with you today.
Speaker:This is a conversation I had
Speaker:recently with author Rebecca Solnit.
Speaker:I imagine a lot of you are already
Speaker:familiar with her work.
Speaker:She's written more than 20 books.
Speaker:Her essays are frequently published
Speaker:in major newspapers and magazines.
Speaker:She has a column in The Guardian.
Speaker:She has the kind of mind that
Speaker:refuses to be siloed.
Speaker:In one essay, she might move from
Speaker:family dynamics to global politics
Speaker:to ecological crisis.
Speaker:But two themes emerge repeatedly
Speaker:in her work.
Speaker:Her fierce commitment to justice
Speaker:and her refusal of cynicism.
Speaker:She has a unique ability to braid
Speaker:the two together.
Speaker:She's a blunt truth teller
Speaker:and also a dogged defender of
Speaker:possibility and promise.
Speaker:One powerful example of this is her
Speaker:essay entitled, "Difficult
Speaker:is not the Same as Impossible."
Speaker:Here are some excerpts from the
Speaker:first few paragraphs:
Speaker:"It is late.
Speaker:We are deep in an emergency,
Speaker:but it's not too late because
Speaker:the emergency is not over.
Speaker:The outcome is not decided.
Speaker:We are deciding it
Speaker:now.
Speaker:An emergency is when a stable
Speaker:situation destabilizes.
Speaker:When the house catches fire, or
Speaker:the dam breaks or institution
Speaker:implodes.
Speaker:When the failure or sudden change
Speaker:or crisis calls for
Speaker:urgent response,
Speaker:it's when it becomes clear that the
Speaker:way things work is
Speaker:not how they're going to be.
Speaker:An emergency can involve terrible
Speaker:loss, or it can bring about
Speaker:magnificent transformation.
Speaker:And while it's unfolding, the
Speaker:outcome can be impossible to
Speaker:foresee.
Speaker:Or it can depend on what you
Speaker:and we do.".
Speaker:I spoke to Rebecca Solnit in April
Speaker:of 2024.
Speaker:I want to talk with you
Speaker:about the earth, about the natural
Speaker:world in lots of different ways.
Speaker:But I guess to start with, I just
Speaker:need to acknowledge that I kind of
Speaker:hate the words the natural world,
Speaker:because as soon as we say them, or
Speaker:nature or the environment,
Speaker:we've immediately set up this
Speaker:conceptual divide of there's
Speaker:us, and then there's everything
Speaker:else, just like the most
Speaker:narcissistic framing ever.
Speaker:And, and yet these
Speaker:are the concepts.
Speaker:You know, I've inherited this is the
Speaker:language we have.
Speaker:And so I'm curious how you
Speaker:think about how we talk
Speaker:about this thing we call the natural
Speaker:world.
Speaker:One thing that your question brings
Speaker:up that I find so interesting
Speaker:is 30
Speaker:or so years ago, people
Speaker:often talked about nature and
Speaker:culture as though they were equal
Speaker:and separate spheres.
Speaker:And that has changed
Speaker:profoundly. I think indigenous
Speaker:and environmental perspectives
Speaker:have reminded us that nothing
Speaker:is outside nature.
Speaker:We can never be independent of
Speaker:nature.
Speaker:So I actually think your question
Speaker:opens up the fact that we've changed
Speaker:that a lot. More and more, we
Speaker:recognize that human beings
Speaker:are biological creatures,
Speaker:not separate from the rest of living
Speaker:nature and the inorganic
Speaker:nature we depend on beyond
Speaker:that. And that shift has actually
Speaker:been one of the really exciting
Speaker:things I've seen in my life.
Speaker:And truly, when
Speaker:I started trying to think
Speaker:about the natural world creatively,
Speaker:intellectually, politically,
Speaker:I was surrounded by people
Speaker:who really talked about, you know,
Speaker:nature is almost optional,
Speaker:or a place you could step into and
Speaker:step out of.
Speaker:It was this finite place with
Speaker:a beyond to it.
Speaker:I remember somebody saying, you
Speaker:don't understand us in New York.
Speaker:Nature is in the past tense.
Speaker:And I used to say, if
Speaker:you're holding one of those paper
Speaker:cups of coffee, people in New York
Speaker:were always holding the papers
Speaker:from trees. The water is from your
Speaker:Adirondacks Watershed Preserve.
Speaker:The milk is from a pastoral
Speaker:landscape. The coffee is from
Speaker:a tropical landscape.
Speaker:Just that cup of coffee is four
Speaker:different natural landscapes
Speaker:in your hand going into your
Speaker:biological body.
Speaker:So learning to see the systems
Speaker:and to think of the world in terms
Speaker:of systems, I think has really
Speaker:undone the nature culture binary,
Speaker:as has acknowledging the presence of
Speaker:indigenous people
Speaker:who weren't at war with nature
Speaker:and trying to live outside it the
Speaker:way industrial civilization so
Speaker:often has.
Speaker:So that's what that question brings
Speaker:up for me, that I think is actually
Speaker:an interesting starting point of
Speaker:how much, although the words
Speaker:remain the same, the way
Speaker:we use them in the way we think has
Speaker:actually changed so
Speaker:much in my lifetime.
Speaker:For the better, I think.
Speaker:Yeah. And I think the reason I
Speaker:wanted to start with language is not
Speaker:because I'm interested in trying
Speaker:to find like, perfect terms
Speaker:because no such thing exists,
Speaker:but because I'm interested
Speaker:in the concepts behind them and what
Speaker:they lead us to and what they close
Speaker:off. And, that's
Speaker:something that I hear you
Speaker:so eloquently make the case for in
Speaker:your work is that thoughts matter.
Speaker:Ideas matter.
Speaker:What we believe in matters.
Speaker:It's not trivial.
Speaker:And it made me wonder if you feel
Speaker:like that concept
Speaker:itself is under threat.
Speaker:If you feel like it has to be
Speaker:defended like that.
Speaker:The idea that beliefs matter
Speaker:is something that people don't
Speaker:believe anymore.
Speaker:I think it is
Speaker:somewhere between threatened and
Speaker:forgotten.
Speaker:I think we live in a world in
Speaker:which a lot of social media, news
Speaker:media, etc.
Speaker:have a really short term time frame.
Speaker:For example, last week
Speaker:the president canceled more student
Speaker:debt.
Speaker:There's a way
Speaker:you can tell that story where it
Speaker:happened last week, a very
Speaker:powerful man gave it to us out
Speaker:of his own free will.
Speaker:There's another story you can tell.
Speaker:Where in 2011,
Speaker:a bunch of people gathered at
Speaker:Zuccotti Park to start
Speaker:Occupy Wall Street, which became
Speaker:a national and international
Speaker:movement focusing on economic
Speaker:injustice and really reframing
Speaker:it in moral terms,
Speaker:economic terms, imaginative
Speaker:terms, and very powerful new ways.
Speaker:Out of that came a movement for debt
Speaker:abolition, focusing on medical
Speaker:debt, housing debt, and particularly
Speaker:student debt.
Speaker:The student debt abolition movement
Speaker:informed the public of how
Speaker:destructive and corrupt
Speaker:and manipulative that system
Speaker:was.
Speaker:So if you take the long term
Speaker:perspective, which I'm often arguing
Speaker:for with the sense that hope
Speaker:and memory are so connected,
Speaker:you can see this began as an idea,
Speaker:a shift in values, a grassroots
Speaker:campaign.
Speaker:What begins as books, stories,
Speaker:slogans often ends
Speaker:up as, you know, laws,
Speaker:policies, actual forests
Speaker:protected, shifts
Speaker:in how we think, how we
Speaker:act, how we legislate,
Speaker:who we protect, what we
Speaker:consider normal.
Speaker:And so much of my work has been
Speaker:tracing that larger process.
Speaker:How did this thing that ended up
Speaker:as legislation, as law, as
Speaker:the protection of this population
Speaker:or this environment, how did that
Speaker:begin in the margins, in the shadows
Speaker:with one person, a few people,
Speaker:a grassroots movement that was seen
Speaker:as extreme,
Speaker:unrealistic?
Speaker:Ridiculous.
Speaker:How did something migrate from
Speaker:the margins to the center,
Speaker:from a radical idea to the
Speaker:way we all think?
Speaker:I and there's a point at which women
Speaker:having the vote, the abolition
Speaker:of slavery, the protection
Speaker:of the environment were all seen as
Speaker:these kind of radical, disruptive
Speaker:ideas in the same way that
Speaker:the end of the fossil fuel industry
Speaker:is. So we're constantly
Speaker:changing, which is another thing
Speaker:that's invisible when you have this
Speaker:short term perspective.
Speaker:So just that whole path of change, I
Speaker:think is tremendously important.
Speaker:And in the world of short term
Speaker:ideas, tremendously
Speaker:under-recognized, so much
Speaker:of my work has been trying to give
Speaker:people back the full
Speaker:trajectory, which I think gives us
Speaker:confidence that what we
Speaker:do matters, a kind of orientation
Speaker:we can't have otherwise,
Speaker:and a sense of hope.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And and I think one of the things
Speaker:that does is
Speaker:it locates us within a
Speaker:problem or within a quest
Speaker:in a really important way.
Speaker:I feel like in a Paradise Built in
Speaker:Hell, but other books as well,
Speaker:you do this great job of
Speaker:encouraging us to
Speaker:think about what we're thinking
Speaker:about ourselves and how that
Speaker:has such an impact on outcomes.
Speaker:And I guess when it comes to
Speaker:climate, I'm curious, what beliefs
Speaker:do we have that are slowing us down,
Speaker:or what's one belief that's really
Speaker:slowing us down that we could get
Speaker:rid of, and another that you would
Speaker:really like to see more people take
Speaker:up?
Speaker:Well, the way I see it is right
Speaker:now, we have a lot of scientists,
Speaker:deeply engaged people, climate
Speaker:organizers, activists,
Speaker:climate journalists, etc.
Speaker:who understand the situation very
Speaker:well. And the only thing impeding us
Speaker:is the fact that we need to be more
Speaker:powerful than the fossil fuel
Speaker:industry and the other
Speaker:vested interests trying to
Speaker:delay, slow down, deny
Speaker:what we need to do.
Speaker:Around the periphery are a lot of
Speaker:people who are less well informed.
Speaker:Often they have factually
Speaker:wrong ideas, but they often also
Speaker:have outdated ideas.
Speaker:There was a point at which we didn't
Speaker:have the solutions.
Speaker:When leaving.
Speaker:The age of fossil fuels behind was
Speaker:impossible.
Speaker:One of the shocking things, I think,
Speaker:because it's so wonderful that so
Speaker:under-recognized, is that wind
Speaker:and solar were really primitive,
Speaker:expensive, inadequate technologies
Speaker:at the turn of the century.
Speaker:We really didn't have
Speaker:what we needed to leave
Speaker:the age of fossil fuel behind.
Speaker:We've had an astounding energy
Speaker:revolution.
Speaker:And, you know, I did an anthology
Speaker:with my coeditor, Thelma Young,
Speaker:Lieutenant, to a book called Not Too
Speaker:Late because literally a lot of
Speaker:less informed people think it's too
Speaker:late. It's not too late.
Speaker:Every 10th of a degree of warming,
Speaker:we can prevent every good
Speaker:climate solution.
Speaker:We can implement matters.
Speaker:I think a lot of people think in all
Speaker:or nothing terms, if we can't save
Speaker:everything, we can't save
Speaker:anything.
Speaker:You know, the perfect, I say
Speaker:often, is the enemy of the good,
Speaker:often a very loud and aggressive
Speaker:enemy of the good.
Speaker:One of the narratives I hear a lot
Speaker:around climate is the tension
Speaker:between doing things fast
Speaker:and doing them fairly, kind of
Speaker:framed as there's people over here
Speaker:who want to do decarbonization
Speaker:as fast as they possibly can.
Speaker:There's people over here saying,
Speaker:yes, but we need it to be inclusive.
Speaker:We need it to include indigenous
Speaker:rights, human rights more broadly,
Speaker:justice.
Speaker:And I'm seeing more and more a
Speaker:story of like, which one are we
Speaker:going to choose?
Speaker:And I.
Speaker:I always react against
Speaker:binaries like that.
Speaker:And yet I have myself reported
Speaker:on some cases where
Speaker:there is some real tension between
Speaker:larger justice issues and climate
Speaker:issues. And I wonder what you think
Speaker:about that framing overall
Speaker:and kind of how you relate to
Speaker:to those sorts of questions.
Speaker:I think that there are lots of
Speaker:individual situations in which
Speaker:groups are pitted against each
Speaker:other. More vulnerable and less
Speaker:vulnerable groups, whether it's
Speaker:around extracting materials
Speaker:are and manufacturing them for
Speaker:renewables or where they get
Speaker:cited, etc.
Speaker:but often it's the other way around
Speaker:and, you know, there's money to
Speaker:be made in siting solar and wind
Speaker:on your property.
Speaker:And a lot of native reservations
Speaker:are eagerly taking it up.
Speaker:And the Navajo reservation has
Speaker:a lot of people who've never had
Speaker:electricity because they're so
Speaker:remote.
Speaker:So I think it's it's sometimes a
Speaker:false binary and a and that also
Speaker:a lot of times it's just a question
Speaker:of whether you do those things, but
Speaker:how you do those things.
Speaker:And we I think we can do those
Speaker:things fast and we can do them
Speaker:right. But I also think underlying
Speaker:that, we're constantly being
Speaker:given a narrative of scarcity.
Speaker:Underlying that is the idea that we
Speaker:live in an age of abundance and what
Speaker:climate requires offices,
Speaker:austerity, sacrifice, renunciation.
Speaker:And I think you can turn that upside
Speaker:down in so many ways.
Speaker:We live in an era of austerity.
Speaker:The wealthiest 1% of human beings
Speaker:have a bigger climate impact than
Speaker:the poorest 66%
Speaker:of humanity.
Speaker:So it's not all of us benefiting
Speaker:from this environmental destruction.
Speaker:And what we actually need to do for
Speaker:the climate could bring on an
Speaker:age of abundance.
Speaker:You know, I think we're really poor
Speaker:right now and hope were
Speaker:poor and relationships were poor
Speaker:in social trust and solidarity.
Speaker:What we actually need to do
Speaker:in the big picture, I
Speaker:think, benefits everyone in
Speaker:a lot of different ways.
Speaker:And we need to see that
Speaker:we can do what we need to do in
Speaker:solidarity with farmers
Speaker:in Bangladesh, with indigenous
Speaker:people in the Arctic, with
Speaker:indigenous people in the tropics,
Speaker:with island dwellers in the South
Speaker:Pacific.
Speaker:And that, in a sense,
Speaker:despair giving up for
Speaker:those of us who have options is a
Speaker:form of loss of solidarity
Speaker:as well as often the
Speaker:result of conclusions
Speaker:reached from misinformation,
Speaker:disinformation, or
Speaker:lack of careful enough attention
Speaker:to the information that what we do
Speaker:right now matters.
Speaker:We'll have more with Rebecca Solnit
Speaker:after this short break.
Speaker:Welcome back to my conversation with
Speaker:author and activist Rebecca Solnit.
Speaker:One of her most influential books
Speaker:is A Paradise Built in Hell,
Speaker:published in 2009.
Speaker:In it, she examines the behavior
Speaker:of communities ravaged by disaster,
Speaker:fires, earthquakes, terrorism.
Speaker:And she makes the case that these
Speaker:catastrophes can open
Speaker:up opportunities for people to
Speaker:discover strengths in themselves
Speaker:and the people around them that they
Speaker:didn't know they had.
Speaker:I wanted to explore this paradox
Speaker:with her in this time of
Speaker:multiple intersecting disasters.
Speaker:I mean, there's so many different
Speaker:dimensions of it.
Speaker:We're now recognizing that the
Speaker:natural world is indeed fragile,
Speaker:and we've broken a lot
Speaker:of it in ways that are dangerous.
Speaker:But I think there's a narrative
Speaker:about human fragility that is not
Speaker:helpful.
Speaker:If you believe you're terribly
Speaker:fragile, you may respond
Speaker:to harm in a different way.
Speaker:If you believe that your trauma is
Speaker:your identity, it's very
Speaker:hard to say, well, I got over that
Speaker:trauma, you know,
Speaker:and I think there's a way that
Speaker:trauma is often made into
Speaker:a kind of badge legitimizing
Speaker:you. We're in a world.
Speaker:We're in a I'm in the progressive
Speaker:world. I think we're very suspicious
Speaker:of power.
Speaker:So a lot of people run around
Speaker:pretending they don't have power,
Speaker:that they're they're oppressed and
Speaker:not the oppressor.
Speaker:And I think it's possible, actually,
Speaker:to have power and try and use
Speaker:it for good.
Speaker:And knowing what power you have is
Speaker:really important so that you can
Speaker:use it. You can be a
Speaker:creative, constructive participant.
Speaker:But my friend Roshi Joan Halifax
Speaker:talks about post-traumatic growth
Speaker:that often the most difficult things
Speaker:that happen to us shape
Speaker:us. But what we do with those
Speaker:experiences is partly up to us.
Speaker:They can give us deeper empathy for
Speaker:other people.
Speaker:To who these things happen.
Speaker:They can make us more politically
Speaker:engaged.
Speaker:They can make us find our own
Speaker:strength and resilience.
Speaker:And I think that often
Speaker:repair, regrowth,
Speaker:regeneration, resilience
Speaker:are possible.
Speaker:I have heard people on the
Speaker:frontlines of climate being tired
Speaker:of being told that they're resilient
Speaker:because it can seem like, suck it
Speaker:up, you know, ignore
Speaker:the damage.
Speaker:And there's a huge amount of damage,
Speaker:whether it's child abuse or climate
Speaker:devastation, that we need to do
Speaker:everything we can to prevent
Speaker:from happening.
Speaker:But we also need to recognize
Speaker:that when damage
Speaker:is done, there's often many roads
Speaker:forward.
Speaker:Sometimes I see the
Speaker:what feels to me like a kind
Speaker:of a fetishization of
Speaker:of the fragility that we have,
Speaker:though just attaching to it as an
Speaker:identity, almost as a reaction,
Speaker:especially in the U.S., against
Speaker:centuries long denial of
Speaker:vulnerability.
Speaker:You know that we have this history
Speaker:of like always having to
Speaker:position ourselves as, you know,
Speaker:the biggest, the toughest, the
Speaker:strongest, the hero.
Speaker:But what I'm trying to figure out is
Speaker:how can we create a space where
Speaker:we can recognize how vulnerable
Speaker:we are, how vulnerable
Speaker:we're making ourselves by
Speaker:disrupting the climate, among other
Speaker:things, without kind of falling
Speaker:into a cult of fragility.
Speaker:And that's the place where I feel
Speaker:like your work directs us toward as
Speaker:some kind of third space where
Speaker:we can say and see
Speaker:the losses, the damage, the
Speaker:vulnerability, be honest about it.
Speaker:But then where we can
Speaker:be generative, where new stories
Speaker:can grow and where that's not
Speaker:where we just stay stuck.
Speaker:How do we start imagining
Speaker:new stories to come out of that
Speaker:space that are neither the
Speaker:apocalypse or utopia,
Speaker:but something more realistic
Speaker:and has more, more possibilities?
Speaker:And I grew up in an era where women
Speaker:were told to just suck it up, and
Speaker:you had no sense of humor if you saw
Speaker:thought being groped, harassed,
Speaker:threatened, stalked, even
Speaker:raped, wasn't funny.
Speaker:And, you
Speaker:know, be cool, and
Speaker:don't make waves, etc..
Speaker:So I think it's, you know,
Speaker:really important to recognize
Speaker:these things are terribly harmful.
Speaker:They're not okay.
Speaker:And to hear those stories, one of
Speaker:the most influential things in this
Speaker:regard is a very powerful piece,
Speaker:the nature writer environmental
Speaker:writer Barry Lopez wrote in
Speaker:the LA weekly in the 1990s.
Speaker:He grew up in the San Fernando
Speaker:Valley, just north of LA proper,
Speaker:with a single mom, passionately
Speaker:in love with the landscape and
Speaker:horrifically traumatized by
Speaker:a friend of his mother's, pretending
Speaker:to be a doctor who sexually abused
Speaker:him for years and terrorized
Speaker:him to keep him silent
Speaker:and filled him with deep shame as
Speaker:well as the physical and psychic
Speaker:abuse.
Speaker:And so Barry, who was
Speaker:a friend of mine and a
Speaker:huge influence on me earlier
Speaker:with his book Arctic Dreams and some
Speaker:of his other writing, did some
Speaker:remarkable things in this story.
Speaker:And the two that I
Speaker:think really matter in this context
Speaker:was one he talked about what
Speaker:helped him survive.
Speaker:It wasn't just that a terrible thing
Speaker:happened to me, but that
Speaker:his homing pigeons, the landscape,
Speaker:his ability to roam through it
Speaker:freely on his bicycle, the
Speaker:joy he took in that open water and
Speaker:land really
Speaker:lifted his spirit at a time
Speaker:that his spirit was also being
Speaker:crushed.
Speaker:And he was also
Speaker:telling us that, speaking
Speaker:from the position of someone who
Speaker:grew up to be a remarkable
Speaker:and gifted writer who had in
Speaker:many ways a rich and meaningful
Speaker:life, full of adventures,
Speaker:contact conversations, deep
Speaker:relationships to indigenous people
Speaker:in the Arctic and elsewhere, to
Speaker:scientists, to animals,
Speaker:to the natural world.
Speaker:An enviable life in many respects,
Speaker:and I think he was trying to say in
Speaker:that that it can damage you,
Speaker:but it doesn't end your life.
Speaker:It does terminate you.
Speaker:I think he acknowledged that there
Speaker:are many kinds of suffering
Speaker:all around and that,
Speaker:you know, girls and women
Speaker:particularly experienced sexual
Speaker:abuse.
Speaker:But, you know, so do boys
Speaker:and sometimes men.
Speaker:And so also saying, my, my
Speaker:suffering is not unique.
Speaker:And to see it in the framework
Speaker:of empathy,
Speaker:I think is really important.
Speaker:It makes it less lonely.
Speaker:So many people have had this
Speaker:experience.
Speaker:We need to recognize it happens
Speaker:a lot, and we're hearing
Speaker:it in other ways now with the
Speaker:stories about,
Speaker:Native American and,
Speaker:First Nation boarding schools in the
Speaker:U.S. and Canada, the sexual
Speaker:abuse there.
Speaker:So Berry did those two things,
Speaker:recognizing that the
Speaker:terrible things that happen to you
Speaker:don't stop the wonderful
Speaker:things that happen to you, which can
Speaker:help you deal with those other
Speaker:things, and that it doesn't
Speaker:make you unusual.
Speaker:It makes you part of, tragically,
Speaker:a very large, part
Speaker:of the population.
Speaker:So I think that framework is really
Speaker:useful.
Speaker:And I'm not saying that there isn't
Speaker:real oppression and it's tremendous
Speaker:around transphobia, homophobia,
Speaker:ableism, racism,
Speaker:misogyny and, you
Speaker:know, ageism and a host of other
Speaker:things, but
Speaker:just that every story we tell
Speaker:has consequences.
Speaker:And finding our strengths,
Speaker:I think, can be a tremendous
Speaker:blessing for
Speaker:our inner psychic lives
Speaker:and for our ability to participate.
Speaker:We're going to take another short
Speaker:break and then come back with the
Speaker:rest of my conversation with Rebecca
Speaker:Solnit.
Speaker:In her book Men Explain Things
Speaker:to Me. Published in 2014,
Speaker:Rebecca Solnit wrote, "I'm
Speaker:grateful that after an early life
Speaker:of being silenced, sometimes
Speaker:violently, I grew up to have
Speaker:a voice.
Speaker:Circumstances that will always buy
Speaker:me to the rights of the voiceless."
Speaker:Rebecca describes herself as a
Speaker:battered child.
Speaker:She says she spent long hours
Speaker:outdoors, in part to escape
Speaker:the violence in her home.
Speaker:Her other refuge was books.
Speaker:I was always in love with stories as
Speaker:soon as I was a person who had
Speaker:language.
Speaker:As soon as I learned how to read
Speaker:early in first grade,
Speaker:books became so magical because
Speaker:reading was the ability
Speaker:to unlock the treasures
Speaker:within every book.
Speaker:And I pretty quickly decided
Speaker:that first year that I wanted to
Speaker:write books, but I didn't really
Speaker:think about what that meant.
Speaker:It was my final career choice
Speaker:that I'd never really wavered
Speaker:from.
Speaker:Nobody around me when I was growing
Speaker:up had big ambitions for me.
Speaker:I was often told that I wasn't going
Speaker:to amount to much,
Speaker:and that I should aim low and my
Speaker:ambitions.
Speaker:My mother would.
Speaker:Even when I was getting awards,
Speaker:you know, in my 40s, my
Speaker:mother would say, this is all such
Speaker:a surprise. You were just a mousy
Speaker:little thing.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:Thanks, mom.
Speaker:Yeah. And,
Speaker:you know, so it's been surprising.
Speaker:It's been it's been complicated.
Speaker:I have to remind myself that most
Speaker:people on earth feel
Speaker:under-recognized and unheard,
Speaker:and that there are
Speaker:ways in my personal life I can feel
Speaker:that way. But as a, you know, as
Speaker:a writer who gets platforms
Speaker:like The Guardian newspaper,
Speaker:Harper's Magazine,
Speaker:at, this podcast,
Speaker:I am very well heard in other
Speaker:ways, and I have a lot of
Speaker:credibility which young women
Speaker:often don't have and I didn't have
Speaker:as a young woman.
Speaker:I feel that it also
Speaker:imposes tremendous responsibility,
Speaker:you know, and that I must use my
Speaker:superpowers for good.
Speaker:Well, I know we need to head towards
Speaker:wrapping up, and I want to bring us
Speaker:back to climate.
Speaker:You're such a great storyteller, and
Speaker:you also have so many things to say
Speaker:about why we need
Speaker:better stories, different stories.
Speaker:And I think one of the real
Speaker:challenges of the climate crisis is
Speaker:the challenge it presents.
Speaker:On the story front.
Speaker:I think for a lot of people, it
Speaker:feels a little bit like sitting
Speaker:through the worst doctor's
Speaker:appointment in the world where they
Speaker:know there's a bad diagnosis
Speaker:coming, but it seems to take like
Speaker:decades to just
Speaker:just tell me the thing.
Speaker:I feel like that might be one of the
Speaker:reasons why people tend to gravitate
Speaker:toward an apocalyptic narrative is
Speaker:it's just like it's easier
Speaker:to know something.
Speaker:So I will imagine everything
Speaker:crumbling.
Speaker:Societies falling apart and
Speaker:everyone, you know, going after each
Speaker:other in the most terrible way.
Speaker:Because at least then I have
Speaker:something to like hold on to.
Speaker:And not just this what is happening.
Speaker:It's so disorienting.
Speaker:And yet that isn't going to solve
Speaker:it. We can't just sit here and keep
Speaker:reimagining the apocalypse.
Speaker:And I just want to read back to you
Speaker:a sentence that you said that I
Speaker:think really gets to the heart of
Speaker:the matter. You said.
Speaker:We're not very good at telling
Speaker:stories about 100 people doing
Speaker:things, or considering that the
Speaker:qualities that matter in saving a
Speaker:valley or changing the world
Speaker:are mostly not physical courage
Speaker:and violent clashes, but
Speaker:the ability to coordinate and
Speaker:inspire and connect with lots
Speaker:of other people and create stories
Speaker:about what could be and how
Speaker:we get there.
Speaker:I so agree with you.
Speaker:And I also think those are stories
Speaker:that are harder to tell.
Speaker:Those are stories that are not going
Speaker:to get you a Netflix deal.
Speaker:So, how
Speaker:do we tell those stories in ways
Speaker:that really reach a lot
Speaker:of people?
Speaker:I think they're told in a lot of
Speaker:nonfiction books.
Speaker:One that comes to mind is my friend
Speaker:Adam Hochshield's Bury the Chains,
Speaker:about how a dozen Quaker men
Speaker:in the 1770s decided
Speaker:to try and abolish slavery in the
Speaker:British Empire, which for
Speaker:an already marginalized religious
Speaker:minority could seem completely
Speaker:ridiculous. But one of them lived to
Speaker:see it through.
Speaker:And, of course, enslaved and
Speaker:formerly enslaved people and other
Speaker:people were already trying to do
Speaker:that. But we do need those
Speaker:stories, because we're besieged with
Speaker:superhero stories in
Speaker:which most of us are ordinary
Speaker:rabble. We're powerless, we're
Speaker:selfish, we're petty, we're
Speaker:short sighted.
Speaker:If we're not actually
Speaker:venal. We also see this in stories
Speaker:about disasters and the terrible
Speaker:Hollywood disaster movies.
Speaker:So we need the ubermensch, the
Speaker:superhero who's exceptional
Speaker:to save us. And he's usually some
Speaker:muscly young dude
Speaker:who's also a loner,
Speaker:you know, some kind of Superman,
Speaker:Batman, Spiderman figure.
Speaker:And the truth is, the world is
Speaker:changed by people
Speaker:who in some sense are very ordinary
Speaker:but are very stubborn.
Speaker:And as that sentence from the
Speaker:essay, when the hero is the problem
Speaker:describes, the skills
Speaker:are often the ability to,
Speaker:you know, organize your skills to
Speaker:inspire, motivate people, help
Speaker:them find common ground, help them
Speaker:find hope and power, and engage
Speaker:and do the work and see that that
Speaker:the work will take us where we want
Speaker:to go.
Speaker:That's not the story we hear.
Speaker:But as for the fatalism,
Speaker:there's two things about that.
Speaker:There's one that's specific to
Speaker:climate, which is I spend
Speaker:a lot of time reading what climate
Speaker:scientists and climate activists
Speaker:have to say.
Speaker:None of them are despondent.
Speaker:None of them have given up.
Speaker:All of them recognize we're in a
Speaker:very grave and dangerous situation.
Speaker:All of them recognize that
Speaker:we're in a what I call the decade of
Speaker:decision. What we do right now
Speaker:matters tremendously, not
Speaker:for the next 10 or 100 years, for
Speaker:the next 10,000 years,
Speaker:and that the difference between the
Speaker:best and worst case situation
Speaker:is profound for many places,
Speaker:many species, many human
Speaker:populations.
Speaker:They also recognize that we
Speaker:can't save everything.
Speaker:But that doesn't mean we can't save
Speaker:nothing, that there
Speaker:will be inevitable losses.
Speaker:But there's also a lot
Speaker:that can be saved and protected
Speaker:if we do what we should do.
Speaker:But then there's a larger context I
Speaker:want to talk about.
Speaker:There's a book by the Buddhist
Speaker:teacher Pema Chadron
Speaker:called Comfortable with Uncertainty,
Speaker:which I find such a powerful title
Speaker:because actually, where most of us
Speaker:are not very comfortable with
Speaker:uncertainty, we want
Speaker:to know what's going to happen.
Speaker:And I find that people get attached
Speaker:to dumber ism, defeatism,
Speaker:despair, cynicism
Speaker:as a form of certainty.
Speaker:Oh, we can't possibly win.
Speaker:It will never work.
Speaker:We're all going to die.
Speaker:There's nothing we can do.
Speaker:For those of us who live fairly
Speaker:safe and comfortable lives, it
Speaker:means nothing is demanded of us.
Speaker:If we give up, we relatively safe
Speaker:people just have to stay home and be
Speaker:bitter and cynical.
Speaker:Which is, I don't think, a
Speaker:particularly pleasant job, but a
Speaker:really easy one.
Speaker:And so I see this tendency
Speaker:that comes, I think, from two big
Speaker:habits in American
Speaker:storytelling, one of which is
Speaker:a false story about the nature of
Speaker:power that it resides in a very few
Speaker:individuals who are rich or
Speaker:famous or hold political
Speaker:positions.
Speaker:But we have innumerable examples
Speaker:the civil rights movement, the
Speaker:abolitionist movements, the women's
Speaker:movement, the environmental movement
Speaker:showing that we
Speaker:ordinary people as
Speaker:grassroots movements, civil society,
Speaker:are so tremendously powerful.
Speaker:People often have a very short term
Speaker:version of how change works, and
Speaker:I call it instant results
Speaker:guaranteed, or your money back,
Speaker:like those like those silly mail
Speaker:order products and advertisements
Speaker:in my youth, you know, they really
Speaker:think if you have a protest on
Speaker:Tuesday and all the politicians
Speaker:don't say we were wrong and
Speaker:you were right, and you're getting
Speaker:exactly what you asked for right
Speaker:away, they think that if you don't
Speaker:get that, you don't get anything.
Speaker:There are so many movements
Speaker:that accomplish incredibly
Speaker:important things.
Speaker:It often takes a long time.
Speaker:It took 11 years to stop the
Speaker:Keystone XL pipeline.
Speaker:All those 11 years, people told
Speaker:us we were wasting our time.
Speaker:We would never win.
Speaker:And there were 11 years in which we
Speaker:didn't win.
Speaker:Harvard finally divested from
Speaker:fossil fuels. For ten years, the
Speaker:student movement looked like
Speaker:it was losing because it hadn't won.
Speaker:And then they won.
Speaker:You spent a lot of time not
Speaker:achieving your goal before you
Speaker:achieve your goal.
Speaker:Change takes time.
Speaker:It doesn't happen in predictable,
Speaker:linear ways.
Speaker:Sometimes it's like tension building
Speaker:up to the earthquake.
Speaker:So change often happens
Speaker:in indirect and unpredictable ways.
Speaker:It often takes a while.
Speaker:It often happens because of people
Speaker:who are dismissed and trivialized.
Speaker:And so we need good stories
Speaker:about change in power, which
Speaker:give you a different
Speaker:kind of certainty, the certainty
Speaker:that you don't know what's going to
Speaker:happen. But at least you have some
Speaker:really good models and templates
Speaker:from the past.
Speaker:And so I think uncertainty
Speaker:can actually be
Speaker:indistinguishable ultimately
Speaker:from possibility.
Speaker:It's possible that terrible things
Speaker:will happen.
Speaker:It's also possible that wonderful
Speaker:things can happen.
Speaker:We are making the future in the
Speaker:present. So what we do now
Speaker:and in the near future matters
Speaker:tremendously for the long term.
Speaker:I think there's hope in that.
Speaker:There's power in that, and there's a
Speaker:real understanding that
Speaker:uncertainty is a
Speaker:blessing and not a curse.
Speaker:And so we also need good stories
Speaker:to do that.
Speaker:Well, Rebecca Solnit, thank you
Speaker:so very much for your time
Speaker:and all your thoughts and all your
Speaker:work in this, the skills in the
Speaker:imaginative space that you are
Speaker:bringing to to this really
Speaker:intense time in human history.
Speaker:I know I personally have benefited
Speaker:so much from your work and will
Speaker:continue to.
Speaker:You're welcome.
Speaker:As do millions of others.
Speaker:This episode was edited by Erika
Speaker:Janik with help from Sam Moore.
Speaker:The music was by Todd Sickafoose.
Speaker:Special thanks to Ben Trefny from
Speaker:KALW in San Francisco.
