On this weeks episode we speak to Jennifer Stein, a freelance Producer/ Director and Viviana Tellas, a Theatre Director and Curator about leadership & Creativity within the arts.

Both share a number of tips and insights they have learnt along their journeys as women in the Arts and how to lead as a Director.

Julia Middleton 0:01

Julia Middleton 0:42

Welcome, welcome. Welcome Julian Middleton, expedition leader. Last week, we talked to leaders of movements about, I don't know, it was fascinating to my mind, about how you develop the ability to tell stories, that means that you can change narratives and the ability to pace how you're leading a movement, when to speed up, when to slow down, when to spot when you're in the way. Fascinating. Previous week, we talked to leaders who are midwives, again, I was intrigued, you know, midwives in the room are such strong leaders. Absolutely, clearly in the leadership position. And then as soon as they move outside that room, the entire sort of outside world of health and of society doesn't take them even remotely seriously, or regard them as leaders. And how do you cope with that as a midwife? So I think this theme of looking at, at experts in, in specific areas, leaders in specific areas. So this week, let's talk to two women who are theatre directors, and therefore, real experts at leading creative processes. I'm sure it's not completely different kind of leadership, but I'm quite sure we can learn from them on, on, as I say, creativity and creating the right atmosphere and being the right kind of leader so that it happens. The first one is Jennifer, who is a theatre director in Canada. And the second person is Vivi, who is a theatre director in Argentina. I think it's quite interesting, isn't it, because people think about the the creative process as chaotic. And creativity is indeed chaotic, especially if you're an outsider and you walk in on it, it appears to be massively chaotic. And yet, of course, in theatre, all this chaos is incredibly, carefully done so that it focuses in on a very, very, very clear deadline, which is when the curtain goes up, or when the actors walk on stage. And so, so it's a period of chaos. But it's part of a process that has incredible structure and very clear deadlines. But but for now, let's concentrate on the creative moments, starting with Jennifer.

Julia Middleton 3:44

Jennifer, so you, you you enter the creative space with a deep, deep, deep confidence, don't you? You are believing in yourself.

Jennifer 3:57

Absolutely believing that you're going to get to somewhere really great. You know, it's a little bit of an act of faith and knowing that not only do you enter the room with your accumulated life experience, so does everyone else. And and that's where the magic comes, that it's harnessing all of that. If, if that makes sense.

Julia Middleton 4:20

So you're not the boss, you're the leader. And at the beginning, your job was to be the boss.

Jennifer 4:27

Exactly, particularly when I began my career as a young director in theatre. Because I entered that profession as a stage manager. That's how I apprenticed. So I had seen all of these extremely charismatic, but extremely forceful, male directors, that's all I saw as I was coming up, you know, in my industry. I sort of took all of that in and watched it and thought, well, that's, that's how you direct you know, you you come in to the room and you tell anyone how it's going to be. When I was a stage manager, a very young stage... I was probably still an apprentice. A director, you know, we used to look at ___ of this, you know, little miniature representations of the stage design, that was usually part of the first day of rehearsal. And throughout the rehearsal process, this particular director used the little cardboard people on the model, to tell people how each scene was going to go. So he would move them around. So you know, you're gonna come in here, and then you're gonna do this, and then you're gonna go here, and then everyone's...and he would be moving all the little people. It was probably one of the first rehearsal processes I've ever been involved in. And I was like, wow, I have no idea this is how it works. That didn't work.

Julia Middleton 5:52

So you find your own way of getting getting there, did you and and it didn't involve standing still?

Jennifer 6:01

In the early stages of rehearsal, I might move around, because I want to see what's going on. I want to see each performer's face or see what they're experiencing. And maybe I'm just positing this, but maybe there's something you know, positive about not being in a static position, while you're watching everybody else, really physically engaged. And that's something I just learned on an instinctive level that it's somehow better to be not just sitting there. But you know, you're energised as well.

Julia Middleton 6:39

And you're sort of absorbing the personalities?

Jennifer 6:44

Yes, well, I would say you're being curious about the personalities, as opposed to absorbing them, because you do want to be able to, you do want to be able to leave rehearsal unencumbered by everyone else's emotion. You don't want to take it in, and you learn that I find as a creative person, you learn that particularly through the audition process, because I would, end the day of auditions, exhausted, like completely drained. And I realised it was because I was absorbing everybody's desire, everybody's needs to get that role, everybody's anxiety. I was, I was taking it on. And you can't do that. So you can be sensitive to what people are feeling, you can regard it carefully, and observe, but not take it in. Because I think also then you you lose your vision, you lose your objectivity if you're taking all of that in.

Julia Middleton 7:42

You know, I interviewed some, a group of midwives in a previous podcast, and they said, you have to have empathy, not sympathy.

Jennifer 7:53

Yeah, 100%,

Julia Middleton 7:56

I'm sure you have to understand that there are very, very different voices in the room,

Jennifer 8:01

You have to be able to amplify the voices that are sort of carrying us along, that are contributing. And be wary of the voices that are, I don't want to say destructive, that's, that's not fair. But you have to be wary of anything that is really bringing the process to a standstill. Sometimes it has to come to a standstill, though, sometimes it does, sometimes it does. And sometimes you know, the best thing you can do is, sometimes the best thing you can do is say wow, you brought up something really huge. It may only affect you, your your performance individually. So let's schedule some time for you and I to you know, to spend time together and and work through it. Because you have to be careful how it affects the whole group dynamic too.

Julia Middleton 8:57

Because the quiet people very often have a lot to say.

Jennifer 9:01

Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

Julia Middleton 9:05

And then the other one is, is this concept of letting, letting the splinter groups go. And, and letting the process breathe.

Jennifer 9:16

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, to, you know, continue that concept is, you know, what are you giving oxygen to, you know, so that certain things aren't bursting into flames? You know, it is, I find, as you know, when you're, especially when you're in a collaborative creation and that process, you have to let it run its course. Certain things just, you know, they just have to happen and you have to work through it. I mean, you cannot. I learned early on you just you can't come into the process with everything mapped out. The whole point is that it's a process of discovery. And the whole point is that you have to get to a place where the artists own this piece. They have the ownership of it.

How much do you bend for people? And how much do you not?

Very, very interesting. The answer is you have to leave your ego out of the process, because you have to understand the impact of some of the demands they're making. Because, honestly, Julia, nine times out of 10, it doesn't matter. Yes, I will absolutely, if I know deep in my bones, that this particular choice is critical to the whole of a project, then we're gonna have to resolve that. And I'll, and I'll express that. If it's a something that is a small variation on what you had originally envisioned, and it's not going to disrupt anything else, and it's going to be fine. And you can take that moment to sort of, you have to be able to take that moment to step back and say, you know, that's fine. Then it's fine. What's what's difficult in that the challenge in that is that you can feel like you're stepping into the abyss because there's no plan, there's no, you know, yes, there's lots of planning in advance and the planning, the planning phase of a, of a, of a piece of live art is wonderful, because you're collaborating with the designers, and, you know, envisioning everything. But then when you get into the hall, there are certain things that just, it's ephemeral. So how do you know you're doing it right? I mean, this was this is what you encounter when you first begin as a creative collaborator, well, how do you know it's right? Well, you learn, you know, through trial and error. And you have to, you know, you have to have trust, you have to have trust in the work that you're doing. I mean, I used to call it almost like the goalpost theory of creating, it's like, we know, we have to be within these two places. But there are a million different ways to get there, you know, you can go anywhere within, you know, that within that structure. Again, it comes back to faith, it just comes back to faith and confidence.

And being open to the moments of surprise, where you suddenly you think you're gonna get between the two goalposts this way, and someone does it a completely different way, and you suddenly go "they were right".

Yes. Well, that's why you're in the room with them, right? That is exactly why you're in the room with them. It's the best, you know, like I said, you go through that planning phase, and it's, it's really fun, the planning phase is fantastic. You know, when you envision all of these, oh, it's going to look like this, and this is, the set is going to do this and the costumes, you're going to do that. And it's really fun. And then you go into rehearsal, and someone does something amazing. And you go, I never, I never imagined that. But you, but you know, that it's brilliant. And you know, it's going to work. And that really start that can start as early as the casting process, where you've envisioned, who you think, would be an ideal person to play that part. And then someone walks into the room who is 180 degrees from what you imagined, and you go, Oh, yes. Wow.

That's your job as a leader, is it? It's to go, yes.

absolutely. I think we've grown up with a very old paradigm of leadership that's very protective, you know, very, armoured. And I'm not here to prescribe it one way or the other for anyone else. But it never worked for me, the more the more protective I became, the less effective creatively I became. I mean, and I had to I had to accept that I had to learn.

Yes, the, the job of the leader is also to say no, sometimes.

Yes, absolutely. And it can't be that, you know, it just can't be that fraught, you know, as it is in life, you know, as we learn in life, you know, saying no doesn't have to be so fraught with, you know, fear and concern and, you know, anticipating you know, a negative response. One of the favourite things I've ever saw a director say. He said as a joke that made me laugh. He was talking to actress. "You know, that part where you went "___" The actress said, "Yeah. Yeah." He said, "don't do that." Well, that was easy. And everyone laughed, and no one's feelings were hurt. And you know, and then of course, they went on to discuss what they would do. Listen, the best three words you can ever utter in the creative process is let's try it. There's nothing lost, right? Yeah, let's try it. What are you doing? You're validating other people's participation. Sure, let's try it. You might already know, in your mind how do you feel about it. Doesn't matter. Let's try it.

I'm gonna come back to let your personality fill the room because I think having spoken to you, I think your personality does fill the room. It's just, it's not filling the room with a big noise.

Yes, I and there is, you know, there is quiet leadership, and there is sort of slow and steady leadership, which is sometimes called for, so that it's not not a big splash at the beginning. Particularly I find, if you're working with new people, if you're, if you're working with new collaborators, it's it's best to sometimes to begin the process quietly, and sort of let your presence, not your presence, let your I don't know, let your participation, you know, you kind of just let it grow. You know, sometimes you don't have to come in really big and really, sort of, here's the deal. You know, sometimes you have to let people learn who you are, through your actions, through your decisions. And you build trust that way. You know, it also speaks to that whole thing. And I think this is a, I think for many of us, you know, we have all struggled with wanting to be liked. Right? You know, and I think that within leadership, I think that can be a struggle. You want you want people to like you. You want to feel their affection, particularly in an emotionally open environment like this, you know. That that can't be the arbiter of your decisions. I want you to like me. I will tell you the worst experiences I've had, you know, making, making theatre were when I was making decisions based on wanting people to like me. I mean, you have to learn that lesson pretty pretty quickly.

Give me an example.

Oh, you know, like, you know, letting people run roughshod over you a little bit, you know, well, we're gonna do it like this. Okay, yeah, that's great. You know, like, you know, what's interesting, it's almost like, you have to learn the same lessons, again, in a different context. When I began in theatre, as a stage manager, I learned that lesson. Nobody... don't don't make these decisions because you want people to like you or else you're gonna have a train wreck on your hands, you know, in terms of mastering this production, you know, you know, onto the stage, as a stage manager, you have to be really...you have to be very decisive and resolute, and it doesn't matter whether they like you a lot. And guess what they're gonna like you if you do a good job, so don't worry about it. And, you know, I had to sort of figure all of that out as a young woman. And interestingly, I had to relearn it as a director. It's not like I brought it with me, you know, from stage management. I didn't, because it was a completely different experience. Which is interesting, right? So I had to learn it again, as a director. So so being able to say, I was wrong. I don't know. Oh, my gosh, I used to have dreams. You know, the actor's nightmare. You know, where, you know, the classic actor's nightmare scene where you're on stage. You don't know what play it is or what the lines are. And the lights go on. And the curtain goes up. Well, the director;s nightmare I used to have was standing in a room full of artists saying I don't know. And they're all going well, you have to know, well, I don't know. And then I realised there's nothing wrong with saying I don't know. So that that's part of it. That's part of... you have to be able to say, I don't know. That's why we're here. I don't know the answer to that question. We have to figure it out. Oh, yay, great. But I was scared to say I don't know, early on, as many people are, because you know why? There is an outdated perception that a director is the person who walks into that process, knows the answer to everything. And you can apply this to leadership and other contexts, right. They know everything. They call all the shots, you know? No, you have to unlearn that.

Thank you so much, Jennifer, both for what leaders of the creative processes do and don't do. It's very interesting that that your starting point was very much a conscious refusal to adopt the established way of doing things. Interestingly, for Vivi, it was exactly the same starting point. Viviana leading creativity. I just got this impression that, that in your head, it's about as a leader, how do you sort of generate it energy, I suppose. Does that sound right?

Yes, it does. So at first, I was like very, I thought I have to behave as a man like being sure of everything or in control, or have a loud voice or stuff like that. Now I laugh about it. But at first, I had to deal with that and see, well, I'm not like that. And I'm not a man. And I'm not like that at all. So how can I be a director? From really who I am?

Which is somebody who plays.

I'm very childish. I have this personality and, and I have to accept that and I have to work with that. And from there comes my ideas or my, or how I relate with others. So it was the big thing to be there and be yes, childish or have fun or have doubts even. Or my little voice that is not a hard, you know? Oh. So how to find my way?

is childish the right word?

Well, Oh, yeah. I don't know. Maybe it's when I think of childish, it's good question Julia. It's more like irresponsible.

You just don't take yourself too seriously.

Or being irresponsible. Like, you know, children and childhood, do not have so many consequences on what you do, right? You're like a child, you're always playing, you're irresponsible. I missed that a lot, to be irresponsible. From when I was a child. But yeah, childish is like maybe to play, don't think about too much about consequences. For me the work in art is to, to be open to things we don't know.

And to not see control.

Exactly, to lose control, to

deliberately,

yes, to put and maybe put control in others also, like to share the control, not to have it, to put it there, to see how it moves. Or when you can make decisions. Because there's, you know, like, moments of like, for theatre directing, there are different moments. One of my last moments that I really practice is that what happens if I don't say anything? People are always saying everything, or saying how things are done. What happens if I'm not saying that? What is that space? How does the people behave in this non control or not saying what to do. For me, sometimes I feel more that I have more power, that way of leadership, that I have to feel really secure, that I can, you know, like lose this control or just see things when I'm rehearsing with actors or non actors. And just I see things that are not right, or that I don't like, but I just let it be, all right. Like I say, well, let's see what happens. I'm not gonna rush into correction and say what's right, because I really want to surprise myself. Sometimes the other person brings something really surprising. Like I'm always giving that chance to other people and to the way I work. So let's be surprised about what's happening. And if you know everything, and you control everything, I think you miss that part of being surprised.

You had a wonderful expression. You said the wrong way sometimes leads you to the new way.

I said that?

yeah. You said that to me the other day.

yes, yes, yes. I think that yeah. And I think we have to you know, also be tolerant or or just have have a little patience with mistakes or the wrong way. I mean, I think the right way is so boring most of the times.

and then and then you you talked to me about the last big thing that creates energy is, is if the leader is genuinely deeply curious. But that that creates a natural energy does it?

Yes, I think that's the, like the beginning of everything. Like things that can wake you up like, that makes possible that you can do a lot of work. For me, it's like that. I mean, if I'm not curious, then I just not I'm not interested. So if I'm not interested, I just don't do anything. I prefer to watch out the window. I don't know, how the trees move or something. I mean, it's a lot of work to do things with other people or do what what I do is theatre. But I think I think it I think that for most people if you're not curious, and there's this fire of curiosity. So what's the point? I see it like that. And curiosity, yeah, makes you move.

But you talked also to me about the space between, between us? And the space between people. That's the bit that you're most curious about. Explain that. What do you mean by that?

Yes. Because I'm, well, I'm always talking about my practice, and my field, that is theatre. So, and this makes me very curious in theatre. So, what's in between? Because we tend to look at the figures, you know, like the main characters or people but if we have two people, for me, is what is in between that is more interesting and more invisible and that makes things move in drama. This is my way of putting myself in motion, this curiosity and being childish. And first, I really need for other people who I'm working with to accept that from me and trust me. This is maybe the most difficult part because if I'm childish and I'm curious, maybe that's not so trustful or trust. Trusted, how do you say that?

Trustworthy?

Yes, thank you.

Because people expect their leaders to be serious.

Exactly. Exactly. Serious. And then yeah, and strong. So.

And certain.

Exactly. Yes. Certain and strong and have a loud voice. So my proposal is more uncertain, and fragile. I like that word a lot. And so I have to be trusted in that. So it makes it more difficult.

When you get it right, when you get leading the creative process right, what does it feel like?

Yeah, it's very peaceful, I think. Yes. It's like when all the parts come to place, or you just build a hole. And it just lasts for a little while. Because everything just moves again. Canterbury explained it right. It's this emotion of happiness.

Yeah, just very simple happiness.

Yes, simple happiness with a lot of work. It's like, some sort of perfection feeling for a while.

I'm not surprised therefore that you have to let, you have to abandon control if you're going to achieve that state.

Yes, yes. Good. Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Because control is like to be certain of things. And so I think yeah, it's boring. We know about it, I mean, yeah, you can be certain or, or think you're certain about things and then just go on like that. I think there's nothing new coming up if you take that path of being of being right or certain. The other side is more unknown. Unknown. I like the unknown. It's more dangerous.

More full of surprises.

Full of surprises, that's for sure. Yes, it is.

Vivi, Vivi. Thank you so much. So creativity for you is play and irresponsibility and surprise and being quiet and letting it be and don't rushing to correct and being curious and to have patience. And to avoid being boring. And probably above all, to deliberately abandon control. I think obviously, what you say resonates so much with what Jennifer said as well. The thing that also absolutely sticks in my head is that expression from Jennifer, that the three words that are the best words to utter in any creative process are, "Let's try it." Let's try it. I can hear Jennifer shouting, "let's try it." Yes, let's try it. It's a good one. Thank you so, so much. I think there's a lot to learn from all of that. Next week, so we've done midwives, we've done movements. We've done theatre processes, now or creativity processes. Now next week, we're going to look at schools and we're going to talk to two head teachers of schools who, here's what I propose to you. If your kids were in their schools, and something traumatic happened to the school, you would hope that these two women were the head teachers. Look forward to it. Lots of love.

Thank you for listening to the podcast. We would love you to follow the expedition and provide your own stories and perspectives. You can do this by subscribing to this podcast and joining the Women Emerging group on LinkedIn where you can have your say