Episode #95: Building Trust in Web3 Transactions with Haven1

In this episode, Jason Fernandes, Co-Founder of AdLunam Inc., is joined by Abhishek Bansal, CPO at Haven1, to discuss the critical importance of trust in Web3 transactions. Learn how Haven1 is leading the charge with its permissioned, decentralized blockchain to ensure secure and reliable interactions in the Web3 space.

Join us as we dive into the future of trust, security, and innovation in blockchain technology with Haven1’s unique approach to decentralized solutions.

Catch DIVIC live every Thursday on the AdLunam Twitter page (https://x.com/AdLunamInc).

A Safe Haven Blockchain: Building Trust in Web3 Transactions

Speakers:

Jason Fernandes (Co-founder of AdLunam)

Abhishek Bansal (CPO AT Haven1)

Hello, everybody. If anybody can hear me, drop an emoji in the chat to confirm. We'll get started, shortly. We'll wait for, a quick minute for the room to fill up. Alrighty, everyone. Before we kick things off, I have some updates about upcoming events. My cofounder Nadia Bester will be speaking at the Africa NFT Metaverse Conference on the 26th - 27th November, on blockchain based crowdfunding for African startups. AdLunam’s, Media Arm, Altcoin Observer also be a media partner at the Africa NFT Metaverse Conference and also a media partner for Wiki Finance Expo, held in Dubai on November 27th.

So stay tuned for exclusive coverage, insights, and interviews with other web3 leaders. Okay. Fantastic. Let's get started. Welcome to another episode of Diving to Crypto sponsored by AdLunam Inc. I'm your host, Jason Fernandes, cofounder at AdLunam. I'm excited to explore today's topic, a safe haven in blockchain, building trust in Web3 transactions. So we have a very special guest today, Abhishek Bansal, CPO at Haven1.

Abhishek, why don't you, unmute and maybe tell us a bit about, about what you guys are doing over at Haven1?

You guys hearing me okay? Yep. Hi, everyone. Gm gm. Thanks for having me.

And then over the last year or so, I've been building Haven1. And, yeah, sort of I did product design, part of operations team. I've also been managing ecosystem and sort of developer relationships. So it's been a busy role, but, yeah, it's been an exciting one. I've had a chance to learn a lot. Happy to be on the on this call today and share what I've learned and what I think about the space.

Yeah. I mean, thank you so much, Abhishek, for that. It's yeah. It's certainly a pleasure having you on. I think, your journey is really, is really inspiring. It's not a lot of people, that end up working, working at Binance and then, you know, going on to do what you've done, over at Haven. So it's very exciting to see kind of how this is gonna develop. I'm curious what inspired you to sort of dive into the blockchain crypto space in the first place.

You mentioned briefly that you were sort of in the web2 world before you came to web3. What sort of excites you the most about, crypto and its potential?

Yeah. I mean, you know, but so I did initially, it was very much the opportunity to be able to sort of have life changing financial gains, very much similar to, to an average person who's onboarded on to crypto. Over time, I'd say, as I started to understand, you know, back in the DeFi summer as I sort of started to, do quite a bit of yield farming, it got really interesting for me to understand how where the yield comes from. And as I went deeper into that cushion on where the yield comes from, I got a firsthand understanding of, really what sort of blockchains enable and what sort of applications good applications built on blockchain can enable users to be able to do. And that's what sort of got me excited. The opportunity at Binance was, so I started building some games, some sort of NFPs. And then the opportunity at Binance was, was also a very interesting one. This was an opportunity to potentially build a separate business within Binance, and maybe one day run it separately as its own business.

That kind of appeal to the entrepreneur inside me. And then over time, you know, as I sort of worked at Binance, I got a chance to interface a lot with even though my primarily job was in the web2 part of the Binance, the trading piece, the onboarding piece. But, you know, here and there, I got a chance to interface with teams that were working on building decentralized identities, teams building sole bound tokens, teams working on BNB chain. And all of that was just deeply exciting, a world that I wanted to know more of, a world that I wanted to get involved in. So I'd worked in the in the product space for a while, and product for me was very much sort of, at a have a high level understanding of the tech and be able to work with engineering teams and understand the business, business responsibilities. But as I started diving deeper into crypto at Binance, it sort of got me a flavor of how diverse the product rules within the crypto space look like. They're more than sort of working with engineering team, more than just working with business teams. You run marketing one day and business development the other day and community some other day.

And so, yeah, just all of that was deeply exciting, and that's kind of been my, journey into the space.

Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people don't really, understand that when you are a young company, particularly like a crypto company, you're pretty much doing all roles. Like, it's your nominal role might be, CPO, but as you mentioned, you're talking to developers. You're managing relationships with, with vendors, partners, all sorts of stuff. It's quite, it's quite something. I'm sure it's especially in crypto, it's a world that not many people, you know, some people aren't really built for it. Right? Because there's just so much you have to be so versatile with being able to go from sort of one area to another without much, without much friction. So over your decade of experience, you know, in product management, that's quite a bit.

How's your perspective evolved, since entering the web3 space? So, you know, you mentioned that you got excited early on. Like, so what keeps you excited about this? How is it evolved?

Yeah. I would say the main evolution and still on that sort of I'd say that evolution the path of evolution. What I've come to sort of very strongly believe is that blockchains are, are the best for financializing, assets. It could be any asset, As long as there is a there are benefits to having a centralized ledger, you can potentially, financialize anything. Now what that means is that, you know, you I don't know if listeners there have sort of interacted with something like a time not fun. That to me is, like, the power of what crypto enables. Everybody's time is not the same. And for the first time ever, we managed to build, a fairly, I would say, decent liquidity around one's time.

And that, I think, is again a deeply interesting concept, and that sort of shows to me, the power of crypto. We're obviously evolving very much on the use cases around gaming and the use cases around IP, around real world, assets and so on and so forth. And I'm quite excited to see how all of those things evolve. But just our ability to be able to financialize things and be able to compose and make things into Legos, I think is a superpower. So that's the piece that I sort of deeply come to believe being in the space for a few years now.

So I'm on time.fund's website. I'm curious, you know, it looks like you guys have sort of well, the team over there has sort of worked on, you know, a SocialFi platform where, you know, the individual, essentially, people pay for the, individual creators themselves. So how do you think that that compares to something like BitCloud or some of the other social platforms that you sort of I'm just curious. I don't know what, you know, how much how much you have to do with this project. But, yeah, I'm curious what you think about that. Like, the comparisons to, you know, other social platforms, like, let's say, Big Cloud or Firecast.

Yeah. So one I think is the is the permissionless nature of it, which is being able to, for anyone to be able to sort of monetize their time. I think it's amazing rather than sort of having, one central actor with not very clearly defined rules where, people are arbitrarily allowed versus not allowed. So that I think is 1. Second, I think is, again, the big sort of unlock for me is being able to do sort of micro transactions, and being able to sort of speculate on assets. That's again, like, speculation. Often people think about speculation sort of, in a negative sense. But I think speculation at its core very much helps us sort of find the right price of an asset.

So being able to sort of potentially have that edge in in in being able to understand what the market is sort of pricing something as versus what do you think is the actual price, that was something that wasn't sort of existing. Yes. You could sort of, go straight to this bunch of platforms where you could sort of say, you know, I provide consulting half an hour. This is my slot. But, this sort of a market where there's sort of liquidity on both sides. There's people who sort of understand the value of your time better than, than maybe even your audience, and then they're able to sort of speculate on your time and sort of, have the right pricing around your time, I think is where, is what crypto is able to enable.

Yeah. I mean, I think when it comes to tokens, especially tokens, you have, you know, a certain a certain group of people that are buying your tokens. Let's say they're utility tokens. They are buying it for the utility that the token provides itself. And then there's another layer, of speculators. And I think the difference between the two is that you have, the token holders. Typically, they're looking at, the use case today, and they're buying the token for, to be able to actually use it in real time, whereas the speculators are essentially betting on the future. So what you have the reason both of them are necessary is because the speculators give you an idea of the potential of the technology, whereas, the people actually buying the token today are you know, give you an idea of what the demand for the token is today.

That's not you know, that not doesn't necessarily in the past the whole use case of a token and its potential future.

Right? Yeah. No. I think it's a interesting distinction. In my head, everyone sort of essentially unless you're sort of really using something, right, here's an example. Right? You are on a layer 1 chain. You need to buy Ethereum. Let's say you're in Ethereum mainnet. You need to buy Ethereum to be able to sort of, push your transactions.

That's a unique example of you buying Ethereum to be able to spend it. Most assets are not like this. Most assets are purchased, in the space to be able to sort of potentially speculate. We, who are the early users in the space, feel excited about our technologies. We think, because we are early to the space, we understand the potential better than users who are not yet onboarded to the crypto. And that's where we think our edge lies, and a lot of users are buying these assets for those purposes. But, yeah, I mean, there's definitely sort of a small number of but important use cases where these assets are purchased, because, you know, it's an arcade. You need to sort of spend that sort of token to be able to play a game.

Or it's like, you know, you need to sort of spend that token to be able to, send your transactions on a network.

Yeah. So, I mean, since we're talking about utility tokens anyway, I'd love to get your thoughts on this sort of meme coin phenomena that's overtaken the market in general. I know it's not necessarily specific to, to the topic at hand, but I'm curious because you we're talking about utility. You know, these you these meme coins have no utility. So I'm curious, like, what your thoughts are on that, both the phenomena and where do you think, you know, it's gonna stay, stay a thing for a while.

Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you my thoughts on this is kind of changing potentially every month. So I am, you know, when I when I speak sort of on this here, treat me as, like, one of, you know, anyone in the audience, rather than anyone who sort of deeply created, like, a successful meeting point. Yeah. No, I have sort of come from, a few months back being really unable to see how these meme coins are helpful because, there's a lot of insider buying. Meme coins are interesting and exciting but there's a lot of insider buying and insider sort of coordination. And that even though they feel very democratic, they are not.

Often people sort of you know, a few months back after I told you, everyone says, hey. These VC coins are sort of are rigged because, you know, VCs are gonna keep dumping on retail. Whereas these meme coins are fair, and that was not a truth. Because, you know, even if you sort of do a deeper research into any of the meme coins, you'll often find this pump and dump on pretty much every meme coin. One thing though that cannot be denied in the last month or so or last sort of few months or so is that meme coins have onboarded more, non crypto users to crypto this cycle than really anyone else. So while majority of the users who've onboarded into the space are gonna get sort of lose money, I really hope they don't lose all their money. I really hope they still believe in the technology come back, and sort of, explore the technology and figure out, okay, what's the right investments to make. But I think the power of the mimetic power of meme coins to be able to take over big brands, take over TikTok, take over really AI now.

I think it's just like the excitement in the space is sort of is crazy. Like last week, we had DevCon in Bangkok. I got a chance to meet a lot of builders in the space. I can tell you anyone who was basically, thinking of meme coins negatively is rethinking their position. So I think it is it is an exciting space. It is definitely rigged in many ways. But, you know, one cannot deny its ability to onboard a lot of users into crypto.

Yeah. You know, by the way, we were also at DevCon, in Bangkok. We were partnered with something like 11-13 Events. Yeah. We were at meme wonder. My cofounder spoke at the meme wonder event, that was with, posted by Binance. So we saw, like, a whole bunch of memes. There was, like, an actual, like, a guy dressed as Pepe, like, walking around.

It was quite a festive atmosphere actually, and I think maybe that's part of what is the attraction also. It's really simple, and there's not a lot of stuff that they need to understand in order to make, you know, make decisions, because there's really nothing there's nothing there at all. But I think you touched on something earlier about, you know, evolution of one's views. I think that that's sort of what, it's sort of important for everybody to keep an open mind and to, be influenced by, you know, the changing market conditions and then whether, you know, that influences your overall thinking about, you know, wherever the market is going or what is the actual use of crypto in the first place. I mean, it's not just necessarily you know, you can have more than one use case than, let's say, Altcoins or let's say Bitcoin or even maybe a particular use case is just, people getting into, you know, memes, for example. Like, maybe that is a use case that's just as bit every bit as valid, you know, as, like, the most serious areas, DeFi and so on. Right? So, I mean, I guess it's all about sort of being open to the evolution of that.

So moving on to sort of Haven specifically, you know, you guys are big on security. So I'm curious, what is the sort of security aspect of Haven1? And what are the some of the major challenges that users and developers face when it comes to blockchain, you know, safety and security?

Yeah. No. That's an excellent sort of, you know, pivot. I think it's a question we deeply care about at Haven1. So on the user side, I can tell you that there's not a day where I'm not worried if any of my funds sitting on 100 of different wallets sort of, you know, ended up getting a rug because I ended up signing a wrong transaction or I ended up sort of getting fished. The you know, just the numbers speak for themselves. The amount of 1,000,000,000 of dollars that have lost in the space to acts and scams and bugs is sort of insane. So any new user onboarding onto the space, I think it's just really default worried, that any serious user coming into the space is default worried that, am I gonna be able to sort of take care of my money? And, hence, they usually end up sort of, just onboarding on to Binance or to some of these other centralized exchanges and then never sort of exploring, those coins, which are the technologies those coins sort of represent.

And, you know, this is a fairly big problem in the space. Now there's many things being done, to solve this problem, and these things are evolving slowly over time. Even once another attempt sort of a unique approach to attacking this problem. So that's the problem on the user side. I'll come to how Even1 solves it in a second. Then down the developer side, you build a smart contract. Finally, the a lot of developers building on Solidity. There's a lot of resources, a lot of strong ecosystem around it.

It's insanely easy to, to be able to sort of write code, which has a large kind of vulnerability inside the code. So as these codes as these sort of, byte codes get sort of, get sort of computed and then eventually end up deployed onto the EVMs, there's just a lot of vulnerabilities that these, these, these contracts can have. And honest developers are really worried because, these vulnerabilities, these chains are permissionless. Any developer can come, deploy a contract which takes an advantage of a vulnerability in an existing contract and brought the uses of that, that that protocol, and then then a protocol is dead, for sure after that one big hack. So this is a problem that's kind of fairly deep in the space. It's to the point where I think it can it is preventing a lot of serious actors to enter the space. We've been interfacing with users, with institutions, with mature, sophisticated dev houses, developers, and there's just a lot of concern around the security. So this is how Haven1 sort of came to be.

We've kind of taken a very opinionated approach on how blockchain should be built. And in in the process, what we've done is we've solved a lot of the problems both on the developer side and the user side. Now on the developer side, one thing we've made them available is, what if we can have, audits available for to you at a lower cost? So audits are insanely expensive in the space. You know, 500 lines of code can take up to $5,000 to get audited. So these are sort of insane, sort of insanely complex things to get audited. We've sort of built an audit council at Haven1 where we work with the best, auditors in space, and we've built a product where these auditors are able to offer their best rates to the developers building on Haven1. We've come up with a grant program that allows these developers to be able to, not sort of take on a big cost at Leon and be able to deploy in a in a seamless manner. The third thing we've done is we have a continuous monitoring on all of these smart contracts.

One of our partners, is Hypernative. They're a company based on a visitor and there's an amazing company. They provide real time monitoring on all smart contracts, and they have the ability to be able to pause a contract on Haven 1 as soon as they detect the vulnerability. And there's, like, you know, there's ex if you look at all the hacks that have happened on smart contract hacks, they would have 2 thirds of those would have been prevented if, if these protocols were sort of using someone like Hypernative to do smart contract monitoring and potentially an ability to pause contracts soon. These are the things we've done on the on the developer side. Now on the user side, we've sort of worked to, a, we've enabled we've made sure our builders who are deploying on Haven 1 have done, have done a KYC or a KYC. That sort of eats a lot of the good actors a lot of the bad actors away, and that gives users first level of peace of mind. The second thing we've done is we've enabled users to be able to set up things like 2FA.

Now if you end up losing your keys or if you end up sort of losing your passkey, you still have this if you've set up this is optional on heaven1, but encouraged. If you've set up 2FA, you could you you're, like, you know, you can get phished, but the user will not be able to sort of send any malicious transactions through you. We work to enable policies. Sophisticated actors in the space wants to keep policies such as only these IPs and these regions and these time zones and this is the transaction limit and daily limit and all that. Right? And we've made all of that available to Haven 1 natively at a protocol level. So, yeah, there's a lot of work we've done on the user side to, to give them the safest experience possible. And we're starting to get those early indications from our users that this is what they were looking for. So, yeah, that's kind of what Haven 1 sort of fundamentally believes and how we build the chain.

So are you guys the layer 2 then? Or how would you guys describe yourselves?

We're very much a layer 1. It was a big decision for us. There's a lot of benefits to being a layer 2, and I think we respect the Ethereum team quite a bit. And in fact, the base client of Haven1, has been built upon, a fork of a get only, which was written by the researchers on Ethereum. So, we've sort of, gotten a lot of benefit out of the awesome teams working on Ethereum. And the reason we have to build this as a layer 1, though, is that we realize there's a lot of things we have to completely reimagine early on. And the layer 2 infrastructure just isn't at that point. So things like potentially how do you want the bridges to be constructed where bridges are the keys of the bridges are essentially sharded into, more sort of mature actors in the space, 7 or 8 more mature actors in the space, and then they can sort of approve transactions.

So we had to sort of build plenty of things, which just wasn't possible on a layer 1, at the time. They still aren't possible on a layer 1, but I can tell you the ecosystems are evolving fairly fast, and I wouldn't rule out a world where human one transitions to a layer 2 years down the line when we feel like the right text available and we can still continue to provide a secure user experience to our users.

Mhmm. Mhmm. And so do you guys have are you guys having, like, multiple different DApps, build on, build on your chain? Is that what one of your things? Do you guys have Launchpad on there right now?

Yeah. Very much so. So, I mean, the way we look at this, and I sort of talked specifically on what are the builders that are building on Haven1 as well and what are the kind of things being built. But at a very high level, our world view is that, put everything that you can do on, let's say, Ethereum or Solana, we want you to be able to do that on Haven1, but do that sort of safely and securely. Now, so we think Haven1's potentially a general purpose chain where really anything and everything that can be built. Having said that, there are, there are definitely some focus areas for us at Leon to be able to build the right ecosystem. We're focusing very much on DeFi. We call it DeFi 2.0.

We're focusing on RWAs. So those are sort of, I would say some of the core sort of pieces that we're focusing early on.

Got it. Got it. And so, what about something like pump.fund?

Yeah. So pump dot fun, potentially, I would say this pump dot fun is now, like, a code DeFi Lego. Every chain needs to have their own version of pump dot fun. What I also tell you, and because I sort of track these products across, like, maybe 10 different chains, is that, is that there's a lot sort of that goes behind the scenes to making a product like Pump.fund successful. That's more than the tech. So while, like, you know, a version of thumb dot fund probably exist in all major chains today, but no one really has had the product market fit that pump.1 has had. But, yeah, we very much would we are working with a few teams which have built this product on other chains and are excited to build this on Haven 1 as well.

Got it. So, basically, it comes down to, the team behind that particular product and how they how they, how they promote it and their relationships in the Web 3 space. We all know, you know, relationships and everything and particularly in crypto, and I suppose that's true even when it comes to something like pumped out fund. You could clone the technology, but actually, you don't clone the business. Right?

Yeah. 100 percent. Yeah.

So what do you what would you say makes sort of pumped up fund, successful specifically? Like, what do you think its secret sauce is?

So I'd say, 1, the product has to be able to use on a mobile application. Like, it's just, like, very strange world to me when I entered sort of web3 development last year. Like, on every other company I worked on, 90% of our focus was to build the best mobile experience, and then you would focus on desktop as, like, a second platform. Whereas on web 3, we're still very much building for desktop because of the because of the nature of wallets that exist in the space. Luckily, though, the space is evolving, in a in a good shape. Like, Phantom Wallet on mobile is my favorite wallet to use, and I would sort of argue they are that's pretty much core to a success of, of a pump.fund on Solana where, where those wallets are, are sort of a little bit easier, more sort of used relative to on Ethereum change as an example. The second thing that's kind of equally important to making a pump.fund successful is being able to sort of onboard, very seamlessly. So we've seen, this entire concept of sort of managing keys, is what sort of, what a lot of mature users want to go through.

Just being able to sort of a lot of users just want to be able to fund their accounts easily. So as long as you have easy sort of quick funding available, your mechanism to be able to sort of onboard onto Solana through your credit card, through your debit card, through your pocket money you received through by your parents, and then potentially sort of, gamble that money on mobile. That sort of go to the success of pump.fund. The other thing that's also very important is potentially having that sort of ecosystem where remember, like, you know, every for every 1,000 coins that sort of get built, hardly one will sort of end up getting anywhere near, you know, some amount of adoption. So having that sort of influencer community, having that sort of QA, having that sort of, those sort of Telegram groups where these things end up sort of potentially going viral over time, I think is the other thing Solana has been able to foster and build and, so there's just a lot more firepower, on Solana and pump.fund than on any other, pump.fund clone.

Got it. So now we've been talking a lot about security and, you know, one of the this the second prong that we often talk about is privacy. And so how can sort of blockchain ecosystems, like yours, for example, or even others in general, ensure user privacy while also maintaining sort of high levels of security and compliance? Because compliance is something that, you know, we it's just constantly seems to be, popping up and oftentimes it's not very helpful. But sometimes it is, but, obviously, there's areas where we need compliance. So this seems like it pops up in areas where it's not really necessary.

Yeah. No. For sure. I mean, that is anywhere we need, real world assets, like, as an example, there has to have some sort of, security laws. There has to have some sort of compliance. And yeah. So I would say, you know, keeping the topic of where the compliance is necessary or not, which is which is zone sort of a big discussion, this is, like, a very good question. A lot of users and hopefully, this is a good sort of, you know, opportunity to explain this.

A lot of people think that privacy and compliance are, opposite side of the spectrum. Mhmm. I, who've been working in the space for a while, can tell you that's not the case. Now when people think about permission chains and compliance, they often are thinking binary, and that thinking has come from, the first iterations of permission chains where on one hand, you had JPMorgan, which was sort of only onboarding their own customers onto the chain and this was very much a compliance effort where all the data was stored with JP Morgan and potentially all the data was available to the regulators, and was shared actively with the regulators as an example. Versus now over time, what's happened is that this has become more of like a scale rather than a binary version of it. The permission chains, like Haven 1, the chains that you've seen today, there's plenty of ways to, build compliance where fair 99.999% of the users will never have to worry about sort of their data essentially getting into the wrong hands ever. Why? Because there's technologies where as soon as you collect this data, the data can be sharded and potentially sort of held in custody of 8, 10 different custodian. And these could be sort of companies like, you know, a trust selectors in the space like, you know, Google and Amazon and other such entities in the space.

And these entities none of these entities single handedly can sort of ever decode user data. However, in case there is a fairly large compliance breach, the government and the compliance departments have a way to, potentially coordinate to be able to sort of obtain the data. So this to me is the balance. Right? So this essentially mean that anyone who's, anyone who is, gonna be engaging in, like, you know, most, like, most of us sort of engaging in honest activities. They're not sort of trying to hack smart contracts and trying to steal money and trying to sort of launder money. Most of these users, look. All of these users don't need to ever be able to worry about privacy. The data is stored, very, very, very safely.

And these to me are sort of the more modern iterations of permission chains and compliance chains. Where, yes, you're collecting the data, but the data is not stored naked on chain. The data is not stored by one entity. This one entity cannot sort of arbitrarily decide to onboard, off board, and share your data. Your data is potentially your data sharing follows, rules which are sort of encoded in smart contracts. Your data, is eventually sharded and sort of kept in multiple different nodes, which provides a lot more security. So to me, there's new iterations of permission change we're seeing. You can actually have a very healthy balance between privacy and security and compliance.

Got it. And so how do you so since you mentioned sort of public permission blockchains, how do they compare with traditional AOS solutions when it comes to sort of safety and usability?

So every permission chain goes about it slightly differently. If I take an example of human 1, like I was saying, the biggest thing that developers are worried about is that if there is a vulnerability, somebody's gonna exploit it. And that sort of is some is, you know, they they're spending sort of tens of 1,000 of dollars, and even then, they're not sort of sleeping peacefully. And that has to change. Right? The way we do it in Haven1 is that, a, we sort of help them lower that cost even if we can't sort of take all of that away. The second thing we enable is that because, everyone has to go through some sort of an IT verification. Builders have to go through some sort of an IT verification to be able to deploy. You are sort of rest assured that if somebody deploys a contract to hack your contract, there are ways to sort of, enforce accountability.

And that is something developers are very excited about. So that to me is sort of, that key on the on the builder side, on the user side, like I said. Right? Like, it just sort of anytime I'm sort of reading anything, I'll often find a new wallet, and sort of put small amount of money there and sort of not try to touch ever, the money that's stored on ledger and all of that just insane. Right? Like the, how I'm having to every time I'm traveling, I have to sort of deeply worry about how I'm gonna carry my ledgers around. So it's just like that stuff has to change and change like Have1 are doing a lot to sort of, make it users sort of make them easy users to be able to sort of feel peaceful about this entire thing.

Yeah. So I'm curious, you know, how do verified users and vetted applications impact, trust and safety on when it comes to blockchain ecosystem? So in particular, I'm curious about, you know, DID. Do you think that's an area that could grow on Haven Chain or, in general in the industry? Because we haven't seen a lot, of real world use cases when it comes to that, and I'm curious with the well, I believe that there's a lot of potential there, but I'm curious of what your thoughts are.

Yeah. It's an it's an excellent question. I can tell you that decentralized ID is definitely an evolving topic. I can tell you there's a lot of interesting application being built, and I but I wouldn't say it's achieved some sort of a product market fit. As an example, I'll give a very small example, and then I'll sort of have something else I wanna mention, which is one of our partners, they run supply chains in Europe. Europe's recently passed laws where, anything that's marked sustainable, the supply chains for, the raw material for building these sustainable products needs to be tracked. Now this is where decentralized entities is very, very powerful where all of that provenance can be established on chain at a much lower cost than what it would take otherwise for these supply chain, for these producers to be able to sort of, manage and track and share. So, yeah, that's this that's kind of one interesting application I said, but I say there's a lot of other interesting applications we hear every other week that are that are building on Haven1.

But the reason we capture IT isn't just to enable those decentralized ID application. That's almost a bonus that comes, on top of it. The reason we, capture ID is because capturing ID allows to, allows you to enforce accountability. Even if the data is stored more securely and the data is not on the chain, anytime a user is aware that I need to go through some sort of identity verification, the likelihood of sort of scams and rugs and hacks just sort of reduces massively. So that's kind of the one big reason as to how we do it and why we do it. Though those decentralized ID use cases are definitely a bonus that gets enabled by things like, you know, ID verification on permission change like Haven1?

Yeah. I mean, I think, potentially, you know, when we look at these, when we look at a lot of, decentralized ID, ID solutions, You have things where it's a question of, like, what information you share. Do you share names? Do you share, ages? So, I mean, I can think of potential use cases where you maybe don't wanna share your name at all. You only wanna share, let's say, you know, certain very specific piece of information. But that

Oh, yes. For sure. You know?

Yeah. That seems to be not something that, that has been developed yet or is very popular.

Yeah. No. It is. And, you know, this is a part of the regulations evolving in the space as well. If if someone's building a betting marketing in Europe, and we know because we talked to multiple teams over the we've talked to multiple teams over the last few months. A lot of these a lot of these protocols are now wanting to verify that the users are, are more than 18 years old. And, and all they need to do on Haven1 is we've captured identity verification. And this identity data is not shared with the builder.

All a builder needs to do is that prompt a consent to the user, says, we only allow users of more than 18 years old. Do you allow us the consent to be able to verify your age from human 1? And the user can say no. If the user say no, they don't have access to that application group. But if the same user say yes, the only one piece of information we will tell that application is whether the user is less than 18 years old or more than 18 years old. There's no exact age being shared. There is no other data of the user being shared. So only very limited bits of information that's being shared that allows that application to feel safe and secure that users who are using my application are indeed are indeed more than 18 years old.

Got it. So, I mean, that's actually exactly what I'm talking about because, you know, there may be some use cases where, you know, you don't need you don't need to send share your ID, but, you know, maybe, let's say, your name is not important. You just wanna know somebody's age. And maybe you don't wanna share your name. Maybe you don't wanna share your age, your, address and email address and things like that. So I'm curious in terms of, you know, people that are building on your block on your blockchain, what's sort of the most exciting you know, you mentioned one use case just now. What's sort of the most exciting use case, like, real world use case that you're coming across, you know, with people building on your blockchain?

Yeah. I mean, the creativity in this space is insane. I love the space. That that is that's the reason I kinda love the space. So, yeah, I mean, on Haven1, let's talk, like, you know, our sector as an example. Let's talk RWAs an example. So users on the builders on Haven1 are working to tokenize everything from, call it, vanilla treasuries, US treasuries, to more exotic treasuries, to, to bonds, to stocks, to money market funds eventually, to potentially being able to tokenize invoices and lending and so and so forth. Things as like, you know, fractional real estate, diamonds, really the amount of creativity in the space where users are sort of potentially tokenizing a lot of these dormant assets and bringing them in chain and providing incremental composability on this is really powerful.

So I'll give you an example,

you know, to make this a little bit easy to understand. So let's say, you know, I am someone who believes in diamonds. I feel like diamonds are right investment over time because, you know, whatever they're rare and the price sort of increases by 5 to 10%, and I wanna hold diamonds. This is a really expensive, for the users to be able to hold diamonds safely and securely. Now what they can do is that they can buy fractional diamonds, which are assessed by, top assessors in the space. So not only have they now security around holding that diamond, more importantly, if they are sort of in mood to take a little bit more risk, they can lend that, that NFT, which they've obtained as a proof of ownership of that diamond, and potentially borrow stables against state and then sort of deploy that stables on other things. They can let anyone else sort of borrow assets against state and potentially be compensated for using that as a collector. So just a be a composability of and this wasn't sort of possible for diamonds.

Right? Imagine Right. You have diamonds, then you go you go to a loan chart, you keep your diamond, you know, just the entire space is kind of it's quite hard for people to be able to do this off chain. And that, to me, is the power of real world assets on Haven1 on chain and on Haven1.

And so do you think there are, you know, securities implications with this? Because generally speaking, real world assets have been considered securities, and then securities are, you know, very highly regulated with reference to who can invest in them, you know, who can who can, well, basically, whether you who can offer them, for example. Also, if you can like, you have to be, you know, registered in order to advise, people purchasing securities. So I'm curious, do you think that there are securities implications around, real world assets and then, you know, putting real world assets on chain?

For sure, there are. Having said that, you know, I'm not an expert on the evolving regulation in the on the security space. I can tell you that security laws in Thailand, as an example where I'm based, have eased a lot for, for real world assets over the last year or so. So there is a trend of potentially allowing for, token creators and token issuers to be able to securitize these real world assets easily. There is still some regulation in space, but I can tell you it's getting easier and easier to be able to do these things. Having said that, like I said, I'm not an expert on and these things are changing, man, every week. So hard to cap catch up with you know, keep up with all of these changes. But, yes, depending upon where your base, security laws apply.

Yeah. You know, by the way, I'm also based in out of Bangkok, so you should definitely catch up when you're in town next. But you're right that it does seem like, over the last few, in, you know, events that we went to, that that there was there was a much more permissible attitude towards, by the regulators, you know. Like, I think I think a year ago, it was not quite the same, and I think that they have sort of, lightened up a bit perhaps lately.

Yeah. I'm quite excited on so, you know, this, I can tell you this is one of those areas where I think regulation is also necessary. See, things are when you have everything on a smart contract where the laws are sort of dictated by code and there's easy ways to understand whether the code is upgradeable or not and who's the controller of the code and how is it deployed and things like that. Those are places where regulation potentially needs to be sort of backing off. But real world assets where potentially somebody's keeping custody of these assets, and you want sort of those security laws being applicable where, there is consumer protection. Like, you know, if somebody, who is, like, a trusted custody actor in the space ends up making a bad bet, there are ways to potentially compensate, users who sort of engage in these assets. So that to me is the a space where regulation is frankly necessary. So more important so again, just wanna be rephrasing myself.

It's what's more important is the a clear path to be able to sort of issue these tokens and the cost being sort of not insane around it. But, you know, this is one of those areas where I think the compliance is quite important.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good that's a good differentiation because, of course, when it comes to real world assets and investments, you want people to be safe. But then the flip side of that is you don't wanna stifle innovation too from a regulatory perspective. Like, that's something that that tends to happen. You know, Singapore, briefly was taking this very, sandbox type approach. They had, like, this regulatory sandbox where you could sort of build around and they would sort of tell you what to do. And I think that's a good approach. I'm not sure that they're still doing that.

But I think that's a good approach because a lot of people, you know, they don't want they're not trying to break laws. They don't wanna break laws, but the laws aren't always clear, and there's not really somebody shepherding them through the process enough to understand, hey, you know, maybe don't do this or maybe do this a different way that's more compliant.

Yeah. For sure. One of our partners, the company called The Real Lifestyle, they are they're based in Malaysia. Shout out to them. They are tokenizing real estate in Malaysia and Dubai, and they're part of the sandbox. So their, first products are launching on base in a few months, and, and then they're gonna be launching on Haven1 next. I'm quite excited to for their launch and their ongoing fundraise. But, yeah, there's this, Malaysia is another place where there is a regulatory Sandbox at the moment.

Yeah. There's somebody I know that's working over in Malaysia and was saying that there's, there's quite a bit happening in blockchain there. Speaking of innovations, what do you think will shape, the next generation of secure blockchain ecosystems? Like, what are some of the innovations that you're looking at, you know, besides DID, for example?

Yeah. So, I mean, on the user security side, I think this is an area which I keep very, very, close tab on. And the good thing is that there's a lot of different approaches where innovation is done, which is always the best. Right? Like, Haven1's obviously got a unique approach. Maybe that's the right approach. But there's, all sort of new approaches, like, you know, I, as an example, now started using a wallet called Rabi. Now anytime I'm interacting with a smart so firstly, you know, anytime I'm sending funds, I if I'm adding a new, a new sort of wallet where the funds are being issued, then I have to enter password, before the before that funds can be sent. So I have to basically essentially add that address into a whitelist.

That's kind of, again, one nice sort of security feature. But more importantly, anytime you're interacting with any smart contract, they'll give you 3 distinct pieces of information. They'll tell you, how many distinct users have, engaged with this smart contract. They'll tell you how much amount of money has interacted with this smart contract, and they'll tell you how many times a user has revoked access on a smart contract. And all of these three things, they present in a very user friendly way, which is like, you know, this is amber, this is whatever red, this is green. So it's much more easy to understand, you know, to sort of save yourself from getting rung. That's kind of another approach. There's approaches where there is a company called firewall, and they'll work with a lot of teams where before any transaction hit sequencer, they there's a firewall module which can drop malicious transactions.

So, yeah, there's just a there's the entire sort of move as a language. Move as a language. You have like SUI and Movement and Aptos and all of that language. And the Movement is about sort of building a smart contract language, which is more deterministic, having lesser bugs. So, yeah, I'd say there is all sort of interesting, pieces of innovation and almost all stacks of sort of, the chains, like, right, from virtual machine to consensus to execution to clients where there is things being done to make user experience more safe and secure. So I'm quite excited on all the things that are happening in the space of safety and security.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good approach where, you know, you, you got some data about whether there's some people that how many people, for example, have withdrawn, permission for that smart contract or things like that. So you know that they withdraw permission for their wallet, for that for that smart contract. So you can kinda see, you know, it's almost like, like Google reviews almost. You know, you can kinda see whether, with based off of data, whether that's something that you can, that that you can trust. So what are the sort of advancements? So, like, you know, we have short amount of time left. So I'm curious, what are the sort of advance advancements you anticipate, in, you know, when it comes to Blockchain security? We speak with a lot of people that, so I've had Concordia on the show, a few weeks ago. They're building a, you know, privacy focused Blockchain.

So what do you think are the some of the, the advancements that are on the on the horizon? Like, what do you see upfront for your for yourself, for the company, for the industry over the next, let's say, 5 years?

Yeah. No. I think, one thing 5 years,

by the way, is a long period of time. I know. Especially in crypto. Right?

Especially in crypto. Yeah. We basically live kind of week by week to week at this point. Every week, we get surprised by something new that comes up. What I'm seeing, the advancement like I said, the advancements I'm seeing are pretty much in every stack, like, from, from chains like Haven 1, where we've got a very unique opinionated take on how blockchain safe blockchain should be built from, from even sort of established chains like Ethereum which are building native support for 2 FA, from sort of new languages like I said, you know, move, and stuff there. The chains are just a lot more safe and secure. Potentially a lot more sort of analytics around sort of real time monitoring with smart contracts. Again, I wanna I've mentioned Hypernative earlier.

I wanna give them another shout out. They're an amazing partner of ours. They monitor all smart contracts and they've realized that this is quite interesting actually. They realized that most hacks that happen are often not one transaction. Most hacks that happen are spread over multiple transaction. So simply by monitoring every transaction that are happening on chain, and being able to sort of marry machine learning and AI and being able to understand whether the transaction could have been malicious, they can sort of potentially prevent large amount of hacks that happen. So that's kind of again a very interesting approach in the space. There's policies that are set up, like, you know, you can sort of today go on a no c safe and potentially have a multisig wallet where, you know, if even if your one key ends up getting hacked, every transaction that you're sending on that piece of funds require, like, you know, multi sig through multiple wallets and stuff.

So, yeah, I think they're just like the advancements in the space are, I would say, like I said, pretty much happening on, every part of the stack. And a lot of these things are coming to market over a very short period of time, I'd say, 6 months to a year, while some of these things are happening over a longer time period as well.

Awesome. I mean, I think I think you guys are so in in a really, really exciting industry, particularly, I mean, niche of an industry, obviously, blockchain. Fascinating. That's why we all dedicate our lives here. But when it comes to sort of layer 1s, it's, it's an all or nothing thing. There's just so much competition, and it's really difficult to differentiate yourself. So I'm sure that you guys are, are well on your way to doing just that. So we're almost to the end.

Just thought that we'd maybe give you a chance to sort of, close with some parting thoughts, and then, I'll sum up.

Yeah. No. For sure. I think this was an exciting discussion. We explored, like, a good sort of a variety of topics. We talked about sort of privacy and compliance and safety and security in the space. We also talked about potentially the applications like, you know, pump dot fund and what makes them successful. Yeah.

I would, you know, I think we've had, like, a lovely discussion and hopefully our community sort of had a chance to, to get a sneak peek into, you know, what, what some of the some of us and what Haven1 and some of our partners are building. I do wanna say just one last thought on this. Haven1 right now has a a Reg d, private sale that's going on. The sale is being, this is, there's a limited amount of allocations we've made possible on that token sale, and it's only for again, it's very private, only available for our friends and kind of family and people we work with. And the allocations gonna run out, you know, in the next day or 2, and then we'll be doing a few launch batch. So if your community is, interested and excited to explore this, I would recommend you, check even one out then, you know, if there's anything that I can help you with sort of direct message me on Twitter or plenty of other platforms I'm on.

Yeah. For sure. I mean, would encourage everybody to check out, you know, the great work that Haven1 is doing and sort of, see if that's a that that's a that's an investment that you guys, you know, wanna get involved in. It's definitely been a super, you know, fascinating session. Like you said, you know, we covered so much. It's just great to be able to chat with industry folks and just get their thoughts on various subjects that's put into the day. So it's been really fun, having you over here, today. Thank you so much for that.

And huge shout out to everyone who tuned in. So we're excited to bring you more insights into the Web 3 world, so stay tuned. We'll see you next Thursday for another episode of Diving into Crypto. Bye, everybody.

Thank you So much for your time.

Yeah. G m g m. Thanks.

Alright. Bye bye. Thanks.