Most coaches stand at the top of the mountain and yell down to their clients to "reach their full potential." But if your client is struggling to pay their bills, they can’t hear you. In this episode, Adam Roach and Jess Webber introduce a 7-part series on Maslow’s Mountain, a framework that will change how you view your positioning, messaging, and client relationships.

The 5 Levels of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs

• Level 1: Physiological Needs – The base camp of survival including food, water, and basic shelter.
• Level 2: Safety Needs – Moving from simple survival to physical and emotional protection and the development of trust.
• Level 3: Love and Belonging – Shifting from self-protection to community, acceptance, and professional intimacy.
• Level 4: Esteem Needs – Developing respect, recognition, and confidence within the relationship and the community.
• Level 5: Self-Actualization – The summit where an individual reaches their full potential.

The "Coach's Trap"

The biggest mistake coaches make is standing at Level 5 (Self-Actualization) and trying to throw a rope down to someone at Base Camp. If your marketing speaks to "living your best life" while your avatar is worried about "keeping the lights on," you will lose their trust and their business.

From Hero to Sherpa

To truly succeed, you must stop trying to be the "Hero" who flew to the top and start being the Sherpa guide who walks arm-in-arm with the client from wherever they are.

"It is truly the lens or the filter through which you should run everything in your business." — Jess Webber

Resources Mentioned:

• Get Paid to Coach Guide: Ready to stop shouting from the peak and start guiding? Grab our free guide to help you transition from Hero to Sherpa.
• Website: ILoveCoachingCo.com

Just today's conversation is going to be probably one of your favorite.

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Actually, I know it's your favorite topic, most favorite topic on the entire planet that

some people may not even know about.

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And I have teased that you might need to get this tattooed somewhere on your arm, on your

wherever, but here's the cool part.

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You are so well versed what we're going to talk about today that you don't need a tattooed

anywhere because you have this thing mastered.

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where most people do not, and Jess, that is Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

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Most people don't even understand what we just said with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, so

I'm gonna let you introduce what this is, Jess.

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I love that you dropped the tattoo thing right off the bat because I was thinking about

that as we were talking about this podcast topic.

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And the reason that I love this so much is because if you've ever looked at Maslow's

Hierarchy of Needs, it's a triangle.

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Like that's the model or a pyramid if you want to go more specific.

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And my brain thinks in visuals and thinks in models and that's why I am so appreciative of

this process.

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So Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs was created by a psychologist, Abraham Maslow.

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And what he does is he talks about different types of needs of humans.

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And so his lowest level, his lowest tier is psychological needs.

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So this is food, shelter, water, like the basic human needs.

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and then he scales up into more emotional and head-based things.

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So it's like physical and then mental and then emotional essentially is how we scale this

pyramid that he's created.

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And the reason that I think it's so valuable is because this is the framework for

connecting with your ideal client.

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It's the framework for your positioning, for your messaging, for your marketing, for

everything.

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everything.

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when we talk Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it is truly the lens or the filter through which

you should run everything in your business.

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And yet I learned it when I was doing my undergrad in education because it's used as an

education model.

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And now that we work with coaches, I was like, well, it's basically just educating

coaches, right?

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So what they...

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What they teach is that you can't have a conversation at the top of the pyramid, which the

very top level five is self-actualization.

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It's your full potential, right?

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And you can't have a conversation about reaching your full potential when a student

doesn't have enough food in their house to fill their belly.

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Somebody who is struggling with food on the table or paying their bills, you know, or

something like that is not going to be able to talk about living their best life or being

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their best version of themselves.

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And so that is where I was going say that's where today's episode is going is

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in this that I need to explain to the listeners first that this is a seven part series,

right?

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This, this is so rich in knowledge, so deep with value that we could sit here for the next

three hours and discuss everything in this.

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Though we're going to break this down into seven different parts because it is that it's

that rich Jess.

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It is it is so rich and so what we want to do today is simply give you a blanket overview

of really what this mountain is right.

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We're going to call it a mountain because we want to give you that visual because here's

the mountain and then Jess I want you to go to base camp.

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We stand at the top of the mountain right.

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We as as

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as if you want to yourself a leader, great.

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A coach, great.

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A mentor, a trainer, a consultant, wherever you are on your journey of helping other

people around a specific topic that you have either mastered or you have real depth in

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that you can serve other people, you're standing at the top of the mountain.

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And so what we're going to do is we're going to break down what this mountain really is in

its five.

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There are five different parts of this mountain and we're gonna go all the way to the

bottom today of base camp so you can have an idea of what this mountain is and then we're

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gonna teach you where most coaches get stuck.

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I love it.

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Thank you for slowing me down.

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You can tell, listener, I love this.

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And again, it's not because I'm nerding out over it.

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It's just, it truly is the thing that can change your life and your business if you have

an ability to apply it as the lens through which you're looking at things.

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So, you know, I'm teasing Adam because he just started using reading glasses.

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I don't know if I'm supposed to share that, but it's a thing now.

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uh

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These are just straight from Amazon.

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These are 1.0 by the way.

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Yes, 1.0.

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I'm gonna leave them right here because you said...

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You said I looked old.

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Adam, that marks 30, 31 years this year of wearing glasses.

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I know it's nuts, but.

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going in my 20s so I could see far away and the doctor did say at 40 you're going to need

reading glasses.

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Well, you know what, doctor?

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Screw off because I'm almost 50 and I'm just now needing reading glasses.

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So maybe he just did a really good job.

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That's right.

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Yeah, that's very true.

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That's very true.

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Okay, back to

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it's like if you can put the Maslow lens on things it's going to change the way that you

look at

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pun intended by the way?

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Maslow lens?

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that was very good.

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Yes, pun intended.

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at is like, literally, it's the filter.

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It's the blue light filter that's, you know, put on your glasses kind of thing is the way

that I think about it.

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Because when you can start looking at everything through this lens, you're going to start

seeing this pattern show up repeatedly.

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And you'll start to understand why you either are really skilled at connecting with

somebody because your language isn't meeting them where they are in this level, or

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why your messaging is probably falling flat because you're speaking to the wrong level for

where your people are.

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So that's why we love it.

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And yes, we do use the mountain analogy because it is a process.

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It is not something that you can hop, skip and jump on.

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It's not something that you can bypass levels in.

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And so the mountain analogy is perfect because it's not instantaneous.

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It's not pick your own adventure.

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It is truly a

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process-oriented situation.

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Yep, it really is.

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Okay, so we're gonna start at the bottom.

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Let's start at the bottom of level one.

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This is the basic part of the Maslow hierarchy of needs.

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And this you all is, when it says basic, this is basic.

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Again, we're talking about needs.

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This individual or individuals down here at the bottom needs the basic survival

essentials.

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basic food water air Right that shelter.

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Those are the things that they need from a basic standpoint and you may be saying well

Everyone that I work with knows how to breathe everyone I know work with knows that they

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have a house and they can go get some food Maybe can they afford the house that they want?

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Can they afford the house that they're in can they afford to go get food?

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Can they keep the lights on?

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We don't know unless we actually dive in deep because a lot of us, Jess, and we're not

going to get into the stuck part yet.

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A lot of us over, over talk of where the client really is on the mountain.

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Right?

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That is, we over talk it.

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we operate from a place of we've achieved something and we want to look like an authority

in something and so we want to present a look-good-be-right situation and so we don't

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often like to go back to basics and talk about where we came from or what we went through,

which is the great thing that connects others to us.

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But it's because it's not the look good and be right, we don't discuss it and therefore we

struggle with connection.

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And so when we can sit there and say, hey, I came from a $30,000 a year job and I was

barely making ends meet and through a process, through a framework, through a whatever, I

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have now come out to this outcome of six or seven or eight figures or whatever it is, it

makes you human and it shows

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your potential person that you've been where they are.

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And so that to me is so valuable to say, hey, I know what you're going through, been

there, done that without sounding egotistical.

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Yep.

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So the bottom of the mountain of Maslow are the basic survival needs, right?

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That's what we need you to hear is the basic survival needs.

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Now, I've been coaching for a long time and there are times where your clients could be at

the top of the mountain and then fall off and go all the way back down to the bottom.

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And you've got to be aware of this to be able to speak to that specifically.

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We're not going to talk about the top of the mountain language just yet, but if you're at

the top of the mountain using that language and someone just lost an entire pipeline of

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revenue and they don't know how they're going to pay their bills tomorrow, you need to

coach to that bottom survival level.

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that, is the bottom Jess is, is level one is very basic survival needs.

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Yeah, so those are called physiological, right?

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It's physically your body.

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And right there attached with it is level two, which is safety.

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it's feed the body, protect the body.

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And when we say shelter, I'm thinking like it can be a tent.

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It can be an overhang on the side of a building that's just keeping you out of the

elements.

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Safety goes another layer deeper in the fact that...

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Now you're not only protected from the elements, but you are safe from them at the same

time.

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So, you know, we're in the middle of massive storm prep here in St.

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Louis today because we have 70 mile an hour winds, baseball size hail and tornadoes

predicted in the next couple hours.

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So my little nylon tent would provide me level one shelter, but not level two safety in

that weather.

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Okay, and so that's why level one and level two often get paired together, but really they

are separate in the context of feed your body first, protect your body first, and then you

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have to be safe physically, and you start to develop safety emotionally at the same time.

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So safety starts to layer in a little more in terms of, okay, I am not afraid for my

wellbeing around the people that I'm with.

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I'm not afraid for my wellbeing.

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in terms of who I work with or connect with or something like that, because I trust.

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This is where we start to see that trust develop.

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And that's another layer that I think gets ignored.

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And I still consider that part of base camp because level one is let's put food in your

backpack, right?

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Let's make sure you got the tent and the sleeping bag.

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Level two is, okay, now we're gonna make sure you have the ropes and the carabiners and

the right shoes and the right jacket and the right hat and all of the things to prep you

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to climb this mountain of Maslow.

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Yeah.

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And this, you're right.

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These two do get lumped together sometimes.

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And we want to separate those for you because safety needs is, is just use the word trust,

right?

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And if we're talking about this through the lens of coaching, when they get on a call with

you, they may not trust you yet.

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And an intro call, right?

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If you're starting your process,

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and you're going through a sales cycle and if you have a sales cycle that starts with an

intro call that then moves to a deep dive call, there needs to be a safety mechanism that

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is in there.

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And we have the scripting around that just that simply says, hey, today's an intro call.

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Today is an intro call and it's a two step process.

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Let's do two step processes.

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I'm gonna get to know you today and if we feel there's alignment, we're gonna move to the

next step which is a deep dive.

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So.

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let's just have a simple conversation that starts to build this layer of safety.

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Now, let's talk about through the lens, Jess, of being a coach to someone who needs safety

needs.

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Okay.

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Well, I think that's where you have to dive into why do they not feel safe, first of all.

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So it comes, like I said, it's not always completely physical safety, although it can be,

but a lot of it has to do with emotional safety.

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And so helping them through one, labeling it, right, identifying it, and then two,

creating an environment of safety is really what you would do in a coaching situation

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there.

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And it's a fine line.

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I'm not telling you to turn into a therapist by any means.

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And if it starts to broach that space, refer them to a therapist.

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But at the same time, helping them self-identify is a huge part of coaching here.

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And a lot of times people hire a coach because they don't have the ability to

self-identify and they need you to hold up that mirror for them.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, that's really really good.

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So creating that safety space for them in a trusting environment is massively important

for not only securing a client, but also retaining the client.

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Right?

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In that space of retainer, as you continue to develop this individual through whatever

process up this mountain, that safety component has to be established and created.

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100%.

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Before you move to level three, Jess, let's talk about that one.

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Yeah, so level three becomes your love and belonging needs.

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So this is acceptance, it's intimacy, it's community.

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So you're moving from protecting yourself to understanding how you relate to others here.

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So this is, and that's where, know, like when we draw Maslow Mountain for our coaches, our

Maslow Mountain really kind of has three parts because it starts with the physicality,

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right?

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So that's your food and your safety.

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And then it starts to move into the middle, which is more of a connection space.

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And that's where we really spend time at this level three, talking about the value of

community and not being in a silo.

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Yes, yes, for sure.

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And I'll stay in the one-on-one space here for a second.

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So the love and belongings.

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So once you've established the safety component in a coaching space, the love and

belonging comes next.

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Well, what do I mean by that?

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I can get on there and I can coach you numbers all day long.

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It's fantastic.

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And your business can move forward.

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That's fantastic.

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But what happens when you have a really bad day?

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What happens when you get on the coaching call with someone and they're like, I don't want

to talk business today.

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Right?

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And as Jess said, if you turn into a psychology coach, just be careful.

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Just be careful there.

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Don't turn into a psychiatrist where you are suggesting drugs.

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No, I'm totally kidding.

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This love and belonging space is, do you want me to feel this or fix this moment?

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Do you me to sit here and be there with you as you're going through a hard day?

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I have worked with clients before, Jess, in the business space who have gotten divorced.

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Right?

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Or who went through a divorce.

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Or...

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who went through really hard times.

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And if I didn't build the safety space first, they would not have come to me and say, hey,

Adam, today, I need you just to feel this because I'm going through a really hard time.

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And I need to know that this love, this belonging, I can feel that from you right now.

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And that's a good.

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is professional intimacy, and that only comes through safety and trust.

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And so that's why you cannot build trust with somebody without the safety being there and

their needs being met.

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Because you have to deepen the relationship beyond, I follow you on Instagram.

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to really develop that level of intimacy.

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And so I don't use that word specifically for, know, spousal relationships, partnerships,

that thing, but I mean, it works in this coaching space and in a business space as well.

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And so you have to feel like you can connect with somebody to keep moving them forward

towards things and to move them up the mountain at the same time.

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And the neat part about level two safety needs and level three love and belonging is is

they can kind of go hand in hand in the word of trust, right?

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Safety is going to build the trust and level three love and belonging is going to continue

to to strengthen that trust, right?

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It's going to really continue to strengthen that trust because now they feel that in you.

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And if we're talking in the community space, that community space, if you are leading a

community.

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You're establishing yourself as the authority and the same time they feel connected to

everyone else in there.

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If we look at our own community of I Love Coaching, it's so neat.

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We had a coach recently come into the community.

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Another coach in the community already knew this coach and their interaction inside of

there was super cool.

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was like, my gosh, I'm so excited that you are here, which instantly established a higher

level of safety and trust for the incoming new coach.

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And there was a sense of belonging right away as well because they knew each other.

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That was so cool to watch.

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Well, and that's where that naturally develops when there is that connection and that

intimacy into the level four, which is labeled as esteem needs.

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And so what I mean by that is now it's not just recognition, but it's respect.

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It's more, there's confidence in the relationship, not just, hey, I know your name.

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Yeah, those three words respect recognition and confidence right really pay Massive

dividends in your coaching space when when a client can feel that right that you're

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recognizing them that you respect them that that you're establishing confidence in them

and they have confidence in you my gosh that that's a that's a marriage made in heaven of

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longevity, that's a

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If you're doing the same thing in your coaching community, right?

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A whole nother podcast, the three P's, which we've already done, believe, uh, that is the

peer connection space of, of establishing that, right?

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Hey, I see our other coaches in here.

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They have massive respect for each other and they are giving each other kudos along the

way.

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Congratulations on getting 10 coaching clients.

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Congratulations on hitting $83,000 a month in, in monthly recurring revenue, right?

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That, is a really cool space and they're not.

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doing it inside the community from a gloating standpoint, Jess.

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What they're doing is they understand the need, right?

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The need of esteem there, the esteem need, and they're doing it in a safe place that they

know they're not going to be judged.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Well, that's where the judgment, the fear of judgment falls away very quickly because

there is a deeper connection, there's deeper trust, there's now a development of respect.

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And so there's no space for judgment in all of that.

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Mm-hmm.

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so it's a fascinating thing when you're talking to somebody and you see some level of fear

come up, some level of imposter syndrome come up, something like that.

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They're likely operating from one of those level one, level two spaces, not a level three

or four space.

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And so if you are talking to somebody who is either a client or potential client and

you're seeing some of that fear creep in, it probably means they're lower on these levels

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than you actually thought they were.

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And so that's why I made the joke about having that filter on your glasses is when you can

start to look at interactions with other humans, not to say that you should label them for

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them, but you can start to recognize kind of where they fall in this.

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And it can help you with your positioning, with the way that you're showing up, with the

space that you're creating.

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to help them because you can't be like, yeah, you're acting like a level four right now.

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Like that's not gonna work.

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But you can be like, my gosh, the thing that I'm trying to do for you, whether it's

connect you with somebody or provide you with a tool, it might not be landing because I

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thought you were here and you're down here, you know?

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And so.

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changing your perspective and recognizing that everybody believes they're level four or

level five and everything, but recognizing where they actually are is wildly different.

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Yep, so let's go to the last need, right?

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So again, all of these are needs.

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So far we've talked about the basic needs, then we've gone to the safety needs, then we've

gone to the love and belonging needs, then we've gone to the esteem needs, and the last

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one is the self-actualization need.

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And the self-actualization need is very, very simple.

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I've reached my full potential, or I'm reaching my full potential.

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And how frequently have we heard that?

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I want to reach my full potential, I to reach my full potential.

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And we're not going to go into the problems yet, but this is a big one.

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Again, this is the top of the mountain space.

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Maslow hierarchy of needs.

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This is a need.

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They need to know that they have reached their full potential.

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And again, in the coaching space, this is where with the right lenses, you can see if they

are at that ascension.

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to that very top of, hey, I see you've reached your full potential here.

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I see you've reached this level of establishing a goal and achieving that goal.

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There's many things that we can talk about here, but the neat part is the need, this is

their need, of reaching their full potential is part of this process.

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Yeah, I love that we're talking about this because like we said, it's physical needs, then

relational needs, and now we're at basically self needs again, but it's like self

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mentally, not self physically.

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And when I was taught this in undergrad and then again in grad school for education, it

was, hey, Maslow's theory was that basically everybody who desires, they have a need for

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self actualization, very few ever achieve it.

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And so I find this level very interesting because I do believe that everybody desires to

reach their full potential.

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Like that is a finish line in people's mind's eye, but it doesn't mean that they ever

actually get there.

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And so again, when it comes to positioning and understanding who you're talking to or who

you're working with, you have to understand that they may have set a...

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full potential finish line for themselves, but they're still running the race, which means

they're not there yet.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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Okay.

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So that's the five Maslow needs.

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We went through all five of those.

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Now we get the transition to the fun part here, Jess.

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This is where coaches get stuck, right?

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We've talked about it a little bit as we went through each one of them, though the biggest

one that we see, the biggest one that we see is again, let's go to the visual, the

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mountain top visual.

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You are at the top of the mountain.

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And, and coming back to some of Jess's language, you are so unaware of where they are on

their own needs space that you're standing at top of the mountain and you're saying, come

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on, you can reach your full potential.

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You've got this.

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Heck.

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Some of you have that on your Instagram bio.

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I help people reach their full potential.

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Well, well, it's not going to last.

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It's not going to work.

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It's not going to attract people because there are people at the

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And so if you're at the top of this mountain yelling down, come on kid, you can reach your

full potential.

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And all they want to do is be able to pay their bills.

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They're not going to be attracted to you.

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They're not going to align with you.

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And they're quite frankly, not going to trust you.

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And that's where you could get, and I'm just speaking from example, personal experience

here, Jess, because I lived in this language for so long of attempting to

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to help people say, you can reach your full potential kid.

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And they're like, you're a slimy used car salesman.

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And I was like, but I don't feel like it.

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It's because I wasn't meeting them where they were on their needs.

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Right, well it's literally positioning and it's such a simple concept and this is why we

joke about me needing the tattoo because I've been telling this to Adam since the day we

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met basically about this hierarchy and how it's a filter.

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And so what coaches struggle with the most, the problem is, is like you said, their

mountains, let's say it's their coaching mountain or their business mountain.

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It doesn't even have to be their life mountain.

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They're standing at the top of their achievement and they are literally trying to throw a

rope from the top of their mountain down to their person who's at base camp and through

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sheer will pull them up.

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Yep.

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Right?

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And if you've ever even tried to rock climb or, you know, play uh Lion King with like the

Simba and the Mufasa hanging off the edge with a friend on a playground, I don't care.

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Pulling somebody's body weight up anything is difficult.

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And a playground is two feet off the ground.

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You know, a mountain is hundreds or thousands of feet.

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You're not going to be able to do it, which is where the disconnect falls in.

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So even if it's

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your Instagram bio is not connecting, everything else behind that Instagram bio might not

connect as well because you're literally trying to work against gravity.

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You're trying to work against their preparedness and their ability.

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Because again, when we were talking about base camp, they haven't packed the backpack.

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They have no food.

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They have no water.

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They don't feel safe.

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They don't have the boots.

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They don't have the carabiners.

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They don't have the rope.

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And so you throwing something down to them is not setting them up for any level of success

when you're like, the views are incredible, come on up.

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And that's why I'm passionate about this.

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And you got me started.

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Well, here's the neat thing.

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So let's help now.

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And that's always the biggest hurdle is the positioning from, we'll keep using the word

coach because that's who we coach, the position from the leader to their avatar.

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Now, let's say you're a keynote speaker.

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You could actually incorporate

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all five levels into a keynote so it lands with all five levels of the people in the

audience.

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Or if you knew who was in the audience ahead of time, and let's say that it was a top of

funnel that was a very simple language, I help people put more food on the table.

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Great, we know we're at the bottom of this and so our language needs to be aligned with

people who have

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a basic needs standpoint.

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So you can put...

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at a keynote, you're not gonna talk level five.

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So I'm gonna push back on that.

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You're gonna reach, I know, but any stage, you need to be speaking towards the lower

levels first, no matter where you are and where your people are in their journey, because

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that is gonna capture more attention and create more instant connection for you to develop

trust and move them through or up the mountain.

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You don't have instant trust, so you should not be trying to speak to a trust-building

space without earning it first.

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Well, here's the thing.

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I agree with that though, in the same breath, you can establish that type of language

throughout a keynote if you want to.

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Right?

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Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

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You can hit the levels throughout the keynote.

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No, you're not going to hit level five and you're not going to close anybody at level

five.

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Though in the same thing is, is to help you in this space is know who, what, where, when,

how on the five levels, you are speaking to someone to ensure your language aligns with

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them.

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Mm-hmm.

360

Yes.

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So any stage, you should not be talking from the top of the mountain and saying, the view

is great up here, come on up.

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And so instead of trying to pull somebody up, I really think we should talk about the

appropriate way to move them up the mountain.

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Okay, let's do it.

364

Okay.

365

So, well, again, it's, it's, think we've already done that in explaining each level here.

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So it depends on what coaching space that you are in, right?

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So there are approaches for establishing trust, which we've talked about, right?

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It's, it's, if you're in a sales cycle and it's a one-on-one space, you're going to do an

introductory call first.

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Right?

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And you're going to establish some of their basic needs right then and there with your

curiosity questions.

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Because if you get on an intro call and it's all about you, won't want you lose.

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Okay?

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Then when you go to the deep dive, if you're using our deep dive script, you got questions

to A, B, and D where you are going to establish trust.

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So right then and there, if you're going into a one-on-one space, you're actually done

because now you know their basic needs and you've started to establish trust.

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And so it's okay to go into and say, this is how I help people move forward.

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Yeah, I was thinking about it and and you saying all of that is Establishing that you

understand where they are not speaking to where you are and a great way to do that is

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we've talked about this language before with Donald Miller story brand is You are their

guide up the mountain.

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You are not throwing the rope down the mountain

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And so this is you're meeting them at base camp, making sure their bags are packed, making

sure they have the right equipment as the guide.

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I mean, you can use, if you want to use mountain language, Sherpa, you know, and, and the

reason they trust you or they start to trust you is because they know that you've done

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this already.

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So you have experience in it, but you're not standing at the top, just going, come on.

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Don't forget to put that in your bag.

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You're actually standing there next to them and walking them through the process.

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And that to me is the place that every coach, consultant, speaker, trainer, whatever has

massive opportunity is to convert themselves from the hero that looks like they've flown

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to the top of the mountain with their superpowers saying, my gosh, you should look at the

view to turning into the Sherpa guide that walks alongside the client.

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and helps them get to the outcome arm in arm or carabiner and carabiner instead of, you

know, just telling them what to do directionally.

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And so that to me, again, like I said, big, big difference in positioning.

389

So that was good because you started to tease the next one.

390

Our next episode here is going to be what does your mountaintop look like?

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And as you now learn these five needs is how do we explain what this mountaintop is that

they can achieve once they go through their five phases, as they go from their base camp

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to summit.

393

That's what we're gonna teach you language-wise, a little bit of language-wise, but also

through these needs standpoint next.

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But Jess, don't give too much away.

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I'm not trying to, but I'm also laughing because this is one of our longer episodes and I

feel like I haven't talked about anything yet.

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And that's why you said it could be three hours easy because of the fact that this is such

a relatable thing to any industry, but it's especially applicable to somebody building a

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coaching business.

398

That's right.

399

Yep.

400

I couldn't agree more.

401

Okay.

402

So we got to stop.

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We got to stop because we could be here for the next two and a half hours.

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I said three hours.

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So thank you all for listening.

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And what we want you to do, we teach this, we coach this, we share this.

407

Just, are we going to give the picture in the, in the show notes, by the way, this, the,

Maslow?

408

Oh, sorry guys.

409

what they'll have to do is they'll have to hop into our Get Paid to Coach Guide.

410

We got some of the language around there.

411

And that also allows them to get in our email list where we give more of this information

out.

412

So if you head over to ilovecoachingco.com, go ahead and grab a copy of that free Get Paid

to Coach Guide, because this is where we start having these conversations and really help

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people figure out whether they're trying to be a hero or Sherpa.

414

That's really good.

415

Okay, go do that.

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We'll see you next time.

417

See you.

418

Bye.