Shownotes
Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 6 Episode 11 of People Soup, it's Ross McIntosh here.
In this episode I welcome back Dr Eric Goodman to the podcast. Eric is an expert in treating anxiety and OCD, an author and a pioneer in the use of ACT and CFT, both with his patients and in his writing. Eric's People Soup ingredients are anxiety and compassion, with a healthy sprinkle of vulnerability. You'll hear Eric talk about his near daily cold water immersion and dear listener - you'll also hear how I commit to having a go - would I let you down P-Soupers? You'll find out at the end of this episode. Eric also talks about his fear of flying which developed as a young man and one of the darkest moments of his life on the operating table. It's a conversation full of wisdom and vulnerability.
And just a note that this episode was recorded in the run up to the US elections. I also had some problems with the sound quality at my end, which I've done my best to address.
For those of you who are new to People Soup - welcome - it's great to have you here - I aim to provide you with ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond. For those of you who are regular P Soupers - thanks for tuning in - we love it that you're part of our community.
I worked with Russ from A Modern Remedy on my new brand and website. A Modern Remedy is a human-focused strategic design studio, delivering innovative solutions for people & planet. I'd thoroughly recommend working with AMR and you can check out their website here.
There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.
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Transcripts
PART ONE FINAL
[:[00:00:06] Eric: And, there's people swirling around me and I remember there was, there was this bodybuilder type guy and he's standing above me while I'm lying on the, on the gurney. And he, he looks, he's just staring at me and I asked him, what's his role here?
[:[00:00:51] And of course that wasn't something that had entered my mind that that was a possibility. And I am just in a very dark place. And in this moment of this dark place, my inner critic shows up.
[:[00:01:35] you'll hear Eric talk about his near daily cold water immersion. And dear listener, you'll also hear how I commit to having a go. Would I let you down, pea soupers? You'll find out at the end of the episode. Eric also talks about his fear of flying, which developed as a young man, and one of the darkest moments of his life on the operating table, It's a conversation full of wisdom and vulnerability.
[:[00:02:30] I'd love it if you checked out my new website, which you can find at rossmcintosh.co.Uk. And there's plenty of information to browse, and you can even sign up for my newsletter. Thanks
[:[00:03:01] Dr. Eric Goodman, welcome back to PeopleSoup.
[:[00:03:08] Ross: Well, we're delighted
[:[00:03:12] department, Eric, and they've done a bit more digging on you to find out some interesting snippets. So, I'm going to have a go at presenting them back to you.
[:[00:03:22] Ross: So, it says here, Eric is a licensed psychologist and author of three books.
[:[00:03:38] And that one we spoke about in a previous episode, which I'll link to in the show notes. And the new book, The Mindful Freakout, A Rescue Manual for Being at Your Best When Life is at its Worst. So folks, as you may have gathered, Eric specializes in the treatment of anxiety disorders and obsessive compulsive disorder. And I'd just like to say I've learned so much from [00:04:00] conversations with Eric and his
[:[00:04:19] Eric: So far, so good.
[:[00:04:21] Eric earned his Ph. D. at Northeastern University in
[:[00:04:28] treatment approach is cognitive behavioral therapy with an
[:[00:04:49] you. One is that you tend to start every
[:[00:05:02] Eric: I, I do. My son started doing that,
[:[00:05:06] about, uh, three years ago. And I thought,
[:[00:05:16] up and it's, you know, in the, in the winter getting up, we're still dark out and
[:[00:05:23] goes and sits in this cold plunge. And, uh, He asked me if I would want to try it and I
[:[00:05:33] That
[:[00:05:35] water. but I began to notice that he had more energy and he was in a better mood and he was more focused. And so I thought I would give it a try and, and within a few days of doing it, this chronic pain that I had dealt with for 12 years and had seen multiple
[:[00:06:01] And no, no one was
[:[00:06:04] And within a few days, the pain just disappeared. went away. and as long as I do it most days of the week, then the pain stays away. Um, so it's, it's, uh, it's been a
[:[00:06:21] Ross: Wow. And is this tub, is it outside,
[:[00:06:26] Eric: It is.
[:[00:06:29] garden
[:[00:06:31] your initial reaction to your son doing this is probably mine.
[:[00:06:38] heated, but even in the hottest days of summer I will
[:[00:06:42] what my husband calls camp noises when I immerse myself in the water, particularly when it reaches my nether regions.
[:[00:06:58] Eric: so part of the trick to it is using it as a mindfulness strategy. And you can do this with your pool as you, as you step in, notice the cold without hooking onto that story that your mind tells you that, that this is bad and you shouldn't feel it, but soften your muscles into it. The minute, so this is very actually relevant to some of the stuff that I
[:[00:07:29] The minute you struggle against the cold, your suffering
[:[00:07:52] it's a completely
[:[00:07:53] Eric: different experience. Now, the first time I, I tried to get into
[:[00:08:04] son was having, I stuck my foot
[:[00:08:16] not, not doing this.
[:[00:08:27] and it makes a huge
[:[00:08:32] week, but, but if I ever
[:[00:08:36] struggle when I
[:[00:08:41] discomfort. But the minute you let go and you soften
[:[00:09:00] Ross: Well, Eric, you're a man I trust and respect, so I
[:[00:09:07] go.
[:[00:09:13] right? And so now it's just really trying
[:[00:09:23] Ross: Wow. Watch this space, PSupers. I'll keep you posted. And I'll keep you posted too,
[:[00:09:29] Eric: Sounds good.
[:[00:09:33] that you had a debilitating
[:[00:09:36] your early years. And it felt like that's
[:[00:09:41] So is that true?
[:[00:10:08] And so I'm deep asleep on this flight. And randomly I'm sitting next to my philosophy professor. And at some point in the flight, She shakes me rather firmly, shakes me awake and says we're not going to make it. We're not going to make it. and, you know, and her face is in my face and, and, and, and, uh, she just looks terrified.
[:[00:11:01] She says, we're, we're going down. and she's, she's having a panic attack. And, you know, what I now know is a panic attack. And she's just really, uh, behaving based on her threat system. And I tell her again, we're fine, I fall back to sleep. And about two or three other times in the flight she does this to me.
[:[00:11:51] And, uh, my, uh, my mom and my grandmother, they each grabbed my arms on either side and give [00:12:00] it a tug out of their own fear of the turbulence. And that's when I had my first panic attack on, on an airplane. And then went on for about, Ten years of very, uh, uh, severe phobia flying any time on a plane, I would be having panic attacks, and, uh, if I had a flight in three months, I would be having nightmares and, and just, you know, losing sleep, in the, in the run up to the, uh, to the flight.
[:[00:12:59] And I just kind of had this aha moment. And I stopped struggling. I stopped doing all these safety behaviors. And it just sat and I just gave myself permission to feel anxious.
[:[00:13:25] and, then I just kind of plateaued for about a decade. And, and it wasn't until, I, I started to, to do more teaching on the subject of, of fears and phobias. And I got curious, why did I get stuck? And, and it wasn't that I had to get better than I got. So, you know, from an act standpoint.
[:[00:14:04] manageable, but I was curious and I wanted to know why, just for my own, uh, you know, benefit and, and, and, you know, when I go to help my clients and they're stuck, I want to know what's keeping them
[:[00:14:30] that's inadvertently teaching my brain threat. And so I get on and the first thing I do is I put on very
[:[00:14:45] And I didn't think about it as a control strategy until that moment that I'm trying not to feel anxious on the plane by playing that music. But by doing that, I'm also thread associating anxiety. I'm telling my brain. That it's bad for me to feel anxious on the plane. And if it's bad to feel anxious on the plane, then you're going to feel anxious about your anxiety.
[:[00:15:27] is. But it's that also, it's that
[:[00:15:35] uh, trick my
[:[00:15:38] And, and it's helpful in the
[:[00:15:57] movie off and I [00:16:00] would sit up in my seat and just notice I'm on a plane and notice that everything's fine.
[:[00:16:08] was a few other kind of subtle safety things I was doing and, and be able to catch that and, and play the rule of opposites, right? If I felt like I needed to, uh, distract myself, then I would pay more attention. and, uh, that, uh, Helped immensely, so did that over a few flights and now, I'm pretty much flying wherever in the world I want to fly without, my anxiety worrying so much about it, which is great.
[:[00:16:46] Eric: That's right.
[:[00:16:50] our threat systems, right? Our, our
[:[00:16:53] systems, they're not sophisticated. They're not, they don't live or
[:[00:16:58] part of our brains. They're in a more primitive part. And what our anxiety.
[:[00:17:11] And fight or flight is another word for anxiety. So if a bear is chasing me, it perceives that as a threat and it activates fight or flight gives me my best chance to survive. But if public speaking is a fear,
[:[00:17:27] treat as a threat, it's going to activate fight or flight for me to do
[:[00:17:34] perceived threat is. But
[:[00:17:41] any other ways of handling it. So if the threat is fear, it's going to activate fear to combat the fear. As goofy as that sounds, that's what it does. So when you fear your fear, you have more fear.
[:[00:17:58] Eric: Like, like [00:18:00] I tell my clients, anxiety does not live in the
[:[00:18:06] Ross: Was your experience with anxiety related to flying, was that part of the reason you started to move towards your specialism?
[:[00:18:29] reason why I became a, an anxiety specialist. Um,
[:[00:18:36] was a reason.
[:[00:18:38] Ross: and just changing tack slightly, there's something we
[:[00:18:41] our first chat. Yeah. Yeah. And it
[:[00:18:44] to come back to it
[:[00:18:47] use of virtual reality in your, in your therapy and your treatment of people. I'd love to hear a bit more about that and if, I guess there may have been
[:[00:18:59] Eric: Well, I, I live in a small seaside college town. So if I have a client that has a phobia of, uh, going up in high elevators or being up in
[:[00:19:14] it just doesn't exist where, where I live. so virtual reality is a
[:[00:19:23] of a wide
[:[00:19:33] Ross: for say
[:[00:19:36] how it, how it
[:[00:19:39] Eric: Yeah. So, you know, typically I talk to them about it and typically if they're not familiar with virtual reality, they think, well, this, you know, it's not real. Uh, I'm not actually going on a skyscraper, so it won't impact me. But the reality is, is that A [00:20:00] Well, done VR system
[:[00:20:04] where it, it feels like you're actually there.
[:[00:20:15] virtual reality. and
[:[00:20:24] react in a similar way to it would if you were actually in that place. Because it it doesn't understand that these are just pixels.
[:[00:20:34] and sound effects. So, um, Clients tend to
[:[00:20:45] heights or snakes and, and then I'll, uh, intersperse some fantastical, uh, VR game in it. You know, it's all right, you've done a great job facing your fears. Here's a little reward and
[:[00:21:03] uh, fun game. And that Helps make the experience more
[:[00:21:09] so people, uh, I think there, there is
[:[00:21:12] research that
[:[00:21:16] experience of exposure therapy,
[:[00:21:19] ways to uh, to have humor about it or or to,
[:[00:21:26] on some level parts of it
[:[00:21:30] that there is an outcome benefit for that.
[:[00:21:34] do it, you, you just kind of hate the whole process.
[:[00:21:39] hear and how useful that.
[:[00:21:41] tech can be given,
[:[00:21:46] Eric: Yeah.
[:[00:21:49] fun way to face a fear.
[:[00:21:55] book, where you're blending ACT and CFT, when did you first [00:22:00] begin
[:[00:22:06] was also in your, in your last book, but I just wondered where the origin
[:[00:22:10] Trained as old school CBT guy
[:[00:22:34] Um, and I, uh, Trying to remember actually how I got into ACT. Uh, I was an early adopter. so I was, I was into ACT when, uh, ACT was the, the new kid on the block that CBT hated. They looked at it as, as a rival and, and, and the CBT
[:[00:23:02] but I got into ACT and, and then did a, uh, a five day bootcamp with, uh, Steven Hayes and some of the other, uh, act, uh, pros. And it was just life changing, right? and, you know, if you're listeners know about ACT and, and you know, a bad act, this, this stuff is really life changing. When you stop struggling with your experience and, and.
[:[00:23:49] thoughts, you know, come to mind, yet choose your own direction in life. Because when we're not psychologically flexible, [00:24:00] we're going to be led around by our emotions and they're going to drive our behaviors. And sometimes that's going to be really good and other times not, not so much. And so I was, uh, I began to, uh, to, uh, work with act in my practice and I began to teach it to, to students.
[:[00:24:50] And she invited me to, to this training by this guy, Paul Gilbert. That I had never heard of him and, you know, it was on compassion focused therapy. And I go, all right, well, I'm a therapist and compassion is probably a pretty good thing. And, and so, uh, I went to, to do it. And, and it's just a, just a really eye opening sort of, uh, training, on par, at least with, with what I got from, from the act work.
[:[00:25:46] So I started to practice I'm not sure if you've heard of the, the meta meditation.
[:[00:25:53] so.
[:[00:26:16] And, then you, you, you move on to like, you know, someone who's not kind of on the periphery of your life and then you practice giving yourself some compassion. So it gets a lot harder with that because most people are really good at being compassionate to others and, and, and just. Not so good, uh, to say the least, at being self compassionate.
[:[00:27:10] He didn't choose to have, uh, you know, cold, neglectful parents and to get shipped off to, to military school and, you know, the, the kind of the, the, the monstrous sort of person that he's, he's become, he, he didn't get a say in that. and, and so you practice with that and if there's someone that you're really upset with and you do this on a regular basis.
[:[00:27:57] It's, it's been around for thousands of years and [00:28:00] there's a lot of research. on that particular exercise. And, and if you put a link to my website, I have recordings, audio recordings on my side of this one and in a number of other, compassion focused and act sorts of exercises. so anyway, so I started doing this meta meditation and I'm doing it every day and I'm thinking, Oh, that's nice.
[:[00:28:45] And, uh, because I had a kidney transplant when I was, uh, you know, uh, younger. I don't have a, an immune system that's good at fighting these things off. And I'm getting sicker and, my primary care doc gives me the talk about, you know, just to be on the safe side, you should probably get your affairs in order.
[:[00:29:15] lungs. And my doctor says, you know, we gotta rule
[:[00:29:34] And I'm on the table and I am probably the most frightened I've ever been in my life. And, there's people swirling around me and I remember there was, there was this bodybuilder type guy and he's standing above me while I'm lying on the, on the gurney. And he, he looks, he's just staring at me and I asked him, what's his role [00:30:00] here?
[:[00:30:28] And of course that wasn't something that had entered my mind that that was a possibility. And I am just in a very dark place. And in this moment of this dark place, my inner critic shows up.
[:[00:31:04] flips and and all that compassion work kicks in. And in my head, I kind of, step outside of, of the situation and I see this critic beaten up on me and I tell it to, uh, am I allowed to use salty language?
[:[00:31:37] putting my hand on my
[:[00:31:42] than it is. This is what this feels like, right?
[:[00:31:50] And with this, this, this tone
[:[00:31:55] I felt
[:[00:31:58] was talking about. I [00:32:00] felt This tremendous sense of inner strength. This wisdom to not judge myself. For the experience, because it literally could not have felt
[:[00:32:17] same way. And then I had this deep, deep commitment to wanting to be helpful. And, this sense of
[:[00:32:31] still there. but this sense of peace with it and And, And
[:[00:32:41] I go just completely in that moment.
[:[00:32:46] me lives, who's just kind of noticing
[:[00:32:50] goes, what the
[:[00:32:54] It's amazing and, and I'm, it was really one of the, one of the
[:[00:33:00] amazing experiences of my life And and then I went under anesthesia
[:[00:33:07] figured
[:[00:33:08] on with my lungs and I survived and, made a full recovery.
[:[00:33:16] that power and, and And, as much as
[:[00:33:20] given me so much,
[:[00:33:27] power of compassion and to be able to, to, begin to, combine that with act.
[:[00:33:36] for, for my teaching, use it for my clients
[:[00:33:41] And that, that
[:[00:33:42] got turned on, it's, it's never, gone back,
[:[00:33:47] there. And so
[:[00:33:50] comes up.
[:[00:33:54] this inner
[:[00:33:56] and, I can't recall a time [00:34:00] since that moment where I've beaten myself up for, for anything.
[:[00:34:15] Now I'd love to just
[:[00:34:19] Song Choice
[:[00:34:27] your arrival in a room, whether virtual or real, that would play on your arrival for the next, say, two to three months. It's not forever. Do you have a song choice that you'd share
[:[00:35:12] I know I did, uh, Time, from Pink Floyd last time. but I might pick, uh, On the Turning Away, from Pink Floyd, which, uh, is a little bit about, compassion. but. If I was going to be practical or pragmatic, given, we are going through This election and, and there is this sense of, uh, threat that's just kind of permeates the air in
[:[00:35:45] It's, a, it's a new
[:[00:35:48] did some research with this song. And
[:[00:35:52] the, the research showed up in a, journal. and as they
[:[00:35:58] they randomly [00:36:00] assigned
[:[00:36:00] to listen to this song,
[:[00:36:06] medication, which is
[:[00:36:10] And they found that for, easing
[:[00:36:13] both worked equally
[:[00:36:15] Ross: That's it, folks.
[:[00:36:51] I'll keep you posted on developments. You'll find the show notes for this episode at People Soup Captivate fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. you can email me at people soup dot po@gmail.com.
[:[00:37:30] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic, and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, Peasoopers, and bye for now.
[:[00:37:44] make
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