In this episode, Brian interviews Lisa Cotter, a keynote speaker at the Catholic Women for Christ Conference. They discuss Lisa's faith journey, her books on dating and the feminine genius, and the importance of understanding and incorporating the feminine genius in parishes. Lisa emphasizes the unique person-oriented disposition of women and the need for trust and collaboration between men and women in ministry. She also highlights the importance of knowing and valuing each person's story and gifts in order to effectively evangelize. The episode concludes with a prayer for all parish ministers and listeners.

Takeaways

• Understanding and valuing the feminine genius is crucial for effective evangelization in the Church.
• Women have a unique person-oriented disposition and are naturally receptive and maternal.
• Collaboration and trust between men and women in ministry is essential for reaching hearts and effectively serving the Church.
• Knowing and valuing each person's story and gifts is key to effective evangelization and building relationships in parishes.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background

3:06 Lisa's Faith Journey

8:03 Lisa's Books: Dating Detox and Reveal the Gift

31:15 Incorporating the Feminine Genius in Parishes

35:25 Closing Prayer

Keywords:

faith journey, feminine genius, Catholic Women for Christ Conference, dating, Reveal the Gift, collaboration, ministry, evangelization, parish, person-oriented disposition, trust, men and women, effective evangelization, relationships, prayer, keynote speaker, books, understanding, valuing, unique, maternal, story, gifts, Church,

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Music: Wildfire by Mary Kate Westrich. Used with permission.

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Sometimes they're never shorter than that. Sometimes they're longer. Do you know Pete Barack? Yeah! We went for like...

getting very long.

Breaking into two episodes, yeah. He did the men's conference too, which was great. Oh, fine. Did you get to record with Dr. Shreve, Ted? No, because the snow messed up our schedule. So we were supposed to. But it took us an hour or longer to get back here than it was supposed to because the roads were bad. So I got an IOU. Yeah. We'll see. Just bring me back in front of their conference. Exactly. He's like, I'd love to do the women's conference. And I said, well, we'll see. We'll see about that. He's the only.

guy I know who I've ever seen do a women's conference. Jeff Kavan said the same thing when we had him. He's like, I'd love to come back and do the women's. I love women's conferences. Oh, funny. Interesting. You never see women's who get men's conferences. That's exactly right, which is kind of my, like, I'm not opposed to it. And women aren't generally opposed to it, like all the surveys I've done and stuff. But men would die. Yeah. They would literally die. Yeah. Yeah. They would not see it themselves. All right. So I will.

Let's pray first and then we'll dive right in. How's it sound? And then at the end of the episode, I'll ask you to take us out in prayer. Okay. I can do that. I think you've, you're prepared to pray spontaneously. I've been trained. Perfect. Great. In the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Lord Jesus, we just pause here and gather in your name. We know that you are here with us. You remember your presence with us.

In the busyness of our day and the chaos of our day, Lord, we just give it to you. We know that you are the Lord of our lives. You have a great plan for each one of us, Lord. We ask that you would continue to just draw us close to you and near to your heart. Make us just disciples pursuing after you, Lord. I pray in particular for this conversation, just that it would be

Just what folks need in the parishes, Lord, that those who would listen would be blessed by it, that hearts would be opened, minds would be opened, Lord, and you just continue to help our archdiocese just spread your name and love of you in every corner. We pray this in your holy name. Amen. Amen.

Ready? Okay, welcome back to the Go and Make podcast. We are really excited for this week's guest. This week in the Archdiocese of St. Louis is the Catholic Women for Christ Conference, and one of our keynote speakers for the conference is here with us today, so we welcome Lisa Cotter. Hi. And Lisa's not just a speaker at Catholic Women for Christ, but she's a

former classmate at Benedictine as well. So I get made fun of sometimes for having too many Benedictine references in the podcast, but I'm not sure there's such a thing as too many. And I don't know if you can help it. It just, well, it just comes out. Yeah, it's just exactly. It's a special time in my life where I learned so much and grew so much. And I feel like that place is anointed. I don't know. Absolutely. It's so fun to be here. Yes, with a former classmate. Here we are.

the show. Yeah, and I think that, you know, your ministry now has really grown out of, like, the same person I saw in college, right? So this is not like, you know, Lisa Cotter sought out to be a Catholic speaker and be on the circuit and everything like that. It was that in college you were leading Bible studies, you were investing in other women.

you saw a need, and you just continued to say yes every step along the way. So one of the things we like to do here on the podcast is just to hear your own faith story, your own journey. So we'll talk more about the work you're doing and how it relates to evangelization, our one mission as a church. But maybe you could just tell us about how you came to love the Lord enough to say yes to where you are now. Yeah. I mean, I think my story starts like a lot of Catholics, right?

I was born and raised Catholic, I'm cradle Catholic. Cradle Catholic, went to Catholic schools. But really, it wasn't until late in my high school years that I really started to make my faith my own. Just through a lot of experiences. There wasn't that one moment that was like, and then I knew that was the truth. It was just kind of a firm, steady stream of experiences and opportunities. And then...

Really was, yeah, my senior year that I decided like, I'm gonna go all in. Like this is, I had kind of lived, you know, kind of the double life, right? Like there's Friday night, Lisa. And then there was youth group Sunday night, Lisa, for a long time. And then eventually like it worked until it didn't, right? Like my heart just became restless. And so it was really senior year that I guess I took a stand and said, no, I'm tired of trying to do both. So I'm just gonna.

I'm just gonna go all in Lord and like, you better show up. Like it was like a challenge to him, right? Like, cause I'm gonna have to give up a lot for this and I'm not sure if you can follow through. And of course he did, right? Never turned back. So from there went to Benedictine, majored in youth ministry because I thought youth ministers were cool. All of life was youth ministry, right? Yeah, come that was all I was living.

Yeah, so I got my degree in religious studies at the time. Now it's theology, right? And youth ministry. And then straight out of college, got married and really kind of thought, you know, well, first of all, like I knew I was like, like sold out. Like this is the truth. I'm done. Like, you know, by the time I really was, you know, shortly into college, I remember once having this thought, I was like, am I going to do this Jesus thing for the rest of my life? Or is this just like,

Like the thing I do, because it's what all my friends do, you know? And then kind of really hit a point where I was like, no, yeah, I'm doing this for rest of my life. I'm all in. I'm all in. Yeah, so just like all those touch and go little moments there. But then, yeah, so my husband and I, we got married right out of college. And then he went to the Augusta Institute and got his master's. One of the early, early students of the Augusta Institute. Yes, he was in the first graduating class. First graduating class. Pretty wild, yeah. And I was actually the only.

you know this, but I was the only full -time employee when they opened their doors, which is super fun on that first day of school. So yeah, started out, you know, just like straight into ministry. And then I don't know exactly what we thought he was going to do for sure after he finished his master's. I think we thought he was going to a ton of money. Yeah, that was it. He went to get a master's in theology so he could just ball out. Yeah, that was it. That was somehow he's going to become really rich off of his scripture degree. So we thought, I think we thought he was going to teach, but then we ended up, um,

feeling called, like literally got a call, someone saying like, would you consider applying to Focus? My first thought was, no. Again, relatively early days of Focus compared to where they are now, too. Yes, and the whole married staff didn't really have a home Not a huge. Yeah, not a thing. And we had a baby. And I was like, we didn't just go for two years to get a master's. You can go fundraiser salary, and we can continue to be really, really poor, right?

But we said yes and did that for 11 years. And it was really during that time that kind of my ministry started to pick up. Not at all intentional, like you said, that I did not set out like I want to like give my life to Jesus in this way. I thought I was going to teach as well. But Kevin, my husband, felt called to grad school. So I was like, well, then I'll do this while you're in grad school so we can be near each other and together. And I thought I would do youth ministry and God just kind of took it in a different direction. But it's been a really fun ride.

really grateful for all the steps, all the milestones, all the things we've hit. He works now for the Hallow app, which is quite wild. Killing it. Yeah, everyone loves Hallow, yeah. Yes, so that has been really fun. And now we have four kids and raising them to the best of our abilities, right? The first people we're evangelizing are four children, 17 to five, and really enjoying these.

these later stages actually of having teen kids who you get to teach how do we share the faith, how do we live our faith. So fun. To watch them grow up and start to own it is a whole like my son has turned 12 yesterday and we were just telling him how proud we are of the man he's become and he had a great moment and this is like just sums it up right you're like you're investing and then you start to see him do the same with his little brother so yeah.

We had a moment. They were walking through Costco or something. And Stanley, who's our little six -year -old kindergartner, but he's not little. He's massive. My wife is six feet tall. He is a head taller than everyone in the class. And they were like, Stanley, are you the biggest kid in class? He's like, yeah. He's like, are you the toughest kid in class? He's like, yeah. And Gus goes, well, Stanley, you know what that means? You have to be the nicest kid in class. You have to look out for the smallest and the weakest. And you have to make sure that everyone feels loved. And I was like, this is Gus teaching him.

I was like, so to watch them own it, isn't that so sweet? That is awesome. Because that's what we talk about with him. And this is what it means to be a man of faith. And so it's so fun to watch them grow up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I guess, yeah, they're kind of in a nutshell how we got to where we are. And you've written a couple books as well. So.

Can you name them for me? Because I want to make sure I get them all. I get it. No, no. So Dating Detox. I know what they're about. I just don't remember the exact title. No worries. No worries. No worries. It's Dating Detox, which is 40 days of perfecting love in an imperfect world. And that really book flew, flew, flowed? Floated? Right. We'll just make up words today. Everybody knows what I'm talking about. Professional speaker, ladies and gentlemen. That's right. I don't know tenses, but I'll come to your conference. That's right.

So that book, yeah, came out of so many years in focus, watching young adults come to our SEEK conference. And then later years, I started speaking at the student youth conferences, watching them come and having this life changing radical conversion of the heart and realizing, wow, I made for more than what the world has been telling me. Wow, I don't want to live in this hookup culture. I don't want to date this way anymore.

And so they go home and they'd be like, I'm going to change everything. Three weeks later, what happens? Right back to where they were. Right back to where they because they don't know how. They don't know what to do. It's like, I want this. I understand my worth, value, and dignity now, but I can't. I don't have any plan. And so that book is really a plan. It's a 40 -day process book. You read a chapter a day for 40 days, and it takes you from that desire, that wanting it, wanting that virtue of chastity, to being able to live it. So it gives you the freedom to love and be loved. It's the goal and the hope of the book.

a companion to go with you. We just did a dating panel for our high school youth group, my wife and I helped out with. We got some young adult couples and everyone told their love story and gave dating advice and tips, you know. And my goal, of course, was to crush the hopes and dreams of all the high schoolers about like, you're soulmate and God, you know, God has a perfect plan for you, but it's not like you can screw it up. And there's another perfect plan after that. And but they all just have such funny ideas about dating sometimes. And they're putting

you know, before they've learned who they are and their own identity, they're putting everything they have into these relationships and trying to find meaning. And anytime you're trying to find meaning outside of the Lord's plan for you, there's a real danger there. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And it's called dating detox, not because like they're toxic or they've been in a toxic relationship or something, but the culture they're trying to date in is toxic. And it's telling them lies like...

there's this soulmate and you better go out there and find them or your life's gonna be ruined and you're gonna be lonely for the rest of your life. And you're like, whoa, like that goes against free will actually. We have to have the freedom to choose. That really is the one thing that the kids like latch onto more than anything. When you say there's not your one and only and they just, they're looking like you're crazy. Yeah. But that idea that like, if, if God's perfect plan, if I could screw up God's perfect plan for me, which I can, then you start to like,

act out of fear instead of hope and out of trust. So it really changes the whole perspective on everything. Yeah, everything becomes like a game. Like, I've got to win this. And it's just, yeah, it's not a place where you need to be dating from. Right. Not going to lead to what you're looking for. Yeah. It's fun to watch them, again, just with your own kids. You invest in these youth ministry kids. It's fun to watch them start to get it a little bit too, though, or then see them ask the follow -up questions and things. But I mean,

talk about evangelization in the church, and when the church talks about evangelization, so much of it starts with identity, of understanding who we are. So, when the church talks about it, they always say, you have to, as a church, it starts internally, you look at yourself, and the church that wants to evangelize must first be evangelized. And so, that foundational identity of who we are in Christ is the foundation for all external movements, always. And so, it's the same in that kind of dating relationship. We have to have a foundation of,

I know who I am, I know how God made me, and then I can start to move externally. But we don't like to spend that kind of internal time as a culture very often. Yeah, we want to find our identity outside of ourselves. And God's like, whoa, whoa, hold back. First, let's come back to me. Let's come back to how I created you, what you were created in, you were made to love and be loved. All these beautiful things that, yeah, it's not, you know, you don't see that.

in the dating apps, right? Right, no, it's just swipe one way or the other. It's all or nothing, right? Yeah. Totally, yeah. Yeah. So that's Dating Detox. And then my other book I have is Reveal the Gift, Living the Feminine Genius. So... Available at Ascension Press, right? That's right, yes. I always tell people, like, I think the two things we get wrong the most in our society today are...

dating and gender. So I wrote a book on both. There you go. You're very popular. Now I can retire from writing. No one has any mean things to say about you about those things. Oh my gosh. I know. I was like, I'm shooting myself in the foot. There's no way this is going to be a five star book. Because if I say what needs to be said, people are going to get upset, which is fine. And you do get trolls who come on and just give you a one star review. You're like, dude, you didn't leave any kind of comment. We've had a few of those on the podcast here, too. You know, you just love them. You just love them. It's great. It's totally fine.

Yeah, so that book is on Pope St. John, well, the writings of Pope St. John Paul II. And he made very popular this concept of the feminine genius that it was written in the late 80s, early 90s. He really reading the signs of the times, right? 80s and 90s, what was going on in our world, right? Women were being told to assert themselves like men, to basically take on masculine qualities in the workplace and even in the home, you know, demand that basically that were equal, but deny any differences. And

somehow that means we all become more like men, right? This is the 80s and 90s, right? We're putting shoulder pads on to wrap our shoulders. This is what has gotten us where we are today, the foundation of that kind of time. Absolutely, yeah. So then after Theology of the Body came out during sexual revolution, he spoke to that. And then he was like, OK, now we've got to address this issue here. And so he spoke beautifully about the gifts of women and what women uniquely bring to this world that he called vitally essential to both church and society. And so.

that is kind of, yeah, the heart of that book is his writings and my own experiences too of being a Catholic woman. Well, it's so important because, I mean, working in the church, we have this hierarchical church. Speaking of words that I'm going to try to screw up how to say at the end of a long day here, you know, hierarchical. And of course, like, the Pope is a man and the priests are men, but so many people who work in the church are women. And so many people who volunteer and lead in the church are women. And...

women's conference this year is bigger than our men's conference. Like, women tend to say yes a little quicker and easier sometimes than the men do. They're just more receptive and more responsive. And I don't think we've always done a great job of unpacking for the women in our church where their place is and what their role is. And again, it's like, our culture has told us oftentimes that men and women should be the same, you know, and that they're exactly the same. There's no differences. But that's just not...

how we were made, that's not what every kindergartner understands. We understand from a young age that there are unique and vital differences. And to try to make women just a better version of men or a different version of, you know, a very similar version of men, it doesn't do them the justice they're due. Yeah, no, it's not actually helpful, right? There's that complementarity piece that I think he really wanted to draw out for the sake of, you know, he says that when, and the quote, I can't like...

to say it off the top of my head, but it's this idea that there's the duality of the masculine and the feminine. And he says, it is in the masculine and the feminine that the human finds full realization. One gender doesn't make sense without the other. We actually fit together when you put them side by side. And so that complementary we can see visibly, but there's also invisible ways in which that complementary exists. And I think, yeah, when we try to deny that, it's not that men and women are, we are equal in our worth and our value and our dignity.

Both men were And there's some foundational things, what it means to be human. Exactly. We were both made in the image of God. Male and female, he created them, right? In the image of God, he created them. That's Genesis 1 .27. So that's super clear, right? And I think that people just, they get lost in that. If they think, well, any difference means that now we have to pit ourselves against each other. And we have to fight against each other. And I just was like, no, no, no. Women and men are equal. But the way that they're gifted, the way that they interact in this world, like,

there's nuances there that the world needs and that the church needs. What... Okay, so I'm going to put you on the spot then. What are some of those things that the world and the church needs from women? From women. So I think, I mean, this is like a big question, so I got to step it back a minute here. So like, what is the feminine genius, right? I think that's a good question to ask first, right? Like, what are we even talking about here?

And JB2 never defines it. I'm gonna discover my feminine genius tomorrow at the women's conference. Yes, yes, I mean he never defines himself. He never comes out and says here's what the feminine genius is. But if I had to sum it up, I would say that it is the unique person -oriented disposition of woman, right? So all humans have a disposition towards the other, right? But it's the unique disposition of woman.

And where do we see like what is unique about her and her disposition? Like it's written on our bodies, like it's revealed through our bodies, right? It's written on our souls and it's revealed through our bodies. So women, you already brought this up, is naturally receptive and she's naturally maternal, right? Those are two things that are actually like visible in her body that have a visible sign that shows this invisible reality. So you were talking about women are a little more receptive to the faith, right? Like I do think that there's just something.

about that with women, right? We receive very, I don't want to say very easily, we are more naturally receptive in the spiritual life, right? In our relationship with the Lord. That's why you have...

So many women, right, who are wonderful and we're trying to find them Catholic men and there's less of a pool on that side. Yeah, your heart breaks for those people. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so we have this natural receptivity and then the fruit of that receptivity then is maternity. So every woman in the garden, right, God created woman with a womb. He created her with a space to bring about and carry life.

And so whether a woman actualizes that and becomes a physical mother or whether she is what John Paul Sagan calls a spiritual mother, every woman has the capacity to be a mother. Those gifts have been given to every woman, whether or not she becomes a physical mother or not. She's called to live them. So this is like the unique person -oriented disposition of women. We have this ability to be able to receive others and to mother others. And so JP II sums it up in one way. He says,

You know, women have this tendency to see people with their hearts. Right? This beautiful ability to not see a situation and go, OK, well, you know, practically let's analyze this situation. But like, first she sees she's a situation with her heart. Right? Like, how's this going to affect the people? How's this going to affect, you know, those involved in this situation? So there's just like a different way of processing. Right? But we need that complementarity. We need both. We need the woman's heart that's focused on the person in this way. And we need the man's heart that's focused on a person in another way.

Yeah, I'm a better leader when I'm working with women. Just because I lead the certain way that I lead, I am a man and I lead that way. And when I have people in the office that I can bounce things off of and work with and collaborate, it's not, and it's not just like, sometimes we want to like dumb it down to the externals of like, oh, well, women are really good at hospitality. Okay, well, most women are better hospitality than I am for sure. There are guys who are good at hospitality too. But it's not just that like, oh, they're thoughtful and they're going to put together the gift basket that I...

didn't get you for coming to speak at the conference. I'm sorry. Like, because, you know, the lady I work with my office transferred out to another department and she would have made you a basket. Like, yes, there are those things, but it's even, it's so much deeper than that because it's actually just like their experience of the world and of the church and of the need of a very large population of people that we're trying to serve and reach and minister to is just fundamentally different than mine. And if I can...

Be in that relationship where we have the ability to go back and forth and understand and complement each other then It makes the ministry and the programs we write and the content we do like it makes it all so much better Yeah, it makes it so much more rich right. It's full like it. Yeah, exactly It fills it out like more fully human right you're getting the full picture when men and women are collaborating together And I mean even you know John Paul II obviously talked about a lot but Pope Francis in his pontificate multiple times you hear these great quotes by him where he's talking about like

Men could look at a problem and analyze it together and come up with a conclusion. It could be a good conclusion. But if they bring women into the conversation, it's going to be richer. It's going to be fuller. It's going to be more intuitive. And so I think there's that beauty in that. I think for a while, I had this idea that the way that like, complementarity of gender works is like, well, guys have this role and girls have this role. And that's his job and that's her job. And there can't be any overlap. But now I understand it more like, you come to that meeting and you lead like a man, right?

and I'm gonna come to that meeting and I'm gonna lead like a woman, right? Like I'm gonna do it in my feminine way, right? Like I'm not gonna, it's not that, oh well these are certain things that only men can do and only women can do. It's like, no, no, do it in the way that is natural for you. The way that, what's the right word here? I don't know, like in the design in which your heart like naturally gravitates toward, lead like that, not like.

trying to be like a man, right? Like the 80s and 90s, you know, it was like, hey women, like to leave, you The shoulder pads is such a great reference. All the blazers with shoulder pads. I've got a great tacky Christmas sweater I wear that has shoulder pads in it. You know, at some point it was a woman's sweater and I wear it very well though, I promise. I'm sure it looks great on you. I'm sure it is, yeah. Yeah, but like the 80s and 90s, you know, it was like this masculinization of women. It was like, well, the only way that you can work in the business world is if you become like a man. And so women were trying to take on -

a totally different approach to leadership. And I was like, no, no, no, come in and lead like a woman because you have a different way of approaching things. And we need that. We don't need you to just, we don't need more men. We have enough. Yeah, absolutely. So as far as, and I think too, like being a guy, like the guy shouldn't tune out this conversation about the gift of women in the church too. Like it'd be easy to say like, oh, the title of the episode is the feminine genius or whatever it is. I don't need to listen to it. No, well, one, like,

personally, I'm always trying to understand at least my own wife better, you know, and there's days where I do a better job than others at knowing her heart and understanding like how she was made and the gift she is to me in my own life. But again, this is as far as working in our parishes and in apostolates and ministries, like there are so many opportunities to lean into the gifts of women.

and draw them out. And sometimes I think we have to do a better job of that as men, of drawing out the gifts of those women. Because if the men are in the position of authority or as the pastor or whatever, then they have to know what it is. I had a woman tell me one time, she said, the priest told me that he doesn't trust anyone who cries. So if it cries, it lies. And I was like, well, yeah. I mean, that's...

What's shocking, I don't know how you can like, yeah, not good. He's like, you know, I just, they're trying to get something or it's manipulative or whatever. And okay, yes. Or it's an expression of feminine sensitivity. Yeah, exactly. Women tend to cry more than men. You know, like I cry a lot more now than I used to. I think age does that to you. I agree. For me, when we had our preemie, like my heart just softened in a way. And it was after post -Dzik, I just cry more now. It's like I get emotional, which is great. The Lord.

did something and made it was good. But there's exactly sensitivity that we have to understand in the world and the church. And if we don't actually take the time to understand the heart of a woman and the feminine genius, then that priest is actually fundamentally missing something important he needs to know to do his job well that he's closing himself off to because he sees it as weakness or manipulation. Yeah, yeah. And the interesting thing about sensitivity, right?

there is like that face value. The first thing you think is like crying, right? And I remember hearing that John Paul II talking about that feminine sensitivity. And I remember thinking like, well, then I'm not a very good woman because I don't cry very much. That was my first inclination when I heard that. But the tears are actually, they're not sensitivity itself, but they are like a result. Like they flow from sensitivity. An expression of it. An expression, there's the word I need, yes. An expression of it. But like sensitivity, according to John Paul II, is the ability to recognize and see the needs of others.

We're sensitive to that need. So you see this really easily, like, in a really great teacher. She can look around her classroom and be sensitive to, oh, that kid over there is not feeling a part of this class. He's getting picked on. He's being bullied, right? They notice those things, see people with their hearts, right? Picks up on that. And so I think if she's coming in and expressing something and, like, tears are flowing, like,

Well, like there's something behind that that's not manipulation. That's not just being overly emotional. And that's not what sensitivity is at its heart. Right. And so that's that's a pretty, yeah, bold statement to make about females and also missing the mark quite a bit for what this woman is trying to express, because there's something deeper that that probably is pretty profound if it's moving her to tears. Well, and yeah, I mean, we are we can't.

just be functionaries. And that goes for our clergy who are trying to do, you know, they do sacraments, they do all those things, but we can't be ministry robots. Like, the way we're created is incarnational.

We are made for relationship with God. And so, if we're going to evangelize, and we talk about this, I don't know, every time on this podcast, but it's incarnational. And so, to deny the relational aspect of how men and women relate to one another, there's not a formula you follow where you go teach this, and then you teach that, and then you teach this, and then everyone in your church is going to learn to love and follow Jesus. No, it's a mess. We're a mess. Yeah, you can't programatize it. Exactly. So, it's more...

It's more art than it is science as far how to evangelize. But if we don't understand, like one of the things that we talk a lot about in our evangelization paradigm is understanding the moment we're living in. So, we have to understand modern man and who modern man is and the people we're trying to evangelize, because you can't love what you don't know. So, that's why we have to learn about our faith and catechesis is such a good thing. You have to know about God, because then the more you know about God, the more you can freely love God for

who God is and say yes and respond to that. But if we don't love the world, we don't love the culture, we don't love the people of the world and the culture, then we're not going to evangelize them. And sometimes you see this, I think, on like extremes of the church, you see people who don't evangelize well because they want to actually prove their point and prove someone wrong. So they're trying to win an argument or say, my way of doing it is superior, so I'm not going to actually evangelize you, I'm just going to condemn you. That's right. But...

we actually learn to love the people who are in error and understand where they're coming from and what their sensitivities are, whatever it is, then we're going to be more effective in knowing how to reach them and why to reach them. So, to understand just the art of humanity and the art of living and understanding a woman's experience in the church and growing up in the church and perceptions about what your role is and isn't and what people telling you that is, I think that just makes you a better...

servant of the people of God and a better evangelist at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah. And I think women are so, we're all right, we're all relational. I think there's like an extra level of relational for women. And if you can understand that, right, like you can, you can know how to reach her heart a lot quicker. Yeah. It's going to open, it's going to open up a lot of conversations. And like you said, just like the teacher can draw it out of that student. Cause they see it. Like when you see it, you're able to.

to draw the fullness of the person out and not, you know, one of my favorite lines in evangelization is Sherri Waddell, of course, the never accept a label in place of a story. And it's really drawing out that fullness of the person, the fullness of their story and their experience, that then we can start to ask the right questions, kind of like Jesus did throughout His whole ministry of asking people questions and kind of drawing them out of them, out of themselves and fully into Himself too. Yeah. Yeah.

Because we all have our own journey, right? We each have our own story. And when you can understand somebody's story, you can know then how to minister their heart so much faster. As we kind of get towards the end of our time here, we always try to get a little bit practical too in terms of incorporating some of what we've talked about today into like day -to -day life, daily conversations in parishes, whether it's a parish office or just folks who are together on that journey trying to...

learn and grow. So is there anything about understanding the feminine genius? I mean, obviously a very practical thing would be to buy and read your book, you know, about that. That would be very practical. But as far as like, how do we unpack this idea in terms of making us more effective in the people we're trying to reach and serve in the church? So like for Paris teams, I think it's so important that they have a place of trust with each other.

and a place of respect and understanding of like, here's what I'm going to bring to the table. Like, here's where my gifts come from, right? And vice versa. Here's where your gifts come from. And I think when you have established that trust, then if a woman to give like just like a very like vanilla example, right? But if like a woman makes a suggestion that the man doesn't just shut it down, right? Like that he recognizes like, no, like you, you might be right in that. Like you, you've got a different perspective that you're coming from here.

And while that might not be my first inclination, I want to hear out your inclination. And then we need to work together to figure out how do we make this practically happen. And I think understanding the feminine genius and the complementary masculine genius, which is unfortunately Jean -Paul seconded and talk about or read about the masculine genius, but it does exist. This isn't something that's just. Oh, believe me, I know. I'm got it. I feel like a genius. Yeah, yeah. But there are, you know,

unique things that your body reveals and says about you, unique gifts that you provide to this world as a man. And so I think when you can understand each other better, it just makes conversations easier. It makes conflict easier. It makes evangelization easier because there's a level of understanding, even just like how to best reach a woman's heart and how to best reach a man's heart based upon generalities. These are, of course, generalities, not...

You can't make one tight little box that's like every woman blank, every man blank. Yeah, Always a danger. Yeah, but we can be wise about some of these generalities and use those when evangelizing. I think another great tool is, I mean, love doing like charism surveys and things like that. And you understand what people's gifts are, what they're blessed with, and how that expresses itself is always great. But the other thing I love to do is to do like a personal histories exercise. So you just like spend.

ask someone to tell you the long version of their life story. So we've done with our staff a few times, you say, give me the hour version of your life. And sometimes it goes longer than that too. We've done a whole day of like just people telling their story because you understand who they are, you understand their heart more. So it's not just like, okay, again, you're not just the role I have you assigned to in the parish office or the committee you serve on or the talk you give or whatever it is, but you understand.

why they are the way they are, and then how their own level of genius, masculine, feminine, whatever, expresses itself in terms of the work that they are doing. And then there's a level of trust that's built there too, where you can... I just don't think we can do a vengalization well in our parishes without that level of trust amongst each other, because it is... Otherwise it becomes functionary, it becomes checking the box of whatever program and trying to just do the right thing.

It was a leading room for the relational aspect of how the Holy Spirit moves in our lives and all that. Yeah, sometimes I think of our pair of staff. I hope this isn't too much of a reach, right? But for as much trust as you would need if you were in a military unit together doing physical combat, that takes a deep level of trust and understanding and knowledge of those who are in your unit. Like,

we're doing spiritual warfare over here. Yeah. No, that's not a stretch at all. Yeah, like we're doing something that has eternal consequences, you know? And so of course, the devil's going to try to like get on the defense and he's going to try to poke and prod. And so it's not surprising then that we're going to have issues sometimes in our teams, in our parishes. And so having that deep trust, that deep understanding, not just of individuals, you know, but understanding like, OK, like how.

how do we work as a team? Like is only gonna enhance your ability to be able to evangelize. Yeah, I love it. I think it's some great, great practical stuff for us to end with. So if you would, would you maybe just close us in a prayer on our way out of here? You bet. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen. Come Holy Spirit, teach us how to pray. Lord Jesus, we praise you and we thank you for the gift of today.

for this ability to sit down and chat about evangelization and the feminine genius and Lord the good work that you have done in my life where you've brought me to. I'm grateful, grateful for the life that you've given me. And I pray for each soul who's listening in to the podcast today. May they be edified, may they come to know themselves and come to know you more. And may they have the courage to be able to go out there and to share you with.

those in their communities who desperately need you, who are seeking hope, who are seeking truth, who are seeking peace that only you can offer, Lord. We ask for all of our parish ministers, those who are out there doing spiritual warfare, doing combat for you spiritually. Lord, I pray your special graces be poured upon them. In your name we pray, amen. Amen. In the name the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, amen. Amen. All right, go and make disciples.

Cool.