Breaking Free: From Cult to Christ with Peter Young (Ep 78)

Jason: Welcome and thank you for listening. My name is Jason and I'm your host. There's an urban legend that allegedly goes back to the 19th century science experiment. It tells us this, if you place a frog in a pot of boiling water, it'll quickly jump out. However, if you put a frog into cold water and gradually increase the temperature, the frog will stay there and boil to death.

And my research found that this to be more of a myth, but the metaphor is sound. When our living conditions deteriorate slowly over time, we adapt to those conditions instead of getting rid of them. And this will continue until there's no longer enough room to escape. Now, my next guest is Peter young, and he very much became the boiled frog.

And we'll get into that in a moment, but Peter is the author of two bestselling books, stop the tall man, save the tiger and the blue team. Peter also does public speaking engagements and is kind enough to join us today and share his wisdom and experience. You can get more information about his works at https://authorpeteryoung.com, and you can check out his novel, the blue team at https://blueteamnovel.com. All of these links and his social media can be found in the show notes, but I've kept you in suspense long enough. Let's meet our guest.

So welcome, Peter. I am beyond excited to have you here today.

Peter: Jason, thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.

Jason: Absolutely. You have a pretty amazing story, and we'll get into some of it.

But before we go off on our tangents, you shared with me your favorite Bible verse, which is Proverbs 3:5-6. It's, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him and he will make your path straight." How does this verse speak to you?

Peter: You know, I played college basketball a long, long time ago, and I can remember writing that verse on the back of like the heels of my sneakers, along with some other verses over the years. But what I love about it is, it speaks to the human condition of. Well, you know, I trust the Lord in all these areas, but this one or but that one.

And so it says, you know, trust the Lord with all your heart, not 80%, not 90%, not 75%, but with all your heart, because I find, as I've gone through life, that there are times where we have these little compartments of our life where we think, well, you know, That's off limits, God. And well, that's not how it works.

And so we need to trust the Lord with all of our heart and lean not on our own understanding. Well, that again, speaks to, you know the ego of man that we think we know it all, hold on. Oh, you should lean on his understanding, not your own. So it speaks to me in a number of ways.

Jason: So you're, you're telling me God knows more than me.

Peter: Yes. Right. Isn't that a hard thing to hear sometimes? But we need to hear it every day.

Jason: I love the idea of writing a verse on sneakers. Now I use whiteboard markers and I write stuff on my bathroom mirror and windows and stuff, but I've never thought about writing in my shoes. That's a good idea.

Peter: There's another verse in Habakkuk and I'm sure I was going to you know, grossly taking it out of context, but it talks about something along the lines of he protects me so that I did not turn my ankles or something like that. And so I also used to put that verse on my sneakers because, you know, basketball players are always spraining their ankles.

And again, I know that verse is not talking about spraining your ankles playing basketball, but I was a little liberal in my use of it.

Jason: Fair enough. Fair enough. Now, you were born and raised in Ridgewood, New Jersey, and by all accounts, you had a pretty normal upbringing, right?

Peter: Very much so. Youngest of five boys, my parents still together 90 and 88. They love the Lord. So I grew up in a Christian home. And had a wonderful upbringing. It wasn't perfect, but it was, it was great.

Jason: How did they survive five boys?

Peter: Oh my goodness. Tell me about it. You know, I have five kids myself and we have five boys, man. We ate a lot of food, a lot of, you know, basketballs and footballs and baseball gloves, you name it. And they bought it all and they took care of us.

Jason: That's good. You went on to play college basketball at George Washington University, and your book, The Blue Team, is kind of loosely based on your experience there, but you also, you know, Spend some time as a coach, as well as a sports broadcaster. I mean, you kind of done it all right.

Peter: Well, you know, I sell real estate now to pay the bills and it's the first job I've had really outside of the sports world. You know, I, the Reader's Digest version of my life, Jason, is I was going to be the next Larry Bird. I was going to be the next great basketball player. And that didn't happen. Then I got into coaching and I was going to be the next John Wooden or Mike Krzyzewski, that didn't happen.

And then I got into sports broadcasting and I was going to be the next Bob Costas. And I had a fun career as a, as a sports broadcaster. I loved it, but I was not the next Bob Costas. So I am no longer trying to be the next anybody else. I have finally learned, you know, in my forties that my identity needs to be in the Lord rather than what I do, who I am is I'm a Christian, I'm a son of God. What I do is. Coach or broadcaster, right? That's not my identity.

Jason: Yeah. And I'm hoping there's enough Gen Xers listening to this, that they recognize those names. I was

Peter: You know, that's why I said Mike Krzyzewski instead of John Wood. And I'm like, well, how many people know who John Wood is anymore? So that's why I, I, I throw in coach K.

Jason: Right on. So looking from the outside in, you lived a pretty normal life, but there, there was a long and dark season of your life kind of going on behind the scenes.

Peter: Yes. You know, and, and well, that would be the time that I spent in the tiny little religious cult that destroyed my marriage and broke up my family and was intensely painful and difficult. But juxtaposed with all of that pain and the craziness of this cult leader, whose name is Uncle Robert, was a marriage that I desperately tried to save because I truly, truly love this woman.

So it wasn't all bad.

Jason: Yeah. And I want to talk about both of your books because I've gone through most of one and I've started on the other. I was trying to read them simultaneously. Before we, we got on this call, but we'll start with Stop The Tall Man, Save The Tiger. And this is your memoir of that experience of being in kind of inducted into the small cult.

And I don't even know if inducted is the right term because that's where the, the boiling frog analogy comes from. And I really enjoyed it and it, it hits the ground running from the prologue and you mentioned. Three key lessons of Christian life and wondering if we could start there and you can walk us through those three truths you discovered the

Peter: Sure. Well, the first one is that a strong Christian marriage, really any marriage, I believe, but especially a strong Christian marriage. Needs Christ at the center. Christ is in between or together with the husband and the wife. And so there should be no one else, and I mean no one, not a parent, not a child, therapist, not a counselor, not a pastor, certainly not a guru or a cult leader, should ever get in between the husband and the wife.

All of those people, other than the guru, can help, but from the outside. They're outside of that and they're gonna support the marriage. They should never get in between to where you create a wedge of separation between the two. And then number two, second lesson is that, you know, the body of Christ is a very important analogy, important metaphor.

And, if you cut off the finger, finger dies, the body doesn't. We. Left church after church after church and eventually just listened to Uncle Robert. Uncle Robert knew best. So we became very isolated and we did not have fellowship with other believers. So there was no one in our life to say, hey, wait a minute What is this guy telling you?

So when we became isolated and cut off from the body of Christ that's when we became susceptible to a false teacher, which I believe that's what he is. And so fellowship and relationships are very important. And then third, we Cult leaders try and act as a gatekeeper to God. That's one of their ubiquitous features.

Salvation comes first in the Christian faith, and sanctification comes after that. We're saved, and then we grow and mature just like a child is born, and then the child learns to eat, crawl, walk, etc. You cannot switch the order. Anyone who tries to tell you to switch the order is acting as a gatekeeper to God because you can't earn your salvation.

The thief on the cross did not tithe, did not go to a Bible study, and was not baptized. He was saved, and it's a free gift, we are saved, and then we are sanctified. And after many years as a Christian, this Uncle Robert character, basically trying to, make me go all through the process again, because he didn't feel like I had been sanctified. That's not what the Bible teaches.

Jason: Yeah, the penitent thief is one of my favorite stories. But your book mentions this uncle Robert, you mentioned a couple of times and I, I want everyone to read your book. I really do. What do we need to know about him before we go in into page one?

Peter: Sure. Well, Uncle Robert would check all of the boxes of a kind of a prototypical small cult leader, but he was not uncle, he was not blood related to anybody. He met my former in laws before my former wife, Paige was even born. They met at a tiny seminary in California. And he kind of started this parasitic relationship with my former in laws over 50 years ago.

And so really dominated this one family and was born and raised in Syria. He's now probably about 80 years old. But eventually, you know, uncle Robert through his narcissistic personality, his strength of intellect dominated this family then which I married into the family, then eventually dominated me and my family.

Jason: And your book is very interesting I was actually reading it before we got to this because I want to get a little bit further, a little bit further. I want to see what, because it escalates slowly. And it really drives home that, that slow boil, if you will. But it starts out by walking you through how you met page and how you got married and you were in love and you, and I found this part of chapter four to be uniquely interesting where you talk about Jack who was pages father, I believe.

And he felt absolutely judged and repressed. And even, I think you mentioned suicidal by the mere presence of this uncle Robert at, at your wedding. And this uncle Robert made Jack see the ugliness and the worst of himself. And that's just so un Christlike, you know, we should seek to bring the best of those around us.

And you mentioned that came up years later. How did you process that , when that confession came out?

Peter: Boy, that's a good question. Cause it did come out years later. I was stunned by it. There was a lot of things that came out of his mouth that were stunning to me over the years. And when he told me that about the wedding day, I was still very much on the fence with him. You know, the water. If I was the frog in the pot, the water was getting warm, but certainly wasn't boiling yet.

So for me, it was just another one of these really odd, really bizarre statements that came out of his mouth. And I remember being frustrated because it always seemed to go back to Uncle Robert. Everything came back to him. All roads pointed to him. Anything dramatic or of significance that happened in Paige's life, her brother's life, her parents life, always would bring honor and praise and glory to Uncle Robert. To the Lord or anybody else. So I remember the wedding day. I thought, well, what a great day. What a beautiful day. I would never would have known that that's what Jack was thinking. But I remember looking back, you know, Jack has known Robert and by the way, he calls him dad because he feels like Robert saved him when he was in the sixties.

I think, you know, he's known Robert for like, I don't know, 40 years at this point. And you know, we have victory in Christ, right? And like we grow, we mature. Jack never does because Robert will never let him. Robert will never let Jack mature and grow and become a strong, confident in the Lord Christian.

Because then He will no longer be as easily manipulated by Uncle Robert. So Jack, in many ways, is a tragic figure. He is, will always be considered, probably by himself and Uncle Robert, as a, as a newborn in Christ, a new Christian. Even though Robert supposedly saved him 25 years ago. Robert will never let him grow beyond that point.

And that was kind of driven home by the fact that, he looks back on this wonderful moment. His daughter gets married. It's his first daughter to get married. What a beautiful day, great ceremony. And he's thinking about suicide. And then you think, oh, well, did he improve? Did he get better?

No, because many years later, we were having a discussion with another person. We were talking about parenting and this other person said, yeah, you know, just because you have kids doesn't mean you're a parent, even cockroaches can, have offspring and Jack, you know, eyes kind of missed it over. And I guarantee you in that moment, he felt like he was a cockroach. Why? Because Uncle Robert made sure that's the way he always felt about himself.

Jason: That is so sad. You did mention earlier in the book, that uncle Robert was raised in Syria by Christian parents, but there seems to be kind of Islamic undertone to his behaviors. In fact, you mentioned he had an, an Arabic Bible a little later on, when did you make that connection? And how, how uneasy were you with that

Peter: Well, I would say the first time I really kind of connected the dots, the first time, with him would have been about a year after 9/11. So I'm old enough to remember 9/11, a very impactful moment in my life. I grew up in northern New Jersey, so I had high school classmates in the Twin Towers. I had a high school classmate widowed on 9/11, and so when that happened, that was, that really hit home.

Okay, but a year later, then we would have these conferences in Northern Idaho, because Robert lived in California. We lived in Idaho and Montana. We would meet at my in law's home. We'd have a conference. Basically, Uncle Robert would talk for days. And at this conference, about a year after 9/11, he started talking about how FDR was a Jew, and he said it with such vitriol, President Truman was a Jew, and 80,000 people died on 9/11, and of course it was all the fault of the Jews, and that was my first introduction to his anti Semitism, and how much he hated the Jews. And of course, this was a kind of a bedrock principle of his theology, which I believe probably some of it was inherited from his upbringing in a very Muslim dominated portion of the world, which would also be an area of the world where there's a lot of hatred for Jews.

And he kind of brought those passions with him to America. But his theology would go all the way back to Jacob and Esau. And he spent a lot of time on this with us, just driving home this point to where Esau was the father of Edom and all of modern Jewry. And Jacob would be the father of the twelve tribes of Israel and modern Christianity.

And all of recorded history is one giant struggle between those two people, because Jacob stole the birthright and Esau has been trying to get it back ever since through psychology usury, you know playing crafts war suppressions. You name it all of it Supposedly according to uncle Robert has a Jewish conspiracy behind it and its aim is to take back the birthright from the descendants of Jacob Which would be you and I now after listening that you will probably say to yourself. Wow, that's kind of crazy and and

Jason: a little bit?

Peter: I kind of think it is, but here's another important point is that cult leaders don't just start spouting lies to you. They'll take a germ of truth. Right, Esau is the father of Edom and Jacob did steal the birthright and then he will twist it and spin it so that years later It's like how did we get here?

Right? Like he would take a bit of truth and then give it his own little perverse Interpretation. and not just on this issue, but on everything to where you're like, okay, that makes sense And then ten years later, you're like, how did we get here?

Jason: That's crazy. I mean, it's, it is a really good book. It draws you into the experience. And I, I mean, I feel bad for what you went through the whole process and I'm, I'm still going through it. I think I'm on like chapter 10 now. And every chapter it just gets deeper and deeper. And I'm like this poor man had to go through all of this.

Peter: You so you're on chapter 10? Yeah, you're you're I'm trying to think how far in you are. It is going to get Intense by, multiples, it gets a lot more intense as in the last year or two of, of when I was around him. It was again, people tell me they can't put it down or they have to, cause it is so intense. The hatred, that was directed towards me was awful.

Jason: That's terrible. That's terrible. Yeah. I think Naomi had just been born was where I left off. So that was interesting.

Peter: So Naomi would be my third child. Again, we had five. You know, Robert over the years, eventually, destroyed my marriage, broke up our family. But there were, you know, a lot of really kind of important milestones and moments along the journey. If you don't mind, Jason, let me go back to another one.

When my second child was born and I changed the name of the book, I mean, I called him David in the book. I changed all the names of the first names of the kids. He was born a preemie at 32 weeks. My wife, Paige, I changed her name as well. She went into the hospital in bedrest at 26 weeks. She was leaking amniotic fluid.

The doctors had no idea why, but Paige, of course, knew why. And she felt like she had been disrespectful to uncle Robert because Paige's sister had kind of called him out and said, Hey, this uncle Robert guy, he's kind of weird. He's not who you say he is. And Paige initially believed her sister and then felt convicted by the Lord and was adamant. Absolutely adamant and sure that the Lord is punishing her. And by punishing her, endangering the life of my child, because she did not protect the good name of Uncle Robert. So she really felt that she was in the hospital and our son nearly died because she had not come to the defense of Uncle Robert quick enough, which is just, it's horrible.

Jason: Yeah, that's mind blowing. And it kind of gets us an insight into, maybe the mind of, of the uncle Roberts of the world, because Jesus was chastised, Jesus was, was ridiculed. And nobody was punished for it. He, he defended himself and eventually died for it, but there was no retribution against somebody. He, he just went out there and did miracles and healed people until, until the end.

Peter: And another way to look at it, what I really kind of tried to get drilled down in the book is that there's two things, you know, the, the gatekeeper to God aspect, all of all this, you know, Paige had professed her faith in the Lord. She'd been baptized publicly, hopped on Uncle Robert, drove him nuts, but he eventually convinced her that she was not safe.

So she had to go through the process of being saved by him. And so then her testimony, after this child was born and by the way, he's, he's healthy and he's a young adult now he's a strapping young man. It's fine. But her testimony after that incident with the hospital and the birth of this child, you know, really focused on.

Uncle Robert versus Christ, you know, if she mentions Uncle Robert in her written testimony three to four times more than she would mention our Lord and Savior, which of course is, is wrong and that, that is kind of a perverse way of, of looking at your, faith. You know, we. We don't need anyone to save us other than the Lord.

No one else can save us. We don't need a gatekeeper. Jesus is the gate, right? He says that in the Gospels. I'm the gate. I'm the only way to heaven. We don't need another gate. And so Robert and all cult leaders, and perhaps of other faiths, will try and set themselves up as the gate. And in Uncle Robert's case, what he would do is he'd be kind of the first gate, and then you'd go through Christ. But he still set himself up as that extra gate.

Jason: That's interesting. It's a really good book. Like I said recommend everyone read it if nothing else for, morbid curiosity, if you want to go that route, but I did have a question. And, if you don't mind I'd like to ask If you have received any blowback from the Klassens and or anyone else after the book came out,

Peter: No, I know they're aware of it. Unfortunately, I have very little contact with my former wife. And again, out of the five children you know, the oldest three, my relationship with them is very strained, so I don't talk to them much. But parenting is a marathon, not a sprint. So, and you were kind of still fighting in the courts, the courts, when she filed for divorce, you know, recognized two things, number one, they recognize the cult and cults you know, from a scientific standpoint are emotionally and mentally and spiritually abusive to children and it was, there was no physical or sexual violence.

And then they also recognize that Paige was engaging in what our family counselor, my lawyer, and the guardian ad litem had said it was the worst case of parental alienation they'd ever seen. Parental alienation is where one parent bad mouths the other parent to the kids. And so Paige was calling me the devil, Satan, sorcerer, an alien, a liar, a coward, a tyrant, a fraud, you name it.

And, you know, the reason she had to call me all those things is because eventually the Lord opened my eyes and ears to the fact that Robert was a fraud and a cult leader and he was not who he says he was and we had been brainwashed. And Paige could not stand for that, you know, Robert, she may not admit that he is her savior, but she protects him like he is. And so because of that, the court sent the youngest kids back to me. And so they're still with me.

Jason: well, that's good. I'll definitely have, have you in my prayers for, for better outcome as, as time goes on. We'll go ahead and shift gears here. It's an intense topic and I could talk to you all day, all day about it. Cause I like, it's just fascinating. It's fascinating to, to experience it through your book.

And, and again, I can't third time. Go buy the book and read it. It's worth it. But I did start thumbing through the blue team. I think chapter three on that one. So I don't have as much to talk about. I did find it interesting that the blue team were, were considered the substitutes. Whereas you have the white team, which are the starters and that, I don't know if that's a theme throughout the book. Maybe you can answer that.

Peter: It is. So The Blue Team is a novel about faith and basketball. And the story within the story is that an athlete or a basketball player's greatest adversary is not the guy trying to block your shot. The teammate won't pass you the ball or the coach who won't start you. It's your own mind. And so when the Lord saves us, he saves us from ourself, right?

Like the old man that Paul talks about, our ego. And so that doesn't mean that you're going to be the next Larry Bird. Like I wanted to be. But if you take the game winning shot and miss it, life's not going to end. Right? Cause your identity is in something greater than yourself. So instead of putting your identity in basketball, I will be the next bird.

Your identity is in the Lord. I am a son of God. I am a child of God loves to play basketball and wants to be really good at it. But that's a massive difference, right? My identity is in the Lord as a Christian, and he has blessed me with height and a love for this game, and I'm going to do my best to glorify him.

So that's the message of The Blue Team, the story within the story. And then I played basketball for a guy named John Custer. I played at George Washington University. And Custer played basketball for Dean Smith. So again, if you're really young, you're not going to remember this, but just know that Dean Smith coached Michael Jordan in college.

Okay. Dean Smith's one of the greatest coaches of all time goes to North Carolina. And in their practices, it was always the blue team versus the white team. And what that means is you've got these reversible jerseys, right? And the white team would be the white side out with the blue lettering. And then if you turned it inside out, it was blue side out with white lettering. I don't know if anybody could see behind me, but that there's the Jersey. Okay. And,

Jason: Yeah, it's going to be audio only, but it

Peter: I've got the jersey behind me on my wall. And so my coach wanted to do everything like Dean Smith did and a college art coach, our colors were blue and white as well.

And again, the idea is, is playing on the same theme that the guys on the blue team were like, Oh, we're the scrubs. We're, you know, we're not the starters. We're not going to play. We're the downtrodden woe is me. And that could kind of become your identity. And that's true for any sport. Which of course is a trap that you don't want to fall into.

Jason: Yeah, absolutely. And just in case anyone's curious, if you go to the, I think Amazon, it's on there. And the blue jersey with the white lettering is the book cover. So you can kind of see what he was pointing to. I did enjoy the James 1:19 reference in chapter three, the slow to speak and quick to listen.

That's actually one of my favorite. It's the first verse I memorized after, after being baptized. It's still written on little magnetic whiteboard things in my fridge. So that was enjoyable. I wish I had more prepared for this, but if there's anything you want to tell us about the book, no spoilers because I am reading it.

Peter: I will, I will not, I'll tell you this. I'm, I'm working on a sequel. The sequel to The Blue Team will come out later this year, but yeah, please keep reading it because the ending will knock your socks off. There are definitely, there's two things that happen near the end of where it's like, whoa. And it's, it's, it's a wonderful story.

There's a lot of Oh, kind of metaphor or symbolism in the story. And you'll learn a lot about basketball as well. I'll point out this too, Jason. What is interesting is that in some regard, there was some of the story that again, this uncle Robert guy, early on would have been helpful in my thinking.

Again, he took everything way too far and then it became, a perverse topic or a perverse idea of what, used to be a good idea. And when I published the book the blue team would have been about about a year before Paige left me, left the marriage. And then so then they started bad mouthing me.

And at the time I was, I was brainwashed. So but then uncle Robert said to, you know, everybody who would listen to him, because our cult was very small, that the only reason I wrote the blue team was to try and fool them, fool my wife, fool him, fool my in laws into thinking that I was a Christian. So he thought, you know, that was the only reason the book came out.

And of course they were convinced that I was not a Christian. I was a fraud because many years into our marriage, I So about 15, 16 years in, I was kind of beaten down, worn out, maybe the, the boiling water had burned off the skin or whatever, but you know, I, I finally allowed him to convince me that I was not a Christian and really in the back of my mind, what it was, I was just trying to finally find a way to rekindle my wife's love for me because I kind of, I knew that she doubted my faith.

And that was: 2015

They would still consider me a fraud and a demon and all of that to this day. Because I don't follow their faith, which is of course is the faith of uncle Robert. So they're just going to show you how far his reach went. You know, he really reached into every aspect of our lives and had to have that control.

And if I can, kind of keep going here, Jason, that there's a couple more lessons with Stop The Tall Man, Save The Tiger that I think are important, which is why I love coming on podcasts, why I speak publicly. And also while I wrote the book, in addition to those three Christian principles. There's some things you really need to know about cults.

And during many of these years that I was in this tiny little religious cult, I was a sports broadcaster. I was on ESPN. I was on Fox, A&E, TNN, CBS. I mean, I was all over and no one had any idea what was going on in my private life.

Jason: That's astounding.

Peter: Yeah, they can hide very easily. And that's kind of the point I wanted to make is that, we didn't shave our heads, we didn't live in a commune, we didn't go around banging a drum or trying to sell popsicles or ties on the street corner to raise money, right. Or sell flowers. We were very quiet about it. We hid uncle Robert. And so in addition to be able to hide very easily. Cults control their members through secrecy, paranoia, and isolation. So of course, Uncle Robert knew about the threat of the Jews, right? So we had to shred our trash, and we had to be careful what we said on the phone.

Because we had to protect him, because his life was in danger. Thus, our lives were in danger. So of course, now we're special. So we circle the wagons, we project him, we don't tell anybody, but what did that do? Well, then it isolated us from the rest of the body of Christ. So we are very vulnerable and susceptible to that false teacher.

So you know, listen, if you know somebody that is narcissistic and you know, they make all the rules, but none of them apply to them, et cetera, et cetera, doesn't mean that person is a cult leader. But it's a red flag. And another red flag is, you know, Jason, let's say your brother, your old buddy, someone stops showing up to bowling, Bible study, book club, whatever it is.

They don't call, they don't email, they don't text. That's a red flag. Reach out to that person. Because as I say in my book, you never know you are brainwashed. You never know you are in a cult. You only know you were. So that person who is getting sucked into the cult, has no idea. No one knowingly joins a call. You have to be the one to engage and have the difficult conversation and reach out to your friends and loved ones.

Jason: I imagine it's, it's going to probably cost a friendship, maybe it'll plant a seed, but loving on somebody is telling them what they don't want to hear when they need to hear it.

Peter: Right.

Jason: And whatever the consequences are, the consequences and that's, that's admirable.

Peter: I was only brainwashed for about two and a half, three years, really. And it took me a full year to recover. And again, people say, well, how'd you do it? Well, it wasn't me. The Lord opened my eyes and ears to the truth. And he did it through my faith in him, which I never lost. Even when Robert was trying to tell me I was, you know, incapable of receiving salvation. What a horrible thing to say and my friends and family and they supported me and loved me. But again, you know, I was not brainwashed very long and it took a long time to recover.

Jason: And I imagine if you are in that situation, trying to get out of it, it's not going to be easy. It's going to be painful, but it'll definitely be worth it.

Peter: And so that is kind of the, those themes are incorporated into the sequel of The Blue Team. Cause it continues with the two main characters, Thomas and Janae from the blue team. So you can kind of tell that their relationship is going to blossom and the blue team, and then it'll continue on into the sequel.

And it's very difficult if someone is already following the cult leader because cults come in all different shapes and sizes, but they have two things in common. They have a leader and they're all about undo mind control, coercive, manipulative mind control. So again, remember you see it, but that person doesn't.

And it's hard. And so you really have to kind of separate that person so that they will listen to you and you, and you remove those other voices from them, because you could say everything that you need to Jason, you could have said it to me 10 years ago, right? Or everything you need to, to someone else's in a cult.

The moment they go back into that environment with the cult leader or the other people who are followers, they know all the right things to say. And within 15 minutes, it's all been undone, all the progress. So it is, it is very hard. And of course, it's, it's only through the grace and love from the Lord that you're capable of being rescued.

Jason: Yeah. That's terrifying.

Peter: It is a journey that you do not want to go through.

Jason: That's fair.

Peter: Yeah, you know, people think, well, how did you write this book? Well, again, it's horrible. You really should read it. It was horrible. But it's done, right? So why not use all that pain as a warning for others? And being able to write it all out was very therapeutic, very cathartic.

I wrote most of it during COVID. You know, when people were at home watching, you know, Netflix or TV, I was writing four or five hours a day. And it was finally at that point that it really, all the puzzle pieces that fit together, the story about the title, by the way, if you're thinking, what in the world?

Stop the tall man, save the tiger. I mean, I still get chills. I've got goosebumps right now. Whenever I talk about the title, it is an unbelievable, fascinating story that you will not believe. And it's amazing. And it's true. And it is, it's only, only the Lord could arrange things this way. It's fascinating.

Jason: Yeah, I can't wait to finish it. I will be probably reading after this after this interview.

But anyways, I think this is a good place to close up. I am so honored to have you on the podcast. Do you have any final words for the listeners? Any final thoughts?

Peter: No, just that Jason, I appreciate it is, it has been an honor. I would encourage all of you to again, just stay in fellowship, stay in communication with those you love. And I would love you to all to go to my website or Amazon and pick up my books because I realized your time is precious. And I think the time that I'm asking you to read my books will be well worth your time.

Jason: I agree. Be sure to check out the show notes for links about his books. "Stop The Tall Man, Save The Tiger" and "The Blue Team." And hopefully later this year we'll get the sequel to The Blue Team. So I'm looking forward to that. You'll also find his social media links in there as well. Both books are amazing, strongly encourage you read them.

I'm not even done with them, but I, I'm already hooked. I'm going to, I'm going to finish both of them. So also remember to like, and subscribe this podcast. So you don't miss out on new and exciting episodes. Look for my links, my website, my social media. in the notes as well. Lots of goodies there.

Until next time, be sure to read your Bibles. Remember to love each other and may the Lord bless you and keep you. God bless everyone and God bless you, Peter.

Peter: Thank you, Jason.

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