RANGEr Aaron Hedge talks with Hayden Tank, host of the Bible Lore Podcast, about Zeal, a recently planted church in downtown Spokane that has caused some controversy for revoking the lease of a homeless outreach ministry, and for its anti-LGBT doctrinal positions. Then, Hayden talks about his own journey out of Evangelicalism and why he still loves the Bible.

Read Aaron's reporting on Zeal here:

https://www.rangemedia.co/prophecy-spiritual-warfare-and-controversy/

And check out The Bible Lore Podcast here:

https://patreon.com/biblelorepodcast

this is Free Range, a co-production

of KIRS and Range Media.

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This is Aaron H.

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here.

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The rest of the established

Radio Range crew is out working

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on other projects right now.

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But it gave us this wonderful

opportunity to invite a person who's

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like Recently come into the orbit

of The Range family to talk about

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some some, some happenings in the

Christian nationalist world in Spokane.

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And then and then we're hoping to

dive into some more personal story

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making just types of narratives.

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But I'd like to welcome

Hayden Tank to the show.

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Hi.

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Thanks for being here, Hayden.

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Great.

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Thanks for having me.

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Really thrilled.

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We all love public radio.

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I've never been on public

radio, so I'm excited.

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Long time listener, first time caller.

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I've heard your vo- your voice a lot

because you are you run a podcast

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called the Bible Lore Podcast.

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Yeah, that's right.

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So it's if any…

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The Bible Lore Podcast is something

I started a couple of years ago.

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It is a chronological history of what

scholars call the ancient Near East, the

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ancient Middle East re- realistically.

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And it traces the origins, the

background, and the cultural context

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of the Bible through, I try to make it

fun, but it's also an academic lens.

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I bring a lot of scholars on the show

to make sure that I actually know what

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I'm talking about and, and it's not just

me, a guy with no degree blathering on.

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We have a lot of fun and yeah I've

been thrilled to see people enjoying

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it, I feel like we're in we're in

kind of a layered context here.

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You bring actual scholars in who

do academic work on this stuff.

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And you do incredibly deep dives even

though you're not, I don't think you're

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technically an academic, but your

podcast is extremely well-researched.

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It goes- Appreciate that … it goes deep.

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It's fun.

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Yeah … and Luke our our founder,

Luke Baumgarten, introduced me to

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your show probably a year and a

half ago is when you were still- Oh,

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cool … you were in Austria, right?

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Yeah.

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So I just moved back from Austria about

a year ago, back to here to Spokane.

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My wife and I had lived

there for six years.

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I lost my job, and that's when I was,

like, trying to find a job and was like,

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"Maybe I'll make a podcast," and, … and

here we are, and it's taken off.

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You were recently on the show Chapo

Trap House, which is a big nationally

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it's a big national podcast with- Yeah

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Like a really solid following.

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A few they're, like, like acerbi- acerbic

comedian leftists who, Yeah … are

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really interested in, both in current

events and also as well how- long

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well-established threads in human society

inform the current moment, including

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the Old Testament of the Bible, which

is what y'all talked about on the show.

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Th- they're big history dorks.

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You can just say it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But which is really fun

'cause, that, me too.

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Yeah … but yeah, it was a lot of

fun to, it's been a lot of fun kinda

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getting the show out there and going

on other people's shows to talk about

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the Bible and finding ways to discuss.

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Be- because so much of it is relevant

in ways that we hadn't considered.

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The Bible sort of sits

underneath a lot of our culture.

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It's shaped, it's referenced

in literature all the time.

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Most of the great American

literature references the Bible,

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usually the King James version.

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So understanding kind of what's

going on behind the text, I think

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is so fascinating to me, and you

can always find something new where

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you're like I never considered that."

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Like just before we started recording,

we were talking about how in the Book

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of Esther, many scholars believe that

the two principal characters Esther

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and Mordecai, that their names are a

winking reference by the author to the

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Mesopotamian gods Ishtar and Marduk.

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A part of this satirical nature of

this, this short story about a holiday.

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And finding those kind of

threads always fascinates me.

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I love that.

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I love, finding historical connections

and what people were referencing,

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whether intentionally or not.

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It's really great, you are also,

I mentioned you're, you've newly

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become adjacent to the Range family.

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You're the co-founder of a

new company called Strike.

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That's right.

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Is it Strike Communications?

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I can't remember.

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I don't know the, what

we've settled on right now.

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It's brand new.

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We're still … We don't even have

our business bank account set up.

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We just got the LLC.

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We just incorporated.

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But yeah Range had posted for a

marketing position and couldn't

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decide among three of our candidates.

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Luke got us together, and we just

decided "Hey, maybe we can pitch these

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guys on letting us spin up an agency

and putting their confidence in us."

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And, we've, all, all three of us

myself Morgan, and Kay, my, my two

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fellow co-founders have been fans

of Range for a year for years.

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I think a mutual friend of mine

and Luke's turned me onto Range

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literally when it started.

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It, this was right when I moved to

Austria, and I was just like- … "This

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is exactly what Spokane needs more of,"

because we have, public radio here.

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We have The Inlander and there…

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But a cooperative journalistic outlet

to me sounded incredible, and it's

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been so cool seeing it, grow to be

successful, and now I get to play a

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small part in my own way and you and Kay

and Morgan are not only now coworkers,

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you are former job competitors.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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It's really interesting that you

all came together and were just

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like, "Let's all work together."

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Yeah.

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And Luke said, "Sure."

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We just got on so well, so

yeah really looking forward.

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We're already hitting the ground

running, so you'll see our faces

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around the Range family in the future.

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So that, that's who Hayden is.

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So glad you're here.

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We wanted to talk about a story that's we

wanted to bring up a story that I wrote,

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I think it was last week, but time is

a flat circle, so I'm not totally sure.

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But there is and some of the

other publications have reported

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on this, this new church.

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But this is a church that has a lot of

the same elements of Christianity that

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both Hayden and I grew up in and left.

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It's it's called Zeal Church, and

they they bought the building that

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the old New Community Church used

to be housed in on Third Avenue.

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It's like Third Avenue and Howard.

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So right downtown.

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And it's this beau- this big, beautiful

like Gothic building that has like spires

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and but it's in a rough area of town.

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Yeah.

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And a, a lot, there, there were some

like homeless ministries in, housed

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in that building, and New Community

Church was a queer affir- affirming

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church of like a pretty, like a

fairly just an accepting church- Yeah

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Downtown for folks who live down there.

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And they had an outreach ministry.

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Is that like…

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I guess we can get into the story.

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So- Yeah … it sounded like they had

a well-enjoyed outreach program for

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homelessness, like feeding people.

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I think it was called Shalom Ministries.

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That's right.

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Is that right?

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Yeah.

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And so when did Zeal come into

town and buy the property?

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So the, the pastor, Ray Valdez, and

and his co-pastor, his wife, were, they

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had been in town for a little while.

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Ray is originally from the

Tri-City, the Tri-Cities area,

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and so he's from Washington.

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But he, there's not a lot of public

information out there about Ray.

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And I talked to him for a while.

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Some of the stuff that we talked

about I, I can't repeat here

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'cause it was off the record.

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But we can say that he,

he grew up in Washington.

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He, Do you know which of the Tri-Cities?

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Just for someone who's from the

Tri-Cities, I wanna know, if

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I've got a rival here from…

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No.

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I'm fairly s- I'm fairly certain

it's Walla, but we can't- Well,

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that's not one of the Tri-Cities.

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I, yeah.

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That's an hour away.

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Oh, I don't know what Tri-City…

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what are Tri-Cities?

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So Tri-Cities is an

area southwest of here.

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It's Richland, Kennewick, and

Pasco, plus, you know- … there's

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a bunch of tiny little towns

outside of it, so West Richland.

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You get Finley.

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I grew up in Benton City, which

is 20 minutes outside of town.

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So they're, you know- Ah … it's

grown into, it's situated on the

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Ya- the confluence of the Yakima,

the Snake, and the Columbia Rivers.

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So it's this, this nice area.

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Nice, it's the desert down there.

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But it was i- originally there,

there'd been settlements there

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for a while, but it really blew up

because of the Hanford nuclear site.

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So that's Yeah.

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So anyway, there you go.

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Yeah.

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That's Tri-Cities.

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I conflate every town that's west of here-

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with the Tri-Cities.

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Thank you.

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That's, yeah, that's- Of course … I

need to go spend some time out there.

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But he so Ray, he, I don't know exactly

what it was that brought him to Texas,

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but he went to Texas as a younger person.

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He's 36 years old now, and he's pastoring

this, this Zeal church downtown.

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But he spent some time

with a church in Texas.

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It's this big Texas megachurch

called Mercy Culture.

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And I think, he really I think he,

he seems to have thrived a good bit

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under the leadership of the apostle

there, a, a man named Landon Schott.

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That's S-C-H-O-T-T.

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And Landon is he calls himself an apostle,

which kind of locates Mercy Culture.

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And I don't know if they would, I don't

know if Landon would I haven't spoken

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to Landon, but I don't know if he would

embrace this label, but it's it's part

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of I, I think there's a good case to

be made that it's part of a, a movement

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called the New Apostolic Reformation,

which I think you're familiar with.

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Yeah, but just for the listeners,

can you describe- … what are the

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common features of New NAR, New

Apostolic Reformation churches?

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Yeah, so the New Apostolic Reformation is

this it's a, it's not a, an organization

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or like it's not incorporated in any way.

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It's just, it's a little bit

like, like it's a, it's not a,

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it doesn't really have a leader.

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I guess it an analog on the

left to the New Apostolic

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Reformation is maybe like Antifa.

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There's not really, there's just

little- Sure, sure … like cells

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that start up here and there.

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Yeah.

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And just like mentorship and

stuff in the community, but it's

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not, there's no official like

hierarchy or anything like that.

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Ve- very different from

franchise churches, I think.

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Sure, sure … but it's

basically- It's not Bethel or

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Hillsong or something like that.

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It's more of- Yeah … a loose coalition.

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Now I think they've had, m- there

are obviously conferences that a

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lot of these people, … congregate

at and, circles that they often

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run in together, stuff like that.

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So I think that's, that, that makes sense.

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Yeah.

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It's like business affiliations in

that way, like- Yeah … they're

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the chambers of commerce and things

like that, and the kind of different

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factions that you get within those

sort of, quote-unquote, organizations.

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It's a smart setup 'cause, if

something goes wrong, which often

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happens in these churches they're

pretty closed off cultures.

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There's not a lot of accountability

from outside forces, the government,

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police, or anything like that.

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Lots of internal mediation for

conflict and which, you know, and I

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think in a lot of highly restricted

religious cultures, there's a lot

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of sexual abuse and stuff like that.

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And you can't pin a- any of that on any

one specific church unless you, you find

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a specific scandal, and if that happens,

the person can either be absorbed into

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the larger organism or just cut off.

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It doesn't really hurt it.

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It's the same thing w- I was part of

Youth With A Mission, which we can

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talk about- later, but it's the sa-

they do a franchise model more like

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and it has some of the same benefits.

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In case anything goes wrong, the,

central institution is shielded from

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that or you can, cut people off.

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There, it makes it a lot…

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If you have that looseness to

it, it creates a lot more space

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for covering your butt yeah.

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So yeah.

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So why are we- So- … talking

about Zeal today?

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I wanna- What, what happened?

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I wanna point out…

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So I wanna point out, one of the,

one of the really interesting things,

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and this stems from a conversation

that you and I had when, like after

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Strike had officially started up.

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But, Th- there's three aspects

of the New Apostolic Reformation

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that I wanna highlight.

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One of them is this very

specific church structure.

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There's five positions in the church

that are outlined in the New Testament

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Book of Ephesians, chapter 4:11.

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Chapter four, verse 11.

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And it's basic- it basically says that

the structure of the church should

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be guided by five main positions.

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At the top, there's an

apostle and a prophet.

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And then underneath them are

pastors, teachers, and evangelists.

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And the really important ones

are the ones that are at the

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top, the prophet and the apostle.

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And the reason why they're important

is because the prophet basically, the

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way I understand it, is the prophet

receives the word of God and interprets…

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Or and then passes it on to the

apostle, and the apostle h- their role

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and it can be a man or a woman it…

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The New Apostolic Reformation is

interesting in Christian nationalism

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'cause it's an outlier in terms

of they want women in positions

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of power and stuff like that.

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Sure.

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But and then the apostle takes

that word that the prophet has

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received from God and interprets it

and carries out the orders, right?

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And they also plant churches,

which is like the, the way

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that Zeal Church came about.

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The other two elements are, They're the,

the first one is they like to do something

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that they call spiritual warfare.

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So they worship the Lord in

really like ostentatious ways.

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There's lots of dancing.

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There's lots of very colorful clothing.

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A lot of people swing flags

around, and it's a, it's pretty

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beautiful actually visually.

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If if you're really lucky, you get

someone waving the sword around.

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That's always a fun one.

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Oh, I've never seen that.

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Oh, you…

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Buddy, you gotta visit more churches.

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You gotta…

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I ne- I know th- there are

some NAR pastors in town who

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have sabers on their wall.

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Oh, yeah.

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You'll- But- If you ever see one of those

things coming down- Oh, my gosh … and

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a guy in a tucked in T-shirt waving it

around, you know you've hit the big time.

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That's incredible.

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They also speak in tongues-

Yep … which I think is something

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that we both grew up with.

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Yep.

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And then the kind of the

last feature is a lot of…

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And I don't know if they do this to a T,

but a lot of New Apostolic Reformation

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churches subscribe to what they call the

Seven Mountains Mandate, which was it's a

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term coined by an NAR leader named Lance

Wallnau, and then he like co-authored a

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book with with Bethel Church's founder,

Bill Johnson, called just describing

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the S- Seven Mountains Mandate.

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And basically what it is it's an

order from God to Christians in,

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in America, but in any nation, to

go out and occupy and control the

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seven realms of social influence.

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One of them is government.

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Another one is education.

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Another one is entertainment.

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Yeah.

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I don't know if I know all seven

of them off the top of my head.

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Oh, I've forgotten them.

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I'm sure I have it saved- … on an old

hard drive- Yeah … somewhere from when

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I was doing my Seven Mountains stuff.

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Ugh.

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But it's where you see a lot of Christian

movies come- Yeah … come out and

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yeah, it's, that's like the relevant.

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And the place that it holds in society

r- right now is NAR people are they're

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like the sector of Christian nationalism

that is closest to Donald Trump's ear.

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Paula White-Cain, who's an NAR apostle,

is his, like, spiritual advisor, and

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they have very high positions in-

Wh- which- … American government

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right now … it's really interesting

because there is an element where

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it has a lot of, like- technically a

lot of theological bandwidth, right?

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Paula White famously upset a lot

of more theologically conservative

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Christians because she is not

necessarily a Trinitarian.

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And she has made- … statements

outside of that.

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She has made statements that

highly elevate herself that

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have, upset some of these folks.

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And it's one of these interesting

cases where a lot of the sort of

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theological debates of the past that

could become, spill out into the

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public quite frequently, like they

would do call-outs on the, between

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televangelists all the time in the '70s.

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Where a lot of that's been smoothed

over and instead they're…

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I won't say it's necessarily

a united front, but it is

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certainly- … a lot better organized

internally than it used to be.

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I think part of that strength is they

just, they know that they have seized

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the country in a really real way.

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Sure.

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And they're, like, like operating

on that logic right now.

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"We're not gonna fight each

other necessarily too much."

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There's a little bit, but like- … yeah.

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That's just speculation

on my part, though.

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But but anyway so all of that is

just like throat-clearing, saying

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this, this new church is in town.

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They bought this building.

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Ray and Ray had been preaching, I think…

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I can't remember if it was, like…

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Actually, I don't know if I ever knew,

but he was preaching in just other

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kind of cobbled-together places before

he could get ahold of a building.

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But he had felt a call to come

to the, to come to the Inland

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Northwest and start a, a church here.

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And and he was able to purchase

the the New Community's Church's

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building for 900 grand in, in May.

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Unclear where he got that money.

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He does allude in some of his sermons

to having done fasting fundraisers

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to try to raise the money for it, but

I don't know how accurate that is.

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A lot of th- a lot of these

purchases I think are made

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through benefactors and- Yeah.

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I would imagine so.

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D- if we're…

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Just having run some of those types of

fundraisers before, it, you do need to

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have someone to call on the other end who

will- Yeah … who will drop the money.

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Yeah.

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And, we…

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I don't know, I don't know the finances

of Mercy Culture Church back to front,

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but I, we know that, The, and this is

another interesting way that Zeal fits

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into the Spokane NAR landscape is Landon

is really good friends with Russell

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Johnson, who runs The Pursuit Church,

which recently established plant, planted

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a branch here, I think about a year ago.

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And Russell is well-known for jet-setting

around on private jets, and he owns

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his own helicopter which he uses to

fly between campuses of his church.

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They've got a lot of money.

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There's a lot there's

a lot of money there.

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You can't…

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It's not like a government entity.

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You can't look inside and

see how much, but it they're

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well-heeled people you should know.

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Sure, sure.

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So why are we talking about Zeal then?

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What, what happened after

they took over the church?

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What's happened to Shalom Ministries

and what is the, c- contrasting

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them with the church that they

took over from what are they like?

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So I never went to New

Community, so I don't really

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know what that church is like.

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I've only been on their website and

they, I think one of the, one of the like

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codices that you can use to like identify

a church that's a little bit more like

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liberal in terms of like social issues

is, they're a queer-affirming church.

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They invite they, they allow people to

be members who are in, who are, like

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me- members of the LGBTQ community.

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And whereas I think that's probably

the biggest like marked difference

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that you can see right away

between New Community and Zeal.

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New Community and Zeal did not get along.

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Ray said in a in a statement after

like news articles started writing

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or news organizations started writing

articles about about Zeal that he

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knew when he came here that he was

going to be inheriting some, quote

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unquote, "unhealthy partnerships."

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And he was specifically talking about

New Community and their acceptance of

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LGBTQ communities and Shalom Ministries,

which is like, it's the it's a, it's

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just a, it's a Christian ministry that

fed poor folks breakfast in the church

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five days a week, and they served, some

tens of thousands of meals every year for

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the last 32 years out of that building.

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And one of the first things…

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it wasn't one of the first things.

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They did try to work things out in…

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I don't know how good faith those efforts

were, but but, After, after a few months

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Zeal Ray decided to cancel Shalom's lease

and kicked them out, and they're trying to

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figure out how they're gonna keep going.

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They d- they don't wanna

disband or anything.

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They have shuttered their doors,

but they- Yeah for the time.

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But I think you- Yeah … mentioned at

the end of your piece that they intend

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to be back up and are even thinking of

ways to expand a bit, Yeah … throughout

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the city, which I think is a, a

nice note to end that on for sure.

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A, a nice for your story at least.

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So hopefully they can

find something there.

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Yeah.

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And I talked to the the the chair

of the board of Shalom Ministries

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Dexter Phillips, and he said, this…

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He didn't have any ill will toward

Pastor Valdez or anything like that.

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No.

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He just, he was just like, it was

unfortunate, but, this forces us

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to, possibly develop a new model

that might work better for us."

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So he seemed somewhat optimistic but,

in the meantime, those meals aren't

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being served and- … and one of the

interesting things is the re- the reason

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I find it fascinating is obviously,

it's tragic that, this resource doesn't

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exist downtown anymore for needy people.

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But one of the things that Ray said in

his statement was that, downtown Spokane

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doesn't need Jesu- or it doesn't need

food, it needs Jesus, which is a very New

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Apostolic Reformation type thing to say.

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And so I was, I spent a bunch of time at

his church and I talked to him and some of

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his parishioners a, a good bit and I des-

I was, I was describing to them what I saw

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in the church, just the characteristics of

it and and it, the, the conversation would

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turn to the New Apostolic Reformation

and they would say the name but they

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they would claim not to know what it is.

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And so you and I were having this

conversation a little while back

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about we wanna start producing some,

some, some new Christian nationalist

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related materials and we're trying to

brainstorm ideas for that and you came

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up with this idea about how these ideas

or these, these characteristics of

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broader movements like the New Apostolic

Reformation can filter down into younger

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churches without them knowing it.

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Whether they're being, like, disingenuous

about knowing what the NAR is, it's

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just it's an aesthetic that they've

very heartily assumed, yeah, for sure.

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Yeah.

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That, that's one of the that's one

of the interesting things, right?

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I was in YWAM Youth With A Mission-

and I would not describe most

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of the people there as, outright

Christian nationalists by any metric.

438

But we definitely had, the Seven

Mountains Mandate was a, a core doctrine.

439

They would do-- We would have these big

gatherings that would be like, "What are

440

you-- What, what realm are you committing

to your life to changing the culture

441

or changing introducing Christ into

these these different areas of society?"

442

And that's one of the interesting ways

where you-- I don't want to even say that

443

it's indoctrinating, but it is literally

taking a doctrine- … and introducing

444

it to people, and maybe they don't know.

445

I don't think most people who knew that

knew where the Seven Mountains Mandate

446

came from, knew that it came from

someone who was, I believe, of a lot

447

more overtly nat- Christian nationalist.

448

Yes.

449

And, but the logic of it really is to I

think goes kind of hand-in-hand with that

450

a lot because it is this idea of imposing

Christian moral and ethical constraints,

451

and specifically their conservative

Christ- their conservative Christian

452

morals and ethics and beliefs about

the world onto these different spheres.

453

And, these are things like government

and education to an extent.

454

Yeah.

455

So it's not just you're producing

a movie or anything like

456

that, or creating a product.

457

It's more that you are, helping

to change what is actually

458

legislated, what is actually taught.

459

I think a lot of the times it goes

hand-in-hand with opposing the teaching

460

of evolution, opposing, obviously, the

teaching of any sort of sexual education

461

that isn't just abstinence only.

462

It is a lot of the things that we saw i-

in the '80s in the Reagan administration

463

and and especially in the George W.

464

Bush administration and again in the

Trump administration, where these,

465

these kind of things where it's,

it's framed around religious freedom,

466

it's framed around religious liberty.

467

Is that really an accurate

description of what is…

468

is that really a neutral signifier?

469

I don't I don't think so.

470

I think it is often more like when

you dig into it, there are often very

471

specific things behind it, right?

472

These specific social issues, the

specific educational issues, the

473

specific government issues that

they, would like to see mandated in

474

some ways or legislated into being.

475

Yeah.

476

And that's, and I think that's the, that's

the big new turn of this movement is,

477

that has started to take effect in our

i- in the governance of our lives, right?

478

The, I think the big the big moment where

a lot of people realized this was when

479

they were successful in overturning Roe v.

480

Wade.

481

Yeah, the Dobbs decision-

Yeah … really, I think, was I

482

think, a, a tr- where people started

to maybe take it more seriously,

483

at least people who hadn't before.

484

And I think it has resulted in quite

a bit of backlash against them.

485

But we'll see, in November

how much backlash that is.

486

Okay, so we're back with Free Range.

487

This is Aaron Hedge and Hayden Tank,

and we've been talking about a new

488

church in town, Zeal Church, and we're

trying to try to we wanna switch gears

489

a little bit 'cause, that, I, as any far

right, especially, like, apostolic-coded

490

church does, it opens up into this

huge landscape of histories that af-

491

that affected, people who came up

in organizations, like you mentioned

492

before, YWAM and things like that.

493

So I was, yeah, I was just hoping

that maybe you could give me just

494

tell me your story a little bit.

495

Like, how did growing up, were

you saved yourself as a Christian?

496

Yeah.

497

So I was, My mom and dad were invited

to an Assemblies of God church when

498

I was around six or seven years old.

499

And my mom had not really grown up

religious at all, I don't believe.

500

My dad had grown up, culturally Christian.

501

Chri- Christmas and Easter

kind of- … typical.

502

They're both from Montana.

503

But we started going to church when

I was a, a young child, and after I

504

graduated from high school, around the

time I graduated from high school, my,

505

my brother passed away from leukemia.

506

It was very traumatic-

Oh, no … obviously.

507

And and I had just a couple

of rough years after that.

508

Didn't end up going to, to college

or and just had a job that was fine,

509

but it was, not very fulfilling.

510

And I thought, "Hey, what if

I went and became a volunteer

511

missionary for a couple of years?"

512

Wow.

513

And ended up doing that with YWAM.

514

I was based out of Perth, Australia and

vis- spent time doing missionary work

515

in Kolkata, in India, and in and in

Nepal- Wow … which was, incredible.

516

But while that was happening, one of the

things was that I, I spent a lot of time

517

reading the Bible and diving in and, they

focused a lot on Jesus' love and on taking

518

care of the poor and things like that.

519

At least, nominally, those were

considered very important things.

520

It started to put some cracks

in it, though, when I started

521

contrasting what I was reading and

understanding from spending all of

522

this time as a missionary with kind

of how Christianity was practiced

523

by my evangelical co-religionists.

524

And, I- it may seem really obvious to

a lot of people, but for me, d- feeling

525

that hypocrisy firsthand and kind

of- … contrasting what I now really

526

believed, probably for the first time in

my life, it really was impactful for me,

527

contrasting that with how people talked

about the homeless how people- talked

528

about the poor, how much everything in

our society seemed to be honoring the

529

wealthy and how many, like That was

really starting to irk me quite a bit.

530

And, any time I'd go home, it would just

feel insane compared to what I- Yeah … I

531

thought was important about Christianity.

532

And seeing that compared to what

was going on back at home and

533

in my home church was not great.

534

It definitely bugged me quite a bit.

535

And then I, when I was

in Australia, we were…

536

I think one of the key moments

was I realized that one of my

537

missionary friends, at least a

couple of them were clearly gay.

538

… And, they'd been delivered from the

sins of homosexuality or whatever.

539

But it was very confronting for me

to realize they don't really have a

540

choice in this matter, but they're

being- … forced to be essentially

541

celibate for life or to worse, end up

in a lavender marriage that isn't based

542

on any sort of physical attraction.

543

Yeah.

544

It's just so that you can

be married sort of thing.

545

A lavender marriage is essentially

when you're when you're attracted

546

to the opposite sex and you

for show you marry- Yeah.

547

You, if- Or you're attracted to

the same sex- Yeah … and you

548

marry somebody of the opposite sex.

549

Rock Hudson- Yeah.

550

Yeah, exactly … for any of

our older listeners out there.

551

Yeah.

552

So that sort of thing.

553

And I just remember we were, we'd been

contracted, I, I've messed around in

554

film, film a little bit, and myself

and a couple of the other guys were

555

contracted to film some advertisements

for the anti-pro-marriage plebiscite.

556

They had a pro-marriage, they had

a, a, a gay marriage plebiscite

557

in Australia, so something the

entire country could vote for.

558

Yeah.

559

It ended up passing.

560

This was in 2015.

561

We, that- Okay … 2016, that's

when all this was going down.

562

And- I just remember we were interviewing

this guy for or filming him, 'cause

563

you, you gotta get all these B-roll

shots f- of just ordinary people.

564

So we- Yeah … we found people from

local churches who were sympathetic to it.

565

And one of the guys just

couldn't stop talking about

566

how much he hated his ex-wife.

567

And it's I'm pretty sure divorce is

forbidden in the Bible and those kind

568

of things really started to irk me.

569

I was thinking about re-upping

my time as a missionary, and it

570

turned out that someone had put the

wrong date on one part of my visa

571

application at the registrar's office.

572

Oh, wow.

573

So I got a phone call in spring of

574

telling me, "You've got you've got

three days to get out of this country.

575

The grace period's expired."

576

Oh, they waited until after the

grace period to call and tell me-

577

Oh my gosh … that my visa…

578

Yeah.

579

They, so I- Wow … I- That's terrifying.

580

Oh, it was one of the

worst days of my life.

581

But I eventually worked it out.

582

I ended up getting a little bit of

extra grace time to leave, like a few

583

weeks to be able to- … get together

the money to buy a plane ticket,

584

'cause I was, a broke missionary.

585

It's like, "I'll leave,

but I can't right now."

586

I literally, I told the

lady, I was almost crying.

587

I was like, "I don't have the

money to leave right now."

588

Wow … I was like, "Please

just give me some sort…"

589

And she eventually was like,

"Okay, here's a bridge visa."

590

And I was like, "Thank you,"

'cause I- Wow … I'm in trouble.

591

They were like, "If you

can't, we will deport you."

592

Oh, wow … which is very

scary phone call to hear.

593

So I was banned for three

years from Australia.

594

I could have appealed it, but, around

that time I was also exploring, More

595

critical looks at American history

and the, the podcast The Dollop,

596

which is a, a funny history podcast.

597

It's really great, but they had a, an

episode l- I don't know if it came out

598

later, but one of the ones that really

hit me somewhere around then was,

599

like, maybe it was after, but it was

about Fred Hampton, who was a guy I'd

600

never heard of- … at that point, and,

talking about some of the things we were

601

discussing before the, the Black Panthers

in Chicago set up this school program

602

this school breakfast program, free

breakfast for school kids as part of the,

603

10-point Black Panther Party program.

604

And that l- really, like, seeing

other views of history that

605

weren't these kind of stilted…

606

I had great teachers growing up.

607

N- nothing against them, but seeing

kind of a more critical look at

608

how we're taught the history that

we inherit really shook me up,

609

and that wa- I didn't rush out and

declare myself an atheist, and, and-

610

I've never really gotten into that

sort of side of things, but I stopped

611

really going to church much except for,

with my wife's family occasionally.

612

And yeah, so that was That was the,

one of the big, That was, that,

613

that was my journey out of it.

614

And it really as I…

615

I think one of the things that really was

tough was when as I'm going home, suddenly

616

it's the, it's the 2016 primaries.

617

So it was in the middle of that, and

seeing- … so many of the pastors

618

and, friends from growing up l- like-

kind of cling to this campaign that

619

I saw as obviously very racist- and

xenophobic and the opposite of the,

620

the love that we'd preached and we'd

tried to exemplify as missionaries.

621

That really, I think,

impacted me quite a bit.

622

I think that was pretty critical

on my journey, and I think that's

623

true for a lot of people, even for

people who aren't missionaries.

624

Seeing kind of the rhetoric coming out

of that campaign and the dehumanization

625

of so many different groups of people.

626

You're specifically talking about

627

… presidential campaign of Do- Donald Trump

that, and the, a bunch of evangelical

628

pastors, figures a lot of them res-

reticently, but then kind of- Yeah

629

encouraged his strong runs.

630

They all came on board, right?

631

Some of them were calling him, all

sorts of things r- … right up until

632

he won the primary, and then all of that

was gone, and that was really tough,

633

like- Yeah … seeing that the, what

to me seemed like a lack of principle.

634

They would frame it differently.

635

They would see, they'd see him as Cyrus

the Great, maybe not one of us, but a,

636

a great liberator of our people, what

I, and I wanna draw a little a little

637

bit of the tension here is 'cause, and I

don't think we talked specifically about

638

what we mentioned the term YWAM before.

639

It's called, it's a, it's an

organization called Youth With A Mission.

640

Yeah.

641

And it's this…

642

i've run into YWAM a couple of times.

643

They're very charismatic, like- Yeah … a

lot of the same kind of aesthetics of

644

Apostolic Reformation, but a little

bit more, it's not as doom and gloom.

645

No, it's a lot more the

friendly, like- Yeah … they

646

very much- You're missionaries.

647

You're doing hopeful work, right?

648

Yeah and that's how it, it's

presented, and I think a lot of

649

the people there are very genuine.

650

I don't think these- … I would

never I try not to think that people

651

are cynical or acting in bad faith.

652

And I think a lot of, I was

certainly genuine- … and I

653

assume most other people were.

654

But they it's an organization that was

started by a guy named Loren Cunningham

655

and it was it was I think around the

'50s, but it really took off in the '60s.

656

So you had the, the hippie movement

also had a Jesus movement- Right

657

element to it.

658

Yeah.

659

The self-described Jesus freaks, and

they picked up a lot of these people.

660

And, for people who were strung

out on drugs I'm sure it was nice

661

to have a community- Yeah … that

could get you out of that.

662

But it was very popular

in that time period.

663

And that's when they really took

off, is the late '60s, early '70s.

664

And that's where they came from.

665

But their model, like I mentioned

before, is sort of franchises.

666

So- … they, their central headquarters

is in Hawaii I think in Kona, Hawaii.

667

I've never been, but then they have

bases in 100 countries around the world.

668

It's a huge global organization.

669

Yeah, it's hu- there are tens

of thousands of members, so

670

they send out lots of teams.

671

And you pay your own way, your

church pays your way, whatever.

672

But it's usually most people just do

the six months and then you're out.

673

So it's just a, I think fairly

described as missionary tourism, really.

674

Yeah.

675

Yeah … you do 12 weeks of training,

which is mostly just here's the

676

basics of our version of Christianity.

677

They have some theological bandwidth.

678

They consider themselves

non-denominational, but most of their

679

doctrinal commitments, like the,

the red lines thou shall not cross,

680

are very in line with New Apostolic

Reformation- … type stuff, where

681

it's, it's y- no, there's no question

on gay marriage or- … homosexuality.

682

There's no, you know- No

question meaning it's not okay.

683

It's not okay.

684

Yeah.

685

That's settled.

686

Abortion is basically

the same sort of thing.

687

It's a lot of the same culture war issues.

688

But they're not- Most of the people

there are not segregationist types.

689

You'll occasionally get- Yeah

… Southern Baptists folks, and I'm

690

sure in the South there are still,

with the resurgence of that sort of

691

rhetoric I'm sure it's come back.

692

But for the most part I don't think

a lot of these people are like,

693

the, the chief hate mongers of the

New Apostolic Reformation- yeah

694

or the broader Christian

nationalist movement.

695

They're not the guys who were on the

696

I do know that- Oh, really?

697

… I don't actually know that's the case.

698

That's the thing, though, is that,

like I said I know people from from

699

my YWAM days who went out and went

on the Calgary truckers protest.

700

From Calgary- Okay … went

on the truckers-

701

Interesting … convoy in Canada.

702

And so that, there is overlap there,

and you get like- Interesting.

703

So it is very much in that, it

was started as a, an offshoot of

704

the Assemblies of God which, was

the church tradition I grew up in.

705

I didn't know that when I joined it.

706

I just thought, "Wow, there's

a lot of AoG people go."

707

But that, that's again, a lot of the

connections between these places, you just

708

have to look into like, where did this guy

to go to seminary to find out like what

709

are his actual like doctrinal commitments.

710

Yeah.

711

So yeah.

712

So you have this like, like this

pretty, incredible in a lot of ways,

713

like formative, a lot of it was very

difficult it sounds like just like like

714

way out of evangelical Christianity.

715

You become like somewhat disillusioned

about, with the way like you hear,

716

just the rhetic- rhetoric that

you hear in those communities.

717

You come back to the States, it's, it's

the beginning of the Trump era, and

718

is it at that point where you like…

719

'Cause there's this, there's a point

at which you fall back in love with

720

the Bible in like a different way.

721

You know what?

722

That was way later.

723

Is that accurate?

724

That's way later, okay.

725

So it was literally, I got laid off.

726

I worked for Adidas, Okay … in,

727

And I don't know if you know this, but-

728

Two big things hit Adidas right at once.

729

I don't know anything about Ad- Adidas.

730

First was Kanye becoming,

coming out as a Nazi.

731

He'd been making- Oh, yeah

732

Things.

733

Okay.

734

Yep.

735

The Yeezy brand was a big deal.

736

And then around that same time, Russia

invades Ukraine, and Russia is the second

737

or third biggest market- … for Adidas,

and especially, their beloved tracksuits.

738

The track- the tracksuits

that- … Russia selected.

739

And so I was on the first first line

for getting their the tech guys.

740

I don't know about some of this-

Oh, no … app development.

741

And so- Okay … we a bunch

of us got laid off from that.

742

And my wife was watching Supernatural,

which is the the, the TV show- … for

743

which I'm plenty of people who

listen to public radio, I'm sure

744

are fans of, fans- Yeah … of Rain

should probably some overlap there.

745

Yeah.

746

But they made some reference to

the Book of Enoch like to Lilith,

747

I think or which who- … isn't

in the Book of Enoch actually.

748

To Lilith, who, is this…

749

and anyway I ended up going down a

Wikipedia rabbit hole for a couple of

750

hours and found one of the references

was to a book by a, a scholar

751

from Exeter University Francesca

Savigeri-Pulu, her book, God and Anatomy.

752

And she's a really excellent scholar.

753

And she goes through the ways

that, when I was growing up, God

754

was … evangelicals don't care

as much about this sort of thing.

755

Some do.

756

I don't wanna speak for everyone.

757

But at least it wasn't as important

to us that God is portrayed in the

758

Hebrew Bible, especially as in the same

way that all gods were at the time.

759

He's a big guy.

760

Yeah.

761

He's just a really big guy.

762

Sometimes he could be

a really big old guy.

763

Sometimes he's, like a virulent warrior.

764

But she does, goes through all the

different parts of his body that

765

are described and- Interesting

… challenges us to take seriously

766

that's what these people believed

and uses, comparative literature.

767

And that really opened things up in a

big way for me because it'll like now,

768

I, by that point, I was years out,

and I thought, I'm not a, an atheist.

769

I don't know what I am.

770

I, I-" … apatheist, okay.

771

I don't really care.

772

But That sounds comfortable.

773

But and I avoided a lot of that because

when I was a Christian, I found a

774

lot of them, a lot of people in that

realm spoke a lot of things about the

775

Bible very polemically, and I wasn't

really interested in doing that.

776

I don't … what someone believes about

the afterlife is of no import to me.

777

But what I found was that all this

ancient literature that I was so

778

familiar with growing up was way

more interesting than I thought.

779

And y- you'd see things like like finding

out that I'm trying to think about

780

what I can talk about on public radio.

781

No it's like finding out that, for

example, in Deuteronomy 32 at the,

782

it's near the end of the Torah, right?

783

It's near the end of the Pentateuch,

the, the first five books of the Bible.

784

It's this very archaic

poetry at the very end.

785

Moses is giving his farewell speech.

786

And in Deuteronomy 32, as he's doing

that, there's this really archaic

787

literature and po- lines of poem that

are even older than scholars think.

788

It's among some of the old- the poetic

parts of- Interesting … the Bible,

789

some of them are among the oldest parts.

790

Poetry often predates prose.

791

Prose writing, in, in alphabetic script

comes in around, eh, 8th century,

792

maybe some in the 9th century BCE.

793

But poetry would've been around for a

little while before that, and it's a

794

lot easier to pass down orally, right?

795

Yeah.

796

It's memorable.

797

That's part of the, that's

part of why it's poetry.

798

The Song of Solomon is way

easier to read than Deuteronomy.

799

And so in the middle of this, in

Deuteronomy it says a- I, and I'm

800

paraphrasing here, but it says ask

your elders and they'll tell you.

801

Ask the people who came before you.

802

When Yahweh," or sorry, "when El Elyon

divided the nations or peoples, he did

803

so according to the nu- numbers of the

sons" And this is where it gets tricky.

804

If you go off of what's in a lot of

people's Bibles, which is based on the

805

Masoretic Text from medieval Judaism it

predates that, but that's the tradition.

806

That's the oldest we have.

807

It says, "The sons of Israel," right?

808

Okay.

809

Yeah.

810

"The sons of

811

Jacob," which doesn't really

make sense which it's- Jac- Jacob

812

and Israel are the same person.

813

Are the same thing.

814

Yeah.

815

It's, yeah.

816

And what that's, what it's describing

is God dividing up the nations

817

and giving them each a patron god.

818

And, but in the Septuagint, the old Greek

that predates the Masoretic Text, and

819

in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls, like

one fragment, it instead says, "By the

820

number of the sons of the gods," or, "By

the number of the gods," which is 70.

821

They're they c- 70 was, like,

a big completion number.

822

It's like saying 100, okay.

823

Just a colloquial.

824

It's a big, round number, I would

say is a good way to put it.

825

And then it says for," I think it's,

"For Israel is Yahweh's portion."

826

So that's one of the interesting-

… things is it's instead setting up

827

this conception where Israel's god,

like the, the Israel as in Israel and

828

Judah, Israel's god is Yahweh, whereas

El Elyon is the god above Yahweh, and

829

he's apportioned out patron gods for

all of these different places, the num-

830

the number of the sons of the gods.

831

And- So El Elyon basically established,

like, all the hierarchies- … and

832

gave Yahweh his own little fiefdom

in Israel, and- R- … got it.

833

Which comports with what we see.

834

El and Yahweh are, like, in one of the

strands of the Torah, m- so scholars

835

propose that there are multiple

strands that were woven together

836

to form the Torah, and one of them

really wants to emphasize that El

837

and Yahweh are the same guy, right?

838

You'll remember Mose- he says,

I think in the beginning of

839

Exodus "My name is," "Yahweh.

840

By this name you have

not known me before."

841

Yep.

842

Of course, it's all over

Genesis because these multiple

843

strands are to- taken together.

844

You're like, "What are you talking about?

845

It says Yahweh all over Genesis."

846

That's what I was gonna say.

847

"You d- plenty of people knew

you by Yahweh, including Moses."

848

Like- But for Christianity to be

true, they have to be the same God.

849

So it's it's this new…

850

And it sounds like that's what you're

interested in here, is these new little

851

things that confuse it and make it way

more complicated than it needs to be.

852

Yeah.

853

A- and that's what scholars

have pieced together, is that

854

originally Yahweh, like other storm

gods, were second-tier deities.

855

They would be like patron

deities for for countries, but

856

not necessarily the highest god.

857

Marduk, Zeus.

858

But around the time that Yahweh

shows up on the scene, a lot of these

859

storm gods, like Zeus and Yahweh,

take the place of the high god.

860

And since then-

Wow … hasn't been undone.

861

Zeus, … killing Kronos, Yeah

… who'd been eating his children.

862

And Yahweh…

863

But instead, they're conflated, which

makes it way more interesting to me.

864

So that's just a little

teaser for y'all at home.

865

This is the ki- this is the

kind of lore that you find-

866

on the Bible Lore Podcast.

867

Exactly.

868

And y- you can you can find that on any of

the, on any of the apps, I think, right?

869

A- any platform.

870

You can also just go to

patreon.com/biblelorepodcast.

871

Episodes are out two weeks

early for paying members, but

872

free for everyone after that.

873

Hayden Tank, thanks so much for

being on the radio with me today.

874

It was fun.

875

Yeah, thank you for having me on.

876

I was worried I would cuss,

and I don't think I did.

877

You did a great job.

878

I think I was a good boy today,

so- Yeah … thanks for having me.

879

You would've seen me frantically

trying to hit the- … the dumb button.

880

That's our time this week.

881

Free Range is a weekly news and

public affairs program presented

882

by Range Media and produced by

Range Media and KYRS Community

883

Radio, KYRS Medical Lake Spokane.

884

Bye, everyone.

885

Bye.