This is a special episode, not only is it the season finale (don't worry we'll be back with Season 6 soon) but Sarah is also joined by two guests from our season sponsors BrightLocal, Founder and CEO Myles Anderson, and Local SEO Expert Claire Carlile, to talk about company culture, and how it helps when leading through a crisis.

About Myles:

Myles Anderson is the CEO and Co-founder of BrightLocal, a technology company with a mission to help marketers become brilliant at local SEO. Founded in 2009, BrightLocal is an independent, bootstrapped business focusing on profitable, long-term growth. Growing at 20% a year, BrightLocal now serves over 7,000 customers and employs 280 people across the UK, Ukraine, Poland, and the Philippines.

Where to find Myles:

Myles Anderson LinkedIn

About Claire:

Where to find Claire:

Claire Carlile LinkedIn

Where to find BrightLocal

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BrightLocal Website

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Resources used for episode

• Patrick Lencioni
• Simon Sinek – The Optimism Company
• Areej AbuAli
• Leading Through Crisis, by Myles Anderson - BrightLocal

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Hello and a very warm welcome to the SEO Mindset podcast. I am your host, Sarah, and today is a special episode and that is for a couple of reasons. Unfortunately, it is the season finale. This is the last episode of the season, but me and Tazmin will be back in a few weeks time with season six. And as you're all aware, the fabulous Bright Local have been our season sponsor, so big shout out. And thanks to them and that's not all. I am joined by not one, but two guests from Bright Local. First up, CEO and founder Myles Anderson and local SEO expert Claire Carlile. They're going to join me on this podcast to talk about all things about the importance of company culture and leading through a crisis. So, welcome. Hello to you both.

Hello.

Hi, Sarah. Lovely to be here.

It's fabulous to have you both on and yeah, talking, A, about A, really important subject, and B, you're both here representing Bright locals, so that's fabulous. I'm enjoying the noises, Claire. I'm enjoying the noises.

That's what she's here for.

Yeah, I'm just going to do the sound effects.

I mean, at some point in the future, I will be professional enough to have some buttons that I can press, but, hey, I can use you, Claire, if that's all right for sound.

You will, definitely.

Are you both surviving the current heat and not melting?

Clary, how are you doing in Wales?

It's very warm, it's a bit close. Yeah, it's a bit hot in the office.

Yeah, I'm in Brighton and it's actually not too bad today. We had a bit of a thunderstorm and that's kind of blown away some of the heat and we've got the breeze blowing off the sea, so think we're better today than we have been the last few days.

I do enjoy a thunderstorm. They are quite exciting.

The nice thing about this one is having it in the middle of the night and so they got all the rain out the way in the middle of the night, we were sleeping, then we came up and it's and it's kind of dry again. So it's kind of the ideal the ideal weather pattern.

Yes. And we were saying beforehand, it's such a British thing to talk about weather, isn't it? Obviously we have listeners from across the globe. That's all exciting, but, yeah, that's always a thing that us Brits like to talk about the weather, because.

Common ground for us to kind of base the rest of the conversation off.

I mean, sadly, this episode is not about weather, we're not here to talk about that. We're here to talk about something that is more important and yes, that is company culture and leading through a crisis. So, yeah, I'm really excited to get stuck in because both very important topics and something that I think our audience can resonate with. So let's begin. And my first question is going to be to you, Myles, what does company culture mean to you and why is it important?

So this is probably my favorite topic to talk about besides the weather. It's incredibly important to me and a little bit about bright local for those who are listening and who don't kind of know us. We've been going for about 14 years. We're headquartered in Brighton, but we've got offices in the UK, in Ukraine, in Poland, and in the Philippines. We're getting close to 300 people. So that's the sort of lie of the land in terms of the sort of business. And we've grown the company consistently, sort of year after year, and I put a huge amount of that growth down to having a really strong culture. For me, having a strong culture makes us, as a business, stronger than the sum of our parts. It binds everyone together. In fact, I often use the phrase it's the glue between the different departments. I actually have a sort of slightly more kind of grotesque vision of a business being like a human body. And you have these organs which do specialist things. You have the liver, let's say, is your marketing. You have your stomach, which is, let's say it's your sort of finance team, so you have all these sort of specialist organs that do their jobs. But culture is like the muscle and the tissue that binds it all together and makes all these sort of specialist departments become more effective and more successful and makes the sort of body and the business kind of work as one together. I feel if you don't have this sort of strong tissue, this strong muscle between the different departments, they go off at tangents. They focus in different areas. They're not coordinated in their efforts. But if you do have a strong culture that gives people a real common understanding for how to behave, how to communicate what's important within the business, then you get people headed in the right direction, you get people collaborating really well, and you get the best out of the different teams that you've got across the business. And I've seen that from having a team of two, well up to having a team, a distributed team of close to close to 300. So for me, the culture is the strongest thing. There's a great phrase that culture eats strategy for breakfast, and I'm a big believer in that. If I could choose one thing, a good strategy or a great culture, I would always choose great culture. Ideally, both. But if I had to choose, I'd go for culture.

Wonderful. And I'm all for an analogy, and that is the first time that I've heard about the body one, but it's a great one. And also you learn in parts of the body as well. So it's a win win, good for.

All ages, all general, very visual. It's a bit graphic and a bit sort of you should have just stuck.

With visual, not with the graphic. I think we were fine until that point. Joking aside, yeah, I completely get and culture underpins everything, doesn't it? And it's important to get it right from the start. Claire, would you like to add anything to this? Your own experiences or any thoughts, anything at all?

Very briefly. I think this is my first real experience of culture, company culture, because before I've been working at Bright Local, I was a teacher in a system that was generally falling apart. And then I've been self employed for so many years, I've created my own culture, which is like a culture of one person collaborating with clients and a few sort of close other professionals. So for me, it's been a very eye opening and new experience, but fundamentally very positive. So I think I'm probably quite lucky that I've slipped in here rather than anywhere else. So, yeah, that's my experience.

Nice and more visual language there. Slipping in.

Slipping in. Yeah, lots of that. Yeah, we don't use any sort of war footing language. We're just very much visual peaceful people 100%.

I love it. I love it. Okay, so going back to you, Myles, how do you implement and maintain a healthy company culture now? I feel like this is a quite loaded question, but yes.

I guess let's assume our culture is healthy and positive. We like to think it is, but let's just take a leap of faith and say that it is. I think the first thing when I was growing the business, I don't think I was necessarily aware of the culture we were growing until a certain point, and I can't put a date on it, but I think survival was our key was our key criteria in the kind of early days. Because we're self funded, we never had any sort of funding, so we've had to kind of grow organically. That was great in many respects and also led to quite a few challenges along the way. But as soon as it kind of came conscious that there was a group of people who were coming together regularly that didn't weren't always around me, for example. So it kind of got the kind of organization got kind of bigger than sort of my sort of personal influence if oh, hang on. I want the company to kind of grow in the right way. And I made a conscious step of really basically writing down, figuring out what I wanted our culture to be, which I think is always a key step, is make a conscious decision. Whatever your culture is, make a conscious decision about what it is, write it down, and then clearly communicate that out as often and regularly as possible so that you know what the culture is and so you can answer questions about it, but then everyone else kind of joining your business can also do it. And so then it's about communication and reinforcement as regularly and constantly as possible. And for us that starts at the recruitment stage. It starts with our job description. It just starts with what we put on our About US page so that potential candidates looking to apply for a job clearly know the type of business we are. And where that's really good is that it ensures that we recruit people who are committed to working in a place with our type of culture. And often you get more candidates and the right type of candidates for your organization because they're attracted by what you've told them about the business. So that's the first key thing is get it right from the outset. With recruitment, we have actually have a belief rather than values. We have company beliefs sort of bright locally and we have what's called our beliefs interview which is where two people across the business, usually me, I try and interview everyone at this stage comes in. And this conversation is not about do you have the skills and experience to do the job? They've already gone through that phase. This is about what do you like to work with, what do you like as a human being, as a person? Is bright local going to be a place where you will love it and flourish? The key and also will you become a great team member to work alongside other people who will also really enjoy the experience of working with you. So that's what we try and understand and tease out in our beliefs. Interview. It's got some quite random questions but it really helps to get a different side of the individual from the skills and experience side that you get with more standard interviews and interview questions then it obviously through the onboarding we really try and reinforce that. I have a kind of culture onboarding session with each new starter. And that's a two way exercise where I'm talking about that culture. Then I'm getting them to reflect it back to me, getting them to participate in a couple of group sessions that's really, really effective and really helps bring it to life. Then actually one of the key things we try and do is once we know that someone is even within their sort of three month sort of trial period, we actually try and get them on the other side of a beliefs. Interview so they're the one doing the interviewing of someone else coming into the business because that's a real epiphany moment where we're giving them almost the keys to the business and say, look, you're a custodian of our culture, now you have Aravito if you don't think the person coming in is going to add to that culture. And that's a great step if we've given that kind of authority and sort of trust to make that key decision. So we try and make that happen ideally within the first three months is give people put on the other side of the table and have them have that other side of that experience. And then I think another thing we also do quite a lot is we reinforce it through small things and big things. The best thing we do is we actually run a daily sort of competition on Slack or the Big Heart Awards. Our logo is a heart and it's called the Big Heart Awards. And that is a sort of peer to peer recognition scheme that runs across the business where people are recognized on Slack for exhibiting and living our beliefs small and large, but all kind of going above and beyond. And the love thing about that is it kind of drip feeds our culture. Every day we have around, let's say, four to six nominations a day from different parts of the organization. Then those are publicly upvoted by other team members and you get little shout outs and comments off the back of that. At the end of each, we add it all up and we get runners up and we get winners. Winners get a day's holiday, they also get to donate $250 to their charity of their choice and the runners up get a sort of gift card as well. So that's actually how we really drip feed the culture on a regular basis.

So it sounds like there's quite a lot of moving parts to this, isn't there? When you have decided what your healthy culture or what your company culture should be, there's quite a lot of different things that you've got to be aware of and to manage, I suppose. So, yeah, it's really interesting to hear all the different ways that you do it. It sounds like bright local. You guys are smashing it. So, Claire, what benefits have you experienced then, both for yourself or others?

Because this is very personal to me. I think the main benefit is that the way that I've been working before, which is sort of about only working with people that are very authentic and human and have feel the same way about the world as me. It fits together like I haven't had to. You know, obviously I'm part of a different system and different processes, but but the things that hold bright local together are the same thing. So it's not been difficult for me. Again, very personally, I haven't got lost within that or found that it's difficult to navigate in any way. If anything, it's actually even nicer than the ones that I set for myself in terms of sort of kindness, praise, just the way that it works within the framework of the systems that are in place to talk about culture and reward people. So, yeah, my my experience is, you know, talking about the Big Heart Awards, you know, I'm on Slack. I see that. I do. Whenever that pops up, I do spend my time just having a little look at it. Not because I'm involved in some sort of gamification, but I actually just like seeing what comes up there because it's very interesting for me to see how people are, what type of thing comes up there because obviously each thing fits in somewhere within the different parts of the company culture. But it's also like because finding opportunity within what we're traditionally seen as like a failure or a mistake, when you actually live that and you read it and you see it, it makes you feel so, like, set. It makes you feel happier as a person because you're not worried about obviously you won't want to make some business critical, awful mistake. But it just means that you don't feel like you're constantly on tentative hooks, worrying that you're not going to do the right thing, if that makes sense.

Yes, it 100% makes sense. And one word has come into mind is like wholesome, right? And it feels like it's very wholesome. And it's a big thing to be acknowledged, isn't it? And especially for those of the company that are day in, day out doing good things, really like doing their bit to be part of the culture and show how they are and support or whatever they're doing. So just getting that Acknowledgment is massive, isn't it? And it can go a long way just saying thanks or appreciate you or look, that thing that you did was amazing. And yeah, it sounds like all companies need to be definitely thinking about this in how they can interweave it more.

One of the things that I find great about it, I think, is because obviously we're located across four countries, we're also not home a lot, we've got a hybrid sort of working model. We're not all in front of each other each day is that it just constantly reminds other team members of the kind of level of kind of commitment and sort of focus that their colleagues are putting in. And I think when you want to do good work and we always talk to our team about doing the best work of their lives at Bright Local, it's really reassuring when you read these things and you go, great. My colleagues across the board in different countries and teams are as committed as I am, they're trying their hardest the way I am. That kind of actually makes it feel like your work and what you're putting in is being kind of supported and sort of followed up with others in the business. I think that's great actually. What Claire claire talked about how just the sort of slotting in and it feeling quite natural for me that's an essential thing because you want people to be able to get up to speed quickly. You want people to feel that they can just focus on their work as quickly as possible. And if people come in and it's an environment they just get because it's the kind of culture they get, they can quickly just be themselves, they can relax and they can throw themselves into whatever kind of projects and work that they need to do much, much faster. And so people get up to speed much quicker. They feel comfortable, they feel at home, they feel they can be themselves. That takes care of so much of the kind of struggles that I guess maybe other organizations might have with getting team members to be kind of onboarded and feeling comfortable. And then at the and then at the flip side or the the other end of the sort of spectrum, it makes people stay. You know, people if you if you if you get over the the hurdle of just paying people well, so that essentially money is not really a concern because you're paying them a good rate, a market rate, then what keeps people in a business? It's the ability to do great work, its ability to work with great people, ability to feel that they are being recognized, rewarded and appreciated, and they stay for longer. This year alone, we've celebrated milestones for team members for 7810 and eleven years. At Bright Local, we've been going 14 years and I think our average sort of tenure is four years and climbing. Now a huge part of that down to people getting the culture right, being consistent and bringing in people whose own individual sort of personalities match that culture 100%.

And it sounds like it's working right. Unfortunately, we are going to have to take a short break. But yeah, it's been really interesting to hear the importance and how it's working and it is working at Bright Local with everything that you've achieved and what you've just shared just then. So let's take a short break and then when we're back with part two, we'll be talking about more about company culture, but more towards how it helps when you've got crisis and you need to lead through a crisis. So yes, join us back for part two. We are back for part two. Thank you for joining us again. So, yes. So we've already delved into company culture, why it's important and obviously Bright Local have shared well, Claire and Myles have shared experiences and how that works. So another loaded question for you, Myles how does company culture help during a crisis?

It's a great question and I guess to give it some context, in the 14 years we've been going, I would say we've probably been through four moments that I would consider to be kind of an existential crisis for the business. The first two happened to involve Google making some fairly tectonic changes to their own kind of algorithms, their own platform that affected us. But the two that are probably most sort of broad reaching and in people's minds is obviously when COVID hit and how that radically changed the way that we work as a business, whether we would actually still even be in business at that time. And then as Iuded to earlier, we have an office in Ukraine. We've been working with Ukrainian software engineers for about ten years and so, obviously the war in Ukraine, which is still raging on and causing huge amounts of pain and suffering to a whole nation as well as our team is probably the two kind of key crises that I've witnessed our culture carry us through. And I think it's absolutely essential when times are good, when it's all going well and the sun is shining and growth seems easy. It's quite easy to make pledges and promises about a culture, and you make kind of commitments to team. And when it's all going well, it's quite easy to do that. But when struggles really hit, that's when your culture is truly tested. And can you stand up and be true to those commitments that you made in the good times? And can your kind of culture carry you through? I'd always wondered how good we were, actually, until the crisis hit, because you never really know until you're properly tested. And we were absolutely tested in those two moments, so COVID obviously we were a five day a week in the office sort of organization prior to that and suddenly we were all at home and so we had to find new ways of working, communicating, dealing with the various sort of challenges. And the team really rallied round, they wanted to make it work and assimilately with the kind of war in Ukraine. Our team were scattered out of keef at a moment's notice and popped up in different parts of Europe, different parts of western Ukraine, and actually, it took us about two weeks to get back to sort of anything like sort of full velocity in terms of our development. It was actually amazingly quick in terms of our team members lives and going tight end on their heads, and they were living in an incredibly stressful environment. But they wanted to work because it gave them a distraction from the news cycle. And they wanted to help bright local work because in a symbiotic relationship, if bright local was successful and it kept flourishing, they had jobs that would keep money coming in during a time of incredible, incredible uncertainty. And so having a strong culture, I think, in a time of crisis is so important because it's when you need your team members to want the business to succeed you and your team members to want to collaborate with each other, to want to stay in communication, and to see the business through the troubling times that we've got. And so I think it's actually so much more important in a time of crisis that you have that strong culture to really fall back on. And I'm very glad to say that we've kind of come through those two particular moments in relative health.

Yes, thank you for sharing that and being so open because I think when you find yourself at a crisis, whatever that crisis is, things like a company culture and having a healthy or a structured company culture really goes a long way and it helps so much, doesn't it? It's not one of these nice to have or a fluffy term, it's like, no, this is important, we need it. Claire, would you like to add anything?

I think so. I think the, the crisis part, I mean, the, the biggest one that I have ever experienced in terms of company culture is probably, again, living and working through COVID. So at the time I was just purely self employed as Claire Carlile Marketing and had chosen to put all of my eggs into the tourism and hospitality basket. So 100% of my clients were within those sectors. So, like pretty much within the first week, I was down to 10% of my monthly income. So I guess my company culture at the time previously had been and did stand me in good stead, which was do good work with good people that are authentic and care about stuff. And I know that sounds really oh, God, everyone has that, but they don't all really have it. And so I think that the nicest thing that happened to me during COVID was someone helping me put together a tweet which said a little bit about what I did and that I was open for work. And it got so many retweets and all these people came to me to offer me work, even if it was just a day's work here and there. They didn't really need that work, some of them, but they actually did it. And I said, yeah, I'll do that little tiny bit of consultancy for you. And that for me, was what kept me going through COVID. And that for me was also what allowed me to springboard into where I am now, the customers I have, the people that I work with. My relationship with Bright Local very much came from that time when I did my first course in the Academy and that was my main opportunity within that time, was actually writing and then presenting that course. Yeah, so for me, that's the biggest thing. And so I do give myself a little pat on the back just for having a good company coach internally, which was just based around be nice, but not in that sort of be nice, be nice, but just I had people that cared about me and that thought I did a good job, and they helped.

They looked after me basically 100%. And it is a big pat on the back end. It's relationships at the end of the day, isn't it? They're important and it all kind of feeds into what we're talking about about today time. I always say this on every episode, time is flying.

Yeah, but you really mean it on this episode.

We joked, but you're coming back for another duo, it's got to happen. We can talk about so many different things, but yes, right, so my next question, Myles key takeaway from today's episode key takeaway.

So I think it would firstly to be really clear what you want your culture to be as early on as possible and then be really consistent so that your team know how to behave and what to expect. I'd also say that some people I talk to you say building up a healthy culture involves sort of handing out lots of sort of benefits and perks and that's expensive and I just want people to do a job and I pay them, that should be enough. And I think my message to them is it does take time to build a strong culture. And yes, it does cost a little bit more upfront to kind of give people a great work experience because you have to invest to kind of create that experience. But it pays off enormously, enormously over time, from everything through to easier recruitment through to kind of longer retention and all the various kind of costs that kind of go along with that. And you will never be happier than when you're facing a crisis that all businesses do. When you've got a really strong culture to fall back on, you'll be so glad you made that investment in building that culture.

100% agree. And I will just say that I will make sure, because there is an article on Bright local's website that you wrote about leading through crisis. So I'll make sure that that link is in this episode, show notes and then people can carry on reading because it's really important. It's really hard to cover such an important topic in a short space of time. So, yeah, go and check out that resource. We always ask every guest. And Claire, this is your question. What is the best career advice you've ever received?

It's the career advice I'd give myself. Is that allowed anything go as it's you claim?

Yes. Personal? Yeah.

Okay. I'll just pretend that someone else gave it to me. This is what I sort of did someone give it to me. I read it in a book. Career advice, well, it changes, doesn't it? So it depends where you are and what you're doing. But the interesting thing for me about jobs and career and what you need to choose and what you need to be is this idea that you've got three circles and is that a Venn diagram? So you've got here the things that you're good at. Okay. The things that you're good at, one circle. The second one is the things that bring you joy because obviously it would be nice. You could be very good at something, but you hate it so much. And the third thing is what you want to get back from it. So a lot of people think about it in terms of what is money, what is success, in terms of could it be how much you're paid? But really it comes down to how much free time do you want, how. Much do you want to work? How much money? What is your thing, what do you need out of those things? And then you try and find some little sweet spot where those three things intersect. And for me, I think just having a clear idea of that will help you shape your journey on your career path, which you are free and welcome to change at any time. I think that's one of the things is we get quite fixed on it being a very linear thing. It isn't linear because what we want out of it could change year by year. And also success looks like something very different to different people. So being clear on what success looks like to you at that point in time is important.

I think that is fabulous advice, Claire, and I'm glad.

Thank you.

Yes. Gold star. Gold star.

Thank you.

Great to share with our audience another question that we also ask is recommending, if you could each recommend one person that our audience should be following in the SEO industry.

Claire, why don't you go first?

I can't because it depends what you're focusing. No, well, obviously a reach, isn't it? I mean, it's a reach.

It is a hard question. It is a hard question. Yes. And there's loads of fabulous people out there, but yes, we love a rege is a great choice. So, yes, we'll make sure that we include links to a region in the show notes.

If it's okay by you, Sarah, I'm going to sort of break the rule and tell you who my two biggest influences in culture.

Yes, do it.

First one is very well known, Simon Sinnick, who I thought I learned a lot about how businesses could be run from him and how you don't have to run them like just kind of commercial beasts. There is a deep opportunity to be incredibly human and humane with how you run your organization, so I thank him for that. And another chap called Patrick Lencioni, who's another great sort of writer around leadership, writes lots of leadership fables that have also taught me lots of lessons about how I want to have an impact as a leader that goes beyond just making money. How do I want to have an impact on the lives of the people who give up so much time and effort working for bright local and then their families and the wider communities in which we work? I found both their books or their various books and talks both inspiring, but also practical and easy to apply.

Wonderful. I make sure that I'll include links of some sort to those people as well. And then, yes, obviously I'll include your social handles and website link in the show notes, but how best can people reach out to you? And let's go with Claire first.

On the Twitter at @ClaireCarlile.

I would say just email me at myles@brightlocal.com.

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Right, I'm very sad to say this, but that is the end of this week's episode, so thank you. I know we all need to do a side together, but thank you, both of you, for joining me. And yeah, talking about something that was quite heavy, but it was good. It was a good discussion and I'm glad that we had this time and space to talk about it. So thank you very much.

Sarah, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for having us on.

Thank you for having us.

Wonderful, right? And yes. And until next time to our listeners, take care of yourself.