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Anja is the founder of Bitvocation, a platform launched in 2023 to empower Bitcoiners to leave fiat-driven careers behind and thrive in the Bitcoin ecosystem. With a solid background in Operations Management, Anja has worked with top Bitcoin-focused projects like the Exodus wallet and Fountain podcast app. She’s passionate about helping job seekers navigate the Bitcoin space and connecting innovative Bitcoin companies with exceptional talent.

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Mentioned in this episode:

Strong Wealth: Wealth Management for Bitcoiners, by Bitcoiners

Velas Commerce: Biz Tech Meets Bitcoin

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The reason why I started this is because I noticed how many recruiters look outside of our community in order to fill bitcoiner jobs.

And on the other hand, you have all these bitcoiners who want to work in bitcoin and can't find a job.

So I thought, there is something wrong, and we need to bring those two parties together.

I always say every role that we are used to from the traditional fiat world is available in bitcoin too, except the role of central banker, of course.

Welcome to the Business Bitcoinization show, the show dedicated to helping you enrich your life and grow your business with bitcoin, the hardest money on planet earth.

I'm your host, Josh Friedman, and our guest today is Anya shoots of bit vocation.

Anya helps people find jobs in the bitcoin ecosystem.

And today we're gonna be talking about what you need to be doing, who you need to be talking to, and where you need to be spending your time in order to get that job.

We're going to get to our interview with Anya right after this.

Anya, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Joshua.

It's really nice to meet you.

So I like to start off every single interview with a few questions that help us to get to know you a little bit better and give us some insight for our own lives.

Are you ready for these?

Yeah.

Let's do it.

Question number one.

Is this, when and how did you first learn about bitcoin?

And I ignored it, like many of us.

And because it had nothing to do with me, I saw it on a sticker of a door.

Bitcoin accepted here, and I thought, it's nerd money for gamers or something.

And that's when I heard about bitcoin again.

And this time, I took it seriously and was motivated to study it.

So I found it twice, like many of us.

Yeah.

Question number two.

What's an insight or fact about bitcoin that you wish everyone understood?

Yeah.

That scarcity creates abundance.

I think that is something that escapes most people.

And I hang out, or I have been hanging out for a long time in the community that cares a lot about abundance and tries to manifest abundance, and if they would just look into money a little bit more and how it works and how an abundance of money creates the opposite of abundance in life, that would be really good.

So I think it's important to understand our current fiat money first in order to really have insights about bitcoin.

Question number three, what's the bitcoin resource you must recommend to other people?

I think it's still Andreas Antonopoulos.

So he is still the person that it depends on who it is, because, of course, we have many more public people and good teachers out there now, but I think for my friends or women or who are similar to me, he is still the number one educator, I think.

Question number four, beyond bitcoin, what's a resource tool or idea that's been helpful to you or your work recently?

AI, of course, not chat GPT, because it's taking all of our data, but there's this new one called Venice AI, and that is what I've started to use because it's decentralized and only stores all my prompts in the browser, and that's been really helpful.

I use it every day.

Yes.

And so what are some of the things you use it for?

It's been a while since that was mentioned.

You know, as soon as chat GPT was released, that was a common answer on this show.

A few other people have said that across the last year, year and a half, two years.

But I am sort of curious to know, what are the most helpful things for you when it comes to using AI?

It's content creation.

Like as a business owner, you know, we have to create a lot of content, and whether it's LinkedIn post or a newsletter or an image for a landing page or whatever, it's just so fast.

And I still write because I love writing.

I have a creative mind, so I like to write myself, but then I pop it into Venice and I'm like, can you please proofread or make this a little bit better or catchy or just put emojis for a LinkedIn post or whatever.

Yeah, it's very helpful for productivity.

Now we have our final, what we call our arbitrary but insightful question, and it's this.

As a general life principle, is it better to ask why or why not?

This is such a great question.

I would say both.

Because there is balance in life, and why is a question that makes you think deeply about things.

I think, but why not?

Is something that just lightens up the mood.

If you are trying to make a decision and then someone says, oh, why not?

Or why not?

Both.

Yeah.

They have different energies and I want both questions in my life.

Well, anya, we're here today to talk about your project, bit vocation.

If you would just lay it out for us.

What's the goal behind bitvocation?

And how long have you been at this work?

Yeah, so bit vocation started pretty much exactly a year ago when I noticed how many bitcoiners want to work in bitcoin and I, they just don't know how, how to start.

They think, oh, I have to be a developer in order to work in bitcoin.

And yeah, I've been working in the industry for.

Yeah, for five or six years.

So I know how this industry works.

And I was really looking for a way to be of service to the bitcoin community and I realized, oh, that's how I can help.

So bitvocation aims to connect bitcoin companies with talent in the bitcoin community.

Not so much as a recruitment agency, though.

Who knows?

This might change in the future.

But that was not the initial goal, but more in terms of efficiency and maybe automation and just helping both parties find each other.

So how we started was with the bit vocation feed on Telegram, which basically just posts all the bitcoin only jobs out there in a nice feed that every bitcoiner can just subscribe to.

And, yeah, instead of checking all the careers pages linked in all the bitcoiner job boards, they can just get it all in a feed.

That's how we started.

In the meantime, we've also been asked by companies if we have something similar the other way around.

Like do we have a feed of job candidates that companies can tap into?

So there's a lot happening in the background.

Now, the reason why I started this is because I noticed how many recruiters look outside of our community in order to fill bitcoiner jobs.

And on the other hand, you have all these bitcoiners who want to work in bitcoin and can't find a job.

So I thought, there is something wrong and we need to bring those two parties together.

So that is the whole goal of bit vocation.

Yeah.

So I'm curious to know a little bit about your and kind of, kind of some of the things that you've seen a need for based on your past work.

You said you've been working in maybe the bitcoin ecosystem across the last five or six years.

What are some of the things that companies tend to need the most, both skill wise?

I mean, I'm thinking technical skill wise, but also just the types of people that work well in a lot of these roles.

So I think developers definitely are a big part of it.

We have now data that it's actually just less than half of the jobs are developer jobs, which was even surprising to us because like just common sense wise.

So the bitcoin job market works differently in a bear market than in a bull market.

So in a bear market, teams are building and who is building projects?

The developers.

So in a bear market, you would expect more jobs for developers to be out there.

In a bull market, when teams have more money, then they can afford all the other to fill all the other roles.

And that is all the non tech roles that can help the business grow and scale.

Marketing, maybe proper HR processes, customer support, especially customer support.

In a bull market, when you have tons of new people coming in, because people just hear about bitcoin and everything, customer service teams get just tons more tickets.

So like times ten, so they have to staff up also.

So that is what's important to know.

And yeah, I always say every role that we are used to from the traditional fiat world is available in bitcoin too, except the role of central banker.

Of course, all the other jobs are there as well.

And yeah, and we now actually also have the data to, we've been collecting data for over a year since we started scraping and it's very interesting to see, to back up the things that I thought I was seeing.

We can back this up with data now.

So we are publishing this on our substack.

We have published them twice now.

We will do this monthly, so everybody's welcome to look at more details over there.

I'm curious to understand, you mentioned the dynamic between the bull and the bear market and bitcoiners who have held the asset for a while, definitely understand that dynamic.

When it comes to the job market though, do these bull market hires the customer success people, other non technical jobs, do those essentially become seasonal jobs or are these something that once you join a team in a bull market, when the bear market comes back around, which we're pretty sure it will for a while longer here, then will you still have a job?

Or is it one of those things that working for a company that has this seasonality, you don't have nearly the assurances you would in a more traditional role?

Yeah, very, very, very important point.

If you want job security, don't work in bitcoin.

So this is a reality of not just bitcoin, but also a new industry that is just, that is made up of 90% startups.

Like even forgetting about bitcoin, not every startup makes it in bitcoin.

We have this four year cycle or maybe the bull market only like 18 months or something.

So that is absolutely a reality that, yes, you may have a job in bull market, and then if teams are not able to manage their money properly, which is also reality, then, yeah, you may lose your job.

Again, it is a reality even, I mean, we just saw Swan, you know, like, even as established companies where you think, wow, you know, they have funding and everything, even there it can happen that half of the stuff is being laid off.

So that is a reality.

So, yeah, that's why I'm always saying don't.

Because many people want to leave their fiat jobs, of course, and move into bitcoin.

But if security and stability is important to you, if you have a family to feed, think twice and you can be the bitcoiner in your fiat job.

It's also an important role for everyone else where freedom and a meaningful job is more important than the security or they can afford to make it more important.

Well, yeah, then bitcoin is definitely the right place.

So I guess to that point, I'd be interested to know, once you have a job at a bitcoin company, let's say that for some reason you or let go, how much easier, or is it easier for someone who has already had a bitcoin job to get a job with another bitcoin company?

I think so.

Because proof of work.

Yeah.

So of course, if you already had, I believe finding your second job in bitcoin is easier than finding your first one.

On the other hand, most bitcoiners, even if they haven't had a proper first job already, they have done their proof of work, or they're doing it every day.

You are doing a podcast.

I used to write a lot.

Other people run meetups or bitcoin walks, or, I mean, every bitcoiner, every true bitcoiner has this desire to contribute to the network in some shape or form.

And whether they create content or contribute code or do other things and educate people, every bitcoiner usually already has a proof of work.

And all they need to do is to show that.

So that is also something that I teach in one of our little groups, how to become findable, how to become recognizable as a bitcoiner online and mainly on LinkedIn.

Unfortunately, we may note, I love LinkedIn, but this is still the number one place where recruiters source candidates.

So that's why if you're serious about finding a job in bitcoin, make sure that on LinkedIn, you at least have the word bitcoin somewhere in your profile.

I would do a little bit more.

So this is all.

Yeah, I have a little program for this where I teach this to people.

Some people may have reasons why they don't want to be visible on LinkedIn, but if you can do it, this is the best way to passively generate leads of jobs and be found.

What's your tagline?

Because on LinkedIn, people can add different lines about what they do.

Is yours?

It's something like stacksats or something like that.

I know other people have that.

Do you remember what yours is on LinkedIn?

No, I think I just put bitco, founder of bit vocation.

I mean, yeah, founder, bit vocation.

But you can use your pronouns.

My pronouns are BTC and Hodler.

There it is.

Yeah.

I've seen people doing similar types of things like that, and I think that's a good.

A good reminder.

I feel like you go through phases of life where LinkedIn feels more and less relevant, but especially for people looking for jobs, I think a lot of people would imagine that Twitter's the place to be.

So it's interesting to hear you say LinkedIn, and hopefully that'll be kind of a bit of a wake up call for some people.

Yeah.

So I've spoken to many recruiters over the last year, of course, for research reasons, they are all on LinkedIn, is the first address where they look.

Some of them are really active on Noster.

So I would advise people to go on Noster and also teach themselves how Noster works and not just hang out on Twitter.

I don't know.

Twitter is.

I don't know if it's still the first address.

Maybe for some, but yeah, I would concentrate on Noster and LinkedIn, depending for the non technical people, I think it's also easier to show their skills and content, values, beliefs, or everything on LinkedIn in short posts every day.

Twitter maybe also, but the recruiters hang out on LinkedIn.

Well, it's cool to hear that you provide some support and guidance for that.

I think that's very valuable.

One of the other things I'm curious to know is the disposition of people that either bitcoin companies are looking for or that tend to end up getting jobs with bitcoin companies.

How is it.

How.

How is that person's disposition maybe different than people working in fiat jobs?

Is it as simple as some certain characteristics, maybe other than being okay with being further out on the risk spectrum?

Or is it too all over the map to be able to say anything very definitively so.

I think one really important characteristic of a bitcoiner is the entrepreneurial mindset, even if you don't want to be an entrepreneur.

But just finding a job is an entrepreneurial endeavor.

In bitcoin, you need to do things differently.

You need to know how to network or you need to build your network.

That's something that employees in the fiat world don't.

Consider that this an entrepreneurial thing, and you need to have a proof of work, and you need to be able to market yourself and, yeah, show that proof of work so that you can be found.

This is something that in the fiat world, only entrepreneurs do that are selling a product or their services.

But this is how you get ahead of the curve.

This is new skills.

And if you come with a fiat mindset into the bitcoin world, you will not be successful.

And I speak to a lot of job seekers and they tell me, oh, yeah, I keep getting rejected or they don't even get back to me.

But what are you doing?

Oh, yeah, I just click, apply, apply on LinkedIn.

Nobody sees.

I mean, you need to write your cv differently.

You need to forget, actually, forget about the cv.

That's a whole other topic that I think is not even needed in bitcoin.

But make your link.

Honestly, the LinkedIn is the most underutilized thing by bitcoiners in this space.

That is your sales page for your skills if you want to be found.

And that is something that an employee doesn't think like this.

But I think bitcoiners are much more open to adopt this mindset.

Now, one of the terms we've both used in the course of this interview is fiat job.

I think you've also just said fiat mindset.

Could you explain to someone listening, you know, if.

If it's all bitcoiners listening right now, they'll probably all understand what we're saying.

But if someone else is listening to this, they might not understand what you mean by that.

So could you explain a little bit what you mean by fiat job?

Fiat mindset, fiat whatever else.

Yeah.

Thanks for asking this.

So, to me, the bitcoiner mindset is the proof of work.

The fiat mindset is you can get rewards without doing the work.

You know, like, you get a paycheck at the end of the month in a fiat job, whether you did a good job or not, in many cases, you just sit there from nine to five and do something.

But are you actually creating value?

Yeah.

In bitcoin, you can only reap rewards if you have created value first, if you have proved the work, the proof that you did the work.

So that is the, to me, that is the fiat versus bitcoin mindset.

And fiat jobs, of course, are just jobs in the traditional work that in the traditional world that are not part of bitcoin.

So if someone is interested in finding a job in the bitcoin space, what are some of the services you provide?

How can you help people?

What would be some of those next steps that people could take if they've listened to this and still feel very optimistic about their desire to work in the bitcoin ecosystem?

Yeah, so the first address, well, there are two first addresses.

One is our telegram feed.

People can just type bit vocation feed in telegram and subscribe to the free channel.

And basically they will see all the jobs coming in every day that we are scraping.

And the other address I would send them to is our substack.

So we will have a website soon, bitvocation.com.

if you type it in right now, it should lead to our substack.

Maybe we can put the link below.

So it's bitvocation dot substack.com right now.

And there we have a free guide, like how to find your first job in bitcoin, which covers a lot of the things that we just talked about and a little bit more in detail.

And, yeah, we are also going to launch some other services in the very near future for people who want a little bit more help and support.

So whether it's connected to bit vocation or something else entirely, do you have any final thoughts you want to share with the audience before we finish up the interview?

Yeah, I just.

I want everybody to, every bitcoiner who wants to work in bitcoin, I think helps this baby grow.

We all want bitcoin to be successful.

So whether we can help companies find the talent in the space or we need to bring fiat people who are still fiat people, and orange peel them, let's just all do whatever it takes to make this grow, because it's our only.

Well, it's the only way to fix the world, right?

I truly believe that, yeah.

In addition to the substack and probably your LinkedIn, are there other places you'd like for people to go if they want to follow up with you?

Yeah, I'm on Twitter and on Noster.

I'm trying to be more active on Noster Connect.

Economy is my handle pretty much everywhere.

And we have a link tree.

I don't know if maybe we can put this below where we have all our links because we are still in the process of building.

They often change so we keep track in this link tree with all the latest addresses.

Great.

Well, anya, thank you so much for your time today.

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you so much.

Joshua.

Well friends, this is a wrap.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the business bitcoinization show.

If you want to reach out to either me or Anya, you can find those links down in the show notes.

And if you or someone you know is looking for a job in the bitcoin ecosystem, remember, bit vocation as always.

Keep building, keep growing, and until next time, keep living and leading.

I don't know what you were testing.

I hope all is well and thanks for the SATs.

If you would like to support the show, you can listen on the fountain app and either stream sats as you listen or send a boost, and if you include a note with that boost, I'll be sure to read it on the show.