The core of this chapter revolves around the profound notion of "learning to be someone they will never know," which reflects the transformative journey individuals embark upon following the loss of a significant person in their lives. We delve into the complexities of grief, acknowledging the inevitable changes that accompany such loss and the challenge of reconciling one's evolving identity with the absence of that loved one. In conjunction with this theme, we explore the poignant acceptance of how life can still hold goodness in the absence of those we mourn. This acceptance does not diminish the void left behind but rather invites an exploration of gratitude and growth amidst the sorrow. Ultimately, we engage in a candid discussion about the intricacies of navigating grief, emphasizing the importance of connection and dialogue in this shared human experience.

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Sponsorship for The Upside to Grief

Mady's Tattoos Madys tattoos is based out of mission beach California where She specializes in Japanese traditional , black and grey , photography, art, and media. Mady believes that tattoos can be more than art, they are milestones, memories, and reminders of how far you’ve come. To learn more or book a session you can find her on instagram at madys_tattoos. Azadi Healing Azadi — which is FARSI for freedom — empowers individuals and communities through trauma-informed care and events such as nervous system regulation, reiki, sound healing, breathwork facilitation and more. Whether you're exploring healing or navigating grief, Azadi Healing offers a sacred space to come home to yourself and find your center. Remember that you’re never alone on this journey. Visit azadihealing.com

Hello, human collective.

Welcome to the Upside to Grief.

My name is Story and I am your host.

And my name is Erica and I'm your co host.

Welcome to Chapter Six.

Chapter six.

Chapter six.

Yes.

So today we're gonna just discuss a couple griefy topics.

Yep.

It's just me and Story.

So we're.

We're gonna do our thing and have some conversations about grief and maybe some of the conversations that we usually don't want to admit to or face.

I feel like.

I feel like we do that a lot.

And it's really cool that we do that naturally with each other.

Talk about the things that we usually.

I don't know, I wouldn't just go up to anybody and be like, hey, have you thought about this aspect of grief?

With a smile on my face.

I feel like I can do that with you.

And then we actually, like, get to process it and talk about it, and then we realize we're not alone.

Yeah.

Yes.

It is nice.

It's nice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Today we are choosing some pretty heavy topics.

I believe that is heavy.

I think they are, too.

I mean, we were just talking about it earlier with, like.

Yes.

So right before we started recording this, we were discussing what we were going to talk about, and it was like, big sigh, not a big breath.

They were like, okay, let's do this.

So anyways, let's do this.

Let's fucking go.

Let's go.

So we're going to talk about.

One of the things we're going to talk about is learning how to be somebody that your person will never know.

Because for a lot of people, grief drastically changes you and you become like a different person.

Yeah.

And so really, you are just.

You have to, like, learn yourself, like, and then try to be okay with it, you know?

Yeah.

And can you say that one more time?

Like, learning to be somebody that they will never know.

Learning to be somebody that they will never know.

I just feel like when you said that to me the first time, I was just like, feels like a punch in the stomach.

Learning to be somebody that they will never know.

And I got that from you.

Actually.

Really funny, crazy.

I wonder where I got that from.

I got it from you.

What happened when was this was after we recorded Chapter One and you sent me a song on your way home after we got done recording.

You, like, sent me a song right away, and I turned it on.

And it's like one of the lines in the song says, learning to be someone they will never know.

And then I was like, yes.

Oh, I got chills.

Just thinking about that.

Yeah.

That was Alex Warren, I believe.

Yeah, I think so.

You know what's really funny?

He's actually from North County, San Diego.

Yeah.

And he has a lot of loss and grief in his life, so it's interesting.

I didn't know that about him.

I think, like, a popular song of his came on by Spotify, and then I was just listening, and then one of the lyrics in his songs said that he was from Carlsbad or something.

You were like, oh, okay.

I was like, wait, what?

So I looked into it a little bit.

I was like, holy shit.

Like, this is why, like, I can connect with that music because, like, he went through a lot of grief, and he's very open about it, too, so I thought that was cool.

And then I kind of, like, read a little bit more about him.

Not, like, too deep, but I was like, okay, I can.

With this human.

And.

Yeah, I know.

I know the song you're talking about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was weird because when I sent you that song, that album had just.

Just been released, so I was just like.

I just turned it on and just crying on my way home after our podcast, and I'm like, I need to send this story right now and literally.

Listen to it and started crying.

Yeah, but it's a. Yeah, it's like one of those things that you don't want to say out loud.

Learning to be somebody that they will never know.

And I feel.

I feel pain and sadness and anger when I hear that.

Yeah, I feel sad right now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, where do we start with that?

I feel like one of the biggest ones that again, after we recorded Chapter one, I remember how we both had, like, drastically different feelings and reactions.

You felt relief, and I started, like, fucking crying because I was like, the reason we're even doing this because my dad is dead and Ken is gone, and I'm just crying and stories over here.

Like, I was like, okay, yeah, let it happen.

Yeah, we're doing this.

Yeah.

What was interesting is I said fuck.

And you're like, yeah, that's what you said.

You were like, no, let it out.

Don't let that fuck, like, stop you.

Because I feel like a lot of the times we say that, like, even when we were just saying that just now, the learning to be somebody that will never know, and we kind of.

Just like, have this block, like, put a wall up there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's hard.

It's very tangible right now, actually.

Like, I don't feel a very big doorway opening right now.

It's a block in my mind because I fucking hate it.

Yep.

I feel exactly what you're saying right now.

The goosebumps.

Yeah.

And I think that's a really good way to talk about it too, though, because it's not like we can just pull this out and start talking super happily and freely about it.

I feel like there's this block.

We're both feeling it and part of getting to the other side.

So tell us what the other part was that you wanted to talk about really quick, because I feel like this is the other side of that wall.

Oh, yeah.

It is the other side of the wall.

Really?

Accepting how good your life is without that person here.

Dude, I got chills.

Accepting how good your life is without.

That person here is literally.

It's on the other side of the wall.

But they're both still just so fucked.

Yeah.

Even.

Even if there is that, like, acceptance of how good your life is now, there's still the without them part.

Yeah.

That never goes away.

Yeah.

And that wall, I don't think it ever comes.

Well, for me right now in my journey with grief and where I'm at in life and my belief systems, that wall is not down.

No.

And I think I just avoid that wall.

I think I climb over it occasionally, like, hop back and forth, maybe, or I sit on top of the wall and I look at both sides or something.

You know, my thing with visualizations, that's what I'm imagining.

Like, sitting, like, straddling on the wall, looking at the side where I have to learn how to live and become somebody that my dad will never know.

And then I look on the other side, and I'm so fucking proud of the person that I am.

And I'm so grateful for my experiences.

Like, I feel like only certain people will understand this, but I just.

One of my belief systems about losing my dad is that it was, like, the best and worst thing that ever happened to me.

Like, I feel the same way about losing Ken.

Yeah.

Not everybody can say that.

No.

And I don't expect everybody to either.

I just know that that's my story with grief, and that's your story with grief.

And.

Yeah.

I feel like I just straddle the wall and look at both sides, but there's the wall, the block, and.

Yeah.

I wonder what that means.

I wonder what that means.

Feeling that block, both of us feeling that block.

So, like, we can already.

We're already feeling that.

That's a commonality, and we're not alone there.

So that's kind of cool.

I'm not alone in the awful pain.

Hmm.

Well, because I think when you are exploring this topic, it's like.

It's.

It's, like, sad.

It's a sad one, because, like, learning to be somebody that they'll never know, it's just.

I don't know.

It's like this slap in the face of, like, they're not here, you know?

I don't know.

And it's like, do I try to focus on just the other part?

I don't know if it's possible.

I don't know.

And you can say what you want in this general.

You.

You can say what you want about, like, how, you know that person's always with you.

They're.

They are seeing the person that you're becoming.

But we're not talking about that.

We're talking physical.

Yes.

That we could have had experiences with that.

The stuff that we're doing right now.

We could have, like.

They could have held our hand through it, you know, like that physical embodiment, the attachment.

Mm.

This is, like, super random, but it just popped into my head.

So I have this, and I shared about it in chapter one, about the rosary that I have that Ken gave me.

That was the last thing that he gave me, which is super weird.

Not weird, but, like.

I mean, it is for me because we're not religious, so it's very not weird, but it's just strange that that is what he gave me, and then that's the last thing that he gave me.

And I sleep with it in my hand every single night.

Every single night.

It's like.

I don't know if that's, like, unhealthy or if that's okay or whatever, but I'm just.

I don't know.

It just is what it is.

And one time I left it somewhere on accident, and it was not a great night.

I did not sleep well, and I had the worst anxiety.

But.

So the other night.

But when that happened, that was like.

When I.

When I didn't have it with me, that was.

That was like a year or so ago, more than a year ago.

Two Christmases ago, because I was living in Oceanside.

And I remember when it happened, and then.

Since then, that hasn't happened.

And it happened.

Not that I didn't lose it, but I couldn't find it for, like, a minute.

And so I was like, sometimes I'll fall asleep.

Like, I'll be tired, but I'll know that it's sitting right there, and I'll be like, okay, it's fine.

And, like, sometimes I'll allow myself to go to bed without it in my hand because I know it's right there.

But it was just like, maybe two weeks ago.

And I was like, it wasn't sitting in any of the places it normally sits.

And so I was like, I have to get up and look for it.

Like, I can't.

I can't go to.

I can't go to bed.

I don't know where it is.

And so then I was looking everywhere, and I was, like, pulling my bed out and, like, looking with my flashlight and all that.

And then I'm, like, starting to panic, and I ended up finding it.

It was in the sweatpants that I wore the night before to bed.

It was in the pocket.

And so when I found it, it was just like this, like.

Like, you know, but then I felt this, like, almost like.

I don't know if it's guilt, but I felt.

I felt some type of way towards myself a little bit when that happened.

Like, almost like I was shaming myself where I was, like.

Because then my heartbeat was going, my anxiety was up.

I was no longer, like, ready to fall asleep.

Like, I think I laid back down and, like, started doing box breathing, like, for like, a hot minute before I actually went to bed.

And then I was like, what the.

Like, it's not.

It's.

It's just a necklace.

Like, it's a material thing.

Like, I don't know.

And so maybe there was, like, this little bit of shame of, like, wow, okay.

Like, I don't know.

Like, you're in year three and, like, you almost just had a panic attack because of this necklace.

And it, like, completely just.

It completely threw my nervous system out of whack, like, in a second because of that.

And so then I was like, is that normal?

Is that okay?

Like, should I not be, like, clinging on to that still?

Like, I don't know.

I just felt all types of way about it and.

And I never came to a conclusion or a solution or an answer.

I just did box breathing until I fell asleep.

But, yeah, I don't know.

I don't know how to feel about that stuff.

Like, is it an unhealthy attachment?

Is that normal?

I think you get to be the judge of that.

I don't think anybody else gets to make judgments about that kind of stuff because on one hand, this has sentimental value to you and there's a memory attached to it.

And I feel like our memories are very powerful things.

And on the other hand, if attachment felt like Something wrong to you?

Because, you know, there are some practices, spiritual practices or disciplines where, you know, you release attachment.

Buddhism is a perfect example where you learn how to release your attachments.

And if you felt some kind of way or felt shame for having an attachment, then there are things that you could do.

But I don't think it's a problem that needs to be solved.

Yeah, no, no.

Yeah.

It's not a problem that needs to be solved.

It's just like, I'm very much in that whole, like, you're more powerful and you're letting go than you're holding on type of, like, thing.

And I believe that.

But I think it was more or less just the fact that.

How quickly it changed my every feeling in my body where I was like, fuck.

Like, just that little one little thing.

Like, it was like my.

The way that my nervous system reacted was like it was the end of the fucking world, which it wasn't the end of the world.

I've done way harder things, but my nervous system was like, it's the end of the world.

And that felt not good.

And then I was like, okay.

So I guess maybe what it is is that when there are things that cause my nervous system to react like that, I feel like I assess those situations, and I'm like, do I need that in my life?

And usually the answer is no.

If it's hijacking my nervous system or creating this reaction that feels very uncontrollable, I don't like that.

Right.

Because I'm very much like, you can't control most of the things going on around you, but you can control the way you react to it.

And so, like, that situation was completely out of my control, and that's how it felt.

And so then I'm like, what the fuck?

You know?

But I can't, like, compare it to other things like that, because I feel like the other things that throw my nervous system out of Whack.

Toxic.

Yeah.

Bad behavior from yourself or other people.

You know, the.

Yeah, those things that are more like, okay, yeah.

Nope.

Not on the same playing field.

Yeah.

But it just felt very.

I think that's why my brain went that way, because normally it's like, okay, this is happening.

This is what I do next.

You know?

And then it's like, this is happening, but it's not the same.

So then we just breathe.

Yeah, you breathe.

You give yourself a hug, whether literally or visualizing yourself getting a hug.

Mm.

Yeah.

Again, when we were recording the first chapter, do you remember I brought my dad's ashes.

And I was wearing pants with no pockets.

And I put them right here because I just have like a small, little, tiny bit of my dad's ashes.

And I brought him here because I just wanted him to be a part of this because in a shitty way, like he was.

He's the reason, you know?

And I went to the bathroom and I came back inside and I was.

Like.

My dad's ashes are not right there again.

And I can't remember if I looked at you first.

And I was like, you did?

Yeah.

I was like, I think I flushed my dad's ashes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The concern was that they went down the toilet and that you were like, I'm gonna go.

And I was just like, yep.

So I had a moment like that where very quickly, in my head I had like, this all played out, like within that second where I was like, you know that shock on my face where I was like, I just fucked up.

I may have flushed my dad's ashes.

If I did, I have to live with that and I have to be okay with that.

Walking back in to record that podcast, I have to like, know that that was the consequence of being so careless.

And I remember thinking that all out in my head and not.

Not even hoping that they were like on the floor or something.

Just like, if that was the consequence of my action.

Cuz I didn't want to spiral, you know, Cuz I would have.

I would have spiraled.

And I was like, okay, I have to accept this before I even go back in that bathroom.

So I did that all in my head and I walked back in the bathroom and they were on the ground.

So, like, yeah, but I remember having that conversation and like that what, five seconds, split second.

You were like immediately like into the solution, which wasn't like a great solution, but you were just kind of like.

Okay, yeah, like this is what I would have to do if that happened.

And in a strange way, I feel like that's how I've done like a lot of my grief, where I'm just.

Where I'm just like.

I face it.

I'm just like, okay, like, yes, this is going to.

This is going to be really fucking hard.

How do I not.

Like it's something to accomplish or defeat or whatever, but like, how do I face this and how do I walk through the fire kind of thing?

So when you say that, that reminds me of like, that feeling was when I.

Cause I was living with other people at the beginning of when Ken passed away.

And so then when I had the means to no longer live with other people.

Like, rent a room from somebody to have my own space.

Yes.

I did it immediately, as soon as I could do it, because I was like, I need to do this.

But I also knew.

And so, let's see.

Ken passed away in July, and I moved in to my own space November 1st.

So August, September, October.

Three and a half months.

So I was about three and a half months in, and then I was like.

I knew making that transition, I was like, this is gonna fucking suck.

But I knew that I had to do it.

And you knew that there was stuff that was gonna come up because you were finally in your own space and you weren't surrounded by having, like, a million roommates.

So much.

Yeah.

Yep.

I did a lot of work in that room by myself.

I wasn't working at the time I was in school, but I wasn't working because I wasn't ready to work yet.

I could not go back to work yet.

I was in school online so that I could step away.

There was a lot of stepping away.

There was a lot of working out.

I remember that we had just met.

That's when we met.

Yeah, that's when we met.

And.

Yeah, because I think it was like, honestly, when we met that night, that Wednesday night, it was probably, like, the first week of November, I want to say.

And I was freaking the fuck out.

And so I called Larisa.

I was like, can you take me somewhere, please?

Yeah, just get me out of my head.

I'm so grateful for her.

She was.

She.

She was around a lot.

In the early stages of my grief when I was living up there.

There was another time that I called her, and I was on the floor in my bathroom.

This is maybe a couple weeks later.

I knew it was.

It's in that November December timeframe, those first two months alone.

It was in there somewhere.

And I was having a panic attack on the bathroom floor.

I got out of the shower.

I was in a towel on the floor, having panic attack.

And then I was getting to the point where, like, in my head, I was like, I should call somebody.

I should call somebody.

And then I wasn't calling anybody.

And then it was getting, like, really intense, and I was like, I should text somebody before I can't text anybody anymore.

Like, my head's like.

When I have panic attacks, it feels like my head turns into, like, a balloon.

And then my sinuses get completely filled up.

It's really crazy.

It'll, like, literally take me to the ground.

And it was like, that it was one of those things.

And so I was on the ground and I text her.

I was like, I need you to come get me.

And I had curfew at the time and it was like 9:45.

And she was like, are you sure?

And I was like, yep, I don't care.

Which norm.

I did care.

I did care, but in that moment, I did not.

And so, yeah, it was like, maybe it was December, but it was during that time it was cold.

I remember that.

And she came and picked me up.

And we went to the ocean at nighttime.

So I think we got to the Ocean at like 10, 20 ish or something like that.

And we went down to the water, like where the playground is right there or whatever.

And like, we're sitting on the swings for a second and then I was like, okay, I'm going to go in the water.

And she's like, are you sure?

I brought a towel with me and I literally got in the ocean with all of my clothes on.

And I thought I was going to be freezing actually, because it was cold outside.

But my nervous system was completely hijacked.

Already in survival mode.

So you're, like, prepared when you enter the cold ass water?

Well, I just didn't know what to do, but I needed to do something.

And so, yeah, I was.

I went in, I had a hoodie on and jeans on.

Like, I just went in fully clothed.

And what's crazy is that, I mean, like, I think it shocked my nervous system.

It made me feel a lot better.

And when I got out, I was actually really warm.

Yeah, I know that feeling very well.

I love that feeling.

Mm.

Your heart was colder than the water.

Just kidding.

Yeah, I remember you being with Larisa a lot up there.

So circling back to the topic that we're dancing around, I think it ties in with, like, so the accepting, like, accepting how good your life is without them there.

I feel like almost like the path that kind of gets you there is for me, at least speaking in terms.

For me, like, I had a really hard time with.

Anytime I would do something that you should be proud of yourself for, like, you should be proud of yourself for doing this.

Like, you know, lots of things and other people are proud of you.

But then it was like, I would be proud of myself.

And then it was like, immediately followed by, like, tears, guilt, shame.

They're not here.

Like, like really drastically too.

Like, I. I think now it's not so intense, but it still happens, like, to this day.

Like, perfect example, when I had the barbecue for my Three years after everybody left, I came into my room and I cried.

Like, it wasn't as intense as it has been in the past, you know, but it still happens.

And I think there's, like, a little piece of accepting how good your life is in there.

Like, learning how to be proud of yourself, learning how to be somebody they don't know.

Like, how do you do that?

You know?

Yeah, that's kind of what I think of.

Yeah.

I feel like acceptance is a huge part of it, because another one of those.

It's not an unhelpful platitude, but it's like the stages of grief.

Like, one of those is acceptance.

And I. I just try and, like, reframe that in my head all the time, because I feel like acceptance has that finality and, like, you're moving on from something, and, you know, we hate that term anyways.

Moving on.

But acceptance is, like, this part.

Acceptance is building a life without them in it.

Acceptance is building a personality or a new you without them in it, because it is a new you.

You can't.

When it's a person that close to you that you do everything with or is such a huge part of your life, you have to become a new person.

You just have to.

And I think that the part where we get to acceptance is just honoring that we can and that we're capable of that.

And part of that kind of hurts for me, because, again, it just brings you back to, well, I wouldn't have to if they weren't dead.

I wouldn't have to if they were still here, but they're not here.

And I want to be proud of me.

And I do want my dad to be proud of me, too.

When you were talking, it reminded me of, like, all the times I've texted my dad or of those moments, like, where I'm like, I am.

He would be so proud of me right now.

And I just text him.

I just text him.

Instead of, like, going down a spiral of, like, thinking, you text your dad all the time.

All the time.

I won't do it.

I don't do it.

I won't, like, message Ken, because.

Because I don't.

I think this was something that started early.

And then I was like, oh, I don't want that, because I think I had, like, tagged him in one of my stories or something on Facebook.

And so then it.

It shows up in your messenger.

So then it goes to the top of your messages.

So then when you open your messages, it's right there.

And so I remember right at the beginning that I was like, I had tagged him in something, and then I was like, oh, I'm not gonna.

Like, I'm not gonna do that again.

Because then I'm like, what if I'm just.

What if I'm doing something and I'm focused and I'm going, And then I.

Somebody sends me a message, and then I open it, but then right underneath it is his name.

You know what I mean?

And then I'm like.

And then it's just gonna fucking throw me sideways.

And I guess I've never circled back.

Yeah, I just.

That's what I would do when he was alive.

I would pick up the phone and tell him.

So it helps me.

I think sometimes I do it in my head, but a lot of the time I pick up the phone, like, it still happens.

Sometimes I'll intentionally, like, look at my phone and be like, I'm text my dad right now.

I miss him.

I want to tell him I miss him.

Or I love him and just text him.

And sometimes it'll literally be like a reflex reaction, like I experiencing happiness, or I just did something really cool, or I got an opportunity and I pick up my phone with the intention of texting him.

Like, I'm gonna text my dad.

And I still do it where I'm like, oh, wait, I can't.

He's not gonna message me back.

And I just do it anyway most of the time.

And sometimes it gets me.

But yeah, I think my mom still has his line open, so I just.

I just utilize it.

I don't know what the fuck happened, but something happened.

He used to have.

My parents still have a house phone.

So on the house phone, the voicemail message was him, like, saying the message.

And I don't know what the fuck happened, but something happened.

When?

After he passed.

And, you know, my dad really tried to, like, put everything in place where my mom wouldn't have to worry about anything.

No matter how much you prepare, it's still, like, there's some loose ends.

And something happened with the phone line where it deleted the message.

And I remember is around the time some other stuff was going on that I won't talk about publicly.

I have talked about it in certain situations publicly, but not podcast publicly, because it's not my business.

But something happened.

I was really upset, and I called the house phone because I wanted to hear his voice.

And it said.

Said, like, the generic, you know, phone line message.

And I almost lost my.

I got so angry.

And I, like, called my mom, and I was like, if she did this because it was.

My emotions were kind of towards her, and I was like, if she did this to get rid of his voice, I'm gonna fucking lose.

Turns out it had nothing to do with her.

It was an accident or something happened.

And she.

She was equally as upset as I was.

But, like, in my head, in that split second, I was like, what the.

Yeah.

So I think we still have his phone number, but, like.

Yeah, I'm actually kind of looking forward to the day where, like, I'm messaging his number and somebody messages back.

I hope.

My hope is that they tell me to keep messaging or something.

At the very.

At the worst, they block me, and I'm still gonna message it, or you.

End up making a connection with somebody.

That.

Yeah.

Is supposed to happen.

Have you seen that post that goes around around this time every year, actually, where a gentleman, or actually it was a family, texted a gentleman.

They had the wrong number, and they invited him over for Thanksgiving dinner.

We're like, are you still coming?

And he was like, I think you have the wrong number, but can I come?

And they've been having, like, their Thanksgiving meals together for, I think, almost a decade now.

That's pretty cool.

Yeah.

Have you ever seen that?

No.

Oh, my gosh.

We'll have to look it up later.

I, like, want to grab one of our phones and show you, but we can't.

Okay.

It's awesome.

I see it circulate, and they still take.

They, like, took a selfie the first time they did it together, posted it, went viral.

They do it every single year, and they're still meeting, and you see them getting older.

Like, the guy was, like, maybe young 20s, and now he's in his 30s.

Like, so.

Yeah, that's my biggest hope for messaging my dad.

Neutral.

If my mom just keeps his number this whole time, because I'm.

Yeah, it's already a thing, like, scrolling through the messages and seeing no response.

Which brings me to another trauma of me, like, messaging him whenever.

When he was still alive towards the end of his life, and he literally couldn't pick up his phone.

So.

So, yeah, worst case scenario, somebody does get his number, they block me, and I'll still message that number despite them.

Just kidding.

But I just.

I feel like that's kind of like my way of.

It's.

It's the learning to not, or it's the learning to be somebody that he'll never know, because Learning.

What were you gonna say?

No, I said, it's part of that learning.

Oh, but what was.

I mean, There is something that I can say about this just on the messages.

The messages thing, it just reminded me of.

So when I was, like, gone in the wind for, like, two years, it was like, two years, there was a point where I wasn't talking to my mom.

And during that time, my mom was worried that she was never going to talk to me again.

And so she had saved a bunch of voicemails on her phone, and a bunch of them.

It's me and Ken.

It's like us calling for Mother's Day or calling and singing Happy Birthday or all of these other things.

And so she had saved all of them.

And she had shared this story with me at one point when they had ordered new phones and they got there, and then she realized she couldn't transfer the voicemails to the new phone.

And so she, like, had this whole panic of being like, I don't want to switch phones.

I don't want to lose those voicemails.

And so my brother was like, no, you can email them to yourself and, like, show.

Show her how to do it.

So she emailed all the voicemails to herself, so they're in her email.

And then it was two Christmas, two Christmases ago that she brought it up to me.

She was here visiting because it was like the first Christmas.

And.

And then she was like, yeah, I have a bunch of voicemails of you guys.

Do you.

I mean, do you want me to email them to you?

And I was like, absolutely, I want you to email them to me.

So that was cool.

I have those.

I haven't listened to them in a while, but I do have them.

Yeah, I only have a couple videos of my dad, like, doing things because I.

We were more like just selfie takers towards the time that we were connected.

But there's a couple videos that I really cherish.

It's like me singing him happy birthday.

Him singing me happy birthday, because he would always do that.

And then my brother, my older brother Ben, he sent me a couple videos that he had.

They're really funny.

They're really funny.

But I cherish those.

I think that because of, like, Ken's death, for me is, like, the video things.

Like, we have videos, but not nearly as many as I would.

Like, we have so many pictures, not as many videos out there.

They exist, but there's not that many of them.

And so because of that, like, now I'm very adamant about, like, taking short little videos and not always just taking pictures.

And, like, yeah, me too.

I'm very, like, people probably get annoyed.

And I'm like.

You're like, you don't understand.

You understand.

What if you die?

Yeah, that's dark.

And it's like.

No, that's just real life.

Yeah.

But that's just where my brain goes, you know?

Yeah.

Or like.

Or like, what if I die?

Use these for my memorial, please.

Like, show people what my smile look like in real life, because it looks different than it looks like in pictures.

My voice, my fucking weird laughs that I do.

Show them this podcast.

When I die, I feel like I end up picking up these habits because of it.

Right.

So I also do this thing where, like, I like to have something, like, people in my life that I care about.

I want something of theirs.

I'm like, can I have a shirt?

Can I have a hoodie?

Do you need something of mine?

I do.

Okay.

Like, I just need something, because what if you die?

I have something of yours.

So we're set.

If you die, I'm good.

But see, this is the.

The humor and possibly, like, dark side of our topics because, like, this is the kind of person that we had to become because they passed.

Yeah.

I feel like maybe some people would listen to this and be like, what the fuck?

Like, I need you to give me a piece of your clothing because what if you die?

This is the upside, though, really, because I love that I do that today.

I love that about myself.

I love that that makes me happy and that.

That it makes me more present.

Your lock that you gave me is on my altar for all of my, like, my ancestor altar, my dad, Jim's soul dog, our friends.

He's pretty much our dog, too.

Our families dog, and Jim's mom.

And then I have little momentos for quite a few other people that I've never met.

And your wedding lock with Ken is on there.

It's just special.

It's so special.

And I love that death has given me presence.

I did not have that before my dad died.

So I do love that I have become that kind of person.

It has changed my relationships with people.

It has changed my relationship with myself.

I feel like I can be a better person to other people.

Like, not just, like, I love the relationships that I have, or it's all, like, the little things, like how I communicate with people, how people communicate with me, how I can be present for people, how I think about things, even just, like, I don't know.

I feel like you wouldn't have given that to me.

I feel like this may be kind of obvious, but, like, if Ken hadn't passed.

You wouldn't have given that to me, you know?

Yeah.

No, probably not.

Yeah.

And I feel like that's kind of, like, an obvious observation, but in a way, I feel like it's significant because.

Because you care and because you love me.

You thought that I was worthy of receiving something like that, and you knew that I would understand the gravity of that, and that's part of why it meant so much to me.

And I don't know, it just, like, keeps on going in a circle like that.

And I feel like that's super special.

Like, that just wouldn't have happened unless we were able to sit on that wall and look at both sides.

So something that's interesting with the locks, Right.

Because I have locks.

I have one left.

It's.

Yeah.

You told me you had multiple ones.

Yeah, there was six of them.

Six.

And I saved.

I have one that.

So that was the last.

The one that I gave you was the last one to give.

And what's interesting about it is the people I gave the locks to.

Right.

Because I was very much rebuilding my life during this time.

And so there is somebody that I gave a lock to that is not in my life whatsoever.

And I feel like I'm not mad about it, and I wasn't upset about it when it happened.

Like, I wasn't like, damn it.

Like, they have one of the locks.

Like, it was really strange, actually, how much I wasn't angry about it.

I, like, immediately.

My thought was, like, that person played a part in creating a safe space when you needed it during your grieving journey.

And.

And that's why I gave that to them.

And then they're no longer in my life.

And it was like.

I don't know.

I just was okay with it.

Like, it was like, maybe the lesson of, like, not a lesson.

Like, I didn't feel like I needed to learn that lesson, but it was just more of, like, a reaffirmation of, like, just because of how things go, or other people can treat you or change.

You should never change how you are.

Like, be intentional.

Like, you know.

You know what I mean?

Like, don't change who you are because somebody decides that they're gonna be a shitty person.

Yeah.

You know, it's the grown version of, like, if you give somebody a gift, like, have no expectations.

Like, they.

Yeah.

Just have no expectations.

Yeah.

So there was one lock that went to that direction, I guess, But I don't know.

I was like.

I think that's just how it was supposed to be.

I mean, now if it would have happened with two people.

I would have been like, like, I'm fucking up.

No, fuck this.

But yeah, yeah.

Roseanne has one of them.

She has the.

Because it has the keys.

Yeah, she has the keys on her keychain, like on her car key.

I love that.

I'd be too afraid of losing them.

They're just together.

Mine's on my.

Mine is on my keychain.

The keys are on the keychain.

But I think she was telling me, like, one of her kiddos, her youngest was like, what does this unlock, mom?

And she's, you know, being a smart ass.

She's like, my heart, my heart, my heart.

Yeah.

That's special, though.

I love that you did that.

Yeah.

My mom actually had them.

He has.

I sent her a bunch of stuff after the wedding.

I mean, I'm glad that I did because, like, we ended up losing all of our stuff.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And so I had sent her a bunch of things, and that was one of the things that I sent her.

And so then after he passed and she was like, I have a bunch of stuff from your wedding and all this other stuff.

She's like, do you want me to send it to you?

And I was like, yes, I do.

And they were in the box.

Yeah.

And then I have, like, a bunch of decorations for our wedding.

Who did, like, a beach themed wedding.

So, like, the.

That I need to fix the.

I need to fix that.

But all the stuff that's on there.

So I had taken a bunch of.

It's a picture frame of them together, and there's.

It's decorated with, like, seashells, sea stars, driftwood, and seaweed looking.

You know, it's like a.

It's a picture frame with a lot of beachy things on it.

So I had taken all the beachy stuff, and then I took different pictures and then I decorated all of them and then I sent them to my family who came to the wedding, like I said.

But I used all of the decorations to incorporate it into the things.

So then that's special.

When that happened.

Then of course, after he passed, then my family was like, everybody who had stuff, they were like, do you want this?

And I was like, yeah, I'm so sorry.

Can you give it back?

Yes, please.

I actually need all of those things back.

Fair.

I'm gonna need you to give that back.

Yeah, I'm okay with that.

Attachment.

Yeah, I'm okay with all of it.

It.

Sometimes you just got to be.

Sometimes it just is what it is.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I don't think I'll ever be okay with either of these topics.

Yeah, it's like, on one hand, I could try and preach about, you know, both of those, about how I am on, you know, learning to love my life without them or becoming that person.

And I love doing that because sometimes I try to think about it like that, but then there's other times where it just sucks.

Yeah.

I think it sucks more than it's the other one.

Yeah.

Can I share one more thing?

Yeah.

So this kind of side.

Well, it's kind of off topic, but it kind of isn't.

I mean, because you were kind of.

You were talking about, like, how you message your dad and stuff.

We were talking about that stuff.

Right?

Like, the messages.

So right after Ken passed, during that time that I was, like, moved and got in my own space and all that, I wrote a lot of letters to him.

I wrote a song about writing letters to him, actually, as well.

All sorts of stuff.

I was journaling, writing music, all that.

And I had.

I guess I didn't realize where it had gone.

But last Sunday.

What day is it?

Monday.

Okay, so not yesterday, but the day before.

Whatever.

It's like a week ago, my adopted family, I went over to their house, and they were like, hey, this box was in the closet.

It's yours.

And I was like, okay.

I opened, and there was, like, a bunch of different, like, notebooks in there and pictures and all of this stuff.

There was notebooks from when I was in custody in there, like, all sorts of stuff.

I was like, oh, look at memories.

Look at this.

And the journal that I was writing in when I was, like, not doing great was in there.

And on Saturday, I was, like, flipping through some of the pages and reading it.

And it was just so wild to me to read the things that I wrote one for, like, where I'm at now and to read, like.

I mean, when I was reading it, I'm like, it was, like, traveling time.

Traveling back into that time because I felt it when I read it.

And I was like, fuck.

Like, there's.

It gets pretty dark in that journal.

I will say it was a dark time in my life, but it was wild to read that stuff.

And then.

Yeah, but I think I want to start writing letters again.

Like, I'm in a completely different head space.

And I feel like now it would be more like I could write letters and, like, share things.

Like, share exciting things.

Kind of like how you text your dad exciting things, stuff like that.

Like, I don't know if I could do the message thing yet.

I don't know.

I don't know if I could do that.

I think it might, but maybe not, because I did recently change my screensaver to a picture of Ken and I, like, a month ago.

Literally every time I look at my phone, it is a picture of Ken and I, which I couldn't do that for a really long time, you know?

And now that's what it is, and that's fine.

I'm cool with it.

Like, it doesn't make me freak out or anything, you know?

So maybe I could do that.

But anyways, I feel like the letters would be a little more positive now compared to the ones I wrote back then.

There.

It's a lot of apologizing and not great things.

Yeah.

Heavy.

Yeah.

I write letters, too.

My letters are.

I don't know when.

I don't know if there's, like, a time or a pattern between, like, when I send text messages or when I write letters, but I definitely do both.

And the letters, I feel like they're.

They're definitely more sad for me.

I feel like my text messages are more upbeat and happy, and my letters are sad.

Just, like, telling him how much I miss him and all the sad stuff.

Mm.

Yeah.

I think it's good to do those, though.

They are really sad.

But I feel like that sad energy needs to go somewhere.

Didn't Roseanne share about that in her chapter about how she had a dad journal?

She does.

Mm.

Mm.

Yeah.

She writes her dad all the time.

Yeah.

So there's something to it.

Yeah.

Cause it's like, you know what I mean?

I don't know.

Usually, like, talking to that person and saying things that you wouldn't say to somebody else because you're saying it to that person.

Like, I'm not gonna talk to you and be like, I miss you so much.

I love you so much.

Like, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's like a different.

It's good.

I love that.

Yeah.

I'm gonna start doing that again.

Yeah.

Let's write letters.

Let's write letters.

Yeah.

But I don't know.

I think that's it, really.

Yeah.

I don't really have any good tips or tricks on this one.

Yeah.

I feel like just.

I feel like just talking about it.

Finding somebody else who gets it.

Yeah.

Just talking about it on here.

Mm.

I feel like that's important.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yep.

So thank you so much for listening.

If you've tuned in and, yeah, if you relate, like, please let us know or if you have any answers or.

Experiences, please, do you know the answer?

Do you have an answer?

How do you get rid of that wall?

Does it go away?

Is the wall there forever?

Is it made of bricks?

I was envisioning, like, a stone wall.

Yeah.

Mine was stone, too.

Was it interesting?

I mean, just like, chipping away little pieces at it.

I think the stone takes a long time to get through.

Yes.

Weather will naturally age it and all that shit.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for those topics because, yeah, I definitely want to explore that more.

And since we've talked about it now, I feel like I'm going to be thinking about it for a little bit and.

And, yeah, I'm just really grateful to talk about it and process because that's how I learn my own beliefs about things.

Talking about this.

Because if you don't, then how do you know.

Yeah.

Or how do you even know that there are things to think about?

Because with grief, we just block so much out, so much of it that.

Yeah, there's just so much to explore.

Like, there's so much transformation.

There's so much.

Like, it's definitely something that people, like, don't want to explore, but, like, if you're in it, you're fucking in it.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Might as well walk around.

Yeah.

And I definitely talked about, like, a lot of really positive things about how I feel about both of those sides of the wall.

Like, I do have a lot of positives.

That doesn't negate the sad, does not negate it.

But I'm super grateful for the positives.

Yes.

So I feel like that's the upside, that you can be.

You can find gratitude even when you're sad.

You can.

So.

But, yeah, be sure to, if you have similar experiences, share them.

We would really like to hear them.

Definitely.

But next week we have more.

A little bit.

A little bit more fun next week.

Moments of Knowing.

Moments of Knowing.

Moments of Knowing.

Our Moments of Knowing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That should be a fun segment.

It is a fun segment because we.

Wanted to add our own in there.

We're a little groovy.

Yeah.

It's such a big part of both of our stories, so we had to.

Yeah.

So tune in next week for Erica's Moments of Knowing.

Yes.

Until then, like, follow, subscribe and share with your friends.

We love you guys so much.

We'll see you next week.

Bye.

Bye.