Continuing on from Part 1, Bianca discusses the importance of understanding, connection, and finding one's purpose in the aftermath of grief. James shares his coping mechanisms, primarily through physical exertion and running, finding solace in pushing his physical limits. The episode underscores the non-linear nature of grief, emphasizing that everyone experiences and copes with loss differently. The couple also talks about supportive therapies, including counseling, massage, yoga, and maintaining strong personal connections, as they navigate through their emotions. Reflecting on the different coping strategies they used, the episode provides insights into how individuals and couples can support each other through the complex journey of grief. The conversation is enriched by the expertise of Dr. Mai Fransden, who offers psychological perspectives on coping and healing.

Music: “Denali” by Bryant Lowry.

Written by Bryant Richard Lowry (BMI).

Published by Boss Soundstripe Productions (BMI).

Licensed via Soundstripe Inc.

Cover Image: Eden Wilday (edenwilday.com)

Follow: @fromexperience_ or @biancaleewelsh

Resources

Through the Unexpected - information and a list of support options for parents faced with prenatal diagnosis.

Pink Elephants Support Network - offers online grief support and information for miscarriage.

Red Nose or SANDS offers 24/7 telephone grief support on 1300 308 307

Bears of Hope - offers grief support on 1300 11 HOPE or via email: support@bearsofhope.org.au

TFMR Mamas - a resource and community for the TFMR community

**All of the above have specific TFMR pages

PANDA - Perinatal Anxiety and Depression Australia - supports the mental health of parents and families during pregnancy and in their first year of parenthood - or 1300 726 306.

Lifeline - 13 11 14

Heartfelt - volunteer organisation providing professional photographers to families who have experienced the loss of a baby or child living with serious or life threatening illness.

For the Dads! Red Nose service specifically for Dad’s. Love From Dad - a website and instagram account for bereaved Dads.

Other things mentioned in this episode

The amazing physiotherapist Michaela Muldoon who treated us with a trauma lens - Restore Physio (Launceston)

Mountain Biking Experience - Blue Derby Pods

Meal Train our friends setup - it’s amazing, we would get a notification of what was coming and it gave those that wanted to be a part of it the ability to see what others were cooking so we didn’t end up with a 1000 lasagnes.

The Ring Theory of Grief an article from Psychology Today but also helpful to understand just from this image.

Nick Cave’s Letter to a fellow griever.

The Image of the hole of grief, but how we grow around it.

Point to Pinnacle - the world’s toughest half marathon and the physical feat that I would say changed my life, always held in November in Hobart, Tasmania.

Linden Cook impression range - the footprint ring James has and I have a necklace.

Sarah and Sebastian - birthstone range, I have Herb and both our living children’s birthstone on a bracelet (conveniently both my living children are born in the same month).

Breathwork: unfortunately nothing regular in Launceston, but hopefully that will change! For Hobartians - Alchemy Performance, Embodied Living, and Hobart Breathing Space. Based in Melbourne by they have an App - Breath Haus. And The Lily Flower by Priyanka Saha, she is a loss mum and has just begun healing and somatic healing through breathwork with an online guide.

For a comprehensive list of other resources please see fromexperience.co.

00:00 Introduction to the Grief Collection Podcast

01:25 The Universality of Grief

02:14 Acknowledging Sensitive Topics

03:28 James's Journey Through Grief

07:47 Therapeutic Activities and Coping Mechanisms

26:57 The Role of Community and Support

31:27 Navigating Work and Social Expectations

37:37 Reflecting on Personal Changes and Acceptance

52:09 Navigating Guilt and Trauma

53:09 Protective Instincts and Coping Mechanisms

56:07 Finding Solace in Connection

01:03:20 Physical Activities as Therapy

01:12:45 Commemorating and Remembering

01:16:56 The Loneliness of Grief

01:27:56 The Healing Power of a New Life

01:33:11 Exploring Breath Work and Medium Sessions

01:35:44 The Role of Structure and Relationship in Coping

01:36:52 Introducing Dr. Mai Fransden

01:38:20 Discussing Grief and Coping Mechanisms

02:01:39 The Importance of Space and Support

02:17:02 Final Thoughts and Acknowledgements

[00:00:31] Bianca: Hello, and thank you for joining me on this podcast From Experience: the Grief Collection. I'm your host, Bianca Welsh. I'm a mom, a loss mom, a restaurateur with a behavioral science degree and a proclivity for all things to do with trauma, grief, and mental illness. I've got a lot of personal lived experience, and this is the podcast I wish I had after experiencing my own grief and loss.

[00:02:14] Bianca: Just a heads up. In this episode, we talk about some sensitive topics, including baby loss, birth, stillbirth, termination for medical reasons, feticide, suicidal thoughts and experiences of trauma. If you're not in the right head space for that today, maybe come back another time. If anything in this episode brings up difficult feelings, please reach out to someone you trust or one of the supports listed in the show notes.

[00:02:58] Bianca: I express my gratitude in being [00:03:00] able to live, work, and play on this beautiful country. Sovereignty was never ceded. I honor the rich tradition of storytelling as a vital way of passing down knowledge, culture, and history through generations.

[00:03:18] Bianca: If you haven't already listened to part one, I'd suggest going back as this episode will make a bit more sense.

[00:03:29] James: Have you tried getting over it? Let's fucking go.

[00:03:47] James: Hello and hello to your listeners.

[00:04:06] James: Even more uncomfortable. 'cause you made me do it three times for the podcast.

[00:04:19] James: Good question. It was nausea. You tell me. I forgot.

[00:04:29] James: Yeah. That's a, that's a common one of mine when that is get a bit uncomfortable.

[00:04:49] James: thought it was a good idea to be even more unregulated than I was.

[00:04:59] James: Yeah, [00:05:00] yeah, definitely pushed things along

[00:05:12] James: Yeah. I guess collectively, if you want to combine all those periods, what it felt like was numb, felt like it wasn't happening, like it was someone else's story.

[00:05:34] James: Things that have worked, looking back over an extended period of time from now to when

[00:05:48] Bianca: Three

[00:05:54] Bianca: Let's start that again. He's turned three.

[00:06:05] Bianca: What do you mean?

[00:06:10] Bianca: The less it is, the more permission you give yourself to grieve. I don't understand that.

[00:06:16] Bianca: mm-hmm.

[00:06:34] Bianca: Is that just a general feeling that you get from society, from your friends? Like is it, is it a specific thing?

[00:07:11] Bianca: I wouldn't say, it's not like you didn't deal with it. I think that that was your way of coping was to just kind of park it up for a bit. Just for survival.

[00:07:27] James: Mm-hmm. I guess when I sit there and reflect and it's, it's not often. It's in a situation where I'm forced to and there's minimal distractions, like a flat phone, a flat MacBook, a flat battery charger, and no petrol on the car. So I've gotta sit there with a notebook and a pen and feel how fucking much it hurts.

[00:08:28] James: Um, running with, with definitely with a purpose. So it's those events that I enter and wear Herb's singlet and feel a tremend pain that I get to live. I get to do this and he doesn't, and I get to do [00:09:00] events like the Gold Coast Marathon with his name on my shirt and the bib and the spectators yelling out go Herbert.

[00:09:56] Bianca: For those that don't know, James is an incredible [00:10:00] distance runner, an incredibly fast distance runner and can really push himself physically. But I would say seeing you do races and running for purposes now is so different to before we lost Herb because James has done plenty of races before. But I see a completely different set of expectations when you race now, and it's more about that connection to Herb connection with the people around you.

[00:11:00] Bianca: But that fee is not to James. He requests that people donate it to either Bears of Hope or another baby loss organization That provided us with support and I think that that has given you such a different set of expectations instead of it being all about getting the best time, you almost just wanna access, it's your opportunity, I guess, to, to be with Herb because you feel like that when you are, when you're running and you can get a Bears of Hope running race singlet from Bears of Hope, where you can get your baby's name printed on the bib, and James wears it religiously for any of the races he goes in.

[00:11:47] James: comfort? It's it's purpose. So I'll sit there and write programs multiple times a week and I'll review data and encourage people and [00:12:00] share my learnings of 25 years of running. And I guess I'm just always reminded as to why I am doing it. And it's for not a monetary gain, it's for families like us in a situation of need that will get the support of important charities.

[00:12:49] James: I said to him, the final message, I said before he started, I don't have any expectation. I might say that I know PB no fee, but my expectation is that you are grateful [00:13:00] for putting the bib on because we'd not all get the opportunity.

[00:13:18] James: Yeah. And distance running it, it sort of, it speaks in a narrative that goes across all planes of life. We, we have this expectation to always run a personal best, but we're not always our best from day to day. We're not always our best from race to race. And I say to these guys that, yeah, I make a joke saying, no pb no fee.

[00:13:57] Bianca: And what is next on your list?

[00:14:07] James: And my current psychologist has been sort of monumental in that space because she gave me a pearl one day and I've just always returned to it, is she said, James, that's just the way the dice landed. And from that day I've always picked it up and gone. She's right, like it is.

[00:15:05] James: You never prepared for it, you didn't think it was coming your way. So in terms of accepting that piece of therapy and that piece of advice has been really powerful. But in terms of accepting what happened, I, I think I still live now, not fully accepting it 'cause it just doesn't make sense. And we quite often ask, uh, that's unfair. Or why us?

[00:16:02] Bianca: I was going through some of my old messages and texts in preparation to do this chat during that time, and I still can't believe, I still cannot believe that they're my words and that's how I was feeling and that it actually happened. Do you think that because we've been, you and I, we used to be such fate believers that I guess we used to think that everything kind of happens for a reason.

[00:16:49] James: It has, but it's all also helped us subscribe to things do happen for a reason, and that's why we do call her a gift. And the spaces that you've moved [00:17:00] into and the spaces that I've moved into that we'd never pick up had this not happened. And there's certain things that we do with our, our living children that we wouldn't have done if Herb survived.. I'm not even gonna call it a silver lining, but there is some gifts that this has given.

[00:17:54] James: Yeah. It can go one of two ways. I think there's been families in our situation that haven't been able to weather the [00:18:00] storm in terms of relationships and, and certain preexisting mental illnesses or some people fall into coping mechanisms that don't serve themselves or their families. So I think in terms of clicking subscribe, we've definitely gone for the fruitful.

[00:18:23] James: Some other things like massage and we touched on yoga, but I think the massage, particularly over the first couple of weeks that both of us were physically beaten up in terms of I know what a sore body feels like post a marathon, but it pales into this situation. I remember just, just being absolutely sore from head to toe and the grief being caught in our thoracic sort of ribs or midsection. And we've got a very kind friend that works in the physio space that came and treated us [00:19:00] both, and she knows exactly what grief does around that area of the body. And, and a lot of people wouldn't believe it and think it's, think it's voodoo.

[00:19:36] James: Which is fascinating and just so grateful to have a person like that. Not only a friend, but someone that was just happy to drop around and, and just so, so kind. Mm-hmm. And the yoga world. We touched on that. I just sort of went down the rabbit hole of yin rather than fast paced yoga. But I think the thing about [00:20:00] yoga was more to do with the people in the community. There was certainly a space that allowed me, even if I just went along to yoga and laid on my back and did nothing, I was surrounded by people that created a space for me too. Cry, think about Herb do whatever I needed on that occasion. And those people are still still there, and I haven't been back in a while, but I run to them in the street and they go, oh, we've been missing you. We've been talking about you. And I'm like, I barely said hello to you. But they, they acknowledge my presence as much as I acknowledge their presence.

[00:21:20] Bianca: Do you think, it's interesting that not a lot of males would tend to consider yoga. Um, I know there was a handful of men and a few really great male instructors that you had, but do you think it's really interesting that a lot of men won't turn to something like that for what you turn to it for?

[00:22:07] James: There's times that I, I bolted from yoga 'cause it was just too painful in the middle of the class. And there's other times that you're just having a bit of a chat in the, in the change rooms on the way out. It's a community that's non-competitive and just really wholesome.

[00:22:25] Bianca: I've never thought about it that yin is the female element. And I said to you, and I, I still can't quite articulate it, but I remember in the early stages afterwards that I find it perhaps remarkable that a woman's body can hold life, but it also can hold death. And I, I dunno how quite to explain that, but there was part of the, the journey, particularly after we had the feticide, that herb was just in my tummy until we could go to hospital to have the birth the next day. And a friend, [00:23:00] my very dear friend, Alex, gave me some of the best words of comfort to say; all he knows is you. And all he knows is love and comfort and warmth.

[00:23:12] Bianca: And I found that just so comforting. I really, really needed that. But it, it is like a woman's body is remarkable what we can hold that the energies that we hold, we can hold life. And I held death. I, I've physically held death inside of me.

[00:23:37] James: yeah, I guess from conception to Herb passing is, is just spot on. All, all he knew was that he had a Mum that took good care of him, nourished him, spoke to him, kept him in a warm place, kept him safe, kept him well fed. And you're right, it's a space that it's all Herb knows, it's all he knew.

[00:24:06] Bianca: Yeah, I find I still use her words as comfort even to this day thinking about it. What else is on your list, James?

[00:24:39] James: Went solo with some random people from around Australia, but it certainly gave me an opportunity to go inside. And when I mean inside, I got to spend a moment to acknowledge that I hadn't accepted what was going on, and there was still [00:25:00] work to be done. So accepting that there was still a bucket load of grief within my body, and I was that pest throughout the whole three days that just wanted to constantly recite my story with the four other random people. I wanted to share our story, and I wanted to tell 'em all about Herb, which I thought was really interesting.

[00:25:51] James: Yeah. So I was quite shocked that that's the way I behaved. And after the weekend, my nervous system was properly fried [00:26:00] because it played on all sort of strings. The mountain biking was high intensity and and risk taking. And when I wasn't mountain biking, my nervous system was still in a unregulated state.

[00:27:02] James: Uh, another big one in terms of what did work. Were friends, particularly through food. Initially we were inundated with meals, which was just kindness in spades. Some meals were just incredible, how, how food can say so much about the person and we find nourishment in, in someone else taking care of us. Lots of hugs and certain people would give you a hug and it was really restorative and then other people would give you a hug and it was somewhat repulsive.

[00:28:09] Bianca: I think it's what anyone I believe that has experienced any type of grief finds it difficult to understand. Is that how it is the furthest thing from linear. And hearing James speak to me, it, it hurts to see how much it still hurts because we're three years down the track and, and even I have an expectation on it in general that it's not gonna be as painful, but it is.

[00:29:04] Bianca: And I remember us talking about it in those early days, and I think it was the first six weeks going, oh my God. Like this is just something we've never even bear witness to with some of our close friends and family that have experienced their own grief. What happens behind closed doors is, is not talked about enough.

[00:29:40] James: And that's the reason why I feel so compelled to share the way I feel. I'm generally a closed book as you know. I don't want to tell people how I'm feeling and I've always had a bit of a stiff upper lip, suck it up. Don't let people know exactly how you're feeling, which is is complete wrong [00:30:00] way to go around your business. But showing up and sharing this story, I always think about, is there another dad out there that's going through exactly what we went through?

[00:30:44] James: It was a space for me to flush my emotions and, and keep them private. Which again, is not always the best way of sharing the way you're feeling,

[00:31:04] James: Yeah, very much so. And I thought about another mate of ours that lost a child.

[00:31:31] Bianca: Can I ask you about how you navigated work?

[00:31:58] Bianca: But sometimes [00:32:00] if we were standing together, you would literally not be acknowledged as it was your loss as well, and it made it so challenging in those really early stages afterwards that so many people, particularly of the older generation, found it that it wasn't, your loss was just not acknowledged because you are the dad, and I hate, I hate that you had that experience.

[00:32:55] Bianca: And I remember when I started to go back to work and it took me months and I'll [00:33:00] talk a little bit about my journey soon that I remember. I almost felt like I wanted the building. 'cause we've been at Stillwater for so long, it's such a big part of our identity that it needed to almost reflect how I was feeling. I wanted the building to almost be damaged. I wanted there something to be like a whole crack through the building so that people could see there was a physical representation to reflect what I was feeling. And of course that's not possible. But I wanted to talk to you a little bit about what that navigating back to work was like because you went back about 10 days later and you just would do an hour in the morning and often when there was not really many people around. And it, I know that that was really important to you to help you cope, to feel as though you were doing something, but in reflection, do you feel like that did help?

[00:34:46] James: 40 days. But for me, I need to run the numbers and go, okay, time's up show must go on. And I guess with our operation and now [00:35:00] the nature of our business, we have two performances a day, six to seven days, six days a week. And

[00:35:12] James: 18 performances a week and the guest that's coming in doesn't wanna see me crying in my soup.

[00:35:47] James: And the situations where you just get a fuckwit customer that tells you that you can't count your child 'cause he didn't live. So there's situations like that, and I will use the word fuckwit [00:36:00] and you can bleep it out because to have a guy in his mid sixties turn around and say to essentially both of us, oh, he doesn't count as a child.

[00:36:35] James: And then on the flip side of the coin, we saw some beautiful people that wrapped us up, shared that they've had a very similar situation 40, 30 years ago. Told us what worked for them, it's not all bad stories. I see restaurants as a space as don't hop in the ring unless you're prepared to get a jab in the chin sort of thing, and for a very long period of time, and even to now you [00:37:00] gotta be match fit. And it's shit that is that way. It's shit that grief takes so much from you. I. And that's the, the point that we often make is there's a pre Herb and a post Herb, but that's just how it is.

[00:37:36] James: Yeah. And again, there's that expectation that shouldn't be that way. Mm-hmm. Should have gone on with it. What do you mean that happened years ago, mate.

[00:38:21] James: Yeah. I remember unpacking it with my psychologist and saying that personally I not only lost a child, but I lost my wife that day.

[00:38:31] James: And I remember saying I don't feel the same. She doesn't feel the same, even though you've come back as this incredibly powerful woman that Herb would be so proud of.

[00:39:10] James: You do that, you get this. So I'm, again, three and a bit years on, I'm still coming to terms with that, fuck the goalposts do move. Yeah. And there's no guarantee.

[00:39:22] James: And I, and I also double down with my athletes with the coaching saying, you don't know whether this is the last race you'll ever get to put a bib on. You. Could you run over by a bus tomorrow.

[00:39:59] James: and that gives me [00:40:00] comfort to know that he has that with him.

[00:40:26] James: And it's the same scenario. It's the same situation. The looks on mum's face and the smiles on his face, they were never the same. No. And that's a grief in itself to look back and go, I'll never be that person. My wife would never be that person. Claude will never get the mum that was around before Herb.

[00:41:02] Bianca: And it's not all negative. I think the parent I've become is a lot more present.

[00:41:28] James: This list is probably a bit harder to understand because you have to really, really go back in time and reflect, but definitely isolating. So not connecting with the friends and and family and those that you would normally share. Stories and meals and time and activities not feeling, which I've already sort of covered on that, but that's generally links into what I'm, what I'm thinking and, and drinking, particularly [00:42:00] alcohol and numbing a situation or distracting a situation.

[00:42:31] James: And there's a point that I've only sort of just arrived at. I knew I was grieving, but to what extent and to compare my grief to yours or the way I was grieving and we talk that grief and grieving's two different things. Uh, what didn't work was not journaling. I look back now and you did a lot of journaling and I sat there and scribed out this at the pool when everything went to shit with my laptop and [00:43:00] my phone, and I felt how cathartic it was to get pen on paper and to actually allow yourself some space to see exactly where you're at.

[00:43:50] James: I thought, wow, this would've worked. This journaling would've really worked some time ago. [00:44:00] How was your experience with journaling?

[00:44:22] Bianca: And I found that really, really cathartic and really special that I could share that with other people. But personally to journal and just to get all the thoughts out of my head and get it out of my body, I found really effective.

[00:45:17] Bianca: We learnt I can't remember who helped us understand it was the ring theory of grief and the concept of whoever is at the center of that loss is in the like rings of a tree, like you're right in the middle, middle circle.

[00:45:53] Bianca: So wherever you are in the rings to the loss, you need to dump out to your [00:46:00] people on the outer. And comfort to the rings within. And I guess not to point or to, to say anyone's at fault, but the way perhaps to cope, were looking to us for comfort and we, we weren't able to give it,

[00:46:33] James: And even myself wasn't in that scope of work, which you don't have the bandwidth to look after too much more. And I think some people in our situation that even just to take care of themselves, to get up and get showered and get fed can be challenging some days, but. I think avoiding to talk to other loss dads is a real big one for me, and I'm pretty [00:47:00] ashamed of it, to be honest with you.

[00:47:35] James: And I guess I wasn't prepared to feel the pain either. But I had a chat to a loss dad last weekend and had a chat about all sorts of things, but we didn't talk about loss, which I was quite surprised. And I reflect back going, shit, I've avoided this guy because I thought the first thing he'd bring up would [00:48:00] be baby loss and we just didn't talk about it.

[00:48:15] Bianca: because there's just an unsaid presence and understanding you've got of each other isn't there when you know the other person has been through something almost exact to what you, I mean, everyone has a different experience and a different story, but you have a, an unsaid connection and there's comfort in that.

[00:48:36] James: There is and there's times that I wish I, I wrapped up those dads and didn't go the other way. It's funny as blokes tend to not talk about the elephant in the room and even in other situations, it's a bit tougher to navigate than, rather than to talk about the weather or the footy.

[00:49:20] James: And whether that did or didn't work for me and I hope it worked for my family, but it's definitely something that there gets a point where. I dunno, it's brutal to say, but the show's gotta go on and there has to be someone that takes that leadership role. Well, that doesn't have to be, but I, I took a lot of comfort out of shielding, particularly you from people that I thought that were gonna hurt you.

[00:50:25] Bianca: And then once he was born, I guess you could let down your guard a little bit because you could let down your guard for me and then. Yeah, I would agree in the aftermath, especially with how anxious I was to leave the house, because of the physical nature of the female being the one that's visibly pregnant, I had a lot of fear of walking down the street and someone congratulating me on the baby.

[00:51:46] Bianca: And I know that you are the one that stepped up to help him navigate through that because I almost went like mute. I think sometimes during those times, like I just felt so much and I still do, [00:52:00] I still feel so much guilt and shame that I'm the one that's brought your pain and suffering and claude's pain and suffering because it happened in me, and I know that that's irrational. I know that's not logical

[00:52:16] Bianca: but I still do feel that it is, like, I guess that's the trauma, the PTSD kind of a very typical symptom in, in that is the guilt stuff.

[00:52:38] James: and I know that, and that's, that's a part too where I try not to be as visible because I just don't want to give you more anguish than you need.

[00:52:55] Bianca: And, and it happened. And I know, like I, I do know deep down. And I've done a lot of [00:53:00] work and a lot of therapy, but I have said to my therapist, I'm no longer actively seeing her at the moment, but I did say to her that there will always be a part of me, always be a part of me that believes it was my fault.

[00:53:39] James: They're trying to ask about us and, and I was this front foot guy. Everyone we'd run into, I, I'd, I'd ask 82 questions about them in the hope that they would not ask a question about us. And I, I thought that that method was a clever tactic to protect Bianca. But in the end, Bianca's, like, for [00:54:00] fuck sake, can you, can you shut up?

[00:54:31] Bianca: Mm-hmm. I forgot about that. But we used to have lunch together every single day after. I guess we sadly had the luxury of time in the day 'cause Claude was at school. So James would maybe go to work in the morning and then come back and we'd always have lunch. We might go out or we'd stay at home. And I remember that, I remember it got to a point where I was like, can you just stay at work? Can you just like, fuck [00:55:00] off? 'cause I'm not getting anything done.

[00:55:31] Bianca: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:50] James: It didn't serve me because there is no reason, and it is a situation of ill fate or chance, and it wasn't sent to us and it [00:56:00] wasn't deliberate and it wasn't chosen, it was misfortune. So now we've covered off on my 82 different things that did and didn't work. What worked for you?

[00:56:51] Bianca: I knew of people that had experienced a stillbirth, but I didn't know of anyone specifically or in my memory that had [00:57:00] experienced what, we went through a termination for medical reason. And I felt like it was just this extra layer and this extra bit of shame and taboo ness that I needed someone's help to navigate.

[00:57:36] Bianca: But I would say the biggest thing that's got me through is connection. And it was finding my people, it was finding my loss community. And we've spoken before about my very close friend Emily, and I really attribute my connection with her and our similarities of the way we think and the similarities of our situation.

[00:58:13] James: sort of think about the beautiful part of, particularly females is they seek that similar information. They seek those people in similar situations and they're so happy to share support and again, share what did and didn't work for them.

[00:59:06] Bianca: A big one was someone who'd been through a loss 30 plus years ago and she's done some amazing charity work and she works at the hospital and she's got an organization that does a heap of amazing work in Africa. And she just definitively, she was so clear and sure when she said, you will find your purpose and you'll be okay.

[00:59:49] James: I think you're spot on. And I remember that too. And it was like an elder basically saying, this has happened and you will be okay. It'll take time. [01:00:00] Yep. It'll hurt like hell.

[01:00:29] James: It's evidence, what you're saying is evidence that you will be okay.

[01:00:34] James: And it's a good way of seeing it because at the, you are at the time you can't see beyond

[01:00:38] James: The next hour, the next week. That's

[01:01:16] Bianca: And I just wanted something to take me. I didn't wanna leave, but the pain I was experiencing, I thought, I can't, I can't, I'm not gonna survive this. So finding examples and connection was, was really key to me. A lot of it was in the little moments and the little concepts and maybe an image or a poem or a letter. I quote it in the intro about Nick Cave's letter, and I'll link it in the show notes.

[01:02:32] Bianca: A little image, a cartoon image of a hole, and that the hole never gets smaller. But what you do is you grow around it, those visuals helped me conceptualize what I was feeling. And I'd almost imagine that hole in the middle of me that it was this huge hole. But there's these things growing around.

[01:03:11] Bianca: And we also like the the weight concept, and we use this as well when we're talking about mental illness and poor mental health. In that, it's like a muscle, you gotta train the muscle. So it's like a weight. The, the weight of grief never gets any lighter, but you get stronger. One other thing that really helped was doing a physical thing. So I did find doing a little bit of martial arts, I used to do martial arts back in the day and Claude was doing TaeKwonDo, and so I decided to, to hop in and it's a different discipline to what I used to do.

[01:04:18] James: Certainly prior to the Herb, I would never have thought you'd run up Mount Wellington for the world's toughest half marathon.

[01:04:35] James: If you see her running, you run too. 'cause something's chasing her.

[01:04:59] Bianca: And [01:05:00] he said, oh, what are you, what are you guys doing down here? 'cause we're in Hobart and he lives in Hobart. And we just honestly told him and he was just in shock

[01:05:32] Bianca: Yep. And I then ran into him. I was down there for work like maybe six or seven months after Herb and I ran into him and he owns and runs the Point to Pinnacle Race here in Tasmania. So you run up kunyani, Mount Wellington, it's touted as the world's toughest half marathon.

[01:05:57] James: 1,296 meters of [01:06:00] elevation gained.

[01:06:14] Bianca: And he said, Hmm. He just looked at me with those eyes and said, everyone does it for a reason. Oh. And I still remember going, oh man, you've got me. I said, all right, I'll enter.

[01:06:53] Bianca: I would go to say it was life changing, doing the event. The training was really hard and I got injured 'cause I've never done [01:07:00] distances like that before. And I was overweight after the pregnancy and I guess had a, had a poor coach. No, I had a good coach.

[01:08:22] Bianca: And I got them to, I asked them to write because they hand write the name on the tags and they said, what, what name would you like on there? And I was like, oh, I would really like Herbert Elio Theodore Welsh. And when they sent me a picture, I thought, oh my God, the poor person that's had to write his very long name, I think it was 370 Bears, they ended up having to write it on. I love knowing that his name is out there and it's helped a family feel less alone in that moment.

[01:08:58] Bianca: Yeah, it was really moving.

[01:09:07] Bianca: We had a little team, some of our really close friends and some of our friends that aren't that close that wanted to get involved and it was so meaningful. So on the day it was pouring with rain, it was freezing, it was not very good conditions.

[01:09:48] Bianca: He doesn't get to live, he doesn't get to experience any of these things, so I've gotta fucking keep going. And the money as well the funds we raised also in my mind helped me [01:10:00] keep going. But what was really life changing was that our friend was right everyone is there for a reason. And there were some people that had tops to do with brain cancer. There were all sorts of people. 'cause you can choose which charity you raise money for. And there was just this energy in us all suffering up this bloody mountain that we were all suffering for something we were all experiencing immense emotional pain and physical, but we were all doing it together. It was really, it's really hard to explain. There was a guy that we kind of, sometimes we'd overtake and then he'd overtake us and we kind of kept chopping and changing. And he had a 20 kilo backpack on and he had a sign to say 20 kilo backpack, and he was doing it for brain cancer and I remember saying to James like, that's what it feels like to carry grief is it feels like you've got this 20 kilo backpack on all the time.[01:11:00]

[01:11:24] Bianca: Yep. And I've gone on to do a couple of other sort of other races as well. And like James said before, they somehow help me access him. They somehow help me access Herb in a way you can't when you are not physically exerting yourself. I don't know if it's a spiritual realm or something, but

[01:11:53] James: And I remember walking to the start line of the M CG last year and I had really had no intention of [01:12:00] even race it until about three or four days out. But I remember walking there 5:30 AM with a really dear friend and I just burst into tears be because I'd opened myself up to particularly getting on board or connecting to Herb, but I had no expectation that that day, that's the way I'd feel. And I think it's by showing up and allowing yourself to, to fall apart, to be put back together.

[01:12:50] James: Mine was one a month.

[01:13:13] Bianca: I got jewelry well my friends very kindly gave me a, a beautiful bracelet with his birthstone on it and that kind of then propelled me to get all these other bits of jewelry. So I've got his footprint on a necklace. I've got the footprint ring for James. Candles, like all sorts of things. I got around the house to commemorate him helped. And then I went on the, on the, on the journey of tattooing myself with anything and everything to do with him. So I've got probably too many to go. Seven.

[01:13:52] Bianca: no, I have seven small tattoos that have significance to do with Herb, but I remember on my last [01:14:00] lot of just getting a couple of small ones. 'Cause I, I like to go to, there's a couple of tattoo artists in Hobart that I like to go to. And I remember driving home and I was getting upset thinking that I'm running out of things to tattoo about him because when you've only got two days in the hospital of a, of someone who's not breathing, you can't make new memories. You can't create new things. And so what we have are finite.

[01:14:38] Bianca: Yeah. I'm a bit sadistic. Masochistic maybe. I do like the pain of the tattoo and I do like the relief after. I've always liked that sort of pressure in life.

[01:15:41] James: how many tattoos do I have? Bianca

[01:16:39] Bianca: And for me, as I've already said, a lot of that was around the guilt and the shame. And just the processing of it all. I really needed to talk it through with someone who was completely third party and not have to dump it on on you or, or anyone else. It was really helpful. And I think that's what can be challenging [01:17:00] in grief when you experience it with someone else.

[01:17:27] Bianca: So perhaps after probably six months when there'd be a day when you weren't completely and utterly overwhelmed with grief and you sort of started to be able to navigate the world a bit better, there'd be some days where you would be completely derailed and be really feeling all the feels. But the other person wasn't.

[01:18:14] James: And in those blissful moments too, we, we both feel the same as there could be a moment where we're on a family holiday, four of us are on the beach, and it's just absolute and utter bliss.

[01:18:37] Bianca: That he's not here,

[01:18:49] James: The, the sense of it is, what do you mean you're in a blissful situation where you have the privilege of a family holiday and you've got these living children around you, and you've got your health and a cold beer and [01:19:00] happy days. What do you mean your brain's just jumped to this painful thought

[01:19:32] Bianca: So I inserted myself so much into so many situations in those early days where I'd see a woman with a pram, oh, that should be me, a pregnant woman, well that should be me, a woman with a baby, a family with a baby, a dad walking down the street with the baby carrier. I would just sob at seeing that because I wanted so much to see James with that.

[01:20:22] James: I saw it like three days ago. I'm at the coffee shop with Rani a mate's wife rocks up, two young boys, youngest the same age as Herb wrestling the whole time we are there just having so much fun and I see it and I look at how much joy they're having, but immediately my brain goes to that.

[01:20:51] Bianca: But I remember you, you didn't see that for months. I remember like it was months after and you're like, oh, I get it now. 'cause I used to say it all the [01:21:00] time and you're like, I finally get it. I felt it.

[01:21:10] James: But Herb was never a fantasy. Herb was a a living child.

[01:22:01] Bianca: And because I'd imagined it so much like the empty arm syndrome, like that's a physical phenomenon that they, that some research shows is true. My arms felt heavy for weeks after because I should have had a baby in my arms and he wasn't there. It's a bizarre thing to describe, but that empty arm thing was, was really a physical reminder for weeks.

[01:22:47] Bianca: And I used to think that was a linear trajectory of like, oh, that will just happen on the first year, maybe a little bit on the second year, and I'll be okay. But of course this year [01:23:00] I didn't cry in the classroom, but once we left the school grounds, I burst into tears. I was like, of course I'm gonna feel this. I'm gonna feel this every fucking time. Claude and Rani get to do things that Herb never gets to do.

[01:23:44] Bianca: Mm-hmm. The fantasizing of, what would he look like at one? Oh, now he's three and a bit.

[01:24:21] James: She has remained the same price for Claude over a seven to eight year period. She hasn't increased the price and Claude just goes up with the same denomination and she hasn't got the heart to tell him that was CPI in the current inflation rates. That what Claude was paying for a cupcake is probably now double

[01:24:49] Bianca: And I still get teary talking about it because not many people have the ability to imagine or to bring [01:25:00] your loss person into the present. And that brought him into the present for me.

[01:25:17] James: And for me, they constantly help me to the twos just tell me that herbs saying You're in exactly the right place, dad. Yeah. And that's my attachment to the twos.

[01:25:30] James: And the Lady Bird I found the other night, I had an absolute prick of a day, but I saw the Lady Bird in a space that it shouldn't have been in our bedroom on the second level.

[01:25:42] James: And it just said to me that. You're right dad. It's fine. And that's what I take from it. Yeah. Siblings. And the same as the kids biscuits. I ate the kids biscuits and I just, I just think about Herb.

[01:25:59] Bianca: And [01:26:00] it's just in those little, little moments. I think when people want to support someone around grief, it's in little pockets. It's in a, buying them a cup of coffee, surprising them with a biscuit, getting them a book that's made them think of their, their lost person. Or it's just a poem or a photo or a sunset, or it doesn't need to be in these really big grand and long things.

[01:27:16] Bianca: And I understand the discomfort, but my goodness did it it used to derail me. It used to get me so upset when people wouldn't acknowledge our loss. And kids just do it so bloody Well,

[01:27:47] James: Yep. It's, it, to me it just reminds how fucking enormous and painful, that's what happened to us.

[01:28:03] James: Well, not only Claude, but I, I think the number one thing, and I should have said it at the top, is, is Rani is, is the number one.

[01:28:11] James: And it's not by my design.

[01:28:22] Bianca: I know. And I find it, I'm reluctant though to give it as the number one thing. Because I remember thinking I don't have the strength to do it, and I really empathize with people and families and women that don't have the capacity or the physical ability to do it.

[01:28:59] James: [01:29:00] Oh, and the joy that she offers us an a day-to-day basis is for me, I look at her and, and sometimes go, shit, it feels like herb's in you.

[01:29:11] James: And we often joke that she's met Herb but we're fortunate enough and privileged to. To experience a third child.

[01:29:56] Bianca: I imagine life is as it is. [01:30:00] Then there's this channel that's on that is with Herb here and Herb healthy. So with two boys and not her, and that's really, it's confronting. Then I imagine the next channel is, herb is here, but he. He's not, well, he's severely disabled and that we are navigating that world. And life is completely different. And then there's this example of when they're all here, all three of them, and they're all he healthy and happy. And then there's, then there's another one where none of it happened. Like it's,

[01:30:46] James: But yeah, for me it's not as easy saying just, yeah, go and have another kid. But for you to be so brave and so courageous with even the thought of doing [01:31:00] it, I can't imagine some of the thoughts must have gone through your head with the third pregnancy in terms of how challenging it must have been. And the birth and everything, but yeah,

[01:31:36] Bianca: And I looked at the questions and I thought, oh my God, if I answered this whilst I was pregnant with her, I would've been extreme on every question, like my PTSD would've been if I was assessed at the time off the charts, like it was the second hardest thing I've ever had to do was get through that pregnancy second only to [01:32:00] saying goodbye to Herb for that final time.

[01:32:25] James: and to be in that mental space, in that situation. I just can't even fathom that strength and that thought,

[01:32:36] James: Like you wouldn't blame anyone to go, I'm never, ever want to feel this pain again and we were told that this won't happen to you again, but, but there was a chance.

[01:32:56] James: And to be told that essentially [01:33:00] categorically that it won't happen again. And I remember deep into Rani's pregnancy that you got a bit unwell and every alarm bell went off in my head I was like, you just told me this couldn't happen again.

[01:33:35] Bianca: And there's all sorts of different techniques. And some techniques are ideally meant to get you in the state of as if you were microdosing psychedelics. It's meant to get you in a different state of mind. And I had these sessions and I went into a place where I could smell him, I could touch him, like the smell of him was so clear and it hadn't been [01:34:00] like that since we'd left him in hospital and I just got this clarity. It was very powerful experience and I've only done a couple sessions. I'd love to do more. One more actually was seeing a medium. And I'm not spiritual at all. James is the one that is into the woo woo stuff and I got so much out of it. And yes, I am sometimes skeptical of these things and I still am, and I still went into those sessions thinking, oh, is what she's gonna say to me is just a matter of deduction of things. Maybe she's seen on my social media or whatnot, but some of the things this reading gave me and the things that she had to share with me. No one outside of James and I would know not, not a single soul. And I take a lot of comfort [01:35:00] from that. The things she said in that of the things that he said to her, I choose to believe and I choose for it to give me comfort.

[01:35:32] James: not necessarily. No. I guess it's just another avoidant behavior. Don't wanna feel how painful, even just discussing it might be.

[01:35:46] James: At least I'm consistent with all my behaviors. They're all avoidant.

[01:36:06] Bianca: It helped definitely. It gave us structure in the day and, and we had to show up for him.

[01:36:30] Bianca: Yeah. Having you and having the relationship that we do and the ability for us to communicate the way we do. Is probably the number one thing that's got got me through

[01:36:47] Bianca: and I think that's a really nice note to finish on. Thanks, James.

[01:36:52]

[01:37:29] Bianca: Her approach is characterized by authenticity and pragmaticism drawing from her varied life experiences.

[01:38:00] Bianca: Having stepped away from active research, Mai's passion project is science communication and can often be heard on ABC radio sharing mental health hacks. Originally from Denmark. She has called Tasmania Home since 1994. Beyond her professional pursuits, she enjoys engaging in outdoor adventures, endurance sports, and traveling both locally and abroad with her sons. Welcome Mai.

[01:38:23] Mai: Hello, Bianca.

[01:38:50] Bianca: Thank you. Where would you like to start with this one? Uh, I'm not sure how to ask the first question. I [01:39:00] suppose, what was the biggest takeaway for you? From my experience and James experience and perhaps the difference because we experience something unique together. I think as mothers and fathers, you you go through the whole process in a weird together way because for the female, you, you have to feel it all, you're physically going through all the changes through pregnancy and birth and breastfeeding and the resetting of your hormones and all that sort of stuff. Mm. And the, the, the dad's there for the whole trip, but they experience it so differently.

[01:39:44] Mai: I think also for background I think it's relevant to note that I put a two week pause on doing this discussion because after having listened to you and James and being a mom myself and listening to it during my luteal phase and just being so emotional and [01:40:00] you don't want that, you want me to provide my psychological professional opinion or, or whatever, or whatnot.

[01:40:57] Mai: And how there has to be space for people to [01:41:00] process stuff differently and experience stuff differently because we come to these things, we don't come to them. They're thrust on us with different skills and different baggage and different strengths and weaknesses, and when something like this happens that tests all of our resources we will pull the things that we're good at and try and bury the stuff that we know is going to not be helpful.

[01:41:43] Bianca: Which, can be, I think as a couple, quite frustrating, 'cause you tic-tac one might be coping and then one's not.

[01:42:34] Bianca: And I think that really highlights and exposes the loneliness of grief.

[01:42:41] Mai: And very much what you're talking about is individually, we have to work through this at our own pace. Where the friction or tension sometimes comes in a relationship like this is that we are not on the same page where normally everything that we do relies us being on the same page. And we are partners [01:43:00] in business, in parenting, in running a household, and all of a sudden we are not anymore. It's often when big things like this happens, it's how we cope through it or not that is a real turning point for couples and where I think, man, having all the support that you talked about that worked for you guys and just the fact that you had excellent communication skills to start with and going, well, let's build on that 'cause we had to. I, I really think is, is one of the key strengths that you guys had, just being able to continue being open with each other because you dunno what's happening on the inside of someone's mind, right? And whatever experience, the person that you knew before this event, you still don't know what this is going to do and how this is gonna sit. James used his own strategies, but just recognizing that you each need to do it and recognizing that you might be frustrated and pissed off and angry and resentful that [01:44:00] the other person isn't on the same journey or isn't able to support you and I think that's the one of the biggest things is you normally rely on this person for support and you often can't. Or as you say, it fluctuates right? When one's up, the other one can be down. And I think we naturally do this because we feel like we can let our guard down or be vulnerable if the other one's in a strong space. How do you decide that when something like this has happened?

[01:44:39] Mai: I feel like I need to do the interviewing.

[01:45:02] Mai: And I know for James it was running, it was throwing himself into manifesting the pain he was feeling in physical pain, and obviously both of you were feeling physical aches and pains and strain and all of that because of the stress you guys were under. You talk about massages being something that was an essential part of you getting through each day because it physically alleviated not just the physical tension of it, but it was a way of matching or at least going some way to kind of connect the psychological and then the bigger physical feeling and how important that is to actually connect you back to space when stuff was just, you didn't know where you were. And so for James that was the running was such a important part for him.

[01:46:34] Mai: So thankfully he had that. He had running.

[01:46:50] Bianca: At what point is it that people can talk about their trauma too much?

[01:47:38] Mai: My first question was what's the timeline? What, when was this beneficial for you?

[01:47:47] Bianca: Maybe even longer. Maybe the first six months, if someone gave me the moment to talk about it, I would give them every single blow. I would probably go too in depth [01:48:00] if they allowed me.

[01:48:05] Bianca: Better.

[01:48:12] Mai: That was, and again, a bit like James, I feel like what you were potentially doing was giving almost like a physical form to the chaos inside you. By expressing what had happened and all that I know that you really wanted to understand, so you've absolutely made the poor posty run laps and laps just to deliver books and stuff like that, because part of your coping was to understand, and I think all of us, it's part of the process is to understand as much as we can what happened, or unfortunately, sometimes why, and that can be a sticking point, but to try and to fill those gaps is therapeutic. And so for you, in being able to articulate, so you read all this stuff, but then articulated to others and I'm sure we'll talk [01:49:00] later on about the very different part of our brain that is, so we've got like this internal monologue or when we are reading and when we are processing is very different to when we're actually expressing it. So whether we are talking to someone, talk therapy or talking to friends, it's also talk therapy or if we're journaling, writing it down.

[01:50:02] Bianca: Yeah,

[01:50:45] Mai: Yes. And that's the, I think as we'll talk about in other episodes that that will come bite you on the bum.

[01:51:09] Mai: Then they can go, oh, insert emotion here. Because the other way of expressing what you've been through is to give your emotional, visceral response, but that's not socially appropriate. And so what you're left with is explaining what's happened. And I think in all the learning and all the bits and pieces, like the complexity of that, once you explain that complexity, it goes without saying that that was some seriously shit stuff.

[01:51:59] Mai: Knowing what you were [01:52:00] going through, you've picked your audience of someone who can sit with that. And because that's the other thing, we are feeling human beings and just sitting with someone face to face in the same presence we are mirroring chemicals within ourselves, right?

[01:52:30] Bianca: Yeah. I hadn't thought about it like that.

[01:52:53] Bianca: Can you talk me through a little bit about the differences there?

[01:53:35] Mai: And whether that talks to your different personalities, I don't know, but I think very much just the recognition that you had so much control, every bit of control removed from you. The bit that we hold onto is what we can control. And you see this so much in when I'm working with people and when I hear people say, I am a control freak or whatever else, it's just like a little note that goes into my mind to go, why? [01:54:00] What aspect of your life doesn't feel like you have controls to make you wanna control this bit. And I think parents are a really good example of that. You put routines, you think that you can have a routine for your kids sleep and all that sort of stuff. The reason we do that is because we have no control at the end of the day. They wake up when they want. And so we seek to understand stuff, to put routines in place so that we can try and control something and very much for you any semblance of knowledge or information that you could give, get to kind of feel like you were more control was, is what you sought after. And then James talks about later on after the initial storm, right. And his thing to control was to look after you and to do what he could to parent Claude and all that sort of stuff so that was something that he could hold onto. And then the more that he could see that things were, were moving on and things, and that's when he started like that numbing that, well, I could control that now. Now what am I [01:55:00] left with? And so the sort of freeze response that he had, because he wasn't yet, he did not yet have the capacity to deal with all that other stuff. So that's really interesting. And, you spoke about the way a couple copes through this, but even just us individuals, whether we're going through the same thing or not, depending on our internal resources and what we naturally go to to feel better will determine what we do about that.

[01:55:48] Mai: And so to be really gentle on ourselves and not judgmental of whatever coping mechanism we have used at the time. I find it such sense of comfort that naturally we will [01:56:00] go to whatever coping mechanism we can at the time. And if that's a freeze response, then that's what we're doing to cope in that moment.

[01:57:12] Bianca: Yep. And then to realize that there's this vast community and all manners of coping was, was really the the big part for me to grasp and to hold onto. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. And I guess that's a whole purpose of this, is to try to share those stories to make people feel less like however they've coped or coping was not bad. Not good. Not it just, it just is, isn't it?

[01:58:05] Mai: That's not realistic, I think. I think it should. If it was more realistic, it would be like a much more realistic story of overcoming grief and transitioning through that would be, I wanna say the Bridget Jones story if it's two hour movie, it needs to be an hour 45 minutes of her sitting on the couch eating ice cream, smoking and drinking. Then like the 15 minutes of her maybe just, I don't know, chancing upon someone in, I don't know, at a nightclub that that's much more realistic, I think. Yeah. But it doesn't make for good movies.

[01:58:53] Mai: And really I think that goes so much of the way and usually, unfortunately because of the system, they're [01:59:00] waiting a while before they come and see someone anyway. Or because they don't feel ready or the taboo around it, whatever. They don't come and talk to someone because they don't feel like they can until they're broken.

[01:59:26] Mai: I'm trying to keep walking the dog, and so they're doing the stuff you inherently, your body naturally wants to survive and. It generally knows what it needs.

[01:59:45] Bianca: Keep on doing what you're doing. It can sometimes be very a comforting confirmation.

[02:00:15] Mai: And so the assumption is that they're sharing the same experience, but they're not. And you look to the other person to mirror to have it mirrored in you how to cope and to. To have your needs met, if you like, because that's the deal when you sign up to be with someone.

[02:01:07] Mai: They can't see my hands, can they? I'm, I'm making kind of circles, which that doesn't anyway. So I think this is an absolute brutal reminder of actually you have to do this alone.

[02:01:35] Bianca: and that's the brutal truth of it , it's really hard to accept that you are the only person that can do the work. I wanted to ask you as well about how can you help create space for yourself, but give other people space?

[02:03:02] Bianca: Can you help me?

[02:03:46] Mai: You're not doing it alone. And that could be I recall a fantastic friend when I was having a bit of crap stuff happening and I remember them saying, you sound like crap. Come over the door's open. Have a sleep. [02:04:00] I'll be there at 12. We'll have a cup of tea, but you just need to sleep. You sound awful. And the sense of being seen, being just them holding space for me, not knowing that they didn't have to say anything or do anything. It was the recognition of I know that you are not okay and that's okay, and there is a safe space for you to not be okay and I'll be there when you are ready.

[02:05:06] Bianca: Mm. So it was those instead that would be like, I'm coming around or I'm dropping this off at your door. You don't need to come out, but it's gonna be at your door. Here's a meal, here's this. I'm gonna, I'm taking the kids here. I'm gonna come and get Claude so you can have an hour to yourself. It was showing up in a way that is an example of how you can give people space and not having to cook or not having to make a decision. I know that for, for me, making decisions was incredibly hard. I think I felt a bit of decision fatigue, particularly because of everything we had to go through with Herb and all the decisions we did have to make. So to just decide what to eat for dinner was impossible for me.

[02:06:08] Mai: I also think there's almost that sense of how's this important? I know that having a good, healthy meal is important, but I don't have the mental capacity for it. And why should I even be deciding that right now with everything that's going on?

[02:06:57] Mai: Because it no longer becomes [02:07:00] a two-way transaction. And so the friends or the people, and you talked about how it was really interesting, the people who could support or who came outta the woodworks who were able to hold that space and for other reasons, other people that you thought might have been able to, couldn't because of their own feelings, vulnerabilities in that space. So for those people to go, right, this is an example of where this doesn't need to be two way transactional. We are giving to you. There is no expectation or obligation you give back. And so for you to be able to, for you not even, to have to worry about having the negotiation for that just to be given and also to know that you've held, they've held space for you,

[02:08:11] Mai: And even the other way of thinking about it is it's not further draining you. We talk about people being taps or batteries, and so we know that. We know the friends that we have where it's like, oh, I don't wanna see them because they're draining or whatever. And we love hanging out with the people who charge us up, but when you are going through some big shit, then you can't give and for someone to recognize that and to give to you, to boost you up without any expectation of you having to give back at the moment there is so much safety and comfort and love. I think also there is an unsaid, you know that this is temporary and it might even be expressed you were there for us when this happened, so there is a sense that we are passing through this. We recognize that we've [02:09:00] got you. You're not alone.

[02:09:08] Bianca: it reminds me of, and I forgive me for not remembering who quotes this it's on a podcast about how you should have sort of three types of relationships. One is savings. People that you walk away going, oh, I feel really good they filled my cup and then there's neutral the ones that it's not taking out of your cup, but not necessarily giving. And then the ones that are taxing and you walk away going, Ooh, okay, I won't see them for another few months now they've just zapped me. And I think it's doubling down in those really tough times to the people that do give you savings.

[02:10:16] Mai: So if we talk about self-maintenance and the dishwasher and ensuring that we're actually functioning so that we can just be and do and survive. Part of that maintenance is actually to check in with ourselves to do both a body and mental scan, if you like to be able to actually have a sense of what we have capacity to do today.

[02:10:56] Mai: So even just having that space every day to check [02:11:00] in, and this comes with the zero judgment space, right? I think sometimes when something like this happens, we have different people enter our life or other people that we might have expected coming into our life haven't, we don't know what they're going through and they might not have the capacity to give in that time, and that's okay. And so if everyone just checked in and was conscious of everyone else checking into themselves and having zero judgment around that then I think li our lives would be a little bit easier but we're also human.

[02:11:59] Bianca: And they're like, [02:12:00] Hmm, no, I've already spent my tickets. Mm-hmm. I need to check in with myself. And I've realized when I organize too many social things, I leave actually sometimes feeling. I dunno when I'm not gonna not be seen. I dunno when a social interaction is gonna leave me going, oh, they haven't recognized where I'm at.

[02:12:45] Bianca: But I mean, that took a while. Yeah, that, that definitely took me some time to realize that, oh God, all these catch ups with people, because I thought that was healthy. I thought that was good for me to get out of the house and go and see a friend. But I would leave and I'd come home and I'd be [02:13:00] shattered or I'd be really, I'd just be really upset. I'd be really emotional. I'd be like on the floor, sort of like grief, and I knew that I just needed to recoup and just spend the day with myself or James or just at home the next day. So yeah,

[02:13:30] Mai: Is to coach them if they don't already know on how to check in with themselves because I don't know what they need. But unfortunately many of us don't have that skill or have had to go through stuff to develop that skill of, no, I need to put myself first. And again, I think it's a societal and cultural thing of we are a lot of us, I think there's a shift, but there's a lot of us, we are modelled to give, to be givers, because it's seen as being the good right thing to do, to give to other [02:14:00] people at the expense of yourself if necessary. So one of the best things I can do for someone is to help give them the skills, and one of those is actually just creating space in your day to check in with yourself to see what you need and then go from there. And absolutely, as you say if you check in with yourself that morning and go, I can't, I can't, it's not fair on that person. It's not fair on myself. It's not fair on, on the people that rely on me for me to force myself to go to this interaction when I know that there is the potential.

[02:14:46] Mai: So if you don't feel like there's enough buffer there, then don't do the thing that could potentially tip you. The other important teaching lesson, whatever, or uh, awareness to have, as well as giving yourself that space [02:15:00] to check in, which can be super uncomfortable, especially if you got really, really good at not feeling and pushing those feelings away.

[02:15:35] Mai: We, we have the capacity to think about how we think and that really can trip us up. Sometimes it's great, but it can also really trip us up. And so when we are scanning and checking in with ourselves to be aware that of primary emotions and secondary emotions. Our primary emotions are, okay, I'm checking in with myself.

[02:16:16] Mai: Why can't I get up and do something? Why am I constantly feeling like melancholy or, oh, I should be tough enough to get through this. Why I'm so useless? Like, why can't I, I'm so annoyed, or, oh, I'm afraid that I've been here before. Is this me relapsing back into depression?

[02:16:57] Bianca: don't give them the power.

[02:17:02] Mai: Absolutely and I think that is such a good reminder just 'cause we have a thought doesn't make it fact.

[02:17:28] Mai: The pleasure's been all mine. Thank you. It's an amazing gift you're giving to other people.

[02:17:33]

[02:17:50] Bianca: Before we wrap up, I'd just like to mention that whilst I do have a degree in behavioral science and have spent years educating myself and researching the topics of trauma and mental health, I'm [02:18:00] not a licensed therapist, counselor, or psychologist. Everything I share here is based on personal experience and things I've learnt through education.

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