All disciple parents dream and pray for their kids to become faithful Christians. There have been many classes taught on how to help your kids become disciples but what about after they get baptized? What do you do then? Should and how does your parenting change? Dave & Deb Eskew help provide great wisdom from biblical principles and experience on parenting after your kid makes Jesus Lord of their lives.

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OC Church of Christ

Welcome to the stronger family, stronger church podcasts as usual.

I'm Marcel hall with my wife, Karina.

And, uh, we have this podcast because we believe if we have stronger families,

you will have a stronger church.

And so in the stronger family, stronger church podcast, we aim to

equip parents of all ages with tips and resources to grow godly families.

Today's topic is titled after baptism.

Now what?

And so if you have a child who has been baptized, what do you do now?

If your child has not been baptized yet, this will help prepare you.

And so we are so excited to have, , some guests with us that we're gonna talk

with Dave and dev Esk, a great couple with a great family who we love

so, so much and used to be here in orange county, but we'll go ahead and

allow them to introduce themselves.

So Dave and Deb, can you guys, uh, please introduce yourselves

you bet.

Thanks.

Marcel.

Just love you and Korean, the kids so much.

It's so great to be together this way again, but, uh, as Marcel said, we are

Dave and Deb and, uh, we were married.

Gosh, about 31 some odd years ago in 1991.

Um, just after graduation from college, we both became disciples

as freshman in college in 1988 as part of the Chicago church.

And then shortly after that, moved out to LA and then orange county for about

25 years or so, that was gonna share a little bit about our girls and our family.

So

we have two adult daughters.

Our oldest daughter is 26 and she's been married for two years.

Our youngest is 25 and has been married for two months.

So both girls were baptized between the summer of eighth grade and ninth grade.

And then after college, um, both girls ended up marrying great disciples here

in the Nova church, uh, Northern Virginia Haley and she's in the biomedical

field and her and her husband lead the young professional's ministry.

Sydney is a middle school math teacher and is 18 leader here.

Fantastic.

So it's just such a blessing to be around our adult children again.

Um, Haley went off from high school there in orange county to, uh,

campus administrator of Georgia.

And I know the halls don't wanna hear it, but her younger daughter, Sydney then

went up the road to UCLA, um, enjoyed the campus ministry there, but, uh, just so,

so grateful, um, to have these two great daughters and now two great sons as well.

Uh, as Deb mentioned, we live in Northern Virginia, a little town called

Leesburg about an hour west of DC.

Um, Deb works as a project manager for a podcast and I'm in it, uh, been

doing project management work there for a couple decades or so, but again,

just super excited to be with Marre.

I love what they're doing here, and hopefully we'll be able

to share some things today.

It'll be helpful.

Maybe some mistakes we've made along the way, but just grateful to be with you all.

Thank you, Dave and Deb, we really appreciate you being here.

We know, uh, that we have a lot to glean from you and

your experience, so thank you.

And yes, we, uh, Do try to forget that send you went over

to UCLA but here we are here.

We are still friends.

Uh, so that's right.

I wanted to start off, you know, there's a lot of talk, uh, and

training about parenting, but it's typically parenting, um, your child

before they become Christians or how to help them become Christians.

And not as much after your child makes a decision to get

baptized and become a Christian.

Is there a difference in parenting before or, and after your kid gets baptized?

And if so, what are some of those key differences?

That's a great question.

And absolutely there definitely are differences, you know, pre

and post baptism, if you will.

And I would say that it also depend.

A little bit, maybe on the age at which they get baptized, our

girls were just barely 13 or 14.

And so they were just heading into high school.

And so we still had a long runway with them in the home and a lot

of time with them as teenagers, you know, that would be different.

I think maybe if they were seniors and were 18 or getting ready to head out a

house, but definitely after baptism, I would say that our expectations we'll

maybe talk more about this in a minute.

Our expectations, I think definitely can and should change right when our, after

our kids are baptized, but we also still need to remember, they are still teenagers

and maybe young teenagers at that.

And so I think all of us, right, as disciples in our thirties, forties and

fifties, we know we still make a ton of mistakes and, you know, we're all a

work in progress and need God's grace a tremendous amount, even more so right.

For a 13 or 14 year old, even if they have the holy spirit.

Right.

Um, and so I do think it's that balance of figuring out.

There is an appropriate level of expectation.

That should be different right now that they're baptized disciple, but still

recognizing they're still growing up, figuring out life hormones are raging.

Life is tough in high school, as we know.

Um, and I would also say that hopefully right, as our kids become disciples

and are baptized that they've been living as a discipler learning to

live as a disciple in that process.

Right.

So it's not like on Monday, they're not a disciple and on Tuesday they're

baptized and Wednesday, they're a completely different person, right?

Like it's, it's a, just a, a spectrum, right?

It's a transition that they go through.

The one thing I would say maybe more than ever, is that your example,

our example is parents after their baptized is more important than ever.

Right.

I think our example as parents is maybe the most important thing at any time in

our parenting, but now that they're at disciple, And they've been taught what

self denial looks like they've been taught, what evangelism looks like.

They've been taught about the cross.

They've been taught about the importance of a relationship with God.

If they don't see that in mom and dad, again, not perfection.

Right.

But if they don't see that consistently mom and dad, that

creates just a huge disconnect.

Right.

And, and they wrestle with that because they still look

that so much for their example.

And I think the other thing is realizing, okay, they do have the

spirit now and their insight into the family dynamics are really important.

Like to be able to ask them what they see, what impacts them, like things that

they see in the family that could help.

And I know like our kids, I would ask 'em all the time, like, okay, how did

do you think I was talking to dad?

Okay.

with my tone or my, you know, and the kids were very honest and they're like,

I think that was pretty disrespectful.

You know, things you don't necessarily wanna hear, but I do think the

other thing is realizing that the teen ministry can't be the ones

that are addressing the issues.

Like you can't just expect somebody else to parent your child.

Now that they're disciple that they've got someone mentoring or discipling them,

they aren't the be all end all that.

It is still a family dynamic and that we do need to expect humility

and repentance from our kids.

And so

what are some of the mistakes that some of us as parents make

after our kids get baptized?

That's a great question.

And I think, you know, we can just share from our own lives.

Right.

I think it's like, ecclesias right.

Like avoiding the extremes.

Right?

So on one side, there's the temptation, I think, to think.

Okay.

We had this long journey they've been baptized and now they're

gonna be a perfect disciple.

They're gonna have a two hour quiet time every morning.

They're gonna clean their room.

They're gonna evangelize every day.

They're never gonna talk back.

They're gonna get perfect grades.

They're gonna baptize all the neighbor, kids like, you

know, just that's ridiculous.

Right.

But like we have this heightened expectation, like too much, I think on the

flip side though, we could maybe go the other way and have too low of expectations

and, and not expect continued repentance and not expect to see a walk with God

and a different dynamic within the home.

And so it's probably us as parents recognizing, okay.

Which do I tend to, right.

Most of us have a bent one way or the other, right.

Where maybe a little over critical or maybe we're a little bit too lenient

and recognizing that that's probably gonna play out to post baptism.

I know for me, I was on the front end.

Right.

I expected.

I don't wanna say it like perfection, but I think that was my kind of type

a micromanaging Maik as a parent.

And so I needed to realize he's still 14 years old.

He's still figuring out life and to just have a ton of great and

a ton of merging that process.

I think the other thing I would say, maybe it's not a common mistake to avoid,

but just something that's so important is partnering with the team ministry.

And as Deb mentioned, we, we don't wanna rely on the team ministry or

the team leader or the mentors or whatever, but to partner well with them.

And maybe we'll talk about that a little bit more later, but really

seeing that it's so much of a team and, and taking in a good way, you

know, taking advantage of that.

Thank you.

And so,

and maybe you've already answered it right now.

So what are some things that we can do to avoid these type of mistakes?

I think this is where inviting people into our lives is so important.

Right?

And so we tried to cultivate a relationship with the girls mentors

and with the teen leaders where we tried as hard as we could to be an

open book and to ask, Hey, what do you see in our kids when we're not around?

What do you see in our family dynamic?

We, we had the privilege of having.

Haley's mentor and team leader live with us actually for a period of

time when she was transitioning from college into being married.

And so she saw everything good, bad, and ugly.

And I remember, you know, we would have kind of informal feedback times where she

would share things with us, but we also sat down at least once very formally.

And she brought her notebook and she had this list of things, right.

That she had experienced in the home and that she shared with us.

And you know, it, it was tough, right?

I mean, here's a 23 year old just outta college girl, not marriage yet.

Definitely no kids telling me things that I need to grow in as a parent,

but she was absolutely 100% spot on.

And so I was so grateful that I kind of had that, that insight.

And so I think inviting people, whether it's the teen mentor, the teen

leader, other adults in your life, hopefully we're creating this village.

And so people see you and your kids interacting and just being.

As best we can.

Cause I know it's hard, but as best we can just an open book and allowing

and inviting people in, because I know for me, I've got blind spots.

There's things I'm just efficient in and I don't always see it.

Uh, but having other sets of eyes can really, I think prevent

some of those in mistake.

And I do think having a lot of grace and mercy makes such a

difference just knowing that this is gonna ebb and flow, it's it.

You're gonna have great times.

You're gonna have bummer times but I do think allowing the kids to go

deeper by us, helping them to figure out, okay, what's a good book.

What's something I could read.

How do, like, how do I journal?

How do I PR and just spending those additional times teaching

and then even just asking them.

To teach you things and just say, Hey, when you have read

something, what have you learned?

Teach me.

And so not thinking we have to know everything also.

And just knowing that these expectations like go across the

board, that we're all always learning.

Thank

you.

You mentioned expectations earlier.

What are some reasonable expectations for yourself as a parent, but also for

your teen and as a whole for your family?

When a child gets

Baptiz.

I love that.

That's a great question.

Right.

And again, just, I've got a little bit of a list here of things I thought of, as I

was thinking about this, this question, but maybe overall that I will say maybe

what Deb said a minute ago, right?

Brace and mercy cover over all of it, right?

No, family's perfect.

No parents.

Perfect.

No, Tina's perfect.

And so there are things that we, I think should aspire to.

I think there's things we should try to get towards, but to never become

discouraged when it doesn't happen that day, or it doesn't happen that

week or have a, a tough season maybe.

Right.

Um, and so the things I thought of, right.

I mean, some of 'em sound very, like, of course, Dave sort of things, right.

But daily quiet times, right?

A daily walk with God, not only for the team, but obviously for everyone in

the home, but figuring out a way in our teen's schedules to make that happen.

Some of them may be at school at six 30.

Is it reasonable for them to get up at five, to have a quiet time?

Maybe not.

Our older daughter did our younger daughter with health and other.

She just couldn't.

So she made sure she spent time with God later in the day, having great

conversations as a family, over meals in the car, but really, you know, turning

off the phones, turning off the radio, turning off the TV, turning off all the

devices and just having a, an atmosphere where there's just constant talking

constant conversation, praying together, obviously with the kids every day.

Um, all of us as a family, right?

We're we're at midweek.

We're at Friday night activities, right?

We're at Sunday church, right?

I mean, obviously there's gonna be times when we're sick or on vacation,

perhaps, but that we are devoted as a family, as teenagers when the

body meets together, we're there.

Um, Doing everything we could do to have weekly family devotionals.

Right.

And if you can figure out a way to do it more than that, that's great.

But we, we try to do that every Monday night.

And sometimes they were long and glorious and wonderful.

And other times they had three tests the next day.

And it was, we sang a song and read averts and joked around a

bit and had a prayer and then got right back to what they were doing.

But it was a, it was a habit, it was a routine.

It was just an expectation that we had, um, having daughters.

Um, I tried to go on dates with them, at least, you know, about

every week, maybe every other week, depending on how busy life was.

Maybe it's just go out to get an ice cream or a bite to eat, or take the

dog for a long walk in the park, but just a little batty daughter time.

And of course, you know, the different dynamics would play out

there with, with other families, um, expecting and facilitating.

I'd say weekly if possible time with their mentors.

Um, I, I just can't tell you how grateful Deb and I are for the, the women that

invested in our daughters, um, the time that they spend and, and again, trying

to make that easy for them, right.

Trying to make the schedule as open as possible.

And then maybe lastly, and I'm probably sharing too much here, figuring out

a way as a family to be evangelistic.

Maybe it's having other families from school, into the home neighbors, you

know, a family from the soccer team, hosting the pizza party after the game,

doing whatever you can do, kind of in the busyness and framework of your

life to be hospitable and to do that as a family and to have your kids see

that that is a part of what you do.

And I think another

thing is expecting communication.

This is so hard cuz when a team gets you get in the car after school

and you're like, how was your day?

Fine.

They don't wanna talk, you know what I mean?

And so then you get some that are chatty and some that don't wanna talk.

And so I think being able to realize that we need to expect

them to be able to communicate.

And part of that expectation could be saying, I'm not ready to talk right now.

Can we talk later?

I need to, I need some downtime.

I'm not in a great place, like, but that's communication in and of itself

and not just shutting people down and not having any communication.

And so being able to figure out when, and kind of like when you're

married, you figure out, okay.

I used to bring things up with Dave right before bed.

He's like, this is not a good time.

This isn't a good time.

And so he had to train me this isn't a good time.

So sometimes our kids would be great when they get on their way home from school.

And sometimes they're like, this isn't a good time for me.

I need some downtime.

So being able to expect communication is huge, but they

also may need to be trained.

And sometimes it's us cuz we're aggressive and we're like, we'd

start doing the 20 questions.

Well, what do you mean had a bad day?

Why'd you have a bad day?

Who, what, what was it?

And, and we can't stop.

And so being able to have that, have them be able to expect us

to learn how to listen to them.

And when they say they're not ready, they're not ready, but

sometimes it's, we're the problem.

Yeah.

And so obviously there's a tricky balance and this is why I'm so

grateful for this conversation.

Cause the expectation that you guys are referring one by the communication,

but also even when you said Dave about expecting quiet times, not

only for ourselves, but for them.

Part of the challenge.

Right.

And especially for some of our parents, okay.

They're supposed to do it on their own.

They're baptized.

Now they should have their own desire.

But yet I know I still need the help.

So maybe you can maybe put, expand a little bit more on that, on how to

have that healthy expectation or to communicate expectations in the right way.

Yeah.

You be, I've got maybe just a quick thought and then Deb probably has always

has better answers than me, I would say.

Right.

Every kid is different.

Like our older one, I don't remember what year it was, but she came back

from youth camp and she just decided she was gonna have a quiet time every day.

And you know, 15 years later she's still rolling.

So with her, there wasn't a whole lot of accountability or expectations or follow

up, you know, or anything like that.

It was more ministering to her heart to make sure.

It wasn't done out of legalism that it wasn't done with kind of a fair SAC

spirit, that she was just falling in love with God more and more all the time.

The younger one, again, partly because of her health challenges and

all the time it took to manage that.

But partly just how she was wired.

It was a little tougher.

And I think we recognized pretty quickly that, you know, Sydney waking up at

five in the morning to spend time with God, just that wasn't gonna happen.

But maybe what we could do is have a good talk over breakfast

on the way out the door.

Deb would pray with her on the way to school or later on when they were

older, Haley and Sydney would pray together perhaps on the way to school.

And then just trying to carve out time in her schedule later on in the

afternoon to say, Hey honey, before you, you know, go on YouTube or before

you relax and watch a little bit of TV.

Have you spent some time with God, you know, and just, and,

and, and not every day, maybe.

Right.

And sometimes it might be me.

Sometimes it might be Deb.

Sometimes it might be, Hey honey, I'm taking, I slept in today.

I'm gonna take a late afternoon prayer walk.

Do you wanna come with me?

You know, or maybe mom's having a late afternoon cup of coffee and reading

and you'll Sydney, you would plop down next to, and they'd read together.

So just trying to figure out based on each kid's personality, kind of their

bent, their schedule, what works, what, and then obviously what doesn't too.

So Deb, what else would you add?

I probably put

your, that.

I'll tell you this when they don't have one, they feel guilty.

And so then sometimes the guilt then prevents them from wanting

to do it because now I already feel bad that I did do it.

And it's an honor.

And so I think there's these vicious cycles that they can get into.

Cuz then when you ask 'em and they're already feeling guilty now they're

accused now I'm defensive now, why are you always on my case about this?

And so it, it takes the time to be able figure out, okay, how we need

to study our kids enough to know does asking them questions, frustrate

them, irritate them, whatever versus saying, Hey, I'm reading this.

Would you like to read with me?

You may have already read today.

Did you already cuz I I'm happy to help either way.

And also then being able to ask them, Hey, I care about your life

spiritually and it doesn't seem like it's coming easy for you right now.

Is there something I could do that would help is am I doing something

that hurts and is preventing you, you know, have I made your schedule?

Cause sometimes I think Satan's greatest tool is making us too busy.

And so the kids feel like I don't have time.

I don't, I don't have time.

And if they don't have time to have time with God, then they're too busy.

And so being able to figure those things out, but I do think it just takes a lot

of studying our kids to know what's gonna work for them and being able to help them

come up with a plan cuz their heart is to want to want it, but they can't get there.

And so I don't know if you guys have done that, whether it be going

to the gym or something else, it's like, I want to want it, but I don't

so like helping them to get there.

And I would say maybe too, just something I thought of.

This is an easy chapter to fall into.

And I'm sure I did many times.

It's like, it's less about, Hey, have you had your quiet time today and more

as a parent taking a short, medium and long trained view to help my child to

really continue to fall in love with God.

Right?

Cause that's the point of our quiet times is to get to know God, fall in

love with him and yes, learn what he has in store for my life and the rights and

the wrongs and the dos and the don'ts.

But it's really just spending time with someone I love and

kids are different, right?

Like Haley loved to go to the beach.

That was kind of her special thing with God Sydney.

Not so much.

Haley would love to journal Sydney that wasn't her thing.

Right?

Some kids are gonna connect to God through music.

Some kids are gonna connect to God through watching videos in the

Bible project or the ban of podcast, or if they're a little bit older.

Right.

So figuring out.

What it is and make it less about, have you had your quiet time today

and more about as a family, we just love God and we figure out

different ways to spend time with it.

Really good stuff.

You mentioned partnering with, uh, the mentors in their

lives and having a village.

How did you handle working with the teen ministry, the mentors and the teen leaders

to help your children grow in Christ?

Yeah, that's a great question.

And again, you know, as I mentioned, I'm so just eternally grateful for

all the people you guys included.

Who've invested in our children over the years, and I think

it's some simple things, right?

I think expressing gratitude.

So you've got folks that are volunteering to spend time with your kid, and

yes, you may have some that are in the full-time ministry, but they are

still spending time with your child.

Right.

And just.

Always, always, always communicating gratitude.

And we tried to feed, feed them and have them over, just made them

try to make them part of our life.

So it wasn't just like, okay, I'm dropping my kid off with you for 90

minutes and I'll come get 'em in a minute after I go to Costco and come back.

But it's like trying to be partners, I guess maybe that would be the

world, but it's a, it's a partnership.

It's not an outsourcing arrangement, but it's a partnership that you

have with the team mentors, with the team leaders, making their jobs,

if you will, as easy as possible.

Um, not hovering, right?

I mean, that was one of my, you know, I'm like, okay, what about this?

Or what about that?

And I just needed to take a huge step back, right.

And trust, you know what?

God's gonna figure that.

If there's something that I'm seeing that I feel like I should be great.

If the mentor could speak to that, that's gonna sort that out.

I don't need to send a text every three minutes asking them,

Hey, can you bring this up?

You know, that sort of thing.

And then I think what we mentioned earlier, asking for input, making

sure that even if it's a volunteer campus, student mentoring, your son or

daughter, that he, or she feels like, you know what I can tell Dave that he

needs to back off and he's being too type a and he's stressing his kids out.

Like that's okay.

And hearing that and owning that.

And just, again, maybe partnership is an overused word, but like

that's in my mind, like how ideally, hopefully it went most of the time.

And I think one huge thing is not criticizing the teen

ministry in front of your children.

The more we talk negatively that we may see something.

That we need to address with our spouse or with the leader, do

not criticize the teen ministry.

Like, I don't know why they're having this activity.

I don't know why they're going over.

Like that does not help the team.

And they are not mature enough to understand that you may be venting.

You're criticizing, really does impact them in a negative way.

And I think that goes through with the church.

And why does the church have the Friday night activity or the third

I'd rather do you know the things that go through our mind, work them out in

other areas, not in front of your teen.

And I do think the other thing is giving the teen ministry

the benefit of the doubt.

Like they didn't intentionally do something to hurt your kid that, or they

forgot your kid or they left like that.

It is never an intentional thing that someone's trying to hurt you or to make

you feel, be like, Give the ministry, the benefit of the doubt, have the

conversations, work it out, get resolved.

Don't allow bitterness to grow inside your heart because of something that happened.

Get resolved.

Even if it's an uncomfortable conversation in the long run, it helps your kid

now ask good stuff.

And I'm glad we're able to practice that now with you guys having brewing

ties and all that stuff that , we don't, we're assuming the best.

Let it go, man.

Let it go.

There you go.

so lemme ask you this.

Can you share how you guys handled the times when one of your baptized

children struggled spiritually?

All right, so I'll go cuz they're girls.

And so I ended up dealing with it a little bit more, I think, than Dave.

Um, so one of our girls has a really hard time, um, emotionally

and stresses out and gets anxious.

And so it is.

Like that keeps them can keep them from feeling close to God, cuz

he's not like it, it, it's not meeting their needs emotionally.

And so being able to realize that I can't, I don't need to overreact, like

our kids are gonna have ups and downs.

And if we, when they start struggling, we go into full press.

Oh my gosh, we gotta D like, they will react to our strong reaction.

And so it, and we can push them even further away, like being

able to realize that when they struggle, it is part of life.

Like that is how they will learn and fight.

Now, if they're in a real bad place.

And, uh, like with Sid, like she, her inconsistency was a, a problem, which

she was talking about really like.

That's just who she was.

She was like, let me do the, the minimal, like what, what

do I have to do to be okay?

You know what I mean?

Whereas Haley was the aggressor and the, I gotta overachieve,

Sid was on the other end.

And so for her, it was trying to help her feel like she could be successful,

even if it wasn't the exact same time.

Cuz what happens, kids can compare themselves and we, as families can

compare ourselves to other people's kids and we're like, how come their

kids doing better than my kid or what?

And it is there.

If you compare yourself to people.

Or you compare your kid to somebody else's kid.

There are always gonna be kids that are doing better, and there are always

gonna be kids that are doing worse.

So there is no benefit to having that comparison, cuz you're gonna either feel

inferior or superior neither one or good.

And so being able to realize my kid is gonna have their struggles.

So like we prayed about their struggles.

We prayed, I prayed, please don't let their struggle be an addiction.

Please don't let their struggle be.

You know what I mean?

Something that is life altering.

So we prayed specifically about what sins our kids would be having because of their

nature, because every kid has a sinful nature and every kid is gonna struggle.

So we did pray.

I specifically, I prayed very specifically what I didn't want their nature to be.

I knew that they were gonna deal with pride or some, you know what I mean?

Like I knew those things and so.

I think that makes a big difference.

And then also the pride of like one of our girls, Haley had pride and

selfishness and like, she was rebellious.

Like it was the difference between the two kids SIDS.

Like I'm not gonna do it unless I get permission.

And Haley's like, I'll apologize later.

Like it was just the difference between their personalities.

And so being able to realize, I need to know how to work with her sinful nature

and be able to realize, okay, I need to figure out how I'm gonna respond.

Not necessarily I can't fix them.

I'm not gonna fix anything.

But when our kids struggle, it's like, okay, what am I gonna do to

pray about this, work through this and not aggressively go after.

I dunno if Dave's got something on that

one.

Yeah.

I think for me, I can maybe share maybe how I wouldn't do a great job on this.

I think what I would see my kids wrestle with something.

I went to a place of fear, right?

It was okay.

Sid has had a quiet time for two or three days or Haley and Deb just

went at it again and were yelling at each other in the kitchen, whatever,

whatever it was right in the moment.

And in my head, I could go from there to them falling away from

God and hating God in the church in about 20 seconds in my head.

And so then that fear and then that anxiety would lead me then to

trying to control the situation.

Right.

And maybe getting angry or getting all type a or whatever it was.

And so I had to just talk, right?

Like I had to talk to the other, married men in my life and, you know,

After midweek over a beer, you know, or barbecue or appetizers or whatever, and

just, just share and again, protecting the kids' dignity and being smart

about the specifics and all that, but basically just sharing my stuff right.

And getting their perspective.

They knew me, they knew our family.

And so they would either be able to say, Dave, you just need to relax.

It's gonna be okay.

Or maybe I went the other way, maybe where my fear took me

was I just wanted to avoid it.

Didn't wanna deal with it.

I didn't wanna think about it.

And so they said, you know what, Dave, you need to, you need to

dig into this one a little bit.

Right.

And so again, I think partnering with the other people in your life, partnering

with the people in your kids' lives.

Um, but I think maybe knowing ourselves as parents, right.

If we go to a place of fear and if so, then where does that take us?

Um, but to Deb's point, just like all of us, our kids are gonna struggle

and it may seem in the moment like.

This one's really bad and it gets super scary.

It's super discouraging, but God's got 'em right.

God's got a plan.

And I think for us, again, maybe just avoiding extremes is maybe another

thought on that one, but it's tough.

Mm-hmm you, don't like seeing our kids hurt for sure.

Now that the, now that the girls are older and you're able to

look back so to speak, uh, how does the relationship change as they get older,

as disciples and as they become adults, how should it, how does it change?

How did you see it change and how did your parenting change?

That's a great question.

And, you know, I qualify all of this right.

With, we're just a huge work in progress.

Right.

I made mistakes when they were 10 and I make mistakes.

Now that they're 26.

Right.

Um, but I think it's about.

I mean, the words that come to mind is that you go from, go from a place

of like positional authority, like I'm dad, and you're three years old and I'm

protecting you or I'm dad and you're 14 and I'm still protecting you to I'm dad.

And you're 25, but it's relational.

It's not positional anymore, but yes, I'm, I will always be your dad.

You'll always be my little girl, but you're married now

you have a life of your own.

And so my influence should be more relational that we reason together that

we talk that we, I draw them out, that I listen, I circle back and it it's

less about do this and don't do that.

But, you know, creating a dynamic and creating a space where they can come

to you when they want advice or come to you when they want input, but not being

maybe so quick to, uh, give that advice.

Right.

Um, and so again, I just think it's.

And it doesn't change all of a sudden when they're 18, right?

Like that evolves even when they're in the home.

Right?

Like our parenting of Haley as an eighth grader is very different than parenting

of Haley as a senior in high school.

And obviously it's very different now, you know that she's 26 and has

been married for a couple years.

And so I think it's figuring out how to have the greatest influence.

But again, it's more about the, the relationship than I'm the parent.

And, you know, you must do what I say.

And I think it was harder when they go away to college cuz

you, they they're in your home.

You see what they're doing all the time and when they go off, then you're

like, uh, now what are they gonna do?

And, and then they don't always make good choices.

I was afraid half the time.

Haley's like, yeah, it's, it's like 10 o'clock at night.

She's like, Hey, I thought I'd call you.

I'm walking to campus.

I'm like, you're in downtown Atlanta.

Why are you out walking the streets alone at night?

And it would drive me crazy.

But so what I had to do is be able to say, okay, God, please protect

her, help her to make better choices.

But I didn't also wanna overreact too much.

Like I would give her my advi.

I'm like, please don't do that.

Can you have somebody walk with you?

But also being able to realize if I react strongly.

She is no longer gonna share these things with me.

And then I won't know all the dangerous situations she's putting herself in.

So how I react to my adult kid, I don't wanna overreact or shut 'em down.

I want them, I wanna know.

I don't, I'd rather not sometimes I don't necessarily really think I wanna

know, but I do wanna know everything that's going on in their life.

And if I shut them down, judge them come down harsh on something.

They will shut me out.

Their view of life is different kids.

These days, like young adults it's different than when I was young.

And so I can't even say well, when I was cause it's different, it's not the same.

So even as parents, we can't compare what we did in college to

what they're doing now in college, it's different, life is different.

And so being able to realize that I have to look at them as an adult.

They are gonna have to make some of their own mistakes.

I cannot protect them from everything, but I can give advice and especially

asking, asking in advance, would you be okay if I gave you some advice?

And if they say, no, I need to listen.

Like they're not open to it right now, me saying it is not gonna help.

So being able to act, ask them as an adult, would you like some input?

Would you like me to help you?

If they, if they're ready, they're not ready

now.

What are some tips for maintaining a godly focused home?

That's a good one.

Um, I mean the first thing I thought of was just healthy, consistent

spiritual routines, right?

And so we mentioned some of those earlier, and again, this, this applies

whether the kids are in your home or even, you know, as they leave the home,

but you're still connected to them.

But I think that there's a certain.

Safety or security or comfort in consistency, right?

Like we don't wanna get into ruts.

Right.

We don't want to get into legalistic routines or anything like that,

but I think the kids growing up and even now, like they look

forward to Monday night, family devotionals right now in our dynamic.

It's like Sunday night, they come over for dinner O oftentimes.

And so just kind of these spiritual, familial, emotional sort of

routines that they can rely on, um, I think is super helpful.

Um, the other thing, and again, for those of which, you know, that that's will ring

true for Deb, but maybe not, might not think that's for me is just a ton of fun.

A ton of laughter.

Like I think in our home with the kids were growing up, we were always laughing.

There was a lot of joy and again, life is hard for our kids.

They're under so much pressure at school, you know, to fit in, to be

popular, to be pretty, to make the right sports team, to make the great

grades, to go to the right college.

There is so much pressure our kids feel.

And then on top of that, if they're a disciple, well, now I have to have

my quiet times and I have to share my faith and I have to be different.

Like there's so much that weighs on them.

We just wanted our home to be, I guess, a spiritual place and all that,

but we just tried to make it fun.

Like we wanted it to be a place that they looked forward to being.

And in that.

That God's a part of that, right.

That you didn't have.

Okay.

It's fun time over here.

And then it's our God focus time over here that it was both things all the

time that, you know, we would sing in our family devotionals and we sounded

so bad that we would just have to stop singing, cuz we're laughing too hard.

That was okay.

Right.

And then sometimes we'd have really deep conversations and other times we'd play

games in our devotionals, but just trying to create a space where the kids just.

They had fun.

It was a break between the pressure of school that day, and then the

pressure of three hours of homework or the coach yelling at them at practice

or whatever it might have been.

And so I think that security kind of, and the comfort of routines,

but then just a ton of fun.

And I think the other thing is making and getting into a habit of

some traditions and allowing them to like things for them to look forward

to and making incredible memories.

So being able to figure out we wanted our home to be the happiest

place that they wanted to be.

It wasn't, they like, they're like, I wanna go to my friend's house.

It's better over there.

They're not yelling.

They're not, you know, so you want your home to be a Haven.

And so in doing that, like being able to talk regularly about how are we doing

and having those kind of conversations.

How are things, how are you feeling about things in the home and being

able to at, at any age, being able to have those conversations you

want, your kids' favorite place to be is being together as a family.

I love that.

So here's where it can get a little tricky.

How would you G how would you handle discipline when it

comes to your baptized team?

I mean, they're supposed to be perfect now, right?

right.

But would you please give us some tips on how to handle discipline of your baptized

team?

Yeah.

And so maybe it's is usually I could share some things not to do or share

some mistakes I made or along the way.

I think this wasn't a mistake I would, I may necessarily, but one

thing I would caution us against is don't do something that's going to.

For impede their repentance, so to speak, right?

So maybe they're just getting on your last nerve and you're like, fine.

You're grounded for a month.

And all of a sudden, you're not letting them go to teen devotional

on Friday night, or if there's a sleepover with a bunch of the teen

girls, you're not letting them go.

And so I think that kind of a discipline is actually counterproductive and

you think, well, they're having fun.

They like that.

Well, they need that.

That's actually gonna help them repent of whatever it is

you want to ground them for.

Right.

And so it may seem, of course you would do that, but like I know families

that have done that and I get it.

I don't, and a moment of frustration.

Like, I, I totally understand it, but I think figuring out something else.

Right.

And so I think the discipline, and I guess discipl applies whether they're baptized

or not, the discipline has to have impact.

Excuse me.

As a little kid, I would get grounded and they'd send me to my room.

Well, I was an only child and I was an introvert and I didn't like people.

So that was actually okay.

I didn't mind that at all.

Right.

Um, now for Deb that would've been a fate worse than death.

Right?

And so knowing you're a kid and figuring out, okay, what's gonna have impact.

It may be taking away the phone.

It may be no video games.

It may be maybe not you're taking away something, you're adding something.

You're adding chores.

You're adding something that, you know, they don't like, but a discipline in the

Bible says it's unpleasant at the time.

That's the point.

Um, and so again, but not just unpleasant from unpleasant in its

sake, but something that is gonna hopefully train their spirit.

And then I would say to, you know, don't discipline and anger.

Don't discipline in overreacting.

Right?

Sometimes you just need to take a step back.

Like you just heard something.

You're like, oh my gosh, So upset, you know, but I need to talk to my spouse.

I need to pray.

I may even get some input on this, but being, being thoughtful, you know,

again, not doing it, anger, being unified, I think following through right.

Sometimes as parents, right.

We, we come up with a discipline and we Institute it and then, you

know, we just, we're just fatigued or tired or we just kind of give in.

Right.

And so that trains our kids to know that they don't really mean

it and I'll, and I'll wait, I can wait 'em out and it'll be fine.

And so, again, but at the same time, like don't set yourself up fi I'm

gonna ground you for six months.

Well, that's ridiculous.

That's, you know, that's, that's not sustainable for you or them.

Right.

And so kind of coming up with something that honestly works for you too.

um, and again, reasoning explaining, right?

Not just dropping the hammer, so to speak.

And again, especially as they get older, you're having more of that relational

sort of discussion, as opposed to positional to where again, the goal,

right, like in Hebrews is to train our hearts, to soften our hearts.

So Deb admittedly was way better at this than I am.

So I should probably let her go first.

No, but I think one thing that is important is to disciple and or

discipline the heart behind the action.

Don't just look at what they did, figure out why they did it, because

that will help you to know how it, how should I discipline this?

Because they may have yelled.

But why did they, you know, or through a fit or they, but why did they do it?

Did had have, like, did you set them up for failure?

Like now they're they were hungry.

They came home from school and now I ask them, did you clean your room?

And they're like, quit asking, you know?

And it's like, okay.

I, I timing.

Wasn't like, I set them up to FA like their reaction wasn't the heart, but it

was, there was something else going on.

And so taking the time to figure out those things, and I think asking the

questions and helping them get there.

Why do you think you just did the why'd you punch your brother.

Okay.

He took something of yours.

Okay.

Let's figure out why, you know what I mean?

And it's figuring out what got them there.

And then having the consequences match the offense.

Over, you know what I mean?

If it was just a little thing, it's like, don't over punish 'em for something

that really, it didn't necessarily need punishment, but it really did need, okay.

You know what then why don't you help me do the dishes tonight?

You know, it's like, let's spend time together and let's talk it through.

And I think the other thing is realizing when our kids need discipline,

sometimes it's cuz they broke trust.

They lied to us and it's like, okay, helping them to

understand you have broken trust.

And it is hard for me.

Like I know you wanna go do this thing, but what you did when yesterday you broke

my trust and now it's gonna be hard.

I want to give, I want to trust you again, but you've made it

really difficult for me to do that.

And so helping them to realize their actions have consequences.

Some of those consequences are broken trust, which then

takes a lot of time to regain.

And so it's having these deeper conversations.

So they understand you are a human being that I hurt that I lied to.

I deceived now there's something I gotta deal with afterwards.

Yeah.

And I would just, maybe one quick thought too, is this is just another

one of those areas where inviting people into your life, right.

That it takes a village.

And so I would want men around me who knew my character, who knew my weaknesses, who

maybe didn't know the exact situation.

Again, you, there there's wisdom there and not sharing everything,

but like I wanted at least a handful of brothers that I could go to and

say, okay, hypothetical situation.

If daughter a did this to daughter B, what would you think.

Right.

And, and just, again, this whole idea of humility, I think

God just blesses that right.

When we don't know what to do when we invite other people in, I think

it just gives God space to work.

And so we don't have to feel like we have to figure it out on our own.

Um, but just it's that village.

I think that we can, you know, partner with really be a huge benefit.

Great.

That's good

stuff.

So let me ask you another question there.

What are you learning now about parenting baptized, married children?

Yeah.

So we're in the middle of it, right.

And so, you know, probably should have Jake and ed here and they

could answer that question for me.

Um, I think giving them space, um, kind of staying in my lane a little bit, like I've

had to learn that over and over and over and over again, whether they were growing

up in, in the home or when they went off to college or when they were single.

And now that they're married.

Knowing kind of, what's my role, what's my place.

And again, and it's the same now.

Like I'm needing to get advice from other people that have gone for me

that have been in this place that I am now, I think being available for them.

Right.

Like they will, they will come to me, mentioned it earlier, right.

About, you know, Hey, would you be open to a thought here, you know, about this

situation and not just offering it?

I think some of the same things, feeding them, encouraging them, loving them.

I think with my, just as my daughters are very different, their marriage

dynamics are very different.

My two sons-in-law are very different.

And so I've had a lifetime to study my girls and I'm still learning,

but I think maybe I've kind of got some of that figured out.

I is starting to understand my two sons-in-law and what encourages them

and what helps them feel loved and what helps them feel secure and what

helps them feel believed in by me.

Like I've never been a father-in-law before, right.

That's a new role for me.

And so learning from others that have been in that place.

And so again, it does feel like, you know, we're just, we're

constantly learning constantly needing to get help and get advice.

Um, but it's it, you're, you're, you're letting, I dunno if letting goes the

right way, but your, your role in their lives is constantly changing.

Um, and again, it becomes more about partnering and relational and walking

side by side as two adults, right.

And less about I'm your dad.

And therefore you shall listen to me sort of thing.

And

I do think it's important to realize our family is loud.

Like we're loud when we're together, we're loud.

And so having these two guys and they came from both of their husbands

are from families of three boys.

And so their mom was way outnumbered and their household was very

different than our household.

So when the boys come over, we're loud.

And so I always have to ask, I'm like, are you guys okay?

Like I know, and we make fun of each other and we laugh a lot.

And they're like, I don't know what's going on here.

These people are crazy.

And so realizing that they're experiencing our family, it can be a lot.

And so giving them extra grace and mercy, because they're coming into

a dynamic where the four of us have been together for 25 years and

we're, we're used to each other.

And so knowing that they're gonna need time to.

It's awkward for them to come in and be around girls and awkwardness and loudness

and so, and different foods and the way we eat versus the way, you know what I mean?

And so there's a whole lot of give and take and just, I ask a lot of questions.

Are you okay if we do this?

Is that okay?

Is that okay?

So being able to ask a lot of questions cuz I'm like, I don't

know, like how did your mom do this?

I don't know.

I don't wanna overdo it.

You know what I mean?

And so those kind of questions

and just, I think with the, the two guys, like, I just want

them to feel my two sons in-laws I want them to feel like, I just think

they're the greatest thing ever.

Right.

Cause I think even, I think there's gotta be, cuz I remember feeling it

a little bit toward Deb's dad, right?

There's there's, there's an insecurity as a young husband around

his father-in-law like that's a, that relationship can be tough.

And so I'm trying, and I don't know if I'm being successful, but I'm trying for

those two guys to feel like, I just think they're the greatest thing in the world.

Right.

And if they're, and you know, that they feel secure and that they can

make fun of me and poke jokes, you know, I want them to feel that.

And so we're, we're in the middle of it, you know, hopefully we're doing

okay, but I'm sure we're making mistakes as we go, but just trying to figure

out, um, it's not too different, I suppose, than when the kids were.

I want those place to be fun.

I want this to our home.

When they come over to be something that they look forward to, where they feel

accepted and encouraged, and that they're, they're the husband in that relationship

that I've given my daughter to them.

Like I did it in the wedding ceremony.

That was more than just figuratively.

That was real.

And they get to make the decisions now as a married couple and he leads the home.

It's not me anymore.

I've gotta let do that and let them feel that that's

would you mind sharing with us what you look back on and wish

you could have done differently?

Yeah.

I mean, there's a lot, right?

Maybe we should a little bit along the way.

I think that the two things that, um, come to mind for me, at least

in Deb price, some different ones is I had to do it over again.

I'd let the little things go.

Not everything is a capital offense.

Right.

And if the bed was a little bit messy or they left dish in the sink,

or they maybe gave me a little bit of a look when I asked them to do

something, you know what, that's okay.

They're 15 years old, they've got a lot going on.

And I think, you know, as I've shared before, I think whether it was

fear or pride or warrior, whatever I wanted things to be perfect.

And so I think I made a bigger deal at certain things that I

probably should have just let go.

And I think the second thing that, that stands out to me, and this was more

during high school, a little bit more so a little bit so in college, but definitely

during their high school years, And even before that, I suppose too, but I was way

too focused on their success and their achievement, whether it was academics.

Right.

How many AP classes they're in?

What are their S a T scores?

What's their GPA?

What colleges are they applying to?

Maybe it was on the athletic field.

Right?

What soccer club are you in?

Are you getting better and better?

Are you starting?

Okay.

What softball club are you in?

Are you gonna make varsity as a freshman?

Like, I, I, I fell into that trap right.

Of wanting to keep up with the Jones'.

I, I, I wanted, I think even at times to live vicariously through

my kids and I made success and achievement way too important.

And fortunately Deb was a great balance.

There were people in my life that would reel me in, I think God just kind of

protected the kid's spirit, but yeah, if I had to do it over again and I would

still want to be great students, right.

I'd still want 'em to do well in, in whatever they wanted to do from

an extracurricular perspective.

And so yes, to go to a great school and all of that, but I know in my

heart it was way too important.

And then that came out the way I

parented.

And I think, uh, one of the, the, I have a couple things, but one of 'em

is I would not have taken their sin.

Personally.

I, when they would sin, whether it be against me or their angry

or they, whatever it is, I would take it personally and I would get

offended and I would get angry or defensive, and that was not helpful.

And then because of that, then I would judge.

And they know they're being judged, which then makes them

more likely to be defensive.

And so, and I think it just was a bad cycle for me, um, taking, so I would

definitely not take things personally and just realize they're, they're an

individual and they gotta work this out.

This isn't about me.

And I could, I need to stop making it about me and how I'm responding or how I

feel about what they're choosing to do.

And so, and I think the other thing would be to try, and I did not put

myself in their shoes enough to think through how they felt, why are they

upset feeling thi why are they guilty?

Like putting myself in their shoes and just say, okay, this is where they're at.

This friend hurt their feelings.

This is why they're angry about this is why they don't wanna go to this activity.

This is why they don't want, like, trying to figure out.

What they felt and what their needs were versus just forcing them

to do what I thought was right.

And that they needed to do, but to understand why they didn't want

to, so that I could have helped disciple their heart or educate or

teach or whatever, versus just say, you just need to do it, suck it up.

Not that I always said that, but that was definitely how I felt.

And I'm sure that is how it came across.

Suck it up and just do what's right.

All

right.

So any other words of advice or practical tips that can help us out?

I mean, just maybe one quick thing I would say is, you know, never give up,

you know, I mean, whether your kids are baptized and they're doing great, or maybe

they're baptized and they're struggling a little bit, or they're not there yet.

All of our kids, all of us as adults, all of us are families.

We have seasons that are really hard.

Maybe those seasons last a couple months and you breeze right through it.

Maybe those seasons last a couple years.

Um, but I would just encourage all of us as parents to never give up.

God is always working and sometimes we don't see it.

One quick story.

It's not teen related necessarily.

I was just stable to study the Bible with a guy.

Um, and he recently got baptized.

He was first met 28 years ago and there's been a brother

in his life the entire time.

And so he pulled me in to lead the study just cuz he's too close.

But this brother has been a friend to this man for almost three decades.

He saw them get married.

He saw them raise their kids.

Their kids are now a senior in high school.

And graduating from college, traveled around the world, different careers.

He just was a friend to this man for 30 years.

And I'm sure there were moments where he was like, what, you

know, why am I still investing?

Why am I still trying all along?

God's working, God's working through the years.

And then boom,

a couple weeks ago he gets baptized and you see,

you see God work.

And I think the same thing can happen with our kids.

We invest, we invest, we love 'em so dearly.

Um, to the point of just losing our mind.

Sometimes we love, 'em so much working and God's got a plan and yeah, maybe they're

gonna give baptized when they're 14.

Maybe when they're 18, maybe when they're 25, maybe when they're

45, maybe even after we're gone as parents, but God is always working

and never, ever, ever give up.

The

one thing that Dave didn't share in that story is that that man, his

wife became a disciple 25 years ago.

She has been married to this man, not interested in God yet for 25 years,

their daughter at 16 became a disciple at 15, became a disciple before him.

And so like, God was working, but you just never know.

And so the wife could have just given up and just said, it's been 20 years.

It's been, you know, he's never gonna make it.

And so never given up on our kids and never given up on and whether

they come and they go, whatever, he had studied like eight times,

whatever, you know what I mean?

It just wasn't his time.

And so God's always working.

And so the other thing I was just gonna say is, remember that

this is a marathon, not a sprint.

And that short term, like short term goals, like someone can

do great in the short term.

They're like, but their kids doing great.

And it's.

You gotta look long term, like you're investing in your kids for the long haul,

don't just do it so that they can get become Christian right now in high school.

What it's you want them to last forever.

So however long it takes for them to make it, to have convictions, to get it.

That's what you want.

You want them to have that relationship with God that they just long to be

with him and that he is the one that they get their comfort from because

people are gonna come and go, you know, wherever they are, they may move it.

God will be consistent.

And so realizing you want the marathon, not the sprint.

Thank

you.

Thank you so much.

This has been a joy and a pleasure and, uh, just truly a treasure to, uh, have

the wisdom and experiences and insight that you guys have shared with us.

We are so, so grateful.

Uh, thank you so much.

Yes.

Thank you so much.

I loved hearing how you're learning still the humility that you ha are sharing and

saying we're still learning and also the vulnerability to be able to share the

things that maybe you wish, you could have done differently or that, , weren't always

perfect, but we can have a chance to learn from, so we thank you, , for sharing.

Thank you for, uh, being here with us and being willing to

let us into your family life.

Thank

you so much.

Appreciate it.

Love you guys.

Love you.

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on the link on the podcast player that you have, or in the notes section.

We also wanna let you know, we have a Facebook group of the same name,

stronger family, stronger church.

Check that out.

Lot of great articles on there to help you in your parenting regardless of

the age and some great material and content to share with your friends.

So join us next time for our next episode of our stronger