Today we have a special guest to talk about navigating the turbulent waters of heartbreak & betrayals, & the power of grief as a portal for healing & transformation. Sara Avant Stover just came out with her third book “Handbook for the Heartbroken.” We talk about her very personal & vulnerable journey from devastation to rebirth. This conversation is a beacon for anyone wanting to heal & transform from heartbreak. 

Listen in for an intimate look into:

• Sara's serial heartbreaks across all facets of her life 
• Learning her former fiance was living a duplicitous life
• The journey of overcoming heartbreaks & transforming from grief
• The power of internal family systems (IFS) in addressing deep-seated wounds
• Practical advice on moving from devastation to rebirth, featuring potent learnings, rituals, & practices that aid in emotional and spiritual recovery.

This episode is not just a dialogue; it's an invitation to understand the transformative potential of grief & the journey towards becoming the person you are meant to be. Whether you're dealing with a fresh wound or an old scar, Sara's story & Krista's parallel grief journey offer a pathway to healing and hope. Join us as we explore how to turn heartbreak into a foundation for profound personal growth & renewal.

Resources Mentioned: 

• Our Top 10 Relationship Agreements 
• Sara’s new book “Handbook for the Heartbroken”
• Sara’s IG account
• Sara’s podcast “Her Self”
• Krista on Sara’s podcast in 2017
• Episodes 78 & 79 on Duplicitous Lives
• IFS Richard Schwartz

Get in Touch: 

• The Art Of We Website
• 3 Game Changing Conversations Every Couple Must Have
• The Art of We Instagram 
• Integrative Psychiatry Institute: Mental Wellness & Psychedelic Therapy Training

Rate, Review & Follow on Apple Podcasts: 

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Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or on your favorite podcast platform. 

Krista Van Derveer 0:00

Sara Avant Stover 1:29

It's great to be here with you.

Krista Van Derveer 1:30

I'm just going to jump right in. And I'm going to get into your book because it is absolutely excellent. You just are coming out with your third book, as of the date of this release of this episode, it just came out two days ago. And I'm curious just to start here, how are you feeling about having birth this book into the world,

Sara Avant Stover 1:50

I feel really good about the book, you've been with me in this process of writing it in various ways. And it's been a really special creation to bring into the world. The living of it was very challenging, but we'll get into that and living of it was also just a very poignant experience, very life changing experience. And I'm grateful for the opportunity to write the book, I'm grateful for the opportunity to share it with people. And it's vulnerable. And it's a lie, you know, book launches a lot. And I'm introverted, I'm highly sensitive. So it's a lot for my kind of constitution to work with. And it's like I said, it's also an honor to have the chance to do it.

Krista Van Derveer 2:34

I want to go back to the word vulnerability. When I read your book, even though you had told me in advance, I wasn't expecting that it was going to be this kind of like, put everything out on the table. Everything every major event within a period of years you put out on the table, and I was just so in awe of you're willing to be vulnerable, you're willing to share all the things that you went through at the level you did in support to share with other people and support other people. I'd love for you to start by sharing a little bit about how you would describe what the book is about.

Sara Avant Stover 3:08

Krista Van Derveer 3:51

What I love about your book is that it does have these different life aspects to them. And we're gonna go into some of those. But it's really about how to work through any kind of heartbreak. And it was so meaningful for me to read your book, because after my previous partner suddenly died, it was the kind of heartbreak and grief that I thought was going to kill me. Like literally, I didn't know I was going to make it through. And in reading your book, your story of your own journey of these heartbreaks, and then now the tools that you share, to help get you through what helped get you through those heartbreaks and become who you are today. I felt like it was a very parallel journey for me, like I was reading the book. I was like, Oh my gosh, that worked for me too. But at the same time, there were things that I didn't have. I didn't have the tools at the time, and I didn't know about it at the time and I would have loved to know at the time. So yeah, so all of these different heartbreaks, and the memoir part where you take us into your own personal journeys. I couldn't put it down – so often I can't make it through a book at nighttime because I'm like falling asleep or whatever is happening. I got the book early so we could interview you. And I started getting through it way too fast, because I wanted it to be right before we interviewed and I was like, Oh my gosh, I have to put this down. I would love to hear which one of the heartbreaks out of the ones you just named was probably the hardest to go through.

Sara Avant Stover 5:15

Definitely the first one. The first one was like the first domino. And I don't feel like the other ones would have happened. Without the first one. Interesting.

Krista Van Derveer 5:24

Tell her people who are listening a little bit about that first heartbreak.

Sara Avant Stover 5:29

Krista Van Derveer 6:19

And that really begins the journey as you're saying for, did you say seven years of serial heartbreaks following that?

Sara Avant Stover 6:29

Yes, the next one came a couple of years later. But that first one in particular, just really took me down and debilitating shock, anxiety, mental rumination being up in the middle of the night, trying to process like what happened, running through memories in my mind, trying to track what really happened then pointing out, like parts of me pointing out all the times when he was lying to me, and also just trying to make sense of what my life had been over those years. Because it wasn't, wasn't what I thought I was living. And then also asking myself the hard questions of how did I get in the situation in the first place?

Krista Van Derveer 7:11

I yeah, I can only imagine what that would be like, on some level. I feel like the experience that you went through there is one of my biggest nightmares.

Sara Avant Stover 7:21

It was mine, too. And it's very humbling. And I'm sure you had one of your nightmares or worst nightmares come true to with Mark's sudden death, right. And there is a very humbling opportunity, in the experience of a worst nightmare coming true. It's kind of like those moments in our lives when we realize that we're not immortal, just realizing, Oh, this could happen to me too. Right?

Krista Van Derveer 7:50

Totally. I remember it took a long time. So I don't want to skip forward to assume that a grief process is very short. It's actually very long. And we'll probably talk more about that. But I remember once I kind of made it to the other side of realizing I would finally get off the floor. And I might survive this, this heartbreak, this tragedy. I remember once I actually kind of felt like I could see the light at the end of the tunnel of that process. I was like, Oh my gosh, if I went through that, I feel like I could go through anything, wondering if there was a similar experience for you. Totally.

Sara Avant Stover 8:21

That's how I feel now too. And that was also one of my intentions in writing this book, because that is one of the opportunities of heartbreak is it does expand our capacity, yes. For us to be with the challenges that we face in our lives. The challenges that are in the world right now, this is not an easy time to be human being on this planet. And it allows us to also have that capacity to be with other people when they're struggling.

Krista Van Derveer 8:46

Yeah, and I want to go back into this a little bit more if you're okay, talking about this very first heartbreak. I feel like there's so much relevant content in all of the book in terms of the art of we, and this particular instance of betrayal, or instances of betrayal, I guess it would be feels really relevant in part because we just did a two part series about looking at specifically a couple of men who have been publicly accused of living duplicitous lives where externally they everything's put together, but on their private lives, or their manipulating their lying, all these kinds of things. We'll put links in the show notes to anything we've heard referred to on this episode. But it's so interesting, because here you are as a person who was the victim of one of these types of relationships as I'm understanding it. And for me, I can't even imagine wrapping my head around how I would make meaning of that kind of realization that a partner had been lying to me. I thought I was living one way I wasn't. We weren't living that way, apparently. And you talk in your book about yellow flags and red flags. And so I feel like it's really important to speak to the inner knowing, disconnection that you speak about inside of the book and the red flags and the yellow flags for anybody who's listening who might be like, Okay. Is there incongruence? In my current relationship? And how can I tell what's actually happening. So if you'd be willing to talk a little bit about your journey of disconnection from inner knowing how you got back into inner knowing around these types of things in relationships?

Sure, a lot, I'll preface it by saying that no one who gets into these relationships intends to, and I didn't even have the concept of red flags and yellow flags. When I entered into this relationship, I had a lot more naivete, I was in my early 30s. And I had been in a couple longer term relationships prior to that, you know, they obviously didn't work out, but they were just normal relationships where we had our challenges, ultimately, we decided we weren't compatible, but nothing really damaging or disastrous. And so with that kind of mindset, I entered into this relationship, just thinking that this was like a normal dating situation. And it wasn't until hindsight that I was able to put the pieces together, and I was able to go back and see, oh, that's a red flag, that's a red flag. And it was just a few days after I found out about the betrayal, I was talking to one of my mentors, and she's the one who framed my former fiance like within this, that personality profile that we're talking about of duplicity. And when I started to read about that, I just a lot of the pieces started to snap into place. And I was able to kind of put a map on top of what my experience was. And to see that it wasn't just something that I was living. This is like a universal thing that many people live. And some of the red flags for me, are not feeling safe in my body. And especially in social situations, parties that we would both go to, and feeling a lot of anxiety and not feeling like myself, after a certain period of time, I'm starting to feel like I was shrinking. So it was like this pervasive feeling of lack of safety. And also I was having towards the last year or two, I was having nightmares. And I remember having one specific nightmare that still really vivid in my mind of him. And this, the main woman that he was, together with, and I told him about the stream the next morning, and I had actually talked to both of them about it because they were close friends. And they were both adamantly denying that anything could be happening and turning things back on me saying that I was being paranoid that I was just being jealous that I just need to accept that there are close friends and other people in the community were reflecting that too. And if I would voice, any sense of not feeling great about energetics that were that were happening. And so another pattern is like these types of relationships is blaming oneself, and having the other person also putting the blame on you diverting the focus and saying, This isn't me, this is you. And then just creates all this confusion, like being in this, like Hall of smoke and mirrors. And it's like, I don't like which way like which ways, which ways down, I don't know anymore. And so by those final months, I had type two diabetes, my hair was falling out. I just did not feel like myself, but I couldn't figure out why. But I thought it was something that I was doing. And I didn't think to look at that this could be coming from something happening in our relationship in our home that was causing my subconscious mind, through my body to be giving me these messages that I just wasn't getting.

And knowing you and also something that we really stand for on an RV podcast is the growth, growth oriented mindset, and taking responsibility for CO creating things. And in this circumstance, what I'm hearing is there was some gaslighting happening. And if I'm imagining you, and I'm in a growth minded orientation, and I can even feel this happening in previous relationships, like this subtle layers of this I can recall back to is if somebody's putting it back over here on me, and I stand for that growth oriented mindset then like okay, where do I need to grow? What do I need to do differently? What what parts of mine but younger parts of mine are so traumatized that they can't even see the truth here, some sort of language like that, and that would be very challenging for me, I would I would find myself in a very challenging moment, I could see how it could create a lot of confusion and a lot of probably insecurity inside of the relationship in some form. There's

There’s also this imbalance and vulnerability that I felt like I was constantly bringing forward my vulnerability and he wasn't and then it created this kind of power dynamic of like, the person who knows the person who's more mature has it more together, like talking to the person who's more vulnerable. And I think that also just created a strange atmosphere.

It’s almost like the other person is more healthy. And you needed more help, because you were less healthy.

Yes, like I'm the one that's just kind of messed up and needs to get things sorted out.

It sounds like such a hard and challenging journey to go through. And I want to circle back to relationships, more healthier relationships at the end of this episode, before we move on to other things, is there anything else you want to say about that particular time?

Well, I want to say that that's, you know, those were also things that I needed to look at on the other side of it. Like, why, why did I let myself get in that kind of power dynamic? Why did I negate my own inner knowing? Why I was listening to the voices of other people over my own? And those were all things that I had a huge opportunity to heal. On the other side of it, those were parts of me – young parts of me – that were subconsciously running my life, to the point that my life completely went off the rails. And so that was a really potent opportunity for healing that came in the guise of my worst nightmare. coming true.

Totally. And what answers did you come to? When you were asking those questions? Was it more of the internal family systems work that you were doing there? And if so, I'd love for you to speak a little bit to that aspect for the people who are listening.

Sure, yeah, I gratefully was first introduced to ifs right before all this happened. And I had my longtime mentor, since my mid 20s, was trained in ifs, and she's one who first introduced me to it and started using it in our sessions together. And I had a really powerful experience with it. And then when everything blew up, she really challenged me and said, I need to make this healing my number one priority. Because I think my tendency was to put my work or something like that first, because there was always big things happening. And then some of like, these bigger, bigger inner work pieces would not be at the forefront. But she was saying this really needs to be like the number one thing you need to be doing this every week, and just get to the root of, of these wounds. And I really, I heard her and I accepted the challenge. And I did that. And I really have ifs to credit for helping me to heal all the way those parts of me because I had done a lot of healing. But it hadn't resolved things at the root. And it was those wounds of unworthiness, and these deep fears of abandonment, and aloneness. And was I ever abandoned! And was I ever alone, after all this! So again, it's like facing my worst nightmares. Really potent medicine for me.

And another part of your journey is in from reading the book is basically, you really built up your business because I feel like this is relevant to you, like you were probably at the peak of your of your career, when this happened, you had just come out with your second book, and your user, you had told me you're ready for like a break, like, whoo, there's a lot of work, I'm ready for the rest and relaxation. And then a couple months later, this first heartbreak that you're talking about happened. And from reading your book, what I'm understanding is that the next several years was kind of like this decompensation of all of these different areas of your life, including your career, including your finances. And now on the other side of that, I would say, and you're doing really extraordinary work with women, specifically around the inner healing in the inner wisdom in many different areas, but including building their own businesses from that aspect. I would love to hear you say anything that you want to speak about what you're up to now and how it's all related to healing the inner, the inner wounds, because I think that this journey that you've been on has led you to exactly to where you are today.

I totally agree. Yeah. So I shifted my main focus - it used to be women's spirituality. And now it's women's spiritual entrepreneurship. And I really see how the things that held me back and that hold pretty much every woman who's an entrepreneur that I meet, where that holds, holds her back is the inner stuff. And really combining these practical business building tools, these practical money management tools, wealth, consciousness tools, with healing our feelings of unworthiness, healing the wounds that are blocking us from trusting our inner knowing from listening to our inner knowing, healing, the fears of beings seen being vulnerable failing being judged. I think that even above and beyond intimate relationship, that entrepreneurship is like the most potent path for personal growth. That's my experience.

That's so good. I love that you hold that. And I hold the art of we as the path. I mean, it all blends together, you know, in some form, and however we hold it is fantastic. And, and I love hearing that. And maybe I'll come to know that better as I'm on my journey.

Yeah like my relationship with my business is my longest standing relationship. And it will be, you know, through the rest of my life. And it has, it has pushed me it has challenged me and it continues to, you know, even today, like this exact day that we're talking.

Yeah. And it seems like if I can just go down this avenue for a minute, it seems like your new partnership, which I'm so happy that you're in, it seems so healthy, we can get into some of the details of that how you got here. It seems like that partnership is also supporting your entrepreneurial path in a way that you haven't had before. Would that be accurate? 100%.

Yes. And actually, in one of the later stories, in my book, I talk about a reading that I did with melanoma, so may, who actually passed away a couple of years ago, but one of the things he said was that my my medicine wasn't going to fully come online until I had a supportive partnership with the masculine that's still unfolding. But I can feel how that's a really important piece of it, because it's like I was needed to hold the masculine and the feminine within myself, and to be and I think that's important for every woman to be able to do, but also have more choice around it. And to have a man who's really feels really safe and really trustworthy, and really believes in me and my work and really happy to help hold space for me when I'm doing big things like bringing this book into the world makes a huge difference. Right? Absolutely.

That's been the case for me and Will as well. And it's been super powerful. I'd like to go back to a little bit more about the power of grief. One of the quotes that you say in your book, I love so many quotes. “Heartbreak is a crucial initiation for women to step deeper into maturity and wisdom.” I'm gonna give you one more quote that you gave “unexpressed grief can eventually close down your heart and heart in you the exact opposite of what grief is trying to do. Grief is trying to break your heart open.” I'd love to hear some of your journey around the possibility that grief presents when one actually is in relationship with it.

Well, I had an initial initiation into grief and 2009 When my grandmother passed away, and I was very close to my grandmother, I was named after her. And I was taught the ways of grief then and really understood how it comes in waves comes whether or not you want it to inopportune times, and takes you down. And then when this initial heartbreak happened with my former fiance, I was initiated in an even bigger way. And I remember there were times where the waves of grief would be so strong, that it would knock me over. And I remember being facedown on the wood floor just heaving with grief. And so it is like this energy that we become conditioned to or that we need to become conditioned to it's like it's a high voltage energy and talking about Maledoma Some. He and his former wife, they brought these grief rituals over to the US. And these grief rituals are meant to be spaces where the community can come together and create this kind of communal nervous system to help run the huge energy of grief that is too big for our individual nervous systems. And so I really learned that this is a process of learning how to run this bigger energy. And it's like each wave that came and that I survived because it passed and gave me the courage to more fully give myself to it the next time. So it's like bit by bit bit by bit like titrating growing capacity. And that's what we need to do during these times because grief is the engine of change. If we don't let this electric current run through us, we're not going to transform, we're not going to evolve as a result of our challenge. And we're not going to like we were talking about the beginning, be able to expand our capacity for future challenges and for other people's challenges. And so many so many people get stuck because they're scared of grief and they don't give into it.

It's so interesting, because had I not gone through the depths and level of grief that I did with Mark’s sudden passing, I could see how I would potentially have the perspective of Yeah, yeah. You know, “it all sounds great.” Like it all sounds great on the other side, but, but there's, it feels like there's such a innate human resistance to even imagine that grief has something to offer us that it can evolve us and transform us because of how incredibly painful loss and grief can be in our systems, I think you're talking about the big energy of it. So I totally resonate with what you're saying, 150%, I'm such a different person today. Which is why I often say that there were so many gifts from Mark’s passing, but it was really gifts in my grief process that I got gifts from. And it's the reason why I have the relationship I have today, I believe, and what I want to share for people who haven't really given themselves permission to slow down and go into any kind of grief, whether it's a massive heartbreak, like we're talking about, or it's a loss of a job, or, you know, someone in the community in Boulder recently lost their limbs and just like oh my gosh, like, hard to imagine how to get through that. And actually see going through the grief process as an opportunity. But for any of those who are listening, who don't yet understand the power of grief, I hope that this conversation and your book, Sarah, is a beacon of hope that there is something on the other side of the challenge of grief and the heartbreak of lead grief. And I'm wondering if there's anything that you want to add to that.

I don't know what it is about this being human. But it seems like one of our most potent pathways for evolution is through challenge. And I'm not saying that we can't grow through joy, because we certainly can. But even if we think about the birth process, and the death process, there's something to this incarnation that just you know, think about Buddhist teachings dukkha or suffering, there is suffering – suffering is a feature of existence. And so I think really, one of the things that we didn't learn that we really do need to learn is how to live with that how to live with that truth of existence that there is suffering. And so one of my intentions for this book is to help give that education like yes, these things are really hard. And sometimes they feel in survivable like like you name like not being sure if you are going to survive the aftermath of Mark's death. There are many times in this journey in my book where I didn't think I was going to survive it. And how do we keep in one of my spiritual teachers has is phrase opening, softening and allowing Miranda McPherson opening, softening and allowing. And she says how can we open soften and allow our experience to be exactly as it is? It's so simple, but it's not easy. So not easy.

I'm smiling, because it's so not easy. Whether it's like very minor things in our lives, or very major things in our lives. It's so hard to do that. And when we do it, though, there is such a different possibility there.

Yeah, so there's one chapter in the book called “processing pain,” where I share a recommendation that my mentor gave me when I was just in so much pain that I didn't, I didn't know how I was going to do anything. And I kept wanting to distract myself, like, maybe I could go work out. Or maybe I could eat a snack, or maybe I could just check my emails, but I knew that that was gonna make me feel worse. And so she was saying, like, just get back into bed, pull up the covers, close the blinds, and just go into your body and feel the pain. And she was telling me to do it bit by bit. So just notice, where do you feel in the body, drop the story about it just for a breath, or even half of half of a breath, like one email or one exhale, just feel that sensation. And then we just do that, like, over and over and over again as much as we can. But even if we just do it for half a breath like you did that, and then you can go back and do it again another time. But that's what it looks like. Yeah, just having this direct meeting with the suffering with what is yes. And that's how we metabolize it.

Do you feel after eight years that it's fully metabolized in your system? Or do you feel like that particular heartbreak is going to be metabolizing in different ways, for a while, like how do you relate to that?

I feel like it's fully metabolized. I feel like all of those heartbreaks are fully metabolized. And there are sometimes still tendrils of anger toward my former fiance. I don't feel anything around the other heartbreaks, but I think maybe parts of me are always the basis of acceptance now. And a basis of forgiveness. And sometimes there's anger that comes from that first heartbreak that comes in. And maybe that will always be the case, just aspects of my personality, still grappling with how someone can do that.

Yeah, that makes sense. And one thing that I do love about your book as you're sharing along the journey, and one of them is getting to a place of acknowledging and appreciating basically, the purpose what you're up to in relationship together, which I thought was really profound, because you had you had come together with a particular purpose. And in some ways you felt like that was really met. I'm wondering if you want to say anything about that?

Yes, well, it was met, not at all in the way that I thought it would be. Which is another thing. Another thing because this book is like, it's like my midlife initiation. So we all go through some form our souls go through a midlife initiation, they also go through the initiation of birth, the initiation of death initiation, the elderhood. And so this is my midlife initiation. And anyone who reaches midlife, you reach a point where you look at your life, and you say, my life is not what I thought it was going to look like. And usually there's some big heartbreak or upset that causes that to be that way. Right? So with that said, yes, our, our spoken, shared intention was to use our relationship as a vehicle for spiritual awakening, and it felt like it was met on some level.

Oh, completely.

Yes he, at the soul level, is one of my greatest teachers, because of what our relationship unearthed in me and the huge healing, self reclamation journey that I went on as a result of that I would not be who I am. Without that having happened, this book wouldn't be here. Without that having happened, my relationship that I have now would not be like so much, really, any aspect of my life would not be what it is now without that, and it was really a quantum leap for myself in in terms of who I am now, how I experienced myself now versus how I was, then.

It really sounds like it. There's so many avenues that I want to take, I can't decide which one, I want to ask you what the most challenging second heartbreak was. Before I do that, I would love for you to talk a little bit about something that you shared with me in another conversation that I think you called trauma bonding, I thought it was so informative, because I feel like that term could potentially apply to if anybody's in a type of relationship where it's super fiery, and hot and great half the time. And then super challenging and frustrating and really hard the other time, potentially, this could be a pointer for them. And I would love for you to describe what trauma bonding is. So people can have that information.

Well, it's usually in the honeymoon phase in a relationship, there's a lot of fireworks, and there's really strong chemistry and you're really excited about it, you're there's a lot of infatuation. And there's this feeling that you're just flying, that you're on top of the world. And I definitely had that in that relationship, we definitely had that bliss period. And the chemistry was really strong, the passion was really strong. And then there reached a point where that just shifted, and things became can just as dark as they as they were explosive. And that's another one of the things that I learned in retrospect, I learned that, that is trauma bonding, it's where the wounds in him, were being magnetized to the wounds in me. And so using the language of parts from ifs, like we were relating part to part, and not from self to self, you know, like our essence to essence. And so now I know that if I see that in a friend, or if I see that in one of my clients is talking about that I know that's a red flag. Yeah, what we want is a sense of more groundedness. And just this feeling of like, like, there can be passion, but we want it to be more like a simmer than…

…boiling.

A pot boiling over. And that fireworks are not a good sign.

Yeah, that's so that's so interesting. I mean, I wish I wish my younger, my literal, younger self when I was younger and age had some sort of framework around that. I think that's really important to understand, because I think we're also taught I was taught culturally that that's actually what you want.

Me too, and we see that in the movies or TV shows. That's exactly what we're conditioned into, that's a good thing. And that's it's really not, it's really not the best thing.

So that brings me to today's relationship and I think that this is important because I'm imagining after not just the betrayal with this first person that you're talking about. There was another heartbreak that happened along the way that I won't get into. But I would imagine that it would take a lot to learn how to be inside of a really healthy partnership and this kind of simmering quality that you talked about, I understand when you met your, your current partner, there was more of this simmering quality to it, not this kind of massive explosive, fiery quality. But what I'm really interested in is how did you get to learning to be in the current relationship in a way that feels safe and secure. And that, you know, it's not what it was before?

Well I had a four year period of being single. And that helped a lot, where I knew that I had a lot of deep work to do, in order to change my center of gravity to be attracted to a different kind of man to even just to have a different kind of man come into my field, because there's just an interesting that happens energetically, you know, it's a kind of like, like, attracts like. So if a wounded part of me is subconsciously leading, then like that's going to, you know, wounded person is going to appear in my life. So there was a lot that I needed to do around that. And I was a times I would go on and off the dating apps. And I started to learn kind of what their red flags were, I could even tell by someone's picture, or the way that they scribed themselves. Or even if we started messaging, like through the messaging, I was able to pick things up that were red flags. And anytime that would happen, I would just come back to myself and say, Okay, this is a mirror that there's more pieces in here for me to be with.

That is fascinating. That's such a good move to do.

And it was very frustrating.

I mean, dating apps in general are frustrating. I've been on them years ago, in addition to doing your own work, the mirrors that you're seeing doing that work, also.

I kept feeling like is this never going to be resolved? Like I've been working at this for so long? Yeah. Am I ever gonna just kind of like change my setpoint. And so when I met my current partner, Chris actually wasn't looking for a partner at that point, I kind of just given up. I know that's kind of like a cliche, but I don't know, maybe there's something to it, but I just kind of let it go. And it was during the pandemic, November of 2020. And I'd moved to California for a couple of years in this process and unexpectedly moved back and winter was coming. And I knew Okay, pandemic winter, single, this is not a good combination. My mental health, not a good combination, after I'd been alone for so for four years, I'm been doing the pandemic alone. And so I just got back on the app. So just, you know, maybe I'll just meet a nice person, and we can hang out and enjoy each other's company and, and I met him.

You guys had actually known each other previously.

He messaged me and shared that he knew me from many years ago when I was with my former fiance. And he was able to reference different people that we knew who's familiar with my work. And so I felt safe enough to meet up with him. And one of my therapists recommended during that period of time when I was dating, to really tune into how I felt in my body, and really make sure I felt a sense of safety. Not that sense of excitement, not a sense of danger, not a sense of huge chemistry, but just safety. And she said it should even feel a little bit boring.

I love that so much. If I were single, I'd be like, I don't really want to take that advice. But I think it is so smart to take that advice.

Yes because I had gone for the testosterone for the adventure for the rush, the bad boy archetype. And I completely crashed and burned like my life went up in flames as a result of that. So I was like, Yes, I'm willing to go for the feeling of boring because I know that that other route is not going to turn out well.

It's such a good story. And because we are talking about the art of we hear I also want to go into agreements, because I know that we've shared agreements, the agreements that we have with you guys, and I know that you guys have created your own agreements and curious if any of the agreements and you don't have to even see what they are but support building the security and the trust between the two of you, given the histories that you both have, like, is there a way that you've created agreements to help build that security interest?

All of them. I think we have like 13 or 14, and we return we revisit them every season. Just to see, do these still fit? Do we need to add some or edit some? Are we in alignment? Are we living by these agreements? So they're not just gathering dust and we're ignoring them. But they're all in place to help us to have a safe and secure and thriving relationship?

Right on. I feel like I don't know how I did partnership without the agreements that create everything that you just named and And which is why we're such big advocates of of that previous to Well, I never we had like unspoken agreements or like agreements that were, like thrown around, but nothing that was like really formalized and that we were both, like you said aligned with and that we're just creating dust. So I love that you guys have those.

Yeah, I think about like that like values in a business, and how often values kind of gathered us but values in a business, they're the rules of the road totally. And they create the culture. And, you know, it said that you should hire and fire according to your values. And people in the business can make decisions according to the values without needing to always get a get approval. And so it's the same in relationships, like they're the rules of the road. And when we're together, and when we when we're apart. They help us they help inform us how the choices we're going to make how we're going to show up.

And I'll even say that another step and taking values into really being able to live into the values. It's also creating agreements based on the values. Yes, I know, not necessarily in your business. But so many businesses are out there where they have them on the wall, and they're just like pointing towards them. And nobody really knows how to bring them into the company in a real way. Yes. So just another plug for agreements. Okay, Sara, I know, we're getting close to the end here, but I want to hear just if you could name what was the second hardest heartbreak that you had out of the serial heartbreaks that you've had.

Definitely my abortion. So one of the things that happened in my relationship with my former fiance was that we had been in like a dance a tug of war for many of the years that we were together around whether or not to have children. And we both went into the relationship as maybes with the agreement that we're going to stay in conversation around it. And as time progressed, I started to become more of a yes. And he started become more of a no, but, there's still a maybe there. And I was in this polarization inside of: is this relationship, my path, or isn't my path to leave and to find another partner and have a baby? And I was really just torn up around that for a while. And one of the pieces of anger that came forward when the truth came out, was that he just didn't tell me the truth years ago, and that would have solved that. The answer to that question for me, would have freed me in my mid 30s, to still have time to find a partner and have a family. And so part of what happened with all this blowing up in my late 30s was that I felt the pressure of the biological clock ticking and like, how am I going to make all this happen in such a short amount of time, long story short, and people can read the story in the book. But I met someone some time after my former fiancee and I separated and unintentionally got pregnant, which was something I like I didn't even know if I could get pregnant. And so there was a sense of disbelief around that, like, wow, this is really happening. And that I was just like, so strongly calling that in, and I realized, wow, I kind of created this, because I was so powerful. And I was kind of struck by that power, but that I had created it within a container that was not right. And so that abortion was was just really devastating for me. And I had to make that decision on the leap of faith that I could get pregnant again. And even though I didn't know if I would, and I ended up not being able to get pregnant again. But even if that's the case, that was to be the case, I was still something that needed to happen. And so that was also very complicated, very devastating. And it was the next year really after the betrayal that I was processing that. So that really, that really took me down. And that took me a long time to work through. There were a lot of layers. And that is, like I said, a very complicated situation.

I mean, all of the heartbreaks in this book feel like they're very complex, which probably is the truth in life, but your awareness of the different complexities and how you bring them in and how you bring us through your thought process. And through the different layers of grief and decision making.

My life did not give me the easy path during those several years.

Oh my gosh. So I have to ask, and I meant to ask you this before when we were on a walk. So this book is like bearing it all. One way that I see this book is like putting it all out there. So you're not your container isn't just holding it. It's like it's out there. And I'm wondering what kind of freedom does that create instead of your own body and your own container now that you're not holding it alone? Not that you're ever holding it alone? I mean, at times, you're very alone in your book, but I'm sure that you've shared these with friends and Chris and all the things but like, is there something that's changing for you as a result of this book being out?

Well, a couple of things come to mind as you say that and going back to that discussion about values, two of my highest values are truth and freedom. And there was addiction in my family of origin. And actually, three out of my six family members are in 12 Step programs. So there was a lot of secrecy. Basically, my whole childhood was keeping secrets and living duplicitous ly meeting to present one way and then having another experience behind closed doors. Although I didn't realize that that wasn't normal. I didn't realize that wasn't normal until I was like in middle school. And so as an adult, there's a conscious choice of I'm not keeping secrets, there's a saying, and a, you're only as sick as your secrets. Not everyone needs to do this. And not everyone needs to do this in a book. But I just happen to be a writer and a teacher, and also a teacher for women. And so I know that the life experiences that I have, I have a choice to share them or not. But if I feel willing, and feels like they're also meant to be shared, so that maybe other women can be spared from needing to go through all these things that I went through, I can share the things that I learned with them, and help them to even have an easier path. So in terms of how it's going to feel for me and sharing all this with the world now, I don't totally know. Because I mean, not like the whole world is gonna read this book, but they should be great if they do. I don't know how it's gonna feel, it's definitely we talked about is definitely vulnerable. Yeah, it does feel liberating to know that there's nothing about me that other people don't know, that makes sense. And that's not always been true for me. And so that feels like I'm, I'm an open book, because I'm ready, I'm ready to be in terms of these stories.

It feels like such a big developmental journey to go through and comb through and get the gold from and heal from these experiences in a way that can actually be shared with the world like to be able to get to that level of sharing and completeness was sharing feels like a really developmental journey. And I'm so inspired by it. And it's inspiring me to go back to my some of my past, if you like, Where have I been a little bit less conscious, and what kind of like, there. So thank you for that inspiration.

I feel like each of my books, like my first book was about the decade of my 20s. And my second book was about the decade of my 30s. This one was like my early 40s. But for whatever reason, that's been my cycle, I don't know what it will be going forward. But it is a gift to I live something I learned from it, I write about it, I share it, I teach it and there are so there is like a real just transformation and transmutation that happens in that process.

If anybody who's listening is inspired also and you know, is interested in sharing their stories or writing about them or reading a book about it, what advice would you have for them given that this is your cycle and your way of doing it?

I'd say just trust that. And, you know, writing has always been such a great form of expression. For me, it's like how I express myself most authentically and most completely. And so we all just need to choose our own or to really find our pathway for doing that. So if it's writing, go for it, if it's, you know if it even if it's something that you just share with yourself, or just share with close friends that doesn't necessarily have to be through a book. But I find, I think creativity is definitely very healing. And it's a really important medicine for these times. Yes, and creativity can look many different ways.

This has been such a lovely conversation. I feel like I could go down many different rabbit holes for hours with you, Sara, about all these topics. But since we have to end unfortunately, I would love for you to share where people can find your book.

So now it's available wherever books are sold. And that feels overwhelming to choose, you can go to the books website, which is www.handbookfortheheartbroken.com. And on that site, there's also some gifts that you'll receive. So if you do purchase the book, and you send us in your receipt, we have some gifts like a playlist and some other audio meditations to accompany your book journey. And also on that website you can find my podcast is called “her self.” You can find me on Instagram @SarahAvantStover. And you can find other programs and retreats that I offer on this theme of heartbreak and just the larger theme like we spoke about of spiritual women's entrepreneurship.

Fantastic. And for those of you listening, I highly encourage you to go dive into all of Sara's stuff and we'll have everything that you just named in the show notes for easy access. And thank you again so much Sara for this time and for really being such a warrior in putting your experience your learnings and the guidebook for women to go through heartbreak in the way that you have learned so deeply and so beautifully, thank you.

Thank you for having me and thank you for this enriching conversation.

And for you who are listening, thank you for joining us and we will talk with you and be with you next week. Take care.