In this profoundly moving episode of "What's The Story?", we sit down with Jo Jackson, a remarkable individual whose life story is a testament to the transformative power of faith and prayer in the face of adversity. Jo shares her incredible journey from a tumultuous childhood, through personal loss and grief, to finding solace and strength in prayer. Her story is not just one of survival, but of thriving through faith.

Key Highlights:

1. Becoming a Christian: Jo recounts the pivotal moment in her life when, in the depths of despair, she called out to God and experienced His tangible presence, transforming her life forever.
2. Brother's Tragic Death: A heart-wrenching recount of the loss of her brother in a motorbike accident and how, even in her deepest grief, Jo found peace and strength through prayer.
3. Adoption Journey: Jo shares the emotional rollercoaster of adopting their son, navigating challenges, and the profound impact of prayer in their family's life.
4. Continued Faith Amidst Trials: Through numerous challenges, including health issues and relational strains, Jo's faith remained unshaken, underpinned by a deep commitment to prayer.

Key Takeaways:

• An exploration of how prayer has been a cornerstone in Jo's life, offering peace and guidance through life's storms.
• Insights into how faith has not only sustained Jo through trials but has transformed her approach to life's challenges.
• Jo's mantra of "keep on keeping on" serves as a powerful reminder of the strength that comes from steadfast faith.
• The importance of supportive relationships and community in navigating life's trials.

Join us as Jo Jackson shares her inspiring story, offering hope and encouragement to all who face the storms of life. Her testimony is a powerful reminder that no matter the circumstances, peace can be found through the power of prayer.

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And now, let's meet your host and our special guest for today.

Hi there everyone and welcome to this episode of What's The Story?

Today I'm joined by a good friend of mine, Jo Jackson.

Now Jo lives in Wirral, Merseyside, with her husband Ian and their two

kids, one who came to her through birth and one through adoption.

She is a detective constable for Merseyside Police.

And also a Family liaison officer who supports those bereaved by crimes.

Jo, welcome to the podcast today, it's really lovely

to have you on.

Thanks for having me, it's a real privilege to join you.

Oh, it's

fab.

I've been wanting to get Jo on for a while because you've got a

great sort of story to tell, so I'm glad we've made this happen today.

Yeah,

me too.

Yeah, so

Let's start at the beginning of your story then, Jo, if that's okay.

Tell us a little bit about your childhood, your background, where

did you come from, how did your

early years look?

Yeah, so I'm a North West girl, I've been brought up in the North

West of England, in Cheshire.

Proper Cheshire, not Wirral Cheshire, proper working class Cheshire.

And I was not brought up in a Christian home at all, in fact, quite the contrary.

My parents and my grandparents all worked in factories and my dad's an alcoholic

and my mum was quite emotionally and physically abusive when I was growing up.

We talk now, don't we, about adverse childhood experiences.

We didn't know that term when we were younger, certainly not when I was younger.

And I pretty much experienced all of them, bar sexual, fortunately not sexual abuse,

but it was a really painful upbringing.

It meant that I grew up very insecure, just a really bad start to life not

a great foundation at all, really.

Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

Obviously not an easy background, really tough childhood.

Yeah.

But so how, because you said, certainly your family weren't from a Christian

background, like faith, religion wasn't in your early years at all.

So how did you move from that situation to becoming a Christian?

Like at what point did God come into the mix in your story?

Yeah, I was sharing my story recently on another forum, and I

was saying that the closest I came to any kind of Christians were two things.

I didn't go to a church school or anything, but I went to guides, and

obviously there's a kind of little bit of the link with the church there,

and a tiny bit of Christian input.

But because I didn't wear my guide uniform every week, I got told off

by Brown Owl and I swore at her and I got thrown out of guides.

Then my other interaction was I used to babysit for a lady who would

now know is a born again Christian.

She used to try and get me, when I first arrived, to watch VHSs, as it was then,

of Benny Hinn and Kathryn Kuhlman and other, preachers and healers and I just

think you're mad, you're absolutely mad.

And I grew up through school into GCSE kind of age and A levels really

loving science and really loving, really to me science was the answer.

I didn't delve into the emotional side of life but science, I

love science and I love facts.

And by the time I went to university I had no time for faith whatsoever.

I absolutely believe that science was the way forward.

I'd done a specialist A level in social and environmental biology,

which looks at life from birth right through to aging and death.

And it looked a lot like evolution and things, and to me, we were, science was

the answer, and by the time I was at university, I was studying, I trained

to be a teacher, but I did biological studies, and again, chose modules about

evolution and those kinds of things.

And on campus there was quite a strong Christian union and they would come

and just try and speak to people and a lot of the other primary school trainee

teachers were Christians and things and they'd come and try and speak to me and

I would be like, you're absolutely mad.

I did not, I wasn't one of those people who say, oh faith's fine

for you but it's not for me.

I literally would say to them, you're mad, you're so foolish, science says this,

science says that, how can you believe in something, how can you be so weak?

And I was really quite aggressive and hostile to them, really.

Contrary to what I'm saying about science, I also managed to get into the

occult, which, as we know now is like a real tactic of the enemy, isn't it?

But it was weird how I couldn't believe in a god.

But I could believe in tarot cards palm reading and all those kinds of things.

And yeah.

Yeah.

And so I got into that too.

And by the time I was 21, I was in my third year at uni and tarot cards

had really got quite a grip of me, I'd turned to them every day and I,

I just felt really broken and hurt.

I was.

I was in such a dark place and nothing in my life had been positive.

In fact, I was sharing with a friend today that I tried to do training to

work for the Samaritans or the equivalent on campus and they said to us, before

we do the training because it's so heavy, I want you to think of a time

in your life when you've been happy that you can go back and reflect on if

the training gets too heavy for you.

And at 21 years of age I sat there and I thought, I can't think of a

time in my life when I've been happy.

There's always been something going on.

The other thing that happened at that age was my cousin was killed by her

partner in a domestic violence situation.

And so I was in uni, I was studying evolution, I was into the tarot cards, I'd

had all this pain in my life and module.

And it was about why people kill and why there's violence in society and whatever.

And I just sat listening to this lecture and I just thought,

my head is going to explode.

I can't listen to this anymore.

And I remember distinctly, I went back to my room at university,

which was in a shared house.

And I sat in my room and it was a nice sunny autumn day and,

people talk about crying out to God and asking God to help them.

I was really quite bolshie with God and it's a miracle that He

answered me because I literally sat there and said that is it, God.

If you insist, you better show yourself because I cannot live like this anymore.

And, wow, I just felt the tangible presence of God.

It was such, now when I think about it, it was such grace and

mercy from God because I didn't deserve for him to answer me at all.

I didn't say, Oh God, please help me.

I want to believe in you.

It was this very, bolshy crying out to God, but he did.

He absolutely answered me.

I felt instantly different.

And I felt like 21 years of pain and hurt, for then anyway, had been

lifted off me and I felt so peaceful and it wasn't a scary feeling

at all, it was a lovely feeling.

And I sat there for a while and I thought I feel different what do I do now?

I went out onto the landing and there's a girl that I live with who was also

called Jo and she was a Christian but a very quiet Christian not like

an evangelist or anything like that.

Quietly went about our business, and I said, Joe, I've just had

this experience, and I said this to God, and then this happened.

What do you think I should do?

And I remember her saying maybe you could come to church with me on Sunday?

And it was a Wednesday, so I was like okay.

So I'm back in my room and I thought what do I do now?

And although again, I don't know where it came from that I

must've known about the Bible.

And I walked into the city center and I went to a Christian bookshop and

bought myself a youth Bible because I knew I couldn't read an adult

Bible, but I bought a youth Bible.

And it was one that had lots of testimonies and little stories in it.

And I remember devouring them from the Wednesday to Sunday.

And then I went to a Baptist church with my friends and that

was 28 years ago and I've never not been to church since then really.

Wow.

That's amazing, isn't it?

Because that is God kind of meeting you at your point of need and your

point of pain and crying out and yeah just amazing really and that

nobody had to tell you anything.

You just encountered good for yourself when you cry out to Him, and that's

where you hit your lowest point,

yeah, and that's what I always encourage people with, it doesn't

matter how far away people seem from God, if He can do that with me, on

my own, not with someone leading me.

Him, but just me and him, I just think you can don't give up praying for anybody.

'cause it was, yeah, it was miraculous.

And, as I'll go on to share tonight in a session it's stood me a

really good stead for what's come up in the rest of my life really.

Yeah.

So obviously that was your kind of initial

encounter and first meeting.

And then obviously alluded there, you like got plugged into a church

and you had Christian friends around you and developed in your faith.

And were there any kind of other kind of key or important defining times

in your walk with God from there?

Like key grave times?

Or was it just like from there on you were just like away in your faith?

Yeah, I mean I went through a real season of trying to understand

the Father Heart of God because I'd had this difficult upbringing.

I didn't have probably the Father figure per se, I think it was any figure

that's supposed to have cared for you.

So that was really difficult but I was really fortunate I was in church

environments where I was really nurtured.

A lot of prayer, a lot of counseling, a lot of one to one discipleship

and I really did need that.

And I think that's really on my heart now is that we really

need to disciple people well.

It's not enough to make a decision for Christ, like I said, in that

room at university I felt like all the pain was instantly lifted off.

But of course once you've stepped into God's kingdom, the enemy

wants you back out, doesn't he?

And you be attacked and you're gonna be, it's gonna be fighting to

get you back out of God's kingdom.

All the pain and hurt didn't go away permanently, I had to then work through

it things like freedom appointments and different prayer ministries and things

and I probably spent the last, the first few months at church just crying my way

through services, but I was fortunate.

When I became a Christian, it was like when the Toronto Blessings

were really hitting the UK.

Yeah.

And there was quite a move of the Holy Spirit, so at least wasn't the only

person, like wailing and manifest.

Blended right in church was very lively at that time.

Uhhuh, a lot of big move of the spirit, so I didn't stick out

too much, so I wasn't too bad.

, Anna Kettle: and then as you you just touched on there, but like

becoming a Christian, although.

It's an amazing transformation in your life, it doesn't fix everything instantly

and also life continues through challenges once you become a Christian, like it's a

bit of a myth really that you come to God and everything gets fixed, like sometimes

that happens but life still happens, doesn't it, and further challenges and

trials come along, so I wondered could you tell us a bit more about that,

like what's like a key challenge that you've faced in your life since then, or

a number of challenges?

Obviously, I became a Christian when I was 21, and by the time I was in my mid

twenties, I'd done a lot of that hard work with God, but one thing that I did

then do, and that's like how we met more and really got to know each other, was

discipleship training scheme, which was partnered with YWAM, and I don't know

about you, Anna, but that was really, it was really pivotal for me some really

good teaching and opportunities to, go on mission around the world and live

in community, which, let's face it.

Living in community knocks a lot of rough edges off you, doesn't it, and we had

quite a volatile community that we lived in, we were all, mature and not everyone,

but there was a lot of us who were quite mature and it was really fiery at

times, wasn't it, for all good learning.

Just to explain to anyone else who's listening here, so

we did, Jo and I, we did a podcast I'd just finished uni, so I was 21.

You'd been teaching for a few years by this point, I think you were about 26, 27.

And we did a gap year, a Y1 gap year that was, like, linked to a local

church in Liverpool at the time.

And yeah, and it involved, living for nine months in the same house as, I think there

was, like, I don't know, there was like 12 or 15 people, something like that, on our

kind of, our course, and it was like, in terms of discipleship, teaching, ministry,

like we did all different projects for the church, didn't we, through the week,

and I was very involved in student work, and there was other sort of outreach

projects happening, and social justice projects, youth work, that kind of thing.

So people were all involved in different things, but yeah, it was

living in shared rooms, and yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think, I came to that straight from uni, so I was like, I'd

lived away from home, but I hadn't

really had a full adult life yet,

like I, and quite a few of us were straight out of uni

on that course, and big respect to Jo, because she went and lived

as one of the older team members.

who had been independent, had work and lived separate on your own for a number

of years and been a fully independent adult with a salary and, responsibilities.

And then you just had to muck along with all these just out

of uni, annoying 21 year olds.

Some of them were 18.

I

can still hear your hair straighteners now, Anna,

from the bedroom next door.

But no, it was, I really felt that, I've been a Christian quite a few years,

I've worked through a lot of stuff, I'm a primary school teacher, but I still

believe, the other thing, I think about the Toronto Blessings at the time, one

of the things that was massive in the North West was the Message Trust, and

bands like Delirious, and the song that kind of resonates with that period in

my life was that song History Maker, I'm going to be a speaker of truth

to all mankind, I'm going to live and I'm going to make a difference, and.

I really believe that there was like a call on, not just my life,

but all our lives and that's how we're supposed to live.

It wasn't enough being a primary school teacher.

I really felt like I would probably work for a church or have a

ministry or something like that.

And so giving up work to, I felt called by God to give up work and do the DTS.

So that's what I did.

And throughout, through the coming out of the end of that, I ended up volunteering

to help on the next DTS course.

And I did.

I met my husband and I got married, so life was looking really good.

I'd become a Christian, I'd gone through all these foundational things, sorting

myself out, getting, a measure of healing, this really good discipleship

training scheme, and here I was working for the church and married.

And you think, oh my life has started now, this is going to be it, when

we joined the discipleship training scheme, we all had assigned bedrooms.

And we all had a scripture put on our doors, and my scripture was Jeremiah

29, 11, For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans

to give you a hope and a purpose.

And I remember thinking, oh my goodness, how trite, that's just

a throwaway Christian platitude.

People had these like really random verses that I'd never heard before, and

I was like Yeah, the leaders have really heard from God for those people, but

mine was just like a, Oh yeah, I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord.

But actually, what I came to learn is, yeah, God really

has got a plan for our lives.

And I, and it was absolutely was for me that scripture and I

thought my life's beginning now.

I've got a little house.

Working for the church married, here we go.

And within a few weeks of being married we were actually due to go out for dinner

for one of our friends 30th birthdays.

My husband was at the pub and I was due to meet you guys to go out

for dinner and my phone rings and it was my step mum in hysterics.

And I thought my dad had, my dad isn't in great health probably

the amount I fully consumes.

And I said, is it dad?

She wasn't making any sense.

Is it dad?

And she said, no, it's your brother Kev.

He's been in a motorbike, motorbike accident, a road traffic collision.

So she was like, get to hospital straight away.

And it's one of those phone calls no one ever wants to have.

And I just remember thinking, whoa, I put the phone down, didn't have a car.

Phone my husband, and he was in a pub with other Christian friends, so somebody

came with a car, drove us to the hospital, and I had that horrible experience of

arriving at the hospital just as the ambulance pulled up and brought my brother

out of the ambulance with, when they pack the heads and the spine, and they

keep everybody straight, and there was no, he was just covered in blood, and

there was no it was totally unconscious.

You didn't get anything from him and I followed, it was like a scene from

Casualty or something, I followed him into the hospital and then my family,

who had been only eight miles away from him, and I'd been all the way

at Merseyside, somehow I'd managed to get there first, and then my dad and

my mom and my step parents arrived And it was this horrible time of

waiting to find out what was going on.

But I remember even in that, so he'd come off a motorbike on his own, been found

with massive head injuries in the road.

And even in that time then, I felt that God gave me the peace and the calmness.

We talk about that peace that transcends all understanding.

But I had the ability to almost come outside of the situation, see my parents

and my step parents in total distress

and take control.

we were allocate a family liaison officer if you if your family member is likely

to die due to road traffic collision or have been killed in crime, you get

allocated a family liaison officer.

So we got one.

And I just remember being chaos and I said to this family liaison

officer, if my brother is going to die, then he cannot die alone.

You cannot keep us in this family room.

While he's been worked on and may die alone you need to take control of this

situation, I said to this family liaison officer and sure enough he went off, he

found he got permission and he came back and he said only two family members can

go in, but I, me and my dad, myself and my dad were able to go in and be with my

brother and I just remember there seeing these poor medics working on my brother

and it was painfully obvious that there was a massive blood loss from his head.

Just a really horrible scene.

I just remember this poor young nurse working at the head end, just

packing his head with with bandages trying to absorb, the blood loss.

And I said this, what I presume was a consultant or something

working on him, I'm a Christian, what can I do, what can I pray?

And he was just like, I don't think there is anything you can pray.

And I just said to God, if he has to die then take him, and we were asked

to leave the room, and within minutes, the family liason officer came and said

yeah, your brother has passed away.

And he actually said it to me and my husband Ian first, in the corridor my

brother's in one room, being treated, there's a corridor that me and my

husband are in, and then my parents some step parents are in the family room.

The family liaison officer came to me and my husband and he turned to

me and he said, I'm really sorry to tell you, your brother has died.

And again, just like in my room when I became a Christian at uni, that tangible

presence of God literally fell on me and I felt so calm and so peaceful.

And I remember thinking, death, where is your sting?

This is Satan, there's nothing you can do.

This is death.

And death has not separated me from the love of God.

The presence of the Holy Spirit is here.

And it was an amazing, it wasn't a nice feeling because obviously it was a

horrific situation, but I just remember it, and it gave me the strength to walk

back into that family room, my family were told the news, my dad was very distressed

but my mum, and I've seen this myself now working with bereaved families, when

you're in shock you don't take it in.

And she just kept saying, has he died, and it's horrible to have to say, yes, mum,

he has died, and and to see it go through that was was pretty, pretty hard, really.

Not nice at

all.

Yeah.

So tough and in such an awful situation that no one would ever want to be in,

but amazing that you can testify that right in the middle of it that God's

there, but it's not that the Situations good or easy, it's an awful tragic

situation and yet you're like God is with, I know God's with me in the middle

of it, which is incredible really.

And actually some of that experience has inspired what you do now in

the police, isn't that right?

Yeah, so all credit to the family liaison officer, now I do that

as a job, I've got a lot of grace for him, but he wasn't particularly good at

his job, and he admitted that we were the first family that he'd worked with,

which again, it's not something you want to know when you're in that situation.

But I now understand that he was just trying to make the best of

a really difficult situation.

And I think it's different when you're in traffic.

If you work as a traffic officer, you have to be a family liaison

officer, they go hand in hand.

Where as I, working in serious and organised crime, I volunteered to do it

because it's something that I believe in, but because he wasn't the best

communicator I've since gone on to use my experiences to, to help other people,

yeah I just think I've seen throughout my life really, the job that I'm in now as

well the experiences that I've experienced have stood me in really good stead for

being able to relate to anybody, to not be shocked, to not, carry real weight

from my job because, yeah, I just I trust God with it all and I can see how my

life experiences has been used by God to, fulfill the role that I'm in now, really.

Yeah,

that's amazing.

And then, that's one major kind of life challenge and upset that came

along, but there's been like other challenges, haven't there, in that

whole area of grief and loss as well that are like more personal to you.

Do you want to, do you want to tell us a bit about those?

Yeah, so when my brother died in the September and I was really

well until the February, and in the February, I started, I got like what

they call associated arthritis, I think from physically carrying the pain.

There's a really good book called The Body Keeps the Score, and it understands

from a secular point of view how we carry trauma in our bodies, and that really

for me started a bit of a season of being in and out of depression for years.

So I battled with all of that and then I had another good period in my life

where a few years after my brother had passed and I'd worked through a lot of

that and I'd worked through depression and ill health and I'd gone off and done

floristry for a bit and done some nice things and done some creative things and

You know, we moved from Liverpool to the Wirral, which is a much more rural area

and we're having a nice life here and I was in the police and that was going

and I was enjoying that role and then I got pregnant with my birth daughter,

which was amazing, absolutely amazing.

We'd seen, we'd waited a long time, we'd waited eight years before we'd

tried for my daughter, probably because of things that we'd been through.

As ready as I was when we first got married.

And we'd wondered about adopting then, because we'd

seen people have these babies.

We'd seen people go through those horrific first 12 to 16 weeks where

your world is just turned upside down.

And having a baby isn't the be all and end all.

It's pretty, it's pretty hard.

And we prayed and said to God, should we adopt?

And then we tried to conceive and caught pregnant straight away and

had an amazing, healthy pregnancy.

And although I did have a c-section, went on to have an amazing maternity

leave, just loved being a mom and it was really healing for me.

I just felt that she was a boy and when we had the scan, they told us she was

a girl, I actually said sorry to my husband and I thought where did that

come from and what's that all about and I really felt the Holy Spirit

say to me, this relationship is going to be healing, you've had a really

horrific relationship with your mum but actually this relationship is going to

be healing and it absolutely has been.

My daughter is an absolute delight, she's 13 now.

So it's, it's not always delightful, but she's actually a really good 13 year old.

She's, even, early teens, she's great.

We had her, and we thought we were the bee's knees at parenting,

and so we decided that we would, ask people to do a couple of

years, three years in, try again.

I really struggled to conceive, and then I had early miscarriage experience as well.

And had what they call unexplained infertility, had some tests and stuff,

and, I felt the test was so intrusive, how anyone does IVF or whatever, I really

take my hat off to them, I found even having the test so intrusive, but I was

told that, just unexplained infertility, keep trying, but the gap between how I

wanted my kids to be was getting wider and wider we considered adoption before,

and prayed about it, and we sent an email off to a local authority, and said,

could, would you consider us for adoption?

And I remember sitting in the living room that I'm in now, and I shouted

to my husband, I've sent that email, and he said, oh great, let's see what

happens then, and the phone rang, and it was social care from that local

authority and an adoption process began and it went nearly smoothly . About

ten years ago now, but the government had just decided that it would take

six months to be approved to adopt.

So none of this taking months and months.

We had all these thousands of kids.

They set it up, didn't they?

Yes, they said legally it has to be six months from first contact

to being approved to adopt and it pretty much was to the day.

Took six months.

All that digging into your finances, every aspect of your life, your

communication, your previous upbringing, everything really intrusive, but,

a necessary process, and we passed, and we were approved to adopt one

child, because we already had Pippa.

And then it took years to be matched, and the gap between what would be our

two children was getting greater and greater, and I really struggled with that.

And we felt like in limbo for months and months, and it was so hard having

our daughter also say, when am I getting a brother or a sister, because it's a

hard process for them to explain, about three, four and I remember a friend

coming to visit, a Christian friend, and he said, how's the process going?

And I said, you know what, I'm about ready to give in, I can't do this anymore,

it's too painful, it's too much on our daughter and I think we need to give in.

And he said, maybe the child that you're to be matched with

hasn't even been born yet.

And I, and it was true.

Because the child that we were matched with wasn't born when

we were approved to adopt.

So we then ultimately, just as I was about to give in we'd seen this, because you get

given these profiles of children, which is essentially a piece of paper with a

picture, a little bit about them, and it's do you want to be matched with this child?

Which is a bizarre process.

Yeah.

But we give them this piece of paper with this face on, this little gorgeous face.

And Ian and I thought about it and we just said there's no reason why

not, we keep saying yes to these kids and we don't get matched with them.

There's no reason to say no to this one and this is our last chance,

we're not doing it again after this.

And remember, we were on holiday in Arbosach and the day that we knew the

social workers were going to choose a match for this little boy, as it was.

Hours and hours went by and we heard nothing and I said to my husband we can't

wait around, let's take our daughter out, let's go out, let's go onto the beach,

let's go for some lunch, and just as we sat down to eat some lunch, the phone rang

and it was a social worker, and I'll never forget it, she said, I don't know if you

We were gonna match this little boy today.

I felt like saying, what do you mean dunno if we remember.

Of course we remember our whole lives are pinned on this, but

we've been approved to, or we'd been matched with this little one.

And we cut a long story short, that was the summer he came to us in the October.

Our daughter had started reception in the September, which wasn't ideal.

I wanted to be off with the two of them together.

I wanted that, that plan together, but it didn't work out that way.

She was in reception and he came to us.

He was adorable.

He's such a handsome little boy.

And he is turned out to be quite a character, but he was nine

months when he came to us and he was quite a character then.

And I think it did look like the dream ending, beautiful little girl.

Beautiful baby boy.

A lovely life.

I gave up work as well.

I felt that was the right thing to do for the family.

I was gonna be this like amazing stay at home mom.

It turned out to be an absolute nightmare because he did not bond with me at all.

He'd been from this really busy foster home with loads of adults living

in the home, adult children, other foster children, teenage grandchildren

coming every day after school, and this poor little kid, this nine

month old baby was put in this quiet house in a quiet road on the Wirral.

He was looking at my face every day, and you could see he was just like, he'd

come out of hospital at so many days old and gone straight to his foster carer.

He'd known no different, and he absolutely freaked out being left on his own with me.

And it got so bad that I would put him down for a nap in the day, and we

had a video monitor, and I'd think, he's been asleep for ages, is he okay?

And I'd look at the video monitor, and he'd literally be sat up in his crib.

And he wouldn't be playing and he wouldn't be, doing anything other

than just sitting there and I'd go in and I'd say, Hi, how are you doing?

And he'd literally turn his face away or hide his face.

And that's when we had to reach back out to the social workers

and say we need some help here.

And we've had years and years of therapy and what we understand now

is that there are some attachment issues, which understandably this

poor kid, all he's ever known is nine months with this foster home, and

then he comes to something completely different, but also lots, there's lots

of unknowns about his medical history, and he probably has some very nearly

diagnosed conditions now, eight years later, probably ADHD, probably autism.

He's just been given an education health care plan from a local

authority so he gets support in school.

And we're on a next season with him now, and I see him finish his primary

school year and get the right year seven provision for him, because he's

probably going to need some support.

But he does love us now, and he's firmly attached, and him and his

sister have a normal love hate sibling relationship, I'd say.

for having me.

But it has been, I'd say my whole married life for the reasons that

I've just shared and many other have been incredibly difficult.

I suppose the other really important thing to add that would explain why

it's been so difficult is that when I married my husband, it was a church

wedding, both going on with God.

And over the years, my story is that my relationship with God has probably

grown from strength to strength.

But actually, that's not true.

My husband and he isn't going to church.

So we have actually nearly got divorced a couple of times as well.

So yeah, it's been an interesting 20 years we've been together,

and it's been an interesting very interesting 20 years, certainly not.

Look at all the people that we were on the discipleship training scheme

with who married their, the love of their dreams and they've gone on to

have loads of lovely children and fulfilling careers and I'm like great

well done that's lovely because that wasn't hasn't quite been my story but

there's so much there's so much I don't know like everybody's life

can look nice and neat from the outside and, the reality is everyone faces

challenges, don't they, in different ways.

But Joe, like you, you skimmed over quite a lot of years there and quite a lot of

stuff that happened and, you could do a whole podcast on any one of those things.

You had your brother died tragically in a rail traffic accident.

Very young, you had a lot of childhood trauma before that, then you've had

like infertility and miscarriage losses, you've, been through the adoption

process, you've had your own health issues you've taken on a child who's got

a lot of additional needs, which is its own challenge, talked about spiritual

challenges there's a whole raft of things that are like, I know that's

over quite a number of years, you're talking about 20

years of a life there, they

didn't want to get into it, but the really key thing, Anna,

is that a friend of yours as well, we lost my best friend as well to cancer.

And tragically, her husband had died of cancer the year before, leaving their

child an orphan, which just doesn't happen in this day and age either, does it?

And so that had, that really marked me.

This is somebody that we've been praying for years.

The church had been praying for this family.

We talk about what do you do when, tragedy happens to a family or an illness.

We did everything right.

Prayer, fasting and she's, they both still passed away.

So yeah that, that's been a challenge as well.

And loads of different challenges that we just lightly

touched on there and I know we could, if we had more time, we could go

into way more depth on all of them.

But how has all of that kind of shaped or changed your view of God?

How has it shaped your faith?

Because, in spite of all these challenges that some people would

have just gone, Oh God, where are you?

You haven't answered my prayers.

Life's too difficult.

You can't be real.

I just walked away, but you haven't done that.

You're still here.

Your faith's stronger than ever,

I think.

Yeah.

So tell us what are some of those

experiences like how they shaped you and changed your view of God?

What have you learned?

Yeah.

I feel really fortunate that I had that initial tangible presence of

God when I was 21 in my room at uni.

I had that tangible presence of God when my brother died.

I remember there was one Christmas when my husband and I were very

close to divorce and I'd walk in the dark because I didn't want to go

back home and again, I just remember feeling the tangible presence of God.

So I guess I've been really fortunate that in real times of

crisis, I felt the presence of God.

Now I know all the friends who haven't, so I feel really blessed so they have

sustained me really and I'm just.

Choosing to believe the word as well.

For that scripture, for I know the plans of how few declares the Lord

plans to give you a hope and a future.

And I think the bit that we forget to look at after that, it says, and

then you will pray to me and you will call on me and I will answer.

And I think what I've learned to do.

It's like my personality as well, I'm quite an open book, which is

why I'm really happy to share my story on a podcast, but you have to

be an open book with God as well.

For me, it's about saying to God, and I've certainly, just like when I first

came to Christian, I was like, God, show yourself, you do something, I have been

that honest with God throughout these experiences of just God, I cannot do this.

I do not feel like a Christian, this is not how life's supposed to be,

this is not what I signed up for, this is not what I expected, and despite

everything I've thrown at God, He's always been there, He's always come

back, I've always felt the presence, He's always sent people to minister to me.

I remember a few months after my brother died, I was sat at home

in my pyjamas about three o'clock in the afternoon drinking port and

someone from the church came to visit.

It was a friend of my husband's really, so they'd probably more

come to visit my husband than me.

But I opened the door to him.

And I just said, listen, take me as you find me because I'm not in a good place.

And he came in and he said, listen, you are where you are.

If you're still drinking port in your pajamas at three o'clock

in the afternoon and six months time, then we'll address it.

But for now, you just be who you need to be.

And I just think to get that response for somebody from the church, being allowed

to be real, being allowed to be honest.

No Christian platitudes, those kinds of experiences stood

me in good stead, really.

And I suppose for me, because I became a Christian in that move of the Holy Spirit,

I feel like I've learned loads more about the Holy Spirit even in recent years,

but there was always that understanding that the Holy Spirit was here with us.

And also I think because I've been involved in the occult, I had a good

understanding of the fact that there's two dimensions, that there's God's kingdom

and then there's the world and the enemy's kingdom, and how we are in a battle,

so I have felt like I am in a battle.

But again, years ago, we were going to go on mission on this Disciple

Training Scheme that we were both on, and I remember someone, coming

to pray for us before we go, and this person prayed for me, and

they said, You've got steel in you.

And that is very much how I feel God has created me, like I have got steel in me.

It's like a God given sort of character, but he has also worked with me, and

the Holy Spirit has also you know, got alongside me and nurtured me and shown me

and then that understanding that I had of the spiritual dimensions, understanding

that my upbringing was not God's plan for me, that there's always, and we're

all, we're always being attacked.

I've been able to see life like that, really.

I've got there's a family that I know that have had a terrible, tragic loss as

well, and it's totally turned them away from God, because I think they didn't have

that, they don't have that understanding of us being in a battle but what I say

to people is, it never, it doesn't say anywhere in the Word that life will be

easy, In fact, I think for us in the Western world, it's going to get harder.

We are going to face persecution and things.

I think a lot of people grow up thinking, oh if I follow

God, life's going to be great.

It doesn't say that in the word, it just says, when you walk through the

valley of the shadow of the death, you'll fear no evil, I'll be with

you, and that's my experience really.

Yeah,

that's it, isn't it?

It's like what God promises is his presence, not what you want, like

the right outcomes or the happy end.

Neat, comfortable life.

Yeah.

It strikes me as well, Jo, when you're talking just then, because

you've mentioned that first couple of times from Jeremiah, about I

know the plans I have for you.

And I think the other thing that I always think about that first,

which is people often forget the context that it was written in.

Yeah.

So it's written in that context of God saying, promising I know the plans

I have for you here in the place, in the desert place, in the hard place.

It was like calling them to stay where they were and saying, I'm not going to

deliver you into, an easier place yet.

You're going to stay here in the place of slavery, in the place of, difficulty

for another 70 years or something, I think it is when we look at the passage,

but I will bless you here in the middle of the trial and the tribulation and

the difficulties and the challenges.

And I think it's so easy to miss that context.

which creates such a nuance on that verse because it's yes I have plans to

prosper you and to bless you and all of this stuff but that was God's promise

in the middle of the whole place and staying and and that kind of grit and

determination that you were talking about it's exactly that it's like staying in

the whole place even when sometimes it feels like easier just to walk out yeah

that's it trusting God to bless you there yeah and I think The

thing that really encourages me is it gives you, it, my experiences give

you integrity when you go and speak to somebody else, so that family that, walked

away from God now, I can still, I still feel like I can send them the texts,

I can make the phone calls, I can drop cards because I'm not talking, I know

what I'm talking about, I've been through grief, I've been through sudden loss

myself and although everyone's experience is unique and I wouldn't begin to, say

my experience is the same as theirs.

I can at least minister to people and support people from having been,

which I think is really valuable.

And I'd encourage people, if you've had a lovely life, don't feel that

you can't minister to and support anybody who's in a tragic situation.

That's not what I'm saying at all, but I think sometimes people just need somebody

who can get alongside them, who can totally understand and weep with them.

And, I've been with a girlfriend today who's had a horrific upbringing

herself, and she doesn't feel weird and strange because when I talk about

my lives, there's lots of parallels.

Yeah.

And she feels reassured and she feels like she's a baby Christian and she

feels like she can progress and she can work through things with God because

here's somebody else who says, yes, I've been there, I've walked that.

And that's what discipleship isn't it?

Jesus said.

Come follow me, and if you meet somebody who's in pain or been through painful

situations, you can say to them, come and let me share my experiences

of what I've been through with God.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you touched on a bit you're supporting some families and some individuals

at the moment, but, where is life up to right now for you what's God

doing in and through your life today?

Because you're quite involved in prayer movement, and we're all at

the moment, aren't you, and you've got a real heart for that too.

You just briefly tell us a little bit about that as

well.

Yeah, so there's two things really for me.

Obviously working as a police officer I either have to support victims as an

investigator investigating their crime or, I have the occasional opportunity

to support people who've been bereaved and that I've supported a couple of

families and that's been a real privilege.

But on a personal level, I've been through a bit of a journey where I was

constantly, I've been involved with really good churches, I've been so blessed,

I've been involved with three really good churches, one at uni, one that we met at

in Liverpool, and then over here on the Wirral, a really good church as well.

But I realised that I'd been, all these years, waiting for, I've been

saying to church leaders, I'll do that, I'll do that, I can do that, I can do

that, I can do that, I never, Being chosen or certainly in recent years,

I think people probably look at me and think you are a really busy mom.

You've got this adopted child, you've got, these issues and

you've got a really busy job.

Yeah.

But I just really had a heart for God, I want to do something for

you and it's not happening in the church, and what is that all about?

And it was, that was a real barrier to me.

And I was like, God, you've put a call on all of our lives

and you know what should I do?

And I just kept going back to the thing I've always loved is prayer.

And I remember years ago, and we are probably talking about 25 years ago,

I went to hear a missionary who was home on sabbatical talk about the being

overseas in Africa and they said, lots of people think they want to work in a

ministry or a mission or whatever, but what if God calls you to be a missionary?

The person who gets on their knees every night in front of the fireplace

and prays for all the other ministries.

And I was like, Oh gosh, no, I don't want to do that.

That's not for me.

But actually as the years have gone on, I think that is me.

Like I have a real heart for prayer.

And because I've gone from hopelessness to hope, because I believe that any

situation can be transformed through my own story and my own experiences,

it gives me a real heart for prayer.

So one of the things that I've done in recent months is a few other girlfriends

on the Wirral and men as well, similar things are happening, we feel like God's

taking people outside of the church, not that we were fully committed to our

churches, but ministries separate from the church, and those ministries seem

to be about bringing unity as well.

So I wrote down so I could remember it the scripture that

God really spoke to me about.

And it's John 17, 23, and I'm reading it from the New Living Translation, and

it says, and it's Jesus speaking, and it says, I am in them, and you are in me.

May they experience such perfect unity, that the world will know that you sent

me, and that you love them as much as, that you love them as much as you love me.

And what I've realised in these last 28 years is, We've got lovely churches

in the UK, some amazing born again churches, Holy Spirit filled churches,

but the world isn't seeing it, it isn't seeing this unity, it isn't seeing

what Jesus said, and God's really put it on my heart for unity and not

just me, other people on the Wirral.

So we've started a prayer movement called Bridge Prayer, and we meet

second Tuesday of every month.

And, and, anybody who wants to come, anyone who's Bible believing Christian

who wants to come from any denomination and come together in unity to see, to

believe and see that the world could be transformed and there could be a

revival on the Wirral so there's a web, there's a website, so if people

are interested in looking at it, that's Bridge Prayer Wirral, all one

word, bridgeprayerwirral.carrd.co, and card is spelled C A R R D, so

bridgeprayerwirral.carrd.co, and contact details and an email address

and stuff is on there if anyone wants to know more about joining us.

We see this, there's like a group of people across the whirl who are Tapping

into what already exists, and don't get me wrong, we firmly believe we stand

on the shoulders of giants, this isn't about doing anything new, but this

is about, I read a book in the summer called Britain's Spiritual Inheritance,

which I really recommend as well, I think it was by a lady called Diana

Chapman or something like that, and it was a soft look or a soft touch on

all the moves of revival in the UK.

And we've got such an inheritance in our country and the Northwest has as well.

And there's something there to be built on.

We just need to tap into it.

Revival.

Isn't happening at the moment, Smith Wigglesworth prophesied

that there would be revival.

I think he prophesied it in like 1946 or something like that, or maybe

even earlier, and we haven't seen it.

Maybe the Toronto Blessings and everything that went on from then

is part of it, but I firmly believe that God wants to do something in the

UK, people often ask me as a police officer do you, Feel a real heaviness.

Do you feel a real darkness in the world?

Does your job weigh heavy on you?

And it doesn't.

I feel really blessed that I can come home and give it to God.

However, I do have insight into just how dark the world

is and just how broken it is.

But I believe that God's gonna come and do something.

One of the things that has been really interesting in the last few years is, I

felt that when I became a Christian, this is no criticism of any churches because

they've been fantastic churches, It was like your faith stops at the cross, and

you become a Christian, and you believe Jesus died for you, and he'll be with

you, and live your life, and tell people about Jesus, but actually, what I've

really come to understand in recent years is, there's a whole story post the cross.

That Jesus is coming back, that God is going to redeem everything.

There's gonna be a new heaven and new earth.

And not all churches emphasize that very much.

But I firmly believe as I'm getting older, and maybe 'cause it's a

moment, I've got these kids that I don't wanna leave in this broken

world is there is an urgency to.

Preach the gospel, see people saved because Jesus is coming back.

And I wish I'd grasped that 28 years ago, because I probably would have

been even more radical than I have been, but yeah, I've grasped it now.

So prayer, and believing to see the world transformed.

That's

amazing, yeah, so inspiring to hear, and I think you're

right, there is such a legacy and even though we sometimes think,

oh, there's not much happening,

or the UK

today can seem quite dormant, and like you say, there's a lot of hard

things going on, and it can seem quite hopeless and broken, but you think, but

then I hear people talk about what God's doing in the world globally, and the rate

at which people are becoming Christians is exponential in this digital age.

It's happening faster and faster, and there's more Christian content out there,

like we're making it now, aren't we?

But the gospel is moving forward at such a pace, and you don't always

glimpse that when you live in your own.

A little life here, but globally there's a huge movement of God and

so yeah, why not here, why not now?

So I love what you're doing there, Jo, and we will share your website in

the show notes on the podcast as well.

So if anybody is interested, if anyone's on the Wirral or any anywhere

in Merseyside, and has the heart to meet and pray, then do look that up.

Jo, we could probably keep talking all night, but I suppose my final question

is what if, there's so much we've talked about, but if you could distill it

all down to one thing, which I know is really hard to do, what would be, like,

just one thing or one key lesson or

one thing that you've learned up to this point if you could sum it up

in a phrase or a sentence or Yeah,

I don't know, I don't know.

About this before, Anna, and I just felt the phrase came to

my mind, keep on keeping on.

And I was saying, God, how do you explain that?

Keep on keeping on because united we stand and nothing can

separate us from the love of God.

So just keep on keeping on, just, yeah, just really encourage people

that wherever you are and you walk with God, whatever it looks like, keep on

keeping on because we're on a journey.

The world, humanity is on a journey, I love that phrase as well, it's not over

till the fat lady sings, like this is not over, God's story is not over, this

is not about us living here on earth until we get to go to heaven, this is,

God's story is living and active and he's got a plan for the world, so yeah,

keep on keeping on, keep the faith.

Yeah.

Love that.

That's such a great place to that's such a

good point to finish on really.

So yeah.

I love that.

Keep on keeping on.

Jo, thank you so much for joining us today.

I know we could probably chat for much longer, but we'll just have

to have you back again sometime.

But yeah, thank you for sharing your story.

So generously and honestly with us today, I know it'll bless a

lot of people listening, so thank

you.

No, thank you for having me.

It's been a pleasure.

Pleasure, and thanks everyone for listening in.

We'll see you again soon.

And just like that, we've reached the end of

another fascinating conversation.

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