"Why is my building surveyor being so difficult?" 

Almost every builder has asked this question at some point, usually when facing another compliance issue or documentation request. But what if we've been looking at this relationship all wrong? We sat down with Dave from Permit Approvals Plus to understand why building surveyors might actually be builders' best allies, not obstacles.

In an industry where regulations constantly evolve, trusted building surveyors aren't just helpful - they're essential. They bring knowledge that ensures builds meet stringent industry standards, creating construction that performs well long-term.

For builders planning projects, engaging surveyors early isn't a setback - it's a strategy. This partnership provides tools for construction excellence while protecting against compliance issues that could surface later.

LINKS:

Permit Approvals Plus

Connect with us on Instagram:   @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:   www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website:  www.carlandconstructions.com/

ever feel like there's a better way to build, so do we.

I'm Matt and welcome to the Mindful Builder Podcast, where we believe

in education through storytelling.

Join me and my co-host Hamish, as we both have a passion for building better

breaking barriers and sharing our experience within the building industry.

We're not pretending to know it all.

In fact, we're learning right alongside you.

Join us each week as we tackle complex topics like building science and mental

wellbeing, inviting the brightest minds to connect curiosity with expertise.

We want this to be a real conversation, encouraging vulnerability

through honest discussions.

So if you love this podcast and you're ready to join in, learn and

Build Better, please do us a favor and subscribe wherever listening.

It's the best way to make sure you never miss an episode.

Plus it really helps us out.

And if you're feeling extra generous, a five star rating and

a quick review would be amazing.

Your support helps us reach new listeners and even better allows us to book

incredible guests for the future episodes.

Thank you so much for being part of our community.

We truly appreciate you and now onto this week's episode.

Hamish had a question.

Why do building surveys make our life so hard?

But we don't, I agree.

I get you.

But I reckon if you asked 20 builders that aren't related at all,

they're like, ah, fucking buildings today.

Oh, they're making my life difficult.

why do you think that's the case?

We're on your side, by the way.

So this this trust where this conversation's going.

No, that's all right.

So, so effectively if a builder's saying that they're probably being picked

up on something that, that they've done differently from the drawings.

Yeah.

So effectively they're potentially breached section 16 in which you must

build to the, the documents that have been issued by the buildings fair.

If you don't.

don't

And you change something, then you are the problem.

Yeah.

So the easiest way to do it is ask the builder survey first.

So, so the builder has obviously a talk to the owner and says,

no, we want to change something.

Yeah, no worries.

But we need to discuss it with the designer.

And also then the designer goes, well, we need to discuss it with the

building survey and see what, what potentially is gonna affect this.

Yep.

And then the building survey gets asked the question and he'll say, maybe

an energy report needs to be redone.

The engineering needs to be redone.

It may trigger planning changes, it may trigger report and consents now.

Yeah.

So once the building survey or the inspector, um, gets to the job to, to

check something out and it's different, the building survey has to act.

Mm.

and

And I, the first question I asked is, I put in an email, why has this changed?

And I'll give 'em a chance to respond and ask why.

Yeah.

Or say why has it changed?

Oh, we, because we did this because, well, tell me why

section 16 hasn't been breached.

Yeah.

So then I have to act.

So either issue a written direction to fix to go back to the documents

or issue a building notice to show cause why they shouldn't demolish

it and go back to the drawings.

So my brain's going everywhere.

Me too, actually.

And, and I've just realized we haven't introduced David

from permit approvals plus.

Oh, that's, this is how our brain's working.

so

so Matt, you've been using David for a number of years.

I can remember the first time I actually met David actually.

Well, let's, let's,

let's put that in context.

Matt doesn't use me.

So that's as a building surveyor.

That's a really good point.

Actually.

I get appointed by the owner.

That's a really good point.

Right.

And Matt is a regular builder that we come across.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a really point and makes my life so much easier.

I'm gonna give you any advice to a builder.

I look at a building surveyor as like a free employee to check your

work at certain stages of the build.

Mm-hmm.

It's a very easy way to describe it because you are getting ticked off to

make sure you are doing things right.

So my clients, you unfortunately, the risk then becomes a lot on you, which

is a whole different conversation.

Yeah.

But building surveyors there not to supervise the builder.

You did all your schooling, you went to the VBA, you got your registration, right?

Yeah.

Take some responsibility for what you're doing.

We are not, I told you we're not a

site supervisor.

Yeah.

Can, can you just move that please?

How many times do you get told that?

Can you just, can you do this for us?

What do you mean?

Do what?

But they, can you just move that for us or do this on site for us?

Don't you get told or asked to be treated like a tradie?

Sometimes.

Don't.

Some people treat you like crap.

Oh look, most of the time we go to the site there's no one there, right?

So, so I like it when.

If I go and do an inspection.

Yeah.

And I don't do all my own inspections.

I have contract inspectors, so that's one of the biggest furs of, of people

they think that the building surveyor does the inspection all the time.

That's not the case.

You are building some inspector.

So we actually, we at source, you know, two inspectors, et cetera like that.

And then obviously you can't, you can't

be everywhere at

once.

No, that's right.

Yeah.

Otherwise you wouldn't, you, you wouldn't be a building surveyor doing work because

you, you, there's too much work out there for you to just do everything.

Well, just like Matt and Ian swinging hammer every day.

Yeah, that's right.

But you are a building surveyor.

Mm-hmm.

As well.

So you are actually, you are the one signing off on it.

You're not the inspector as well.

Well, you are, but

Well, the inspector does a report.

Yeah.

And then effectively I put that report and transfer it into

a written direction to fix.

Yeah.

Then once the items are fixed or the engineer provides a

comment, then um, obviously then it goes back to the inspector.

They book in another inspection.

He goes back, signs it off.

Yeah.

Okay.

Now a big part of building survey is a big part of a building survey's role is often

delivering what might be perceived as criticism or calling out non-compliance.

So as Hamish said, our audience is made up of builders,

tradies, architects, homeowners.

Um, how do you approach these conversations?

Because tradies don't like being told what they're, oh, you don't

know what I'm talking about.

You're doing this wrong.

Like, they will take it wrong sometimes.

Sometimes,

yeah.

But it is quite funny.

You know, sometimes you actually, if someone does get a little bit

narky on site, I always say, well, what standard is that out of?

I've seen you hold your own.

Don't worry.

It's great.

And some people, some, some tradies can't, can't tell you what standard they're

actually working to and working under.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And that just like, is that just like unravels them or

do you, do you know what, I think what I think it is is that, so I think PE

people don't like being called out for something, especially when they're,

and they're always gonna become more defensive if they think that you are.

Right.

Like say if you called me out on something.

Mm-hmm.

And I was pretty confident that I was doing it right.

But then there was a little bit in the back of my mind that was

saying, well, hang on, maybe he is.

Well we get called out all the time building surveys.

Yeah.

Because every building surveyor, whilst all the act and the regs and

the standards and the NCC is all there.

So I should say that the act comes first.

Yep.

And the regulations then the B, CA then standards.

So the BCA will override the standards even though the BCA

does note the standards in there.

Alright.

So I get called out all the time because, oh, this building surveyor

let that go because of this.

This building surveyor, he interprets it that way.

So it is all about individual interpretation and that's all we can do.

And that's, that's probably hard.

I'm not quite

satisfied with what I interpret.

Yeah.

And you are, you are by far the most diligent when it comes to reviewing plans.

Like I've got some on site at the moment that, I dunno, I don't even

know if they're being looked at.

I'll be really honest with you.

I don't even, I reckon they just signed off on it.

I've, I've got corrugated roof at two degrees all over the plan.

Like, come on.

here's a question for you.

Who's liable there?

Whose responsibility is it there?

Is it if, if the plans are being signed off by building surveyor and the building

permit's been issued, then all of a sudden there is corrugated on at two degrees.

Who's responsible for that?

Because there's, in my mind, there's three layers.

There's, well, it's a hard one

because the designer should know.

So the designer, well, there's four layers there.

So the designer puts on there that, you know, it complies with as S 30, 3500.

Yeah.

So, um, have they checked to make sure, but I mean, it's quite clear

in the BCA exactly what's required.

Yeah.

What the minimum pitches are.

And that's a really

basic one.

Yeah.

We do check pictures.

Yeah.

We check box gutter sizes.

we check box gutter sizes in relation to that.

They're a minimum size.

Yeah.

Not that they can take the actual, um, thing because we're

not involved in the design.

Yeah.

Okay.

But I like to have, obviously, you know, to make sure that there's

sumps there, there, the rainhead, there's a detail, et cetera.

So there are some, the biggest, um, one of the biggest items that we actually

pick up on is that the computations don't match the schedule on the, um,

for the beam sizes on the engineering.

Actually, actually we noticed that a lot.

We get that a lot.

Like can you go back and just change the date or the, the job number or,

for people that dunno, there's generally three documents that

the engineer will provide.

There's computations, there's the certificate, and then

there's the engineering.

Mm. Documents.

Mm-hmm.

What you are saying is you review all the comps.

Yep.

So you, you'll actually review all the computations.

It might

be 120 pages.

Well, okay.

Okay.

So you are not just relying on the fact that they've issued a certificate,

you are reading through it all.

Yep.

Reading through their certificate.

I that to make sure that they're properly, you know, registered it all the, the

parts of the BCA and the standards that they reference are all the applicable

ones and they're up to date in relation to the actual standard current.

I love your

face right now, Hamish.

Oh, I just, I'm, I'm thinking of the volume of work that goes into that.

So

this is why, this is why I think, uh, building surveyors are not respected.

Yeah.

But I think a lot, I think a, I think a lot of architects and builders

don't respect building surveys.

I'm gonna be really honest.

Yeah, I dunno whether other, I, I have no idea whether other building survey

surveyors do that, but we wanna make sure that the documentation is, is correct.

So, and, and,

and can I just jump in here as a builder?

Like I'm running through my mind now, like thinking of you reviewing all of that.

'cause if I'm being honest with you, I don't read, I'm not

going through the computations.

I don't think I've, I don't have that.

I'm not reading it.

Like, I'm just trusting that that certificate that's relating to that

design and the computations is correct.

Most of the time it's not.

Wow.

Okay.

But you'll have a,

you'll have a schedule, let's say RRB four is a, a 360 by 45.

You go to the computations and, um, or sorry, vice versa, they

may have done a two 50 P ffc.

Yeah.

On the schedule.

But you go to the comps, it's timber bean.

okay.

They haven't given an OR option.

Oh, neither or,

yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I say, well, can you fix this?

RB four doesn't match from the comps to the schedule, so

we need to, but the best part

of what Dave and his team do is they do it up front.

They do it at the start of the project, not at the end

when everything's been built.

Because that's the issue I have with so many billing surveys is that they do it

right at the end of the project asking for certificate for this, the compliance

of that, the code mark for that.

He asked for it upfront.

I mean, I, I would've, but the code

mark has to be asked

for upfront.

Yeah.

It's, I was just gonna say, because inverted comm, it is

a performance solution report.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I would, I would argue that most of that stuff in the building surveys that

we work with would ask for all of that before they issue a building permit.

I had one recently, they just asked for my contract and insurance.

It, that was it.

Don't name names.

No.

What was that?

I'm not, I had, they just asked my insurance and my, and my, um, contract.

That was it.

Nothing else.

So maybe it got tied up before it that I didn't see, I wasn't privy to.

But, um, it, it just, it was a, been a very different eye-opening

experience compared to working with Dave so often than changing.

And change is always hard.

I understand that and everyone does things differently.

I can respect that.

But I still remember the first day I actually met you.

I was in West CRA and we were doing stump holes and we hit rock everywhere.

He made me go through every single hole with the, the crowbar and make

me ding every single one of them.

Did you

make Matt

do it?

Said, yeah, it was actually,

that was when I was on the tools too.

Did Matt actually do that?

Sometimes I, sometimes I pick up the actual crowbar.

Yes.

I've seen that.

It's easy to hear.

so say I've got a set of documentations engineering, so I would say almost

99.9% of the people who are referring to those set of documents are

just looking at the engineering.

Mm-hmm.

They're not looking at the certificate.

They're not looking at the comms.

No, I know my team mate.

Anyway.

Hmm.

So what happens if, if it does get through and there's a building

permit issued and the comps here don't match what's on the drawings?

Well, let's say, where does, where does the risk lie?

Well, let's say some, somewhere down the track.

beam fails and it hasn't been comped out.

And who's liable?

Well, that's what I'm asking.

It's like a shared,

it'd be almost semi shared responsibility between you and the engineer.

The issue is, well, I

don't know.

Is it my responsibility to check that, their documentation when

they're a registered practitioner?

No,

I, I totally agree.

That's that.

So this is where I go back to and when I have trades, questioning

the building surveyor, it's like, are you signing off on it?

Because the only people that hold the license here today, and me as a builder,

builder and the building surveyor, I

have seen him.

I'm pretty sure I've seen on the disciplinary register that an engineer

did get, um, disciplined for, um, uh, computations, not matching the schedule.

Well, think about Brad's

job that he did, the hempcrete house with the beam, that he completely

fucked up the, the hemp and got the, the dry weight, not the wet weight.

And all the, the bearers were just completely 50 mil s saag in the middle.

Yeah.

Like, and he'd done the runner and gone.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Well, yes.

And

then

Yasha came in and

saved the day on that one.

Mm-hmm.

Um, look, it's not an easy industry, to be quite honest.

Um, but from where I came from, I, I think it's, yeah, it's,

it's, it is relatively easy.

So you were a carpenter because you're a tribute, a chippy by trade.

Yep.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Worked on domestic homes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, um, uh, up the country with the old man, I was

apprenticed with the old man.

Yeah.

How'd that go?

Um, yeah, it was all right.

Yeah.

He was hard, but yeah, I, you know, can't begrudge him 'cause he taught me a lot.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Um,

And then up country, it kinda got a bit quiet.

Yeah.

So, um, and he actually, um, he was a, a foreman, a general foreman working

on multi stories in the, in the city.

Yeah.

Big Collins Place, Southern Cross, all that sort of stuff.

Works.

Some big boys.

so he goes, oh, I'm gonna go and get a job as a, a foreman and then,

um, I'll rent you out to the, the construction company as the Apprentice.

So that's how I got into commercial construction.

Ended up working, you know, working my way up to site manager.

Yeah.

Looking after $90 million projects.

And um,

and that was probably back in the seventies when $90

million was a lot of money.

No, a bit,

not

that old asshole,

but I mean, I guess So you would've done Mark from Mbhs work.

I'm just, I'm just thinking about what sort of, I mean all this stuff

is really good to know because, you know, when my experiences limited.

to,

To, to you on my sites and what, what Matt, what Matt is.

But I know that, um, Rory, who works for me, he's very particular mm-hmm.

With all the stuff that he does and has a very, very proud of

the, the things that he does.

And he even mentioned, he goes, oh shit, David checks over everything.

I've never experienced this before.

Which is a, an amazing thing, by the way.

That's what we're supposed to do.

He measures war heights, which is great.

I, I know you're supposed to do that, but, but, but this is the

first time we've actually experienced that, but actually makes sense.

If you are looking after a $90 million project, you have

to check all that stuff off.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You have to be a very good organizer.

Yep.

Yeah.

So spend time wise.

Yep.

But yeah.

Um, look, a lot of clients like the fact that I've got all the knowledge and that,

and construction and everything like that, and I, I, you know, about concrete

plastering a whole lot, you know, um.

But others don't like it.

But

this is what we're kind of getting at before.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Others don't like it.

Yeah.

They're,

um, I've had builders that, that worked with, um, got along absolutely fantastic.

All of a sudden something happened and that was it.

They had a job with that.

They were the builder again.

Can, can you give an example of, and it wasn't

my, um, issue either.

It was, uh, they actually,

so its something that, it was something that you obviously had called them out

on that wasn't, that didn't comply with,

oh, I went to a three double story units.

Uh, get to site.

It's all tiled.

Oh, okay.

Oh, okay.

I walk in, you know, into the, the ground and ground floor and I must admit

nothing much really scares me, but yeah.

Put the wind up me, what I saw.

So Timber beams supposed to be three.

There was only two weed up with two 90 by 45 studs underneath.

Yeah.

No angle to angle brackets or anything.

Uh,

What are you doing?

Oh, the angles are coming.

I said, why do you put the roof on?

So we issued a stop work and, uh, building notice and, um, oh

yeah, he wasn't happy with me,

I, I'm trying to put myself in their shoes for two seconds.

How can he not be happy with you?

so just so, just for context, you are saying that the roofs were tiled

so so rule they were fully loaded fully and were meant to be tin, or

was it, was it meant to be tin?

No, to, yeah.

So actually, but, but the

point is that, that, that nothing, it wasn't bracketed brace.

No, but I'm

saying is I didn't know if they changed it from tin as well, so they added

extra load onto So I, but, but what I, I can't wrap my head around their

thinking like, you haven't done it.

Mm.

That's why Mr. Sign inspections has such a big.

Following that.

'cause he's just calling these people out for not doing things.

Mm-hmm.

Like, and it's created a scare tactic.

I don't like the way he goes about it personally.

mean, but if you'd like him or like him or love him, he's um, he's opened

people's eyes to No, I totally agree.

Some of the things that are actually happening out there.

I can imagine like you've got no problem with confrontation and

then seeing that would've been like

in

regard to like, to like that structure falling or faking.

Oh, it was just ridiculous.

I didn't even think it would come down to confrontation.

Just be like, oh, there's no confrontation.

What are you

doing?

Yeah.

You know,

like, this is

ridiculous.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

And on the spot he was like, nah, it's fine.

But the beams are

bowing because he put the wrong size beams in.

The engineer ended up going out there and he rang me and he said, oh my God.

Oh wow.

This is the worst I've seen.

He goes, 'cause I actually told him, I said, get, come get a he agro prop.

Put 'em in.

Right.

And then get the engineer out.

So that was a, you must do that now.

Yeah.

Because it was a risk of falling.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

I've had the same thing on another job.

I actually referred that builder to the B, BA.

Wow.

Are they the dumbest things you've seen on site?

Or have you seen some

Look, I wanted to ask that question then I'm just like, oh, is that a, and

like, I am curious, like I do wanna know what is, what is the, and it's not

for like building porn, being the sense of like trying to call

something that was just stupid.

Like, I'm just interested to see like, like to me that's

extremely stupid as a builder.

It,

it

is.

Is there anything that like tops that

they're probably the worst two.

Um,

I'm just

I'm trying to think.

There's

one that you've sent me that was quite funny though.

Yeah, look.

Yeah, look,

1, 1,

one, one was, and look, that's just, it was an owner builder, and.

and.

Yeah, really green and really lent on me for, for guidance.

Yeah.

And that, and you know, like, that's

fine.

That's, that's quite fine.

And that, um, but at the end of the day, you know, they go and get

their own builders sensitivity.

They do the courses and they're supposed to have a registered

practitioner overseeing the work.

Yeah.

Um, so it was a, um, small job but had pads.

And the pads were actually poured in the, the front of the house, um, in form tube.

Yep.

And he was gonna grab a excavator and drop 'em in the holes and push 'em down.

I know.

I was waiting.

I've been watching your response here.

Yeah.

So it, such stupid, I guess a sign.

I said what?

And yeah, he said, they're out the front.

I said, and, and, and I said to him, I said, that's not how it goes mate.

I said, you're supposed to pour it in the hole.

Did you lie?

Okay.

Not laugh.

No, no, no.

So, you know, like, and it's just, he was just a little bit inexperienced.

That's it.

But, but I feel that's a common theme.

Like owner builders, I feel like either you are unreal 'cause

you've got so much knowledge and you have really gone all in it.

Or you're at the opposite end and you just, well I'll just build my own

house how it's four walls and a window.

How can I, I'll just put it up together and off we go.

I'll do what I want.

And

I've had, I've had owner builders that have been absolutely on the ball.

Like James from Alter Rico did his own house, like would've nailed it.

And he did.

Yeah.

And of course, you know, they, they should be having a supervisor

who is a registered practitioner.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean that's probably, probably something that we should sort of expand on too.

Like, it's not just as easy to go, oh, I'm an owner builder

now I can just start building.

There are other layers around,

well you're supposed to engage, um, subcontractors who are

actually registered practitioners.

Yep.

So who, who provide, who provide insurances and et

cetera, brick layers, et cetera.

But there's hardly any, isn't there

one licensed brick layer?

I'm pretty sure.

Yeah.

I don't know.

So that's why, like you as a builders, right, you could actually say, well, I'm

gonna charge a fee for a supervisory role.

Oh, okay.

So you are the registered practitioner,

but do I sign off on it?

if the cost of, um, new supervising works over 10,000, do you have to sign

a contract and get warranty insurance?

So this is their own builder though.

So I don't

know.

So this is a very, this is a 'cause you've now jobs in my brain.

One thing that we see is like clients, oh, I'm gonna supply the

windows, or we wanna do this trade.

We wanna bring our own trade.

The reality is you need a separate building.

If you're gonna supply anything over 10 grand, they don't need

a separate building permit.

But why should it go on my building permit?

Would they need a

license then to sign off on those things?

No.

If, if anything's over $16,000 Yeah.

And they're going to supply and organize their own contractors to install Yeah.

Then it's an exclusion on your contract.

Yeah.

So they have to go and get owner builder's consent for that work.

So the building permit will say that the builder is doing this.

Yeah.

And then the owner's doing this, so it's part of the same Yeah.

Because you wouldn't be able to finish off your part Yeah.

Without them finishing off their part.

Yeah.

So hypothetically in the, the situation, so they might provide

their own electric, uh, electrician's a bad one 'cause they're licensed.

I'm gonna provide my own joiner.

Joinery.

Yeah.

So, and

tops.

Yeah.

So

that, that's

which would be well over 16,000 isn't.

Yeah.

So they

would now need a license.

But they're the o there's two parts.

They're the only builder on that joinery, but two now per the code.

Shouldn't that joinery need a person, need to be licensed for doing work over

$16,000 and also hold a license gray area.

True.

But

technically you are still the registered builder on the project,

so you are overseeing the work.

And correct me if I'm wrong, so I should then charge, you're still, you're still

coordinating when they're gonna come in and do their work, aren't they?

So you're still in control of the site as a registered builder.

So effectively you're doing super advisory for them, even though, 'cause you're not

gonna say, the owner's not gonna say, oh, I'm coming in tomorrow and say, hang on

a sec, we've got this, this, and this.

You can come in now down the track.

This

is a pretty good now because it opens the door because I, I'm

the builder on that, that work.

I can come in on when I want because I hold the license on that one.

It's such a gray area.

I feel,

I think I've got, I've got one of the moment where there's been

during the construction where the owner's taken off the builder.

So I've made it known that, well, I wanna know what the work is being excluded.

Yep.

And I wanna know how much it is.

And if it is, then we'll have to amend the building permit, or they'll have to

go and get, um, owner builder's consent.

But if the owner's just supplying and I said, you are putting it

in the builder, then that's fine.

That's different.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have no problem with them supplying some certain things, but like, oh, windows.

I wouldn't let a client supply and have that outside the

permit.

Well, you gotta, you gotta work out where they're from.

Back in the day, they were from China and they had no Australian standard, but

now they have an Australian standard.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I've recently done a project where the clients have, and

we've come into it late, and the builder that they were dealing with

couldn't get insurance, and the clients had already paid for the sips.

Okay.

It's maybe, yeah, it's probably, yeah.

Okay.

They, they, they'd

paid the deposit on the windows.

Did you just refund them and then pay 'em and then.

Oh.

I mean, I won't go into all the details of like what we actually did and what the

agreement was, but we came to an agreement that I was really comfortable with.

That's fair.

Okay.

That, that as a builder.

'cause I know even if they sell that house tomorrow, and I've still got

a warranty on a certain amount of the work they've done on that site.

But a hundred percent of the time if there's an issue, even if it's something

that the clients have provided, I'm gonna get a phone call first.

Yeah, yeah.

Without a doubt.

The VBA or whoever they're called these days is gonna go, oh, you are the builder.

There's something wrong with the windows, you come and fix it.

Mm-hmm.

So I would actually have to go through the process of proving

that I didn't supply the windows.

Well, this is what's happening now with the consumer first attitude of the

building plumbing commission that with without insurance where, and we're gonna

get someone to talk about this 'cause it's quite a big change that where they can go

directly to the insurance company first before they even go to you potentially.

Yeah.

It's tricky topic to try and broach it.

We, we are

gonna, we're approaching it.

Don't worry.

We're getting someone on the talk through it.

so, so there's surveyors, there's land surveys and there's building surveys.

What's the difference?

Let's just establish that really quickly.

Well, land surveyors will do a reestablishment survey of the property.

Yep.

Um, they may do a feature survey as well of, um, next door.

What, where habitable rooms are site levels, et cetera.

Um, they don't issue building permits.

Yep.

We don't do reestablishment surveys.

Yep.

So then, um, during the build, so you are, you are issuing a permit.

What are the, the typical stages that you are coming in and checking?

Mandatory inspections?

Mandatory inspections.

So they're listed on the actual building permit.

Yep.

Mandatory inspection.

So let's say it's just a RAF slab, so pre slab, um, if it's on piers, obviously

we need to go inspect the piers.

Yep.

So there's pre slab reinforcement before the concrete's poured.

Yep.

Uh, frame.

Yep.

And then a final.

Yeah.

And then my follow up question to this is, what are the mandatory

inspections that you think are missing?

A building surveyor can call any mandatory inspection that he deems that should

be made under the act and the regs.

That's really interesting.

So

what are

are the mandatory inspections that you think we should be

including?

Yeah.

I believe there should be a pre plaster

Yep.

Inspection.

Um, which, which would include what,

what, what would you be looking at

to make sure the trades haven't cut the shit outta the frame.

Yep.

Every plumber and electrician is always just running

around scared.

Yep.

What about insulation and building wrap?

No, I, I feel like that one should require some form of a stat deck from the builder.

Like, it's really not hard to go around and inspect the wrap.

Well, you are, you are signing a stat deck anyway at the end of it saying that

you've, you've built to the energy rating.

I think that, I think that's a whole different topic.

I think verifying performance should be done by someone

outside of the building survey.

Uh,

what if that makes sense?

What about waterproofing?

I

think that potentially waterproofing should be, but I believe that should

be an independent consultant come in.

Because you gotta think that if a building surveyor does a waterproofing

inspection, once he sees it and is satis, let's say he's satisfied with it.

What's to say that the, the tiler who's gonna put a scre over the top

hasn't nicked it with his shovel, chucking the, you know, the scree in,

what's to say that no one has got a screw in their boot or whatever, and

they've walked over the, the, the actual waterproof and, and cut it.

Um, what's to say?

Yeah.

Why isn't that, why isn't that a responsibility of the builder to make

sure that before anything happens that.

Over the top of it that it is.

'cause once again, we do a frame inspection and then we walk away

and then the plumber and electrician come in and, you know, cut more

than 25 milli outta a bottom plate or anything like that, or stud.

we don't, we don't know about it.

Yeah.

So what's the chances of that gonna happen with the membrane as well?

Yeah.

That I know with our waterproofer, like he waterproofs he his tiling

the day after it's already a go.

Like it does not sit there.

Yeah.

My, my Waterproofer and Tyler are the same.

For the same person,

but, but it's a, yeah.

Oh yeah.

I that I think that's, if you're getting a separate waterproofer, quite dangerous.

Doesn't it?

Never works, in my

opinion.

It doesn't make sense in my, Tyler is the one that's issuing

the waterproofing certificate.

They are they licensed?

Yeah.

For waterproofing too?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dave would've seen mine.

Hmm.

So I sign how, how are you, how are you doing that?

I sign off on mine.

'cause I know he's a,

so, so you provide the waterproofing certificate?

Yeah.

Well, I sign off on it myself.

Yeah.

Huh.

I wouldn't do.

I've worked with Casey for 15 years and not once ever problem

and touch wood, but I also try.

There's a trust thing.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

No, of, of course, of course.

Like I trust him more than even your one, even though he give a certificate

because he, does that make sense?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like 100%.

But yeah.

Yeah.

I'm not saying that I, if I was using Casey for the first time, I would say

be wary because, well, I've got, I did, I would, I would be, if I was using him

for the first time, I'd be asking for waterproof.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So as a building surveyor, you have a discretion to interpret the NCC and the

Australian standards in a certain way.

Um, you also have the discretion of allowing builders to do

works outside of their license.

Is that correct?

So say if I'm a licensed builder, domestic builder, I can do class

one A, one B, class 10 building.

You're unlimited.

Yeah.

Unlimited.

Yep.

But can I also do class three under your discussion?

So,

so there is a, a section, maybe not a section, but it, there's a, a definition

of a, um, to do, uh, what word?

I love this.

A definition of a builder or an architect, et cetera.

And it says that a builder must be unlimited.

Yeah.

To do domestic, um, a registered architect so they can do the

building on, on their own house only.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

Um, but where it says, for non-domestic work, it says that it just has

to be a registered practitioner.

So it doesn't say unlimited, it doesn't say commercial just says,

so

cafe fit out, for

example.

Can I do it?

Well, potentially you could, as long as the building survey is satisfied

that you are experienced enough to.

So what's the point of these commercial licenses then?

Once again, it's up to the building surveyor.

Yeah.

Okay.

Effectively there's some building surveyors that would downright

say, nut, you need to be a commercially registered builder.

Um, I, on the other hand, have a different view.

Um, I won't allow any Tom, Dick, Harry, just to do it.

I want, I want to have some sort of evidence that they're experienced,

but like, but like for us, like hypothetically, like if it's gonna be an

office fit out, which is not falling under our license, we're completely capable of

doing it compared to, I can understand if we're building massive basements

and 15 stories or story car park.

Totally, totally different conversation.

Uh,

what's the height of a, a, a fire extinguisher to the

top of the fire extinguisher?

Um, it is 1200.

Yeah.

What's the bottom?

Uh, 800.

What's the bottom?

800? I dunno.

I'm just guessing between a hundred off the floor.

Yeah.

To 1200.

Yeah, I forgot.

And what's the height of the the, I've got idea.

Just sign up the top to the bottom of it.

What's the minimum to the bottom?

Uh, be 1500.

Two meters.

Two meters.

Are you experienced enough to do?

No, but I, but I can also look at the volume.

One of the N CCC in low.

Those SIGs.

Is it in volume one?

Yeah.

Isn't it all that stuff's in volume one, isn't it?

Volume two's A.

Wouldn't it be in 24?

44? Got no idea.

But didn't you say, I'm pretty

sure it's at 24 44.

I'm just asking the question.

No, no, but what I'm saying is like, again, if I'm assuming that

they've got plans as well, that the plans also dictate these things.

Look, I understand.

Although

their plans might say as per

as 24 44.

Well then I go grab the plans.

The thing in read that Like the standard?

Yeah, the standard.

Yeah.

But like, so, so I guess a handrail, I guess for a toilet, I guess.

Ah, oh, I do.

I guess the point is that, that, that, yeah, I, I, I dunno.

No, you're just picking me.

Fuck.

No, you asked, asked the question.

Wouldn't be, that would be a meter as well.

Wouldn't it be similar to like a, a handrail for a fall, fall protection?

What

standard?

I don't fucking know.

So you've, I

guess, I guess the point is you've got the discretion and you would

want, you would wanna be satisfied.

Yeah.

So I ask these

questions.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

No, no.

And you know, the, the, the reason I ask is that we've got a, um, SDA

certified home coming up next year.

Mm-hmm.

Who got that job.

And I actually, Matt Carlin, I actually see a real opportunity,

um, for high performance builders to kind of move into that space.

I actually think that we are really well positioned to deliver these buildings,

childcare centers, number 1 0 1 child.

Yeah.

Even,

even childcare centers too.

Like I kind of feel.

And I actually explored last week about how do I get my commercial license?

Yeah, why not?

But the thing is,

we've gotta show how much experience with it.

It's

a couple of years.

Yeah.

It's a couple of years.

And, or CBL.

Yeah.

Or, or, or, I need to, need to demonstrate that I've done that type.

Yeah.

Ccb.

Yeah.

But if, yeah.

I, I, I've thought about the same CBL too.

It's just, it's hard to get and it's a whole business structure change and

I don't know, I kind of feel like, you know, I was talking to

Ky from Ness Build Car about it.

I, I actually feel like the, the commercial space needs more builders like

us.

Yeah.

I know.

I, I'd also want to go into partnership with a business plant partner if

I was gonna go down that road too.

I feel.

Yeah.

Okay.

Whole different, whole different, because we dunno what we dunno

in the commercial sector.

We know residential, you're dealing with different things.

When you hear commercial,

in my mind, I'm thinking childcare centers, NDIS mm-hmm.

Based projects.

I feel like that would be a, um, I, I reckon I get a lot

of fulfillment out of Yeah.

Yeah.

Doing those kinds of projects.

Because you, you're delivering buildings that are healthy, comfortable, low energy

for people who I would say are a bit more vulnerable to Well, I was gonna say,

these are the homes that should, places that should be built the way we Yeah.

Schools.

But I

guess the, the reason I brought it up is that, that as a building

surveyor, you have this discretion of, of what is right and well, what

you feel is right, or what I believe.

Yeah.

What you believe.

My interpretation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yep.

Um, performance solutions.

Mm-hmm.

I feel like we need 'em for everything these days.

Do you wanna explain, do you wanna clarify why we need them?

Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions around

potential performance solutions.

Like my big one is the mechanical ventilation now needs performance

solution because the idiots who wrote the code can't understand that a meant

mechanical ventilation system is running 24 7 and they're all worried about

the flow rate at the highest rate.

Where the thing is, these run, they're running over 24 hour period.

There's more, more should be

distracted.

I'm pretty confident that the code will catch up to that pretty quickly as in the

2025 I was reading the draft.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

This is, this is, I have a lot of issues with.

And I understand architects are going to push further with

their designs, which is great.

They've gotta challenge people and what's possible.

But I feel like every little thing needs a performance solution these days.

And I understand why, because it's, it's putting the pressure on you guys

to sign off on something where the code says, Hey, well you can't do that.

You ask for a performance solution.

And then as it goes back to your comment before, oh, I, but my other building

surveyor signed off on that last time.

Well, that's his discretion.

Yeah, I know.

That's, and that's the thing.

Well, that's what I get too.

You know, why do I have to get a performance solution?

My previous building survey, never been asked for it before.

Um, go back to them then I can't comment.

Yeah.

On the design.

I haven't seen the design, not my, not my, uh,

building permit.

Yeah.

Appointment.

So you, you, so, so Matt and I live in a bubble, right?

We live in this, this, let's call it high performance, healthier home,

better building kind of bubble where everyone that we're dealing with,

talking with, seeing on social media.

Are building better

or trying to,

or trying to, you obviously see a much broader snapshot of the industry.

Do you think we're getting better at building, um,

having

been in the industry for a long time, do you think we're getting better?

Great question.

I, I'd probably say that in general, builders that are really on the ball

and really take pride in their work, um, I think the amount of finishes

and et cetera are, are raising.

Um, is the building industry getting any better?

I'd probably say not particularly.

And the reason being is because there are such a shortage of trades that anyone

is putting on a null bag to become a carpenter and say they're a carpenter.

Anyone's doing plastering.

You go into Bunnings, buy your now gun, and Woohoo.

I'm a carpenter.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And you know, I really wanted you to say that you, that it,

that it was getting better.

Like I really wanted to believe.

I know.

Your glass half full moving.

I really wanted to believe that it was.

I

I'm just, I I believe it's just, it's still stagnant on a straight line.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Again, we are

in our bubble, man.

How?

How?

'cause it's like anything.

Yeah.

Good job.

Not so good.

Good job.

Not so good.

I don't

You know what I mean?

And I don't know if you're gonna be able to answer this,

but how, how can we get better?

Where, where's the problem?

I

think that before COVID came in, all the subcontractors were going

to be registered practitioners.

Yeah.

The, I've read this last night through the, um, the BPC or back, the bba back

then and all, and I think the Carpenters were the first ones that were booked in.

Yeah.

I was.

And then all of a sudden COVID hit and, and we came outta COVID and.

I don't know.

Got put on the back burner.

Yes.

You

know, because you gotta understand that you go to a job, a tra goes to

a job and he does his job, he gets paid and he moves on to the next job.

And if something actually has occurred, which, you know, it's

it's

just the builder or the building surveyor gets, um, obviously dragged

into whatever, you know, issues occur.

Whereas the trader just moves on to the next one and he actually did the work.

So here's the data.

There's no liability.

So here's the data on this.

So in late 2018, the Victorian government made amendments to the Building Act

to introduce a new registration and licensing scheme for tradespeople.

Okay?

It's then gone on to say that as of 2022, the Victorian State election,

there was a caretaker period.

They've actually done every little thing.

They've gone through, the legislation development and improvements.

They're now just waiting on to be passed by Victorian Parliament.

So just sitting there.

And it's been, this is from 2018, so the full, the full bills is literally here.

I'm literally looking at it.

So, so, so I guess here's my question then.

Do you think licensing of, and, and let's just be clear, we,

we operate in Victoria mm-hmm.

In New South Wales, in Queensland.

I'm assuming other states too.

It's different.

Carbon has

need to be licensed.

Nah, Queensland and New South Wales.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it solves seriously like less big common sense here.

Licensing solves so many issues in our industry.

I also think that if you wanna have an apprentice or you wanna hire carpenters

under your business, you should have to be licensed in that trade.

Because what we speak about is that you have people learning from people who are

licensed, not from Tom, Dick and Harry.

Yeah.

I think the, and we need to spit out, we've got a skill shortage.

The more we train people incorrectly, we are not fixing the gap.

We're not bridging the gap with these, these trades people because

they just learning from crap.

We need to have them learning from, they need to be spitting

out quality, not quantity.

Yeah.

And then we can get better as a, as a wider industry.

And it shouldn't be just limited to carpenters, concreters, and Waterproofers

should be on that number one and two list.

Yeah.

Plasters plus boilers every tray.

Yeah, it, it's got here.

So implementation stage one, carpentry, stage two.

Brick laying and block are laying waterproofing, wall and floor tiling,

concretes, painters and decorators, insulation work, plasterers, painters, and

decorators is a bit of an interesting one.

Then it's solid plasterers.

Then roof tiling, Landscaping demolition work is in stage three, excavator and

earthworks and it's floor finisher, trades involved in swing pool, spas, minor

work, and then it's scaffolding, rigging still fixer, dogger crane operator.

It's five, five stages.

I, I mean, I'm, I'm just like the, my, my brain's going two ways here.

One, I think it's great to, to make people accountable to the work they're doing.

But the other thing is, are these people then gonna say, well, I'm

licensed how I'm gonna charge more?

That's

fine.

Is it, it weeds, it weeds out the crap, but what, but at the

end of the day, we charge more.

We got insurance.

So when something goes wrong with you, you, if your concrete

side fails, who do you go to?

You go to Dave.

You can't, you can't go to your concrete and hold them responsible whatsoever.

Yeah.

We we're, we're sitting here talking about like the building, like building not being

accessible because it's so expensive.

Is this gonna make it more expensive?

It will, because the reason being is the government wants

to build so many houses a year.

Yeah.

That's why they've held off on this.

Build 'em.

Yeah.

But again, okay, so then you build

crap, you've gotta fix you

fast, you gotta fix, I'm not asking to solve the problem, but like, what

are, what are some of the things that we could do to, to get better?

Does

it start at the TAs?

Does it start with, you know, organizations like SBA or, or something

like that where you're trying to

just

just bypass, like the current way of doing things?

Yeah.

Look, I suppose if, if you're really thinking about it, um,

quality control, but that'll slow the job down so much, won't it?

Yeah.

I just think it's simple.

You'd license trade and you have more inspections.

And I would've sat here arguing about your point about waterproofing

in a building survey should do it.

But I totally agree.

It needs to be someone independent.

I, I, I think we can't also just default to putting all the pressure

back on the builder, the building survey to sign off on everything.

Mm-hmm.

I think with waterproofing, let's say that a building surveyor has to sign off,

our

indemnity insurance will get threefold.

Yeah.

I, and sorry,

is, and that's gonna have to be passed on to the Yeah.

I mean I think this, this last two minutes of conversation actually

shows what's wrong with the industry and I respect there's no answer, but

we kind of, I don't think there's an answer either, but I think all the

things that we've just thrown out is just gonna make things more expensive.

So I started in a

conversation.

About insurance with someone with the com, with the Victorian government, the start

of the year, they were more worried about what number we should have our contract

price at before you need a contract.

I'm like, guys, we're talking about insurance here.

Mm-hmm.

Not minimum contract works.

Mm-hmm.

Like you, you're missing the point here.

There's only two, um, insurance companies that actually, um,

underwriters

that actually, um, do building surveyors.

Really?

In, in the world.

In the world.

Yes.

It's the same as a, it is the same as insurance for building,

for domestic building insurance.

It's underwritten by the government because no one has

been able to make a profitable,

they just keep bailing out

because

who, so that's gonna keep

happening soon.

It'll be one, and then well think, I think

there's only one.

I think this is the vmi.

Yeah.

So the VI, it used to be A-V-M-I-A and there was the other one.

The, the, the new the new, but, but building act.

About building, yeah.

But now the building Act, there's only now one they've removed the, um, there was two

that you could get, you could get your.

VMIA insurance.

And what was the other option you could've got?

I can't remember the name of

it.

There was another one that, that's an

asset protect or something like that.

Yeah.

As assets.

As assets.

Yeah.

Sure.

Can't

use that anymore.

The new building code, uh, the new bill that's been passed essentially

from my understanding, and I think you're right, we'll get Gary from

CCM to come in and talk about.

He's really keen 'cause he wants to explain this issue here.

'cause this, the new code is changing a lot of things.

he'd be a builder

or a building surveyor.

Um, now I wanna do a bit of a three.

It's easier

than being on a building site mate.

Looking after 200 kids.

Well talk about kids.

This is really interesting.

Now, so you mentioned at the start that your dad, you work with your dad.

Mm-hmm.

Must be pretty cool and special to be able to work off him.

And you said he was a bit hard at you at at times.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Now your two kids work for you.

Are you as hard on them as your dad was on you?

Uh,

It is

different.

It's a different industry, you know, 'cause I did car.

But it's kind of, it's different.

It kind of relate.

So, 'cause I feel like you've gotta, you've gotta hold your own as a tra

on site, I reckon as a building.

So you've gotta hold your own even more.

Uh, I think I agree with you.

I think it's different.

It's different.

I think it's different.

I've, I've, we're pretty close knit.

Oh, I know you are.

So, you know, we all get along.

Otherwise we wouldn't have, wouldn't have lasted this long.

Yeah.

So we've been going, so Andrew and I started the business

in, uh, 2013, I think it was.

So 12 years.

Yeah.

And then Matt, come on after he finished his, um, schooling

and did advanced diploma,

Um,

then Rachel, she came back from overseas and then she started.

So did you try and talk them out of it?

Think, I think there's also a generational thing that you, that you

would've experienced with your dad too.

So there's,

Your,

your,

your,

your dad's a one or two generations back from where we are right now.

So I feel like there is.

Like, I've beared witness to a father and son on site.

So someone my age and his dad and, well, Beth and her

dad.

Yeah.

But I'm saying that, that the experience I had was very typical of that time.

Okay.

Lots of yelling.

Yeah.

Okay.

Drinking after work, smoking on site, like all of that kind of stuff.

Whereas I feel like now that it's different, it's a lot.

We're, we're, we're operating in a different environment.

Just

again, we're in the bubble.

I find 'em really awesome to deal with your two kids.

Can you remember the first time they called you out on something

and proved you wrong after you guys had a bit of a No, I'm right.

You are right.

I'm right.

Because Is there something that you're like, ah, I think it might been Rachel,

actually, I think Rachel, um, picked up on something that, that Matt and

I were talking about and um, and she put it in I, and I said, oh no, maybe

I. Because of this, this, and this.

But no, she proved, proved this wrong.

So yeah.

Was that like the moment, like, oh, like I, I, I, did you feel like,

oh, I'm getting old, or is it like, nah, like that's, that's awesome.

Well, it was good because that was her interpretation.

Yeah.

And she was correct with that interpretation.

And Matt and I had an interpretation and we were not correct.

And

so Matt's now licensed to come out and do inspections 'cause

we've had him a fair bit on site.

Yeah.

He's register a building today now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and she's going for that now too, Rachel?

She will, yeah.

Uh, hopefully

at the end of the year.

And did you, and is is, sorry.

Is there a difference between a, the inspectors that you contract out

to look over work and what you do?

Is there, is there different classes of Yeah.

Registrations we have,

um.

Inspector Unlimited.

Yep.

Out on doing some their inspection and limited.

Yep.

So they're limited to uh, domestic dwellings.

No more than 500 square meters, no more than two stories.

So, so there's so, so there's a difference between a building

inspector and a building surveyor.

Oh yeah.

Okay.

So that different registration,

different registrations.

Okay.

Cool.

So I'm a,

I'm A BSL.

Yep.

So it's building fair limited.

So I'm limited to maximum 2000 square meters and three stories.

Yeah.

Uh, any class.

Yep.

And As and as A BSL you can also be a building inspector.

Well, it automatically is building survey is a building inspector.

Yeah.

It's like US was our DBU U We can be carpenters.

Yeah.

So, so you're bs So if I go out and do an inspection, when I plop it in our,

our, um, building surveying program for the inspection, it'll say you, BSL.

Yeah.

Me doing it.

Yeah.

Okay.

And Matt is BSL.

He's BSU.

So Unlimit.

But he's

He's a real, he's a real boss.

He's still limited.

So he's unlimited domestic dwellings.

Yeah.

So any size.

But he's the same limitation as me for commercial, which is 2000

square meters and three stories.

Any class,

how can that change?

And

you have a look, you have a look at, at that size and that's perfect.

Yeah.

So you're not going into the bigger stuff.

So effectively with commercial, over 2000 square meters, a building would need a

hydrogen booster and everything like that.

Yeah.

So you don't have to worry about report sense.

Yeah.

You know, so through, well fire brigade on some occasions for bigger buildings.

Um, and yeah, so, so that's that.

And that's plenty.

That's absolutely plenty.

Why would you want to go and, well then you, you've gotta specialize

in something and you obviously specialize mainly in that residential.

I think you do a bit of swing pools as well, don't you?

Yeah.

Swimming pools, retaining walls, um, you know, deck verandas, the whole thing.

You know, dwellings units.

Yeah.

Uh, factories.

Uh, school and schools.

Um, they require a bit.

Commercial swimming pools.

Do they require a bit more work when you're doing those, like

big commercial swimming pools?

Like is that just a lot more of you on site?

Uh, anything

commercial takes a lot more to assess.

Yeah.

Okay.

So it takes a lot more time to assess.

And are you doing more on site inspections at that point?

Constantly just checking over things, or is engineer signing off on it?

I'm,

I'm not trying to do as many inspections because we are just absolutely.

Since the start of the year, this is the busiest we've ever been.

Right.

And it hasn't slowed down at all,

what kind of split do you have of, of resi versus commercial projects?

Um.

Commercial projects are kind of slowed down.

Yeah.

Whereas the domestic's really taken off.

So, I don't know, maybe 70,

70

domestic I we'll include.

So it's probably 80 20.

Yep.

Yep.

And that's interesting that, that you are saying that you, you've never been busier.

Because I feel that Jim, more broadly speaking in the

industry, it's slowed down.

He's probably gonna be the last to see it though.

Oh yeah.

Okay.

I will be the last to see it, but I'm still speaking to, um, designers,

architects, and they're saying that Oh, just so busy engineers.

They're saying they're flat out.

Yeah.

But I do have some that's saying they're gone quiet.

So.

Yeah.

So what stage should we get

a building surveyor involved in a project?

Well, we're not allowed to be involved in the design.

It

It should be already done.

Okay.

But in saying that, we obviously, when we get an application form, yeah.

You know.

Fees are paid, we'll start doing assessment and then we'll say, right.

Um, you know, missing this.

Yeah.

Okay.

This, this, this, this, this.

Yeah.

Because we, and we can have general conversations.

Yeah.

But we are not allowed to be involved into the design because

we, we like, I mean, I don't know if you remember Dan, from our office,

we, we like to make sure that there's no setback issues and our report,

we wanna know all of the, that stuff really early on in the process.

Yeah, that's right.

So we can manage for that time at the other end.

That, that's all I go.

A lot of councils, they want the building surveyor to provide a

letter for the non-compliances.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I reckon So that's, that's I reckon is a great idea.

That's what we are looking for in that stage.

Yeah.

But to provide that letter, you have to be appointed.

So you can still be appointed as the RBS and do a part five assessment.