In November 2020, amid a pandemic and national racial reckoning, two congregations in Des Moines made a bold decision to merge. Hope Des Moines, a primarily white Lutheran church, and Elim Christian Fellowship, a historically Black church, became Hope+Elim. This wasn't about saving declining attendance or finding quick institutional fixes. It was about two pastors who had built a friendship over years of sharing pulpits and dreaming together, and who believed God was calling them to witness to church unity in their city.

Pastor Brian Brown joins the conversation to share what building church unity actually looks like in real time. From blending worship styles to tackling hard conversations about race with grace, from hosting community meals to creating ministry partnerships that serve their neighborhood, Hope+Elim is learning that proximity doesn't equal community. Real church unity requires vulnerability, resilience, and the willingness to create something new together. If you're wondering where to start in building bridges across racial and cultural divides, Brian's wisdom offers both practical guidance and hope for the journey.

We need more coming together across denominational lines. We need more people trusting what God has said versus what the world says. We need more of the demonstration and a manifestation of the power of God to work across racial lines, political lines. And even now, politically and racially, they're still challenged, but we're here, we're doing this together, and we're growing together. And I think that's what the kingdom should look like.

everyone, welcome to the Pivot Podcast, where we explore how the Church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Dwight Zscheile

and I'm Terri Elton. And today we're delighted to welcome Pastor Brian Brown from Hope Elim Church in Des Moines, Iowa. In November, 2020, in the midst of a pandemic and national reckoning with racial injustice, two congregations made a bold decision. Hope, Des Moines, a primarily white Lutheran congregation, and Elim Christian Fellowship, a historically black church.

chose to intentionally merge and become Hope-Elim. This wasn't about one church rescuing another from decline or about finding a quick fix to institutional challenges. Instead, it was about both congregations who had been listening deeply to what God was calling them to do. And then they became a living witness to unity and reconciliation in their city. Their story offers hope and practical wisdom.

for any congregation wondering what faithful innovation looks like in our time. Brian, it's great to have you here, welcome.

Thank you, Terri It is an absolute pleasure to join you and I look forward to our conversation.

So Brian, tell us a bit about the history of Elim Christian Fellowship in Des Moines. What was the congregation's story before the merger and then what was God already doing in that community over the years?

Sure. ⁓ Elim Christian Fellowship was a multicultural Bible-based church, primarily black, with roots from African Methodist Episcopal, the AAME Church. It was a non-denominational church in that Pastor Michael Hearst, while he came through the AAME denomination, it was a planted church, one that he felt led to ⁓ plant after the death of his mother.

He has been very instrumental in the entire relationship with Hope because he was really good friends with Mike Housholder. Their path and their journey had led them to a place of friendship and in that friendship, like minds, but also knit at hearts. And it was their actual relationship that led to a vision.

And that vision came to fruition ⁓ some years later. so, Elim Christian Fellowship was ⁓ located just across the street from the capital of Iowa. So here, the more obviously is the capital, but the property of where ⁓ the capital and all its legislatures and policies are done, we were right across the street, almost in the ⁓ same parking lot area on the campus.

And it was just a strategic location, but one where it was much of what we talk about here. It was a lighthouse in the community doing great work. I saw some of the growth over the years and also some of the challenges as well.

So ⁓ in 2008, Hope ⁓ launched a Des Moines campus. What was happening in both congregations that made this merger kind of come together ⁓ in a movement of the spirit rather than like a strategic decision? You talked about the relationships and things, but can you say more about that?

I can. Part of my being in Des Moines has been grafted in. I'm originally from Louisiana. My wife is from Des Moines. And so it was in the year 2000 that we actually moved here from Columbia, Missouri, but moved here in 2000. My journey began with Elon back in 2005 and where I was able to connect with Pastor Hirsch.

They had multiple campuses and the friendship and the relationship between Michael Housholder and Michael Hearst continued to thrive. They would actually switch pulpits. There were times that at Elim, pastor Mike Housholder would come over and he would preach at Elim and it was a different experience for him, but he experienced the difference in the cultural and the worship experience and Michael Hearst.

would go to West Des Moines, the main campus, and he would preach there. And both were overjoyed and was well received by kind of good members. And so as we sat down at a table, which I was a part of while I was at Elim thinking and talking about it, reading through the vision of one church, it wasn't, let's just do something to see how it goes. It was vision, it was intentional, it was biblical.

coming together to represent the body of Christ. And we actually thought at Elim that it might be in a different location. We were looking at a location that was called the Grubb. It was just the name of the YMCA that was in the urban core. And it was just the name, the last name of the family who had made major contributions was Grubb. But it was ⁓ in the urban core where a lot of needs were and a lot of needs are. And there was a vision there.

It was here in this property, but with the same vision. And with the layers, we have five floors. And as we talk about it going forward, I'll share some of the community partners and building partners that allow for us to really serve this community very well.

Well, let's dig in a little bit more about the context, the specific neighborhood that you're located in now and in a bit about the history of that building, which is a, it's a very striking building. It's got an amazing history and talk a bit about how that both the neighborhood space and then the building itself as a kind of legacy structure have shaped the ministry you do there.

Certainly. This building was originally part of Drake University. It has a legacy of its own. There's been so much history here. Part of what we've learned in being here is that in Dr. Martin Luther King spoke on the stage where we actually preach from today. And he was here as a part of his journey and he spoke about the beloved community. And so the building has been

⁓ I think in many ways an epicenter location where it has been historic, not only for the community here in the surrounding area, I think, but for the city of Des Moines. And so it's really important to note that it's directly across the street from Drake University. And Drake University being a private university is also though a big part of Des Moines. It is service Des Moines, not only from their pharmacy,

school but in their actuarial science but just in the way that it provides educational opportunities for everyone. My wife and I worked at Drake in athletics for 16 years and got a chance to really be a part of that culture and be part of the development and engagement of the community. So I walked by this church, I drove by this church for a decade and had not been inside. It was only one time I'd been inside.

And it was to do a volunteer cleanup day that they had. And so I actually live four houses down for 16 years. And so to be here in this location, to be at a stone's throw for where I used to live and raise three kids for 10 years, and then to be a directly as I look out of the window to see Drake University and to be here in the capacity is just as tremendous as godly and. ⁓

Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm here, I'm right where my feet are, I'm present, and I know it's part of what God's call has been.

So what are some of the ministries that are housed there or that are kind of, that building is really more than just a church building. It's a real kind of hive, if you will, of neighborhood ministry. Say more about ⁓ what's going on there.

Sure, sure. ⁓ So we are fortunate that there's capacity here. I always think, and Pastor Hurst will teach as well, that to really do ministry, you need at least three things. You need capacity, because ministry, you need room to do ministry, you need ability, and ⁓ the people, the opportunity for growth and resources. Being part of Lutheran Church of Hope, having the type of people

that we have here that God has sent here, allow us to do, I think, beautiful ministry. there's five floors. On the top floor of this building with great capacity is Genesis Youth Foundation. This is a ⁓ husband and a wife that came from Liberia that settled here, refugees, did a tremendous job in just how they were able to acclimate to not only Des Moines, but being here in the United States.

and have got great education, tremendous heart. So they use soccer in order to ⁓ be a draw as a platform to teach others from ⁓ foreign countries, from Liberia, from other places in Africa. And they do a tremendous job and it's shown to be a big part of the transition for many refugees and has been a great opportunity for us to be building partners. We also have an academy, Joshua Christian Academy. ⁓

from first through sixth grade. They're here, they're 60 plus students. That's a part of the Academy this year. There's four campuses. And so we're the West Campus for Joshua Christian Academy. These young people, love some, on Tuesdays I give a chapel, first Tuesdays. But they love to worship, have devotions every day. They're doing sign language or scripture. They're just so rich in what they're doing and how they're being led. So Joshua Christian Academy is here.

Fellowship of Christian Athletes on the third floor, that's their headquarters. And so they have individuals in all of our universities that is in the area, Drake and Grandview and others that are here. And they're in the high schools as well. And so they have that representation. We also have Ruth Harbor. Ruth Harbor for women or is mainly service women for protection for those who are in situations where they need a safe harbor.

and they are providing opportunities for young moms, but also people in transition. And so Ruth Harbor is another part of our building partners. We also have what's called Change Course. It's a transition recovery for individuals coming who have been incarcerated that they can take a course for over a year and then transition back in. They started here. And what I'm really proud of is that Change Course, while they started here, they were able to find their own building.

And then now they're more self-sufficient and they're providing opportunities as a self-reliant organization. Then lastly, obviously we have ⁓ tremendous ⁓ connectivity to the community. We have on Wednesday nights, what we call community night. We have a chef that is very talented, cooks tremendous meals and we have a combination of homeless and congregants and.

You know, people often just come and we fellowship and it's hundreds of people and everybody's welcome. You wouldn't know necessarily who was a member and who wasn't. It's beautiful. It's challenging at times, but it's worth the challenge that comes about. ⁓ Sometimes it's transactional. Sometimes it's really transformative. ⁓ We're okay with the transactional piece at times because at some point it becomes more communal.

It started in COVID where we were just giving food out. Then we said, okay, come inside. And if you want to come and leave, you can, but come in. And so it's been beautiful. A lot of work being done. And lastly, have AANASA. We have three different recovery programs for individuals who are addicted. We work with men's ministries, women ministries. There's just tremendous growth that we see.

And I think that part of it is we realize that we're not the only ones doing great work, but we're just so grateful that great work is being done here. So that's a part of what we're doing and certainly so much more.

So you were talking and I was, I had the chance to visit this summer and I was feeling the vibes of the, we saw some kids coming from soccer. rode the elevator with them. We walked around the school. You talked about that chapel and the sign and how you got to be a part of that with like, you just lit up. And then we got to actually have a meal before some of the programming. Two things I want to say and then have a question. One is,

If it seems like there's a lot going on, there's a lot going on. That's what's fun, right? There's a vibe. Each ministry or organization has its own sense of energy, but the collective energy is also felt in the building. And second, I got to have dinner ⁓ in this communal and we're sitting there and we started to kind of have this meeting kind of conversation. And I sat next to this guy who lives next door.

And for the next 25 minutes, we just did this great conversation. And the gift of Hope Elim in that community was just felt in that day. So I just want to a shout out to, it's messy in times and whatever, but the energy in the collective is really, really fun.

So I will say that I got a chance to observe the organic nature in which you, we went from a meeting of sorts while we were eating to being in community. And the conversation, while I wasn't ear hustling of what you were talking about, I knew that it was an organic conversation and that's where you needed to be having that dialogue. And then me and others, and I think that's what happens. It's like you end up in places and spaces where your feet take you.

and it's where you need to be. The conversations they're had and they're in the moment, but you can't script those. And so to experience it is different than me trying to explain it. So I'm just fortunate that you got a chance to least experience what I'm talking about. And there's so much more that I could talk about and we'll see where we go. But yeah, you had a question, I'm sorry to.

No, it ties exactly to what you're saying. We talked about when I was there, image of Hope Island being a lighthouse. And as you think about creating this kind of beloved community, this kind of organic ⁓ way that the gospel is shared, both in actual conversation about the gospel, but also in all of these other more organic ways

that are just kind of spirit led. Talk about that vision and that image of White House in the neighborhood and beyond.

So yeah, I'll do just that, but I want to recognize when I got here three years ago, the merger had already occurred a year and a half, almost two years. And John Anonson was the pastor here along with Michael Hirsch. Michael Hirsch was my pastor at Elim. When he retired and I joined with John Anonson, just a beautiful friendship and co-pastorship that was working.

And that is to this day, we are friends. He obviously accepted the call to one of our campus churches, but I just want to acknowledge that what God did in that moment, just the missing is that can be a part of a merger, two different cultures, black and white at a time that is a lot going on and God still provided peace, He still provided opportunity. So John and I had started this. And then once he ⁓ accepted the call at the Waukee campus,

⁓ Our main, we call it the mothership, the main campus in West Des Moines. ⁓ I feel like I am in alignment and I need to be in alignment with my pastor, Pastor Mike Housholder, because I'm one of the campus and he's our senior pastor. West Des Moines had a 10 for 10 goals and those 10 goals were stated, they were written. And so as I prayed about becoming the senior pastor at this campus and leading this campus, like who are we? How does it fit in alignment?

And so goes two, goes four and goes seven fits who we are. One of the things that's unique about the building, Dwight, if you remember, we have a bell tower and that bell tower almost looks like it's a steeple, but to me, I saw it, it reminded me of a lighthouse that is that kind of edifice that you can see from a lot of different angles. And when you see it, you can know where you are.

And so I thought that it fits in this community like a lighthouse. So when I thought about that, the very first year that Hope and Elon was merged, they invited me to be their guest speaker for their first year anniversary. So for many of them, that was their first time even for many of them, knowing who Brian Brown was, except for the Elon people. And so when I spoke, one of the things I spoke about was this was the lighthouse. Well, years later, here I am the pastor. I still feel it.

I'm looking at the 10 for 10 goals, goals two, four and seven. Goal two is to build bridges in this community around race, gender, identity, all those. So build bridges and bring people together. Goal four was to be a city changer, to make a difference in the city in which you're in. Goal seven was to be faith builders, to make disciples. To me, it was to be a lighthouse, two, four and seven, 24 seven. So that was the vision that I cast for us.

It is clarity to know this is everything is filtered through being a light, Matthew five, 14 through 15, and really the light of the world and being able to be a city that is, you know, can't be hit, that we are to be lit, you know, to be a lighthouse, but also that we build bridges, that we be transformative in our community. Yesterday, one of the many mission, local missions is we just

have a ministry where we ⁓ say to any of the homeless community, you just come, we'll make sure all your clothes, we'll wash your clothes. And we work with the local ⁓ laundromat and 20 people showed up. It was the most we've had just to have dignity, not to make them feel, but they want that. We want to provide it. It's beautiful. It's a couple of effortings, it's ours. But how can we not only feed the hungry on Wednesdays,

both naked and have, but how can we actually invite them into a space that they feel loved? So those are the types of things I could talk of alpha and what we're offering in terms of our classes. ⁓ Not only a come and see, but we want to be able to grow and make disciples. We want to do it from a multiplication, not just addition. So we're taking our time and trying to go deeper and not just wider. So a part of it is layered, but we see God all over it.

And we're not thinking we're better than anyone else, but this black, white, brown community of people from every walk of life that comes from a lot of different denominational backgrounds, but under this umbrella of Lutheran Church of Hope, where people can know and be assured that they're seen, I think is part of the call. And that's what I see it as a call.

So I'm curious about the cultural aspect of this with ⁓ you're about bridging and connecting, but what does worship look like? If you've got a mixed population, you had a historically black church, historically white church coming together. How did you discern all of that together?

What a journey. It's really good. I mean, it's a journey. ⁓ You just got to imagine all of the determinants of what it's going to look like. What about traditions? What about the sound? all of it is beautiful, Dwight. It really is. So we have ⁓ our worship leader, Jed, who came from Hope, Des Moines, who's white, who God has called to this. We have so many volunteers from different ⁓ ethnicities.

And our sound is unique to Hoh'ila. It's a, yeah, we have some gospel, we have some hymns, we have some contemporary Christian music. have the voice. You take a person who's soulful and come from a certain background of church and you give them a CCM, a Christian contemporary Christian music, and you put that same soul into that. It's a unique sound. You take a hymn, same way, you know, so all of it is just put together.

and there's a uniqueness to it. And everyone that is being drawn, there's more people that's drawn to hope, elem now, that it far surpasses how many who are at elem and how many who are at Des Moines. It's just hope, elem now. And part of it is knowing the mission and the vision, part of the sound, part, because I think to your question, worship is very important. It kind of sets the table to make you feel like, you know, I'm home. And then when you get the word, you know you're home. And then you get the experience.

and now in community. So I think that worship experience has value and we tap into it every chance we get. So one of the things we did, so we have a really a beautiful sound at our nine and 11 a.m. and we worked through what are the songs, what are we doing? And we have some song birds, they're calling where there are some beautiful voices, we have some strong voices. ⁓ We also created an experience called the overflow.

not taken away from a nine or 11, but the overflow is once a quarter. And it is strictly focused on gospel sound. Because we came into a merger where, you know, you can't just be all one or the other, but you don't want to miss part of the foundation. So I would say that our sound is more contemporary Christian on nine and 11 on Sundays, but has a flavor of the gospel. But the overflow, when it happens, that's more of the focus.

so that there's more of a bridging that's happening with both cultures as opposed to all one and not the other. So it's been well received and it's been fruitful. And one of the things that's coming that I'll share that we haven't done yet is a gospel choir that's gonna look like so many faces. Because we do host MLK, we host Juneteenth, and we're the only campus that does it, which is great because the others can come, we can celebrate together.

a community celebration. And so the community comes and we pack out the place and it's just a fun time and some political figures, some community figures. But in that space, one of the things that we also allow for is like this high school choir called Bridges to Harmony, gospel based of black and white kids. And they bring it and it's been very responsive of our community. So we know when we developed this gospel choir,

It's just going to take everything we're doing and go up even more. And so we're excited that that's coming as well.

I'll let you know when he's there. And everybody, we have room. It empowers, it provides opportunity ⁓ and energy, you know, so people can feel like there's a place to belong. One of the things we've instituted is what we call squads. So whether it's hospitality, whether it is prayer, whether it is, you know, a kitchen crew, everybody could find your squad. When you find your squad, that's how you have an opportunity to know that you belong.

I love that. So we talked a little bit when we were there about, getting to that place with music in worship didn't happen just like, ⁓ we all had it figured out the first time. It took a little bit. So I wanna ask a leadership question and E, that's an example. Maybe there's others you think about. As you were bringing together two different communities that not only

⁓ in religious landscapes don't always play together, but in the world there's all kinds of other diversities and differences. Help us think about what was your learning from a leadership standpoint on what you learned about coming together, about reconciliation, about getting to know the other, of actually, mean, Des Moines, who would think of Des Moines as a light of reconciliation around

cultural difference or racial tensions. And when I was there after this beautiful worship we had and this meal, you were actually going after racism and a amazing personal story that both Jodi and I were brought to tears. And it had a heart of Des Moines. You're getting at some topics in that that are for others, but there's a leadership lesson.

or two maybe that you can reflect on with us. Sure.

⁓ So just for context, when the merger actually happened, as I said, I was in Columbia, Missouri. So kudos to John and to Michael Hearst, John Aniston, Michael Hearst and Michael Housholder as the senior leader, working through some of the initial challenges, and I was aware of them. There were challenges of, for example, if I can just be transparent, Hope Des Moines,

actually access the building first. So can you imagine they get in, they get their office space, they kind of settle in, some of the fixtures and get, and then here comes Elim. And now you have this dynamic where you feel like you're coming into someone else's home. You have people who are kind of settled in. You're not having separate worship experiences. You're together, but yet you don't come together. And it's just the way the dynamics worked out. And so you got to work through that.

You got the cultural aspect, you got to figure out music. Some of that was messy and worked through before I got here. But if I can tell you, even this week, I had a member say, why can't we do more hymns? I somebody say, why can't we do more gospel? Why can't we do more? So it's still in real time being led and worked out and knowing that you're not going to please everyone and being able to listen well though. And so,

It was it, we hadn't sent on him in a while. So we added one this past week. It was beautiful. So listening and working through, just not for everybody, but just being led by the Holy Spirit. I will say too, and you bring up something, when you were here, like we have some intentionality around ⁓ Lighthouse 247. So we have a racial unity series that we'll do where we're intentional, not just about African-Americans, not just about slavery.

but we don't shy away from it either. And so we discuss some of the hard topics. We also educate. We don't want anyone feeling guilt or shame, but we don't run away from it. Cause there's some resiliency. And I taught as a pastor that we have to be resilient. Yes, we have maybe pain on one side, fear on the other because of stereotypes and pain because of history. But when you come together sometimes,

It's community that falls out that doesn't work. So we got to be resilient and come back. And I think those are the things where we're educating. And so we want to learn more about what was the racial climate in Des Moines? What was the history of some of the places where the urban core was displaced? It's not saying for the people who are here who are white or who may have had ancestors who might've been a part of something that you're the problem.

but we gotta not shy away from the problem of we're gonna really grow. Being in proximity doesn't allow for community. Community is really being vulnerable, being resilient, seeing each other, learning and giving grace. So I think part of that is talking about it. We just celebrated the Hispanic Heritage Month and we have members here and we were able to hear from individuals, not just from a black or white lens,

but from a Brown and other lands where things that I didn't know about culture. So I think we're, we have a series called, You Know? And it's just a question, did you know this? We have another one, we would, for Black History Month or MLK, is to be continued. So you don't want to just do it on February, whenever it Black History Month, but along the way. So ways in which we can continue ⁓ to set the table.

After ⁓ Alpha, we have a series, it's the third option, which is a book by, last name is McPherson. And when they first came, they did Tony Evans, Be the Bridge. They did ⁓ a couple other, the third option. They did a number of things to get at the conversations. And they were hard. There was some left, some came back.

And I'm still seeing some young people who didn't come, coming now, just coming back or just coming for the first time. It's just, it happens, but God is still providing for all who come.

Yeah, really, thanks for kind of getting us into your intentionality. I think that's what I was taken by is these are really hard. We're gonna name they're really hard. We're also gonna create a little bit of a, here's the environment that we are gonna need to hold if we're gonna talk about this together. And that's maybe enough for today. And then what's the next thing, right? ⁓

Even in the one that we talked about, it was a personal story and you're like, we're going to have Q &A. We're like, no, that's enough. And reading the community and, also I like the, did you know so much of us, so many of us don't know other people's or the experiences of history in a particular location. So for giving us some insight into some intentionality that you're doing.

and that it is messy and you can get, know, people are people, right?

It's beautiful though. I he'll ⁓ turn beauty from ashes, right? I think that's part of like Michelle Winfrey that you mentioned. Michelle, yesterday, she led a portion of Alpha and part of that is telling her story. And I learned something last night I never knew. And I think is having, I feel like our cupboard is so full of people who are gifted and talented, who ⁓

who can follow, but who can lead, who can step in, but also willing to step aside. And I think that's what makes it a beautiful opportunity to serve the community, because there is this come and see portion, and then you can feel the welcome from the moment you walk in, but there's a charge to lead and to go. And I think that's where, ⁓ as a lighthouse, we've got to make certain that we're doing both. And I think...

empowering people in their efforting to grow and making room for them. And I think that's something as a leader, I see my role is not to do everything, is to empower others in their growth, but also giving them the equipping that they need to step into those spaces.

So many pastors or church leaders might be listening to this and thinking, this sounds amazing and wonderful, but we can never do something like that in my context, right? And we know the American church is very divided, right, by culture and race and class and all these other things. So what would you say to a leader who's drawn to this kind of work of deep community and reconciliation and connection, but doesn't know where to start?

I would say right the very first question that we talked about today, whether it was a question, I think is where I began and it was relationship. It began from two leaders who had a relationship. And from there, there was a level of trust that those who were following was saying, let's trust God for it. There was vision. And I often say where there's vision, there's provision. And so there was vision. And I think in that space,

This is what I want. It can, it's going to take courage. It's going to take resilience, but it's going to take a level of, ⁓ a level of, ⁓

Probably the only word I can say for it is trust. You gotta step into it. It's gonna be, and sometimes when you do, you think, well, did I really hear from God? No, when you have resolve, when you know it's Him, that'll mean it's gonna be easy. In fact, when it's Him, it's gonna be some challenge, but He'll show Himself strong in the midst of it. So we need more coming together across the nominational lines. We need more people trusting what God has said versus what.

the world says. We need more of the demonstration and manifestation of the power of God to work across racial lines, political lines. And even now, politically and racially, they're still challenged, but we're here, we're doing this together, and we're growing together. And I think that's what the kingdom should look like. My heart bleeds sometimes on Sundays of how separated we are in our denominations.

in our ethnicities. I just don't know, even growing up in South Louisiana, if that pleases God that we go to our corners. And, you know, for Kingdom's sake, because it's going to be every nation, every tribe, every tongue. And I think that that begins now. And so I'm not saying we got it, but we're trying. And I think there's a way to trust God for the small things.

and then he has a way of magnifying them. And so start small, start with the conversation, start with showing up, start with being present, seeing God in the small and trusting Him to grow it.

Well, Brian, thank you. ⁓ I was looking forward to this conversation all week and it hasn't disappointed. ⁓ You're so articulate. You have such a passion for your work and you're so articulate about how this story has unfolded and have an eye of where it could go. And I think it's one story of two communities that came together trusting God.

believing unity and reconciliation for the sake of the gospel and the world, right? A neighborhood and the world is possible. So just thanks for your heart, your ministry, and for sharing a little bit of that here today.

absolute pledge of territory. if I could say before we, Michael and I'll shoulder in what God has done to work in and through the vision. ⁓ I give the glory to God, certainly, but also I'm appreciative of the courage that it took to say, no, we're going to do this. I mean, he could have been comfortable with this campuses and everything. So it takes a little bit to step out there. And then I just want to thank you all for caring enough to even have the conversation. So thank you.

Well, and to our audience, thank you for joining us on this episode of Pivot. To help spread the word about Pivot, please like and subscribe, ⁓ leave a review, or share Pivot with a friend. See you next week.