Last episode, we explored the biblical truth that no one naturally seeks after God. But if that's true, then what does Jesus mean when He says that the Father draws people to Himself?

In this episode, Jeff and George dive into one of the most important questions in theology and evangelism: How does God draw people? Is it through feelings, circumstances, conviction, Scripture, preaching, or something else entirely?

Together they explore what the Bible teaches about the Holy Spirit's work in awakening spiritual desire, convicting hearts, and leading people toward Christ. They also discuss whether God's drawing can be resisted and why believers should remain focused on sharing the gospel rather than getting lost in theological extremes.

If you've ever wondered how salvation begins, what God's drawing looks like in real life, or how this affects evangelism, this conversation is for you.

Topics Covered:

• What Jesus meant when He said the Father draws people

• The difference between God's "wooing" and forcing

• The role of the Holy Spirit in salvation

• How God speaks through Scripture, preaching, and believers

• Signs that God may be drawing someone

• Can people resist God's drawing?

• Why this matters for everyday evangelism

The harvest is still plenteous, and the laborers are still few. Join us as we seek to understand God's work and our responsibility in reaching people with the gospel.

we just finished a whole episode on nobody's really seeking after God.

2

That's not how we come out.

3

It's not it's not how we're bent.

4

But we end every episode by saying the harvest is plenteous, but the laborers are few.

5

What's in between that is this idea, this question of what does God's drawing people look

like?

6

Because Jesus said he's drawing people.

7

Want to know what that looks like, what that means.

8

what the implications are theologically for that.

9

if you're one of those thoughtful Christians who've thought a lot about this topic, you've

probably read some books or commentaries, theology books on it, this is for you.

10

You're going to get some biblical answers.

11

So here we go.

12

Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks Podcast, where we help Christians all over the world

become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.

13

My name is George Binoca and with me today is Jeff

14

Musgrave, the author and founder of the exchange.

15

We're diving into a deep topic, so grab your scuba gear and join us in God's word.

16

Jeff, how you doing?

17

Doing good.

18

Good to see you today.

19

Good to see you too, brother.

20

Um, you know, Jesus said, No one comes to me unless the Father draws him.

21

What does that mean?

22

Yeah, yeah.

23

I I I I think that some of these concepts are so br big that sometimes it gets a little

overwhelming.

24

but I maybe just to go back and review w where we ended up with the Bible says we're dead

and trespasses and sin a and that they're it so in other words, if a person is dead,

25

they're

26

They're not looking for anything.

27

I mean, so spiritually, I'm I'm without Jesus, I'm I'm dead.

28

I don't have that uh capacity to uh look for him.

29

I'm looking, I have an empty spot, there's a human part of me that's alive.

30

and so that's why that verse has to say in verse four, but God in his great love and in

his reach re

31

Rich mercy reaches out and woos us.

32

So I think there's a couple of things that he's actually doing.

33

Number one, he wants he he I like to use the word woo, that's drawing, uh and and then the

word crowd, uh, that's kind of pushing.

34

And I don't know, it God doesn't push us to to anything, but he does push us to

conclusions.

35

Does that make sense?

36

In other words, there are times in which I'm kind of walking contrary to God, and he just

boxes me into a corner in which I have to see what it is he wants me to look at.

37

And so that's why I I like to use the the words it's like one is is loving and beautiful

and and I've watched people come to Jesus that path and it's just it's just beautiful.

38

And then there are others that get crowded to Jesus, and that's really usually a little

ugly.

39

Uh, but

40

The outcome is the same.

41

Jesus gets them.

42

And here's here's what I I think is being done during that wooing or crowding process.

43

And number one, he wants them to see the real needs of their soul.

44

and and then he wants them to turn to the only one who can meet that soul need.

45

that it

46

When people are looking in all the wrong places, like we talked about last week, the

they're they're actually more lost.

47

They they get further and further and further away.

48

It's when they see the real soul need and recognize that that this is not a need that's

gonna be met in this world, on this plane, stuffing worldly physical.

49

concepts into my life, that's not going to meet it.

50

Or even finding the religions that have been created in this world, that's not going to

meet that need.

51

And therefore I have to turn to the only one that can meet the need.

52

And of course we know that is God.

53

Hm.

54

Yeah.

55

Um, I I think that's that's so important.

56

At our core we're spiritual beings.

57

So it makes total sense that all the things that actually answer the deep questions of our

soul are spiritual in nature.

58

that the solution is spiritual.

59

and and I you know, sometimes we wonder, is God is God actually doing that?

60

I mean, it didn't look like it to me physically.

61

And I think we just have to remember this is the same God who said, For God so loved the

world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have

62

everlasting life.

63

God Jesus not only cared about the needs of people's souls, but he literally came to

earth.

64

I you know, there's in my life.

65

There are people who tell me they care.

66

And then there are people who show up.

67

And Jesus showed up.

68

So we don't have to wonder whether or not He He is doing anything about this.

69

Jesus came to earth to experience our pain, to meet our need.

70

And, you know, the Bible tells us that God says, I have loved you with an everlasting

love.

71

Therefore, I have continued in my faithfulness to you.

72

I mean, that's what the love of God demands that he do.

73

The book of Hosea is a beautiful book.

74

I mean, Hosea's wife was an adulteress.

75

She had walked away from him.

76

She was looking for every place in the world that she could have her needs met besides her

husband.

77

And he came and literally purchased her.

78

out of the slave market that she had put herself in through her own sinfulness and and

loved her again.

79

That's the that's the picture of what God.

80

In fact, he says in at chapter 11 of that book, I led or literally drew them with cords of

kindness and with bands of love.

81

That's that's that's what God is doing

82

uh in I don't know, you talked last week about the Exchange Bible study.

83

There's a there's a section in there, and I thought it would behoove us to to just read

what that says.

84

As a person is studying this, even people who have told me at the beginning they're not

real sure there's really a God.

85

by the time we get this far, this is in lesson three, we've been studying what the Bible

says about God, it becomes more and more apparent.

86

That it's real.

87

And this it it comes in at after t introducing the concept of love, it says, even now God

is drawing you to himself in love.

88

Won't you open your heart?

89

God created all of us for an appetite for his love that cannot be satisfied with anything

but a intimate, loving relationship with him.

90

And I I think that's really where we get to is recognize that and

91

We're not even talking about how God does that yet.

92

We're just simply promising this is what the Bible tells us God is doing.

93

Love that.

94

so to dig down, let's I want to drill down for a second on what you're saying here.

95

Talk about God drawing somebody.

96

I mean, what are we actually talking about?

97

Like is it an emotion?

98

Is it a feeling?

99

Is it a thought?

100

Is it I mean what what what does that actually look like?

101

Yeah.

102

Uh when I saw this question, I thought, you know, we we often use physical pictures to

paint spiritual realities.

103

And so when we use the words, do you sense God speaking to you?

104

Um, we we really are not meaning that our did you hear an audible voice?

105

do you know there's a there's a

106

uh we use words that sometimes are a little bit uh obscure.

107

Uh and so I think even the word drawing or the word wooing, those can those can be a

little obscure.

108

Uh again, from the Exchange Bible studies.

109

So this is directly, this is at the end of every lesson.

110

we're encouraging people to just read the Bible and to let God talk to them.

111

And so, you know, having said those words, we have to

112

say, you know, God is real, he can do that.

113

He promises that he will convince you in your heart that certain things are true about

himself and about you.

114

And I I think last week we talked about, you know, what does that desire of the heart look

like?

115

And part of it becomes an an understanding and a real convincement.

116

So God starts telling us: here are the truths.

117

This is an internal work that he does.

118

He's not gonna speak to and I'm going back to quoting again.

119

He will not speak to you in an audible voice, but you will have a growing awareness of

what the Bible says is true.

120

And I've often said it this way it's almost like there's this voice in the back of your

head that says, That's true.

121

That's true, and you know it.

122

And and it sometimes people, and again from the book.

123

you might even feel a tugging or a squeezing of your heart.

124

That's that's the Lord.

125

That's how God talks to people.

126

So there's probably especially some unbelievers that would might hear that and think that

God's drawing is like mystical, magical, sudden, or does it happen through ordinary means?

127

I mean, does preaching play a part in this?

128

Church, scripture, conviction?

129

what are your thoughts on that?

130

Yeah.

131

I I I if it's interesting, just listening to the words we've said, we're we're still using

physical pictures of these spiritual realities.

132

And when we use the words, where have you seen the hand of God today?

133

I mean we I ask that question to people, you know, a lot.

134

Where where have you s where have you seen God working lately?

135

Um w we're not talking about a physical hand.

136

We're

137

We're not talking about I was uh driving by a field the other day and I saw God out there

working.

138

it at the same time, this is not spooky-ooky, and that's that's a that's a Jeff word.

139

it's interesting, God in First Kings 19 gave us a a a picture that that helps us to kind

of understand he caused his

140

voice, his speaking, a still small voice.

141

in in the passage, the prophet was running from a king who said, I'm gonna kill you.

142

And he runs and runs and runs and God confronts him.

143

I love when God arrests people.

144

He's arrested me before.

145

And it says that there was a mighty wind and

146

And then there was an earthquake, and then there was a fire, but in each one of those it

says, God was not in the wind, God was not in the earthquake, God was not in the fire.

147

And then it says that this still small voice, that's the King James, some of the modern

translations will say there was a gentle whisper or a soft whisper.

148

And the picture is of of a a breath.

149

And it's interesting.

150

Y you know this because you've studied the Greek word, both the Greek and the Hebrew, the

word f for wind or breath and the word for spirit is the same word.

151

Obviously in Hebrew it's one word in in Greek it's pneuma.

152

And so you can you have to translate pneuma based on the context that it's talking about

because sometimes it literally is talking about a breath or a wind.

153

And sometimes it's talking about the invisible work of the Holy Spirit.

154

And I think that it's important for us to kind of get into our minds.

155

Jesus used this picture in John 3 when he said, Nicodemus, you're you're a teacher of the

Bible.

156

And don't you know the work of the Holy Spirit?

157

He said, you know, we we all know there you can't see the wind, but you can see what the

wind does, same way with the Holy Spirit.

158

You you don't feel a physical, this is what the Holy Spirit did.

159

You don't see the Holy Spirit, and yet we can sense God working on our life.

160

And I maybe I should say it this way.

161

I I have sensed the Lord speaking to me through my own Bible reading.

162

that's why I start every single day with with coffee and God.

163

And I mean

164

I I the coffee so I can wake up and God because I can't do it without him.

165

But literally, I am every single day opening the word because I often sense God speaking

to me.

166

In fact, maybe I should say I don't think a day goes by.

167

I keep a journal and I I write down in my journal, here's what God has shown me about

himself today.

168

And I've you if you went down and s looked in my journal today, there's a page and a half.

169

of of the things that God touched my heart about today, just simply reading the word of

God.

170

And I knew it was that still small voice in the back of my mind, Jeff, this is it.

171

It's it's that quiet whisper.

172

It's not, it's not pushy.

173

It it is persistent.

174

It doesn't go away.

175

It's it's that work that God does quietly.

176

You know, I've I've sensed him working through preaching.

177

You asked specifically about that, where someone preached something

178

And there were just I could just feel my heart excited and and and alive because of that

truth that just resonated with my heart.

179

sometimes there's actually a conviction of something that I've done wrong and that I've

known I shouldn't have done.

180

And as someone's preaching, I I I I remember it.

181

It's like the God used the word in the preaching to speak to me in a specific way.

182

I've actually sensed it in conversations with other believers.

183

it may be that there's an unbeliever listening to this podcast.

184

And maybe the friend that's telling you about Jesus, when you talk to him, you can kind of

almost feel this tugging or squeezing inside of you.

185

It's like that voice in the back of your head saying, Wow, that's that's actually true.

186

And that's the way the Holy Spirit speaks.

187

So

188

Technically speaking, the role the Holy Spirit plays in awakening this spiritual desire

inside of us is besides what you've just said in that in that sense and that conviction,

189

is there another role that the Holy Spirit 'cause we usually see him as playing a big role

in all this.

190

I mean, Pentecost, Acts chapter two, he had a big role.

191

What's the role he plays today?

192

That's by the way, one of the things that I read in my Bible reading today is just

watching the Holy Spirit for the first time working not just around and on, but in and

193

through believers.

194

Just really, really exciting to be able to see what the Holy Spirit did and what was

accomplished through that.

195

But I think it's important for us to go back to when Jesus was.

196

First introducing the ministry of the Holy Spirit to his disciples.

197

And this is what he said I will not leave you as orphans.

198

I will come to you.

199

And when we're talking about the work of the Holy Spirit, this is not spooky ooky, kind of

ooh, stuff in the air.

200

Uh, this this is God with us today.

201

When when Jesus said, I will come to you, he literally was saying, I, in the third person

of the Trinity, am gonna come and live with you.

202

Colossians says it this way.

203

Starting kind of in the middle of a thought, to them God chose to make known how great

among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery.

204

And then he says, here's what the mystery is: Christ in you, the hope of glory.

205

And so I love that verse because it's it's helping us to recognize when people are seeking

God.

206

Really what it is is God making himself known to that person.

207

And he does that through believers with God in them, the hope of glory, and his word in

which he speaks to people and shows himself to them.

208

Hmm.

209

So sticky question.

210

Does God's drawing then force somebody against their will?

211

I mean, is it a drawing or is it a dragging and kicking and screaming?

212

Does it change what they desire?

213

Does it manipulate?

214

Yeah.

215

Well let me go back and answer another question because I and I'm on I'm not ignoring your

question and I'm not uh I'm I'm not going back.

216

I'm I'm answering it with this.

217

you ask a minute ago, is it natural or is it some mysterious event?

218

And my answer is yes.

219

It it it it is natural because God supernaturally

220

Uses natural events, natural conversations in our lives to work in our lives.

221

But that work is a gentle whisper.

222

It's a mysterious yearning.

223

It's a persistent inner voice.

224

And so the reason I went back and answered that question again is kind of bring us back

to.

225

how the Holy Spirit speaks.

226

And you know, I I mentioned it he he doesn't make me do something but he is persistent and

keeps pushing keeps keeps that keeps that pro process in front of me and so really to get

227

underneath of that question we have to look at it from God's side not just our side and

228

What is it that God wants?

229

I mean, He doesn't need followers.

230

What is it that God wants?

231

And the answer is God wants our hearts.

232

The greatest command is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart and our soul and

our mind.

233

I mean, that's what God wants.

234

God wants my heart.

235

He wants me to love him.

236

And he can't force anyone to love them.

237

So what he does is he changes our hearts so that we can love him.

238

And that's that's the beauty of redemption, is that literally redemption is God changing

my heart so that I love him from inside.

239

Uh this last week I had the privilege of preaching in our church.

240

And I preached from Hebrews chapter 10, where it talks about God.

241

At conversion, literally writing his laws on our heart, so that the things that we want

are the things that God wants.

242

And it it's not a force in which he's making us do it, but it is a transformation.

243

There it can't happen without that transformation.

244

There has to be a beautiful, glorious transformation.

245

So he woos and he speaks with that gentle whisper.

246

that mysterious yearning, that persistent internal voice.

247

And when a person says, Yes, God,

248

Then God comes and he just completely, and we call it new birth, we call it regeneration.

249

It's it's literally God says, I'm going to allow that old person to die, and I'm going to

give you a new life.

250

And this new life is now written with the laws of God and the desires of the Lord.

251

Hmm.

252

So and I'm not sure if I'm sure we can answer this biblically, but I've not actually done

a study like this in the Bible.

253

What are some signs that God may be drawing a person?

254

Could I mean is there anything we could see visibly that might lead us on to believe, hey,

God's probably drawing that guy over there?

255

Yeah.

256

Well, I I think that the real issue here is

257

When we see

258

People who are by nature hostile to God and rebellious against his law, beginning to show

an interest in God and trying to figure out how they could possibly get to the place where

259

they could do the things the Bible teaches.

260

and you've talked to people like this, you know, I I get it, but

261

Man, I I just don't know how I could ever be that way.

262

You know, and when a person is starting to say those things, it's like, that's the work of

God.

263

And I don't know how many times w I've looked at someone and thought to myself, God's

after him.

264

And it's because we look and we see unnatural desires coming out of a natural man.

265

He he's he's when a when a man

266

Is looking toward the possibility that the Bible might have answers for me.

267

That I I want to look into that book.

268

I want to figure out what it says.

269

So I actually think it this way.

270

When I ask my friend, would you do an exchange Bible study with me?

271

And he is at least curious enough to say, Yeah, I'll look at it.

272

I I just can't hardly help but think, hmm, I think God's after him.

273

Mm.

274

So can somebody resist that then?

275

I know this is a controversial quo I'm asking you a controversial question live on the

air, but can someone resist this drawing you're talking about?

276

Yeah.

277

Anytime I answer a question like this, I feel like the safest and best way for me to

answer it is not to tell you, well, here's what Jeff thinks, but to try to go and find

278

what does the word say?

279

I think it's interesting.

280

You listen to this is a saved man talking to unsaved people.

281

Stephen in his martyrdom.

282

Acts chapter seven says, You stiff necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you

always resist the Holy Spirit, as your fathers did, so do you.

283

And so we certainly hear of these.

284

Um it's interesting.

285

Jesus said it this way.

286

This is in Matthew chapter twelve, beginning with verse thirty-one.

287

Therefore, I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, people.

288

But the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

289

We tend to call this the an unpardonable sin.

290

Uh there is no unpardonable sin, but as a person rebels against that work of the Holy

Spirit.

291

So we've been talking about the the quiet.

292

persistent internal communication of God in a person's heart.

293

When someone s says and and literally speaks against the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is

working, it it says that will not be forgiven.

294

So you you cannot r say that's I'm I'm not I don't believe that's the Holy Spirit.

295

I'm not gonna listen to

296

the voice of God.

297

so I I I say that because these these are pictures in which clearly God is wooing, God is

speaking, and humans are resisting.

298

I'm I'm I uh there's all kinds of stuff going through my brain.

299

there are people

300

who would um quickly add that in his sovereignty god still accomplishes what he wants to

accomplish and i will not disagree with that cannot of course that's true but i i also

301

can't come up with a answer to a s a a honest question that you ask without pointing to

the scripture the bible also uses relational words um so

302

We're talking about forming a relationship with God and being distant and and separated

from God.

303

He uses these words.

304

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit.

305

Do not quench the Holy Spirit.

306

so you asked me a question and I have to answer the question.

307

It seems obvious that some do.

308

That seems obvious.

309

The here is the real issue.

310

the theological debate of um does God always get the man he goes for?

311

is is is God always going to win when he calls someone to himself?

312

And frankly, that's a theological debate that has been raging for hundreds of years.

313

And there's no way you and I, uh in our vast wisdom, are are gonna be able to answer that

question.

314

And so I think it's better for us to stick to the words of God, listen to the warnings of

God, not to resist, not to grieve, not to quench.

315

What I want to emphasize when I speak to humans, and so these are the people who are

listening to us today, and these are the people that those of you who are listening that

316

you'll be speaking to that are uh listening to.

317

The work of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God as you study the Bible together.

318

Isaiah chapter 55 says it this way in verse 6: Seek the Lord while he may be found.

319

Call on him while he is near to you.

320

So I when I hear God warn, don't resist, don't grieve, don't quench.

321

And I hear him say, If I am near,

322

And you are hearing my voice, you better run toward me.

323

Uh, those those are the words that I have to stay with.

324

I and I'm not gonna try to answer the age-old question uh, because I don't know that

that's the words that God uses to try to answer my question.

325

What God says is, seek me.

326

I'm near, I'm available.

327

Now you have to seek.

328

Don't quench, don't grieve.

329

Don't resist, seek.

330

Yeah, I think I wouldn't change a word.

331

One of the mistakes many have made is trying to explain what scripture only describes.

332

And we see that in the doctrine of the Holy Spirit and or sorry in the doctrine of the

Trinity and other doctrines as well.

333

but now it it does lead us to the next topic, which I'm guessing we can make the next

334

Part of this series, the next episode in this series, which is this is a big tension,

right?

335

People wrestle with it.

336

If God is drawing, where does human responsibility fit in all that?

337

And it's the stuff we're touching on right here.

338

You know, we're right at the border of it.

339

and I think we should dig into what does the Bible say about human responsibility?

340

Because it does.

341

you could make the mistake.

342

anybody could make, which is there's two ditches, one on each side of the road.

343

You could end up in either.

344

And regardless, you're gonna have a bad day.

345

I mean I feel like it's a bad day when you end up in a ditch

346

You know, I don't know if you ever thought about this, George, but with a mile of road,

there are two miles of ditches ditches.

347

I mean, there's a lot more ditches than there is smooth road.

348

That is great.

349

I'm gonna have to remember that.

350

so next time we'll answer the question, how can both be true?

351

And we'll do it from the scripture.

352

one of the things I'll just brag on Jeff for a second I love about him is he has the

humility to say, I don't know, what does the Bible say?

353

What does it not say?

354

Let's not put words in God's mouth.

355

Um but God

356

thing that every every mature believer must learn, and that is balance.

357

we we and and and Lord willing, we will speak to let let's look at the balance because

that's it's it's not I'm I'm gonna try to you know, somebody says this and someone says

358

this and I wanna get in the middle.

359

That's not it at all.

360

It's just, you know, what what does God say and where can I stand that's that's on

361

ground that God gave me.

362

And that's what we'll be looking at.

363

Amen.

364

Well, thank you guys for listening.

365

thank you for subscribing.

366

Thank you for sharing the podcast with your friends and families, with your pastor, your

church.

367

that's the kind of stuff that makes a big difference, the bottom line of the podcast.

368

this podcast is supported by our donors.

369

And um, if you'd like to give and make this possible, please go to exchangemessage.org

forward slash donate, and you could set up

370

Even a small donation of five or ten dollars a month goes a long way to underwriting the

expenses that come with this.

371

pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers.

372

That is still our

373

Mission has not changed.

374

after all this theological conversation, it's still the thing that Jesus said.

375

And so let's keep going.

376

Let's go in the harvest.

377

Let's find laborers.

378

Let's recruit more laborers, and let's see what God will do.

379

We love you guys.

380

We'll see you next week.