Shownotes
From Invisible to Influential: Mastering Brand Clarity with Sapna Pieroux
What makes a speaker visible, memorable, and trusted in a crowded marketplace?
In this episode of Professional Speaking, John Ball sits down with Sapna Pieroux, personal and business brand consultant, author, and speaker, to explore what brand clarity really means for speakers, experts, and business leaders who want to stand out for the right reasons.
They unpack the difference between brand and branding, why simply "being authentic" is often not enough, and how to think more intentionally about the way you show up without becoming fake or performative. Sapna shares her VISION framework, explains why your public persona needs curation, and offers practical advice on building trust, visibility, and consistency over time.
The conversation also covers reputation, styling, personal values, social media behaviour, networking, follower counts, and why real-world relationships still matter more than most people want to admit.
John closes the episode with an important reminder for content creators and speakers alike: your audience usually needs to hear your core message more than once, and repetition is not laziness. It is part of clarity.
In this episode
- What "brand clarity" actually means
- The difference between brand and branding
- Why speakers need to think about how they are seen
- How to curate your professional persona without becoming inauthentic
- Why trust depends on alignment between what you do, say, and show
- How to use aspirational brands without simply copying people
- Why consistency matters more than novelty for visibility
- What to do when you feel invisible online
- Why 100 ideal connections beat a million empty followers
- How comments, DMs, and meaningful interaction can increase visibility
- Why bookers should care about more than follower count
- The importance of showreels, testimonials, and real-life relationships
- Why your audience needs to hear your message more than once
Key ideas from the conversation
Brand is the whole experience.
Branding is only the visual expression of it. Your website, photos, positioning, communication, and behaviour all contribute to how people experience you.
Authenticity still needs intention.
You do not need to show every part of yourself to be genuine. Speakers need to curate the aspects of themselves that best serve the audience and the message.
Trust is built through alignment.
If what you say, what you do, and what people see do not match, trust erodes quickly.
You do not need to copy others, but you should study them.
Sapna recommends identifying aspirational brands and looking closely at how they show up, communicate, and build visibility.
Your message probably needs repeating.
Most speakers get bored with their message before their audience does. Repetition helps people understand, remember, and trust what you stand for.
Visibility is not just a digital game.
Networking, in-person relationships, and being in the right rooms still matter. Sometimes a real connection beats a polished post.
Memorable lines
- "Brand is the whole experience."
- "Branding is how we make it visually tangible."
- "We can't put our whole messy self out there."
- "People connect with people."
- "It's better if you are connected with a hundred of your ideal clients rather than a million empty followers and bots."
- "You are always more at risk of getting bored with your message before your audience does."
About Sapna Pieroux
Sapna Pieroux is a personal and business brand consultant, author, and speaker who helps entrepreneurs and business leaders clarify who they are, stand out in their industry, and grow their businesses. She is the author of Let's Get Visible and shares insights on branding, visibility, and business growth.
Resources and links
- Connect with Sapna Pieroux on LinkedIn
- Sapna's book: Let's Get Visible
- Sapna's platform: BrandVisions.ai
- Subscribe to John Ball's LinkedIn newsletter: Serious About Speaking
Listener takeaway
If your work deserves more attention than it is currently getting, the answer may not be to become louder, stranger, or more online. It may be to become clearer, more consistent, and more intentional in how you show up.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Show Introduction
01:17 Meet Sapna Pieroux
01:50 Brand Clarity Framework
03:42 Visualize Your Brand
06:06 Customer Vision Legacy
06:59 Brand Versus Branding
10:34 Curated Authentic Persona
14:02 Values And Trust Signals
15:10 Who You Associate With
17:16 Building Reputation Visibility
18:21 Do Say See Alignment
18:51 Consistency Builds Trust
19:51 Values And North Star
21:09 Study Aspirational Brands
22:00 Repeat The Message
22:50 Market Need Disconnect
24:31 Fab Brand Aha Moments
27:39 Start Small Engage Social
29:39 Beyond Follower Metrics
33:11 Role Models And Inspiration
35:35 Where To Connect Next
36:21 Closing Takeaway Repeat
Visit https://strategic-speaker.scoreapp.com to take the 2-minute Strategic Speaking Business Audit and find out what's blocking you from getting more bookings, re-bookings, referrals and bigger fees. There's a special surprise gift for everyone who completes the quiz.
Want to get coached for free on the show? Fill in the form https://forms.gle/mo4xYkEiCjqtz9yP6, and if we think your challenge could help others, we'll invite you on.
For speaking enquiries or to connect with me, you can email john@presentinfluence.com or find me on LinkedIn
You can find all our clips, episodes and more on the Present Influence YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@PresentInfluence
Thanks for listening. Rating the show 5* on Spotify helps their algo recommend the show, so please take a moment to follow the show and leave a rating.
Transcripts
Welcome to Professional Speaking.
2
:I'm John Ball.
3
:This is the show where we explore what
it really takes to become a speaker
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:people remember, recommend, and book.
5
:Not just someone who gives a good talk
and then disappears back into the noise.
6
:And that noise is part of the problem
because plenty of capable speakers are
7
:still struggling to be seen clearly.
8
:They may have the talent, the
ideas, and even the experience.
9
:But if the market is confused about
who they are, or what they stand for,
10
:they often remain less visible, and
less influential than they should be.
11
:That's why this episode matters.
12
:My guest is Sapna Pieroux, a personal
and business brand consultant, author,
13
:and speaker who helps entrepreneurs
and business leaders get genuine
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:brand clarity, stand out and grow.
15
:Together we unpack what brand actually
means, why branding is only one
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:part of the picture, how to think
about your public persona without
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:becoming performative, and what
speakers can do to build visibility
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:and trust in a crowded marketplace.
19
:So if you've ever felt like
your work deserves to travel
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:further than it currently does,
this conversation is for you.
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:Let's get started.
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:I am very happy to welcome to
my little virtual studio on the
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:internet here as Sapna Pieroux
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:Sapna Pieroux: Thank you very
much for having me, John.
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:John: it's a real delight to connect and,
and we, took a while to get connected, but
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:when we actually did, it was completely
worthwhile because the stuff that you
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:talk about and how you help people
is very, very relevant to my audience
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:because you're already helping people
with their branding, with being seen.
29
:Can you give us a bit of background,
what is it you actually do?
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:Who do you help?
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:Sapna Pieroux: So I am a personal
and business brand consultant,
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:author and speaker, and I help
entrepreneurs and business leaders
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:to get real brand clarity on who they
are, stand out in their industry and
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:supercharge their business growth.
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:John: oh yeah, that's what I need
supercharge a bit of my business
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:growth, thank you very much.
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:what are the things that we should be
really thinking about in order to do that?
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:how do we, start being able to be
seen and have some brand awareness or
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:some actual branding for our business?
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:Sapna Pieroux: So it's
funny you should ask that.
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:am I allowed to plug my book?
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:John: Oh, go ahead.
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:Sapna Pieroux: I've just done it anyway.
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:I just asked the question
and then did it anyway.
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:So let's get Visible is the book
that I wrote, I've sort 30 years
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:experience building brands.
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:Started off, in advertising, like in
marketing and advertising, working
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:for big brands, Salis Radio Group
and EMAP Advertising, et cetera.
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:And some of my clients were like
L'Oreal, Sony Erickson, Mercedes.
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:So I know a lot about brand.
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:Then post kids.
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:I started my own business from home
and started creating solopreneurs,
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:entrepreneurs, business owners.
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:2019 I wrote my book, which came out in
:
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:what it is I do and how I do it.
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:So I have a vision process
which I've created.
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:vision process is six steps
to building your brand.
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:And, and this works for, it was written
for a, from a business brand point of
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:view, but I've since adapted it and
it works for personal brand as well.
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:a broad brush, strokes, vision
stands for visualize in a brand
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:standout image, output, and nurture.
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:So the first three steps.
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:Are all strategic about getting
your strategy and getting your
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:ducks in a row, as you said.
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:VV for visualize is about
understanding your brand vision.
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:Where, how is it that you want to be seen?
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:What do you want to be known for?
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:I get my clients to do, a little
exercise, which I call the fab
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:exercise, five aspirational
brands, and to look at five brands.
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:Now, if you're, if you're thinking about
yourself as a speaker, then you look at
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:maybe other speakers, or other people
in, with a profile and you kind of go,
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:well, I'd like to be seen as like them.
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:No, it's not about copying them,
it's about being influenced.
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:And that's why I I five, you're not
just like blatantly copying one of
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:them, but you can be influenced and from
others that are ahead of us in the, so.
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:Have a look at them and kind of
go, well, what are they doing
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:to build their personal brand?
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:Let's learn from them.
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:How are they showing up?
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:What's their messaging?
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:How do they, what are they
doing it through video?
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:Are they doing it through writing?
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:Are they doing it through
podcast appearances?
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:What's their, what's their method of
actually getting their message out there?
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:we look at five of those and,
and it's about creating a recipe
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:that works for that individual
and what you want to achieve.
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:we kind of get that all together and go,
well, okay, if you wanna be seen in this
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:certain way, then maybe you should be,
if they're putting out video once a week
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:or, showing up on Instagram, or maybe you
need to build some of that into your plan.
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:So that, that's visualize is,
is like that, that the big.
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:Brand aspiration.
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:Then we look at the company vision,
where you are now in your company.
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:could be the company of one or your, your
actual company, and where do you want to
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:be in the next three to five years time?
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:because any brand that we build has to
work for you, at least for the next three
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:to five years time, so that you're not
having to, change lanes or rebrand or,
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:you, you've gotta have that consistency
so people can get to know who you
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:are, and what, what is you stand for.
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:Obviously your business will evolve and
your brand should be able to move with
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:it, but it's good to have an intention
as to where you're going in order to
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:build that brand to help you support you.
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:John: Yeah.
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:I can fully, fully
appreciate those things.
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:I think if we don't have, a path laid
out for ourselves, we don't have any
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:idea which direction we want to point
ourselves in, how on earth are we
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:gonna know what we're gonna get to?
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:It's undoubtedly it changes
along the way, right?
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:I mean, it's Yeah,
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:Sapna Pieroux: yeah,
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:John: yeah, yeah.
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:Life changes, right?
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:Like yeah.
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:But it's like, put yourself in this
direction and let's see where you end up.
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:Yeah.
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:Sapna Pieroux: And let's go.
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:Yeah.
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:Because it has to be, if I, especially
if I'm creating a brand, because
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:I, I not, I don't do the strategy.
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:I also design, we kind of need to
know, not just where you're going,
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:but also the, the third part of
the visualized, process is, or the
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:visualized step is your customer vision.
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:So it's like, who are your ideal clients?
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:Where are they before they work with
you or before they hear your message?
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:And how do you want them to feel
as a result of, or how is their
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:life gonna change as a result of
working with you, hearing you speak,
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:reading your book, whatever it is.
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:So that's the, the third part of
visualize, and these are all the
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:big picture things, but also what
are they gonna be saying about you?
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:What's your reputation going to be?
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:What's your, and then let's
take that less fur further,
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:what's your legacy going to be?
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:How are you gonna be remembered?
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:And all of that comes in.
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:That's very big part of the vision
process, which is visualize,
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:John: it seems like a really big thing
to grasp, but grasp our heads around.
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:But I mean, it is good that we're
breaking it down into smaller, smaller
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:chunks here to work smaller chunks.
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:Yeah.
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:To work through it.
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:I wonder like for, for our listener,
that sometimes there's some
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:confusion around brand and branding.
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:Sapna Pieroux: mm.
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:John: Could, could you
just clarify that for us?
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:Like we're talking about brand
here rather than branding.
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:Sapna Pieroux: Yes.
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:branding is part of the vision process
as well, but that doesn't come until
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:step, just the, the fourth step.
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:So this is all about
getting brand clarity.
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:quickly, if I can just do the
I and the s that will, that
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:will help us on this as well.
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:So the I is literally about finding
and defining your brand values, your
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:brand personality, and your brand voice.
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:Now, as a speaker, the brand personality
and voice is gonna be very, very closely
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:aligned to you, yourself, obviously.
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:But it's a curated, it's about curating
who that, what that speaker persona
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:is, because we're all very different
people when we're with our partners,
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:with our children, with our parents,
with our friends down the pub.
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:not everybody has to see
all of that on stage.
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:So it's about curating the side of
you, the professional side of you and
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:persona of you that you are putting
out there in your brand communications.
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:We can't put our whole
messy self out there.
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:It's too confusing, and overwhelming.
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:And then s for stand out is how are
we gonna get you to stand out in your
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:industry from a personal brand point of
view that is, what awards met you when,
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:or, books that you read or podcasts that
you appear on, or what are the, the things
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:that people are gonna remember you for?
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:collect your claim to fames if you like.
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:but when I'm look working on a
business brand, it's also about how
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:is that brand going to stand out.
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:So we look at the branding
of other companies.
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:So the difference, to go back to your
question between brand and branding
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:is brand is the whole experience is
every single touch point of you and
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:your business is part of your brand.
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:The branding is how we
make it visually tangible.
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:John: Yeah.
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:Sapna Pieroux: So it's
the visual aspect of it.
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:if you are saying that you are
professional, and at the highest.
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:Point of your game, and then people
go on your website and it's a bit
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:dated and it takes ages to load up.
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:photography's four, four years out of
date, you've lost that hair or it's
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:a different color, and the logo's a
bit crap then that is not actually
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:putting across professional vibes.
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:So there's a disconnect between Yeah,
there's a, there's a Venn diagram in
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:my book, which is about do say, see
it's like everything you do, everything
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:you say and everything you see have
to align in order to build trust.
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:Yeah.
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:And if one of those is out of kilter,
then it, it actually just destroys trust.
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:John: Right.
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:Like, like your Tinder date with
a 10-year-old photo that shows
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:up looking completely different,
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:Sapna Pieroux: right?
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:Absolutely.
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:Right.
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:Absolutely.
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:you're not who you said you were.
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:John: misrepresentation.
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:Yeah.
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:Sapna Pieroux: Misrepresentation.
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:But it's the same as a speaker.
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:And I've kind of, I, I work with
stylists and, not just for myself
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:personally, but also with clients.
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:a stylist called Kay Korsh and
she talks about, yeah, she's.
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:She's been on.
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:Yeah.
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:Great.
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:I thought 'cause she is a stylist
for speakers, which is why I
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:mentioned her in particular.
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:the fact that if you look dated, people
will assume your ideas are dated as well.
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:If you want to be seen as forward
thinking in your, in your ideas and,
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:and being seen as a thought leader,
you can't be wearing dated, outfits or
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:things that just don't, don't, don't
give you that professional modern look.
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:And it's the same with your branding,
the visual representation of your
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:brand, visual touch point when you
go on your LinkedIn and on your
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:website and any brochures you give
out your business card, anything has
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:got to look professional as well.
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:John: Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:I sadly had to retire my bow
ties after speaking with Kay.
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:But yes, it's, it's a very,
it is a very important aspect.
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:lemme ask you this, you said something
that, that really hit from you because
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:this is something that I've said as
well and I've had pushback on, and maybe
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:you have as well, about having this
curated version of ourselves online.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:Because we hear so many people talking
about, you've gotta be authentic,
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:you've gotta be your real self.
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:You can't be true to who you are.
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:And, and then we're kind of saying,
well, you actually need to curate a bit.
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:We don't wanna put everything out there.
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:you need to hold some stuff
back, and you need to decide
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:how you want people to see you.
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:And some people really don't like that.
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:They think it's dishonest or, or that
you are creating, creating a character
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:rather than being true to who you are.
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:Now, I don't think, I don't think
that at all, but I wonder what
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:your perspective is on this.
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:Sapna Pieroux: I call BS on that.
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:people kind of go, oh, you're
gonna be your authentic self.
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:And it's funny 'cause I've just come off
another podcast recording and she was
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:like, you are really a authentic, I'm
apparently really authentic because when
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:you meet me in real post, in real life,
I'm pretty much as you'd see me net right
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:now, but, if you went into an office,
and I know most of the people that we,
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:that you, you deal with are entrepreneurs
and, and don't have to go into an office.
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:But certainly when you go into an office,
there's a certain way of behaving, which
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:is called a professional way of being.
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:Like you, you go in there and
you're, you are being professional.
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:And I think that's, that's all I mean
by a curated version of yourself is
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:that you remember who it is that you're
talking to and you use the appropriate
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:language and behaviors that is gonna
connect with that target audience.
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:Right?
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:Yeah.
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:not about, not not being authentic.
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:It's about, I'm a different
person when I'm with my children
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:than I am when I'm on stage.
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:And, and it's, we switch up, we,
we switch personas all the time.
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:When you're with your parents, you
are a completely different person
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:than when you're with your partner.
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:When you're with your
friends down the pub.
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:Like I said, it's just, we all do it.
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:as soon as we kind of call it out and
say, well, you have to curate your per,
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:people are gonna go, oh, never do that.
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:I always show up as my whole self.
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:If you did your whole self, there'd
be about five or six different
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:personas you'd be bringing to stage.
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:I guarantee if you brought all the
parts of you, you don't need all
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:the parts of you for every single.
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:It's like, think of yourself
as like a Swiss Army knife.
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:I've never used this analogy before,
but you're not gonna use all the
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:tools to do all, every single job.
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:So why would you do that with
your personality as well?
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:John: Yeah, they're all aspects of you,
but they don't all work at the same time.
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:Yeah, right.
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:Sapna Pieroux: Exactly.
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:John: That's a very
good, very good analogy.
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:Yeah.
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:I just made
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:Sapna Pieroux: it up, but I
think I'm gonna use it again.
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:John: I think you should.
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:I think it, it wears very well for
understanding that I, I might well borrow
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:it off you and, and, you are allowed if
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:Sapna Pieroux: you can
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:John: credit me at the amazing.
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:Exactly.
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:Absolutely.
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:'cause I, I really like that.
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:and I do think it's important.
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:You we're not the same person.
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:and I, when I go, I do
comedy stages and stuff.
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:When I go up on a comedy stage, I'm
not the same person as I'm delivering
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:a keynote on a delivering keynote.
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:I'm not the same person.
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:I'm on a coaching call.
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:You know, it's that different aspects.
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:Does it make who?
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:Sapna Pieroux: Q inauthentic.
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:It doesn't make you inauthentic,
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:John: right?
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:Yeah.
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:Different energies.
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:It's just d different appropriateness,
propriety and all that kind of stuff.
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:Yeah.
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:And, yeah, I think that that's,
this is what gets lost, gets
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:lost in the conversation.
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:It's still you being you, but I think
maybe it's sort of come from some of
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:the aspects of, and we know people.
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:Sapna Pieroux: yeah, I mean,
I think that's a great formula
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:if you are just getting started
and you dunno where to start.
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:It's that it for me, when you just
said that, I felt very restricted.
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:I was like, oh, just five.
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:And like, and I've got
to do it in this order.
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:about sharing a little
bit about who you are.
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:You can't not bring your personality
into your business because ultimately
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:people connect with people and you're
not gonna connect with someone who
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:doesn't show their personality.
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:If you're just there talking about
facts and figures and, just stats.
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:And I, I wanna know who
I'm gonna be working with.
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:Are you, are you a nice human?
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:Are you a nice, what are your values?
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:like, do you Right.
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:if you are, if you are like, a neo-Nazi,
I don't wanna be working with you.
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:Not that anybody's gonna be talking
about that on, on LinkedIn, but
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:John: same here.
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:Yes.
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:Sapna Pieroux: Right.
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:But there's like, there's aspects of
the person I wanna know that somebody is
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:inclusive and that wants a farer world.
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:And, that's, that's just one example.
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:I wanna know that they love animals
and that they, they're not like kicking
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:puppies down the street or anything.
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:I just wanna, I wanna know these
aspects of them because it gives
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:me a hint as to whether they're
a decent human being or not.
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:John: Mm-hmm.
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:Sapna Pieroux: Just simple as that.
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:So I, I like that.
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:John: Yeah.
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:Sapna Pieroux: Yeah.
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:John: Let me, let me ask you something,
'cause this is kind of, following
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:video may be a little tangent, bit
tangential to the conversation,
338
:but I think it might be, we love a
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:Sapna Pieroux: tangent.
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:We love a
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:John: tangent.
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:Oh, good, good.
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:I hope you'll like this one.
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:I, I have the opinion that.
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:Who you associate with
professionally does matter.
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:And this kind of relates to what we were
just saying, like if people, if there are
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:people who you are pr who maybe you don't
really trust professionally or you think
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:they're a bit dodgy or slimy or, super
salesy or anything like that, or they're
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:not, they don't hold the same values
that you do, but they may be considered
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:successful, they do really well.
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:And so you do events and
you associate with them.
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:I just can't, I think you can't help
but be, people will make the assumption
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:that you are like them because they
are part of your circle, even if it is
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:just a professional circle, even though
you could be completely different.
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:So I do have this thing of like, well,
who, for me, it's very important, like
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:who I connect with, who I work with, who
I work for, that they have these things
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:in, in that I, I feel comfortable with
that because if I don't, I'm gonna.
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:Pull away, I'm gonna distance
myself because I don't Yeah.
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:And I've done that many times.
360
:I don't want to associate, I, I don't
want people to associate me with them.
361
:Is that kind of a, where you
would go with that as well?
362
:Sapna Pieroux: absolutely.
363
:I mean, I think I, I only associate with
people that I, I like, if I find out,
364
:sometimes I get drawn into somebody's
web and, and you kind of like, they
365
:lure you in and then you realize, yeah.
366
:When they, when you're behind
the curtain that they're not
367
:actually a very nice person.
368
:they're a bit mercenary and their
motivation isn't quite where
369
:you'd want to align yourself.
370
:And then I just pull away.
371
:I don't, I don't, you don't have
to be, there's so many decent
372
:human beings on this planet.
373
:Ultimately it comes down to trust.
374
:And I don't personally feel that
I want to work with somebody
375
:that I have to doubt their trust.
376
:If it's like, do I give this person
my money or do I take money from
377
:this person and can I trust them?
378
:I'm not sure then that's,
that's a red flag for me.
379
:John: I think this relationship part
or being clear on who we're is super
380
:important in connecting with the people
who we are going to want to work with.
381
:But here's where my question comes now,
finally, How do we actually get who we
382
:are out in front of the people who we
want to be connecting with, so that, so
383
:that we can connect with them and they
can see, hey, I'm one of the good guys.
384
:Sapna Pieroux: Oh, wow.
385
:Okay.
386
:again, that comes down to
reputation, doesn't it?
387
:I mean, being a decent human being is one
of the, and aligning yourself with other
388
:decent human beings, I think, the company
you keep is a good indicator if you, if
389
:you are not that well known, make sure
that you, the people that you are aligning
390
:with are known, at least even if they're
not well known and known for delivering a
391
:or use, are known for coming up with the
goods, are known for being trustworthy.
392
:and make sure that you are as
well, because you don't wanna
393
:be tarnishing their reputation.
394
:these things aren't built overnight.
395
:Trust isn't an in
instantly doing the work.
396
:Like, when I talked about the aspirational
brands and looking at the people that you.
397
:That you follow and that you
wanna be more alike, but then
398
:you, it's not just about facade.
399
:You've actually gotta be it and do it.
400
:And again, back to do, say, see is
everything you do, everything you say
401
:and everything you see have to align.
402
:You can't say that you are professional
and trustworthy and then not be it,
403
:because that's where the disconnect is.
404
:you can't say you're professional and
then have a crappy looking brand and
405
:turn up, in rags for your, or like
torn stuff or stuff with food stains
406
:on and say that you are a professional.
407
:So all of these things align and you've
just got to do it consistently in
408
:order to build that trust over time.
409
:But, trust is built, especially
now we're bombarded with so many.
410
:I, I did some, I was looking
at some research the other day
411
:in terms of, how we stand out.
412
:We are, we scroll the height of Mount
Everest every 20 days on our phones.
413
:John: Wow.
414
:Sapna Pieroux: And so
that's a lot, isn't it?
415
:it takes people 40 days on average to get
to Basecamp and they've trained, but also
416
:our thumbs are doing better than that.
417
:but it's, it's more about the fact
that this, we've got so many messages
418
:bombarding us, that consistency.
419
:If you are a personal brand and you're
showing up with a consistency of message
420
:over and over again, that's where
people's gonna help people trust you
421
:because they know what you stand for,
knowing what you stand for, and not,
422
:changing your mind every Yes, we, our
thoughts can evolve and change a bit
423
:like we talked about our brand journey.
424
:And evolve over time.
425
:But to just suddenly go off on
a tangent and then not know when
426
:people dunno what you stand for,
they're not gonna build trust.
427
:So consistency and knowing who you are,
knowing what you want to achieve, knowing
428
:where you wanna go are all parts of being
able to know what's right and actually
429
:tuning in and understanding your values.
430
:this is the work that I do with
clients, helps 'em tune into their
431
:values and actually what they want.
432
:And then it helps them know,
is this, is this actually
433
:aligned with where I want to go?
434
:Is this gonna help me with my North
Star or is it gonna take me off off?
435
:should I really be doing this work If
it doesn't align with my values, that
436
:makes it a lot easier to, to say no to.
437
:John: It does, and, and in a world
where there's so much noise online and
438
:so many people trying to get attention
and be noticed, what are the things you
439
:think we can do to cut through so that
we're not gonna just feel like we're
440
:shouting into the void is sort of saying
you don't have to, necessarily always
441
:pay for the attention, but, but we can
actually be seen and being consistent
442
:because I think sometimes there's a
danger, for people of not getting enough
443
:progress in the time space that they
would hope to make progress and then
444
:think that they have to change everything.
445
:but it often, it is the case that they
just haven't stuck with it long enough or
446
:they haven't been doing the right things.
447
:So what, what would be your recommendation
for, like, where, where should they
448
:be aiming to make themselves visible?
449
:Sapna Pieroux: I would say it goes
back to that visualized thing.
450
:Look at what you wanna achieve first.
451
:It's gonna be a different answer
for every single individual.
452
:but if you look at your fab brands,
look at your five aspirational
453
:brands, the people that are out there
doing it, like you want to be seen.
454
:Show.
455
:See, look at what they're
doing and analyze it.
456
:Write it all down.
457
:Where are they showing up?
458
:How are they showing up?
459
:What are they doing?
460
:Are they producing video?
461
:Are they producing written content?
462
:Are they doing live speaking?
463
:try and map that out for five
individuals that you look up to and
464
:see what they're doing and learn from
that and put your own plan together.
465
:All work with me and I'll help you.
466
:But this is what I help people do
to kind of formulate like, okay,
467
:how are we gonna be showing it?
468
:And then that once you've got a
plan, rather than trying to do all
469
:the things you are doing, the, the,
the things that we've mapped out for
470
:you, you don't have to do all the
things when you've got clarity of
471
:your message as well, and clarity
as to what you want to be known for.
472
:All of this stuff boils down to
just doing it over and over again.
473
:You have to repeat the same
messages over and over and over
474
:again before people get it.
475
:You can't, there's no point just putting
out one, two, or three posts and then
476
:going, oh, nobody, nobody bought my thing.
477
:Nobody hired me.
478
:but I think people give up too soon
because we all buy into this, well,
479
:we don't buy into it, but we see an
awful lot of overnight successes and,
480
:people who went viral and and then
this exploded and, and it's like, it
481
:doesn't happen like that for most of us.
482
:It's like hard graft
over not months, years.
483
:and showing up and being
consistent and being trustworthy
484
:and delivering for the goods.
485
:And it's everything.
486
:And it's a lot, and maybe some people
aren't cut out for it if they think that
487
:that's, that it's just gonna be, I say
I'm a speaker and then I get booked.
488
:That's just not how it works.
489
:John: Sometimes some of the issues that
I see speakers encountering are along,
490
:are kind of along the lines of they, they
have a, an idea of what they want to take
491
:out to the world, into, to the market.
492
:but it's sometimes what they
want isn't what is needed.
493
:and, and I think this is, maybe you've
encountered this as well, like people
494
:get a bit hooked in on like, well,
this is what I want to give people.
495
:This is what I wanna talk about
and take out into the world.
496
:but people aren't buying.
497
:And usually that to me is that that's
one of the biggest disconnects.
498
:Like, well, they don't understand
why they need it, would be the thing.
499
:or they don't see the need.
500
:They just, at the moment they
501
:Sapna Pieroux: don't the,
they don't see the benefit.
502
:I mean, it may, it may be that
what you're peddling is actually a
503
:crock of, it might be a bad idea.
504
:It might be a bad idea.
505
:Or you might have just not
framed it, it correctly.
506
:And again, knowing your brand, knowing
what you want to try and achieve, and
507
:understanding your audience again,
well in that visualized bit, what,
508
:what's the thing that they want?
509
:framing it like that, the amount, even
when I'm doing people's branding and
510
:it's like, say, what have your, what
do your clients think of your brand?
511
:the amount of people that go, I
hadn't even considered what my
512
:clients thought about my brand.
513
:I hadn't even considered it.
514
:I would imagine it's the same with a
lot of people who want to speak and
515
:spit, want to speak about their thing.
516
:I hadn't even considered that.
517
:People might not want to hear it.
518
:It's me.
519
:It's really interesting.
520
:So yeah, finding out actually
what your, what your client
521
:needs might be a good point.
522
:And then it, it might be the same
talk, but it's about how you frame
523
:it to make it appeal to them.
524
:John: Yeah.
525
:It's like sell, sell them what
they want, then give them what they
526
:need, which is, which is usually
a, a good philosophy to have.
527
:Yeah.
528
:I, I wonder this, like from, from your
experience of working with people,
529
:what are the aspects of the process
that you, that you take them through
530
:that are usually most surprising for
them or where they get the biggest
531
:like aha moment kind of things?
532
:Sapna Pieroux: it is that visualized
bit is the fab brand exercise where they
533
:kind of, where we just break things down.
534
:Because I think where when people
kind of go, I wanna be, I wanna
535
:be a successful speaker, or I want
to be, it's like, well, but how do
536
:we, how do we eat that elephant?
537
:How do we actually, let's
start, let's start breaking
538
:that down into the components.
539
:Oh, let's look at successful
people and see what they've done
540
:to do that, because nobody woke up
541
:and became famous, overnight, nobody,
very few people, unless you were born
542
:into, I suppose, I suppose Prince
Andrew got quite famous, didn't he?
543
:Um, for all sorts of reasons.
544
:But, yeah.
545
:but you have to kind of break it down and
then kind of go, well, how, if I wanna
546
:be up here, how am I going to do that?
547
:And what are the steps
that I'm gonna take?
548
:And that's, planning out your path
and then sticking to that path.
549
:And yes, as I say, we can have a couple
of years off there, as life might take
550
:us, but just putting one foot in front
of the other and keeping directionally
551
:correct are the things that are
gonna get you closer to your goal.
552
:John: Right.
553
:I'm not sure
554
:Sapna Pieroux: if that's answered.
555
:John: No, it does because it, it, it
really just sort of reinforces the,
556
:the message that's been in there
that you've been saying, path has
557
:already been trodden ahead of you.
558
:Yeah.
559
:It's that other people, other people
have already done this successfully.
560
:so take a look at a bunch of
them and look what they've been
561
:doing to get there successfully.
562
:Get that right
563
:Sapna Pieroux: and
564
:John: try doing some of that.
565
:Sapna Pieroux: And you'll
see a body of work, right?
566
:You'll see a body of work.
567
:They'll, you'll see, you can scroll
all the way down to their Instagram
568
:when they first started it, I'll bet
you they started with zero followers,
569
:just the same as anybody else, right?
570
:So anybody who's got like 27
million followers on Instagram
571
:had to set up that account at
some point and had zero followers.
572
:go back and you'll see how
rubbish their early posts were.
573
:And, and it's about that consistency
and showing up that actually you
574
:hone your message, you get better.
575
:You look at what works,
look at what doesn't work.
576
:get to get to know your audience better.
577
:Start giving them more of what they want.
578
:It's an, it's an iterative process
and it changes all the time.
579
:John: but, but I think it can be a
little bit demoralizing for people
580
:who, maybe do have the, we'd have
something to say and feel like they're
581
:getting ignored in favor of the
people who, who choose to pay to play.
582
:but I, I just wonder
from, from your say like.
583
:I, I don't think we need to
all be those huge brands.
584
:Where, where do you think someone
really needs to get to, or, I mean,
585
:what advice would you give someone
sort saying, I'm just getting
586
:started with this and nobody's
really paying attention to me yet.
587
:but, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna keep going with it.
588
:Mm-hmm.
589
:But, but I feel a bit, I feel a bit
put out that I'm never gonna be as
590
:big as these people, or that I'm
not, I don't wanna pay to, I don't
591
:wanna have to do this dishonestly.
592
:Sapna Pieroux: Yeah.
593
:John: what would be your words
of advice or encouragement
594
:Sapna Pieroux: without this turning into
a, a LinkedIn, kind of masterclass, which,
595
:John: yeah.
596
:Sapna Pieroux: yeah.
597
:Everybody has to start somewhere.
598
:It's, it's better if you are connected
with like a hundred of your ideal
599
:clients, rather than a million of like
empty followers and bots who ain't
600
:ever gonna buy your stuff, right?
601
:So, yeah, just make sure about the quality
of the people that you are connected with.
602
:and also it's called social media.
603
:So.
604
:don't post and ghost and like people
just sort of like post their shit and
605
:then leave the platform and expect
people to be fawn all over their post.
606
:Yeah.
607
:go and support other people's posts,
like follow the people that you, again,
608
:some of your aspirational brands,
but people that are ahead of you
609
:comment on their posts, with something
meaningful, not like, yay bro, well done.
610
:Or whatever, something meaningful
that's adding to the discussion.
611
:I've noticed that my comments
quite often get more impressions.
612
:They can go wild, the comments go
well, the comments are actually where
613
:the impressions are at the moment.
614
:LinkedIn's not, giving a lot
of people a lot of reach.
615
:Yeah.
616
:But I, I can comment on something.
617
:But yeah, being in the comments
is where new people are gonna find
618
:you if you are on all these other
influential people's, kind of things,
619
:commenting away and make it meaningful.
620
:and also.
621
:Kind of make it really clear when people
do see your name in a comment, those
622
:first three words in your bio, your
LinkedIn bio, need to say, need to.
623
:Don't just talk about what
you, who you are, talk about
624
:what you do for, for clients.
625
:So it, it is, again, it's
a, it's a consistency.
626
:It's showing up, it's being social,
it's commenting, it's adding value.
627
:there's also a whole DM game as well,
which I don't play enough of, but
628
:I should be doing more in the dms.
629
:and when you connect with someone,
like send them a little message,
630
:just say, thank you for connecting.
631
:Don't be cheesy.
632
:Don't try and sell them your shit.
633
:and then they're naturally
gonna see your stuff come up.
634
:when, if, when you, when you DM people.
635
:So this is like little hacks,
but I mean, the algorithm
636
:is, is, is a bitch right now.
637
:John: I'm just thinking, one, one of
the things we end up, I think, feeling
638
:that we may be competing on, especially
for speakers, is that a lot of companies
639
:or bookers potentially will look at
your following, will, they will look at
640
:your, your most superficial stack¡¡ts
641
:and, and, and take that as
to how successful you are.
642
:And I'm just wondering, are there any
other things, like if you, if you don't
643
:have that, if you don't have the sort of
metrics that obvious superstar influencer
644
:online, are there any other things that
you could really highlight to that might
645
:sort of make, make up for that or, or
give you that sort of boost, do you think?
646
:Sapna Pieroux: well, any booker that only
goes on that is, probably, probably not
647
:that it's, it's only one metric, isn't it?
648
:I think person has a huge
amount to do with it.
649
:having, having a professional, kind of
show reel, I guess is another thing.
650
:Just getting to know people.
651
:Just getting to know them as human
beings and connecting with them,
652
:doing stuff that makes you stand out.
653
:Whether it's showing up at the events
that they're at and actually making the
654
:time to get to know them so that when
you are sending 'em a message, it's not
655
:like this faceless email or whatever.
656
:It's just sort of like, it's nice
if, Hey, we met at blah, blah, blah.
657
:Oh yeah, I can remember that.
658
:They're actually had great energy.
659
:You can't get energy, the energy
of somebody from an email,
660
:especially if you've not met them.
661
:John: Yeah.
662
:Sapna Pieroux: so.
663
:Showing up at those spaces
and getting to know people.
664
:I know it's expensive and I'm absolutely
exhausted because I've been doing a
665
:lot of, networking in October and it's,
and it's exhausting, but it, but you
666
:have to see it as business development.
667
:It is about getting
visible in a different way.
668
:I think you have to, certainly
from a speaking point of view, you
669
:have to take things off digital,
670
:John: yeah.
671
:Sapna Pieroux: To make
those connections as well.
672
:and then having, having assets like, okay,
I've got a book that helps things that
673
:are gonna help you cut through the noise.
674
:John: Yeah.
675
:Sapna Pieroux: I've got a book.
676
:You may have great show reel.
677
:You may have won some awards,
testimonials, or another great thing.
678
:have you got testimonials from
other things that you spoke at?
679
:and the difference that
you've made to an event.
680
:So it, it's a lot.
681
:And there are, there are, the
speaking space is only getting
682
:more and more competitive.
683
:I haven't got a magic formula.
684
:I can give you pointers and hints
and things that you maybe not
685
:doing that you could do more of,
but it's different for everyone.
686
:John: Yeah, you're probably not
the only person who will say that.
687
:but it's super important advice because
I don't think we all do it or actually
688
:making those personal connections with
people, because I think most of us would
689
:rather just fire off an email or fire off
for WhatsApp message rather than actually
690
:get, least get on a voice call or get
on a Zoom call or try and meet in person
691
:with people because the, there is no
replacement, like the personal connection
692
:that you have, people, especially when
you do meet them in person, is much
693
:deeper than you ever get from any other
form of communication and connection.
694
:So I think it doesn't, it's not one of
those things that goes without saying,
695
:but it, it, it needs to be repeated.
696
:Repeated because so many don't do it.
697
:To
698
:Sapna Pieroux: a certain degree, you
do have to pay to play to a certain
699
:degree by paying to be in those rooms.
700
:Right?
701
:Right.
702
:And the people that show up in
those rooms, you've probably paid
703
:for a ticket to be in those rooms.
704
:But that's when you get to meet people and
you can meet, tens of people, all at once.
705
:And, and that's worth so many more
than the emails that, 'cause then
706
:when you do drop 'em an email,
you've actually got a connection.
707
:You've got like, you had a,
had a bit of a laugh with them
708
:or had a drink with them, or,
709
:John: I remember
710
:Sapna Pieroux: me.
711
:Yeah, same speak.
712
:You've got something in common with them.
713
:Yeah.
714
:People like, people like them.
715
:So put yourself in the same room.
716
:John: one, one of the things, another key
chance, I know you've been doing, talking,
717
:being a speaker yourself.
718
:can you share with us some of the
people who you have looked up to
719
:and modeled your business growth on?
720
:I'm assuming you applied, you applied
this process to yourself, but who, who
721
:would be the people that you perhaps,
or some of the people you've modeled
722
:on for yourself to grow your business
in, in the direction they have?
723
:Sapna Pieroux: People that I have
learned from, not necessarily modeled
724
:myself on, but certainly you can
take hints from, people like Dan
725
:Priestley, I, I, I, I joined his course.
726
:that a lot of the stuff that he
does, I don't do all the things and
727
:he's got massive business, but, and
certainly learned a lot from him.
728
:yeah, Lucy mcc, who's my publisher,
is an absolute inspiration to me.
729
:and the fact that she launched Book
Magic, the AI platform in her 70th year.
730
:it became a tech bro.
731
:It just kind of, when I think, oh,
God, I'm too old to be going into
732
:this AI space, I think well give
yourself a good talking to Sapna,
733
:because that's, that is just like,
you can do this stuff at any age.
734
:and Lucy is coming up and innovating
and smashing it out the park.
735
:So she is a massive, guiding light for me.
736
:people like Robin, wait, who's a friend
of mine, also a client collaborator,
737
:who's a business coach who has built
his business, very transparently, he's
738
:incredibly transparent, incredibly honest,
has really good values, is a family man.
739
:so these are not values
that I, that I learned.
740
:These were things that I was doing
anyway, but aligning myself with people
741
:like him, is a good thing, right?
742
:People know that we're friends.
743
:They know, they know I did his branding.
744
:They know that, that we,
we share a lot of the same.
745
:Values.
746
:and so yeah, that's, that's, three.
747
:maybe, maybe Leah Turner is another one.
748
:I dunno if you've heard of her.
749
:She's a massive,
influencer on, on LinkedIn.
750
:but again, she has built a business,
around herself and her lifestyle and, her
751
:needs, but in serving others and creating
a beautiful community, the Holt, which
752
:I am a part of, and if anybody wants to
join, get in contact with me because I
753
:can get you in through backdoor Barry.
754
:so you don't have to wait
the for the waiting list.
755
:She has built a beautiful community
of, wonderful human beings just
756
:by showing up as a beautiful human
being herself with amazing values.
757
:Yeah.
758
:So, yeah, people like that.
759
:John: There's, those are good
people to have in your circle
760
:and, and your eyeline for sure.
761
:Sapna Pieroux: Yeah.
762
:John: Your book you've already
mentioned is called, let's Get Visible.
763
:Mm-hmm.
764
:so that people can go
and get that anywhere.
765
:But for anyone who's sort of
thinking, oh yeah, you shared,
766
:you shared a lot of nuggets today.
767
:We had a lot of, fun
interest in fan thinking.
768
:I'd like to know more.
769
:I'd like to check in with Sapna.
770
:What's, what's gonna be the
best way for them to connect
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:more, get further with you?
772
:Sapna Pieroux: LinkedIn
is where I mainly play.
773
:so LinkedIn, absolutely.
774
:and then my book let's Get Visible
is available on Waterstones or Amazon
775
:I'm launching Brand visions.ai,
776
:which is a, an AI brand
consultant to help you create your
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:John: brand.
778
:Oh, wow.
779
:Sapna Pieroux: Yeah.
780
:John: Fantastic.
781
:So lot, lots of ways to
help help us advance.
782
:Zach.
783
:No, you've been, you've been
a delight to talk to today.
784
:It's been a very fun conversation
and I hope you've enjoyed it too.
785
:Thank you for coming and being a guest on
786
:professional speaking
787
:Sapna Pieroux: Thank you for having me.
788
:John: Thanks for joining me for this
episode of Professional Speaking, and I
789
:would say one of the things that stood
out for me in that conversation that I
790
:didn't fully pick up on the first time
around, but I think is super important, is
791
:the fact that we need to keep delivering
the same message multiple times.
792
:Now, as a content creator myself,
I have been very aware of.
793
:Sometimes you think, oh, I've
already covered that topic.
794
:I'm not going to come back to it.
795
:Let's move on to something else that
you have to keep providing fresh
796
:topics, new information, everything
updated, but if you are creating
797
:any kind of content, there's a good
chance that not everybody is going to
798
:have seen what you've already done.
799
:If you're a podcast creator,
not everyone is going to have
800
:listened to all of your episodes.
801
:If you are an article writer,
not everyone is going to have
802
:read your previous articles.
803
:work on the basis that someone is coming
to you brand new and isn't going to know
804
:everything they need to know about you
and that your most important messages
805
:need to be reinforced and heard over again
in different ways with different stories
806
:and different ways to back them up.
807
:This will not only help you get better
at talking about what you do, it's
808
:also gonna help you find the ways to
cut through the noise and be heard.
809
:So instead of always trying to create
something new, which might be more
810
:interesting for you, remember that
a lot of your audience that you want
811
:to reach are not yet familiar with
your messages and haven't heard some
812
:of the important things that you have
to say that might sit at the core of
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:what you do and how you help people.
814
:So those messages need
to be repeated often.
815
:you are always more at risk of getting
bored of your message before your
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:audience do so let go of the worry
about that and that it isn't new to you,
817
:but it's gonna be new to other people.
818
:And even for the people it's
not new to, they could probably
819
:stand to hear it again.
820
:And I don't know about you,
but sometimes when I listen to
821
:something over again, like this
episode, I hear something different.
822
:I pick up on something that I didn't
get in a previous go around, and that
823
:is what you are going to give your
audience the potential to do as well.
824
:We always learn on new levels
when we are relearning things.
825
:So if this conversation has given you
something useful to think about you.
826
:May well want to hear more from me and
subscribe to my LinkedIn newsletter
827
:called Serious About Speaking, where
I share more practical ideas and
828
:more considered takes on speaking,
persuasion, credibility, and the business
829
:of becoming known, booked, and paid.
830
:You'll find a link in the show
notes, but for now, wherever you're
831
:going, whatever you're doing,
have an amazing rest of your day.
832
:See you next time.
