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Great trial lawyers are made, not
born. Welcome to Verdict Academy,
Speaker:preserving trial wisdom for trial
lawyers. Join host Kevin Morrison,
Speaker:trial attorney in San Francisco,
Speaker:as he recreates those invaluable hallway
conversations that remote work has made
Speaker:rare.
Speaker:Candid insights and hard-won lessons
from America's most accomplished trial
Speaker:lawyers. Produced and powered by LawPods.
Speaker:Hey everybody. Welcome to another
edition of Verdict Academy.
Speaker:I am beyond thrilled, grateful,
Speaker:and happy to have esteemed national
trial attorney Christopher J.
Speaker:Beaman join us today. And not only is
he an esteemed national trial attorney,
Speaker:he's also my very good friend.
So thanks for joining us, Chris.
Speaker:Happy to be here. Can't
wait to get going here.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:I need to tell the audience about all
your awesome accolades for just a minute
Speaker:or two because there's so
many. It may take me a moment,
Speaker:but Chris is a member of
what I call the Big Four,
Speaker:which is the four invitation-only
elite trial organizations,
Speaker:which consists of ABODA, ISOB,
the Inter Society of Barristers,
Speaker:the International Academy
at Trial Lawyers, and of
course the American College.
Speaker:And Chris, not only is he a
member of those organizations,
Speaker:usually a leader of them. For example,
Speaker:he led our San Francisco chapter
as president a few years back.
Speaker:He was the National Aboda
Foundation president two years ago?
Speaker:I think so. 2023, right?
Speaker:There you go. Two years ago.
Speaker:And raised a record amount
of money for the foundation,
Speaker:which helps funds all of
his educational programs,
Speaker:which is so important to
preserve the Seventh Amendment.
Speaker:He has been awarded our
chapter's highest honor,
Speaker:which is the Don Bailey Civility Award,
Speaker:along with his best bud and our
mutual friend, Rich Schoenberger,
Speaker:a couple years ago. He teaches in lectures
and tradvocacy across the Bay Area.
Speaker:He's also an awesome person. He's
a great cyclist, great swimmer,
Speaker:and has a terrific family.
And if you don't like Chris,
Speaker:you're going to love his wife, Jill,
who's become my friend too. So welcome,
Speaker:Chris Beaman.
Speaker:Yes. Looking forward to catching
up with you, Kamo. Oops,
Speaker:there goes your nickname.
Speaker:Whoa. Oh, no. Catch out
of the bag. By the way,
Speaker:I was looking at your CV
or your bio this morning,
Speaker:and I thought I knew you pretty well,
Speaker:and I was shocked to learn that you
were on the dean's list in law school.
Speaker:Are you sure they got the right grades
and the right transcript matched up with
Speaker:the right name?
Speaker:So let the ripping begin at the
outset of our podcast. Yes, I did.
Speaker:I went to Santa Clara, which I
really enjoyed going to school there.
Speaker:It was an awesome place to go to law
school after I came out here from the
Speaker:Midwest. And there must have been
lower standards then because yeah,
Speaker:I was a pieceless guy.
Speaker:So Chicago boy, born and raised Chicago,
Notre Dame, big fighting Irish fan.
Speaker:And then you moved out to Santa
Clara to go to law school.
Speaker:What brought you out to California?
Speaker:Well, it was chasing a
woman, was short-lived,
Speaker:but it's interesting how I rounded out
my education with a Jesuit law school.
Speaker:And again, I just can't say
enough about Santa Clara.
Speaker:I think I've hired about 30 or 40 lawyers
from Santa Clara since I graduated in
Speaker:1985, but I went to a Dominican high
school in Chicago, Fenwick High School.
Speaker:And then Notre Dame is a Brothers of
the Holy Cross College. And of course,
Speaker:Santa Clara is a Jesuit institution.
Speaker:So I have the trifecta
of Catholic education.
Speaker:And if that counted for anything,
I might be able to get into heaven,
Speaker:but I think I got an uphill battle there.
Speaker:I think you missed the Franciscans,
Speaker:but there's always a chance in the
future to get involved somewhere.
Speaker:Let's get into the meat of the podcast.
Speaker:And the podcast is designed basically
for younger trial attorneys to hear from
Speaker:the veterans and what they need to
know for trial because as you know,
Speaker:there are fewer, fewer trials these days
are more expensive, harder to get out.
Speaker:And we've had the benefit and certainly
you have of how many cases have you
Speaker:tried to vertic, Chris?
Speaker:I think somebody just asked
me that yesterday, and I
think I've tried about 65.
Speaker:I've tried cases with multiple plaintiffs,
Speaker:so I've tried cases brought by
more than a hundred plaintiffs,
Speaker:but the actual lawsuits are
probably around 65 jury trials.
Speaker:It's been a good run.
Speaker:It's something that I know we're going
to get into that I think is worth saying
Speaker:at the outset is that even
having tried that many cases,
Speaker:there's still a great
deal of energy, anxiety,
Speaker:and not fear,
Speaker:but the preparation for trial and the
buildup to trial still brings a lot of
Speaker:excitement after all those trials.
Speaker:And that's kind of one thing that
keeps lawyers at our age and grade
Speaker:going because it's still
a great competition and
still has a lot of thrill to
Speaker:it, I would say, even
after all these trials.
Speaker:You're definitely a competitor
and you're a national storyteller.
Speaker:What drew you to trial law? What made
you think, you know what, this is for me?
Speaker:Well, kind of going back to Chicago,
Speaker:I first was introduced to
the practice of law one.
Speaker:I worked at a big law firm in Chicago.
Speaker:It's called Kirkland and Ellis.
And I worked there in the summer,
Speaker:I was a runner, so I basically worked
in the mailroom and it was really cool.
Speaker:I saw a little bit of behind the
scenes stuff. I delivered documents.
Speaker:This was way before fax or email or
anything else and kind of got to at least
Speaker:see the behind the curtain stuff
that was going on at that law firm.
Speaker:And it was intriguing enough for me to
think, huh, that would be kind of cool.
Speaker:And I went to undergraduate in Indiana
and decided that it would be good to
Speaker:spread my wings a little bit and move
away from the Midwest to try law school.
Speaker:So as I mentioned before,
Speaker:I came out here in the early
80s to Santa Clara. I really,
Speaker:really enjoyed the torts class.
Speaker:I think that might've been the
first class I ever attended.
Speaker:And the professor was Alan Sheflin,
who's a really interesting guy,
Speaker:great storyteller, and
made it really interesting.
Speaker:So I kind of immediately engaged and
tore it. I loved some other courses,
Speaker:including, believe it or not,
Speaker:I love civil procedure and evidence
were two other great courses.
Speaker:So I started to see I didn't have a love
for trust in estates and didn't find it
Speaker:interesting and thought
wills was really boring.
Speaker:And I eventually got into
moot court and thought,
Speaker:this is fun because now we're going at
it just like playing basketball against
Speaker:my friends growing up and whatever
else we did to stay occupied.
Speaker:But the competition part of it definitely
was what really drew me because I
Speaker:always say life is a competition. I mean,
Speaker:just about everything we do is a
competition. And this was a way to make a
Speaker:living while also competing
and hopefully winning.
Speaker:That's always more fun than losing.
Speaker:So that's how I got drawn into
this trial work that we do.
Speaker:And you've been with the same firm
your whole career, right, Clap Maroney?
Speaker:I have. I'm not sure if that
makes me smart or stupid,
Speaker:but it's been good to me. I've got some
great opportunities as a young lawyer.
Speaker:And one of the things about our firm is
that we do trial a lot of cases and we
Speaker:do have ... It's kind of a
great avenue to get into trial.
Speaker:Started out doing insurance defense work
and still that practice really carried
Speaker:me through 30 years or so until I
started to do other things that were
Speaker:tangential to being hired
by our insurance companies.
Speaker:But that's a really great way for young
lawyers when you're coming out of law
Speaker:school.
Speaker:The two places that you can almost be
guaranteed to try cases are the district
Speaker:attorney's office, public defender,
insurance defense firms, they try cases.
Speaker:And obviously plaintiff's
firms like yours like Alterra,
Speaker:which is a great firm that
I have a lot of respect for.
Speaker:Yeah, it is hard to get out to trial.
Speaker:So we're focused on things that help
trial tips basically to help the younger
Speaker:lawyers. I'm a big rule of three guy.
Speaker:And so you've got three topics that
you picked out and the first is trial
Speaker:preparation.
Speaker:What do you want younger trial attorneys
to know about trial preparation
Speaker:generally and how do
you prepare for trial?
Speaker:Well, that's kind of a broad topic,
Speaker:but I did think that that
was worth talking about
because one thing that you'll
Speaker:hear over and over again from
a jury, from jurors afterwards,
Speaker:because when you finish a trial,
Speaker:usually the judge gives the lawyers an
opportunity to interact with the jurors
Speaker:if the jurors are willing
to stick around and talk.
Speaker:And something that jurors are usually
complimentary about is when the
Speaker:lawyers that are in the courtroom are
prepared because it's really amazing how
Speaker:some aren't. I guess that's one
of the things about competing.
Speaker:You want to be ready for the game.
You want to be ready for the trial,
Speaker:obviously, but it's a long process
and it really needs to start early.
Speaker:So I thought if we spent
some time talking about that,
Speaker:and I'd love you to chime in and tell
me what the plaintiff's side does,
Speaker:because I think there's certainly some
distinction between the way we approach
Speaker:these cases.
But being a defendant,
Speaker:one of the benefits of getting to trial
is that the plaintiffs do go first.
Speaker:So it gives the defense time
to continue getting organized.
Speaker:I think we were joking around about
this recently where when it's a defense
Speaker:case,
Speaker:the plaintiff has to worry about all
the witnesses and all the stuff upfront,
Speaker:and the defense lawyer gets
to kind of watch it unfold.
Speaker:And obviously there's a lot to do
with cross-examination and such,
Speaker:but it's still,
Speaker:you get to kind of lie and wait a
little bit for your side to come.
Speaker:But going back to the prep for trial,
Speaker:I think people all have heard by now
many times that the first thing or one
Speaker:of the very first things you need to do,
Speaker:which is both practical and also helps
guide what you're going to do with
Speaker:the defense of the case is to look at
the jury instructions. And it's really,
Speaker:I work up cases now with
partners and associates.
Speaker:So usually there's a collaboration
and the team approach to this.
Speaker:I still always do the jury instructions.
Speaker:Even though my partners
could do a great job on them,
Speaker:I really like to do them
so that I'm thinking about
what's going to be important
Speaker:to develop in the case. So that's pretty
simple, but if you go right to Casey,
Speaker:if it's a premises case,
Speaker:you remind yourself what the elements
are and what potential defenses you have
Speaker:about notice.
Speaker:And it's really a good way to kind
of engage early as looking at the law
Speaker:and thinking about how you're going to
prove your affirmative defenses or defeat
Speaker:the effort by the plaintiff's lawyer to
submit evidence that's going to support
Speaker:their case. So that's a
really basic principle,
Speaker:but I think it's really important to do
that. And I don't open a casey as soon
Speaker:as a case comes in,
Speaker:especially because some of the cases have
common themes or at least common fact
Speaker:patterns that you can rely on your
historical knowledge to get going on,
Speaker:but eventually you crack
that casey and say, okay,
Speaker:which of these instructions is
going to be important in this case?
Speaker:And the use notes too, I tell my
younger that the use notes are huge,
Speaker:so important.
Speaker:Right, totally.
Speaker:It's funny because that always comes
up when we're arguing whether the
Speaker:instructions are applicable or
whether the judge is going to give the
Speaker:instructions. So I have to admit,
even though, as you noted earlier,
Speaker:I was on dean's list,
Speaker:I don't always read the use notes
until we get right into the chambers
Speaker:conferences about giving
instructions. But that's one,
Speaker:I think the instructions are a great way
to get the roadmap for what you need to
Speaker:get going on in the case. The
other things, these are, I think,
Speaker:fairly basic ways to approach
getting ready for trial,
Speaker:but putting your team
together is really important.
Speaker:And I do try to have consistency
in the people that are helping me
Speaker:with discovery. And I'm very
fortunate. I've worked with my friend,
Speaker:Kevin Dessler, who's paralegal in our
office for almost my entire career,
Speaker:in fact,
Speaker:for my entire career. So we have a very
good system about getting organized.
Speaker:What's his email address?
I could use somebody.
Speaker:Yeah. He is not available, I
hope, if he ever listens to this,
Speaker:but he's always been a great support. I
think we've tried every case together.
Speaker:I can't think of a single one.
Speaker:And that's really helpful
from a comfort standpoint
Speaker:and from a just routine standpoint.
Speaker:Just like getting a jury consultant,
Speaker:you and I were talking to one of the
jury consultants that you used just a few
Speaker:weeks ago at the Altair party,
Speaker:and she was actually highly complimentary
of Kevin Morrison's ability to pick a
Speaker:jury, which was, I
thought, impressive event.
Speaker:I have paid her a fair amount
of money with you, but yeah.
Speaker:I try to engage a jury
consultant early if,
Speaker:depending on the exposure and the
expenses and the client's authority to do
Speaker:that,
Speaker:which is something the defense has to
deal with probably a little bit more than
Speaker:the plaintiff's side of things because
we have to ask for permission for a lot
Speaker:of stuff and get our client
to commit to paying it.
Speaker:That's another important
cog for me because jury
consultants obviously have seen
Speaker:lots of different kind of cases and can
help with themes and certainly with the
Speaker:selection of the actual jury, which
I think we're going to talk about.
Speaker:But putting together a team and
hopefully having a cohesive team that
Speaker:communicates regularly about what
needs to be done to get the case ready,
Speaker:that's a very useful tool to have. And
getting the cases ready themselves,
Speaker:once you have your team lined
up and you understand the law,
Speaker:then you have to conduct the discovery,
Speaker:which I think is probably a whole other
chapter that we don't need to go in
Speaker:today.
But how you start with the discovery,
Speaker:whether you take the plaintiff's
deposition early or later,
Speaker:depending on if it's a TBI case where
maybe the plaintiff will get better over
Speaker:time and you want to wait.
Speaker:Or when the IMEs are done and you have
plaintiffs examined by different kind of
Speaker:medical professionals, that all
depends on where the case is,
Speaker:who the plaintiff's lawyer
is, where it's venued,
Speaker:all those factors that really kind of
impact how you're going to prepare the
Speaker:case. And let's face
it, most cases settle.
Speaker:So you're preparing the case for trial
with the likelihood that it's going to
Speaker:resolve.
Speaker:But I think it almost goes without saying
that if you don't prepare a case for
Speaker:trial, then it will go to trial.
Speaker:100%. 100%. Yeah. On trial prep,
Speaker:I'm going to get to jury selection in
a second. I'm glad you made that segue,
Speaker:but you parachute in a lot of cases,
Speaker:which means the case is worked up on
their firm and the defendant says,
Speaker:"You know what?
Speaker:We want an actual trial attorney
to this case." You get the case,
Speaker:so it's in the box, right? A
lot of the depths are done,
Speaker:maybe expert discovery's done.
Speaker:What do you want to see first
when you're parachuting in a case?
Speaker:Well, chewing somebody else's
gum is usually uncomfortable,
Speaker:but it is something that we do often.
Speaker:And sometimes you get a case
that's in great shape and you go,
Speaker:"These are all the questions I need in
this expert deposition." And sometimes
Speaker:you get a case where the
expert depositions aren't
even taken yet or it's too
Speaker:late to take them.
Speaker:So there's all a great variety
of what kind of shape the file is
Speaker:in. It's funny,
Speaker:and I want to say the plaintiff's
lawyers are able to be a little bit more
Speaker:selective typically in which client
they're going to accept than defense
Speaker:lawyers. I mean, that's not always
true, but I think as a rule of thumb,
Speaker:it does seem to work that way. So
if we're parachuting into a case,
Speaker:usually it's because there's
some desperation or some
lack of confidence or some
Speaker:problem. So that can be a
little unsettling, but you
go in blind. So you say,
Speaker:"Sure, we'll jump in.
Speaker:" And then you get into file and you
look at it and you go, "Holy shit,
Speaker:what have I done? Why did we do this?
Speaker:" But what we're looking
for there, I mean,
Speaker:you always have to start with
the plaintiff. You really want,
Speaker:especially hopefully it's
videotaped deposition,
Speaker:and you can get a real feel for how that
person is going to come across to the
Speaker:jury because I mean,
Speaker:I think the most important things when
you're evaluating or trying a case are
Speaker:easy to recognize. One is
who's the plaintiff's lawyer?
Speaker:And I always look at the pleadings
immediately to see if I recognize the
Speaker:plaintiff's lawyer. And if so,
Speaker:whether he or she is a trial lawyer or
somebody who maybe doesn't try cases,
Speaker:because that'll affect certainly the
settlement value and also how you approach
Speaker:the case. The other thing that I've
mentioned already is eyeballing the
Speaker:plaintiff is critical to
understanding what you're going to do.
Speaker:Is it somebody the
jury's not going to like?
Speaker:Is it somebody the jury will think
is embellishing or not being accurate
Speaker:with the facts?
Speaker:And you can get a little bit of a sense
for that just by watching the video
Speaker:deposition, body language, their
demeanor. So that's, I think,
Speaker:a real critical place to start.
Speaker:The other thing that's obviously important
in terms of what's going to happen in
Speaker:trial is who's your judge? Have you
been in front of the judge before?
Speaker:Is it a judge that
you're comfortable with?
Speaker:Is it too late to challenge
the judge, which usually it is.
Speaker:But those are the things
that we're looking at when
we first put our toe into a
Speaker:case that we're parachuting in to try.
Speaker:Got it. So let's move to jury selection.
Speaker:We talked a little bit a little already.
Speaker:Is this the most important single part
of trial to you picking the jury? I.
Speaker:Think it is because what you're doing
is you're creating the audience for your
Speaker:narrative.
Speaker:So you're looking for an audience that
is receptive to your story or at least
Speaker:that will be fair. So it's a
process that, and I know you both,
Speaker:you really like this too.
I think this is probably,
Speaker:I guess lawyers like different
things. I love cross-examination.
Speaker:I really love closing arguments, but
my favorite part is jury selection.
Speaker:And I think we both have said
getting to know jurors is an
Speaker:enjoyable process. It doesn't
always go the way you want it to.
Speaker:You mentioned Rich Schoenberger,
Speaker:who's somebody that we
both admire and like a lot.
Speaker:And I'll talk about him
for a second because I've
watched him pick a jury and he
Speaker:has a remarkable memory. He's very,
Speaker:very good with the names of the
jurors without looking at notes.
Speaker:He's just got the ability to kind
of capture that. And his style,
Speaker:which I think this is the style
that works for most of us,
Speaker:I think you and me and Rich for sure,
Speaker:is to have a conversation
with the jury and to feel what
Speaker:they're feeling.
Speaker:That is really to get to understand
how they're seeing general
Speaker:concepts of the law. And it is a
little bit of a delicate balance.
Speaker:We're kind of towing the
line on explaining some of
the facts because we can't
Speaker:get them indoctrinated
too much to the facts,
Speaker:but we do want to talk about those.
Speaker:So that's a process that I don't
know if it comes naturally. Oh,
Speaker:I meant to say this is what I
was going to say about Rich.
Speaker:He actually practices his jury selection,
Speaker:which I think is really interesting and
has people when he's working with a jury
Speaker:consultant,
Speaker:they have a panel and he actually
goes through different responses or
Speaker:reactions to what people tell them,
Speaker:which I think is a really interesting
and kind of novel for me at least way to
Speaker:do that. That's not something
that I do. Do you do that, Kamal?
Speaker:I do actually. If I'm rusty, meaning
if I haven't tried a case in a year,
Speaker:I like to do a mock pick and
an opening with 12 to 15 people
Speaker:in a focus group type situation. It
just gets the rest out. And yeah,
Speaker:I think it's really helpful.
Speaker:Yeah, that's it. I'm learning something
from this podcast by listening.
Speaker:I am intrigued by that,
so maybe next time around.
Speaker:I've never not learned something. I
mean, just the phrase of something,
Speaker:or I've always learned
something that's always ...
Speaker:It's a pain in the butt because it's
the weekend or two before trial.
Speaker:You're busy as hell. You got all
these motions and other, the garbage,
Speaker:as I like to say, the
minutia, the distractions,
Speaker:but it is so critical and I think it
is the most important part of trial.
Speaker:And I always learn something
and improve our chances.
Speaker:Second to jury,
Speaker:do you just want to figure out if they're
a leader where if they're open to the
Speaker:defense case?
Speaker:Because the plaintiff's attorney gets
to go first and maybe you spend an hour
Speaker:with them and let's assume
that plaintiff's attorney's
a good guy or a good
Speaker:person has made a decent impression.
So you get up and now you get to go,
Speaker:which is a challenge.
So what are you looking for?
Speaker:Are you kind of going off what the
bad answers from your perspective are?
Speaker:Are you just trying to make sure
they're open to hear two sides?
Speaker:What are your goals in jury selection?
Speaker:Well, first I want to plug my jury
consultant, Andrew Walker from Cogent.
Speaker:And I've worked with them for
about 10 years or maybe more.
Speaker:And we have a good system with, I think
he's extremely organized, very helpful.
Speaker:They do great background and
social media searches and such on
Speaker:the veneer. And I think I said
the right word. Sounds good to.
Speaker:Me. Jury panel? I call it jury panel.
Speaker:Certainly since the pandemic,
Speaker:every case I've tried has
had a jury questionnaire.
Speaker:Do you like those, by the way?
Speaker:I do. I mean,
Speaker:it's more information and I
think it does make our voir dire
Speaker:more pointed because you can learn the
general stuff without having everybody
Speaker:tell you and you can read it.
Speaker:My figure on this real quick is people
are always going to be honest when
Speaker:they're by themselves
writing something down.
Speaker:But when you have to speak
in front of a big group,
Speaker:a lot of people just don't like doing
that and they'll shade their comments
Speaker:because they'll think, "Well, I better
not say this because he'll think this. ".
Speaker:I agree. And I think that
it is, you can find stuff.
Speaker:And this is when it's really helpful
to have a trial team because what we
Speaker:typically do is, the last case I tried,
I tried with my partner, Ashley Myers,
Speaker:and she's got her own unique perspective.
Speaker:She's younger than I am and obviously
comes from a little bit of different
Speaker:background. So we had our jury consultant,
Andrew, paralegal Kevin Dussler,
Speaker:and then my partner, Ashley and I,
Speaker:each reviewing the jury questionnaires
and everybody finds different things in
Speaker:the jury questionnaire. So that's
a huge organizational task.
Speaker:I was just in Marin County and
we were going to have two panels,
Speaker:which would've ended up
resolving, so we didn't do that.
Speaker:But staying organized in jury selections
is hugely important and critically
Speaker:important.
Speaker:And so what we're looking for is
obviously that's really one of your only
Speaker:opportunities to make a first impression.
Depending on whether you've done a
Speaker:mini opening, that would
be your very first.
Speaker:But if it's a statement
of the case that's read,
Speaker:then really jury selection's your
first chance to make an impression.
Speaker:So being organized is super important
because juries do not want to
Speaker:sit around watching a lawyer fumble for
a note card to figure out what he meant
Speaker:to ask juror number 12. So
that's really important.
Speaker:And that's why that's one of the huge
values of having a jury consultant that
Speaker:can keep you on track just with the way
they organize their charts and the color
Speaker:coded system of you go into
the selection with some rating
Speaker:system of the jurors that are out
based on their questionnaires,
Speaker:whether they seem like they're your kind
of a juror. And then what you're doing,
Speaker:you hit one of them as you're trying to
determine leaders and the strength of
Speaker:the juror and which tendency the juror
might be showing during the questioning
Speaker:process. And there are defense
profiles that we look for. Typically,
Speaker:it depends on the facts of the case
and who the plaintiff is, of course,
Speaker:but we're usually trying to find
jurors that fit into the slots that we
Speaker:like based on their background,
their education level, their income,
Speaker:their leadership. So I don't
think I've told any secrets yet,
Speaker:but that's kind of the way we approach it.
Speaker:And when you're picking a jury,
Speaker:are you yourself taking notes or
you relying on your team to do that?
Speaker:A little bit of both.
Speaker:I try not to take too many notes because
you can get distracted by doing that,
Speaker:but I take a lot of notes when the
judge is doing voir dire and when the
Speaker:plaintiff's lawyer is. I mean,
I'm listening and watching.
Speaker:That's when you get the follow-up
questions if you get to that point.
Speaker:And generally speaking, I always, and
I'd be curious to know how you do this,
Speaker:Kevin, but I always talk to the entire
... Usually it's a six-pack method,
Speaker:although that changes from
department to department.
Speaker:But whoever's in the
box or we're talking to,
Speaker:I try to talk to everybody
first as a collective global
Speaker:audience,
Speaker:and then depending on the patience
of the judge and the type of
Speaker:cases,
Speaker:I do try to at least introduce myself
and ask a question of each juror if that
Speaker:works. It doesn't always.
And in that case,
Speaker:then you just apologize that you're
not going to talk to them and hope they
Speaker:don't mind not being on the spot
when you're asking them questions.
Speaker:Yeah, same. I do think it's
important to talk to every juror,
Speaker:even if it's like Mr. Last person,
and judge just give me 30 seconds,
Speaker:is there anything you heard that leads
you to conclude that you might not be ...
Speaker:Just to give them ...
Speaker:Maybe that they know an uncle or
something happened that's dramatic,
Speaker:and every once in a while
it's like, "Oh yeah,
Speaker:I was a claims adjuster or my father was
killed." Or you learn something about
Speaker:somebody who's not talking, which
is huge. It can be a game changer.
Speaker:No doubt. All right.
Speaker:Last topic then is closing
argument. There's kind of
two views on this, I think.
Speaker:One is closing is, first of all,
Speaker:it's super fun to do as lawyers because
we like to get up there and start our
Speaker:stuff. But the jury's kind
of fried at this point.
Speaker:And so when you're giving a closing,
Speaker:do you think you can swing the
entire verdict at that point?
Speaker:Are you trying to throw out some
tidbits to your jurors to use?
Speaker:What is your strategy in closing argument?
Speaker:Well, again, being organized
is really important.
Speaker:So I hope I'm not overemphasizing
that, but particularly in closing,
Speaker:when typically the cases that you and I
try are long cases, they're complicated,
Speaker:they have a lot of issues. In your case,
a lot of times, a lot of plaintiffs.
Speaker:So the energy that you have at the end
of trial does begin to wane depending on
Speaker:how long you've been going at it and what
the schedule has been with the judge.
Speaker:But I do think that that's when
the adrenaline kind of kicks in,
Speaker:at least it does for me.
Speaker:And then the late nights to
get the PowerPoint together
and how to organize the
Speaker:evidence and the jury instructions,
because that's critical, I think.
Speaker:It's not a big trick,
Speaker:but I've never given a closing argument
without having a special verdict that I
Speaker:completed for and with the jury
because that's something new to them. I
Speaker:always try to get something new
going during closing because they've
Speaker:seen the evidence, they've heard
usually a lot of testimony.
Speaker:So if you can just refine the
important evidence to your case and
Speaker:present it in a way that
might be a little different,
Speaker:even if they might've heard
some important testimony,
Speaker:but if you can either replay
their deposition if that
was how the evidence came
Speaker:in or display on a screen the
actual text of their testimony
Speaker:so that that kind of comes to
life in a different way for them.
Speaker:Do you get dailies so you can throw the
trial transcript up there or what do you
Speaker:do with.
Speaker:That? It depends on the
case, honestly. I mean,
Speaker:it kind of depends on the exposure and
whether we have the ability to do that.
Speaker:I do sometimes do that. One thing I
wanted to say is that with technology,
Speaker:obviously people love to learn
by looking and seeing things.
Speaker:And that's how I learn myself. I'm
a visual learner, but in closing,
Speaker:I try to not get overtly tech.
Speaker:Low tech can just be just
as good as high tech,
Speaker:including I use whiteboard,
I use overhead projectors,
Speaker:I use Elmos.
Speaker:And you don't want to do too many
because that gets a little confusing.
Speaker:It's like juggling balls.
Speaker:But I do think that the tendency of people
to be married to their PowerPoint and
Speaker:closing is not a good trend.
Speaker:And I try to avoid that myself just
because as much as people like to look at
Speaker:stuff, I think it becomes
a little rote if it's all,
Speaker:everything's on a slide. So I try
to change it up into some of those.
Speaker:Mix it up, make them pass a
photograph around that kind of stuff,
Speaker:throw something up on a whiteboard.
Speaker:We're defense lawyers,
Speaker:I don't think I've ever tried a case
that doesn't have a timeline in it.
Speaker:We're very big on timelines,
Speaker:especially when there's medicine involved
or some gap of treatment or something.
Speaker:And the jurors I think really like
when you illustrate that as opposed to
Speaker:talking about it, when
you show like, okay,
Speaker:here's 2022 and here are the 10 months
where there were no complaints of any
Speaker:residual brain injury symptoms.
Speaker:And here's when you went to see Topher
Stevenson after that and all of a sudden
Speaker:had a brain injury. I think
those can be very helpful.
Speaker:Timelines are critical. We're
almost done. Believe it or not,
Speaker:I could talk to you all day
long and would love to do so,
Speaker:but let me ask you this question.
You got a tough liability case.
Speaker:Let's say it's a tossup.
You could defense it,
Speaker:but it's a huge damage case and the
plaintiff's attorney's got a big ask out
Speaker:there, $50 million suggestion
or whatever it is in closing.
Speaker:When you get up to close, you think
you've got a decent chance to defense it,
Speaker:but it is high exposure.
Speaker:Is it your general philosophy to float
a defense number as well after you argue
Speaker:the hell out of the liability
or do you just leave that alone?
Speaker:What's your general philosophy there?
Speaker:There's a sliding scale to my
answer for that. And that is,
Speaker:I think if you're ... First, I want to
back up and address one other thing.
Speaker:If there's a case of liability and
you're not going to win the liability,
Speaker:the decision you have to make is,
Speaker:should we concede that we're negligent
and just argue no causation or
Speaker:minimal damages?
Speaker:And that's a decision that we don't
take that very lightly because if you do
Speaker:concede it, obviously you can't argue
against it, but at the same time,
Speaker:you can really establish your
credibility by lying down on negligence
Speaker:if you're not going to win.
If you guaranteed not to win,
Speaker:then you can get the jury to see
how reasonable you are by not
Speaker:arguing it. In a tough liability case,
Speaker:you don't want to lose your credibility
on the liability piece of the case
Speaker:because that could impact whether they
believe what you're going to say about
Speaker:damages. So that transition is
always really difficult. I mean,
Speaker:almost every time I will go through
the special verdict and tell them
Speaker:why they should be answering no to all
these questions about negligence and
Speaker:causation and damages. And
then basically at some point,
Speaker:usually about three quarters
of the way through, say,
Speaker:"You might see the evidence entirely
different than the way we perceive it,
Speaker:and we will respect what your decision is.
Speaker:If you believe that damages
have been established,
Speaker:that there is negligence and causation,
Speaker:then let us give you another
perspective about what the damage is,
Speaker:what reasonable damages would be. "
So I pretty much always give a number.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:I don't think there's been too many cases
that I've said that the only thing you
Speaker:could do is give a defense verdict
because I think that's really risky.
Speaker:And then there's nothing in the juror's
mind about what does that guy think it's
Speaker:worth? And so you want to have an anchor
and you want it to be realistic at that
Speaker:point because you're going
up against somebody like you,
Speaker:you want to make the jury believe that
there are two sides to that story and
Speaker:they should hear them both.
Speaker:I'm glad I haven't had to try
a case against you because
those Pearly Whites are
Speaker:awfully dangerous with juries, as we
all know. Chris has a phenomenal career.
Speaker:Any parting words to our audience, Chris,
of wisdom for young trial attorneys,
Speaker:what they shouldn't do or what should
they focus on as they build their careers?
Speaker:Sure. Thanks for having me first.
Speaker:But also I would say the takeaways for
me are if you're on the defense side and
Speaker:you want to try cases, it's
really important you set
the cases up to get tried.
Speaker:And In other words, when you get close
to trial, don't change your evaluation.
Speaker:Don't say, "Oh, I need
more money," or, "Oh,
Speaker:my kids have a basketball game this
weekend and I don't want to work." You
Speaker:really do need to set the cases up and
tell your claims rep if it's an insurance
Speaker:case that what the exposure
is and don't waffle on that.
Speaker:I think you have to do
your part to get to trial.
Speaker:It's not going to be handed
to you. The other thing,
Speaker:and I'd highly recommend
this to all young lawyers,
Speaker:is make sure that you have a mentor
that is going to help you along in your
Speaker:career.
Go watch trials,
Speaker:beg people to get into chairs a second
trial or to take a witness or to do a
Speaker:mini opening. Because once you
stick your toe in the water,
Speaker:it's much easier to get in
and swim with the sharks.
Speaker:So you just got to get there by
setting the cases up for trial,
Speaker:participating in other people's trials
so you get the taste of it and you're off
Speaker:and running.
Speaker:Awesome. Wise words. Chris Beaman.
Thank you so much for being on.
Speaker:You're a great trial attorney.
Even better than that,
Speaker:you're a great human being
and a great friend of mine.
Speaker:Thank you for listening
to Verdict Academy.
Speaker:If today's insights resonated with you,
Speaker:please subscribe and
share with colleagues.
Speaker:In a world where we see each other less,
Speaker:learning from experienced trial
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