Brennan Wertz is the latest American to don the stars and stripes for the gravel discipline after overcoming rivals including Keegan Swenson Colby Simmons. In this wide ranging chat with Bobby and Jens - he talks about why he's welcoming the world tour riders to the peloton and the radical changes he predicts for the discipline in the immediate future.

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I think really just a matter of time

before teams start

2

to get more and more involved and tactics,

start to play more and more on the road.

3

Hello and welcome back

to another edition of The Odd Tandem.

4

Our guest today started off as a rower

in Northern California, became interested

5

in gravel racing and recently

became the US national gravel champion.

6

Jens Brennan Wertz, what did you think

about that talk that we had just now?

7

It was just fantastic.

8

I loved the entire gravel scene,

the adventure spirit of it,

9

and I was honored

10

to be actually able to participate

once in Unbound.

11

Back then it was still called, Dirty Kanza

and here's my story.

12

Great start.

13

It all went well until about 150-160 miles

14

into it,

all my energy levels went to zero.

15

I was like a car.

16

When you have no petrol, every red light

is just blinking and I'm like,

17

okay, I either fall apart

or I saw this tree at the horizon.

18

The only tree

I probably saw the entire day in Kansas.

19

I'm like, I'm just going to lay down

in the shade of the tree

20

and have a 15 minute power nap

and so I did.

21

So I went for a sleep in Unbound,

hopefully, our guest

22

didn't have to do that yet.

23

No, I think, without, spoiling

some of the nuggets that he dropped on us,

24

you made, a couple couple other

25

crucial mistakes with your fueling

that Brennan all square away a little bit.

26

So please sit back, relax, and enjoy

our great conversation with Brennan Wertz

27

Brennan Wertz, welcome to the Odd Tandem.

28

Thank you for having me, I appreciate it.

29

Yeah, man. I mean, we had to get you on.

30

I mean, the gravel season

is kind of winding down, but, you know,

31

you won the national championship

gravel title this year back in.

32

What was that?

I believe September in Nebraska.

33

How is life in the Stars and Stripes

treating you so far?

34

It's been good.

Yeah, it's been super good.

35

Really?

36

Still almost a little bit surreal.

37

But at the same time, yeah.

38

Loving every moment of it.

39

It's been a huge honor.

40

And I would say going into this year,

41

that was my

my biggest target for the year.

42

So, we'll probably get into this

in a bit,

43

but my preparation for the race

was far from ideal.

44

But, we did still kind of build the year

around it with that being a main target.

45

So, yeah, it feels it feels nice to be

46

at the end of the season now and look back

and feel like the year was a success.

47

And the biggest goal of all of them

was checked off.

48

So yeah, incredibly happy and honored

49

for, for me

as a foreigner, I was always, impressed

50

or surprised how Americans could design

their national champion jersey.

51

Within certain parameters.

52

Like did

the German jersey is always the same.

53

It's plain white and got the, the, you

know, the colored stripes and that's it.

54

Did you had a word to say

about your own jersey

55

or it's still in the making,

or how does it look?

56

How will it look?

57

Yeah, I would say we were in kind of with

58

more or less the kind of,

let's say standard.

59

I mean, the,

60

it's got the red stripe, red and white

stripes on sort of the lower midsection.

61

And then the top part of the shoulders

is blue with, with the white stars.

62

But they diverted a little bit.

63

My clothing sponsor, Q 65,

they kind of shifted away from

64

the normal kind

of horizontal lines and squared off,

65

and they had a bit of a chevron

on the front.

66

So it has a little bit of like a Superman

look to it.

67

But yeah, they gave me a couple options.

68

The cool thing with with gravel

is because it's not so heavily

69

regulated by the UCI, it's not, you know,

the jersey design is also not regulated,

70

like if you're racing on the road

or another UCI discipline.

71

They have quite a bit of say

in what that jersey actually looks like.

72

But for gravel, I know

you can be a little bit more abstract

73

with it and creative like Keegan's

last year was super abstract.

74

But for me,

I wanted it to look a little bit

75

more kind of recognisable,

straightforward.

76

And really.

77

Yeah, really

honor it and go kind of all out.

78

You got to go all out with the Stars

and Stripes, baby.

79

But, you know, you slipped away

from a pretty big group of hitters,

80

including the aforementioned

Keegan Swenson.

81

Talk us through that final,

because you guys all were there,

82

you know, in the last few weeks.

83

And it kind of takes that one person

to take the initiative,

84

which turned out to be you.

85

But talk us through what was going through

your mind in that final of the gravel?

86

Yeah.

87

At first we

we came through this kind of little,

88

like riverrun or like riverbed

that was really dusty and dry and rutted

89

and I was

90

already towards the back of the group

going into that, because Keegan and Colby

91

Simmons had attacked

on the final little rise going into it

92

and strung the group out.

93

I had anticipated the attack,

so I was right at the front of the group

94

so that I could kind of sat back

and not get fully distance from the group.

95

But I came into this little riverbed

section that was the final gravel section,

96

a bit on the back foot

and towards the back of the group.

97

And most of the guys in

the group were running mountain

98

bike tires, and I went for like a full on

99

speed set up.

100

I had slick tires 44mm for road

101

groupset like road gearing to buy,

basically fully optimized

102

for the last 1.5-2km of the course,

which were all pavement.

103

So we came out of the cemetery

and because of my,

104

my set up and taking a kind of

conservative lead because I didn't

105

want to crash in the last two K coming

through this little like riverbed section,

106

I had a little bit of a gap

to the guys in front.

107

So the eight or so guys that were up

the road,

108

and I came out of the cemetery

that we kind of,

109

we went through the riverbed

around the back of the cemetery.

110

That was all dirt.

111

And then we got on to the pavement

and there we had. Yeah, 2km to the finish,

112

and I saw

113

them in the distance and was just kind of

kicking myself like, shit.

114

I think I just let the group get away.

115

Like I took that too conservatively.

116

And now I might not even be able

to be a factor here in the sprint.

117

And I quickly kind of

118

started to panic and was really pushing

to come back to the group.

119

But then I sort of saw them all

looking at each other and hesitating, and

120

had sort of sensed

it was very tactical all day, very cagey,

121

lots of looking around at each other.

122

And so as I was approaching,

I realised, actually,

123

I think I'm approaching too fast

124

and I'm going to come back

and I'll slot back into the group,

125

but then it'll just be a ten person

bunch sprint.

126

And at that point I'm just almost rolling,

rolling the dice and just seeing

127

how my chances are on the sprint.

128

But I didn't have

129

I did not have very good legs that day,

so I did not trust myself

130

to really be like, okay, I couldn't

go into the sprint with full confidence,

131

like I will win this sprint.

132

I did not have that level of confidence.

133

So as I was approaching,

134

I actually eased off for a moment

because I saw somebody else was attacking.

135

And so as that other rider,

I think it was Cobe Freeburn

136

as he was attacking

and then getting brought back.

137

The group

then swelled sideways across the road.

138

Everyone was looking at each other

and that's when I came by with full speed.

139

And it was coming by from far enough

behind that they didn't.

140

No one really knew that I was there

or saw me coming with that kind of speed.

141

And I knew that if I could get around

them and I could keep the speed,

142

the differential or the, you know, the,

the delta in speed

143

was way too high where

no one would be able to get onto my wheel.

144

And then at that point

with like a km from the finish,

145

on a false flat

tailwind paved road into the finish

146

with my setup, with my strengths,

with my size, with everything, I knew that

147

it would be very,

very difficult for them to claw that back.

148

So yeah, that was kind of the

that was how it played out.

149

I, I put in a hard 10 or 15 seconds

with my head down, looked over my shoulder

150

and saw them all kind of spread

across the road looking at each other.

151

And I honestly couldn't really believe it.

152

And then just my legs were screaming.

153

Everything was screaming,

but I just put my head down.

154

Came came to the finish.

155

It was a 90 degree corner

with about 150m to go.

156

Went around the corner,

looked over my shoulder.

157

No one was there.

158

And had time to celebrate.

159

So it was pretty, pretty epic.

160

Pretty, surreal.

161

And yeah, just still,

still kind of sinking in, to be honest.

162

You know, the way you describe it,

163

it sounds like the Book of Cycling page

one tactics.

164

That's how you do it. Perfect.

165

I mean, even you know

that you had to cleverness to win this.

166

You know,

the biggest national title is just there.

167

And yet the quickness to slow down,

wait for them to neutralize each other

168

and then hit him. Absolutely. Perfect.

169

Before we go closer or further into

170

how did you get that,

your preparation and so on.

171

And we have a series of quickfire

questions.

172

Alrighty.

173

Okay.

174

So winning Unbound or Gravel Worlds,

175

what will it be?

176

That's a really hard

177

one for me, to be honest.

178

I, I don't know, I think Unbound,

I think Unbound.

179

I've just been doing Unbound for so long.

180

I've been coming back to it so many times.

181

It's kicked my butt so many times.

182

And it's such a legendary, iconic race

and it's just getting harder and harder

183

to win.

184

And the kind of, let's say, value of it

is just continuing to rise each year.

185

So yeah, I would say, I'd say Unbound.

186

What is your favorite post-race meal?

187

Pulled pork burger or spare ribs?

188

I love pulled pork.

189

Okay. Me too.

190

After a race that's pretty hard to beat.

191

Your favorite place to stay for the race?

192

The camping car.

Right at the start and finish.

193

Or a comfy hotel. But further away?

194

Probably the hotel

a little bit further away.

195

I usually like to get a decent little warm

196

up in anyway, so if I have to ride 10

or 20 K to the start line,

197

to get a little warm up

in, that's that's usually not a problem.

198

To our listeners and viewers,

199

he talked about a ten, 20km

warm up for a 200 mile race.

200

Just let that sink in,

you know, warming up for ten hours, race.

201

Okay. Last question.

202

Best country

for gravel ridng in your opinion?

203

Also a really tough one.

204

I would say some of my favorite gravel

riding that I have done.

205

I mean, I think the US,

206

the US has so much terrain

and you really have everything like

207

from the mountains in Colorado

208

to the coastal gravel here in California

to the rolling training Kansas.

209

I mean, I think I'm biased,

but I would say the US,

210

but my next favorite place or the

my favorite country I've traveled to

211

and ridden

gravel in would probably be Switzerland.

212

I've done some really, really insane

gravel riding in Switzerland,

213

and it's just incredibly beautiful

with the Alps and these narrow

214

little cow paths,

through the alpine meadows and stuff.

215

It's pretty incredible.

216

I kind of want to go back to what you said

about your setup.

217

You know, you said that, okay.

218

It was a very long race,

219

but you chose a specific set up

for those final two kilometers.

220

How much dissection of the course

and pre-riding of courses

221

do you guys do these days in order

to determine what what setup you're using?

222

Yeah, quite a lot.

223

I mean,

I think the setup is such a key factor and

224

you see that it's really people

225

are operating on a bit of a spectrum

with in regards to setup.

226

And it's shifted a lot in the last,

let's say three years

227

since I've been doing

a lot of gravel racing.

228

And I think this year

a big trend or big topic we saw a lot

229

was mountain bike tires and just going

bigger and bigger and bigger.

230

And I think like,

231

you know, we just wrapped up

racing Big Sugar there on that course.

232

Absolute no brainer.

233

Like I think those courses like Big Sugar

and Unbound that are notorious

234

for shredding tires, you really want to go

on that end of the spectrum.

235

But I also

I also wanted to take a bit of a risk,

236

and I didn't feel that the course,

nationals was so technical,

237

or the sand pits that we went through

were so treacherous that

238

I would

239

be dropped in

them just due to the nature of the course.

240

Like the course really suited me.

241

There were never any super long

big climbs.

242

It was kind of constantly rolling

and just the type of terrain

243

where you have to be on the pedals

hard all day.

244

And so I knew that

even if I did get gapped a little bit

245

in certain sand sections, that

I would most likely be able to come back.

246

And that was kind of the story of the day

was just like playing really defensive,

247

being on the back foot and all of these

different sand pits and sand sections.

248

But I knew where they were.

249

I had pre-read in a bunch of the course,

250

and it was the exact same course

as the year before where I had raced

251

almost an identical setup

and was on the podium last year as well.

252

So, the conditions were ever

so slightly different this year.

253

A bit drier in sand year, but it wasn't

so dramatically different where I felt

254

like I needed to make a huge shift in my,

in my setup going into it.

255

And I knew and I knew that, for me,

if it came down to a sprint,

256

I really wanted the setup that I had

and I kind of optimized for

257

if I make it to the last two K,

I want to have the best possible setup

258

to actually win the race

and not have the setup.

259

That's just going to get me to the last

two K at the front of the race.

260

Like it was kind of

a, you know, these one day races

261

or like a championship race,

like I like a nationals.

262

I mean last year for me

the podium was a was a good result.

263

But really at the end of the day,

264

the result that matters at these

races is the win.

265

And so I really went all in for the win

and kind of went into it with a little bit

266

more of a risky setup

than I normally would

267

for something like a Grand Prix race

or something, where there's maybe points

268

involved or where you're looking to like

a series overall or something like that.

269

So, what exactly did you use?

270

You said Slick Tires was a correct.

271

Did I hear that correctly?

272

So what pressure?

273

What size?

274

And double chainring or single chainring?

275

When you said road setup, that would

normally be a double chain, right.

276

Give us a little bit more tech info here,

please.

277

Yeah.

278

So I was riding, Rene Herse tires

and my tire sponsor,

279

and they have a 44 millimeter wide

slick tire called the Snoqualmie Pass.

280

So I was on that.

281

I think I was like 35, 36 psi.

282

And yeah, I was on, like a full Shimano

Dura-Ace groupset.

283

Yeah.

284

Actually,

I think this one know this on this bike,

285

it was a mix of like Ultegra Dura-Ace and

286

but effectively

287

chainrings

288

So it's pretty standard gearing for what

you'd see in any stage at the tour.

289

You know, on most Shimano sponsored riders

road bikes at a World Tour road race.

290

But Brennan, you're

291

six foot five, which translates

to almost two meters tall.

292

And how much do you weigh?

293

A bit over 90, like 91, 92 kilos.

294

Okay, 200 pounds.

295

So. So let's just say

a lot of these guys that you're racing

296

with are much smaller

and much lighter than you.

297

Is this an advantage or disadvantage

in gravel racing, do you think?

298

I think it depends.

299

I mean, it depends a lot on the course.

300

It's like

301

again, if you look to the world tour,

you have guys that are built like me

302

that are racing the sprint

303

classics in a full sprint calendar

or maybe doing some stuff on the track,

304

but they're never winning a stage,

a mountain top stage in the tour.

305

And that's kind of how I look at it

for myself.

306

Like, of course, like this

race at nationals is really ideal for me,

307

and my size and corresponding

power is actually an advantage.

308

But then to go to race like Leadville

or Crusher

309

in the year where it's

kind of high altitude climbing fest.

310

Yeah, there.

311

I'm struggling a little bit

more than someone like Keegan.

312

So I know last year when I finished

the race and was on the podium,

313

I called my coach pretty much immediately

after because I knew that the nationals

314

would be on the same course the next year,

315

and I told him straight away

I was like, look, man, I think, you

316

know, Keegan is somebody that I don't have

a whole lot of opportunities to beat.

317

I have tons and tons of respect for him.

318

But on this course next year,

I think I can beat him like

319

just last last year at the race,

320

he beat us not because he was necessarily

stronger or fitter.

321

He just played like a super smart tactical

move in the final.

322

But I saw like a kind of glimmer of hope

323

there that I could beat him there

on that course.

324

And that was in part due to my size

and that being an advantage

325

for me on that course.

326

So would you feel

327

happier on a 50 mile gravel race or a 200

mike gravel race or you.

328

Yeah, I don't care.

329

I just take it as it comes.

330

I like to kind of take it as it comes.

331

I mean, I've done a few UCI Gravel World

Series races this year that have been

332

a little bit shorter, but

I think the longer stuff suits me better.

333

I think the kind of Unbound type effort

these just long, all day

334

diesel grinds

that, that definitely suits me better.

335

They're kind of really,

really sharp accelerations.

336

The super punchy effort

is I'm less suited to that.

337

And I would say

I've built my training over

338

the last three years

much more in the direction of an Unbound

339

kind of effort than something

in the sort of 50 mile range.

340

It's much punchier.

341

Well, let's talk about that

training a little bit, proportionately

342

speaking, right now,

what percent of the time

343

do you actually spend on your gravel bike

and what percent

344

do you actually spend training

for gravel racing on your road bike?

345

I would say

346

maybe 40% gravel, 60% road this year.

347

Last year I did the Lifetime Grand Prix,

348

and so I had the mountain

bike kind of mixed into that as well.

349

But this year I was focusing

on, fully on a kind of drop bar calendar.

350

So, but yeah, I would say 40,

60 something, something kind of like that.

351

I do a lot of riding on the road

just because it's easier to do the efforts

352

I want to do. It opens up more terrain.

353

And where I live,

the gravel is pretty rugged. So,

354

we don't really have dirt roads

that you would drive

355

a car on, like kind of the standard gravel

that we race in most races.

356

So I have to be a little bit

more selective

357

with when I'm riding my gravel bike,

358

just because of the terrain

that's available to me and what it

359

what it kind of requires

from an effort perspective.

360

And,

361

like back in our days, on my days,

you would like,

362

let's say you have a bike race on Sunday,

then do week before the last weekend

363

if you have to time for it,

you would try to cover almost

364

the race distance to prepare your body

the Sunday before the next race Sunday.

365

If that's something

you guys do, these days.

366

And can you ride ten hours on Sunday

367

to prepare for Unbound

and then recover and race ten hours again?

368

Or is that just a stupid question?

369

No. I mean, for Unbound specifically,

I would say

370

the longest training that I would do

would still be maybe 8 or 9 hours.

371

I don't think

I would ever really get to ten hours.

372

I mean, I did this summer,

I did some bike packing, and I did,

373

I think, two days that were around

ten hours, but that was not specifically

374

prepping for anything.

375

That was just

376

I was kind of

377

in the middle of a big training period

and was just having some fun on my bike,

378

riding through Switzerland,

through the Alps.

379

But no, I mean, I think

380

usually this year

I've done a lot of like 4 or 5 hour rides

381

on the Wednesday before, like Wednesday

or Thursday, depending on

382

whether or not

the race is Saturday or Sunday.

383

But yeah, just a few days out

doing still a pretty solid endurance ride,

384

getting on the bike for 4 or 5 hours.

385

I found that for me

that that's worked pretty well and that I,

386

I like how that kind of leaves me

going into the, the race weekend

387

and also with the recon and stuff.

388

Like you mentioned, Bobby, it's

also you have to put the time in to see

389

as much of the course as you can, and

that really helps us inform our decisions

390

for tires and wheels and pressure

and gearing and all that kind of stuff.

391

So, that's been for me

a pretty good formula this year

392

where I've been able to do a long ride,

like usually the day or two

393

after I arrive,

you know, in a location for a race,

394

then I'll get to scope out

as much of the course as possible.

395

That way.

396

Brennan I've been, you

know, following you for a couple years,

397

but it seems like this year, you

you raced a lot more.

398

Was that just that you

you had more of a social media presence,

399

or did you feel that

400

your calendar expanded a lot more

this year than in the years past?

401

I would say this year

I did a lot more travel,

402

probably in total than I have in years

past.

403

I spent more time racing in Europe.

404

This year I think I did three trips

to Europe for races, or for race blocks.

405

And I was kind of on the move

a little bit more, but,

406

like last year,

I think I spent a little bit

407

more time focusing on the lifetime

Grand Prix events.

408

And like before Leadville,

I spent a month in the mountains of Utah

409

preparing for that

410

and doing altitude training,

and I didn't do as much of that this year.

411

I didn't have as many kind of specific

blocks of training for one key race,

412

which is something

I think for next year, I'm going to try

413

to shift a little bit

more in the direction of preparing

414

with more focus on each individual race

and doing fewer races overall.

415

But yeah, I,

I don't know the exact number of race days

416

I'll have to go back and look,

but it definitely was a lot this year.

417

It was a lot of a lot of racing.

418

And so since

419

your country is a huge, huge

420

country,

so biggest were a country in the world,

421

if you traveled from Nebraska

back home to California or

422

see all the classics or,

you know, Kansas Unbound,

423

how do you travel?

424

Like an endless road trip

with your mates in a camping car

425

and all your gear stuff

behind in a camper?

426

Or you take flights?

427

How do I have to imagine it as an outsider

to this, to the gravel world?

428

Yeah, most of it.

429

This year I've, I did with the airplane.

430

In the past,

431

the past two years, I've usually done

at least 1 or 2 big road trip blocks

432

where I've gone to Colorado

and Utah for altitude training and,

433

do it as a big road trip

and string together

434

maybe 4 to 8 weeks of racing

and training all together.

435

And that's that's a good way to do it,

436

because then I can bring more equipment,

more spare tires, more bike.

437

But I don't have any sort of

438

like big sprinter van or something

that, that a lot of guys have.

439

I just go with a normal car and

have done it like that the last two years.

440

But yeah, this year

it was more doing it with the airplane,

441

trying to optimize the flights,

442

trying to figure out like,

okay, is there an airport that's nearby

443

that I can take a direct flight to

and then and then do the drive

444

in and or get a rental car,

like always kind of figuring that out.

445

But, yeah.

446

And then especially for the stuff

over in Europe, always, you know, the

447

flying over there

448

and, you know, we've had

449

some gravel racers

on the podcast in the past, explain

450

how you just explain the multiple trips

to Europe all over the U.S..

451

How do you pay for all this?

452

Is are you are your sponsors 100%

453

footing the bill for this,

or does it kind of depend on you,

454

you know, getting some prize money,

in order to pay the bills?

455

Yeah, I would say the,

the prize money this year,

456

like I got some prize money at nationals

and and some stuff like that.

457

If you bonuses for different results

that definitely really helps.

458

But I would say I try to always

look at that as bonus and don't factor

459

that into the budget.

460

But the way it works for me

is I have, multiple sponsors

461

and they provide me

462

a kind of combination of equipment

and then also financial support,

463

and they basically pay that

in sort of a lump sum.

464

And then I'm on my own to manage it all.

465

So I'm

then booking all the flights myself,

466

booking early accommodation,

trying to be economical

467

and in all of that and find accommodation

that's a good value.

468

Or maybe if I can stay with some friends

somewhere and save some money doing that,

469

or you know, like I was explaining,

trying to find which airport to fly into,

470

maybe there's an airport

471

that's an hour further away by car,

but it's a couple hundred bucks cheaper

472

and the rental car is cheaper, you know,

kind of always looking at all of that.

473

I would say when people ask me

what my job is or like what

474

what, the day to day looks like,

I would say that's the biggest thing

475

that people overlook

is like the amount of time spent

476

just trying to optimize

for cost effectiveness

477

and looking at different flight options,

trying to find Airbnbs.

478

I mean, now, like I was booking Airbnbs

already for Unbound next year because it's

479

it books out so fast and everything's

so expensive and you have to find a good,

480

you know, a good set up.

481

So yeah, that's

that's usually how it works.

482

I manage all that myself.

483

It's definitely challenging.

484

But I've learned a ton doing it.

485

And it's it's also,

I think, a really important

486

part of the recipe for success in gravel

is you have to look at the bigger picture,

487

and you have to be able to manage

488

all of these different things

because it's not just,

489

you know, a part of a team structure

where they have a full staff

490

to take care of all of that for you,

and you just have to show up

491

fit and ready to race.

492

There's a whole lot more

to get to the actual start on.

493

So you probably already answered

at least half of my next question.

494

You are Brennan

and the Brennan, team there’s

495

no 20 guys around your 15

or even five guys around you.

496

You do it all yourself.

497

And that leads to the next question.

498

When I had the honor to do Unbound,

it was called

499

still called,

500

It was the first time where

501

basically people talk behind their hand

as if that would have been

502

an an outrageous sin he and he and her

are going to bring a team

503

to going to race together,

and it was just unheard of.

504

It was almost like a philosophical

question.

505

Teamwork or not, in gravel.

506

But since gravel is becoming

so popular, it's becoming, how do you see

507

more important to have results

and not just to be part of it?

508

I feel from an outside look,

509

you you've

you have a constant uphill, uphill battle.

510

I mean, if there's 4 or 5 team members

racing together or two guys

511

against you, that limits your chances.

512

Do you have a thought about that?

513

What is your point of view on that

and what are your tactics against it?

514

Yeah. that’s

too many questions? I'm sorry.

515

No, I think it's I, I've always kind of

516

had the approach that it's really

a matter of time before we see that.

517

And we already have started to see that.

518

I think doing more of these UCI

Gravel World Series

519

events this year over in Europe

really opened my eyes to that.

520

There's more team structures

that are already existing in Europe.

521

We saw Matej Mohoric come this year with,

I think, three

522

other teammates of his from,

the Bahrain victorious team.

523

So they were there.

524

Yeah.

525

I mean, it's it's the next logical step.

526

I think as it gets more professional

527

and more, there's more interest

and more prize money, it'll be,

528

I think, really just a matter of time

before teams start

529

to get more and more involved in tactics,

start to play more and more of a role.

530

I think right now

it's just kind of a more of a matter

531

of like the business model,

like the business model right now

532

with the way that brands and athletes

are working together

533

in the way that the sponsorship

market is set up.

534

No one brand has really taken

535

on the investment

to really build an entire team.

536

Like I've thought lots about it.

537

I've looked at the numbers, I've kind of

talked to various friends of mine.

538

I mean, I've bounced all sorts of ideas

off the wall

539

about these different team structures

and what that would look like.

540

But at the end of the day, it's

just a completely different level

541

of financial investment

to bring 5 to 10 riders to a race

542

like Unbound and pay them to ride

in support of somebody else

543

instead of riding for themselves.

544

It's just a completely different structure

that has to be built.

545

And I yeah, like I said,

I think it's a matter of time.

546

But right now

in the US at least, no one has.

547

I would say super successfully

548

like fully taken that on and built

like a fully professional gravel team yet.

549

But I do think it's something

that we'll see.

550

in the not too distant future.

551

But but that brings up

an interesting point.

552

I mean, when I got introduced to gravel in

553

I mean, just a few people took it

like uber serious.

554

But now it's been professionalised

555

almost to the point where

I can't really tell the difference between

556

professional road

racing and professional gravel racing.

557

Do you feel the same

558

and do you support that if if it is

559

getting that way?

560

I wouldn't say I have

particularly strong feelings about it.

561

I think for me, I always just try to.

562

I was fortunate

563

and was kind of already

reading a lot about it

564

and interested in it

565

sort of knew of this guy, Ted, Ted King,

who goes out and does

566

this crazy race called Dirty Kanza,

and they ride their bikes

567

through 200 miles of gravel,

like the sounds so crazy.

568

And so was always

kind of on my radar. And so,

569

I don't know,

570

I feel like I came in it

at a point where it was really

571

it still had a little bit more

of that kind of a the OG spirit of gravel.

572

So I try to,

573

I try to maintain a bit of that,

that ethos and that culture and that vibe.

574

But I also would say it's the

575

just like the team, the teams

and everything, like I just describe.

576

I think this professionalisation

is also inevitable, and it's only going

577

to keep continuing and,

I don't think it's it's something to,

578

yeah, worry about or be upset about.

579

It's just like it's what happens in sport

and it's how it how it goes

580

and how it's going.

581

And I think there's also

a completely massive

582

spectrum of the gravel experience

that anybody could have.

583

And my experience is completely different

from a lot of the other folks

584

who go to these gravel events, but I don't

I also don't think that's a bad thing.

585

Like, I can have my experience.

They can have theirs.

586

We all, are drawn to the sport

and the act of writing the gravel bike for

587

maybe

similar reasons, maybe different reasons.

588

But at the end of the day, I think we all

there is a lot of similarity

589

and a lot of people

just love the adventure.

590

Getting a little bit further

away from the cars

591

and having a really fun,

really fun time on your bike with friends.

592

I mean, at the end of the day, that's

that's still, I think, very core to it,

593

even for those of us racing at the

at the pointy end of the race.

594

So yeah, try

to hold on to a little bit of that and,

595

and also take time to enjoy

596

the other elements of gravel riding,

like bike

597

packing in this kind of adventure,

riding in these long training rides.

598

I do a lot of that stuff as well.

599

And so for me,

it's it's finding that balance.

600

Also, it seems

601

like that, now that gravel racing

is becoming more popular,

602

there's more interest to to export

or to develop it globally.

603

But do you think there's there's

a market, there's a place for gravel

604

to become popular in, I don't know, China

or France or Great Britain

605

or you think it is a little bit

like American football or,

606

you know, baseball,

like typical North American sport

607

with little bit of offspring

in some other places.

608

Or do you think it will be a global sport

like Formula one

609

or road cycling,

or it will stay in North America mostly.

610

What what's your your view on that?

611

I think it's definitely going

to become a global phenomenon.

612

And I think it already

has to a certain degree.

613

Like I said, I did quite a few of these

UCI Gravel World

614

Series races in Europe last summer

or the summer.

615

And it's really taking off in Europe.

616

There's a ton of interest,

617

and I think there's a bit of this attitude

from the US like, oh,

618

you can only race gravel

619

in the US on these big wide dirt farm

roads, and there's only gravel in the US.

620

And but I mean there's dirt roads

everywhere like everyone has dirt roads.

621

And I knew that from back in 2016,

I did an internship

622

north of Frankfurt

in the countryside in Hessen,

623

and I spent the whole summer

with a hardtail mountain bike.

624

Just riding through the forest

on all these beautiful gravel paths,

625

went bikepacking through the Black Forest

626

and experienced all this

just incredible terrain

627

and already from that point

on, I knew like, this is

628

there's this whole other world

in, in Europe with amazing gravel

629

riding and amazing terrain,

and I'm sure there's

630

countless other places

all across the world

631

where you could see

the exact same thing for.

632

And so I think it's extremely naive

to just assume that you can only ride

633

a gravel bike in Kansas,

because that's where Emporia is,

634

and that's where the sport was invented

or where it started.

635

Like, people have been riding

some form of a bicycle on a dirt road

636

all around the world for, you know,

decades, if not hundreds of years.

637

So, yeah,

I think it'll just continue to grow

638

globally and people will continue

to embrace it across the world.

639

But what is the difference between

640

gravel riding,

gravel racing in the US, in Europe?

641

You know, I've, I've done a few events

and you know, yeah, you have all you

642

big hitters actually racing.

643

But participation and pleasure

and adventure

644

seems to be the main objectives

for most people.

645

Is it the same over in Europe

or is everyone just trying to race it?

646

I would say it definitely had a little bit

more of a racier feel.

647

And most of the events

that I did in Europe.

648

But I think that's because this year,

a lot of the events that I did were,

649

this UCI World Series

where there were also

650

a lot of amateur age group riders

that were there to qualify for the World.

651

And so people

that were there for a specific purpose,

652

they were there to try to qualify,

they were there to race.

653

And whether it's the pro category

or the age group or whatever it is

654

that they're doing,

people were there more for that purpose?

655

I would say

there were still plenty of people

656

that were there just to enjoy it

and have a great day on the bike.

657

And maybe they're from the area

or they're from nearby.

658

And it seemed like a cool event to do.

659

The last year I did a couple other races

660

that were outside of that series

that weren't governed by the UCI,

661

and one of them was this race

called octopus Gravel in Switzerland.

662

And I really got a sense of

just this huge spectrum, again, of people

663

just really enjoying a beautiful day

in the Swiss Alps on their gravel bikes.

664

And it was, a timed segment race.

665

So people were pushing

hard on the specific segments,

666

but then they took the rest of the day

667

to really enjoy it

and stop at the aid stations

668

and take some nice photos

and enjoy the view.

669

And I think,

670

I think it's again, like anything,

there's a big spectrum of the experience.

671

But you can find

672

you can find all of it in Europe,

as you can find all of it in the US.

673

But I would say from my experience

on the whole, the races in Europe

674

have been a little bit

more kind of from the first

675

finisher to the last finisher,

a little bit more competitive feeling.

676

But I think that's still it's it's hard

677

to make a generalization like that

because they're, they're all so different.

678

And all these events

679

when you talk about experience

and adventure with the gravel racing

680

part of the adventure is that I believe

most or all of these events

681

are unsupported, right? There's no team

car follow.

682

I mean, just for our listeners

683

and viewers who have never heard of it,

there's no team car following.

684

So you need to prepare

and bring everything

685

you might think you need

or you might need at one point.

686

And also, how often do you train

to fix a broken chain or to fix a tire

687

or to adjust your, your brakes

because there's nobody out there.

688

You cannot just raise your arm and a team

689

car shows up or stopping at the next bike

shop.

690

It's also no option

in the middle of Kansas, right?

691

So how often do you

train these technical skills?

692

I would say

693

I don't necessarily

take time out of my day or look at it

694

as a part of my training

when I'm specifically focusing

695

on preparing for fixing punctures

or things like that.

696

I think I ride my bike enough and train

enough, and ride in pretty rugged terrain

697

purposefully

to try to push the limits of my equipment,

698

when I am training so that, yeah,

then I have an issue when I'm out training

699

and I'm by myself and instead of

just taking it slow and easy,

700

whenever I do have a puncture

and I'm training,

701

it's like, okay, let me see how fast

I can fix this just to be,

702

you know, thinking, thinking straight

and like, okay, what do I need to do?

703

What are the steps?

704

But I wouldn't say that I

705

yeah,

706

take specific

time to like, train those things.

707

But I did I spent, about a year

working as a bike mechanic

708

when I was at a college,

and I think that really helped me a lot,

709

like just kind of learning the ins

and outs of the bikes and how they work

710

and the mechanical side of it all,

and being able to build my own bikes,

711

which I normally don't do,

I do have a mechanic, here locally

712

who does a lot of the work on my bikes,

but in a pinch, when I'm traveling,

713

it is also nice to know

that I have those skills.

714

And if I do need to fix something,

that I can do it.

715

Unlike you and myself, the Jensie!

716

Correct!

we're the ones that should be doing

717

internships

in mechanic, rooms in bike shops.

718

So you mentioned the UCI Gravel Series,

719

but there's this other series

that maybe you can help me explain.

720

At the beginning of the podcast,

you mentioned that you did the Lifetime

721

Grand Prix last year

and didn't do it this year.

722

So to our viewers and listeners

that don't know, normally

723

I think this year a couple of the races

were were, were canceled or postponed.

724

But the Lifetime

Grand Prix is a series of seven races, 30

725

men and 30 women,

all competing for an equal prize list.

726

Totaling $300,000.

727

This series just finished in Big Bear,

and you were in Big Bear,

728

but you didn't partake

in the overall series.

729

So can you come in

and out of the Lifetime?

730

And then only those 30 men and women

actually compete for the overall,

731

or can you ride yourself

into that overall?

732

So it's changing a little bit

for next year.

733

They just recently announced

734

that they're changing the structure

slightly for next year.

735

But up until this point it's been

736

yeah, there's 30 or 35 riders

that they select for men.

737

And then the same for women,

at the beginning of the year in November.

738

And then those are the riders

that are in the series for the whole year.

739

And the, the races

like Unbound, Leadville,

740

Sea Otter, you know, the 6 or 7 races

they have in the series.

741

They have an elite field.

742

And in the elite field

you have those 35 time Grand Prix racers,

743

but then you also have another couple

hundred of riders

744

that aren't in the series

that are still in the elite field racing.

745

And so then at the end of the race,

they have a podium

746

for the overall, and then they also have

a Lifetime Grand Prix podium.

747

That is for

just the riders in the Grand Prix.

748

And those riders get points

based on their finish

749

amongst the 30 riders in the series.

750

And that is what counts towards

the overall

751

which, yeah, wrapped up

just last weekend, at Big Sugar.

752

But yeah, for next year, it

sounds like they're changing it slightly.

753

They're taking 22 riders to start at the

beginning of the season or in November.

754

And then there's they're leaving

three spots open

755

for wildcard riders who apply.

756

Don't get in but then still do

the first two events of the year.

757

So Sea Otter and Unbound and score well,

or I guess have good rides.

758

I don't know the criteria

759

for how they judge the wild cards,

but they leave three spots open

760

that they can, at their discretion, pick,

to bring riders into the series.

761

After Unbound.

762

So now that you mentioned a little bit,

next year, next season,

763

and that we are coming

to an end of this season, right?

764

What if Jonathan Vaughters

and EF Education

765

Easy-Post calls you up in the next week

and go, hey, you fancy a try?

766

Was asked for one year?

767

What? You then go,

oh yeah, that sounds awesome.

768

You know, become a road professional race.

769

Paris -Roubaix that would suit you. Maybe.

770

Oh, would you go now?

771

Haunt my place in life?

772

It's gravel forever for me.

773

This would be a really

774

tough one for me,

I think, because I really love gravel.

775

I love the gravel racing.

776

I love the culture,

the scene, the community.

777

All the different people

778

that I've met over the last three years

of of doing these races.

779

It's,

Yeah, it's a super cool environment.

780

You know, we have really good friendships

amongst a lot of the racers.

781

And yeah, we all race each other

super hard and want to beat each other.

782

But at the end of the day, we are all kind

of doing a similar job as individuals.

783

And so you kind of have

to help each other out whenever you can.

784

I think it's just a different, totally

different structure in the world tour.

785

But yeah, I mean, the opportunity

to race series like Paris-Roubaix would be

786

really a dream.

787

It was cool to get a little bit of a taste

of some of that terrain.

788

Just, earlier this month

789

when I was over in Belgium

for the Gravel World Championships.

790

So, yeah, I think it would be,

it would be a pretty hard, hard offer

791

to turn down,

792

to go do something like that

and have that that experience.

793

Well,

794

I did a little digging,

and I have heard about

795

your hour of power test

that you did back in the spring.

796

485W for an hour is pretty impressive,

no doubt.

797

But when you're you mentioned

798

that you did this, this test prior

and you didn't eat,

799

you don't remember eating anything,

and then this this test,

800

you actually fueled

with 130g of carbohydrates.

801

And you and I kind of first met

when we, when I was working for a company

802

called Super Sapiens.

803

When you were trying

to improve your fueling strategy.

804

But, you know, going from zero

or minimal carbohydrates

805

to this massive amount of 130g per hour

806

everybody's talking about,

you need to train your stomach.

807

You need to train your stomach.

808

What does that actually mean

for our viewers and our listeners?

809

Yeah, I

810

mean, I think that's

been one of the biggest breakthroughs in

811

elite athletics across the board

in the last couple of years

812

is this big push to go for more

and more carbohydrates per hour.

813

For me,

it's it's really just it's pretty simple.

814

Like just when I'm out training,

just trying to do as much as I can,

815

you know, making high carb bottles,

bringing gels with me on my training.

816

Sometimes if I get,

if I'm, you know, doing a longer, I'll,

817

I'll just stop somewhere and, you know,

can be a convenience store or something

818

and just really load up

and just keep trying to stay on it

819

and really pushing the stomach to get used

to taking that level of fuel while

820

also pushing

a pretty, a pretty high output.

821

But I think it's been really

a game changer for a lot of us.

822

And it's, it's

been responsible for a lot of progress.

823

Improvements.

824

You know, increases in speed, all of this.

825

I mean, I think it's so crucial for these

gravel races due to how long they are.

826

I mean, to to come

827

through a ten hour race, like, Unbound,

you really have to nail the fueling.

828

And if you get that wrong,

829

it makes for a really rough day.

830

So it's I would say

it's probably one of the most

831

key levers that we can pull

when it comes to preparing.

832

Well for these races is preparing the gut,

getting the fueling strategy dialed,

833

and having it all mapped out

well through the entire race.

834

With all the different

feed zones and everything.

835

That leads

836

me to a follow up question,

your fueling strategy.

837

But how about your hydration strategy?

838

I mean, on these long races, you have two,

maybe three rest stops.

839

We officially get water supply.

840

How many water bottles

do you bring to pick once?

841

Three of em. Four of em.

842

Do you actually drink out of a river

because you're just desperate for liquids?

843

How is that gonna work?

844

Yeah.

845

I mean, for me, that's always a challenge.

846

Like we discussed earlier,

I am a big guy.

847

I burn through fluid faster

than probably most of my competitors.

848

I I'm usually, like, at a race, like,

Unbound.

849

I'm usually riding with

850

about four liters of water,

so like a two liter hydration pack

851

and then two one liter bottles on the bike

and one second back.

852

You mean like, like a backpack?

Like a Camelbak style?

853

Oh, right. Okay. Thing.

854

And so that usually works pretty

well for a race like Unbounded Unbound.

855

It's 200 miles.

856

We have two aid stations

where we can get refuel.

857

And then there's, I think two water oasis

858

or water oases that we go through

where you can just get plain water.

859

But this year, it was pretty much just

860

I only use the two official aid stations,

861

and at those you're allowed

to have pretty much full support.

862

So you can have a full crew there

that's supporting you.

863

And it's basically a formula One pitstop.

864

You pull in, you take the hydration

pack off, you get a full new one

865

that's already filled up and mixed

with your ratio of,

866

carbohydrate mix

two fresh bottles on the bike.

867

You know, maybe

you need to pump up your tire or Luger

868

chain or whatever it is.

869

If it's muddy,

sometimes I'll have a power washer.

870

But basically, it's

just take your wrappers

871

out of your pockets and fill up

your pockets with some new gels and bars,

872

and then you know, where you go

and 20s or something like that.

873

So it's really quick in and out

and yeah, that's sort of it's

874

just each year those stops have gotten

more and more crucial.

875

You have to be really on it.

You have to be really fast.

876

This year

I think there are even a handful of guys

877

that didn't actually stop at all,

and they just took a musette bag

878

and threw the hydration pack off,

grabbed a new one as they were riding by,

879

and the speed

never even went below 30 K an hour. So,

880

yeah, it's, constantly evolving.

881

I've seen some of those videos

and you explained it perfectly.

882

It's a formula one pitstop.

883

I mean, it's

just totally coordinated and timed.

884

Not something that I ever thought

I would see

885

in the gravel world, but, it's

here to stay for sure.

886

We're getting towards the end of our time

that we have with you, but,

887

I need to ask

888

a question that I hope

you feel comfortable answering.

889

And that's.

890

Do you and other old school,

891

gravel professionals

892

approve or accept or,

like the fact that more and more world

893

tour professionals like Mathieu Van

der Poel, who won the gravel worlds

894

this year, are participating

in these races?

895

Yeah, I love it.

896

I mean, for me, I really look at it

as the more the merrier.

897

Van der Poel he's a legend.

898

Marianne Vos like who? Once

she won the women's race.

899

I mean, they're just two absolute

legends in

900

not just road

cycling or specific discipline of cycling.

901

I mean, they are legends

in the sport of cycling as a sport.

902

And, I've, I've thought about Van

der Poel a lot, and I always thought

903

I thought about him

at a lot of these races

904

and just wondered like,

what would it look like if he showed up?

905

I mean, he's proven that he's

906

incredibly dominant on a mountain bike,

on a cross bike, on a road bike.

907

I mean, really anything with two wheels.

908

He seems to be pretty incredible with

so yeah, I think it elevates

909

what everyone's doing

when when we see riders of that caliber

910

coming in

and like checking out what we're doing,

911

like, oh, hey,

there's this whole gravel scene.

912

This actually looks pretty cool

and interesting. I'm

913

going to I'm going to come and do that,

and I'm going to come check this out.

914

And I thought it was super cool

that Mohoric came and that we actually got

915

to see the the rainbow jersey

this year at Unbound Racing.

916

And I know he had quite a bit of bad luck,

and so did the rest of his teammates

917

with mechanicals and stuff.

918

But I really welcome welcome those guys.

919

I think it's super cool

that that they make the effort to come in

920

and and do the races

and check out what we're doing,

921

and it really just elevates

everything it makes us all better.

922

And I think it's cool

when when they can come over.

923

And it also brings

an additional level of media

924

attention

and fans to the to the sport as well.

925

And, you did you already had a time

926

or the patience

to think about next year, future plans.

927

What would be your dream result

for next year?

928

Your your targets? Your goals?

929

Again, after mountain biking

or stay was the gravel.

930

Yeah.

931

I'm I'm trying to figure all that out

right now.

932

This is definitely the busy two days

to think about it or all that.

933

Yeah.

934

Yeah.

935

Trying to rest quickly

and enjoy a little bit of season time.

936

But yeah, still deep into the

937

thick of planning next year

with sponsors and events and calendar.

938

And it's a incredible privilege,

to be in the position

939

and to be looking at the calendar

each year, because every year

940

there's more and more events

and they all look so exciting and so cool.

941

But yeah, it's hard to narrow

down the focus and really pick

942

which events to, to go really all in for.

943

But Unbound is definitely one

that I really want, to go for.

944

I've kind of always looked at Unbound

on more of like a five year trajectory

945

where I'm going to try to come into it

every year for five years as prepared

946

as I can.

947

And it's a race where

you can have such bad luck so easily.

948

And so I just kind of look at it

like that, like I'm trying to just show up

949

fit and ready to go for five years and,

and see what happens.

950

And, you know, maybe

951

1 or 2 of those years,

the stars will align a little bit

952

more than the others,

and maybe I can be in a position

953

to make the right

split and go for a result.

954

But yeah, Unbound is a big one.

955

I'm still trying to decide on.

956

On the Lifetime Grand Prix.

957

It was originally planning on

not applying for it.

958

If it was going to stay

the same as this year.

959

And mostly

that was for me, just due to the altitude.

960

A lot of the races are at altitude,

and so it becomes logistically quite

961

complicated to pretty much have to spend

the entire summer living at altitude.

962

But they removed two of the altitude races

963

and they kind of shifted the format

and the structure a little bit.

964

So, I would say it's it's

definitely looking more attractive to me.

965

I still have to make a final decision

on whether or not I'll apply,

966

but I'm definitely leaning towards,

towards that.

967

And yeah,

just go back for nationals, try to defend.

968

But yeah, the main thing is just to have

969

another super fun year of traveling

and racing and meeting cool people.

970

And super honored to have

a beautiful jersey to rock all year long.

971

And, so many of these super cool races.

972

Absolutely.

That's the way you got to do it.

973

Have fun out there.

974

Do your best, Brennan It's been great

speaking with you.

975

We know that you just finished

your last race.

976

Just a few days ago.

977

You have what you have heat

adaptation training to think about.

978

You have travel to think about.

979

You have gut training to think about.

980

I mean, so many things to think about.

981

And then you also have

to perform on your bicycle.

982

So we'll

we'll let you go for this evening.

983

But thank you so much for coming on

the tandem today.

984

Yeah. Thank you guys for having me.

985

Real pleasure to chat with you both.

986

Well, that's everything for this week.

987

Now remember to follow us at Odd Tandem

on TikTok,

988

Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and wherever

you get your favorite podcasts.

989

Thanks to Brennan for joining the podcast.

990

Also remember,

if you want to see the video version

991

of this podcast,

it's up on our YouTube channel right now.

992

Youtube.com/OddTandem.

993

And if you want the full,

uninterrupted version of this podcast,

994

add your name in the titles.

995

Just head to our Patreon

996

where you can sign up for $5 a month

in order to keep this podcast going.

997

That’s Patreon.com/OddTandem…

998

Thanks to our Patreon

999

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