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23 - Boss for a Day
Episode 23 • 20th September 2022 • Parts Department • Justin Brouillette & Jem Freeman
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The guys consider switching positions with the team, number sequencing in G-code, how to embrace change, and have a new Subreddit!

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HOSTS

Jem Freeman

Castlemaine, Victoria, Australia

Like Butter | Instagram | More Links


Justin Brouillette

Portland, Oregon, USA

PDX CNC | Instagram | More Links

Transcripts

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!?Shift command in sound sound engaged, sync caster link flicking clicking.

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Now.

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Good morning.

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Good morning.

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You like my transition

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That was great.

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transition?

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Supposed to wear, like be wearing something like really

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seductive after that though.

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I think just like the talkers

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I did get pretty wet on the way in, so, you know, you're lucky

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I've got clothes on it all.

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you wipe it down and it just, you see the hoodie and then the hoodie's gone.

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You just have the coveralls.

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making content already.

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Can't wait my clap first for, for once

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Let's do that.

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3, 2, 1,

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Oh,

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Hmm.

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How.

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pretty good.

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Rick he's at today.

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So just me and I'm got locked into a lot of computer work and I was like

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those days when I was just quiet and.

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Focused.

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It's like a weekend basically, but I'm still here working

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Mm, nice stays off in the shop.

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Yeah,

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there you go.

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What are you working on?

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Uh, The Shopify build thing, I can't decide on a theme, so that kind

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of like stops the whole workflow.

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There's so many options.

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I was chatting with Jay a little bit about some advice on slack and they were

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just

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like, just like, I use this one.

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Cause I like it.

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Cuz there's just so many and I have a good experience with the yeah.

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All right.

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That makes sense.

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Yeah.

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I think that's what it's about.

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Ultimately

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Yeah.

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is just committing to one that doesn't.

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Terrible

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It it, yeah, they don't look terrible.

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Like there's a couple I like, but it's interesting how

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variable the feature sets are.

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And like, what's all built in already.

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Like you're saying, like, I don't wanna customize it to death, but you can't

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start to build a page with this new 2.0 theme system saying that has all

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the cool, like blocks or whatever they call 'em without choosing a theme.

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So , it's kind of a chicken and egg thing.

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Sometimes

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Did you look at flex

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I I look at it, but also I just don't wanna, like, I don't wanna

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have the same one as you guys, huh?

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Yes, we'll be judged harshly.

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If we have the same

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people

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everyone will notice.

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I mean, we've told them now, so

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it's over.

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Just everybody that listens to this has the same Shopify theme.

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Burn it, burn it down.

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Shouldn't shouldn't have told us.

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I have a little surprise top of the top of the list here.

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I created a subreddit for the podcast,

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insert cricket sample.

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I don't have that one yet.

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Have this

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I don't That was what you needed at the start.

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As I revealed my

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we'll put that in later.

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soggy self.

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Cut that

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in

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about it.

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Dang it.

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That would've been perfect.

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I'm gonna sound either old or I don't know what what's a subreddit.

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So well, we're, it's just the kind of like place in Reddit where there's like

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a topic that you can then subscribe to and make posts and comments.

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I'll send you a link.

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Is red.

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Is, is Reddit a place where you hang out?

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Eh, it used to a lot more.

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I don't know.

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I, I guess, I don't know, it's like zeitgeist use, but it used

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to be like the viral place of the internet for a long time.

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Like you would, you know, find stuff there and also things would get published.

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You know, people would want to get like on the front page.

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Cause it's just millions of people seeing that.

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And

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Okay.

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I'm not trying to go viral here, but just, I know other podcasts

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that have a subreddit and it's a place that's not, well, like I said,

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you can consider it social media.

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I consider it more like a forum where you can communicate

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about things in specific and.

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Maybe not able to use it, but it took all of 10 minutes to set up.

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So I'm just gonna, gonna leave it in the show notes.

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but I did completely skip your how are you doing segment?

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And because I was excited about the sub ire, it

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I didn't understand.

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How are you doing?

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I'm okay.

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Yeah.

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Been better?

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Yeah, No, I'm alright.

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I think little, little bit down, I think generally,

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Oh, man.

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Yeah.

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Anything you wanna talk about on the podcast?

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sure.

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I think it's dunno.

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Look, everything's fine generally in the scheme of greater scheme of things.

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But I think I am struggling a little bit with the identity shift of no

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longer being that guy who makes stuff.

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I think the it's been long enough now that I've been off the tools that

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I'm really sort of yeah, struggling a little bit with that transition in

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terms of feeling useful and valuable.

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And also it's just, you know, it's been 15 years of kind of hustling

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and creating things, using tools that has formed my identity.

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Who I think I am.

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So like, Shifting away from that in the current business trajectory

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and model has been a little bit difficult, but that's to be expected.

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Yeah

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yeah,

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I guess my first question is, does it have to be an absolute thing?

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I mean, you, you have choice in these things, so I'm sure you can find

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it's probably just more, I guess, if I had had to kind of read between

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the lines, is that your primary?

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Role and tasks doesn't supply you with the same kind of like what you

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liked the challenge and the kind of like experience of ally doing

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things to create things rather than being on the other side of that.

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yeah.

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There's no really, there's not really any reason why I'm not still able to get

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up early and come in and tinker on the pencil sharpener as I was and feel sort

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of validated in that R and D process.

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But I think there's just a bit of a, sort of a compounding effect

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going on at the moment where I'm not getting up early enough.

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And so I don't do it.

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And then I feel crap about the fact that I haven't done it

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Yeah.

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No, I know that feeling

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on itself a little bit.

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And then, so then I continue to not do it.

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Um, dunno a bit too.

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Unpack there.

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I'm also still reading this less is more book

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Oh, yeah,

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about de-growth and it's, it's heavy going.

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Like, I think it's a really important book to read, but bloody hell.

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It's making me question a lot of things about being in business.

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yeah,

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I'm feeling up and inspired, I see it as you know, I see great

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opportunity and potential to make change and do something important.

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But if I'm not in that sort of bouncy, upstate, it can just be very very

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sobering and depressing as well.

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So, yeah,

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yeah.

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That's interesting.

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Yeah.

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No, I mean, I feel for that, like, I've been there.

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I mean, it's part of why I chose to get away from.

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The job shop work was, I just kind of felt myself sliding into this, like, is this

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what I'm gonna do for the next 20 years?

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Because the longer I felt we were reliant on that, I was never my

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intention in the first place.

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And like, I just didn't.

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I mean, unfortunately, probably the business was never big enough that like,

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was a whole team of people surrounding that thing being supported, like there,

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you know, it could have kept growing.

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And I think the more that kept growing the harder it was to pull away from it.

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Yeah.

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You know, I was talking with some friends about business stuff the other

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day, and it was thinking like, you know, we're all kind of not great at

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business because we choose things so emotionally, you know, I don't want to

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do this other thing that was making us money per and that's basically like the

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only reason, but maybe I should have, maybe that was the best business choice.

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And it's really hard to take that subjectivity out of like, , you

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know, is this what I should be doing versus is that the right?

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Like, if this business is like its own, it's like a child you're trying

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to care for, but you're like, don't really have to care that much for it.

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, you know, like you don't have to always pick the best things for it.

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Yeah,

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Yeah, it's hard.

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I dunno.

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that kind of reminds me of did you on the bomb, John and John were talking

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about Saunders surprised me outta nowhere saying that he's been thinking

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about and not a, not against the idea of hiring a CEO, which was just.

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I mean, like when I think of C and C business people,

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like he's like the CEO to me,

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yeah.

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But I get it.

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I get that.

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I get that.

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And I re read into that, however, incorrectly that could potentially

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be a, a similar response of wanting to stay on the tools

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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He said that

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wanting to be, not wanting to be sucked away into just business strategic stuff.

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think he said specifically, you know, I would've never thought I'd say this, but

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you know, I think of myself as pretty good at business, but I've moved away

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from, and now I'm starting to think I'm.

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Potentially better at machining than I am a business now.

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And I definitely like the machining better and I totally get that.

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It's like every day that I'm stuck just sitting at this computer, it's like, I

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run away at 5:00 PM and like, I gotta finish this part before I go home.

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Like, I just it's like desire to like, I mean, we both came through kind of

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a similar school and you kind of get into that based on your interest in the

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first place where it's so much driven around what you're, I don't know.

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I'm sure you made a lot of physical prototypes, I imagine in school.

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Terrible ones.

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Yeah, you, a lot of hand making things and even my wife she was

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really good at model making and she always like, she sews a lot now.

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And that's like one of the ways she sticks with that, but I don't know.

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I, I can't imagine that going away for me anyway.

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Yeah, no, exactly.

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I made terrible models at school.

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we didn't really, I always joke that we didn't really learn how to make

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anything in, industrial design other than like crappy spray painted MDF models,

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which I used to painted my dorm room.

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No, that's yeah, it's really interesting that point about

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replacing yourself with the CEO.

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Like at the moment, I feel like I really see the value in growing

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a team and like, Like it's been really rewarding, delegating

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big chunks of my role to people.

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Over the last year or so, and seeing them grow, it's been fantastic having

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John replaced me as lead machinist a year or so ago, and just seeing him

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like really flourish in that role and smash it and do really well.

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So like there's great value in doing that and whilst come currently sort

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of really missing being that person.

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So kind of holding both of those things in the one hand of like fantastic to

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see someone develop and grow yeah.

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Whilst also kind of being jealous of the job they get to do.

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And so I think I've done that more and more you know, also with some of the sort

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of production management and also the, some of the business stuff with Sarah.

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So yeah, I think, you know, I was chatting to my coach a little bit about it the

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other day and he was, you know, he was saying, you know, this is just one of

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the transitions you're gonna have to go through and get comfortable with.

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And everything's changing all the time and it's just getting

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used to it and embracing change.

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I don't know,

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I like

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my

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either that or you, or you do the knee jerk reaction and go back

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to like, being a solo operator

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all fired.

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I'm running all the tools.

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goodbye.

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Had, I've had friends do that in their businesses.

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Like they've grown and grown and grown, and then they've got to a point.

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I remember I won't name names, but someone I studied with grew quite

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a successful business, probably around our size in terms of staff.

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yeah,

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And he came back from an overseas trip one day and he was just like, I just wanna go

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back to being the guy on the machine and he shut it all down and closed the, and

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like, and now he is just tinkering away.

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It's just, just him.

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I've had that discussion.

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Multiple friends.

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And, and, you know, I feel like after we moved into this shop,

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things changed for me in that the discussion with my wife and how the

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risk of buying a CNC put when our garage at home and then moved to, you

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know, eventually to this small sublease of a sublease, basically open space

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for a year was like, well, within a year, if it all goes to craft, we can

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afford to pay that, you know, crappy lease and we'll move everything back.

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But now it's like, it's probably bankruptcy, you know, is the only

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out, you know, at this point.

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And That feeling goes away.

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Like, there's definitely, I could find ways to, to run it down, but I

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definitely in our conversation about less versus more, I still have myself

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thinking like, we need a bigger shop, you know, I need a bigger space.

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I want to add more machines, but you know, they're not all even busy at this point.

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So it's like a, there's a kind of a disconnect there for me, for sure.

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Of like my desires versus reality of business.

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So

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Yep.

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I, I got one idea for how you could

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Yeah,

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your hands dirty still every once in a while, as you weekly or

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maybe monthly or something, you, you trade with somebody for a.

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They can be boss for a day and you get to do their job and it would help

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kind of like see the inefficiencies potentially that they're dealing with.

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And then they would potentially get an experience of like what

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it's like to make some decisions.

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I don't know how you give that kind

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of, I don't know.

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I like it.

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Oh, that was a heavy start.

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It's good.

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Cheer.

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Always.

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I've got an update on last week's QC situation on the pencil sharper.

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So after recording last week, I jumped out there and fiddled around.

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So it was, it was what's the expression T R what does that stand for

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So yeah.

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Total ill

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indicated.

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yeah.

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Run out

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it was a, it was a run out issue just on the tops spindles.

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One of them must have taken a bump

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in the last week.

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thankfully John got in on Monday morning was like, oh cool.

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Okay.

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I know which order I machine.

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These boxes are parts in.

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I can go back through and try and work out where the point was.

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And he did work out where the point was, and it wasn't that long ago.

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So thankfully we only lost, I don't know, 10 or 15% of the parts

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Oh yeah.

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from that week, which wasn't too bad.

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It could have been a lot worse.

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And it was a good kind of reminder of how we should be

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curing things and checking stuff.

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And he had that's the thing it wasn't that he hadn't been Q saying

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he was doing it pretty frequently.

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Double checking stuff was so it had happened relatively

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recently and snuck through.

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And then I'd run some legacy code, which had slightly more extreme offsets.

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And so suddenly with the legacy code, it became really apparent that there was

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something wrong, whereas his parts were sort of still just within tolerance.

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And so you hadn't noticed towards the end of the week.

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I would imagine.

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I mean, I know very little about finding ways to do thread checks, but I think

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you can like measure what the inner and the outer threads, but I, I don't

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know how you make that very accurate.

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Like it's not like a go no go gauge other than like your twist test, which would

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still work, but like justing the threads, I guess, but then how you do it on the ID?

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I.

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Yeah.

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I know.

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the plan is to set up some sort of twist test, maybe with a talk wrench.

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So that it's not dependent on, you know, za rock climb, he's

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got very strong grip strength.

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It would be unfair for the

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It's the best product ever.

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the tolerance to be based on his grip strength.

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So yeah, I think get our hands on a little talk wrench and set up

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a little jig so he can just like, boom, boom, drop it in, give it

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be good.

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Yep.

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Passes.

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And then that can be checked, you know, every morning or

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few times a week or something.

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That kind of makes me think.

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Have you watched, you've probably similar to me.

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Like I think I watched this forever go, but it's the first

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shop tour first or second shop tour Saunders does with J Pearson.

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And he is like showing him how they assemble parts and it like now looks

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pretty dated and Pearson's shop is like so different because he is moved

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like twice, but he's just really cool to see like the guy, you know, Pearson

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just has this like clock like brain, but just everything's perfectly set

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up and the processes are perfect.

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And.

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and there's just some really interesting stuff.

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So I'll put a link in, and one of the things he had, they had made a,

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I don't even know the right words, but it's basically like a tour wrench

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style, like thing that they twist in the bottom of their pallets with.

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So instead of trying to align this like little uh, insert it like magnetizes

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to it and you just put it in and twist until it stops and then it's

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perfectly set up and it made me think of your like torque wrench scenario.

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Mm that's cool.

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Yeah.

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I wonder if JP Pearson's like staying, I, I don't, you know, as he developed

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that sort of lean shop those systems, like I wonder whether he was.

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In there late at night after the employees gone, like tinkering with all the

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stations, like making instructions or whether he's the more, the personality

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who's capable of doing that kind of as part of the job, I, I would find it really

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hard to sort of focus in on that level of detail as part of our working day

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what's, what's interesting.

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I mean, that kind of parlays into another discussion I wanted to bring up, but I've

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recently been looking at their website and they have like very few products.

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Like it is, it is very, I mean, there's accessories to those things

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and they make a lot of subassembly parts, I think, but I just kind of like

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impressed as well as jealous of how simplified and good their products are.

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It's just like, we hit, we sell three types of things, that's it?

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You know, like, and it's such a great business that I was surprised I had,

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like, in my head, I was like, oh, they've probably expanded more things.

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You know, , it's like three things.

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Yeah, that's awesome.

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I had a moment last night, actually cooking dinner of what if I just

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went in, in the morning and just cold off 90% of the product line.

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so much stuff on our website and a lot of it sells in very low volume.

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How important is

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Yeah, I that's an interesting

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drawing people in?

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does it serve a purpose just to sort of capture attention from

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lots of different people and then pull them into our top sellers?

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Or is it completely superfluous?

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I don't know.

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No.

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kind of like why I've never turned off my desk thing.

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I don't know that it ever had any attention.

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I had a couple good runs of like social media, like probably read it, honestly,

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posts that bring people to your site.

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Right.

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And it's like, if that just goes away and it's a black hole.

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It's probably an SEO hit.

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So, you know, what is the version of that?

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It's like an R P version like this product's dead,

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but check something else out.

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Yeah, I have the same thought.

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Kind of want someone like a really confident marketing person to come

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in and be like, what are you doing?

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Selling this bed?

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Get rid of it.

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how many units do you sell one a month?

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Cool.

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Kill it.

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someone with external perspective who can just whippers into shape.

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I mean, one would, you know, like if it was detracting from your ability to

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make and sell your best products yeah.

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You get rid of it,

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Yeah.

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That's where the gray line is.

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Like it doesn't

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Yeah.

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But it also is like, there's like

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files are developed.

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I've noticed that too.

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It's like, when you have to go back to make something that's full, you

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know, we haven't done it in a while.

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You either make mistakes on making it again,

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Yep.

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nobody can remember and you haven't documented it.

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Well things are, you know, it's like this, it's almost like

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this story of lean over again.

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It's like, you haven't done it enough that you haven't created good enough

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processes that it's I don't know.

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There's definitely something there oh, there's another bomb conversation.

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That was really good.

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And then I think Saunders posed the idea of like, so let's say you got hit by a car

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and we're in a, coma for six months and they hired me to come run your business.

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What would we change?

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What would I have to make those changes?

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It was like really eye opening of What if, you know, like what if some, you know,

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what would I change in your business?

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If I had to come, I'd have to pick up an accent.

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First of all.

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it's a fun, fun experiment.

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I like that.

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Yeah.

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Maybe next week we can report back on the one change we'd make in each

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Ooh.

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What's your one change?

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Counting up machine numbers is interesting.

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And the only person I really heard, ever talk about is John GSMO who's

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somehow figured out how to do it in whatever control he, he has, where

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it like serializes his, tools and

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he's doing it in G code somehow.

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magic.

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magic.

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Yeah.

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got, we've got this project machining lockers, and each door is gonna have a

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unique number on it cuz they're lockers.

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And it just occurred to me last night that we shouldn't be modeling

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these locker banks with numbers, one to 80 on them infusion.

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We should just make single dedicated setup file.

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Cuz we get machine the doors from the back anyway with the hinge cups and stuff.

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So then John will be putting them back on the machine one at a time to

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quickly engrave a number in the front.

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So my brainwave was like, cool.

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We just need a single setup file to do that double sided operation.

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And within that, you've just got a text box that you can quickly edit

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the text, repost the code, edit the text, repost the code basically, as

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you're standing there by the machine.

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But I was just thinking about, yeah, he's wondering curiosity, whether

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you've ever come across any way to either using parameters infusion or

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sort of at the G code level to count up.

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Closest I got was grasshopper labeling things in modeling model making in school.

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And it would like bind a piece of text curve to the part.

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And when it got nested, it would be with it.

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And then you could engrave that or cut it.

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But I don't think that's a very easy problem to solve, but, but

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I also haven't tried to, so I'm sure somebody's figured it out.

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And I'm grant Grims might tell you how he did it.

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I don't, it's probably very specific to his machines though.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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grass up is great at stuff like that.

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I wanted to be able to like we talked about this, we had somebody on staff

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that did a little bit of program.

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Like not cam programmings did that too, but it was more like computer programming.

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And we had talked about ways to make like, yeah, to generate little G code

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files for the router specifically of like, let's cut a rectangle or like

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it was, you know, kind of like a dropdown creator of like type in sizes.

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And you could cut out a drag knife, a box, you know, like without needing

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to set up cam because that was such a messy process for that specific thing.

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And honestly, that's just one of the things that fusion

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sucks at is it's not fast.

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Like it's fast.

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If you wanna go from design to manufacturing with a

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file, that's pretty quick.

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But like, if you just wanna like quickly dump out a file, I

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would probably choose like V car.

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Cause it's like way faster.

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yeah, I I've, I feel like that at points too.

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And then I sort of catch myself thinking, I haven't done the hours

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infusion that I've done in rhino

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Yeah.

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and, you know, I haven't bothered to set up a good that workflow infusion ever.

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And yet every time I reinstall rhino, I spend an hour carefully

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setting up all these shortcuts and mouse mapping and stuff, just

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so I can work really effectively.

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I think.

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I think fusion can, yes.

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On surface value, it is slower,

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but I think it can be pretty quick if you set up good systems,

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yeah.

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if files would open in a timely manner, that irritates me.

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Oh my God.

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I mean, the program it's basically always open because if I have to open

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it again, seven minutes later yeah.

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me of the, how I learned rhino.

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Cuz we did a semester of rhino at school and I hated, I

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thought, what is this nonsense?

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That's not solid works.

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What a

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waste of time.

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are you using before that?

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Yeah, I was, we were all trained in solid works and we're pretty addicted to it.

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So then we're introduced to this like curvy lines and surfaces stuff.

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I'm like, this is nonsense.

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I then got a job.

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But after school.

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Working for a sculptor who did a lot of inflatable sculptures he had rhino.

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And so I got this job and had to work in rhino cuz that was his native system for

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what he'd dabbled in before and sort of that's where I got good at it, but like

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it's fantastic for making big inflatable sculptures with parts that have to be

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unwrapped and rolled out and cut on a plotter and then glued back together.

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Again, they all have to be labeled and like fantastic for doing

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UN unreal is so cool.

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Like take a surface and flatten it out.

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Yeah.

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It's, it's definitely like a, maker's I just say the Swiss army knife,

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like there's so many ways you can use it that it's like, if somebody's

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thought of a way to do something,

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Mm.

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you know, in 3d CAD of some sort, you can probably do it in rhino.

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Like , somebody's done it.

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You can paste a script in somewhere and it will like do it for you.

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Yeah.

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Such a deep tool set.

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Laura's been doing some um, she's putting in some proposals for some

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new public artworks at the moment.

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And so she's been trying to animate, it's another sort of L E D fiber optic concept.

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And she's been trying to like animate within rhino, these sort of point clouds

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of a possum, walking through a space, but like all animated in point clouds.

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And like we've, we've spent a few evenings on the couch, both in rhino,

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trying to like muck around, to work out the best workflow to make these simple

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sort of key frame animations, go fun.

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Yeah.

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That's wow.

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Fusion,

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fusion,

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fusion.

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kind of a endless problem that never

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goes away.

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That's a good question.

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How do you fix messy fusion models?

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I don't.

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I was gonna say that

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and start

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I don't

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I really, yeah, no, I really don't.

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Yeah, kinda do the same.

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like in particular, this model of this fork came from somebody

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modeled it and it was pretty rough.

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And then we

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quickly, I kind of like adapted it when we were making the first set

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of I'm pointing to the tool fork on

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yeah.

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ATC for the router.

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And I adapted it for this version, which is basically like subtracting

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and making small modifications.

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Bit of cheeky, direct modeling.

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and now I'm trying to go back and model.

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Tweak it just a little bit more.

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And I, at this place of like, I either change it now or it's forever

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a disaster and I'm trying to think of like, what's the fastest way to like,

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take a part that it's not like super complicated, but it's got like, you

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know, curvy services that swept.

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And like some of it's parametric, like this stuff in the back is parametric,

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but none of the front is but the first, the only thing I can think of is to

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potentially this sun's kind of crazy, but like insert it into a new file and

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kind of like trace it, but do it Pally,

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Trace it.

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But not project off it,

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not project off of it.

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Yeah, no.

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Yeah.

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I would like draw with it one of the stupid problems of fusion is

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you can't have two windows open.

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So like.

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I can't measure stuff off of one onto the other, I guess I

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could a rhino open with it as a

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can't you just measure or if it was me and I can't quite tell how complex

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that part is, but I would measure all the features and write it as a

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list of parameters in a clean file.

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So every feature is just a parameter in the list

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Yeah.

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model and remodel it.

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But

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It was gonna definitely pull some use the export import CSV file thing

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there's a really nice little application add in called parameter IO, I think.

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And it just lets you basically dump out CSV files of your parameters and then you

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can import 'em back into another file.

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Not really.

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That's

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cool.

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I have to check that.

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Might save some time setting up the same parameters over and over again.

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yes.

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Cool.

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You just gave me, I don't know why I've never done this before.

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God that's really stupid.

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I have like a template rhino file.

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That's like on our website for people to like upload files to us.

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So the layers are there and stuff, but then I was just thinking like, why the

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hell have I never done that for fusion?

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Like start with a file.

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That's like, I don't know what you'd say, like plywood design or something.

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And so it has like length with thickness

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data rabbit, and they're all there.

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And you can change 'em if you want to.

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Why haven't I done that?

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I'd save a minute each time, but kind that, that up so much.

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I did that and I find fusions file management.

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So clunky that I don't bother opening the template folder to

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go and find that file every time

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again.

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It's just about the systems I've built and being a bit sloppy.

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Um, but

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And the search is like basically useless.

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useless.

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So don't get me started.

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I love the next one.

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I'm not gonna talk you out of buying a a pear palette.

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you're not gonna

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No way.

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come

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on.

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Be my accountability, buddy.

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I want one of this and I don't even have a machine to put it on.

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well, you probably could put it on your router.

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Yeah.

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I don't know.

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It's definitely, I mean, it's like one of those weird things where

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like, it's like how I learned fusion was I was watching Saunders videos

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before I needed to use fusion.

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So then I was like, oh, I could design in that.

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And then, oh, I have a CNC.

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Now I could use this fusion for that.

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And I was like, I was learning these things before I needed them.

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And so then I've been watching these, companies, Saunders and

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Grims Mo and Pearson, and like those pallet changers look cool.

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I don't needed that.

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And now it's like, well kind of want one of those, cuz I have

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the right tools for it now.

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And then they're doing a sale currently for, they didn't go to IMTS.

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And so instead they're doing 15% off.

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I'm sure by the time this is out, the sale will be over.

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But I put the link in there in case you're interested in the code.

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Oh, it's it's such a nice website.

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are you like, you're gonna get one now I have to get a

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pallet system for the router.

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Have you come across those videos on TikTok of that?

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Irish actress reacting to the, the wood chopping guy.

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yeah.

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yeah.

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I just felt like her as I opened the Pro Pallet system, I just kind of melted

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and wanted to scream into my pillow.

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oh God.

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Yeah.

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it's

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Just so

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delicious.

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clean.

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The only criticism I have is I don't like that.

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It's two separate sites that their like, marketing is separate from there and

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you can barely tell, but it's like the navigation changes and stuff like that.

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And I'm going through the same problem of like, I'm gonna

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combine my, all my websites back again, once I move the Shopify.

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But how do you make it, not this disaster of like two different navigations

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and not that I think theirs is, but.

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Do you know what system Pearson's website's built?

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I don't, but there's a website called built with.com and

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you put in the URL and it

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creates an error I wanna say it was like magenta.

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Cause I tend to look at this stuff.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, the website's great.

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I mean, all of their, like it's like whoever he is hired or outsources video

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content making too is like very good.

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On point.

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All right.

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That's enough swinging over Pearson.

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So you are definitely getting one of those good check.

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Thanks for talking me out of it.

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No, there's so freaking sweet.

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Like, it's kind of a lusty tool thing, but I mean, I had considered it, but the

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price seemed, it still is a, you know, it's a lot when you don't need it, need,

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need it, you know, for like efficiency.

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I'm not doing that much, but I mean, I'm designing pallets that don't go on that

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currently go on a faster change system.

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So it's.

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Is that just a stupid I'm wasting my time and, and effort there.

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So I emailed them today and asked a couple questions, cuz like, basically I wanna,

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I wanna put a pallet on this larger than what they re or what they sell already.

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And I was just curious whether or not that's just a terrible idea.

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But they're pretty great.

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Pretty fast it's so, so genius to So genius the way that like

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you pull it up and it uses air pressure to like create a vacuum

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Super cool.

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speaking of websites

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it's

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WordPress

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by the

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way.

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Bit.

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eh, yeah.

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More like sales and just general business strategy of.

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I've probably said a few times that we've just, I've been rethinking all

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of my choices about pricing and like strategy, where I feel like when, I

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mean, as of yesterday I had this thought of like, when I started Portland CNC

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in 2017, there was like very little competition for the odd jobs of

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like the harder CNC routing things.

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And so it was kind of easygoing to, to win jobs.

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And maybe my prices were lower turnaround times were maybe faster material

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was the, you know, optimal price.

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So there's all these things kind of going well, maybe for everybody,

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but we just had that one niche.

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And for whatever reason, it's like very, very low like

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inquiries for the last few months.

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Part of that, you know, I've raised rates because of.

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But I think, you know, over the years, like we've gotten better at certain

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things and our value is there, you know, in a lot of regard, but then also like

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in the last six months I raised the rates because like inflation was outta

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control and everything was costing more.

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But then, you know, in the last few weeks I've just been like, man, I don't know.

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I think I gotta do something here because we're just not winning jobs for cost

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reasons or, you know, half of that is sometimes just the material is also crazy

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expensive and T altogether, it makes it either non-competitive potentially

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with other people or altogether, it's just not a good price for the

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customer to continue their project.

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So, yeah, just second, guessing everything.

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My choices are the fast, I guess.

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Yeah, totally.

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I mean, when you go to your website, it's very evident that you do contract C and C.

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But your, I remember like when we started recording this and some of

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the people on my team were like, who's Justin, what does Justin do?

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And like, it sort of became apparent that they might have only seen you on Instagram

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or they were just looking you up on Instagram for the first time and I think

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the, the way you present the brand on.

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Instagram is quite, you know, playful and it's same to me.

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It's like, whatever you are interested in at the moment, typically, yes.

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You've done a push with your product more recently, but like prior to that

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was kind of a bit more sort of ad hoc and just whatever you were sort of interested

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in at the time.

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And you've got that great educational sort of YouTube purpose as well.

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So I think there's maybe it's about what you put out there too,

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in terms of what you get back.

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Hmm.

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there wasn't a sense from those people on my team who were discovering for

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the first time that there was no clarity, I suppose, of like what service

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I see.

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From that Instagram face, at least, you know,

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Oh

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different on your website, but yeah.

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In terms of what you're putting out on Instagram at the time,

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does that make sense?

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Yeah.

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no, for

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sure.

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I guess I've so my history of starting Portland CNC through maybe today,

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which it's definitely grown and changed via where we get inquiries from, but

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it's almost, I mean, for the longest time, it's like 90% from Google.

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Like people finding

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a search and then, you know, over time, let's say Instagram has grown and maybe

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a little bit of YouTube and we'll get a few people from those sources, but.

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Yeah, I could definitely, I mean, I've definitely been talking mostly

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about like dust boots and things that we're trying to obviously promote

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or talk about that seem important, but I guess maybe this is wrong.

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Maybe I should think about it differently, but I don't think of

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Instagram as a place where we're gonna grow a local business from, I guess.

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Yeah.

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do you feel that differently?

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Yeah, I think I feel differently about that.

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I think I've primed it very anecdotally, very effective

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Hmm.

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Interesting.

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local leads.

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For, for both of work, like retail and you know

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Yeah, for sure.

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I think cuz it, it taps.

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Yeah.

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Whether they're direct leads or whether it's sort of that word of

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mouth of like, oh, who do I know?

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Who could do something like that?

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Oh yeah.

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I've seen that guy on Instagram.

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Yeah.

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that makes stuff or has those machines, why don't you talk to them?

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So it's not necessarily that the lead is coming because they've seen a video

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it's like, you know, word of mouth is so powerful,

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but

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definitely.

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I think.

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I think Instagram definitely taps into that too.

Speaker:

kind of a weird complaint in that.

Speaker:

I definitely intentionally moved away from doing a lot of job

Speaker:

shop work for so many months.

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And so that there's some of that, like, let's say regret, or I don't even know

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if it's regret, just second guessing of like how stupid was that, you know, to

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go with this idea of making products As our primary effort for a while, which

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has turned into like, I'm still stoked.

Speaker:

I think there's a, huge potential still with different products we're

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working on, but it also is just really tough to when you don't sell as much

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as you used to make in job shop work.

Speaker:

It's a rough transition.

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So still in that phase, it's definitely turning, we sold, I feel like now that

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the dust boots are out there, they're through most, probably your videos, as

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well as other people, you know, seeing it and seeing that it's available now,

Speaker:

or it's picking up, I think in terms of sales and like it's, people are

Speaker:

curious to try it with other types of machines too, which is interesting.

Speaker:

We've had a multicam in the states here, somebody bought one, an, a X,

Speaker:

Y, Z bunch of people with Lagunas really wanna try it, but I'm pretty

Speaker:

convinced it probably wouldn't work just based on the way their ATC works.

Speaker:

But anyway,

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Is anyone taking you up on the test fit

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uh, it's kind of like people have done it without choosing

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the test fit guarantee button.

Speaker:

They're like, it's not compatible, but I'm pretty sure it'll work.

Speaker:

And I'm like, sometimes I'll follow up.

Speaker:

Like, Hey, I wanna make sure that, you know, just basically

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reaching out, like, I'm curious how you think this is gonna work.

Speaker:

And if it does, I'd love to know about it.

Speaker:

So we can like confirm it for other people.

Speaker:

And,

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um, so yeah, it's interesting for sure.

Speaker:

Yeah.

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Following ups, a powerful thing,

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

neither of us are doing the kind of volume where it's not impossible to

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follow up with every single customer.

Speaker:

So you can get, so much out of that, both in terms of ongoing

Speaker:

sort of support from that customer.

Speaker:

But also just that simple thing of like, direct feedback.

Speaker:

How did you go?

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What were the instructions like?

Speaker:

Could you follow the instructions?

Speaker:

Like,

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Do you do any type of like post, other than like requesting reviews or something?

Speaker:

Do you do any type of post, either post job or post product delivery,

Speaker:

like feedback request or something?

Speaker:

We don't have anything set up for product sales at the moment.

Speaker:

we've kind of talked about it a lot and we don't know the best.

Speaker:

We're not comfortable in terms of the best way to push that out.

Speaker:

We don't want something that's sort of pushy, like leave us a review.

Speaker:

Now that you've got your thing, we want it to be sort of more helpful than that.

Speaker:

And we haven't come up with the right recipe, but in terms of

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custom work, we do a post job, follow up with every single custom

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job.

Speaker:

Wow.

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And it's just sub five minute call of like, how did you go?

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You're happy with everything, you know, and often with custom jobs that

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kind of just happens organically.

Speaker:

Hmm

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But we do try and force ourselves to follow up on everyone and just

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be like, did it arrive as expected?

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Did it go together?

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Okay.

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Like be happy with it.

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do you mean custom product design or custom?

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Like you just make parts for them off of like a file they provide.

Speaker:

We do very little of that sort of work.

Speaker:

But anything that's quoted

Speaker:

is

Speaker:

I

Speaker:

see.

Speaker:

I see.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

So this, yeah.

Speaker:

If it's not a direct sale on Shopify, then it's some sort of custom quote, whether

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that's custom product or CNC, cap parts or

Speaker:

Mm-hmm

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join or whatever.

Speaker:

yeah.

Speaker:

I I just happened to, I was kind of looking back as you were talking about my

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Instagram and I was like, just staring at it as you were talking a little bit there.

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And I was like, what do you mean this isn't obvious what we do.

Speaker:

no, but that's yeah, I'm not saying it should post more contract scenes.

Speaker:

oh, that baby pants image.

Speaker:

It's fantastic.

Speaker:

No, for the record, I think it's fantastic that you're focusing on product.

Speaker:

but it's yeah, it's hard to know where to put your energy too.

Speaker:

It's like, it's good to have that balance of work and

Speaker:

hard to know how far down the rabbit hole you should push.

Speaker:

mm-hmm well, I mean, the very, very like simple, I don't know if I've talked

Speaker:

about this kind of very publicly, but the very simple comparison that's easy.

Speaker:

And maybe a lot of people that listen to this have similar business

Speaker:

scenarios is if we do a $500 custom job, as you say, like job shop job,

Speaker:

like everything has to go, right.

Speaker:

Typically for us to make profit on that because of overhead, because of the

Speaker:

time it takes to set that job up and communicated and all those things, the

Speaker:

overhead, just five hundred's the minimum we really do because of those reasons.

Speaker:

And if we sell a dust booth, that's $500, like that amount of time has already

Speaker:

been it's now being amortized, right?

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All that design effort, all that stuff is amortized into.

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Now we just theoretically keep.

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Making the profit, rather than the profit, you know, having

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to be constructed every time.

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The labor that is there's assembly obviously, but it's more fixed.

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Everything's fixed and unless something goes drastically

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wrong, it's just so much more.

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It's like every time we sell one, it feels like I just did a $500 job shop

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job, but it took me five seconds.

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Exactly.

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Yeah, yeah,

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It's just so nice as an experience and feels like you're

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doing the right thing anyway.

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Oh, absolutely.

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And that's, yeah.

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That's why we're, we've been chasing that product percentage for years.

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Like we've, it's always been the smaller fraction of our work and

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we've for years and years, we've been trying to it the majority

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Yeah.

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failing.

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And, and part of the reason we're failing is cuz we continue to hang on

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to the old safety net of custom work.

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we've had a, an inbox that's been overflowing with inquiries the beginning.

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So it's very hard to like cut off that, that safety net and say right.

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Product.

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It is let's go.

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Yeah.

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I . I know you're

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Yeah.

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well, we should probably wrap things

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up, but my quicker recommendation is that article in the prepared this week, which

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features a, a lovely photo of your work.

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I haven't read it yet, but they

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contacted us.

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It's about Baltic Birch.

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Which I'm interested to read, but they contacted us about using some photo of

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Alch and I sent 'em a few and they picked one and very nice of them to use it.

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Yeah.

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Are you in the prepared slack channel?

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No.

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I know people that I actually don't read it religiously.

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It'll come up every once in a while read something.

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But I know a lot of people really like it.

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Hm.

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Mm-hmm and I suppose my recommendation is from my friend, Kyle it's for like

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a book club, but with links not a read, because I don't read very much is my

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friend Kyle sent this to me, another friend I just subtitled it enough.

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This guy, Kevin Kavanaugh did a TEDx Portland talk.

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It was like 2018.

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It's quite a while ago.

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It was just a good conversation of his experience with losing a lot during the

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recession and how, how he came back from it and how he changed his business and to

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make things more equitable and help people through daily efforts of his work, He's

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trying to do it more as like a every day.

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We do good things kind of effort, I think is maybe I would summarize

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Okay, cool.

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I'll check it out.

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just pretty

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sounds on topic.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It does sound like something you'd like, we both, like, there's never enough CNCS.

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Never.

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Okay.

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Till next time

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You okay.

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I said next time

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No.

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And I said, are you okay?

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Yeah.

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Is this a trick

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Yeah.

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I was very stressed out earlier in the week, but then we pushed

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back our, home cabinet scenario.

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We were like rushing to finish our cabinet install so that they could

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come and measure for countertops.

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And then we realized after Monday that we were nowhere close to it being ready.

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And so I'm much less stressed out now.

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now it's just normal stress.

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man.

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Did the crickets button where the hell's the crickets.

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It's not crickets.

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That's all I got or, this is how you end a show.

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Right?

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Just mashing buttons, mashing buttons until it stops.

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Okay.

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I don't know how to stop this.

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Bye.

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Good chat.

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Just get all those sound bites.

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Sweet.

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