Why is it so difficult to chat with family and friends about causes you care about?

Jamie Windust is a an author, content creator and Contributing Editor at GAY TIMES. They made headlines in 2018 for calling out the staff of Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald for "Misogyny, homophobia, transphobia everywhere", and in 2019 for petitioning the UK Parliament for gender-neutral passport options. In 2020, they published their book, ‘In Their Shoes: Navigating Non-Binary Life’ and continues to write for publications such as Metro UK, The Independent and GAY TIMES to compassionately share LGBTQ+ stories with the world.

Fehinti Balogun is an actor, creator, and activist. He has worked in theatre, film and television, with recent performances including Dune, I May Destroy You, ITV's Viewpoint, Netflix's The Bastard Son & The Devil Himself and Juliet Naked. Alongside his acting career, he delivers talks on climate change aimed at more rounded inclusion in the climate conversation.

In the sixth episode of season 3, Confessions of a Climate Activist, Clover sits down with Jamie Windust and Fehinti Balogun to explore how to ruin Christmas! First up, Clover and Jamie discuss the expectations placed on individuals to be and oftentimes represent someone they aren’t. Then, Clover speaks with Fehinti about the difficulties of waking up to the climate crisis while navigating our day-to-day lives. To wrap up, both Jamie and Fehinti spill their juiciest climate confessions.

“Take your time finding out who you are first and not existing as someone who you think other people want you to be.” - Jamie Windust

"Climate change isn’t the problem. Climate change is a symptom of the problem. Climate change wouldn’t exist if it didn’t make someone money.” - Fehinti Balogun

Follow Jamie:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamie_windust/

Follow Fehinti:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fehintibalogun/

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Clover Hogan:

Hi my name’s Clover and you’re listening to the Force of Nature podcast. This season, we’re diving into “Confessions of a Climate Activist”.

What comes to mind when you picture an activist? Is it a person glued to the road? Someone with a reusable coffee cup? Maybe, a teenager holding a microphone? Whatever it is, I want you to let it go — because I’m about to invite you behind the scenes. You’re going to hear from activists on the stuff that doesn’t get talked about. Burnout; getting cancelled; the ethical compromises of making money; imposter syndrome, and even what it’s like to alienate friends and family.

See this as your how-to guide when understanding and navigating the nuances of activism and barriers to action in the climate space. Over the season, we hope to find some answers: namely, what activism can look like when it's more open, honest and human. Make sure to stick around to the end of each episode when our guests spill their climate confessions. After all, we don't need a hundred perfect activists - but millions of imperfect ones.

Clover Hogan:

Last week on Confessions of a Climate Activist, we met Sophia Kianni and dived into the scrutiny faced by activists — especially on social media. We also talked about identity, and drawing a line between our work, and our personal lives. I’ve been vegetarian for over a decade, yet not brought it up at my family’s dinner table for years. When we’re together, meat is ordered from the menu in hushed tones with pointed glances toward me. I’m quick to beat everyone to the “rabbit food” punchline, and smile good-naturedly when a bowl of limp lettuce arrives. I’m sent a daily deluge of climate articles from one family member; and climate conspiracy films by another. When I travelled to see a family member for the first time in 2 years, they asked me if I wasn’t a hypocrite for calling myself an Activist while continuing to fly. I’m also not sure when I became the Climate Confessional among friends — first to be told about the new iPhone, the lack of recycling bins, how they “relapsed” during Veganuary. I’d much rather talk about literally anything else, so compliment an outfit; only to elicit another confession of which fast fashion shop they purchased it from. Sometimes I’ve made up my own climate confessions to erase the guilty expressions from their faces. Today, we’re talking about navigating personal dynamics within activism: from losing friends over ideological differences, to difficult dinner table conversations with family. Before we dive into our interview, I want to hear from our Force of Nature community about how they deal with these challenges. This is what they said…

Community member 1:

Difficult conversations are bound to happen with family and friends and I've definitely experienced this. Behaviour change is always a bit hard to discuss because it becomes a slight attack on someone's way of living. One of the trickiest conversations I have is around diet. It can be really disheartening to experience those conversations with families and friends, especially when you feel like you're not making any progress and especially if you're the only one doing it. It's quite easy to see yourself as the outsider, but the key is to find a way to talk about it in a non-combative way. The key is convincing people.

Community member 2:

A lot of older people I try and talk to about it, including family, just don't take it very seriously and often roll their eyes when I try to talk about the latest demonstration I've been on or campaign I've been a part of. So tiring. The more you learn about how corrupt and unjust the people at the top are, it increasingly feels more like you can't do much to help. But together, I think we can.

Clover Hogan:

I really relate to this pressure to inform and influence the people in our lives — but also how this can complicate our relationships. When we polled our community, 96% of them said that talking about issues they cared about had affected their personal relationships. Many expressed feeling sad, confused, disappointed, frustrated and alienated after these difficult conversations. No one wants to be that caricature of the annoying, preachy activist — but when we’re so passionate about these issues, and when they feel so urgent, it can feel really difficult to toe this line. To explore this with me, I’ve invited my friend Jamie Windust onto the show. I’ll let Jamie introduce themselves.

Jamie Windust:

So I am Jamie Windust. I am a writer, author and editor. And I specialize in telling LGBTQ plus stories through my written work, through video, through social media.

Clover Hogan:

And Jamie, I'd love to know, would you consider yourself an activist? Like, is that a term that you use personally?

Jamie Windsut:

I found it a really interesting. idea and almost synopsis for this episode when I was reading through it because I really like to look back on that word activist in my trajectory and my life because it was never something that I called myself. It was something that, and in many ways like a lot of things in society or a lot of social constructs almost, it was something that was kind of placed upon me as here is someone saying things that other people may not have heard they are an activist. and then I kind of quickly round with it and just kind of embodied it without knowing really what it meant for a long time and then I went through a period of kind of dismissing it you know and saying actually no I'm not so no I've never I would never say I am and definitely nowadays I would not.

Clover Hogan:

Was there a definitive time where you decided like no this word does not represent like who I am or what I do?

Jamie Windust:

Clover Hogan:

And Jamie, you've spoken online. as someone in the public eye about the negative sides of social media and not just like criticism, but like outright trolling, which from what I've seen online is like most often held toward the trans community. It's like next level, the kind of like hate and just the fact that it's constantly somehow up for public debate, like the right of... rights of the trans community and the LGBT community at large. How have you navigated some of that being someone who does have a platform today?

Jamie Windust:

Yeah, good question. I think that it's something that I came across recently, actually, and the wonderful writer Sean Fay shared a few months ago about this idea of digital self-harm. Knowing that you may receive negative comments or that your community may receive them at large, but still... of being sucked into this vortex of wanting to look. And that is where I think even up until now, recently, as in like two or three weeks ago, I took a step back from Twitter for a bit, which I do kind of occasionally just because there was a lot of quite specific commentary on a piece of film that I'd done a few years ago. And that had resurfaced and people were kind of attacking that. And I think there's a real in me who know what people are saying. And you know, I'm sure you're aware of this as well in your work, social media for a lot of people just kind of becomes an inadvertent job that they then have as like a, you're suddenly a content creator because you have a message. And so that makes it hard because you want people to join in what you're doing and support what you're doing and that urgency, but you also need to be able to look after yourself. So yeah, it's been really strict. that's the only way it can work. It's a tough one as well, I think. One thing that I did think about recently with the, when I received the trolling on Twitter is there was like loads of people who had seen this video. A fair few people were commenting, but like, you know, this person had shared a video and it received like, you know, a hundred thousand or whatever views. Since when in the time have people been openly able to know that like hundreds of thousands of people don't like? That's just not a thing that generations prior have known.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah. And I think it's kind of what you're alluding to as well is like, the moment you are kind of like outspoken or you're given a platform, it's like suddenly there is license for people to just like pile on. It's like, okay, well, you know, you're up for grabs now so I can say whatever and like not, yeah, consider that there's... possibly a human being on the other side, like reading every comment. And I think to that point, what I find really hard is to like, kind of, yeah, reflecting what you were saying about, like having those moments of kind of looking around you and being like, are these the people? For me, like those comments on Twitter, the ones that like really hurt are the ones that are kind of like echoes of what people in my real life have said to me at one point or another, because... they can kind of like validate them and they can make them more real and they can also like unearth a lot from my own personal experience in activism. I probably like haven't processed because it's really hard but I guess to that I'd love to hear you know from your own personal experience does any of that criticism that you've received online ever like echo what people in your immediate life have said to you?

Jamie Windust:

Yeah, I think the biggest one that I get a lot is that from outside of my inner circle that I have had at times from my inner circle is this idea of like being too much or being like too self-centered and I don't mean that in like that I'm a really like a really selfish person but in terms of like for example the way that I looked I used to get a lot of attention for potentially people saying like you draw so much attention to yourself what do you expect like you're going to get this negative reaction because of your identity and I did used to receive that from uh you know certain people in my inner circle or certain members of my family who would kind of essentially victim blame and kind of say like you know you do if you're going exist, then you're going to receive a negative reaction and that's your fault, which they're essentially saying is you could change if you wanted to but you don't because you love the attention. That was really tough and that is something I still get nowadays. If someone you don't know is saying something to you that actually people who do know you have said the same thing, it's kind of like oh maybe people are right.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah I absolutely agree, I know that was like a big turning point. for me with like certain family members. I have a sister who's a climate change conspiracy theorist and a dad who makes some pretty big digs about like my activism, my work. I remember it was a really big turning point where I was like, oh, I don't actually have an obligation to like continue placing myself in situations or inserting myself into conversations that are just like. going to be really hurtful. And I think something as well that I've observed, at least for myself, is like, once activism kind of becomes your identity, and then you're known as like, for me, like the climate change person, then you can get roped into things you're like, I don't even want to have this conversation. Like, I don't even want to participate in this exchange. But it's like, you know, there's the quiet nod to something or the underhand comment. And just like being able to sit above that, or like not even put myself in that situation the first place has been so, so positive for my mental health and just my sustainability being able to do this work. I guess on that more positive note, is there a piece of advice that you would give to your younger self? Sorry, this is a horribly cliched question, but is there a piece of advice you'd give yourself knowing what you know now about the spaces you've shown up in and how you identify as an actor, how you do this work? What's a message that you might impart to... to your younger self or to any young person who's wanting to engage in this space.

Jamie Windust:

But what I see from young people is there's so much fire and there's so much passion. And I think what's made me so excited about the young people specifically at the moment is this shift in how vocal they're being about climate change and how actually that has kind of started as quite almost like an epicenter and it is flowing out into lots of other social realms. And I think what I always say to these young people when they ask for advice or they say when parents ask for advice for the young people, or again, as you say, what would I say to myself is to take your time finding out who you are first and not existing as someone who you think other people want you to be. For example, like I never got to come out at school because people presumed that I was gay and so that moment was kind of taken away from me. I didn't get to have ownership over my identity. I just kind of became something that other people thought I was. And then I ended up kind of fulfilling that stereotype. The same with my activist work in the early days, you know, when I was 18, 19, I became what other people wanted me to be because I thought that that's what I needed to be at the time. But I didn't actually get a lot of opportunity to process who I was or what my identity was. So I think. Although identity is always ever-changing, it's really important that you come to terms with who you are and process who you are in your own terms for you first and then use it if you want to shine a light on the rest of your community.

Clover Hogan:

Oh, that was such good advice. I would have bottled that up and listened to it every day. Very final question. It's a bit of a silly one. Taking a leaf out of the book of our friends at the Climate Curious podcast, we're inviting people to share their climate confessions. In the interest of normalizing imperfect activism, my most recent climate confession would probably be the number of Ubers that I've been taking around the city. I've been justifying them in my head because I'm like, oh, I get agoraphobic sometimes and I don't like sitting on the bus or taking public transport, but it's pure convenience and self-interest that has me ordering that Uber. Do you have a climate confession you would like to share?

Jamie Windust:

I would say it's very similar, but I have a car. I didn't know that I'd love this, but I just love driving. If I'm doing something in Manchester or... the north of England and they're like, oh, well, um, do you want to get the train? Oh, outright refuse. I'm like, no, I will, I will be driving. I'd love it. I, I will spend like a day in the car. Yeah, that would be mine.

Clover Hogan:

Oh, well, thank you so much, Jamie. This has been such a wonderful conversation. I'm truly very grateful for your time.

Clover Hogan:

I really appreciated Jamie’s honesty about the journey they’ve been on; and how in the early days of their activism, they struggled with the expectations placed on them to be and also represent someone they weren’t. Another theme that came up within our community is this sort of cognitive dissonance, of waking up to the climate crisis while navigating our day-to-day lives. I’ve invited my friend Fehinti Balogun to explore this with me. Here he is.

Fehinti Balogun:

Hi, my name is Fehinti Balogun. I train as an actor, so I do a lot of that. I do a lot of public speaking as much as possible in public and in private, that being like businesses or back rooms of places because we live in a climate emergency and it doesn't feel like that unless you're keyed into it. So I talk a lot about climate, I talk a lot about social justice, racial justice, and other sort of intersectional themes amongst the climate thing. And yeah, so it's like writing, making theater, speaking, acting, kind of making sure that everything is connected, trying to. That's my shtick, I think.

Clover Hogan:

How did you first come into the climate world?

Fehinti Balogun:

Clover Hogan:

And I think it's really interesting this take on like having this conversation with your mum and then really listening to and understanding her arguments and then thoughtfully responding to them. But I'd love to hear in some of the other conversations you had with people who weren't in your life and who weren't necessarily like in the quote unquote, you know, climate space or in extinction rebellion, like how did you find navigating some of those conversations, whether they were with like colleagues and peers or friends and family? What was that experience like as you were simultaneously learning about this problem and also trying to communicate on it?

Fehinti Balogun:

I had very different phases of my life and I think it happens when you... when you get into any type of activism, you've got the, I know there's injustice that exists and you should care about it too. Why don't you care? Ugh. And then it's just like, oh fuck, like, I'm annoyed at the world, I'm annoyed at everything, I'm annoyed at myself, because no one cares as deeply and as passionately about the things that I care about, right? You move a little further on and you're like, okay, they got shit they need to worry about. And actually, maybe what I care about. isn't what other people care about, maybe there's a good reason for that. And that's part of what my mum was saying, my mum was talking about being black in the UK and what that means and what she didn't realise she was talking about, she was like when you come over to this country you assimilate and you don't want to stand out, you don't want to be kicked out, you don't want to be ostracised, you don't want to get things taken away from you because often and too easily they are. Very simple, we know about the systemic racism that exists. We know about it sitting in our subconscious, by the way we think about people, things like it's there, it's there. When you grow up with that, you sort of include into it a bit more. When your mom has it and she teaches you, she's clued into it way, way more. So there's all this other stuff and I'm like, yeah, but that's not important. Of course it is, Fehinti, actually. Of course it is because climate change isn't the problem. That's the thing that changed for me. Climate change isn't the problem. Climate change is a symptom of the problem. Climate change wouldn't exist if it didn't make someone money. In the same way, a lot of insecurities about how we look wouldn't exist if it didn't make certain beauty companies and this and that money, right? If everyone was just okay with themselves and it was about actually feeling good and health, be a very different economy on that messaging, especially when you go to the sexist tropes and all of this, and then the patriarchal trap, it goes on and on and on and on and on and on because it's useful for the way system exists at the minute. So if you factor in all those things and all of a sudden, my big issue, right, that overtakes everything, becomes actually a smaller issue, becomes the same size as everybody else's issues. It then becomes about talking to people where they're at, speaking to them about the things that they are really, really worried about, right? And linking that to the thing that I'm worried about because it's just the same issue and actually we're the fighting the same people. And when you travel along that journey, it's not about you're wrong or I'm right. or you're getting it wrong or you're not doing it right, well you don't care, it's about here's where we need to go. I'm just gonna push you there a little bit. I always say when you're talking to family, family's the hardest one. Family's the hardest one, they're too close. Too close, I don't like intimacy. I love it, sort of. But with family, it's like a shoreline to a rock face. You're trying to make a beach. and it takes a long time to just erode that rock face and make the beach right. And with family that's what you have to do because they are so close. These people are your people and sometimes don't see the things you do. So you just have to chip away bit by bit and bit by bit and bit by bit and you also have to understand how much energy do I have.

Clover Hogan:

That was amazing. There is so much I'm like, I wish I had a pen and paper so I could have taken notes on that. But the first thing I wanted to acknowledge yeah, just what you were sharing around like the depth of kind of grief and I think that journey that you described is one that a lot of kind of activists are just like people who care also go on particularly from this moment of like, oh my god, this thing is huge It's overwhelming, like all of the fear and anxiety and grief and sadness that can kind of like bubble up. But then this realization that like, oh, when I'm talking about climate anxiety, I'm not just talking about like, you know, fear of the quote unquote climate crisis or inaction in the face of it. Like my body, my soul is like responding to the culture that I'm in. And it's a culture that makes it fundamentally difficult to do the right or quite responsible thing. And I loved as well what you were speaking to in terms of like how you try to like communicate all of that which is like going on inside of you. And I know for me similarly, like it started with the, okay, well, what are the things I can do in my personal life? How do I instantly do something, right? Out of this kind of like place of desperation. And then it was like literally guilt tripping everyone in my personal life around me being like. Don't you care? I know you're an empathetic person. Why don't you care about these things? Why don't you participate in the stuff that's important? And then getting to that point of like, oh wow, I'm inconsistent. We're all inconsistent. But also again, we're all part of this system and the goal isn't to point the finger at the person next to me. The goal is to actually examine the systems and the structures that we're part of and invite people to participate starting with where they're at, exactly as you said. because it also comes from such a place of privilege to be like, yeah, here's another thing for you to care about. And for example, so many people in this country being like, I'm just focused on keeping the lights on and making sure I can put food on the table, right? And send my kids to school. And that's why we can't allow the conversation to get too caught up in the clouds. It has to be like, how do we connect people to this problem as something that affects them day to day, but also to frame it as like, a way to make everyone's lives better as well. I guess my second to last question for you, Fehinti, would just be given this journey you've been on, falling into the well of despair, not feeling particularly held in those feelings, and then coming to a point where you're using your voice, you're inspiring other people, you're bringing other people into the movement, how sustainable does your activism feel? at this point? Like how do you feel about where you're at now looking back at where you've come from?

Fehinti Balogun:

Clover Hogan:

Don't we all, we all have a long way to go. Um, okay, final question. This is a speed round. Uh, we're inviting everyone to In the interest of normalizing imperfect activism and inconsistent activism and kind of like poking fun at individual actions as well, we're inviting everyone to share a climate confession. So one way in which they find themselves being very human and inconsistent and hypocritical, as you can imagine, I've had to literally do this 10 times. So I've exposed every single one of my inconsistencies. There are so many. I'm gonna share one that was actually just inspired by what you were saying around rest and kind of burnout. And that is so often like the messages that I put out on social media could not be further from like the truth of how I practice my activism. I think a very clear cut example of that is like rest. Like I remember in the same week, I put out this like very vulnerable post about like rest is resistance and like. Having gotten burnt out and like learned my lesson and like let's not recreate the systems of capitalism, like simultaneously working like 14 hour days and getting like so ill eventually with like a bloody chest infection, like it was horrible. But I do this all the time and it definitely makes me feel like a hypocrite. because I'm like, oh, but just like everyone else can do it. Like the same rules don't apply to me. So that is my climate confession. Fehinti, do you have any climate confessions you would like to share?

Fehinti Balogun:

How much time you got? Got so many climate confessions, fucking hell. Yeah, overworking, massive, massive. I fight to find my community. I'm really productive on my own. And sometimes I'm inconsistent in the way that I can give. I say yes to everything. And that often means that I get very little done in terms of that. I'm an actor, so I travel. Lot I try and request Trains but planes come in often buying avocados bro By another cut you buying avocados mad They're fucking delicious. I know I know you think I don't know I know I Know I don't do it all the time. I do it though and Everything's surrounded in plastic If I want salad, it's plastic. If I want frigging like apples, it's in plastic. It's apples, it's in plastic. Lemons, plastic. Oil, oil for cooking, plastic. So I'm surrounded by islands of plastic. Planets of plastic sponsored by me, which is infuriating. What else? I have loads of Apple products. I have an Apple phone. I'm on my Mac. There's an iPad over there. They're all secondhand. Let me not lie, but some Someone somewhere did not get paid a lot of money to make them even though you know it came for like GameStop or whatever Yeah, I mean the list kind of goes on What's the worst one though? What's one that'd be like, oh, that's not good? I think generally I am quite good. But... Yeah, it's probably how individualistic I actually am Like massively like I really like I really tried to be in community but For most of the time not for most part my ones and I think I've adapted to work in that way As the most productive version of myself, and it's very hard for me to give in to and I asked a question about what is community and I know it's the answer. I asked the question because I'm trying to find the answer for myself because it's really hard. It's really hard. It's really, really hard. That's my confession. I feel naked. There you go, well done. Well done.

Clover Hogan:

You've outdone yourself. That was amazing. That was every climate confession. That was essentially what I've had to do for every episode. Whereas each time I'm scraping the barrel, because I'm in denial about my own inconsistency and you were just stream of consciousness, let it go. You know you're deep when you know the social environmental impact of an avocado. You're like, I am supporting the cartel in South America. Like this is terrible. I'm single-handedly creating the drought. But yeah, avocados are, they're so good. Yeah, it's so true, it's so true. I do all of the things that you mentioned as well. So if that makes you feel any better. Fehinti, thank you so much. This has been such wonderful conversation.

Clover Hogan:

I love the fact that Fehinti actually recorded a conversation with his mum, which created enough space for him to gain perspective on the conversation, and really hear where she was coming from. Something that resonated from both Jamie and Fehinti was how important it is to them to seek that acceptance and understanding from their families — but also realising that there isn’t an obligation for them to start conversations, or put themselves in situations, which might be actively harmful. It’s this fine line between showing up as your whole self, with your thoughts and cares and values, while also safeguarding your wellbeing. So, if you’re an activist, and you’re worried another Christmas dinner is about to be ruined by needing to defend your values and your work, remember to be kind to yourself. It’s important to engage with people close to you, including your family, but it shouldn’t come at the expense of your mental health. On that theme, Fehinti also spoke to his climate anxiety — and the challenge of not only coming to terms with these feelings, but struggling to find a community who shared them. I want to explore this further, so for next week’s episode I’ve invited my friend Mitzi Jonelle Tan, a trailblazing activist from the Philippines and all-round beautiful human being, to share her own climate emotions. In the meantime, if you enjoyed today’s episode and are thirsty for more Force of Nature content, you might want to check out episode 12 from Season 2 — education. When you’ve listened, drop us a comment and let us know what you think.

Clover Hogan:

How did today's episode make you feel? Let us know by heading over to Force of Nature's instagram, @forceofnature.xyz, and dropping us a comment. If you’re between the ages of 16 and 35, you can join Force of Nature’s growing online community and access our free programmes and trainings, which help you develop the skills to take action. You can also find resources on our website.If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast... well, you know what to do. This show was brought to you by Force of Nature and OneFinePlay. From OneFinePlay, Kasra Firouzyar is the editor and producer. Connor Foley is the producer and researcher. From Force of Nature, I’m your host, Clover Hogan, and this season would not be possible without Meg Stillwell and Isabel Flynn.