Organisations have a huge role to play in developing leaders but not all organisations do this well. In this episode we discuss what support leaders need, how organisations identify future leaders and what leadership development programmes need to consider:

• 05:22  – talk about leadership early
• 10:28 – organisational mindset shift
• 14:30 – floundering out of the funnel
• 17:31 – closing the development gap
• 23:54 – creating a coaching culture
• 29:09 – How to... influence leadership development

As always, we share our top takeaways including the benefits of a coaching approach to leadership development, personalising development for individuals and challenging your own expectations of new leaders.

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Oh, I love it when you do that face.

I love it now that some people will see you do that face as well, Lee.

It's like, yeah, this is right up Lee Street.

I'm just rolling up my sleeves here,

Hello and welcome to episode two of series three, how have we got

here already, of how to take the lead.

I am here, uh, as you can see, I say as you can see, because you might

well be watching this on YouTube.

How exciting, um, that this series is, uh, not only, uh, being shared via

podcast on your listening platform of choice, um, but is also on YouTube.

So I'm here with the lovely Lee.

Lee, how are you?

I can wave now.

I'm well, thank you.

I'm really good.

It's been a busy week.

I'm looking forward to a g and t that it's a bit too early

for g and t now, but who knows.

Now we're on YouTube.

Maybe we bring back the old Inster.

Oh, stop.

If we bring back the gin recommendations, that would be amazing.

Let us know in the comments if you want that

Yeah.

If, if you wanna start and bring back the g and t movement for how to take

the lead, yeah, please do let us know.

Um, uh, , so just, that's just really made me chuckle.

Um, I'm, I also now have a request of you, Lee.

Um, given that th that this is being filmed and will be on youTube is to

please remind me if I ever have another Jack Duckworth moment with my glasses?

Um,

Niche reference

Yeah, very niche reference.

You can go back and find the episode that we are referring to on the podcast.

Um, uh, yeah.

So I'd have to be aware of what I look like as well as what I sound like, as

well as what I'm saying, but trials and tribulations of leadership eh?

know it kind of flies in the face of the fact that we go

like, just show up as you, and there's us putting our lipstick on.

So, oh, I can't, I couldn't possibly go on looking

like that, i'll frighten people.

Um, Um, and then I felt sorry for my poor team who do sometimes have to see me on

video all day long without my lipstick on.

So, you know, I probably need to stop.

Yeah.

Being my more , authentic self.

So, um, here we are.

Um, welcome to How to Take the Lead you can now, uh, watch along

on YouTube if you'd like to.

If you, uh, would like to do that, we would love it if you would,

uh, share it, leave a comment.

Um, and the same applies to listening, uh, on your platform of choice to the

podcast as well, because if you just share this with one other person,

you are helping us with our movement, uh, in creating the modern leader,

um, which would be just brilliant.

We're also on the socials, so you can find us on Instagram and Twitter.

And again, we would love to hear your feedback.

Uh, do connect with us, uh, tell us what you think and what you'd

like us to cover, uh, to help you on your leadership journey.

So, uh, I think that's probably all of the intro, uh, spiel I need to give

to make sure that you are showing up where we are showing up and vice versa.

It feels like when you go to a conference now, doesn't it?

You know, the exits are here and here the, we haven't got a planned alarm.

Um, so if you do hear one, please evacuate the building.

I mean, I would say if you need a comfort break,

we're all adults and just go.

But I would be disappointed if you did that Lee, then I would be sat here

on my own So if you need a comfort break, you're just gonna have to wait.

Okay, . So let's get into, uh, what we are planning to talk about in this

episode uh, how to take the lead.

Um, and it's something that has come up for me in numerous different

conversations over the years.

I would probably say so, not just recently, but over a period of time,

um, around what organizations can do to support the development of their leaders.

It's something that I often hear quite a lot of moans and niggles about.

Um, it's something that some places seem to get really right.

Some places seem to get really wrong.

Um, and there also feels like there are a lot of organizations that are just

sitting somewhere in the middle of that spectrum, kind of just doing enough

maybe to make leaders feel valued to help develop a potential pipeline of, uh,

future leaders for their organization.

Um, so I really wanted to just, uh, have that conversation with you today, Lee, and

get some of your views, uh, views on that and where I wanted to start, given that

we definitely both claim to be leaders in our respective fields and in potentially

previous roles we've had in, in your situation, um, and in my current role.

Um, but I just sort of wondered if we could reflect a little bit on how we got

here , uh, from, we don't have to go into all of that that would be a really long

episodebut the point of view of, what sort of leadership conversations did you ever

have, if any, early on in your career?

Because we have found ourselves, for whatever reason, I would like to think

through hard work and aspiration, um, in these leadership positions in our careers.

But like, when did we talk about this sort of stuff and who talked about

it with us when we were, we were much earlier on in our career journeys.

Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it, cuz I, I.

I don't, I don't recall any specific conversations.

Certainly not in my more junior days if I put it that way.

I, I can recall a couple of conversations when I became more senior, um, but

not anything in, in, as I was kind of coming up the ranks, there's two

conversations that, that stick in my mind.

One was, Telling me actually that I needed to move into a more operational role

if I wanted to progress in my career.

So it was kind of saying, oh, your chosen profession isn't

taken seriously enough and

Uh, well, let's not get on that soapbox Lee, cuz that

could be a whole other episode.

And the other one was with a really supportive CEO who

recognized what I could offer.

Um, and I suppose actively then had that discussion with me about, well, let's

get you a coach to work on the things you perhaps don't feel as comfortable with.

Um, put me on a, a, a leadership, a system leadership course.

So that was expanding my horizon and my network a bit more.

And it was, of course, they'd been on themselves.

Um, so actually both of these conversations were with CEOs, so

it's interesting the different approach of, of two different CEOs.

I'm giving you the finger

Yeah, I know.

And sorry to all the viewers slash listeners who, uh,

just seen Lee flip the bird,

So, yeah, it's, it's an interesting one that, that I, I, I genuinely, maybe

someone in my past will, will listen to this and go, hang on a minute,

what about this thing that happened?

But I can't, I can't remember it if I did.

and, and I think that's interesting, isn't it?

You say, maybe someone in my, you know, who's had a touchpoint with me

in my past career would beg to differ.

But actually if that hasn't stuck with you and resonated with you,

good, bad, or otherwise, then clearly it didn't really have an impact.

So I, I think that is interesting and my experience would be very similar to yours,

which was until I had an opportunity to move into a more senior role and

act up and really think about being a leader, you know, what it means to be a

leader or have any conversations about sort of leadership development and, and

until you are in that space and there's a little bit of me that worries if

that's a bit too late for some people.

Like, you're in it then and it's like,

that's a whole other conversation.

I'm sure we are gonna get into

Absolutely.

And, and I think like my reflections is similar to yours, as in I've

worked with people once, I've been in leadership positions who have, uh,

interestingly either been very supportive and perhaps challenged my thinking.

I had one chief exec who, uh, in my second one-to-one with them said, so, you know,

where do you wanna be in five years time?

Do you wanna be a chief exec?

And I was, Uh, actually no thanks.

And that's okay too, but that's, that's not, you know, where I want to head.

But then had, have had other, you know, um, managers who have not

really been interested in, not in my development as a leader.

And I, I think, you know, that that's just been something that I've reflected

on and, and found quite interesting.

So I guess to shift that along a little bit.

What sort of support would've been useful to you from your organizations

to get you to think about whether or not being a leader was something

that you wanted from your career and support you to get there if it was?

Yeah, I mean, I, I, it's a hard one to answer in one in some ways

because I've always been very proactive in my own development, and therefore,

when I say I didn't get support from my organization, I didn't get specific

leadership support, I did get a lot of support because I made a case for things.

They paid for me to do a master's.

I went to conferences, all of that kind of stuff.

It wouldn't have happened if I hadn't made a clear case.

And I suppose interesting reflection, linking it back to the leadership

thing, is that they were happy to pay for me to do things to make me become

more expert in my field, but less keen on you to do anything that would

perhaps develop you more broadly.

And it was almost maybe that fear that they're gonna lose you if they do that.

And I think that's perhaps the crux of the issue that no one is having

real conversations about people's ambitions and progression and all of

that kind of stuff, because there's that fear, If they help you achieve

that, then they're gonna lose you.

And so I wonder whether what would be useful from organizations is a,

is a bit of a mindset shift that actually broadly developing your people

is beneficial to the organization whether you keep them or not.

They're actually probably more likely to stay with you if you

do that broader development.

Of course, if you are in an expert area and there isn't that progression,

then it's only natural you are gonna move, but you can't hold on and hold

people back for your selfish reasons.

Yeah.

Oh, I'm so on board with what you've said there.

And, and my experience again would be similar, that very happy to fund sort

of technical training, um, in, in the chosen expert field that I work in.

But a lot of experience has been less, happy to, as you say, fund things

that are, are much more broad and maybe about, you know, being a leader.

And it's interesting that is it Fear of losing people that stops organizations

wanting to invest in individuals and in groups of people in their organization

that have real potential, um, to step into that senior leadership space.

I, is there also an element of it, maybe, that it feels a bit threatening?

um, to actually be encouraging people to step into that leadership space

early on and to be really open about how you're gonna develop people.

But, but my experience has definitely been that I've stayed longer in

organizations that have, uh, supported me from a leadership point of view

around things like mentoring and coaching and development programs

than I have in organizations who I feel have stifled that.

But I, I guess there's also something to consider if you are an individual

listening to this around your point about, you know, I definitely know you are,

and I would say I'm too, have been very

proactive throughout our careers and seeking out our own development

opportunities and feeling quite confident in saying, no, actually this is what I

need, or I'm go, I am going to do this.

But there will be people who perhaps don't quite have the confidence

or, or courage to do that.

And, and that feels sad to me that actually then if you are in an

organization who, who, uh, isn't proactively kind of addressing

that or seeking out what leadership development needs there might be

that there are people sitting there kind of just feeling a bit stuck..

We've talked a little bit about being developed in your sort of expert area,

which kind of leads me onto, um, the, the next thing that I, I wanted to raise in

the discussion, which, um, particularly in the sector in which I work, I have

often seen, um, people who are identified as being really good at their job.

Um, so whatever their chosen profession is, you know, whether that's in

finance, they're a great accountant, whether it's in a clinical role,

I work in healthcare, so you know, they're a really brilliant nurse and

it's almost assumed by their leaders or by the organizations that that will

automatically make them a good leader.

So then they get promotional opportunities to step into that leadership space.

But often kind of no development plan to support them.

So what's your take on how organizations potentially could

start to tackle some of this?

Oh, I love it when you do that face.

I love it now that some people will see you do that face as well, Lee.

It's like, yeah, this is right up Lee Street.

I'm just rolling up my sleeves here, So this is like my big bug bear

and actually probably one of the reasons that I do what I do in my business,

because people are supported, developed, promoted within this kind of funnel.

They go, they go upwards in a very straight line based on the

area of expertise they have.

And then suddenly they get to the more senior level.

and this platform opens out and the expectations on that person triples,

quadruples, whatever, usually in line with the amount of money that they're

paid, and yet people are just left out there exposed and left to flounder.

. And I think the issue is that organizations don't really think about

the things that they want leaders to do in their organization and then

give them that practical support.

And I'm talking about things like writing business cases, how you, how

do you do plans for cost savings?

How do you make service change?

How do you do strategy and planning?

How do you deal with the board?

Public engagement, talk about things that aren't your area of expertise in portfolio

to a broader organization or stakeholder.

You know, I could go on with the list of stuff that I've had to help people

in my kind of corporate career and also now in, in the business that I run.

And what happens is that leaders come across these things.

in real time and they struggle to handle it.

They get judged by others that they dunno what they're doing.

Um, more pressures put on them because there's this expectation of

delivery, because they're being paid so much money and it creates this

really unsupportive environment.

It makes the leader really bloody miserable and affects their

confidence and questioning their ability to kind of take it forward.

And at worst, leaders are left to fail and, and maybe even need to exit the role

or, or get moved onto something else.

And there are a lot of leaders that I work with who are people in that

position where they're just trying to adjust to these new demands and

expectations and figure out what kind of leader they actually want to be.

So I think, you know what, what can an organization do to bring it back to your

question is, In investing coaching, yes.

That sounds like, of course I'd be promoting, promoting that, but invest

in that safe space, so, so they can explore the, the nutty issues

and, and all of that kind of stuff.

Look at how you are preparing leaders in your organization,

so, Can you buddy them up?

Can you give them shadow opportunities?

Can you give them a chance to really see what the type of things

they're gonna have to deal with?

And maybe give them that experience early on when it's okay to fail.

And, and we've talked about psychological safety in, in the second, um, series.

It is about creating that safety culture for, for leaders to start to explore and

they need to do it that at an earlier stage in their career so that they

can feel like they've, they've had the knocks and the trips in the falls before

they get to, to that most senior level.

I think we need to do a massive amount of work to challenge the typical

leadership development programs that are out there because i, in my opinion,

a lot of them offer the same stuff, and it doesn't necessarily close

the gap that, you know, that list of stuff that I was just reeled off.

It doesn't necessarily touch the sides on some of that stuff.

And then I think there's a, thing about leaders who are already in senior

leadership positions need to change their own expectations about new leaders

and how they respond to new leaders.

You can't expect someone who's been in the job for two minutes

to perform, like someone who's been in the job for 10 years.

Um, Yes, the person who's been in the job for 10 years might know some stuff,

but they're not necessarily always gonna be the best person to know.

So you can't model your expectations on someone who's been in that job for longer.

Sorry, that's I, I literally could talk about this all day.

I do know.

I love it.

I feel like that's, uh, the first soapbox moment, truly of series uh,

three, which is excellent because it's only in the second episode, so

more of this as we go on, I'm sure.

But yeah, there's so much in what you've said there, Lee, that really resonates

with me and that I I forgot when you said about, you know, leaders who've been

well established in an organization can't expect new leaders to just like step

in and and be like them, but nor should we want new leaders to be like them.

No.

Well, that's what we're here for, isn't it?

exactly.

Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes.

Um, and there's something for me just about that, like, you know, we, we want to

create that diverse thinking, that diverse culture, that diverse conversation.

So we don't want 10 leaders who are all the same.

We want these new people to come through and feel able to flourish and grow and

thrive with support, that they're not just left there, as you say, floundering

left to their own devices because they haven't had maybe that encouragement,

that exposure, that support before they've got into those senior leadership roles.

So I, I absolutely do, um, agree with, with everything that you've said.

I, I think there's also something for me, and you touched on it slightly, so

I'd like to explore it a bit more, uh, around the types of organizational.

Like leadership programs that get put on, and my experience has been that

they are either, not actually leadership development programs at all, they're

management training programs, , and they're about really practical.

And, and I know we've talked about, you know, needing to, to understand

a bit more about how your remit changes as a senior leader, but the

leadership development programs that, that I've often had exposure to, or

just about how to be a decent manager, basically, you know, managing sickness,

having a challenging conversation.

Uh, how are you logging annual leave, like how are you managing performance

But it's all down here, isn't it?

And that's the thing, so, so those things might still be true and, but they're

different when you get to a more senior level and the, the context changes

and yet the training doesn't change.

yes.

They're, they're badged as a leadership development program and really

their, their management training.

Or I tend to find there's a kind of one size fits all approach.

Um, and, and I know there are organizations like we have our way,

so you know, and we have our value set and all of those things are

really important to, to be aligned.

But I sometimes think that kind of blinkered one size fits all with what

leadership development we're gonna offer.

Because what we're trying to do is create a consistent approach and a consistent

offer for leaders doesn't work for people on a lot of levels, either because their

own, uh, kind of ways that they grow and develop and educate themselves, uh, uh,

are not what's on offer in that program.

So it's kind of not diverse enough in terms of, of opportunity and, and ways

of learning, um, or I guess because it just sort of feels sometimes a

bit culty and I absolutely think, you know, values need to align when you

work in an organization for you to feel able to create that psychological

safety and work well with other people.

But sometimes it can feel a bit like culty, like actually, you know, this

leadership development program's going to turn you into a bit of

a robot It's, again, back to that point, the same as every other leader.

And actually I, I don't feel like that is what we want in this day

and age in terms of leadership.

So, sorry, having gone a really long-winded route around describing

all of that, I guess it's kind of with taking that on board, what,

what are your views on what we need to consider in order to change some

of that approach to this kind of one size fits all management development

rather than leadership develop?

Well, and I, I think the, the point you make about creating this like robotic

production line of what we want our leaders to, to look like, gets to nub of

the, the actual problem when you do the training, because it doesn't take into

account people's individual styles and what will work for them and maybe even

how they engage with learning and all of that kind of stuff is, is very different.

So for me, you need to tailor it.

Yes.

Of, of course.

I know that takes time and it takes effort and it, and it can be hard.

You, you want to try and do things at scale because that's, that's the most cost

effective and quickest way to do things.

But you've got to be able to, to couple that with bespoke

interventions with people at the right time on the right topic.

So you need to be looking at, you know, what the topics that that person needs,

how do you deliver it that's gonna best engage that person and and help them.

And when is the right time to do that?

So don't just say, oh, everyone's got come along on a Monday morning and

we can do this once, once a month.

And that's it.

You are, because there's no, for me, there always lacks a So

what factor to that training?

Because, people will go for a one day thing or a week thing, or half a day,

whatever it might be, or online training.

And then the next day they go back to business and they forget it.

They've made some notes.

They've, they filed the notes away.

They might have had a little breakthrough moment.

There might be a couple of new tools that they've started to use, but it doesn't

fundamentally shift the dial in the way that that the organization hopes it will

shift and it's, it's, it's a nice to have but doesn't fundamentally change practice.

So I think organizations have to look at how they make it sticky for people.

And I think that's where things like coaching is really powerful because

if you look at athletes, they all have performance coaches, for example, and in

leadership it can feel like it's a nice to have to have a coach, or it's only for the

most senior people in the organization.

But what if you took an approach of actually let's get performance coaches

to help support these individuals.

And, and yes, it might be maybe the top 20 or the top 30 people that you identify

in your organization that's got potential and, and you start to use that approach.

But then it's looking at how can you almost train the trainer?

How do you create a coach a, a coaching culture in the way that

you lead and manage so that people are able to take that reflection

and actually make the change happen.

I, yeah, I'm all for that.

I am absolutely here for kind of that personalization.

So I agree.

You know, there is a time and a place maybe for that more organizational

wide, um, approach to some of that development, but that can't be, that the

only way you develop leaders or potential future leaders in your organization.

Um, the coaching is really powerful and actually, you know, going into a

slightly different topic that I know we've covered before, really fits

with what type of culture you are trying to create in your organization.

That your leaders are role modeling.

So that kind of coaching behavior and style of leadership can

be definitely really powerful.

I, I also think there's things in there for me around, you know, you

mentioned some organizations wanting leadership development to feel and be

cost effective, but there is something about investing in people, whether that

is through paid for, uh, development opportunities or whether that is through

some development opportunities, which might be free, like shadowing, like,

you know, potentially having an informal mentoring relationship, helping people to

grow their network of, of peer support.

Um, but it's almost enabling people when they reach leadership positions

to know that it's okay to invest their time in that because it's an

important part of growing as a leader.

Um, so I don't think that investment always has to be about kind of

hard cash of how much a development opportunity costs in terms of

an invoice being sent to you.

But there is something about enabling people, um, to feel like it's okay

to invest in their own development.

However, that's, that, you know, that transpires.

. And, and in doing that, you are showing that you value those people,

that you value their leadership in your organization or that you value

their potential, um, to be leaders in your organization, which fits

so much with the retention piece that we, we briefly touched on.

But it's, it's finding the right fit for, for the person and the objectives

that, that, that you as an organization and that person is seeking to achieve.

And I think sometimes the risk with organizations that, that think that

they're doing that well is that they're, they're utilizing free resources.

So it might be, oh, we've, we, we have internal coaches for example, I, I'm

only talking about that cuz obviously that's, that's my area in, in interest.

But they'll use that or they'll go to a free network that they can

get that, which is all very well and good and it does have a place.

But wouldn't it be far better to recognize if there is an expert intervention or

a specialist type of coach or trainer or something that someone needs and and

do the match in the right way at the right time, than just going, oh, well

you've got access to the free stuff, but the free stuff might not challenge

you in the way that you need to be challenged in your leadership growth.

and it might not make you feel as valued as somebody actually

investing in you as a leader, and it might not make you want to stay there.

Absolutely.

And uh, you know, I think one of the things that comes up a lot for me with

senior communicators that I work with as a mentor is around the fact that

probably up to that point where they've potentially worked with me, They've

been given exactly what you've said, oh, well, we've got trained mentors in

our organization, so use one of them.

And it's like actually quite often they don't have that professional

background and expertise that a mentor can often bring in terms of

experience and support and advice.

But equally, sometimes leaders don't want that in their own organization because

what they want to talk to a mentor or a coach or whomever, a support network,

about feels like something that might be too tricky and challenging to talk

about with people that work with you.

Yeah.

And they've got to show their vulnerability.

And it's, and it can be really hard, particularly if you're in a senior

leadership position to, to show and, and we talk about showing up and saying,

you know, This is hard, I dunno how to do this and that and the other,

but that you've gotta go on a journey to get to that place to, to be able

to be open with someone and say that.

And you've got to be able to expose that vulnerability.

And if you can't do that in a safe space first, you're never

gonna do it in your organization.

Absolutely.

And I, I guess many people listening to this will already be in senior leadership

positions and leaders in their own organizations who perhaps have that

power, um, to, uh, think about, uh, how they want to develop future leaders or

existing leaders in their organization.

So if, if we are talking to one of those individuals, you know, what can I, as a

leader start to think about in terms of how I can do things differently and help

develop other leaders in my place of work?

So I don't think there's anything really new, um, in

terms of what I've already said.

So I've, I'll just repeat the, the three things I think that

were most important to me.

So what, so one is that as leaders taking that coaching approach to support other

leaders gonna always be beneficial.

The high performance organizations always take that approach.

I think you need to think about the person and you need to stop worrying

about them, about losing them, and they don't need this kind of development

for this role or for these objectives.

You know, you think holistically about the type of person you are helping

to shape and the impact they can have on the organization or in other

organizations that they go on to work.

And I think there's, there's self-work you need to do as a

leader on your own attitudes and behaviors and your expectations.

Going back to that thing around, you can't expect someone newly

into a role to be performing like, like you are in your role.

And I, and I say that being someone who has set really high expectations of my

team in the past and have had to do a lot of work to go, well, maybe they don't

think and feel the same as me, or maybe just cuz I did it this way doesn't mean

that, that they're gonna do it this way.

So, you know, it, we are all human.

This is a natural thing that happens, but we all need to work on that.

Yeah, I, I would just build on those points by saying, you know,

actually as a leader, you, you know, you do manage people in your organization

that, that work directly to you.

So actually have those appraisals give meaningful feedback to people

that will help their development.

Uh, don't just wait a year to do that appraising and talk about their personal

development plan, which so often happens in organizations as a tick box

exercise to say everyone's got one and then it's not revisited for a year.

Like, Bring that to life for the people that are in your leadership team that you

are leading, managing, and supporting.

And I think also as a leader, I think you have a role to identify

those learning opportunities for individuals as well as organizationally.

Because I don't think we should just be expecting people to come up with

their own, because quite often, You know, it, it takes more conversations

than just the self-reflection to work out what would make somebody a

more impactful or effective leader.

So, you know, do those interventions, identify those opportunities

and, and offer them to people.

Don't expect people just to be merrily sat away, you know, at home

doing their own, doing their own development, I say in Bunny ears.

So, so hopefully, um, that last bit of conversation gave some helpful how

tos because we do always like to end an episode with some practical, um,

things that people can consider and, and hopefully do as this is a year of action.

Let's go more for the doing than the, uh, considering.

Um, is, is there, I love that you put your hand up, please.

I was just about to say to you, is there anything burning that you

want to, to share before we end this conversation about how organizations

can support leadership development?

I'm feeling feisty this series.

I

Uh,

what there, there's just something

I gotta get ready for this.

Maybe we do need to bring the gin back.

Well, no, that's, that's when, when the extrovert comes out of me, . But I,

I think my final thing is w as leaders in, in this context of this conversation.

We need to stop settling for mediocre.

I think we need to be honest about what's re required for our people and we've

got to start challenging the status quo.

Love.

I love it.

You are feeling feisty this series, aren't you?

We're only episode two.

Something in the waters.

I dunno.

I can't, on that note, I cannot wait for the next episode to see

where that's gonna take the conversation.

Um, thank you so much.

Thank you to everyone who's listened, watched, however you are engaging

with us, um, we really appreciate it.