Episode Summary: In this episode Jenn Swanson, Brian Tormey and Leekei Tang talk about a new milestone on the road to nuclear fusion

In December 2022, the nuclear fusion research effort reached a major breakthrough whereby the reaction generated more energy than it consumed

After sharing their understanding of the subject and why this news set a milestone for a future of clean energy, Jenn, Leekei and Brian toyed with various scenarios of possible tomorrows where energy is in abundance.

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac, visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

You can find out more on page 186 of the Carbon Almanac and on the website you can tap the footnotes link and type in 094

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From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and Community Connector, helping people help themselves.  

Brian is a Real Estate Title Insurance Professional and Goat Farmer in the US. 

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France.  

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Ima.

I live in Scotland.

Hi, I'm Jen and I'm from Canada.

Hi, I'm Ola Vanji and I'm from Nigeria.

Hello, I'm Leaky and I live in Paris.

Hey, I'm Rod.

I'm from Peru.

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Okay.

Hi, I'm Lake.

Hi, I'm Jan.

I'm Brian . And today we are talking about No Clear Fu

Okay, we are recording this episode in, in December.

This is the second week of December, and this episode will probably be

realized in January, but something, something major broke the news last week.

This week, actually two days ago.

Tell us more the, the real definition of a newsflash . Right.

Um, well, I think, you know, it's exciting.

The, um, the, you know, some US scientists, although I will give a

quick shout out here, some people have commented, noted that there's a number of

groups in Europe also working, and we're near this kind of, uh, milestone as well.

But maybe the war in Ukraine slowed down some of their progress.

But for the moment, uh, here in December, some US.

Have achieved what's called ignition in a, in a fusion reaction, um, which, and then

sort of overcome this ignition barrier.

We'll come back and dive a little bit into fusion, but it sort of means that

they've produced more energy than it took to create that amount of energy creation.

Um, and so that's a, a super exciting milestone,

I've listened to podcast hats only four or five months ago that were

all about fusion, and it was like, well, it's always only 10 years away

before we're gonna achieve this.

You know, crossing this ignition energy barrier where we're actually

drawing more power out of the reaction than what into creating the.

but here we are in December of 2022 and we've crossed that barrier.

Um, and it's super duper exciting and I think holds, you know, a lot of

exciting stuff for us to chat about here.

Um, you know, I guess I would turn and ask, uh, leaky, you know, you, you were

sharing and sort of talking a little bit about the amount of energy on any one

country driven by different sources of.

And, you know, fusion is not one that's driving for any country

right now, but something somewhat similar to fusion Nuclear power.

Yes.

Yeah.

Is is dominant in your country, correct?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, well as you know, um, in France and in France, , the, the source

of energy is many nuclear because.

I don't know if you, um, you, you are aware of, there was, um,

crisis, the oil crisis in seven in the seventies and, um, and the

government decided to, to, develop.

The energy sector, the, um, nuclear energy sector.

There was this very famous phrase, uh, that says

which means in France we have no oil, but we have lots of ideas.

And the idea was to switch everything into, uh, to nuclear power.

And so, I think before, , all the, uh, the, you know, the, the, the

problems in Japan, , France was leading, the nuclear energy sector.

And, um, I think that 70% of, of energy comes from nuclear,

um, nuclear plants in front.

It used to, um, not anymore because um, a lot of them are

been, , under repair these days.

Um, but this is something that we've been using for a while and um, and I

know that's very controversial, . It's a very controversial topic, but so far we

didn't have any problem in France and.

I get very excited about, the fusion, uh, the nuclear fusion power, , as opposed to

fishing, which is when you get the energy, when, when you separate the atoms, right?

So this is the energy that is, uh, used today.

And the problem of it is that it creates, Love waste.

No, it creates waste.

No, I shouldn't say a love waste.

It creates waste and it's difficult because it's potent for a long time.

And, um, there are accents, whereas the, um, energy that comes from

fusion, um, is the energy that's that powers the sun and this is the type

of energy that comes from, , Fusion.

So from the atoms melting, , and it's safer and um, and it's seems to be

an incredible, um, source of energy that is, um, that does not, em,

it's common, so it's clean energy.

So there was a lot of hope, but, , as you said.

Um, yeah, we are maybe 10 years away.

, but, you know, I work a lot with, uh, students, and, uh, they

told me that there was this joke.

Um, I, I work a lot with, um, engineering students and they told me that this the

joke and let me pull the joke, uh, among physicists, uh, lemme see, think it's,

um, yeah, there's a joke that says, oh, nuclear fusion energy is 20 years.

and it will always be

Yeah.

This is a joke because actually the technology, um, and

again, I'm not a physicist.

I'm not a scientist at all, but I know that this type of energy

existed, um, since the fifties.

But basically it comes from a bomb.

, it's a very, very powerful bomb.

It's called, um, um, H bomb or it's a hydrogen bomb, which is like, I don't

know how many times more pot than it is, uh, as compared to, , the atomic bomb,

but it's really, really, really bad.

But then we saw the potential in transforming it and using it,

this type of, this technology and to generate energy and, and

to plug it to, into our grid.

But there are of problems that needs to be solved before that.

So that's why it took so long.

Agreed.

I was gonna say, you know, just commenting back on the beginning part of your,

uh, commentary that leaky, I, you know, I'm here in the United States in New

York and I actually live near a nuclear power plant that is in the process as

many are in other parts of the world of actually being decommissioned and

over concerns of their potential, you know, fallout kind of situation as it

relates to, you know, systems failure.

and so many around the world of this, what is otherwise a very clean

type of energy source that doesn't contribute to our, our sort of the,

the imbalance in our carbon cycle.

Many nuclear power plants are actually being decommissioned out of

concerns over their age, their safety protocols, those kind of things.

And I live in an area where, you know, my energy now is this power plant

becomes decommissioned because we don't yet have a fusion replacement.

Now that energy that I otherwise would be consuming and the people

in the local area, including New York City, would be consuming.

You're now gonna come from other plants that might be natural

gas powered or coal tower.

you know, maybe a little bit of hydro, maybe a little bit of solar, a little

bit of wind, but, but they all have, those have other sort of negative

impacts into this carbon cycle imbalance.

And it's gonna actually have an impact as well to the cost, right?

The, the, because the nuclear is actually was already built and very cost efficient.

it's actually gonna raise the electrics rate.

Now I happen to have a full solar array, so we're self-powered in

my house, but most people aren't.

And so it's interesting, I think one of the conversations around

fusion comes back to the same thing.

If you compare the different sources of energy out there in the marketplace,

um, the cost to produce a kilowatt hour used as a standard measuring

thing, you know, varies across these d.

Technology, nuclear, coal, natural gas fired, hydro wind, solar, and

fusion Hold potential because as you mentioned, the, the, the ingredients

that go into making fusion work are yeah, readily, abundantly available.

And don't create this, this sort of like, um, waste material that has to

be dealt with, uh, like, uh, depleted uranium done and both kind of.

Yes.

And so it's readily available materials and if we can get this equation right, or

if this is the great hope is if we can get this balance right, where less energy goes

in, you know, two, yeah, megajoules go in and we get three megajoules of energy out.

Well then that can be the sort of self-fulfilling like that and then

helps start powering all the rest of it.

But for right now, some of the commentary and have been.

You know, on this discovery as well, for right now, we actually have

an amazing source of fusion power.

And it's actually our sun.

Our sun is producing fusion power every single day.

I mean, today for me, it's very rainy and wet and I don't see much of the fusion

power, but it's, but it's producing all this fusion power there in the

sun, which we receive a solar energy.

Um, and so I think there's a, a little bit of a question

of like, what's gonna happen?

With fusion, when, when does it come into play and become a cost affordable thing?

And does it re, does, does it mean that we need to not be worried

about our source of energy and our, our carbon cycle imbalance now?

And I turned, Jim, do you have thoughts on this?

Yeah, I was just, uh, doing a little research on, on what

was happening where I am.

I'm in Canada, I'm in Western Canada, in British Columbia.

And it seems that there were, there are about 22 nuclear power reactors in Canada,

but only 19 of them are working, and most of them are in Ontario, which is, uh,

is more central, uh, eastern central.

Um, there are the one in Quebec decided to shut down about 10 years ago because

of the same kinds of things that we had talked about, um, about safety and.

And efficiency, and I know that here in British Columbia we have a lot of water.

And there, uh, there's big argument going on that's been going on for years.

Um, our government decided to purchase a, um, a pipeline, which caused a lot of

controversy and there are protests and there are all sorts of things going on.

Um, we've got a, a big dam that's being constructed in the north.

Called the Site C Dam.

Um, and, uh, and the idea is to dam a very powerful river,

uh, for hydroelectric power.

Um, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of power discussions and, and

so this, this caused me a bit of hope, , especially given the, the

reduction of carbon like no carbon.

And the possibility that if we could do what we did with the pandemic

and everybody jump on board and try and get this pushed farther ahead,

you know, it seems to be like when there's an urgent matter, like the

pandemic, sorry, that's Charlie shaking.

Um, like the pandemic where every scientist focused

their energy and their money.

If we could all, everyone, scientists everywhere Yeah.

Focus their energy and their money on this, then, then there's real hope Yeah.

For, for reducing our carbon and, and giving energy to everyone and Wow.

You know, Jen, there was a, uh, a great little piece I, I read

on the fundraising in 2022.

Uh, as it relates to, there were 33 main companies that were sort of raising funds

and focusing on fusion of meaningful sides and, and fundraising scale.

And the amount that was fundraised was a fraction of the, I think it was in

total $3 billion, if I recall correctly, but I could be slightly wrong on that.

Don't quote me.

But I do recall that it was a fraction, like less than 10%.

Of the same amount of money raised for, uh, companies focusing on addressing

like short-term delivery, like delivering restaurant food to your door and short

and delivering packages to your door, and like technology around like, Uber Eats.

I don't know if you have these where you are, but things like Uber Eat

or GrubHub or those things, like much more money, more than 10 times

money was raised for those services in 2022 than for nuclear fusion.

But this, this, this big milestone might change that we

may see a change in the future.

So I'm, I'm hopeful.

That things do go in the direction that they're more funding dollars

resources, you know, federal for, you know, every country, you know,

dollars are allocated towards.

And therewith with the money goes the time and energy from scientists and engineers.

I, I hope it does go that way.

Yeah.

Uh, and I, I wanna go back to, um, the urgency that you mentioned, Jen.

I actually, I said something that was not totally right because when I said,

oh yeah, well, in France, we, in Europe, we've been working on this topic for

long and, uh, it's been slowed down because of the war of Ukraine, which

is partly true, but not totally true because, um, As you, as you mentioned,

Brian, there are different ways of, different ways of, um, of, getting the

potential of the, uh, nuclear fusion.

And, uh, so it's true for one, , project, which is laser based, uh,

which is based in France, in bau.

And, um, they were, they were waiting for like, Still delivery to, to

work on the, on the laser thing.

But then there's another project which is, and you probably have

heard of it because it's this international project, which is called.

Which stands for, hang on just one minute.

Um, stands for International Thermonuclear Experimental Rector.

And this is a project, it's an international product and it has

European Union, China, us, Russia, India.

So a lot of countries are involved in this project and they're building a new recor.

And this new rector is based somewhere.

Okay.

Somewhere in.

And, um, and, um, the test should start some, the test test should start sometime

in, uh, it gets your dog Very excited.

Wasn't mine, not very excited.

No.

So it, the Rakuten, uh, was supposed to start, uh, being oper

to start operating in 20 27, 25.

And, um, because of the urgency, and it, because it's an international

project, there was a lot, um, of fear, , because, um, Russia is part of this

project and, uh, this year, uh, Russia.

Has, um, um, is um, is supposed to deliver one of the magnets, one of

the six magnet for this project.

A big, very, very big magnet because this is another technology that uses

magnet and actually, , because there's a urgency and despite the worst situ still

delivered this magnet to this project.

So I think this kind of urgency goes beyond.

The worst situation.

So yeah.

Yeah.

I, yeah, I think this is this, uh, this is great.

That's great to hear that.

Leave me a good moment.

Leaky, to talk for a, a second about the different kinds of, of

technical approaches to fusion.

because, you know, and again, I'm also not a scientist, physicist, engineer, or

expert in this, as none of us on this, uh, podcast are, but it is interesting because

the, the, the it a r project you're referring to is, is following this method.

Referred to as Tomac, where they're these really big magnetic, um, uh,

components that create this sort of donut shaped field, the plasma, and moving

around at super fast speed constrained by the magnet and these Tomac magnet,

these big things that Russia just delivered, one of which is great to hear.

This newest, um, uh, breakthrough that just happened, you know, for us this

week here in December, um, out at the Lawrence Livermore Labs, um, which

I have to have a quick shout out.

I, it just dawned on me.

I actually have a coworker who works at Lawrence Livermore,

so I've gotta call him.

He now works there.

He worked for me many years ago.

Um, uh, not on this project, on, on other things, but, but, so the approach they

did was a different kind of approach where they had all these lasers, 192

different lasers all focused, and they do use magnets to create some

magnetic field around it and create the precision, but it's not the same

as the Tomac project where they focus all these lasers at this little seed.

Um, and sort of like create all this pressure because all the lasers hit

all at just the right second, all perfectly aligned and, and whatnot.

Um, so it's interesting cuz there's, there's essentially two competing

approaches to achieving this kind of ignition fusion energy.

There's two different models at play here.

I would not say competing.

I would say complimentary because, uh, yeah, complimentary.

Right, right.

But like, yeah, if like, you know, it's like, In early, in the early days of

the invention of the bicycle, there were different like form factors Yes.

That were being experimented with and like, and we now have current form factor

that sort of became that, you know, under pressure of evolutionary pressures became

the form factor that we all know today.

But in the beginning there were numerous different form factors that

were, you know, being tested out and tried and, and here we've got the ITER

project is sort of one form factor.

and the, the Livermore Labs project that just achieved this, this whole

milestone is a different form factor.

It's like a different style of achieving the goal, uh, and structure.

So it's exciting to see that there's more than one thing in motion.

Cause it feels to me that that diversity of approach maybe,

hopefully, will lead to even more likelihood of outcome of success.

Isn't that true of many things like the radio and the, the light bulb?

There were all sorts of things that were, um, Being dreamed up in various places.

Um, and uh, and so it's funny how that all of a sudden breakthroughs

happen in multiple places.

Around the same subject.

I think that's so amazing.

. Yeah.

I don't know if you, because we've been, we are talking now a lot about, uh,

nuclear fusion in the past few days.

And I don't know if you remember, uh, in back to the future, um, there was a scene

where, um, Can't, what's the name with Z?

Well, the doc goes to Maori and say, okay, well , I need to take you

to the future because, uh, because there's an urgent matter to that

needs to you to, to help solve.

And um, so he has his car and he goes to the, to the, , garbage and picks some.

Some garbage and put into like a kind of grinder in his car, and

this grinder is attached to his car.

And it says, uh, mis fusion.

So I believe that this is, this, this kind of thing was like,

um, , a portable, um, huge rec.

On the car.

So maybe the future will be like this.

. I love it.

, back to the future, invented . Yeah.

He, he doesn't get literally some, I remember that scene.

He's in an alleyway and he gets some like banana peels and things.

Puts him in the car with him.

Yeah.

And yeah, so this probably, this might be the future, I mean the

future that some people dreamed of and, uh, might be our future.

Yeah, but well, the problem is that it's, it's not tomorrow because

it takes a long, long time for it to That's very cool though.

I, I remember , I was just gonna say, I remember when my son was a little

boy and he, we asked him what, um, what he wanted Santa to bring him, and he

said, a watch that I can watch TV on.

And this was in the 1990s.

, there was no such thing . And so, you know, Santa had a really hard time cause

there was no such thing and Santa was too busy to invent it that year,

but , um, but isn't it interesting that our human imagination and creativity

can come up with the solutions that, that the world needs when we need it?

So that, that brings me hope, . But that doesn't mean that , because of

this breakthrough, uh, we can and we should stop, you know, what we're doing

now to try to reduce carbon emission because it takes some time, right?

Yeah, we do right?

We, this, this isn't a technology that will solve our problems tomorrow.

This is exciting.

We can be very excited.

We've made a forward progress, but, and maybe this is a moment

to even sort of acknowledge.

That there are still parts in this breakthrough that the measurement

of, again, using two, you know, megajoules turned into three, that

doesn't mean that it's fully taken into account all of the other energies

that went into producing the machine.

The equipment like we with, there's still many more breakthroughs

needed to make this commercially viable in a way that is competitive

with these other energy sources.

, be it nuclear, be it coal or natural gas cost competitive.

I don't mean impact competitive, um, or solar or wind or hydro, you know,

it's, it's still, there's many more breakthroughs still needed to get there,

which means, as you said, leaky, you know, we, we need to keep doing the things

we're doing now to help change the course of our planetary, you know, trajectory

because we can't just hold our breath.

This what may be a contributing benefit that helps us in the future,

but it it's still years away.

Maybe decades.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm.

So we keep talking.

We keep doing, so we keep talking.

we keep doing, but I'm just, I'm just thinking of something about, uh, okay,

we're not making any investment advice.

We're not giving any investment advice here.

But because you say that, Brian, that there's very little in investment,

, going into these companies.

As compared to like your deliveries and all these, um,

other type of, um, businesses.

Maybe one way to support this is to.

Look for investment funds that goes into this type of investment.

But again, we're not making any , we're not giving any investment advice.

Yeah.

But it's just, yeah, just something that crossed my mind.

Well, it's just, it's, you know, as a consumer, you have power, right?

So what can you do with your power as a consumer?

Yeah.

Well, and leaky, wasn't it, I, if I recall correctly, we, we just

recorded a podcast that our listeners would, will hopefully have just

listened to here in early January.

And in that we talked about some of your thoughts and plans for your

New Year's resolutions and, and going forward with the new year.

And am I recalling correctly that one of yours was banking?

Yes.

And actually like shifting where you're doing your banking and you're investing

because that is a thing that you can do and control where your dollars are.

Yes.

And with what institution and what that institution is

doing with, with your dollars.

Yes.

And, and that is, that's how many of these things are being funded.

Right.

So yeah, we do have that.

. Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

Excited.

Well, I will say we didn't even touch on anything, but I think I added to my

like new, you know, new Year's resolution after our recording session a week ago.

Uh, I was really reflecting on your banking one.

Um, and I was like, oh, I, that's a thing.

I, I, I can go make those changes.

I, I know how to go do it.

It's accessible.

I know, which I, I think I understand sort of some of the moves to make.

I need to do a little bit more.

Maybe peck your brain, but I think I can go make some changes that influence that.

And so that, that is the thing and and hopefully that will lead to some

more funding for progressive projects like this rather than funding for

the next coal fired power plant.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, that's good.

That's been fun.

What else?

Is there anything else about fusion that I, that sort of excites you all?

I mean, I can, I've got one thing that I, I wanted to add in as like a little

bit of a goes off in a bit of a tangent.

Is it okay if I go on a tangent?

Yeah.

Y yes, absolutely.

Go on a tangent.

You know, my, my tangent had to do with, and this is, you know, moving a little

bit in direction, but as you start to think about a future state, Energy,

if, you know, if you can put two things into something and get three of them

back out, right, you start to right.

It becomes a, a fulfilling cycle that starts to become, in a certain

sense, maybe unlimited energy.

So again, I fully recognize, and that this is not our next five years, 10

years, 15, probably not a 20 or 30 years, like I'm, I'm, I'm looking much farther

into the future, but with unlimited energy, it turns into a little bit of

a question of what does that change?

You know, world geopolitical dynamics and humanitarian dynamics, and a

world in which there isn't the, the constrained resources of oil,

coal, hy, you know, there's the, the constraints around these resources

all of a sudden become non impactful.

And there's this other source of, you know, not just renewable energy,

but essentially limitless energy.

Right.

And.

what happens geopolitically and with us as a species and

with all these other species.

And it feels to me, and you know, and you too may have your, uh,

I'm curious of your thoughts.

It feels like there's so much strife in the world that might

fall away in that future state.

Right.

Any thoughts on like, you know, what are some things happening in the

world today that you might might say, oh, that might not happen in that,

Oh, right.

Right now it's v We have a, i, I, my phone just gave me a

weather alert and we have mm-hmm.

, extremely cold temperatures coming and, uh, snow and all the rest of it.

And there are an awful lot of people and, and especially in one particular area

of our city in Van, in beautiful mm-hmm.

Vancouver.

There's a really, really unfortunate side where there are hundreds of

people sleeping on the street and.

, um, and cold and you know, if there was, uh, ability to have

shelter with heat and warmth.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So all that humanitarian side to it.

Yeah, very much.

Great.

Yeah.

For me, on the back of my mind, I think that a lot of walls and

conflicts in the world, , have.

Root causes, and this is untold and, um, from the control of, um, of the

resources I mean, it's quite obvious and, uh, it's not even controversial.

I think it's really obvious.

But it's not totally, um, admitted by government, uh, because it's un it's

underlying, but it's, I think, yeah, the bottom line is the control of natural

resources and natural, when we talk about natural resources, we talk about energy.

And so if there's limitless, um, energy, Source of limitless energy on this

planet, there would be probably less war.

I hope.

Oh, this is maybe the naive me talking, but I think that there will

be probably other reasons to make war, but it's not for this reason.

What do you think, Brian?

Because you asked the question we didn't.

Yeah, no, I think both of those are true.

I think both the humanitarian aspect, um, as well as I think assuming

that we, there's a democratization of access to that unlimited power.

I think there's, um, this sort of reduction in conflict, you

know, so whether that's wars or, or other forms of conflict.

I also think there's this beautiful thing where, you know, time is to me one of the

most constrained resources we have, right?

Like if there, there's no way to make more time and yet all of a sudden if you

have unlimited energy, then it allows you to sort of use that to achieve

things that open up the availability of time and because your time doesn't

go towards these certain things.

And with that opening up of time, I think as we look back in history,

there's these different technological.

, um, you know, sort of large movements that have spurred large amounts of

artistic and creative flourishing, and I think that might be one of

the other beautiful things that come out of it, is more beautiful things.

People will have more time if, you know, if you look at the average, uh,

citizen's budget, a significant amount of those dollars from their take home pay.

Goes towards a, a spend that is essentially driven by a spend towards

paying for heating oil, right?

Or heating fuel in one fashion or another, whether that's electricity,

oil, gas, whatever it is.

Unfortunately, mostly an often, uh, you know, fossil fuel driven that adds to our

carbon cycle imb, you know, but all of a sudden maybe they don't need to work

as many hours because they don't need to pay for heating, they don't need to pay

for lighting in the same kind of way.

Maybe instead of if the average at work week is 40 hours and heating and lighting

and sort of power, Are 15% of a person's time, like that's six hours back a week.

Imagine if six hours you had every week, my dog is very excited

about this too, with Keith.

I was more hours, . I could play with my dog more, play more.

I could go learn a new craft, a language, um, a musical instrument.

I could go do a p some artwork like.

all these outlets to where that same time can, I can go engage with more

friends or go do more social, give back, you know, like in, in different ways.

Like that.

Time for me is, I think this beautiful thing that we might see broad-based

as energy becomes, you know, nearly unlimited or fully unlimited.

I'm never thought about this, but that's a great way of thinking about the

future and that gets me very excited.

. Yeah, I'm excited.

. That's wonderful.

I think we should, we should end on this high note

Yeah.

Yeah.

Great.

Great things to come out of.

Humanitarian reduction, conflict arts and creativity.

All these creative things to come out of fusion.

We know they won't be tomorrow, but hopefully.

And I have a new way of thinking of fusion because up until now

it's been, you know, Thai Fusion or

Right?

Right.

Culinary fusion.

That's right.

It's always about food.

That's what fuels us,

Oh, wonderful.

Well, thank you, uh, all for inviting me to be here.

Excited to have another conversation.

Absolutely.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you.

Bye.

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