How do we deal with our intellectual doubts? In this episode, Daniel gives four practical ways to deal with doubts, based upon his 30 years as a pastor, and on his own life.

Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio): Welcome to

philosophy and faith where our goal is

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to help you navigate your intellectual

and spiritual journey, especially in

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regards to topics like God, faith and

doubt, meaning and purpose and more.

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I'm Nathan Beasley and I'm Daniel Jepson.

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And together we discuss the big

questions that humans have wrestled

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with for thousands of years.

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We're glad you can join us.

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So we've been talking about.

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Faith and doubt and how.

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Faith is not about certainty, but

there can actually be degrees of

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certainty and that sort of thing.

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And it's not just adhering to a set

of belief, but it's trusting a person.

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And so I think at this episode, we want

to kind of talk through, what does it look

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like when you are struggling with faith?

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Or you're deconstructing or maybe somebody

comes to you and they say, I'm in a

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season of deconstructing certain beliefs.

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What should I do?

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so Daniel, how would you

walk through somebody's?

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Who comes to you expressing that?

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What are some practical ways that you

can can give to help us deal with doubt?

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Sure.

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And a lot of these are going to be

dependent on where that person is and

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what they're particularly doubting.

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But certainly I've had many times of

doubt before in my Christian walk.

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As you probably have to.

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Yeah.

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And so some of these are what has

helped me or helped other people.

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let me give you some.

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Suggestions.

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And the first.

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Is this idea that you mentioned

last time that we need ballast.

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And for those who may not

be familiar with the term.

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If the ship goes out onto the ocean,

it needs ballast, which is a very

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heavy weight in the bottom of the ship.

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Very often ships today, you see water,

but they used to use say bricks or rocks.

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You can find streets today that are made

or bricks that were formed in England.

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Because the shifts that

came and brought people from

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England, use those for ballots.

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Hmm.

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So, and what's the purpose of it.

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Oh, sorry.

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The purpose of ballast.

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Is that your ship has a stability on

the bottom, even when storms come.

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So you're going to have a storm

that, that rocks back and forth.

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And if you don't have any imbalance,

the ship is just going to go wherever

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the wind takes it without control.

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Oh.

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But if you have some Vallas, yeah.

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You're still gonna get rocked around

a lot, but you're able to stay

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upright and control of the ship.

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Yeah.

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So that's the idea.

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So the idea of ballast is

important because you are

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going to have times of doubts.

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And unless you have that balance,

might be game over in In terms

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of your walk with Christ.

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that's a helpful metaphor.

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What is.

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Balanced in the Christian life.

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How can you grow that?

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Well, one thing is just to deepen

your walk with Christ in your

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understanding of the scriptures.

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That to me has been the greatest ballast

in my life is looking at the scriptures

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and knowing, okay, there are some

things I don't like in this scripture.

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I'm going to be honest, I'm a pastor.

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As well as the teacher and there

are some things I don't like, there

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are some things I don't get it.

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There are some things that seem like,

okay, if I'm just reading this by itself,

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there is no way I'm believing this.

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At the same time.

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I had seen.

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Wondrous beautiful

truths within this book.

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That I've never seen anywhere else.

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So you came in literature and I've read.

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Uh, most of the classics.

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To me, there is a depth and a

beauty and a wonder to this.

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That to me is a lot of the balanced.

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So I think there've been times,

especially after our Sunday.

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Where maybe I would've walked away.

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If there weren't this idea.

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That I can't.

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You know, Just too much here.

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And I think you see that

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in John chapter six.

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Alright, this is a really good example.

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So Jesus gives.

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Some very puzzling statements.

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He's talking about, unless you eat

my body, you don't have eternal life.

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He hasn't instituted the

Eucharist yet the Lord's supper.

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So his disciples are really tripping out.

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That says a lot of the

crowd just up and leave.

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They're like, okay, that's just weird.

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Bizarre.

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You either are crazy or you're

just trying to drive us off on

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purpose, you know, or something.

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And, uh, he looks.

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At his disciples, the 12, and

he says, Do you want to go also?

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And I love the gentleness of Jesus.

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He's not trying to drive people

off, but he's making clear.

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And he's allowing people to leave.

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Do you want to leave also?

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And Peter says, Lord.

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Where can we go?

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Hmm.

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You have the words to be turned away.

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We believe we know you're the son of God.

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Wow.

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And he doesn't say, oh no, Jesus.

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We understand speaking symbolically about

body being given to us on the cross.

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And how we receive

God's life through that.

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He doesn't understand any of that.

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Cause across as it happened.

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he doesn't say no, we get it.

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He says, we have heard you

speak words of eternal life.

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Now there's nowhere else we can go.

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Wow.

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And when I look at all the alternatives.

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To the Christian Fe.

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Naturalism or Eastern thought or

some other idea that I could turn to.

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I can't.

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They don't have to me

the same truth or beauty.

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The Christianity has.

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So even in those times where I could

have walked away, I can't walk away.

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Wow.

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So to me that's balanced.

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For some people, it might be

more religious experience.

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either of their conversion and how God

changed their life, or perhaps some

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miracle that they saw, maybe the world

isn't called a miracle, but they saw

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they saw profound change or something.

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Profound answer to prayer.

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I heard someone say.

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You can't argue with someone with a story.

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And what he meant by that is you can't

just get philosophical arguments or

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logical arguments, just someone who knows.

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Uh, by their own personal

spirits, that something is true.

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So for some people, it might be that,

and the balanced in this case might be.

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Recalling that thinking that

through in your life a little bit.

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Yeah.

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It reminds me when Paul's distracting.

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I believe Timothy to.

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Make every effort to.

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Recall or confirm your calling?

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Yeah.

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where he saying, Hey, they're going to be

seasons when you're going to want to give

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up, but actually remembering the time when

Jesus called you to be a pastor and FSS.

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Remember that, because that can help

get you through the difficult times.

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Yeah, and that can help also

think That's probably the reason

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that God made the Passover.

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This beautiful event of what God had

done in Israel's history and saving them.

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An annual occurrence.

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And why the Lord's supper.

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Jesus says, remember me as you do this.

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We're not just practicing something.

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We are.

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Focusing our mind on what God has done

because so, and we probably do too.

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They're going to be times where

we don't see that unless we had

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that regular practice involved.

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Wow.

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So practices of remembering.

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Uh, and I know you've talked

about in, in, in various sermons.

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Just how frequently God

instructs Israel to remember.

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Yeah.

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Remember, remember, remember, because as

soon as you forget, That's that's when.

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I mean, losing that ballast is,

is a really challenging thing.

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I think another thing for me,

that's important to build.

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Dallas is testimony.

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Yeah.

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That's one of the other people,

testimonies of other people.

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Or even just sharing my own.

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Stories and testimony, not just being

like when I First became saved or

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anything like that necessarily, although

it can be that, but the ongoing.

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Recognition of God's work and movement.

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And my life.

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Uh, whether that's, My family or my

church community or that kind of thing.

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I remember this line from Dallas Willard.

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He talks about the

objective of apprentices.

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Is to dearly love and constantly delight

in the heavenly father made real.

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Earth in Jesus and become quite

certain that there is no catch, no

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limit the goodness of his intentions.

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Or his power to carry them out.

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Yeah, I love The quote,

getting to that place.

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Um, through personal experiences and

heart to heart connection with God through

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prayer description, that sort of thing can

definitely help develop the ballast there.

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Definitely.

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That's a, that's a huge one.

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I had another idea here.

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And I don't know if this falls

under the idea of balanced or

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separate, but it's kind of the idea.

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This phrase is an original,

but I don't remember where it

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came from is to borrow faith.

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And the idea.

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Being that they're going to be

times where you have in your mind.

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An intellectual objection to Christianity.

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And to borrow faith is to recognize

that other people, many of whom

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are probably smarter than you.

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Have also had that same objection

or understood that same problem.

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But it stayed faithful.

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So I think if a couple people come to

mind for myself, William Lane, Craig.

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is one of the very few people who has.

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Two PhDs under some of the

leading thinkers in their fields.

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So he went to England and got a PhD under

John Hicks and philosophy of religion.

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And at that time, John Higgs was

probably the most well-known scholar

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in the field of philosophy of religion.

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And then he went to Germany.

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And he got a PhD under

Jurgen Moltmann oh, no way.

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Yeah.

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I didn't realize that.

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Yeah.

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And if you.

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Familiar with 20th

century, late 20th century.

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The allergy.

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He is one of the two or three top names.

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Probably

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And maybe a few others.

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Yeah.

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So anyway, he's got two PhDs in separate

but related fields from the top.

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Academic people that he could write those

PhDs under And he advocates for the faith.

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His entire life.

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There's not an argument that I

could think of that he doesn't know.

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Wow.

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Or another person that comes

to my mind is Alister McGrath.

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I just love his writings.

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He's a.

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Wonderful thinker.

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But, you know, he went to Oxford.

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And he got a PhD in molecular biology.

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And then he became a Christian

after that he wasn't atheist before.

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So he went and got a PhD in theology.

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which was also at Oxford, one of the

Oxford colleges, just for good measure.

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He went and got a PhD in intellectual

history at one of the other schools

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at Oxford three, Oxford PhDs.

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No.

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I look at that and I say, okay.

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There is nothing that will come across

my view that these guys haven't run

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across and yet they stay faithful.

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Hmm.

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Or in the area of science.

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Francis Collins.

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Head of the.

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Human genome project,

very devoted Christian.

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There's no science issue that I'm

going to run across that he hasn't

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already dealt with in an estate.

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Faithful.

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So that's what I mean by borrowing faith.

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Are you talking?

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Then, primarily from these kind

of intellectual giants who.

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have heard the good reasons, not

to believe in their fields of

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study and you have stayed faithful.

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That's a good question.

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We should probably expand that.

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they're going to be times we go through.

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Personal struggles sometimes

even personal tragedies.

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And we can borrow the faith

of someone else who has gone

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through something like that.

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And it stayed faithful.

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And we can look at them

and say, At least I know.

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I don't have to walk away.

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Even though it doesn't make sense to me.

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'cause I've seen models of

people who stay faithful.

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Yeah.

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So it might be more like

that depending on the person.

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Yeah, I I'm just thinking about.

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Faith community we have here and thinking.

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That, as one of the younger

guys, here's a lot of people.

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Who have experienced a lot of

things older than me and are

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still coming Sunday mornings.

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Right.

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And so that to me is a very

encouraging thing, especially as I.

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Spend time with them.

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I got to launch a coffee or something

and hear more of their stories because.

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I'm understanding more and more the

ways in which they've experienced a

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lot of life and difficulty in life.

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Yeah.

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And as a young person, that's just

so helpful for me building up.

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The ballast and there's not

something in my mind that.

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I've experienced in my life that I

would put in the category of a tragedy.

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But I know that it's not outside

of the realm of possibilities.

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And so what I'm trying to do now

is, is to develop that and ways.

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because I know that it will come.

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Yeah.

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I don't think you're wise.

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And I'm not saying this as a absolute

rule, but a lot of times the people who.

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Walk away from the faith.

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Are not practicing the faith in a

community with that kind of faithfulness.

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And so they don't have that balanced.

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And they don't have the support.

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So, again, that's not

an absolute statement.

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There are exceptions to that.

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Yeah.

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let me give two more here.

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One more minor one and then

one major one I want to end on.

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Minor one would be to

fake it until you make it.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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And we've heard that phrase right.

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And what I mean here is recognize

that you will have seasons of doubt.

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in your life, sometimes

they're going to be small.

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Sometimes they're going to maybe log.

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Very deep and very long.

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But you have a choice to stay engaged

and stay in a community and stay

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following Christ as best you can.

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In spite of those times.

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Even when you don't feel it, recognize in

your feelings are going to come and go.

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But you're not going to let them dictate.

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How you act.

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You're going to choose to add based upon

your will and what you want to be true.

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And what you think is true.

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Even if you don't feel it at the moment.

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What if that makes me

feel like an imposter.

310

Yeah, that's a good question.

311

I would say it depends on your

motive if you're doing it to get

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the Plaza or the people, or some

external reason like that, then yeah.

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You are an imposter.

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But if you're just doing it recognizing

honestly, I'm going to keep doing

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this, even though my emotions aren't

fully engaged, or I have some doubts.

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So I'm just going to keep at it.

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To me, that's not an imposter.

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That's just recognizing

that part of being a human.

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Is our emotions and our

certainty levels go up and down.

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and I think the definition of faith

from the last episode and that we're

321

carrying on through here is really

helpful here that it's not just

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faith is not just about certainty.

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Right.

324

But it's also an active Alation.

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So even continuing.

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Y you call it.

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Faking it till you make it.

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I would say.

329

Stick with it.

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So you make it, I mean, there's

a way to, stay committed even

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though your certainty goes down.

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Of course, there's so many metaphors here.

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But you don't do things that are valuable

just because you feel like doing them.

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You do them because they are.

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Good things to do.

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In fact, I heard a definition of maturity.

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That's that?

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Yeah.

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Sure it is not just doing good things

because you want to, but because

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they're the right thing to do.

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So I'm actually.

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Immature because sometimes

I don't do the dishes.

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Well, we're all immature.

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But, I mean, I think putting that here.

345

is helpful because.

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If you think that those things can

help carry you through certainty

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or your feelings fluctuate,

it still is an act of faith.

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Given the definition.

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That you've already given us.

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Yeah.

351

that's a good point, but the maturity in.

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I suppose in some ways it's something

like sticking in the marriage, even

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though you don't feel like it's

sometimes or sticking out important

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tasks, like writing a book or.

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Some other important tasks to you.

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You're not always going to feel.

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The desire to do that, or even

that it's valuable to do that.

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But you stick with it because you realize.

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Those feelings are going

to change eventually.

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Yeah.

361

Especially if you stick with it and

it's still doing something in you.

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Yeah.

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Good opening up the word or carving

out time to pray or going to

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church or small group or something.

365

It's still doing something in

you, even if you don't know it.

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And the aim is never just to

do it for the sake of doing it.

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But for the sake of the greater good.

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Which is fellowship with God and others.

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Yep.

370

And so.

371

Yeah, maybe I'm digressing a

little bit, but no, that's fine.

372

All right.

373

Let's talk about the last thing to me.

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The most important thing.

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Before we get there.

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Can you recap the first.

377

Sure.

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Three.

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Make sure you have ballots.

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Okay.

381

So ballast can be your own study of

scripture, your own walk with God.

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It can be.

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Experienced testimonies.

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Yeah, it could be experience.

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It could be testimony.

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You can borrow faith.

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If you need to.

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That may be part of that balance.

389

You a fake it till you make it.

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And then lastly, I would say.

391

The most important part is to

kind of change the metaphor.

392

Uh, what faith is.

393

I want to explain what I mean by that.

394

I think.

395

In my early years.

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And some people probably have this idea.

397

Faith is like a house of cards.

398

There's all these beliefs that

go together and they fit together

399

and they support each other.

400

there's all these beliefs about God

and the Bible and church tradition and

401

where my church teaches about Jesus.

402

they all support each other.

403

They each have one to have their place.

404

And what's the problem with, with

the house of cards metaphor though.

405

You take one card out.

406

Yeah.

407

And I feel like some people.

408

Have that faulty metaphor because

they feel like, okay, well, you

409

know, I can't believe Genesis one.

410

Is true, right.

411

And so they walk away from the

faith because then all of a sudden.

412

Well, yeah, the whole thing falls

down or they don't believe like

413

some part of the old Testament.

414

Or they have a problem with a part of the

old Testament, like, the conquest wars.

415

And I get that.

416

Or they have some other thing

that they feel like, okay,

417

I can't believe this idea.

418

This part of the Christian

teaching, therefore the whole

419

things comes tumbling down.

420

Now.

421

I think a better way of

thinking through that.

422

Is the idea of concentric circles.

423

So concentric circles, you got one

circle at the very center, right.

424

And the other circles around there.

425

Yeah.

426

And the center of this circle

is Jesus Christ himself.

427

Because state is not

primarily believing ideas.

428

It's trusting a person.

429

And their person is Jesus.

430

Now as we talked about last time.

431

You probably have to have some

beliefs about Jesus, that he

432

existed, that he rise rose from the

dead that he taught these things.

433

But the heart of it is trusting a person.

434

Even if you don't get all the rest.

435

The heart.

436

Of true faith.

437

Is Jesus at that center,

that middle circle.

438

The circle around which everything else.

439

Expands out of, and then the

second circle outside of that.

440

So around that.

441

Would be the teachings of Jesus.

442

So I believe Jesus.

443

It makes sense, therefore, to

believe the teachings of Jesus

444

that I see in the scriptures.

445

So the first circle is Jesus.

446

The second circle is

the teachings of Jesus.

447

And then

448

third circle would be.

449

The Bible teaching about the

most important issues generally.

450

So issues about God, about

the cross, about salvation.

451

About what it means to walk with God.

452

Those kinds of things at the very heart

of Christian belief from the Bible.

453

Those be that next circle.

454

The third circle.

455

Doctrines.

456

Theology's the major

teachings of the Bible.

457

Okay.

458

And then the fourth circle outside of that

would be the other teachings of the Bible.

459

And so outside of those doctrines,

I would put, for example, Issues

460

or chronology issues of, dating.

461

Issues of authorship of

certain particular books.

462

Harmonization.

463

That kind of thing.

464

Harmonization,

465

Or the place of spiritual gifts,

you know, doctrines like that.

466

Doctrines of the end times kind

of secondary secondary issues.

467

I mean, if you're a.

468

You know, amillennialist or

pre millennialist or something.

469

And you're beginning to doubt that

particular theory of eschatology.

470

Sorry.

471

I realized I just spit

out a lot of big words.

472

I mean, your, your faith

is not in those things.

473

Exactly.

474

And so you can believe

many people do that.

475

The Bible is mistaken about some

issue in Genesis or second Chronicles.

476

But you still believe in Jesus.

477

I'm not saying that's

where I am necessarily.

478

I'm just saying it's

certainly conceivable.

479

Yeah.

480

Um, And then outside of that,

that last circle would be.

481

Church's traditions and interpretations

of all the above all that's inside this.

482

Um, so the church can be dead wrong.

483

But that doesn't mean Jesus is.

484

The church has made up of fallible humans.

485

Oh, wow.

486

We're going to interpret things through

our very limited human knowledge.

487

And very obvious human sin and bias.

488

Right.

489

So we're not going to

get everything right.

490

But that's not the question.

491

The question is.

492

When I look at this

Jesus in the scripture.

493

Do I believe that he existed?

494

And that he went to the cross

for me, was resurrected.

495

And that, because of that, I can now

have a new relationship with God.

496

If I believe that.

497

That is what it means to be a Christian.

498

Especially if I, I think probably

include the second circle of

499

trying to follow his teachings.

500

To me, it seems consistent.

501

That those other circles

probably fit into place as true.

502

But it's not a house of cards.

503

It's a circle where I focused on Jesus.

504

And if I have an issue with some

of these other things for awhile,

505

It's not the end of the world.

506

It's not the end of my faith.

507

Yeah, so that the church can change

and that doesn't have to wreck us.

508

No, not at all.

509

That's so interesting because I feel like.

510

There's a lot of change going on

in the global church right now.

511

There's a lot of shifting and,

you know, New issues and culture.

512

Uh, I've just led people to

different sides of different

513

issues and that kind of thing.

514

But.

515

That doesn't have to move

us away from faith in Jesus.

516

No.

517

No.

518

And sometimes it can remind us

to focus on that faith in Jesus.

519

Instead of all the peripheral issues.

520

Because we can disagree with each other.

521

I can disagree with other christians

and other denominations, other

522

countries about certain doctrines.

523

Or even how to interpret

parts of the Bible.

524

But if we have a common belief and trust

in Jesus, And we are brothers and sisters.

525

Yeah.

526

So it's not that, that

other stuff doesn't matter.

527

No.

528

It's just not central.

529

It's not that it doesn't matter.

530

It does.

531

But it doesn't matter as much

as that first and second circle.

532

so first circle is Jesus.

533

Second one is Jesus teaching.

534

Third one is kind of those.

535

core teachings of the Bible.

536

What you might say is in the Apostle's

creed, city, apostles, creed.

537

Even knows, you're saying like,

what if I'm struggling with those.

538

I'm struggling with.

539

He descended into hell as a doctrine.

540

And that, that little line in

the Apostle's creed that I still

541

don't understand what it means.

542

Okay.

543

That's real, by the way.

544

I don't know what that means.

545

Um, it has more of the idea of

he descended to the underworld.

546

We're reading English.

547

They were using Hades, which would have

been a Greek word for just the underworld

548

in general, but I'm just saying, so,

549

I'm struggling with something in there.

550

I'm doubting one of the phrases that we

hold to be core teachings it consistent

551

with the historical global church.

552

Now, what does that mean for me?

553

It means you're struggling as a Christian.

554

To believe certain things about the Bible.

555

What about Christian teaching?

556

But it doesn't mean

you're not a Christian.

557

Okay.

558

I got another one.

559

All right.

560

Doctrine of.

561

Scripture.

562

Yeah.

563

You know, the term totally

authoritative versus inerrancy.

564

You know what, if I'm struggling

with the inerrancy of scripture.

565

That's fine.

566

I don't think that's An issue that

you base or lose your salvation on.

567

And I think.

568

If you read the scriptures.

569

Very thoughtfully.

570

You're going to have that struggle.

571

So you have to work through it.

572

One way or another.

573

But.

574

I think most.

575

Most pastors or most Bible teachers

who have really delved into the word.

576

Have had to wrestle with that

and come out one way or another.

577

And we don't all have to

come out at the same place.

578

so doctrines like, an

errancy or, or God's wrath.

579

I think is another one

that like, oh, that's it.

580

That's an uncomfortable idea.

581

Yeah.

582

And I'm glad you're bringing this up

because some of these are uncomfortable

583

to this and maybe the church has not.

584

Formulated these things in the

best terminology or ways, or even

585

understood them rightly and sometimes.

586

I mean, I think the

church is still learning.

587

I think we have.

588

A better understanding of some

things than previous generations.

589

Not because we're smarter, but just

because we're standing on their shoulders.

590

So.

591

If someone is like, okay, I

can't follow Christ because the

592

doctrine of the wrath of God just.

593

You know, I can't abide

that or I don't believe it.

594

I would say.

595

Keep faith in Christ.

596

Work through that one way or another.

597

But that's not the heart

of what it means to be a.

598

A Christ follower.

599

Yeah, you will work through

that one way or another.

600

Yeah.

601

You know, you're not just blowing

it off, but we're just saying.

602

You can struggle and you could

doubt some of those other issues.

603

And that doesn't mean

you're not a Christian.

604

It doesn't mean you've

lost your faith in Christ.

605

Yeah, and I like that you bring up

the point of just like that, the

606

benefit of living in this day and age.

607

The church has always been global,

but with the internet and that

608

kind of thing, we have a lot of

opportunities to hear from other voices.

609

And I think that with certain questions

about certain doctrines, we really have

610

the gift of being able to hear from

People with different faith traditions.

611

Yeah, that's such a good point.

612

I mean, go here.

613

The Eastern Orthodox on the wrath

of God, or go here, the Catholic

614

position on whatever, or go read the,

the Baptist statement of faith or the

615

Methodists or paleon or Anglican like

There's different ways of viewing

616

these, ideas and these concepts.

617

And I think that sometimes, especially

as a younger person, I'm learning.

618

Okay.

619

Some of the stuff that I learned early

on, Maybe there is more nuance to it.

620

Sure.

621

It's good and it's right.

622

And it's true.

623

but it needs, it needs to be

balanced with another czar

624

position or that kind of thing.

625

Yeah, exactly.

626

There's always, well, not always.

627

There's usually more

nuance than we understand.

628

You have to remember that.

629

We primarily get our knowledge

of these things through pastors.

630

But pastors are going to be.

631

Trying to communicate this at a

certain level with certain timeframes.

632

Yeah.

633

So.

634

Uh, professor teaching.

635

physics.

636

Or professor teaching, um, Quantum

mechanics at an undergraduate level.

637

Which is still a pretty high level.

638

It's not going to be able to

communicate all the nuances and

639

qualifications of what they're teaching.

640

Yeah.

641

And those people.

642

Even though they have those ideas

and they talk about those with other

643

people who got a PhD or whatever.

644

So as a pastor, I know.

645

I've got 30 minutes to

communicate the main idea of this.

646

But I also know in the back of my

mind, there are a lot of nuances,

647

qualifications, objections.

648

and responses to those objections.

649

They're not going to get into

because I can't, it's not going

650

to be rhetorically helpful.

651

Yeah.

652

It makes me think of those YouTube

videos that are like, Jacob Kali

653

or explains music theory at five

different levels like to five-year-old.

654

Oh yeah.

655

High school student to cost you

into doctoral student, you know, Um,

656

I know we've got to wrap this up.

657

I'm just curious, just in the last

few minutes, kind of pastorally,

658

we talked a lot about, okay.

659

if I'm struggling with.

660

I doubt.

661

You know what that looks like.

662

But just passed orally.

663

If somebody comes into your office.

664

and They say, okay, this is

what I'm struggling with.

665

And so I'm thinking about listeners who

are going to have somebody come into their

666

life and say, I'm struggling with this.

667

Like aside from the kind of four

practical things that you've given

668

that I think are really helpful.

669

what's your posture?

670

How are you walking

through that with them?

671

What does that process look

like for you to walk through?

672

Struggles of doubt with somebody else.

673

Yeah, that's a good question.

674

Well, the first thing I do is affirm them.

675

Very often people feel

guilty about doubts.

676

And I remind them as I put it.

677

Maybe I got this from somebody.

678

The doubt is the only soil

in which faith can grow.

679

Because if you have certainty, like

we talked about the last episode

680

of marketing, repeat all that.

681

If you have certainty,

you don't have faith.

682

Yeah, you have a site, you

have knowledge, but not Fe.

683

By its nature.

684

can only grow when you don't

have certainty, which applies.

685

You will have doubt.

686

So I hate when people feel

guilty about having doubts.

687

To me, that's just a fact that

they're committed, but their

688

mind is also engaged in it.

689

Yeah, there are some people who.

690

Uh, for whatever reason.

691

follow.

692

Christ and follow the church without

really thinking about it too much.

693

And that's fine.

694

I'm not there to judge them, but

I think it's great when people do.

695

And when you do follow Christ with

your mind, And that just with your will

696

or your heart, you will have doubts.

697

You'll have questions.

698

So that's what the first

thing I do is affirm them.

699

And second, I talked about some of

the things we just talked about here.

700

Yeah.

701

sometimes very often there'll

be a particular issue.

702

Well, you know, I just can't

believe it because I don't

703

believe this issue and I'll see.

704

I guess what you don't have to believe

that issue in that way to be a believer.

705

Let me give you some examples of people

who are really committed to Christ.

706

Who don't agree with my interpretation

My church is Interpretation, but

707

there are more on your side and there

there's brothers or sisters in Christ.

708

Yeah.

709

So I try to show them in a

practical way, kind of put that.

710

Away from that inner

circle, show them this.

711

Isn't a house of cards.

712

I think that very often is helpful.

713

And then third thing I tell them is.

714

You know, be patient.

715

There were times where

I've had some things.

716

Some intellectual problems

with the Bible or Christianity.

717

That I was not able to solve

in my mind for many years,

718

sometimes, maybe a decade or more.

719

But.

720

At this stage of my life, I look

back and say, you know what?

721

Pretty much, all those things.

722

I've come to understand.

723

I can be answered in a very godly

and wise way from the scriptures.

724

That just because I didn't know how

those things could be true at the time.

725

Does it mean.

726

That they couldn't be.

727

You just met.

728

My knowledge and my

wisdom in a certain time.

729

We're not able to comprehend it.

730

Yeah.

731

And I think there are still

some things that maybe I don't

732

really understand or fully.

733

Um, but I've learned to trust that

I've learned to be okay with that.

734

And that's what I've

tried to convey to them.

735

Wow.

736

Well, thanks.

737

Yeah.

738

Yeah.

739

That can be a very tender.

740

spot to be.

741

To walk through that with somebody else.

742

And, You know, the other,

we've been talking a lot about.

743

intellectual questions or

theological or doctrinal questions.

744

So it's kind of things

that can lead to sit down.

745

I think the other thing that we'll

have to spend future episodes on

746

is just experiential challenges.

747

When, when people experienced suffering.

748

And that leads them to

doubt how to deal with that.

749

And of course the church

has, we have a lot of giants.

750

On whom's shoulder.

751

I don't know how to say it

in the history of the church.

752

We have a lot of giants in the

history of the church who have sought

753

through, Based on their own experience

and on the experience of others.

754

How to think about the nature

of suffering in the world.

755

Yeah, we have a lot of

giants are strong people.

756

Who've gone through it and they can

carry us until we can walk ourselves.

757

Yeah.

758

And I think exploring

those questions of, okay.

759

How can I believe in God when all

this suffering is present in my

760

life and in the world, I think.

761

We'll be really good to spend

some time on in the future.

762

We'll get there.

763

Yeah.

764

Yeah, think personally like that

is one of the strongest objections.

765

To the existence of God would be.

766

The presence of evil and suffering.

767

And so just share that with the

listeners, because, as a pastor.

768

That is something that is hard.

769

True through.

770

And so we'll, we'll get there.

771

I would say as someone who has studied.

772

Some philosophy.

773

Who has been a pastor for over 30 years?

774

And as someone who has lost a son.

775

that is not only one

of the main questions.

776

That's an objection to Christianity,

but probably the strongest one.

777

Yeah.

778

So we'll, we'll spend

some time on that one.

779

Probably a few episodes, But

this is sufficient for now.

780

Yeah.

781

Yeah.

782

Well, thank you so much.

783

I feel like there's a lot of wisdom.

784

And those.

785

four.

786

practical ways that we can

think about, dealing with doubt.

787

Especially, the intellectual doubt and.

788

All of that.

789

Thank you so much.

790

My pleasure.

791

Yeah.

792

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793

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794

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795

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796

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