In this episode of Dare to Be More, we explore the evolving landscape of high-potential learning with James Adams, the High Potential Learning Leader at MLC School. We discuss how the school moves beyond traditional definitions of giftedness to support students across academic, creative, and physical domains.

In This Episode, You'll Discover:

• Why high potential is a flexible term that can manifest at different stages of a student's career

• How MLC School uses a holistic approach to identify students who need qualitatively different learning support

• What the concept of imagined academic futures means for young women entering the workforce

• Why deep learning within the classroom is more impactful than a reliance on external competitions

• How flexible ability grouping creates a culture of excellence and peer motivation

Key Topics Discussed:

• The difference between high potential and traditional gifted education

• Overcoming social-emotional barriers like perfectionism and imposter syndrome in high-achieving girls

• The role of academic self-efficacy in student success

• Balancing acceleration with genuine curriculum differentiation

• The importance of an all-girls environment for fostering academic ambition

Chapters

0:00 — Introduction & Meet James Adams

1:12 — Defining "High Potential"

3:55 — Identifying High-Potential Students

6:13 — Building Effective High-Potential Programs

8:43 — Benefits of an All-Girls Learning Environment

10:10 — Streaming & Flexible Ability Grouping

11:01 — Acceleration vs. Enrichment

13:41 — Avoiding Underperformance & Building Self-Efficacy

16:16 — Supporting Teachers in the Classroom

17:32 — Advice for Parents & Looking Ahead

Connect with MLC School:

• Website
• Facebook 
• Instagram 
• LinkedIn 

Host:  Anthony Perl

Production: Podcasts Done For You. For more information about podcast production services, visit podcastsdoneforyou.com.au.

Unlocking high potential with James Adams.

2

Welcome to Dare to be More, the podcast

from MLC School in Burwood, Sydney.

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Today, we're joined by James

Adams, the high potential

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learning leader at MLC School.

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Discover how the school identifies and

supports students with qualitatively

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different learning needs across

academic, creative, and physical domains.

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You'll hear about the flexibility

of the high potential term and how

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MLC School ensures every student is

stretched to reach their full capability.

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I'm your co-host, Anthony Pearl.

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Let's get into today's conversation

Well, hello everyone, and welcome to

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another episode of Dare to Be More.

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And I've got James with me today.

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We're gonna be talking about

high potential learning.

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James, thank you so much

for being on the program.

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James Adams: Thank you so much, Anthony.

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It is wonderful to be here.

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Anthony Perl: I guess we have to

kick things off by allowing you to

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introduce yourself to everybody.

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James Adams: Wonderful.

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So I started at MLC School in August

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potential learning leader in both the

junior school and the senior school.

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Anthony Perl: This whole idea of

high potential learning, I suppose

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is, does everyone has potential?

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Can they reach the high potential?

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And is high potential learning just

referring to a certain group of

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people who are in an exceptional

category, or has everyone got that?

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James Adams: So the term high potential,

as we use it in education, is a very

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flexible and broad term, and it recognizes

that theoretically every student's

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capable of high potential when given

enough practice and excellent teachers.

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When we use it in pa- particularly my line

of work, it really does focus on students

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who have qualitatively different learning

needs and really do need to be stretched.

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But there is that recognition that

it is a somewhat flexible term,

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whereby students can demonstrate

high potential perhaps later in their

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learning career or even earlier.

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Anthony Perl: I guess that's

the big thing, isn't it?

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That everyone moves at their own pace, so

the definition of high potential for one

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may be different- Mm … to the definition

of where it might land for someone else.

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James Adams: Mm-hmm.

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There's certainly different

domains of high potential.

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For example, there's academic

high potential in particular

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subjects, but there's also creative

expression and that creativity

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in high potential in that space.

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And even physical high potential, or in

terms of social-emotional understanding,

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there's high potential there as well.

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Anthony Perl: I guess that brings an

interesting point into this discussion,

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is when you're talking about high

potential, is it really about recognizing

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pa- certain areas where to focus in on?

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Because someone who might be very

good in creative endeavors may

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not be so good in the scientific

endeavors, for argument's sake.

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Or someone may be better in, in,

you know, s- music, for example.

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And so there's, there's different areas.

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So is it about really focusing

on the one area, or does it

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have to be across the board?

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James Adams: The first thing I'd say is

it is in with- within at least one area.

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So, you don't have to be an all-arounder

to be identified as high potential.

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And the really important thing is we don't

want to get distracted with semantic games

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whereby we use the term high potential and

try and really focus on what that means

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in very specific terms, and compare it

to other terms such as gifted, which also

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have other societal or cultural baggage.

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And so, the phrase I always like to use is

a quote from Forrest Gump, which is, "High

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potential is as high potential does."

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And so, it's very easy and able to be

identified, but trying to define it in

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a very precise way becomes challenging.

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Anthony Perl: You'd probably throw another

Forrest Gump quote in there in trying to

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identify them in the first place, 'cause

you c- it's like a box of chocolates,

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you never know what you're gonna get.

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James Adams: 100%, well said.

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Anthony Perl: Tell me a little bit

about the identification process.

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I mean, how do we actually work that out?

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Who is going to fall into that

category of high potential?

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And then obviously from there, what does

that actually mean once you identify them?

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James Adams: Yeah, so the advantage of

using the term high potential rather

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than gifted is a certain flexibility

in identifying students who need that

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qualitatively different learning support.

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So for example, students could

be demonstrating high potential

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within a certain subject area

later in their schooling.

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And so we always need to be

vigilant with identifying students

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and using multiple metrics, both

qualitative and quantitative.

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So this includes things like standardized

test scores, as well as school

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assessments, and often that can create

very interesting insights by be- by

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comparing school assessment data with

these standardized test scores and seeing

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if there's any discrepancies there.

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But it also includes qualitative

metrics such as samples of student

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work and teacher recommendations.

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And so you have to have this holistic

approach to student identification

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to ensure that we are identifying the

right students at the right times.

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Anthony Perl: And I imagine

there is some discrepancy

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between what test results- Yeah

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might give and what might happen

from seeing what's happening in

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classroom and normal assignments

and things that you're doing.

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Because some people operate better

under exam pressure than, than others,

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so potential can go unnoticed if

you're only relying on test scores.

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James Adams: Absolutely.

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We don't want to think of high potential

as simply good test takers, and you

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want to have that holistic perspective.

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But also at the same time, when we

think about why are we focusing on these

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students, where are we trying to get

them, the reality is that they do have to

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sit exams at the end of year 12, whether

doing the IB or the HSC, and there is

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that practical element of we do hopefully

want them to perform well and excel.

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Anthony Perl: So talk to me a little

bit about the programs themselves.

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So you've identified someone who's

in that high potential category.

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What's the process like?

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I mean, even before you get them into a

program, how do you approach the student?

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How do you approach the family?

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And then where are they going?

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What are they doing different?

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James Adams: So the really important

thing to think about is l- what are the

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characteristics of a really effective

high potential program at a school

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that's really doing wonderful work?

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And the first thing I'd like to talk

about is features that often fall short

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of what we would like to accomplish.

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If you often talk a- to different schools

about what high potential or gifted

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education programs they provide, they

often list several different sort of

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external competitions such as The Da Vinci

Decathlon, the Tournament of Minds, the

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Ethics Olympiad, and there's many, many

of these different external competitions

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across the single calendar year.

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And so that, in many ways, in

many schools, is their high

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potential or gifted program.

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In times like these, I often

think about a really wonderful

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Latin phrase, which is multum non

multa, which means much, not many.

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And I think this reliance that many

schools have on various external

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competitions is often emblematic that

not enough is being done within schools,

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and it often is very fragmentary

where, you know, competitions are

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really fun, the students get an

adrenaline rush, the parents get

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the photo opportunity, but it isn't

necessarily leading to deep learning.

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And so really powerful, impactful,

high-potential programs actually often

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are a single program that provides

these external competi- competitions

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beneath them within a holistic program.

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Anthony Perl: I suppose the next

thing is when you start getting into

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that level of detail and you start

creating these programs, what does

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day-to-day look like for a student?

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How does it, how is it different

to what everyone else is doing?

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James Adams: So it's important to

differentiate between things that

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are done within the curriculum,

within the classroom, and then

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also things that are done outside.

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And my initial answer was more

focused on the things that we provided

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outside the typical curriculum.

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Within the curriculum, within the

classroom, we're looking for opportunities

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to extend students both in terms of

depth, but also in terms of complexity.

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And so we want those students to be

really challenged to think about really

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challenging tasks that are more complex.

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But also at the same time, we want

to really focus on that breadth

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of understanding and talking about

exploring topics more deeply.

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Anthony Perl: Talk to me a little

bit about the advantages of having

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this kind of program and being

in an all-girls environment.

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James Adams: Mm-hmm.

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So the advantage of high-potential

programs like this at an all-girls school

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is that it allows us to target unique

academic and social emotional areas

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that are frequently barriers for girls

and young women in, in their schooling.

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So, for example, female students,

particularly high-achieving students,

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frequently experience unique challenges

such as imposter syndrome, perfectionism,

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anxiety, underestimation of their ability,

and something which I also talk- call

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limited academic imagined futures.

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And finally, also a

hesitancy towards STEM.

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So, with these programs, what we can do is

really target these particular challenges

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that our girls face in, in a really safe

and small group learning environment

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to really challenge them to excel.

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Anthony Perl: So, you think it

makes a real difference that

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it's an all girls environment?

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Mm.

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Particularly for after school when

they're going into a mixed environment- Mm

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uh, particularly in the workforce.

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James Adams: Absolutely.

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So, not only do we wanna challenge them

to access really difficult concepts,

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which they're learning either at

university or in the workplace, but

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we actually also want to give them the

confidence of having a voice, occupying

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space, and really being ambitious in

their discussions or in their careers.

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Anthony Perl: Streaming is a

term that we hear quite often.

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So, how does that play out, particularly

in this area of high potential learning?

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James Adams: So, the importance

of streaming or flexible ability

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grouping is that it gives staff the

ideal conditions to challenge high

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potential students within the classroom.

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And there's two broad mechanisms

that allow streaming or high flexible

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ability grouping to be really effective.

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The first is that it allows teachers

to be really targeted in their

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instruction, and to really challenge

students at their point of need.

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But secondly, there's also a motivational

or aspirational aspect to it, whereby

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peers who are surrounded by like-minded

peers sort of have a culture of excellence

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and motivation, I would also say even

competition, to push themselves further,

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which is incredibly powerful as well.

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Anthony Perl: Talk to me a little bit

then about differentiation and also

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going into acceleration and enrichment.

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These are terms that I think are used

quite often, but I'm not sure if people

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really understand- What they actually

mean and, and also how that actually

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impacts high-potential learning.

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What, where it- where

do they fit into that?

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Yeah.

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James Adams: So I'll talk a

little bit about acceleration.

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Acceleration can be an incredibly

powerful tool, and we- when we talk

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about acceleration, we can mean either

whole year grade skipping, where

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students often skip a grade, or we often

mean subject-specific acceleration,

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where they maybe are accelerated and

skip a year of a particular subject.

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The first thing I'd like to say is that

acceleration can be really powerful when

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used precisely and appropriately, and it

can be particularly powerful in subjects

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such as mathematics, where there's a

very clear distinction when a student

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has a really superior understanding of

a topic and needs to be accelerated.

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However, I would actually say that we can

become over-reliant on acceleration as a

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tool of differentiation, particularly when

we talk about whole year grade skipping,

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and that actually acceleration, especially

if we use it blindly, can actually

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be a sign of failure to differentiate

for high-potential students within the

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classroom, and therefore schools perhaps

feel the need to accelerate as their

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only path to challenging these students.

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Anthony Perl: So in terms of all of this,

I guess the question then comes back

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and say, well, we've talked about these

students that are given this opportunity,

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but what's the counter of that?

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What are the challenges that it may be

faced with them being accelerated or,

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you know, taking advantage of these

high-potential learning opportunities?

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Does that exclude them socially?

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Does that carry its own baggage?

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James Adams: So with all

these programs, there's always

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decisions that have to be made.

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For example, we're often limited by space.

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So for example, with flexible ability

grouping, we do have to create

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classes, and therefore students

are put in one class or another.

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However, if it's done appropriately and

equitably, there is actually a possibility

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of achieving excellence through equity

and ensuring that each student is

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receiving the appropriate challenge in

their classroom so that we n- meet the

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needs of every single girl in our school.

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Anthony Perl: So is there a

risk of underperforming if these

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students aren't identified?

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And what does that mean?

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Have we seen that traditionally?

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Because this is a newer idea really,

this high-performance learning.

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James Adams: So research very recently

has identified that high-potential

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students in Australia are frequently

underperforming, and as a school, we

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really want to ensure that every girl

is being challenged at a point of need.

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meaningfully.

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And so it's really important that we

create these cultures of excellence,

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of intrinsic motivation, that every

girl is really pushing themselves

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to reach their full potential.

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Anthony Perl: So I suppose what

you're talking about overall is

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an environment for learning that

enriches each girl at their own level.

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James Adams: Absolutely.

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I think the term that I always like using

is imagined academic futures, this idea

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that in the future there's, uh, incredible

things that I can become, that I can

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achieve, and ensuring that girls at MLC

School believe that genuinely, and that

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through hard work they can accomplish

great things, whether it's within school,

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within university, within the workforce.

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That's ultimately the

most important thing.

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The really fancy term in the literature

is called academic self-efficacy, this

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belief that through your own hard work you

can accomplish great things and improve.

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That's the most important

thing within schools.

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Absolutely.

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Anthony Perl: So tell me a little bit

about this whole idea of creating an

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environment that is going to have an

impact then in terms of the workforce.

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How do we actually see that

playing out as a result of being

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in this kind of environment?

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James Adams: So unfortunately, there

are still systemic inequalities in both

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post-secondary education and in the

workplace, and the most important thing is

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creating rigorous academic opportunities

and programs where female students can

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feel safe taking risk and dealing with

ambiguity and challenging themselves so

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that they're prepared in universities,

in the workplace, to really take on

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these uncertainties- With confidence

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Anthony Perl: So talk to me a little bit

then about the challenges that teachers

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face in being able to, uh, deliver for

this, because there's a lot that's put

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in their, in their basket of things

that they have to do, particularly if

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you're now saying, "Okay, we're not

just delivering on the curriculum,

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we're also going to have to accommodate

at, at this end for high learners."

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So what's, what's it

like for the teachers?

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How do they actually accommodate this?

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How much do- extra do they have to do to

be able to put them in a position to help?

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James Adams: So the very first thing

to create conditions of success here

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is to create the correct structural

conditions in a school to ensure that

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teachers can effectively differentiate

for their high potential learners.

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And that includes things such as

flexible ability grouping or streaming,

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whereby students of similar ability

and similar potential are in the

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same classroom so that teachers

can effectively differentiate for a

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particular group of students rather

than trying to prepare multiple

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lesson plans, multiple activities,

and try and meet students from diverse

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abilities within a single classroom.

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And so when you remove that barrier, it

actually enables teachers to really master

272

their craft and be much more impactful

to meet students where they're at.

273

Anthony Perl: I think just to kind

of wrap up some of this conversation,

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from a parent's perspective, you know,

what is it that they should be doing?

275

How do they respond to either their,

their child is identified as being a high

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potential learner, or I imagine there

are plenty of parents who are going, they

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really want their child to be identified.

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How come they haven't been?

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How do parents respond?

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What should that-- What's

some advice for them?

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James Adams: So the most important

thing is recognizing that we need

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to have a long-term perspective, and

that even though present learning

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needs are- Obviously important factor.

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We're naturally thinking about where

every girl will be at the end of

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year 12, and so having that long-term

perspective is a really important

286

part of the development process in

achieving high potential in the future.

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High potential isn't something that we

just possess in the present, it's actually

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a process we achieve in the future.

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And so having that long-term, big-picture

thinking is the most important thing

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we can think about as a parent, as

students, and as teachers going forward.

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Anthony Perl: And speaking of going

forward, I mean, how do you see this

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whole idea of high-potential learning,

in a broader sense, playing out and

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developing further in the coming years?

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James Adams: High-potential learning

is a really interesting beast.

295

It's a really interesting

area to be involved in.

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And the reason is because within New

South Wales in particular, there's an

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increasing focus on it, both within

public schools, within selective

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schools, within private schools.

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And I think it's be- gonna be- only become

more and more important because often

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when we talk about meeting the needs

of students, our tendency is to always

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focus on students who need additional

support, which is incredibly important.

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But also there's many, many, many students

who have qualitatively different needs at

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the top end, and that we actually really

do need to be differentiating for them.

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And so I think that, especially

given the intense amount of selective

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schools in Australia, the intense

amount of really high-performing

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public schools, we therefore really

need to differentiate our practice

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for our top students in our classes.

308

Anthony Perl: And just to wrap things

up, the question that we like to ask

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everyone who appears on the show is,

Dare to be More is the name of the

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show, it's the motto of the school.

311

How does Dare to be More fit into the

equation for high-potential learning?

312

How do you see that correlation?

313

James Adams: High-potential learning is

all about really challenging students to

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be all that they can be in the long term.

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And that includes things such as

thinking about what they want to study

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at university, what career path they

want, and recognizing that they can

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accomplish all these great things

through hard work, through applying

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themselves, and really having that

really big-picture, aspirational goals

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in their learning and in their career

paths, and recognizing that they can

320

accomplish these things through hard work.

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Anthony Perl: Fantastic.

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What a great way to approach

that idea of Dare to be More.

323

I love it.

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Thank you so much for being

a part of the program.

325

Really appreciate the insights, and I

think that anyone listening in today

326

will have got some incredible ideas

about how the identifying kids for

327

their high-potential learning and the

programs that are being done in the

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school can really make a huge difference

to them, and it's something to embrace.

329

James Adams: It was

wonderful talking to you.

330

Thank you so much.

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Anthony Perl: Thank you for

joining us on Dare to Be More.

332

If you enjoyed this episode, please

subscribe wherever you get your

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podcasts so you never miss an episode.

334

Your likes and comments also

help more families discover

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these valuable conversations.

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For more information about MLC school

and their approach to girls' education,

337

visit their website at mlcsyd.nsw.edu.au.

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Check out the show notes

for more information.

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The Dare to Be More podcast is

produced by Podcast Done For You.

340

I'm your host, Anthony Pearl,

and we invite you to join us next

341

time as we continue to explore

what it means to dare to be more