·      Current events, menopause, and beverages. 0:08

o  Denise Bolds shares her drink of choice, French onion bone broth, and discusses its benefits for intermittent fasting.

o  Ravae Sinclair share her drink of choice, sweet tea with Apple Crown Royal. 

·      Breastfeeding organization's apology for promoting expensive postpartum service. 2:24

o  Organization apologizes for inflammatory blog post and seeks context for further harm assessment.

o  Executive director criticizes luxury breastfeeding facility for excluding marginalized communities.

o  Ravae Sinclair highlights the importance of recognizing health equity issues in lactation support, particularly for families who cannot afford postpartum convalescent places like Boram.

o  Denise Bolds agrees and suggests that the article could have provided more community resources for lactation support beyond Boram, to make it more accessible and inclusive for all families.

·      Doula skills and techniques for new doulas. 9:38

o  Doulas seek advice on how to build trust and communication with clients beyond initial interviews.

o  Doula uses prenatal questionnaire and checklists to help families prepare for meetings and educate them on birth preferences.

·      Doula skills, active listening, and prenatal questionnaires. 13:28

o  Ravae Sinclair uses the prenatal questionnaire to gather information about the client's preferences and expectations, while also assessing their listening and communication skills.

o  Denise Bolds emphasizes the importance of doulas being good listeners and assessors, and bringing balance to the conversation to ensure both partners are heard and involved in the decision-making process.

o  Doulas should prioritize active listening and making the conversation about the birthing family to build trust and rapport.

o  Zoom can still provide valuable information through body language and facial expressions, even when cameras are turned off or not fully engaged.

o  Parents share personal experiences and concerns during prenatal questionnaire, with the goal of creating a space for self-expression and decision-making.

·      Giving undivided attention during virtual calls. 21:02

o  Speakers emphasize the importance of giving undivided attention to clients during virtual meetings, even if it means finding a quiet space or turning off distractions.

o  Doulas should prioritize clients' needs and demonstrate their focus and expertise to instill confidence and trust.

·      Celebrity postpartum behavior and pressure to "snap back". 23:54

o  Ravae Sinclair notes the trend of celebrities and influencers promoting immediate postpartum exercise, despite the potential risks to new mothers' health and well-being.

o  Denise Bolds shares their personal experience of having a supportive village during their pregnancy and birth, contrasting with the lack of support many millennial clients face today.

o  Naomi Osaka returned to the gym just a week after giving birth, sparking concerns about the pressure to snap back to pre-baby body quickly.

o  Chrisean, a social media personality, also returned to the gym after having a baby, with some people praising her for her quick recovery and others criticizing her for promoting unrealistic beauty standards.

·      Postpartum care and pressure to return to pre-birth shape. 29:10

o  Ravae Sinclair emphasizes the importance of taking time to heal after childbirth, highlighting the higher mortality rate for black and brown women during the first 42 days post-birth.

o  Denise Bolds discusses the pressure on new mothers, particularly those with endorsements and contracts, to return to their pre-pregnancy state quickly, citing the need to challenge this cultural expectation.

·      Postpartum care and the challenges faced by black women. 32:00

o  Denise Bolds emphasizes the importance of postpartum recovery for Black women, highlighting the multiple physiological changes their bodies undergo during birth and the need for rest and self-care.

o  Denise Bolds argues that Black women should not be expected to return to their pre-pregnancy state immediately after birth, but rather should prioritize their own healing and well-being.

o  Ravae Sinclair discusses the challenges faced by women athletes, particularly those under contract with companies like Nike (Tori Bowie and Allison Felix), who may feel pressure to get back in shape quickly after childbirth.

o  Denise Bolds shares the story of Tori Bowie, a long-distance runner who passed away after giving birth, highlighting the need to address the mental and physical toll of pregnancy and childbirth on athletes.

·      Postpartum care and body image after childbirth. 38:09

o  Ravae Sinclair shares a story about influencer, Chrisean, a young mom who was criticized for not knowing how to use a baby carrier, highlighting the importance of village mentality and using our influence for good.

o  Denise Bolds shares their own experience with postpartum care, mentioning that their mom was protective but also taught them how to breastfeed and recognize their baby's cues.

o  Denise Bolds emphasizes the importance of self-care during the postpartum phase, encouraging new mothers to "get to know yourself again" and embrace their new identity.

o  Ravae Sinclair agrees, noting that external motivations to look a certain way can distract from the importance of rest and self-care during this time.

·      Postpartum care and self-care for black women. 44:12

o  Black women's bodies are complex and carry epigenetics and PTSD, leading to overextension and postpartum struggles.

o  Denise Bolds emphasizes the importance of considering strategy when deciding how to spend time and money at conferences as a birth worker.

·      Conference attendance for doulas. 47:39

o  Denise Bolds emphasizes the importance of contact hours and continuing education units for black birth workers, citing the need for leverage in the industry.

o  Denise Bolds evaluates the conference theme and speaker lineup, looking for alignment with their expertise and the needs of black and brown doulas.

o  Doulas must navigate conferences to build leverage, skills, and reputation.

o  Ravae Sinclair emphasizes the importance of attending conferences to learn about research and its practical applications in birth work.

o  Ravae Sinclair encourages doulas to continue seeking education and networking opportunities, even during the pandemic.

·      Improving Black conferences and birth worker training. 54:13

o  Ravae Sinclair encourages Black conference attendees to prioritize quality over quantity, seeking diverse perspectives and resources to elevate the field of Black birth work.

o  Denise Bolds highlights the need for Black birth workers to have leverage and competency, which requires raising the bar of expectation for conference presentations and resources.

·      Access and leverage for black doulas in the industry. 57:15

o  Ravae Sinclair struggled to obtain continuing education credits from a conference, requiring multiple emails and effort.

o  Ravae Sinclair emphasizes the importance of credentials for access to spaces and places, highlighting the need for organizations to understand and respect the value of these credentials.

o  Denise Bolds discusses the importance of leverage for Black doulas, citing their lack of representation in continuing education and the need for accessible, approved conferences to increase their credibility and earning potential.

o  Ravae Sinclair shares their frustration with a conference that failed to deliver on promised contact hours, highlighting the need for improved execution and communication from event organizers.

·      The importance of in-person continuing education for doulas. 1:02:51

o  Ravae Sinclair emphasizes the importance of continuing education for doulas, citing personal experience with delayed credentialing impacting their work.

o  Ravae Sinclair encourages doulas to prioritize in-person conferences for maximum learning experience and professional growth.

·      Black birth workers and their experiences. 1:05:08

o  Denise Bolds emphasizes the importance of in-person connections for birth workers, citing emotional relief and connection as key benefits.

o  Denise Bolds, owner of Black Women Do VBAC, highlights the value of virtual trainings for Black and Brown doulas, emphasizing the need for accredited contact hours and a safe space for community building.

o  Danielle Lugrand is a certified doula, midwife, and peanut ball Ambassador with her own maneuver named after her.

o  Speakers are proud of Danielle's achievements and admire her work in the birth community.

·      Black birth worker organization and Changemaker award. 1:10:07

o  Ravae Sinclair is excited that NAABB received the Changemaker award from the Academy of Integrative Health and Medicine for their work with promoting Black midwives and birth worker leadership.

o  Denise Bolds expresses their love for NAABB and its mission to advance Black birth practices.

o  Denise Bolds highlights the work of NAABB, a Black birth worker organization, providing scholarship opportunities, social media engagement, and a "Black Birthing Bill of Rights" for their clients.

o  Ravae Sinclair announces the launch of a new podcast component that they would answer doula questions where they will answer questions from listeners and provide support to new doulas in the space.

Show Links & Resources

National Birth & Postpartum Professionals-www.natlbirthpostpartumpros.com

Black Women Do VBAC- https://www.blackwomendovbac.com/

Boram- https://boramcare.com/

Link to Breastfeeding classes- https://www.birth-connections.com/services/

Chrisean’s Birth video on Instagram- https://www.instagram.com/p/CwwArcesvXo/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

NAABB’s website and link to Black Birthing Bill of Rights- https://thenaabb.org/black-birthing-bill-of-rights/

Academy of Integrative Health & Medicine (AIHM)-https://aihm.org/

Lugrand Sheet Pull -https://www.facebook.com/PremierBirthTools/posts/have-you-seen-this-trick-of-sheets-for-pushing-this-was-invented-by-one-of-our-p/7743879435683323/?locale=ms_MY&paipv=0&eav=AfZbF_snHrcd3DquKYyzZR8eee6ooPJxs6xbEveAZvJvfr5ZYfaMmoyeKMHhqkQoga4&_rdr

Doulathatpodcast@gmail.com

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How to find us:

Ravae Sinclair @birthconnections and natlbirthpostpartumpros

Denise Bolds @BoldDoula and @blackwomendovbac

Website: www.doulathatpodcast.com

IG:@doulathatpodcast

Platforms: Apple, Spotify, Stitcher & Google

Okay, well hi, everybody. I'm Ravae.

Hi. Hi. I'm Denise Bolds. Hi.

And we are doing that with you today. So we're excited to have you. Today we have kind of a, I don't know, like a smorgasbord of topics to cover. So let's dive in. So first question I have for you, Denise, is what's in your cup.

What's in my cup here? I have a French onion bone broth. I am protein. It's helping me with my intermittent fasting that I'm doing. And I really love it. It's very tasty and it's in my Be bold mug.

Oh, yes, I actually love my mug. I use it earlier today. The one you sent me the same time but we were Libra on today. Libra season.

Yes. Today's the day Libra Eclipse. Big time for you Libra.

I can't wait to see what happens. Okay, so since I asked so what's in my cup? is sweet tea. All right. A little bit of Apple Crown Royal.

Oh, nice. Nice and you sitting up there and good old Georgia peach Atlanta there. So Hey, baby. That's the perfect drink right now for you. You doing all right.

Yeah. I need a little assistance today. So

yeah, have a sip for me. Because my menopause. I cannot do that alcohol. So enjoy. Enjoy. Enjoy.

I got you. I probably shouldn't be doing it either. But you know, I'll call you all about the all the After Effects. You'll hear all about it. Okay, all right. So what's hot? What's new? What came up today in the news in the like, birdie world. You sent me a text about? And it was like a apology letter or a retraction from USLCA.

Yeah, they had something happened there with their management company. And a blog went out. And I tried to find you and I tried to find that blog on social media, it's been retracted. But there was a blog that went out. And apparently some people found the blog to be inflammatory. So they had to pull it down and issue an apology from the actual executive director of the organization.

Now, here's the thing. Okay, so this is a breastfeeding organization. Yeah. And it sounds like so first of all, if anybody has a copy of this blog, send it to us. And we'll put our email address in the show notes. But like, it's so tough when you get these kind of stale apologies, which we all know, I've been a part of a couple of them, it's really hard when you don't have the original, the original post or wherever the faux pas happened, because it's really hard to put it into context, you know, so you're sending us this letter via email to members who may or may not have seen it. And now we're like, Well, who are you? Because somebody approved it? So like, we want to know, What did you say and who thought it was okay to say that. But really the importance of putting the ... because I think as an organization, sometimes you're trying to figure out, do we leave the inflammatory thing out there so that it can further offend? Do we put it out with the item with the apology so people can put it into context? It can be hard to know what to do in order to not create further harm. But it's also really difficult for us to assess whether we want to stay members of the organization, whether we want to be affiliated because we don't even know what crazy stuff you said.

Well, it goes back to what my mom used to do. Honey Pot was Virgo, and she's something else. Oh, you apologized. She wanted to know, what are you apologizing for? You don't just say oh, you know, I'm sorry for offending, you. No!, I'm sorry for when I said and I said I spoke out of turn. Well, I spoke to you and in whatever what she wants you to really itemize what you apologize for now, here in this letter. The executive director says the post amplified a message that ultimately advertised a for profit program, while diminishing the value of hospital lactation care professionals in New York and across the country. And uplifted a service that may not be feasible for all lactating families.

Okay, so for those of you who don't know what Boram is. It's a facility, like they said, privately owned, that you can go to after you've had your baby in New York City. Sounds like they only have one occation in the US, and it's expensive. It is like, very expensive. It's for like those of financial means. And it sounds like they really praise what Boram was doing around lactation. And yeah, making it difficult for people who...like acting like, everybody can access this, the service and they can't.

They cannot. And you know from what they're saying here and that explanation, which I'm glad they did put that in there, because it does open up, what we need to understand is that our families have local breastfeeding and lactation resources in their communities. I'm a breastfeeding educator. So you are you, Ravae. There's tons of things. And I've had some of my clients, take my breastfeeding classes, and then go to Boram and do their postpartum. And they feel like they're in the lap of luxury, because they're really about more of the esteem things, rather than sticking with the bare bones of the people right there in your community that you have. My families can't, once they're discharged from Boram, they can't go back there. Yeah, they have to revert back to their communities.

Right. And okay, and so because their apology speaks to an issue around health equity, that's a pointed to a facility that really everyone can access because of finances. I don't know what's what's a what's a really good solution. One solution is, it's okay to highlight a beautiful resource that might be only for one group of people. I mean, it could have been just for Black women, or just for Latina women. Like, if they're doing great, then let's highlight that. But also because it was a blog article, you're in that space, you can create balance here, the sign of the Libra create the balance by also highlighting other resources, like being able, when you're writing this article, recognize that this is a high end resource, and that people who are reading it, you shouldn't discount, yes, what's happening in the hospitals. Although hospital lactation does leave something to be desired in probably all of our communities, and focus on the community resources. So focus on and have a resource list that is attached to your article with all the online lactation support, like what like our classes, what you and I offer, we're not the only ones with community centers that have lactation resources, ibclcs, and CLCs, and CLES. And CLS is and all the CL whatever credentials that actually might be in your community in that particular community, which was New York City, like that's how you can highlight something and recognize the health equity issue and find balance by creating resources so that you're not lopsided in the information that you're giving.

Absolutely, absolutely. And just so people understand Boram is a postpartum convalescent place where families can go after they're discharged from the hospital with their newborns, this service is 1000s of dollars. You have chefs, you have massage therapists, you have lactation, you have round the clock nursing, you have baby care and newborn care specialist, this all cost a lot of money for people who can afford this 1000s of dollars to stay for a week, at a time, some people stay for a month, and it cost them you know, 1000s of dollars per week times four. So this is not something that's a resource for everyone, to be honest with you. And to be honest with you, I don't think it's such a resource for families really, because once you leave Boram, you still have to come home and re acclimate all over again. So to me, it is just postponing what needs to happen naturally.

Right! And so the article could have definitely highlighted that farm is doing a good job. And also made sure that people talked about preparation for lactation before you actually birth preparation, you know, lactation to get re educated once baby is here. And again, just provided that that resource, that community resource link, so that people could be thinking beyond Boram, right, like, if that's out of reach for them because again, it's a health equity issue, speak to it in your resource in your article with other other layers and levels of support. So anyway, they had a blind spot, I hope that they learned something.

teachable moment.

Teachable moment exactly. Okay, what else? Okay, so we are going to talk about Doulaing That! a few things. So one thing you know, it's one thing to be a part of like a birth related organization. I think once you get out of your training, I think sometimes we lose our skills or we are confronted with something that wasn't covered in our workshop or how heck, for some of us, our workshop happened so long ago, we had no idea. We don't even know if our trainer covered it, right? It's so so we, you know, it's normal to have like gaps in skills and not a lot of people are connected to a place where or resource or mentor who can help them get some questions answers. So we're going to help you and every one of our episodes to talk through some doula skills. So, Denise, what do you have for us in terms of doula skills?

Well, for doula skills, you know, we have a lot of doulas coming into the fold. And there is a lot of hesitation on understanding how to engage in that conversation on either the consultation or the initial intake with your doula client. Some people are not natural talkers. I'm a talker I can I can talk for days. And some people have a little bit of a challenge on getting that conversation started like an icebreaker getting to know you really starting to build that really bridge of communication and trust with their with their potential client and that's something that new doulas are really asking about.

Okay. So we're talking about after you've done the interview, they've signed the contract, and the money has been paid. Doulas are wondering: how do I get the conversation started? How do we get to know one another outside of and beyond the interview? Okay, so what do you-- I have a recommendation--I think it's similar to yours, what do you recommend for new doulas?

Well, for new doulas, I do recommend that they have a mentee, a mentor, excuse me. And that mentor really helps them on those communication skills, whether it be doing role playing, having vignettes to go over. But for me with my mentees, I share with them from my toolkit, I share with them my Doula checklist, my intake checklist, my consultation checklist, it's a great way to promote conversation.

Okay, I love that. I think that that's fantastic. So I the what I use to help break the ice and get to know a family, well, really, it starts in the interview, I have a very conversational interview. So when we have our first prenatal after contract has been signed, money has been deposited, and we scheduled our first prenatal, I do send them before the the meeting, a prenatal questionnaire. And I send them a checklist of options for birth preferences. So these are fillable documents that are emailed, they're able to take a look and review and fill out and I tell them, It's no pressure, like, fill it out. I love if you fill it out, you can always fill it out later. But what I like for them to do is to come to the meeting with a sense of what we're going to talk about. I feel like people have a lot of nervousness and they're uncertain about like, how to handle having a doula many of them have never had one before. And so I use it as a guy at so that they can have something to hold on to because sometimes people like pieces of paper, they want to have something in their hand to help them be prepared for the meeting. So a lot of times they will fill it out, send it to me, and basically our first chat is going over what they wrote. So it's a it's a like, if we go over the birth preferences, it's my chance to help educate them on things that they marked on the list that they're like, We have no clue what this is. We laugh about it, I tell them okay, so this might make you squeamish, squirmish or whatever. But this is not an added on they say oh, okay, and it compounds all the little places of connection and laughter. And I learn their story behind their why like their why behind a particular birth preference. And then I get to go into a deeper, I often learn a little bit more about other pregnancies, or what happened with their sister and maybe what stuck in their head around a particular thing. I also hear a little bit about their doctor say, Oh, well, my doctor said I couldn't do that. Because XYZ so I have a sense of like what their medical practice might be like. So it's just a warm up. It gives me a good sense of who they are, and maybe what I'm walking into with them. And the prenatal questionnaire has different kinds of questions more personal, like what do you want your birth to look and feel like, energetically? What do you envision Me to do for you on your birthing day? So we can start to tap a little bit into like, what they expect of me. And sometimes if there's some misnomers, I can correct that. But I use the checklists, those two forms to help break the ice for that first prenatal.

Yeah, it's really great as doulas to help you to hone in your listening skills, your assessment skills, when you're listening to that conversation, what's being said, and what's not being said. So as you develop in your practice, you will actually be able to pick up on those skills and say, okay, she's not ready to talk about that. And our next conversation, I'm going to make a note so I can double back to it and worded in a different way. So part of the assessment process for doulas is really to be good listeners. And to really extrapolate exactly what's being said, how it's being said, Who's saying it. Like, for instance, you can have your client that all of a sudden the husband's doing all the answers, he's responding or the partner, and she's not saying anything, right, it's a red flag, by the way, and you really want to bring that up and say, Okay, I appreciate this. But I would love to hear from Donna exactly what is your view? How are you feeling with all of this? And bring it back to her.

And vice versa. If If mom is doing all the talking, then whoever always want to find balance in the conversation with her. Because guess what I I've said probably in the interview. I'm a doula for both of you.

That's right.

It gives you a chance to act like it. By bringing them into the conversation, say, Well, how did you feel? What do you want the birthing day to feel like you know, and right, are you most concerned about or what you know, what are you most hoping for?

Right, so those assessment skills are really important. And also keep in mind for those newer doulas, your client, if they truly trust you and confide in you don't be surprised if they disclose more to you than to their provider. Don't be surprised if that happens.

Absolutely. And some of that is just because of time, right? We're not in a 15 minute window, right? We were usually if we're scheduling meetings for an hour, sometimes two hours a prenatal I've definitely seen people do three hour prenatals. So yeah, we just don't have the pressure of time. Y

Yeah. So that's part of your skill building as a doula that you will be able to really learn what to take out of those conversations and use to help you in your practice, to help keep that family safe, to maintain confidentiality, as well as to build a good rapport with the rest of the team.

Yeah, so here's the thing. I hear you talking about active listening, like doulas, building the skill of active listening. And I think, you know, if you need videos on that, there's, there's videos on that there's books on that, because you do need to hear what they're also not saying,

exactly.

You should be doing a lot of listening, and very little talking.

That's right. Not you talking about your resume and all the stuff you've done, and name dropping people from all kinds of places you've been too.

You've already you've already been hired, you don't need to do that anymore.

You don't need to do that. You don't need to do that. And that's why Zoom is still very helpful. Because believe it or not on Zoom, you can still look at body cues, you can definitely look at facial expressions, you can look at how the body is being positioned and placed, whether they're open and receptive, or they're closed off to you. Or they really don't want to the other so many body cues and stuff that we can pick up

Or if their cameras are, like just a total disconnection, or if the partner like if they're touching, or if the camera doesn't even like tilt towards them. It's just like totally on one person. You can see their arm or something and you're like, I want them to be a part of the conversation. Yeah. Okay, I think this is good. I hope this is really helpful to new doulas. So here we're talking about active listening. We're talking about making it about the birthing family. We're talking about taking your time. And if you need forms, create a form, just create a prenatal questionnaire. Give yourself a cheat sheet. Here's the thing, you have to remember, you don't list they hired you and you are an expert in a lot of things, but you don't have to, like have all the answers. So also be ready to just listen, just be curious, be an investigator in that initial conversation. Don't assume you know them, or what they want, or what they're going to want in the future. You're just there to create a space for them to be themselves however they are. And you're just there to get to know them. And then yes, for them to get to know you. So take the pressure off yourself, use cheat sheets, and just listen be really good at creative, creating a container where parents can explore what they want and decide what they want. And yeah, and just be.

And if you have no idea how to start off the questionnaire. You can do the old Social Work trick that I'm about to give you. "Ravae! You are pregnant. Congratulations. I ended stand that you're giving birth at Lenox Hill Hospital on January 24 2024. That's so exciting. Tell me all about this pregnancy. Tell me more about that." Boom, boom. They're gonna start talking.

Yeah. I think that's perfect. I usually I always ask them, "Well, how's the pregnancy been going hasn't been uneventful? Have you had hospitalizations? Has anything come up that you're maybe you're concerned about?" They just start, they just start talking,

talking. And all you need to do is listen and take notes because you will be so surprised at what's going to come out in the conversation.

And here's the thing, they're watching your body language too. So when they're talking, they're watching to see if you're listening. If you're really not listening, if there's a lot happening in your background, if it's loud, or whatever, they're just gonna give you Cliff Notes. They're gonna do exactly what they do in the doctor's office. They're gonna be like, di di di did id. that's it.

Yes. So if you have small children, a dog, a husband, everybody insist on getting your attention. As soon as you're on a call, go into your closet, go into your pantry, go into your car, go into your garage, go to the library, go somewhere that you can give your client the attention. And no matter what they say, you were sitting there and you are smiling. "Oh, really? Oh, okay. You're still drinking alcohol during your pregnancy? Okay, tell me about that. Okay, how do you feel when you do that? Who are you doing that with?" And just go forward with that. So make sure that your facial expressions are not judgmental, and not giving away anything that you're not triggered. And like Ravae said that you are not distracted with your other environment that's around you.

Okay, so probably if you watching this on video, you saw me kind of do a fake clutch your pearls which is judgmental, by the way. But I was sipping my tea which has alcohol in it. So I was being comical. But Denise is absolutely right. Your body language cannot betray you. But I also want to speak to this Instagram culture, where we always want the background to be perfect, right. And we think "I know my husband or whomever is going to be walking by but this looks good in the background." Let me tell you people don't care. They would rather you be in the closet or in the car or in the garage with a crappy or like a whatever a you're in the garage, the background of a garage, and you paying attention to them, than to have a bunch of people walking pass them --pass you talking to you or interrupting you trust me when you go on mute. And you look they're talking you look at the person might be right in front of you. And we can see your lips moving, they know you're not talking talking to them. So the value is that you're giving your undivided attention to them. It's really continuing to demonstrate to them how you you're going to doula them may be how you'll be on their birthing day. So you want to continue to instill confidence that they will be your focus, they will have your attention and your expertise and that you'll be listening to them every step of the way.

Yes. And on the occasion, when you forget to turn your phone off and it rings during the time that you're on zoom with them. Say oops, let me turn off my phone. I'm not accepting calls right now, because I'm talking with you. phone's off, and they're sitting there like, oh, boy, this is great. So this is what human nature commands. We all want the attention. We all want to feel valued and heard. So that's part of human nature. So let's give them exactly that.

Yeah, it's not about you. It really is about your ability to focus on them to listen to them, to learn about them, and to be ready to support them. So Doula That! Okay, I think that was excellent. All right. So I think we want to go a little bit into pop culture, because pop culture affects and impacts so much of what people decide to do in their pregnancy. And so there's been a series of, I would say celebrities, famous people who've been having babies, and their postpartum behavior has been concerning. So I think we want to speak to this. I know that we're probably talking a lot to doulas, but we might have a few parents who are listening, but even for doulas, we are birth workers. Pay attention and please consider talking to your families about this trend of having the baby pushing the baby out and getting up and exercise. Well, you know, immediately.

Yeah, Ravae I'm a little older than you. I'm about. I'm a little older than you. I'm over a decade older than you. And I have to say this when I gave birth to my son Jordan 33 years ago, my grandparents was still alive. So my grandparents, my uncles, both of my friends errands. Everyone was still around, and I was around them. So when I was pregnant with my son, let me tell you, the village works. The village told me to sit my behind down the village told me don't reach up over your head. Don't go to funerals, skip your emotions down, don't eat too much salt. My, my village was really there to help me. Now for many of my millennial clients, I'm dealing with a lot of younger new people, they moved away from their village to get those high paying jobs. So yes, have those people around them, okay. So they feel that this is really okay for me to do that. Because no one is telling them an auntie a granny and Uncle pop up, someone is not telling them, hey, you need to sit down. You just gave birth to a baby. And your body takes a year in that pregnancy to grow that baby, it's going to take you over a year to come out of that pregnancy and that birth that you just had. So that's where I'm seeing the disconnect a lot of us. We no longer have that village. I was very fortunate to have my village with my son. A lot of people don't have that same luxury.

Yeah, and I think that people have their village, but I'm just curious what their villages tell them. So we have Naomi Osaka, who got up and started training, like a week after birthing her baby.

Not cool. Not cool. Not cool.

Yes, she's an athlete, a world class athlete.

She's young. Okay, we get it. You're young but not cool. Not cool.

Not cool. And so people are seeing this, you know, okay, so, you know, people are calling it snapback culture. Yeah, we're concerned about the pressure to snap back to like, and I'm like, go back to what? Whatever you were, you're not that anymore. You're somebody's mama. What are you going back to? So it was Naomi, who ended up back in the gym, and promoted that she was back in the gym. After a week of having her baby. We also had Chrisean. So some of us may be familiar with Chrisean and Blueface. I'm only marginally familiar with them.

I only know what you told me. Because you know, I'm older than you. I don't know these damn people.

Honey, what I saw. First of all, when she ...Chrisean went live and I'll do a link to the Facebook video. So she birth live on Facebook,

on Instagram, and Facebook,

Facebook and Instagram. And so there was the whole pushing. She was

Oh Lord, that that whole thing got to me real good

Stage two pushing. Okay, so, and the sister singing in the background. I was like, please, Sis! Please! please!

It was it was something.

It was something. You got to see it. We'll just do the link in the show notes. Okay. So there was that she, she she, you know, promoted it live. The father, Blueface was not there that it was kind of like a stab at him. He wasn't there. Because part of their controversy is he has another baby mama all this stuff, right? So I'm not even going to go into the battery. Yeah. And so with Chrisean, she then literally like a day or two later, had her cell have a picture of her a post of her in the gym. Working out like, like with gym equipment, and showing her belly. That was barely there, and people commenting on the snap back. Um, it was so concerning, because Naomi had just done this, then there's been a lot of praise. I'm not I don't have a sense of what Keke Palmer did. But there was a lot of talk about Keke Palmer like snapping back. First of all, you know, Sis looks amazing! Looks amazing! That baby body really changed her gave her curves and all the right places. She looks amazing, cleared up her skin all the what the hormones can do for you. But there's really this emphasis on snapback culture. And I just thought that it would be helpful for us as practitioners to think about talking with our families, and especially younger birthing people about the importance of taking your time, the importance of healing, of sitting down of letting like keeping your legs closed so tears can heal, about like, you know, minimum activity immediately post birth, so your bleeding can be minimal, and so that scar in your uterus can really heal heal down. I mean, there's definitely some traditions that I've heard about sounds like Denise, you were a part of with your family, but there are things that really need to happen and need to be nurtured -- some gentleness and softness--- in the in the days post birth. Here's the research. And I try to remind people, but the research tells us that if we already know that black brown women are dying at a higher rate than white women, period, just from childbirth, when we make it through childbirth, guess what, we lose the most moms and babies in the first 42 days post birth. Yes, that's immediate. So the pressure to be back lifting weights or doing a running, oh, my god running the impact of that, but the pressure to snap back, or to show people that your your belly has gone down or to do anything other than taking care of your baby, and healing is so dangerous. So I just wanted to just highlight just some examples we've had in front of us, of maybe what to reconsider doing because just because they're doing it, I imagine a world class athlete like Naomi Osaka has a whole team of people, if she's in the gym, helping her maybe with a specific postpartum workout. And maybe we just saw the workout, but we have no details about it, maybe it was actually something very gentle. I don't know. But the impression that's given is that you should be all out full out exercising, losing weight, losing the belly, and getting back to whatever you were before.

We are in a corporate culture, where Niomi has endorsements with contracts with other major labels and major brands, where she might feel the pressure that she has to jump back in immediately, because she doesn't want to jeopardize her endorsements. But what we have to understand for black and brown women, we are no longer on the plantation, we are no longer in the cotton fields where we have to push our babies out and hit the cotton field and go back out there and start picking. We don't have to do that anymore. We don't have to live like that anymore. Because the way the body works, when you give birth, it is one of the most amazing times of your life to watch your body. Just go into these things. And you don't really have to say, "Okay, now I'm gonna do this", your body, your baby, all of working in a certain synchronicity. And you're you have to give yourself that time to have that synchronicity fall into place. And you have to understand that your body is doing multiple things at the same time. They're all putting stress on the one organ that you need, and that black women have the highest rate of disease, and that's heart disease. So when you're running, and you're doing all this work, postpartum, your wound is not completely healed. The wound where the placenta leaves, the wall of the uterus is not completely closed, it's not your body's also trying to involute that uterus is trying to go back down to the span of your hand, which is pre pregnancy, your cervix is trying to come back together, your bones are trying to come back together pelvic floor muscles, all those things are trying to happen. Also, as Ravae said, You're you're healing on the tears you may have, you also have lost nutrients, you've lost blood, you've lost fluids, you've lost oxygen, you've lost nutrients, in order to do this very strenuous thing called birth, it is a very strenuous thing to do, I don't care how fit you are, it is a lot of work to do. And at the same time, you are also bonding with that baby, which takes energy, calories, heat, and you're also making milk, which is a whole other job that your body's set to do. So you're keeping all these balls up in the air at the same time. And now you're going to bring in a couple more balls called "I'm going to work out" "oh, I'm going to release all this weight" a while "I'm going to push myself and do these strenuous exercises", your blood volume, you you lost a considerable amount of blood at birth. And that blood volume has not come back and it won't come back at the way it's supposed to be for months. So here you are trying to do all these things. You're not getting the proper oxygen, you're actually taking away from your body's capability to make that milk because now the milk production is got to slow down to keep the other organs going. So people don't understand exactly all the intricacies of what the body is doing. Not to mention, the brain is saying, wait a minute, wait a minute, I'm trying to get over this birth. Now you want me to do what? Wait a minute. So there's a lot of things that you're really taxing the body to do. And we are in this culture where corporate America says this is what we do because Black women have had to do this since we were on the plantations in the fields. Get up there to push a baby out and get right back to it. No, that is not the way Black women can take back their privilege and the Black birth rights that we that we're fighting so hard for, I'm not going to get out there and get back out there and kill myself to do this stuff. I'm going to have my postpartum time. And there are other cultures that are so, so good at this and

Oh good. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we can borrow from some of the thought processes of like, usually Eastern cultures, Southern cultures from us and think about massaging, resting, sleeping, having other people like scheduling people to come over and feed you and take care of you. So when we're thinking about postpartum planning, and and we're talking with families about it, you know, it's not about just the baby shower. We are like, listen, that's a whole nother conversation.

That's another podcast.

A whole n'other conversation. But definitely, let's lift up let's value let's honor and let's help people plan to flourish in postpartum which is one of the most dangerous times of this pregnancy, to sleep, to eat, to rest to, you know, have housing stability, to have food security, like use the pregnancy or their time that they're working with us as doulas or birth workers, to really get them ready to be able to unplug for a few weeks and not be worried about looking like something. Now, Denise you make a good point about corporate America. And it is true Naomi Osaka is under a contract. Just like Alison Felix was under a contract. Allison has talked about why she left Nike under that pressure. We have to talk about Oh, her name is escaping me who passed away. Who had that second pregnancy? She just..

Bowie. So yes, Tony Bowie.

No, but Bowie is her last name. Yes. But she was. I can't believe. Listen, perimenopause is a real

she's a long distance runner, I believe Wasn't she a sprinter when she was

a track athlete who was pregnant, and was found after a few days, having passed away the in they said that she was in labor when she died. Oh, go ahead. And that she had preeclampsia. And that there was this condition. And it's just so curious. You know, I always and I've said this to you, Denise. Like, that's so weird to me. That somebody would be pregnant with second pregnancy and be alone. Like nobody see them for three days. Like why did Torie Bowie, Yeah. And, and we have to think about like what might have been going on mentally and physically trying to keep up with this contract and this obligation as a famous athlete under a contract with a company like Nike, so Nike don't come to us but like Facts are facts. There is a culture around women athletes, we see what the WNBA this pressure to get back, and this pressure to look like something. Now Chrisean, I don't know. She's not an athlete. But I think that when you're on social media, you're an influencer. I guess she would be considered an influencer. People are paying attention to like every little thing. You do your hair, your nails, your makeup. And so she's young. And she doesn't know a lot. So the story with Chrisean is that a few days later, she was in a store, I want to say she was in a Walmart, the baby was in a carrier. And the baby was, they were supposed to be chest to chest, but the baby's head was flopping forward. So you know, there's that little unit on a carrier that you can tighten it, you can kind of snap and it does neck support. She did have it engaged. And somebody took a picture. She was in the store. So somebody, somebody a fan, took a picture, posted it and criticized her. So here's the thing, y'all, we have a culture. So nobody thought to go over to her and teach this new mom, how to use her carrier. She didn't know. Think about the safety, like how you could have preserved safety for this baby, if you had just gone over. And so she did. She posted she was like, Well, I didn't know she was like you could have just helped me. And here's a young mom saying, Help me Don't criticize me.

That's the village.

Now this is layered on top of her showing a picture of her in the gym. Right? So people are ready to criticize her. But she also puts her life out there for it. So there were a couple of celebrities, Black celebrities, who reached out DM to said we're here to help. We will help you. So I think that that's also a thing for us that we're a birth workers. We are knowledgeable and let's be influential. Let's use our--we're influencers--, right, let's use our influence for good. So I think that that's the whole principle or the premise behind us really highlighting these athletes and how they're responding to their post pregnancy bodies or their postpartum season. It might not look the way it's appearing to us, it might not actually be the way it's appearing to us. But the way it's appearing, we can certainly draw a story that maybe rest is not happening and nourishment may not be optimal. You don't have to be shut-in because I think old school people used to be like, can't go outside can't step outside for six weeks or two months or something, which is, it's pretty rough. It's not necessarily realistic. That was you, Denise.

My mom was like, You're not going outside unless you go into the pediatricians office. But at the same way, you know, she locked me in with Jordan.

Like, locked you in, okay.

I was sitting there, like, what, but I actually got to learn how to breastfeed, and I also got to learn my baby's cues on his different cries and his diaper pattern. So that was a good immersion way to do that. And she was there with me. It wasn't like I was here by myself. She was right beside me. We were all in the house together. And she's like, No, you're not gonna go gallivanting all over the place. You've got to keep your body warm. I gave birth in the fall going into a, you know, really fall, Indian summer fall. And she said, You got to keep your body warm, you've got to rest because you had blood loss. And you gotta get to know your baby. So those were the three premises that I was guided by with my mom. And I tell you, it definitely has its place of validity. Yes,

yeah. So let's do our part. We all a lot of us might just be birth workers in terms of birth, doulas, and maybe we're not on the postpartum side. But we have to comment on the postpartum side, especially if we know. So spend some spend some time during your prenatals or any of your interaction at any point, just reminding people to embrace their bodies to take it easy to help them come up with ways that they can have ease and rest and safety and security. I just think it's so important because again, we actually have the most losses after people go home. And so if you're a galavanting, like one of my cousin's, I had to tell you, she had the baby she was so it was so easy for her. She was literally in the shopping mall walking around with her baby two days, two days later. Today, I remember we were all young. I remember, like we were in our 20s, early 20s. And I was like, Girl, how you feel. She's like, Girl, I was at the mall today. I'm like, Oh, okay. So this is not actually anything new, the whole idea of jumping up and snapping back, it's not new. But because we have new examples of really influential people looking like they're jumping up and snapping back, I want to make sure that we are not adopting this into our culture without some information without evidence of how we can have a blend of new school and old school to keep us healthy and safe. So as birth keepers, I think it's just important for us to pay attention and talk about it and make sure that our families are prepared for the postpartum season and understand how fragile and beautiful it can be.

And as you said, in our, in our many conversations together, you know, when you give birth, you're not just giving birth to your baby, you're giving birth to yourself, you are a whole new person, and you look different in the mirror your hair is changed, your body physique is changed, it's really a good time during that convalescence during that postpartum phase, to really get to know yourself again, and to really, you know, embrace this new you you've done something, you've been a part of a miracle, you know, so that's really important. And we tend to be so caught up in life's trends that we move away from those little subtle things that is a once in a lifetime event for many of us, and we should cherish it.

Absolutely. I sort of wonder that if we weren't so externally motivated, like I gotta get back and look like something and put a matching outfit on me and my baby. If we I wonder how that pressure impacts mental health,

right

The sadness, the loneliness, the the tears that come with hormones changing, still being uncomfortable, your body settling your organs settling in your body, and and the sleeplessness, the crying, the fear, the anxiety that you might feel. Just take giving ourselves time to come off the grid like to unplug and letting all of that happen in private, letting that healing and that transformation happen with people who truly love you and support you and know you, and we don't necessarily have to do that in front of a camera to come back when you're ready to There's no timeframe. That might be in six months that might be in five months that might be in a year. So I think some of this pressure to get back to what we were doing before really does lend itself to birth givers, just struggling, struggling to keep up. Body saying, Hey, I just need to stay in this bed and you're like, Hey, I gotta get on camera. Or yeah, so,

Right. And we have to understand the Black woman's body is so complex, and we are carrying so much epigenetics and PTSD, that there are many things in the body that have gone latent. They're simply hidden and they come out in the postpartum phase when we overextend ourselves. You know, I had postpartum depression because I had a lot of blood loss in my birth with my son, even though I was at home convalescing. So you know, heart disease. You know, Erica Garner passed away four months after she gave birth to her last child as a result of an undisclosed and and uncovered cardiac diagnosis. So, you know, pregnancy for Black women, we have to be mindful that the postpartum period, it's not over yet. It's not over yet.

So I think this is part of our professional responsibility. If you want to be a part of like saving lives and helping people have awareness that they take care of themselves to take it easy to embrace the postpartum transformation. I think we can make such a difference in people's lives if we just remind them of that.

Yeah, let's save space for our Black families.

Hmm. Okay. Okay, so let's talk about what people should be doing now. Like what's happening in October? I think we did it. I know. First of all, there's a lot happening. Not to mention any clips like happening right here today. But lots of conferences, right, like birth worker related conferences happening. I just came back from a conference for with Integrative health doc's in San Diego. And so there's a couple have lots of activities. I think a lot of organizations are trying to get their their member meetings in before the end of the year. So talk to us about as a birth worker, if we're "doulaing that", like what can we consider? When what should we be considering when when we're seeing these promotions around conferences, and trying to figure out how to spend our time and our money? What are some of the things you think, Denise, we should be mostly factoring in?

We know when I speak to my mentees, it's all about strategy. And the strategy is going to include your budget for the year, how much money do you have? Are these trainings are going to in person? Or are they virtual? Do you have the time strategically put away for your conference as well as your clients? Do you have backup ready to go if you do decide to go? That stuff is very important, but I do for me, I look at the conference and I see okay, who's presenting? What's the theme here? And what is going to be my take away? As a more experienced doula. What am I getting out of this now for me 10 years close to 300 births, you're well over 20, close to 900 births. Sometimes the skill set is not always there, but it's the people that we need to get connected with for our next level up. Okay, so that's where I'm going with that from my level of expertise. So that's important to me. So I'm looking at who's presenting, what's the theme of this conference? Does it match the speaker's like, you've got one theme over here, but meanwhile, your speakers are over here. I don't get that. And also too, at this point for our Black and Brown, doulas, many of them who are joining collectives becoming Medicaid eligible, it is so important that we have contact hours that are being offered. If you're paying these this amount of money to go, then this organization that sponsoring this really has to have the contact hours in place for you to easily get when you attend the conference. Do not have me fob in and fob out and do a couple of somersaults before I get my contact are for that session. Um, don't tell me after I've signed up that it's going to be this complicated to get my contact hours, contact hours. continuing education units, as they're called. It really helps keep the Black birth worker at the table. Because now you can recertify now you can logistically show that, hey, I've taken these, these trainings, I didn't just get a certificate of attendance. I got contact hours that was approved by an organization. I have the skill set. Now I've sat there and I've taken the skill set. It's a part of my acumen here what I'm doing, and it does give leverage. Leverage is a commodity that Black birth workers really need to engage in. More leverage is your skill set. What do you have to bring to the table? And I think it's really important that when you're looking at these conferences, sure, you want to feel good, you want to take some pictures, you want to hang out with people, you want to smile and have a good time. But you also want to build your leverage, because that's what's going to keep Black birth workers at the table.

Yeah, I mean, of course, there's a part of that where Denise is speaking from personal experience that we both went to a conference. And we had, after attending the conference, where continued eds we're like, promoted, and we had to like, check in to the session, check out from the session and do another survey overall, to prove that we were in the room. After having attended the conference and completed all the tasks, we still had to fight to get our the documentation for our continuing ed. Now, here's the thing. I just think that you won't know this when you're choosing a conference. We didn't know this right when we chose this. I mean, we didn't know. And so you're going to learn along the way. So this is for, you know, some of the newer doulas attending conferences can be a way to network to build your business to build your rapport and your reputation amongst birth workers, which can be valuable when people are referring you. Maybe you're in a city and they're not. And they're looking for a doula, they say, Oh, I do know this doula I've seen is doula like on social media. And she's and I met her at a conference and it might lead to your business growing, but also, it gives you a chance to learn more skills to stay on top of hot topics, new trends, and for some of the sessions, interpret research, I'm not a researcher. So I like to go to sessions where there's people who are really into research, helping me interpret things like the Arrive Trial, where you understand because it does impact your clients and how doctors are making decisions with your clients and the pressure to induce and then like, for example, I learned in the, from a research at a conference, that part of the Arrive Trial, they never people a part of the Arrive Trial, were not VBACers. So when you're talking about having a vaginal birth after C section, and you're saying well, they still they recommend the Arrive Trial recommends that I'm induced at 38 weeks or 39 weeks. The problem with somebody who is a VBACerr, is that research that that particular trial had no VBACers in it, there's no data. So you're talking about somebody who has a scar on their uterus, and you're trying to apply research that didn't include them. And you're trying to apply this recommendation to be induced to a trial that didn't include them. It's super important for you to know the difference. And so I learned the difference at a conference. Again, I'm not a researcher, the Arrive Trial is still a mystery to me in a lot of ways. And when I go to conferences, where it is a topic, I love it, because I like I'm still learning how that research becomes practical with my families. So I say all that to say that conferences are important to attend. And yes, you're thinking about do I have the time? Do I have the budget? Are they credible, and they're necessary in some of this, you're just gonna it's going to be trial and error. So you might choose a conference because it is being sponsored by your training organization, or because it's local. Or because you know, some of the speakers and I think all of that is great. I just think that just you can't lose by getting more education, you really can't lose by going in networking. I want to just encourage people to continue to do conferences. So a lot of doulas became doulas during the pandemic, when we were not conferencing, right. We were not gathering in person. We were not cozying up because of COVID. And a lot of things, a lot of learning opportunities happen virtually. I just want to encourage you all to like get out there. Because in person conferences and learning opportunities are very, very different than virtual. There's just so many benefits that come from it lifelong friendships that really make the difference.

Very different and what you want to see, I'm speaking from the Black perspective, I've been to many conferences in the past two years. And what I'm seeing is that many of these conferences, their research is basically not diverse. So when you know conference committees are coming together to put together a conference. You want the speakers to be able to demonstrate diversity in the research. You want your presenters to be able to give you slides. The last conference I went to was in Maryland, the Black, the Black Perinatal Group, their keynote speaker spoke from a sheet of paper for an hour, and had all of us just follow along, she offered no slides, nothing because she's very concerned that of her intellectual property. Um, that's not the way you present. Hmm. And that's not what Black people need.

Or anyibody! Girl, we need--I need slides! I need something to look at. I do.

Even if she didn't want to give slides, which is her prerogative to do, then give me a resource list of the of the names and the books that you were referring to in your presentation. So I have the correct spelling. And I can go back and look them and which is what I did. I took massive notes while she was talking and hoped to God that I had the right spelling of people's names. And I went back and did the research. So I had to do double the work. Mind you, I paid for this. But I had to go back and do double the work. So when we're doing Black conferences, we have to raise the bar. Because right now the bar is pretty low. We're focused on the Kumbaya and being together, that we're not giving the leverage. I'm going to talk about it again, the leverage for Black birth workers to stay at the table. You know you're out here telling family secrets, you out here tell it you can tell a family secrets couples to keep that in the family. But it's out here now. Yeah. So I mean, it is what it is, it's you've got the Black birth workers need leverage, they need to have that quality, that bar has to be raised, so that when they get those contact hours, they have the resources, they have the data that's diverse and representative of multiple cultures, not just white people. Okay, and this is the leverage that we need to do this is raising the bar, because the bar of expectation in the bar of understanding for Black birth workers has really fallen off, I can't even find the damn bar right now. It's so low. And I'm annoyed by that because Black birth work demands competent Black birth workers. And we have to raise that bar up to have that competency.

Absolutely. And I see I see it as giving us access. So one of my challenges with having to fight to get the continuing ed from the conference we attended earlier this year was I as you know, I needed the continuing it credits in order to recertify with a white led organization. And because the conference was Black, like it's not a Black led, or Well, I don't know, I don't know what we call it. Black and BIPOC, I guess. I think that made I wasn't certain that they understood why I was asking for this, which I didn't think I needed to ask for this, because they actually promoted it. They advertise it, they had technology all through the conference. to document it, I did, I was very, very surprised at the continuing eds didn't come automatically. And I was definitely surprised I had to send about 10 emails back and forth between three different entities to actually get my certificate that was a lot of work that I should not have had to do. But I felt like they didn't understand or didn't respect or value, why I needed the continuing eds and that some of it was oh, so that you can get credibility from this white led organization. But let me tell you, the system is messed up, we already know is jacked up. And unfortunately a part of the system is that credibility is given to some organizations over others. And so having credentials behind your name with some organ --white led organizations names sometimes gets us through the door. Sometimes I have in fact I have somebody who's doing an inquiry right now. They want a postpartum doula certified by a certain organization. And they need it because they'll get reimbursed by the insurance company only if the doula is credentialed by this certain organization. It's not fair. But while we're working to change the system, Sis, give me my continuing eds so that I can still make money so I can run my business, so I can support families. It is what it is, while we're also changing it. Like we just gotta go with it. And so for me, you know, I think I would rethink maybe attending this conference in the future, and which is, you know, unfortunate. I know, this was maybe their first conference or second one, but knowing their national reputation, I thought it would be well done, and it was until it wasn't right. But I just want to remind people if you're putting together conferences, because everybody thinks I can do everything now, right? You can put together conference or retreat, everybody can do everything. Just be mindful of the fact like what is the ram-- What are the ramifications behind the certificate? Behind those credentials or those credentialing, organizations, because some of it is giving us access to spaces and places that we can't get into without these other names behind our name.

Exactly. So, you know, I was so disappointed. I spent over $300 Just for the ticket, I spent over $1,000 on this conference, only to come out of it with 1.5 contact hours, because they said the whole time I was there, I'm in there pictures that they're sending out they're using. They said I wasn't I didn't log in properly. They did not have the Logins correct. And so I lost that time, I lost that money. And I got 1.5 contact hours out of that. And luckily for me, I did not need the contact hours at the time. But there are many other doulas like you, Ravae, who also did need them, and you have to fight for that. So we need to understand we have to go back to the table and have this conversation like you said, "Denise, you're bringing it out in the light?!" Yes, I am because birth workers need leverage. How do we get that leverage? This is all about what I'm talking about for my doctorate dissertation. Black birth workers need leverage that leverage is raising the bar on education, understanding that complex Black births need competent doulas who are trained, and that needs those contact hours. Yes, you and I are part of a white doula organization. No, we're not there because we love white people. And we're supporting them all up the Yahoo know, I joined this white organization so I can get in the door and support my Black and Brown families as well as my fellow Black doulas. And that's the fact for me. But you know, the leverage component is so very important. And now that we're having these states have these criteria for community doulas, and for all types of doulas now to be able to engage and make money, then you have to make sure that Black doulas have the leverage, you have to make your continuing contact hours, whatever you want to call these units, you have to make it accessible. You have to have your conferences be approved for these things. Even if it raises the ticket price by $20-$25 bucks. Let's get there. Let's do that. Because it's very, very important. It really truly is. And that's the leverage that I really want to see Black doulas dominating.

I know I think I feel like and I know our listeners are not just Black and Brown, but it's just like you need the edge. You know, having having your event be in a in a space where you can get credentialed and all of that. And that's great. And this particular conference did, but then when I actually needed I needed them to execute. They didn't have the I don't know, staffing, the bandwidth, the mindset, the insight. I don't know where the disconnect came from. But it's sort of like if you're going to do it, do it all the way. Make sure you're taking care of people all the way through the experience because it has real life implications. It totally delayed me by two months getting credential which has an impact on my agency. I'm leading three doula groups, and I'm out here without my credential that I needed. Right. in multiple states girl, you were multiple states. I'm out here looking crazy. organization that, you know, promoted something that they said that they would give like I actually had to fight it all worked out. Yeah. That's how life is great lessons. But the bottom line, continuing education is critical. I think it helps you become a better professional, whatever your profession is. I think it has so many benefits to like you growing your network, understanding other communities getting outside of your community, your little bubble and seeing what people are doing. It allows you to innovate, it allows you to expand, it allows you to take maybe what's going great over it two states over and maybe introduce it to your to your state. So I think it's part of our responsibility, honestly, to attend continuing education opportunities, and not just do it virtually. There is a whole entire different experience when you are in person. So yes, it costs money. Yes, it means you might be stepping away from your practice, you have to get back up doulas, or whatnot. But here's the thing, we've got 2024 coming up, look forward, see what conferences you might have missed this year, they might go look them up, find out when their 2024 or 2025 offerings are happening and put it on your calendar block off that month, or those three weeks around or particular client, block them off so that you can attend. Make sure you're interviewing and saying hey, in April, I'm going to conference so and so. And so I can only take one client or I can only take two clients and I have a strong backup you just go ahead and get prepared. If you're a newish doula, like I said and you kind of did your training during these pandemic years. This may be totally new and foreign to you, but I think we've given enough information and tips to show you how to walk through it and how to prepare in person totally worth the money. Totally worth taking the time. Totally worth, in my opinion every now and then risking missing a birth to be able to make these personal connections because I we haven't even mentioned the benefit of just connecting with people who do what we do who know what we're going through. The emotional relief and connection that you get from being an in person with other birth workers is like no other. So do it. Consider it, pick something for next year and go.

It's very helpful. And you know, I do own an organization, Black Women Do VBAC I do provide virtual trainings. Yes. And I started off virtually because I wanted the access for Black and Brown doulas, we were coming out of a pandemic, it was still a little tricky on navigating and traveling 2024 I already have some engagements for in person. But you know, the virtual, I did make sure that I got accredited for contact hours because I want our Black and Brown doulas to be able to show that certificate of contact hours to use that leverage on their websites. And that endorsement on their websites as well as to use those contact hours for recertification purposes. It's very, very important that we think about those things. And being in person is wonderful, even virtually, at the end of every one of my trainings, I give time for the doulas just to talk, talk about what's happening, tell me what's going on. And they start talking, they don't want to get off that we run over time, every time they don't want to leave. You know, it's amazing, because they're having they want that community they want that time to talk. They want that safe space for Black and Brown birth workers to be able to speak freely, and to learn from one another and support one another. And to go through all these things that we go through together. So it's really important that we maintain that. So I'm really looking forward to 2024 as well. But 2023 has been great, even with the challenges that we've had and the learning curves we've endured. It's still been great.

Absolutely. All right. So as we get to the end of our session together this particular session, let's find out what's good. So tell me something good. Denise, tell me something good. Birth work. I have something

good right here. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. This is just amazing. First of all, I just of course I lost it. So anyway, let me tell you, I know this amazing black doula. She is certified. She's also a midwife, but she's certified and postpartum and birth, and she is a peanut ball Ambassador with a actual peanut ball pose named after her. Danielle Lungrand has the "Lungrand Sheet Pull" that is now part of the peanut ball curriculum. And I'm so proud of her.

Put it in the camera. Can we see it? Where ---

I'm so proud of her. I'm so happy for Danielle Lungrand. You know when I saw this on my peanut ball newsletter, I'm like, I know Danielle. This is so cool man. And I'm such a geek but I was so excited for her. She's she's developed a peanut bowl maneuver that we birth workers can use and it has her name the Lungrand sheet pull. So I was like, this is boss. This is as my son so this is bringing this is

We'll have to put the link in the show notes. That's amazing. I had no idea.

So proud of her. I'm gonna have to give her a call and send her some flowers because this is major. This is a Black birth worker who's in the mainstream here and white. Once again, we have this situation and she's still dominating. Okay, she's still doing what she needs to do.

And because we all has in his game, she's dominating in spite of what they tried to do to her. Exactly. So she had to bury her they forgot she was a seed.

Okay, Danielle so many times.

I'm not gonna spill that tea but just

so you know the Tea on that one we

just understand it. No, they tried it with her and she's still doing her thing. So this is a Black birth worker like you said doula midwife in Oklahoma, and she is an advanced birth doula advance certified postpartum doula and midwife extremely generous. Yes. Have a chance to follow her she is she actually did some I started watching her reels she's really funny. She's very interactive. And, and just all around amazing person. Well, congratulations, Danielle. That's amazing. We're so proud of you. Thank you. I'm gonna have to learn a technique.

Yeah, the deepest admiration for her. I am just simply a fan. Girl big time, and just so proud of her so happy for her to well deserved. And I love her to death. Yay.

I love that. I love that. Okay, so my good birth worker news is I had the privilege of attending a conference in San Diego last weekend, held hosted by the Academy of integrative health and medicine. I had never heard of them until I got a call and an email several where they had decided that they wanted to award their Changemaker award to an organization I said I proudly sit on the board of the National Association to Advance Black Birth, also known as NAABB, it can be found at the naabb.org. And super excited because they were so happy to learn about us. Many of the board members had never heard of us, someone had brought our organization to their attention, and hands down immediately. They were like, yes, they are the changemakers that we want to celebrate and highlight and amplify. And so if you all don't know about NAABB, NAABB is a organization that does just what we are named, we advance Black birth. And so we have an extensive program, a scholarship program for Black midwives to grow more Black midwives. So that we can we are FUBU situation for us by us. We want to take care of ourselves. We want to restore the birth practices and the energy and the power and control around birth that our Granny Midwives had established and we're walking in that history. We're standing on their shoulders. We also have a leadership incubator program that we've launched. And we you might have heard about NAABB through our Black-- Black Birthing Bill of Rights. It's

Oh, my I love it. Yes,

yeah, the Black Birthing Bill of Rights, are visual aids to remind you, especially if you're a Black, Black birthing person of your rights, when you are going through your pregnancy going through this system that doesn't always honor us recognize us see us and value and respect us for the ways that they should. And so we're super excited that if you go to the NAABB website, if you click on the link, you may not see the Black Birthing Bill of Rights on the link, because we are unveiling in the not- in just a few weeks, a new version artistic visual version of the Black Birthing Bill of Rights. So we are all brand new, and that we and we have expanded Black Birthing Bill of Rights that we're going to be exposing. So if you go to the site, wait for the launch. It's exciting. And so we're just so grateful to be recognized for the changes that we're making in the system. And so we hope that you all will also support us and growing midwives in the United States. What, like midwives? Yes. Oh, yeah. The Changemaker award, super excited about that. Absolutely.

I love NAABB. And I follow them on social media. They're doing amazing things with scholarship opportunities for Black midwives, grant opportunities, learning opportunities, they are up and up on their social media, they're on their game point. I love NAABB. NAABB's Black Birthing Bill of Rights. They're on my webpage. They're my tool for my clients. It's a wonderful way to engage in conversation with my families. And I think every Black birth worker should have this as part of their toolkit. It's just fantastic.

Yeah, and we actually have, we have a whole shop was merchandise where you there's T shirts and bags, and we have a whole idea around having affirmation cards come out with some of the really beautiful artwork to remind to use as a tool for birth workers to remind our clients of who they are when they are in that space when they are bringing their babies forward. Just need a visual reminder. We need to see us. We don't need to see other folks. We need to see us and so I'm just so proud to be a part of NAABB and the work that we're doing to restore the power of birth work back to Black folks. So yeah, Changemaker award. Thank you AIHM.

Yeah, thank you AIHM. Yeah. Yay for NAABB. Ray.

All right, so I think we did it. I don't even know how long this episode is. But, Girl. I think we gave them some nuggets. We gave them some nuggets. So everybody, you know, we are still figuring out our pace, but it might be weekly and maybe bi weekly, but we're going to be coming to you regularly to support you. We recognize that there's been a little bit of a gap maybe in birth worker conversation support. Lots of new doulas have come into the space over the last few years and you might have something to say so we'll put the our email address It's in the show notes so you can email us. We're going to have a segment called "Doula That!" asked your questions. And so you might have some scenarios. We can triage them live on our on our podcasting so that we kind of get you get your voice out here and make sure that we're giving you answers to the questions that you truly have. So thank you for joining us.