Puvan Briah is the founder of Sabhalo, the Mental Maintenance Store. Puvan is on a mission to help other empaths, people pleasers, and perfectionists to stop burning out through her self care boxes and her podcast “The Burnout Brigade.” 

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Today on the podcast I'm talking to Puvan Briah about how and why she pivoted her product business. Her story is fascinating. Puvan talks about how she launched her initial product business MDT London, the wins and challenges she faced, what changed for her, and why she decided to pivot and start something new - Sabhalo. We talk about burnout and the pressures of being a product-based business owner. There is so much here to inspire you, and help you on your journey with your own product-based business.

Listen in to hear Puvan share:

• An introduction to herself and her new business (00:51)
• An introduction to her previous business (01:40)
• The impact of Covid and Brexit on her business (02:30)
• The inspiration behind her original business (05:59)
• Dealing with burnout (07:49)
• Communicating her pivot to her online audience (11:12)
• How stepping back allowed her to understand what she wanted to do next (13:58)
• Starting up her new business (15:33)
• Managing a pivot on social media (18:48)
• Things she has learnt whilst pivoting her business (26:04)
• The learnings she has been able to carry forward into her new business (31:36)
• Things that she would do differently (34:34)
• Her number one piece of advice for product creators thinking of making a change or pivot in their business (38:37)

USEFUL RESOURCES:

Sabhalo Website

Sabhalo Instagram

MDT London Instagram

You can either listen to Puvan’s podcast The Burnout Brigade here on her website:

https://www.sabhalo.com/blogs/the-burnout-brigade-podcast

or you can listen to it here with all of the links for different podcast platforms to subscribe:

https://anchor.fm/puvan-briah

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Welcome to the, Bring Your Product Ideas To Life podcast, practical

advice, and inspiration to help you create and sell your own physical products.

Here's your host Vicki Weinberg.

Today on the podcast, I'm talking to Puvan Briah about how and why

she pivoted her products business.

Her story is really fascinating.

She talks about how she launched her initial products business.

What changed her, the challenges she faced and what it meant, actually take quite a

big pivot and start something else new.

Um, I think there's lots here that you're going to find

interesting and inspiring to you.

And, um, I'd now love to introduce you to Puvan.

So hi Puvan thank you so much for being.

Hi.

So can we start with you, please give an introduction to

yourself, your business and what you do and sell let's start, start with what

you sell currently, and then we'll.

Ok so I have a business called Sabhalo and I

basically sell, uh, self care items.

Anything that you can use to, um, to kind of maintain your, your wellbeing?

Because I think, um, personally, my experiences of burnout has really.

Uh, inspired me to do that because people often say to do self care when

you're already at the point of crisis.

So I kind of wanted to create a store that's more around doing it

regularly and kind of promoting that.

Thank you so much for that.

And we definitely will get onto your experience, burn out a bit later.

So, um, I asked you to put yourself currently, because I know that even

at the beginning of this year, your business looked completely different.

So are you okay if we go right back to the beginning and talk about your

first products business and how you got started, what inspired you then?

And then we'll bring ourselves up to where we are now, if that's okay.

Yeah, sure.

So.

Oh, where do I start?

So basically I used to have a candle brand called, uh, we used to call it

MDT, but it was short for Maison De Tourmentin, which is my partner's surname.

And the candles were, um, really minimal.

It was all inspired by a French artisanal perfumery because that's kind

of what my other half wanted to do.

And I was kind of like the business head behind it and I really

enjoyed the, um, the creative side.

I love styling it.

I love like I love interiors.

So that was really my thing, like the photography, um,

and also the brand message.

Cause I really enjoyed promoting like the self-care aspect of things and um,

and you know, we were doing really well and we were stocked in like quite a few

shops around the UK and uh, and then we just kind of got to a point where

because of COVID and Brexit and, you know, the, the absolute power couple that

is those two for like product shortages at the beginning of January, um, after

a really, really successful Christmas, um, our suppliers, uh, they basically

would like keeping us on hold for our stock and we're like, okay, we'll wait.

And then it kind of got to february.

And I started getting DMS and messages and emails like, hi, I really wanted

to get this my partner for Valentine's.

It was my mom's birthday.

And I started really panicking and.

And the suppliers promised and kept saying, okay, yeah, we're going to,

we're going to get your products to you.

And then eventually they, they said we're not restocking yet.

They're not, they're not shipping to the UK anymore.

And I think I could have really found another candle vessel could

have really found another jar.

I think actually it was a sign for us to take stock and think,

do we actually like this?

Like, are we building a business that we've now kind of like, we've

like trapped ourselves in that we're not really enjoying, so yeah, that's

basically what instigated the big change.

Okay, thank you.

And coming back to that, to the candle business.

So was that something, um, how long did you have that business?

Actually, first of all.

So we had it for about two years.

Okay.

And how did you get started as an, were you in a business

with your, with your partner?

Was he in the business with you or was he more like a silent partner?

Yeah, we kind of did it together, but, um, I would say that

when we stopped doing MDT, like our relationship got so much better because

I feel like when you have a business with your partner, it's very much like you're

like colleagues and we would do stuff like every weekend we'd like go to markets.

We did a trade show together, but we never spent like time together.

And it was constantly like, have you done this?

Oh, did you send that email?

Have you replied to this stockist?

I think we kind of realize that.

You know, we weren't really enjoying it.

And, um, and Matt, basically my partner, he decided that he just, he

wanted to focus on other things and he just didn't wanna do it anymore.

And then I found myself in a position where I was like, okay, I built this

business based on someone else because you know, I'm not French I'm South Asian.

So I couldn't really talk about French heritage.

The style was very much what he likes.

And I was like, right.

I need to, I need to really like, take a break and then decide what I'm going

to go, what I'm going to do next.

And your, your, your business you have now definitely looks

more like your business from what I, you know, what I can see from following

you on Instagram, it definitely looks like, like you, and I guess, does that,

do you feel that that's reflects that the fact that now you're driving this.

Yes, I think so.

I tried to, um, make changes, but it was really scary.

And I posted a video like in maybe like April 2021, just saying like, I hope that

without Matt I'll be enough because he was really like the artist behind the brand.

And he was like the creative and I'm like, I chose to change the name, which

was like a really big, um, big decision, because like, I did think maybe I'm

throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Yeah.

That stupid saying, cause I was like, it's going pretty well,

why am I changing everything?

But, um, the name Sabhalo actually means to preserve in Punjabi and I just

felt like it was a bit more me and I wanted to make products that are a bit

more joyful and that I'd probably buy.

So, yeah.

And so what was the inspiration for starting up

the candle business initially?

Um, I think it was because Matt basically wanted to be a perfumer

and I was like, I'll make it happen.

Because I think, um, through like my burnout, I realized that I

was a bit of a, like a manager.

I was very much like, like, I, I don't know.

I kind of liked to be a hype man for other people.

And I realized that I've taken some time out that actually that's not right.

I need to really focus on what I want.

And, and that's like a major message and a major inspiration behind Sabhalo.

Yeah.

So it sounds like was it pretty much his vision?

Yeah, because I think I'd be very much be like, oh, what do you think?

Do you like it?

Which one do you like?

So I basically do everything.

I design everything.

And, but I felt like I needed that approval of like, is this right?

You know, I need someone else to validate that I was doing the right thing.

And now it is really hard because I make decisions and I've got no

one to be like, do you like this?

I just need that cheeky little compliment to like, let me post it.

Yeah.

That's a massive shift for you.

I'm going from being the two of you to sort of, you know, the being the,

sort of the main person, I guess the person that the buck stops with as well.

Yeah.

It's really hard, but I think this was the best.

And how have you adjusted to that change?

That is a huge change.

Um, I think I, I ha I like to have some pep

talks and like self pep talks.

So.

Before.

It was very much like I need to ask a couple of people and I at least need

to get some validation from Matt.

Do you think this is a good idea?

Should I order this?

Like I I've been very indecisive.

I realized that that's just a part of my personality.

So I'm trying to like, um, it's quite woo woo, but I do a lot of affirmations.

Like I write in a journal and I'm like, you can do this.

You're a capable business owner.

And yeah, I think that, that, that has really helped.

Thank you.

So, as you said, it sounds like your supply issues you you're having in January

kind of the catalyst for the change, but maybe it's from what you're saying,

that perhaps the burnout issues you're experiencing, what that was that prior

to January, was it, was it the events of January, sought of brought itto a head.

I think, um, it was always kind of a reoccurring issue.

And I think for a lot of product based businesses, actually, it's really common.

Um, because I think what I would do is I would post like every day

on social media I'd show up on my stories, I'd be very into, um, being

really visible in my business and I could only do that for so long.

And then I would just, I would just kind of fall off of the wagon as it were.

And I would maybe don't take two months off and then I don't know about

you I don't know if have you ever had this when you take a week off

or even a weekend and you think, oh my God, I've been away for so long.

They're not gonna recognize me when I come back.

Definitely, it feels almost awkward coming back doesn't it?

Yeah.

And yeah, it is, it is really bizaare.

And I guess it's not.

And also, I mean, we also have to recognize it's not just a social

media, isn't it is it presumably you'll do all the other stuff

in the business as well as that.

And I think sometimes sort of doing the social media.

Sort of showing up and being positive.

I'm absolutely exhausted from all the other things you're having to do.

Like sending out orders and responding customers.

It can just feel like a bit, much can't it.

A hundred percent.

I really love what you said about having to be positive because I feel like that is

a major thing that makes people burn out is that they go on social media and I've

talked to other product based businesses.

And then they see everyone's killing it.

Like, oh, I've just had hundred sales.

Here's my massive box of orders for the post office.

And the reality might not actually be like that.

You know, they might just saved up the boxes or something

else might be going wrong.

And I know for myself, there was a time where I was getting loads of stockists.

Um, but then I was still going on social media and I'd feel terrible because,

um, I'd see other people doing things that I wanted to do or, um, and another

thing was actually fulfilling the orders.

Cause I actually worked full time during the whole time of my business.

And so did my partner.

So we get an order for stockists for like 40 candles and have to like, you

know, bash out on it on a weekday.

So actually what you see on social media is not really, you know, it's not

really hunky-dory as, as it seems to be.

Yeah, I had absolutely no idea you were working full time as well.

Wow.

And were you actually creating the actual candle?

I know like you were mentioning that you, the jars were came from your suppliers,

but where you actually physically putting the candles together for that.

Uh, we had like the wax melter we had, like in the room

moment now we have, um, like just all of the candle making stuff.

I've just put it in into like a corner.

It's like the dark corner that we don't speak of.

But, but yeah, we literally did it.

So we'd come home from our day jobs and then literally be

like, okay, we've had an order.

We need to like make candles.

And then we were just like really silently, like like look at each

other and just like, not even speak, just make candles together.

Oh, wow.

And did that take some of the joy out of it?

I think so.

Yeah.

I think, I think I would actually really like to do candles again, but

I just think maybe in the way that I did it, it wasn't sustainable.

So like you said, it really took the, take the magic out of it.

Cause that's why you make products right it's because you

enjoy making and you enjoy like putting something into the world.

Yeah, definitely.

And coming back to what you talking about, honesty and things, not being, as they

appear it on social media, one of the reasons I was so keen to talk to you Puvan

was I watched a video that you posted.

I think it was April time when you referred towhere you were sort of

telling everyone what was going on and that you were taking a step back and

thinking about how to move forward.

And I thought that was so honest.

Um, Really vulnerable.

Um, and yeah, so I'd love to just talk about that a little

bit more that more of as well.

Cause I thought that was a really brave thing to do to actually say, I

don't know what I'm going to do now.

Um, I basically thought about it for a while, because I knew that there,

like I knew that there was a problem.

I was getting loads of messages and I was like, I need to like, you know,

I felt like a bit of a celebrity.

I don't have a huge following, but I was actually like, I need

to make a public statement.

And I think, um, it was really hard.

I literally, I had like no makeup on, I just looked terrible and I just

put my camera in front of me and just kind of spoke for like eight minutes.

So.

I don't know if anyone watched the whole thing, but I just felt like I

needed to get so much off my chest.

And I was really scared cause I was kind of just admitting and like as a

business owner, like imposter syndrome is really like, you know, it's really real.

So the worst thing that you can say is, I don't know what I'm

doing because that's probably what most of us are thinking anyway.

So to actually put it into words and say, I dunno, what

I'm doing was, was really hard.

But, um, I, it was such a relief.

Yeah, and I think you're right.

I think most of us don't know what we're doing.

We're just not all brave enough to say it.

Um, and what kind of reaction did you get from that video?

It was really lovely.

Actually, it was so nice like that we had so many, um, messages and people

that we weren't even, we have no idea that we, we like had done business with.

Like, so, you know, when, when you have a product-based business feel that you

have like regular customers that, you know, and that you see pop up on Shopify

and you're like, oh look, it's Jenny.

You know?

But then there were some that were like, oh, I met you once a market like

two years ago and you were so nice.

And it just really touched me that those people in particular, you know,

commented to say, oh, you know, you're really knowledgeable, good luck.

I know that you're gonna do really well.

And yeah, it was really affirming to know that actually, you

know, people cared about us.

And I think that's the beauty of small business really is that you're not just

kind of this like vapid mass production machine, like you sell to people and

yeah, it was, it was really nice.

That is lovely.

And I think you're right.

Sometimes you can lose sight of the fact that there's a person on

the other end of the transaction.

It's really lovely touch that many people and that they, you know,

you've got such positive feedback.

So what happened from then Puvan?

And so at that point, you weren't really sure what was happening.

You were just taking a bit of time out, talk us through what happened.

So, um, basically I just, I literally just did that.

I took time off.

I didn't go on Instagram.

I basically uninstalled everything and, uh, I, I reduce as many of my

direct debits as I possibly could from my business bank account.

And yeah, I just felt like I needed the time and I just,

I carried on in my day job.

And, uh, and then I kind of got to the point where I saw a therapist

and I was like, look, I keep, I keep getting really stressed.

I keep overworking myself and I don't know why.

And, you know, I had a lot of realizations as to why I was doing it.

And I think a lot of the times we work really hard because like internally

we don't feel like we're good enough.

So we need the validation of achievement to feel like, oh,

look, this is what I've done.

So I'm I'm good today.

And, uh, I think in the end I decided to go part-time with

my day job as well, which.

It was really scary because I think in society, you're kind of

often told that you need to have a constant upward progression.

So the fact that I was taking like a drop-in money, like an, almost like a

drop in status, sometimes when you go part-time, you know, your family and

friends are like, what are you doing?

Um, uh, but I just knew I needed the time and.

I, uh, decided to do, uh, a therapy course.

So I'm basically training to be a therapist at the moment.

And I felt like I'd had enough rest that I felt like actually, I

kind of want to start this again.

And now I'm doing my podcast to basically talk about what I went

through and talk about others' experiences of burnout as well.

Thank you.

And then what point did you decide to add, products To your new business.

So I think products is the first thing that I'm going

to do because it's what I know.

And.

I, I think about the things that I've used during my recovery over the last year.

And, you know, it's really been kind of like wholesome things like essential

oils and, um, like Palo Santo sticks.

So you light them and, and then basically they have this like billowing smoke and.

Uh, in my kind of like messaging in my, my business, a big thing is like,

um, saying no to toxic positivity and actually just letting yourself be sad.

Um, and that's really what I had to go through.

And that's what I think some people really need is to actually

just be sad and no one fix it.

So, I mean, I want to be clear though, you don't need products to do this,

but I like, it's not the products that help you, but I do feel like

having that ritual to mark, like your wellbeing does really help.

Yeah.

So talk us through what you'll be selling.

So at moment, so I literally did this yesterday cause I

was like panicking cause I had like a podcast episode coming out today.

Um, so I've got an essential oil Rose and Vetiver um, essential oil roll on.

So just to use on your wrists and like your temples and just like your pressure

points, um, you can just keep it in your bag, like a little pep to go.

Um, and also I love Palo Santo sticks actually.

The best selling candles, Trizor was based on this wood.

And I came to realize that you can actually light it and it smells divine.

And you just have it in your bedroom, like you would incense.

Um, also I've got incense Indian incense, and I've created a burnout

box with like a burnout journal with like exercises and journal prompts.

And then.

It has like, you know, all of the other stuff in it, like the essential

oil and, and yeah, I really just wanted to help people and, and to

give them something comforting.

Oh, that's lovelyand yeah, your products all sounds amazing.

I'm definitely gonna take a look at those, but yeah, definitely.

Cause I think, yeah, I think probably most people listening and definitely,

I definitely can relate to that feeling of getting to the point where you're

like, oh, actually I've been doing too much and I'm burnt out and it's almost,

it's not too late, but it would have been good to have caught it sooner.

Yeah, that really resonates.

And so I know that you, um, rather than sort of starting off with, well,

I guess because it was, is it fair to you've pivoted your business Puvan?

Yeah, I would say yes, it's kind of a big U-turn because

there's no candles at the moment.

That was pretty much what I was doing before.

Yeah, I just kind of wanted to focus more on the kind of wellbeing side, whereas

before it was specifically about perfumery and also about French heritage, and now I

really want to focus more on the kind of like the mental wellbeing aspect of it.

Um, and yeah, I'm planning to come up with like loads of other boxes.

So I wanted you to look a kind of like a self love, one for Valentines

and, and have like different themes.

Because I think it's nice, like have an activity that you can do

when you're feeling like a certain emotion and a certain you're going

through a certain thing in your life.

Um, so yeah, it was, it was a really big pivot.

Like even the colors everything's different.

So I'm hoping that everyone likes it, but you know, only time will tell.

Okay.

So you mean you're using your same Instagram account?

Am I right?

And you've, I know you've changed that you've updated the name and

you've refreshed the look of it.

Um, have you had, how has that had an impact or has it had.

On your following, because obviously you have followers who

are following the MDT brands.

Um, how have things changed now that you've rebranded and you're

offering something different.

Okay, I'll be honest with you.

It's not going how I expected because I mean, actually, no, to

be fair, I did expect this, but it doesn't make it any easier.

So I've completely changed and completely pivoted.

And obviously I know that people followed MDT for the specific, um,

brand on the specific vibe of MDT.

And I am losing a lot of those people and it is really scary to kind of stick to

my guns and just think, you know, is fine because, you know, there's that saying in

marketing, isn't that attract and repel.

You know, if you, if you just be your true self, then the people that

vibe with that will come to you and then people that don't want, you

know, aren't interested, they will kind of like find something else.

And, um, it is really hard because the posting on social media,

I'm doing my podcast and I'm sending out newsletters regularly.

And the people that were on the ride for MDT, that aren't on the ride for this,

you know, they, they are unfollowing me and they are unsubscribing from me.

Um, You know, it is like shaking my confidence a little bit, but I'm trying

to like really tell myself that actually this is part of the process, and to

kind of create a life and a business that's authentic to me this is just

a process that I need to go through.

Yeah.

I think that is really hard.

And I know myself like unfollows and unsubscribes.

It's hard not to take it to heart even though it's not you, but because it's

your business, it feels like it's you.

And it feels like it's personal.

Um, I think what you're saying really makes sense though, because

I guess not everyone who resonated with a French inspires candle brand

would be the same person who would resonate with what you're doing now.

So I guess that makes sense.

But yeah, I can imagine that is really hard, but I like what you said about

having faith that, you know, the right people will find you and follow you.

Um, and I guess, yeah, maybe you have to lose a few people along the way, but.

I think you'll end up with people following you who are really inspired and

resonate with what it is you're doing.

It just does take time.

Does need to build up a following, but I can imagine it's quite scary when

you built one up and then it starts to,

yeah.

Oh my God.

Yeah so used to the number going up and I was like, yes, this is what I want.

And now see it going down and it's like every post.

So I'm like, okay, it's fine.

This is okay.

And I think, cause we know each other through the Janet Murray

marketing membership don't we, so.

I listened to one of her podcasts actually.

And I think she interviewed someone and they were doing a dating blog and it was

all about their fun adventures dating.

And I listened to that.

And then basically she got, she ended up, you know, getting a partner and

then her life changed because it wasn't about these crazy dating stories.

It became about like, you know, home life.

And she actually decided that she wanted to go more into the business

side of things to teach other influences, to be kind of authentic

in their marketing and in it, they spoke about losing followers and I'm

kind of just like, okay, it's fine.

Like it's, you know, everyone has to change, like the things that you were

interested in, like in your twenties, aren't going to be the same things that

you're interested in your thirties.

So I think you just have to grow and then hope that your

audience kind of grows with you.

Absolutely.

And I think that it's, I remember listening to the episode as well,

because I remember there was a lady and I don't know if it was the same episode

where she was talking about actively removing followers and subscribers

Oh I didn't hear that one I think

yeah.

And I just felt, and I thought that sounds absolutely terrifying, but then

again, Um, I've heard so many times that it's better to have a smaller group of

people following you or buying from you or wherever it is that really like you and

like what you do and like your products than to have, you know, a bigger group

who aren't really that interested or just maybe following you because they clicked

follow years ago and don't even know you.

Um, and that does make sense, but.

Sometimes you don't, I guess you can, the, the metrics almost

like a vanity thing, aren't they?

Because coming back to what you said about status, it does feel nice when

people follow you and painfulwhen they leave and the same with sales as well.

And you, you know, when you're selling more of your products, it feels good.

And if you sell less, you start thinking, what have I done?

But course courses.

Yeah, there were so many variables aren't there, but it's really hard

not to take everything to heart.

Yeah, because I think you are your business.

So it's hard to, I've been talking to Matt about this, cause like

I still consult him sometimes to be like, well, what should I do?

Um, but I think it's really hard to separate your work from you.

And you have to realize that you are, you're not, it's actually not the same.

If your post is bombing on Instagram, you're still a great person.

You're still like, fantastic.

This doesn't have any bearing as to like who you are.

It just means that maybe you need to analyze it and do something different.

Like next time.

That's so interesting about removing followers, things.

I wouldn't even know who to remove.

Like how do you, what if they love me?

And I've just gotten rid of them.

I couldn't bring, I mean, if anyone listened to this,

I'm not going to remove any of you.

I just couldn't.

You can follow me forever.

I'm never going to, it's just not happening.

Coming to, if you don't mind me asking this Puvan and coming back

and you just mentioned Matt again.

So bit of a changes direction, but what, what does he feel about your new

venture and the way you're taking things?

Because if you don't mind me asking that, I'm just curious because

obviously you guys were in it together.

So he, well, I did ask him, I said, look, I've got all

the formulas can, I just use them.

And he was like, if you wanted to use them in the future, that's absolutely fine.

Um, because he was like, cause I was actually intending on

clearing out all of that.

Um, I'll like kind of, um, fragrance oils and he was like, okay, you can

clear them all out, but keep all of mine because that's my intellectual property.

I was like, okay.

So he's absolutely, it was really supportive.

He was like, you can use them, you can rebrand them.

You do whatever you want, wherever you want to them.

Um, and I think for awhile it was really hard for him because like,

I was the one that came out and said, here's how me and Matt feel.

Here's what we're doing.

You know, it was never, it didn't really come from him, even

though it was all his feelings.

I felt like he had too much fear.

So I kind of stepped up and kind of like delivered the final blow as it were.

But I think it was really hard becauseinternally.

I think he felt like he was a failure and I think he has come a long way since then.

And now he's, he's happy to kind of move on to other things, but,

you know, it was getting to the point where we were booking, uh,

courses for like fine perfumery.

So we went to one of the Cotswolds and we had some more planned and, um,

I think he was just kind of doing it because he just felt like, oh, well,

you know, it's working and I'm here now.

And.

But when we had an honest conversation about it and I was

like, are you actually enjoying it?

Like, do you still want to be a perfumer?

And I think he did feel really relieved when I asked him, cause he said no.

And I was like, that's fine.

That's absolutely fine.

But it just means that we know what we're doing going forward.

And, um, and yeah, I still use him as a sounding board and it's quite nice

to have someone that's been through it as well and understands like the

struggle of basically starting out again.

So yeah, he's been great.

Oh, that's really nice to hear.

And so what are some of the things that you've learned through the

process of a pivot in your business?

I think a big thing is don't do things because

everyone else is doing it.

And you think that's what you need to do to be successful.

Because I think it's so easy to look around at other people

who are achieving their goals.

And think that you want that.

So like there, there are a lot of, um, examples of this in real life.

Like I was talking to one of my friends who was like, oh, I saw

someone from my school is now a stockbroker and is on loads of money.

And just made me feel really like crap and.

And then she was like, but I don't really want to be a stockbroker.

And it's kind of that kind of same thing, you know, when you see another business

doing really well and you think, oh, I want that, but then do you actually want

that or do you just want the success?

Um, I think another thing I've learned is, um, to take breaks because

I didn't before and, and just be patient because things will take a

long time and it's really hard to.

To like be patient because you want the win.

Now you want, you want, you know what I mean?

You want that kind of achievement, but I think patience really

does pay off in the long run.

Thank you.

And I'm certainly not trying to ask a leading question here, but

I'm just curious whether you think that trying to do everything, um,

quickly get there fast was attributed to the burnout you had eventually.

And I only ask that because, um, I've definitely been in that

situation where I've sought of thought I need to be here by this

point and I need to have done this.

And, um, so I'm definitely not trying to put words in your mouth or lead

you anywhere, but I just wondered if based on what you were saying

wheter that did attribute to it?

A hundred percent yes, definitely.

Because, so when I first started the business, the first Christmas we did,

uh, we both worked full time and then we basically didn't have any annual

leave until the end of the year.

And from September to December, I'll be booked to a market

every day and on the weekends.

So until Christmas basically, It was horrible.

And then you'd think that at the end of that, we'd be like right

let's take a break let's take stock.

Now I booked Top Drawer, literally three weeks later.

And it was like one of the last minute ones.

So I literally was like, oh my God, I've got Top Drawer, which is like one

of the biggest trade shows in the UK.

And I've got basically organize it in like six weeks.

I think there was a real desire to quite, quite feel like I've made it,

because I think again, with the imposter syndrome, when you've got a small

business, um, especially when it's like crafty, because a lot of my, um,

a lot of people would be like, oh, you know, she's got little candle business

and I hate it when people put the word little in front of you in front of

your passion and what you're doing.

And.

And yeah, I just had this desire to be like, well, it's in shops

now, so it's not so little.

And I think that, that definitely, um, that definitely made me burnout

because I don't have anything to prove.

I don't need to prove anything to anyone.

And if anyone's listening to this, you don't have anything

to prove you're doing great.

And your business isn't little.

Did you know what I mean?

Like if you're, if you're operating a business, you're already so much

further ahead than so many people that don't like want to, but don't try.

So.

Yeah, I would say that.

That is true.

I think so too.

And it's also what you're saying resonates that so many people.

You know, sit on an idea for so long before doing anything with it.

And there's, it's completely understandable by the way, cause it

is hard and it is a lot to figure out and I get all of that, but I do agree

either just by starting you've done something really amazing because even

if it doesn't work, how, who cares, you know, it's a story to tell down the line.

If, if nothing else, when I say who cares, I don't be saying that

so flippantly, if it doesn't work out, that's how that can be hard.

But what I mean is it's, you know, hopefully.

Yeah, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

It wouldn't be the only thing that you can do.

And as you've proven, you can, you can pivot as well.

You know, if the first thing you're doing, isn't quite right, you

can definitely change and evolve.

And I think a lot of us do that anyway, if things are going well,

um, you also mentioned by the way about having your, of, you mentioned

this very off hand about having your candle stocked in shops as well.

So that's amazing when you think what you did in two years.

And I know like, as you said, um, the goal shouldn't be to do it all really

fast, but it does sound like you were in a really, in a really good place.

Yeah, it was, it was really good.

And I, I really enjoyed the stockist aspect of it

because they were really nice.

And I think as a small business owner, if you have a product

based business is so scary.

You think of stockists as these like entities that are like the gatekeepers

of like your dreams, but actually they're like, they're just like you

they're just, you know what I mean?

Like there were so many really cool ones that.

Um, even when I stopped selling, they sent me really lovely messages

to be like, you know, good luck.

You're going to smash it.

And one of them sent me a message that was like your, your like a diamond.

And I was like, oh, it was so nice.

But, but yeah, I do.

I do think that as a small business, and if you're listening to this and you're

looking to get into stores, um, building a relationship with stockists, one of the

best things that you can do, because, you know, they're just people like you, and

they're just trying to figure things out.

Yeah, that's really helpful.

Thank you.

And I guess as well, having those relationships, so coming back to the

pivot, some of those stockists might be interested in your new range of products.

For example, of course not all of them maybe would be the right fit, but.

Maybe.

Um, so I think that's something else that if, you know, when we talk about

pivoting or changing or trying something new, hat often there's things from what

you were doing previously, that actually can carry over to the new, whether it's

experiences or relationships or whatever.

It's amazing.

Like how.

Sort of get behind you in a couple of years.

Yeah, definitely.

I would totally agree with that because even starting out before, like I know

so much more now, and I know like how to have newsletter, like I, I know a

lot more people as well through doing the markets and networking and, you

know, I think, I think when you pivot, there's like a risk of feeling like a

failure, like you've done something wrong.

Actually.

I think it, it shows that you've tried and it shows that, you know, you've tried

to do something that was really hard.

And, and, you know, I know it's like a cliche, but it's

not how many times you fall.

It's how many times you get up.

And I've been trying to tell myself that, and I think that.

You know, that's something that other people should also think

of when they feel really poo that they've made a bad decision.

Yeah.

I mean, if anything, I would say that a pivot is growth rather than failure.

I mean, I am a glass, half full sort of person that see it because, um,

it's not, it's definitely not failing.

It's not giving up.

It's just moving in a different direction.

And as I said, I think most businesses, even if you look at really these

really big successful businesses have gone through a number of

pivots or changes along the way.

I think very few of us start out with an idea in mind and just keep

going on that very straight line.

I just don't.

I dunno, maybe there are, maybe there are people won't get examples of that.

I'm sure there are actually, but I think there will be more examples of people

whose lines falling all over the place.

Yeah, I think that's more likely cause you know, like

you said, it's growth, isn't it.

And you know, even if you're not trying, you're growing, you know, you're

growing every day just by learning what your preferences are and you

can't, um, You have to do something before you know that you like it.

Do you know what I mean?

So when I was like, I'm going to be a candle business owner

and I'm going to do X, Y, and Z.

Like you have to try out, you have to like, there's no way you're going to

know what it's like, and you're not going to know the day-to-day aspects of it.

So yeah, I think it is all growth.

And so it has, um, cutting down your, your, your job to part-time.

Is that also, I guess that's allowed you more time now to explore.

You your business and things you might want to do?

Yeah, definitely.

It means I can do the things I enjoy as well.

So I really enjoy the writing a lot.

I love content.

I love planning podcasts and wanting to a podcast was something I've

wanted to do for like two years.

And I've just always put it off because I've been too busy and now, yeah, having

the two days off really allows me to to just do the stuff that I enjoy about

X that's why we do this, isn't it?

Because we have a passion for it and because we, we enjoy creating.

So yeah, I really liked that part of it.

And is there anything sort of along the process that you think,

oh, I wish I did that differently or I know you're a very positive person, but

is there anything where you think, oh, actually if I was going to go through that

all again, I would have done X, Y or Z.

Um, I have quite a few.

Do you mind, do you mind sharing some?

So I've just, I'm just thinking from the point of view of anyone

listening, whose sort of maybe resonating with some of this.

I think it could be really helpful

um, I think I would definitely take more breaks a

hundred percent and not feel guilty about it and not have to, you know,

take a week off and think, oh my God, I've completely dropped it.

It's, it's dead in the water.

No-one's going to know who I am anymore.

Um, and also spend less money because I, I think fueled.

Uh, it's hard to admit, but sometimes you're fueled by insecurity and that's

why I spent so much money on Top Drawer.

And even though it was good and we got suppliers and stockists out of it, like

even things like the printing materials.

So, you know, when you take a line sheet and you take a business card

and you take all of the information to give to potential stockists and,

uh, I don't know what I thought.

I thought I was going to be like millions of people.

So I printed.

I'm not even joking, like 5,000 of them and I've still got

them was like two years ago.

So my advice would be spend less money because I always wanted to be prepared.

So I always would like be like, right.

Okay.

I might need 50, but I'm going to buy a hundred just in case.

So it might be really obvious to some people, but, and also if you have an

idea, If you have an idea, like test out in the smallest and cheapest capacity

first before you go gung-ho and invest in everything, all of the stuff for it,

because, uh, we tried to do, um, what they called, like structured candles,

you know, the candles that have got the funny shapes, um, Basically, we try to

make our own molds because we wanted to make something that was truly unique.

So we had some shapes screen printed, um, and then we made molds out of silicone.

So we did the whole process and, um, and basically it didn't really work.

We spent so much money on it.

So I would say if you have an idea, You cost it up, think about what was going

to be the cheapest way of seeing if it's going to sell, like just sell 10

and then if you sell 10 things, okay.

Yes.

I'm going to do this.

Um, because I think that would have saved me a lot of money in the long run.

Yeah.

And a lot of time as well, that's the other thing it takes so much time,

doesn't it to sort of, and you put a lot into a new, a new products idea.

Yeah.

I mean, that's, that's one of the key things I tell people as well is to

just try and get as much information about whether your idea might work,

whatever that might look like for you, whether it's taking pre-orders or

whether it's testing or whether its.

Even just doing a bit of research and talking to customers before

spending lots of time and money.

Cause it can be so hard and you get to the point as well.

My experience where you go so far down a path with an idea that it's almost like

even if all the signs are saying, stop back out, you just can't because you're

all so invested, no, I have to keep going.

So I think it's good to kind of get that validation or otherwise before you go too

far down that path and can't be derailed,

I wish I spoke to you before I made this stupid mold!,

you learned something from it and I actually have for

people are learning from it.

And I think like I know for myself, I've made so many, I could probably

do a whole episode on the mistakes that I've made along the way.

Um, but I think you need.

Yeah, not to do that.

And you know, if you can help other people, I mean, the whole point of this,

that's the whole point of this podcast.

One of the points of this podcast is if, if you and I, and everyone

else can sort of teach someone something say, go, oh, okay.

I won't do that.

Or I will do that.

Um, I think that's.

Really really helpful because when you start out, I don't know about you, but

I didn't really know what I was doing.

And the only way I could learn was by making mistakes

because I was pretty clueless.

So now I'm just trying to help other people avoid some of them.

Um, so along those lines, I've got one final, final question.

If that's okay Puvan, what was your number one piece of advice

be to a product's business owner.

Who's thinking about making a change or a pivot.

What's one thing you'd want them to take away.

I'm trying to think I what it to be like golden advice.

I want it to be the be-all and end-all like advice.

Um, I would say change, change if you feel like it's going

to make you happier because.

If your business isn't making you happy, then why are you doing it?

You know, it, the whole point of it is that it gives you freedom

and it gives you purpose and you can live your life on your terms.

Um, and that's why I got in, got into it.

So if it's not making you happy, then change it to make you happy.

Um, and also, additionally, if you have extra stock sell

it And it makes some money.

So, yeah, that's my, my advice.

That's really good advice.

Thank you.

Say right.

And thank you for everything you've shared.

I've really loved talking to you this morning.

I've really enjoyed it.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end of this episode.

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