This week, we get to speak with Chad, a Texas-based male escort and friend of mine. He shares with us his perspective on sex work being healing in two directions, both for him and his clients. We also talk extensively about STIs and PrEP. We talk about stigma of various kinds revolving around sex and sex work and how they can crop up in non-profit settings, even when the organizations mission is to serve sex workers.

**TW: Sexual Assault and Suicide**

Things We Talk About:

• PrEP Resources:
• https://heymistr.com/
• https://www.nurx.com/prep/
• https://www.hiv.gov/federal-response/ending-the-hiv-epidemic/prep-program
• https://www.iwantprepnow.co.uk/
• https://endinghiv.org.au/stay-safe/prep/#
• STIs: "Six Things Sex Educators Wish You Knew About STIs" by Planned Parenthood
• COYOTE (Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics)
• "Bidi Bidi Bum Bum" by Selena
• Harm Reduction
• Resonance Art Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KEjtcsZ4TI

Podcast Links:

• Patreon: patreon.com/SexyGalaxyPod
• Website: parkerwestwood.com/podcast/
• Twitter: @SexyGalaxyPod
• ANSWER-Detroit: answerdetroit.org

Music. Welcome to A Sex Worker's Guide to the Galaxy, where the answer to life, the universe and everything is sex workers, I'm your host, Parker Westwood. Today I'm bringing to you an interview I did with a friend of mine who is involved in ANSWER (A Network of Sex Workers to Excite Revolution) in Detroit, and they're going by the name Chad for this interview. We end up talking about a lot of things. Privilege is kind of sprinkled in throughout and-- but some of the highlights are talking about STIs and PREP. We get to talk about the healing aspects of the sex of sex work as a as a career path, obviously, doesn't always have to be healing. We cover that. Don't worry about it. And so many other things, harm reduction, choice, there-- I do want to say that for those of you who cannot handle hearing us talk about sexual assault or suicide attempts, then this might not be the episode for you. In that case, there are plenty of other episodes to go back in the catalog and listen to, if that is not something that your being can handle currently. And I say that with no judgment and so much love. There's a point in the interview I want to bring up just to clarify a little bit. Chad and I are talking about this idea of like, acting as therapy, and I bring up the phrase like, fake it till you make it. And like trying on different pieces of a personality just to see if they fit you. And like how therapeutic that can be, or how it can trick your brain into thinking-- into, like, creating the happy hormones that make us happy, sometimes. I just want to make sure that it is said, because I didn't say it in the interview. We were moving a little too fast that that there's a difference between what I'm talking about there and complete masking and, like hiding who you are so that you'll be accepted. One is liberating, one is exciting. One is an like a process of trial and error, and the other is full of shame and fear. And obviously they can look the same, and it's only like, only the person who is doing it can really know. But I just wanted to differentiate between those two things, because as someone who's done a bit of both, it's important. And I don't want to encourage people hiding or putting up walls and masking like that. Anyway, but also, if you do it, so much love to you and compassion and you're lovable just the way that you are, even if you don't know what that is. Okay. All that being said, we got to do a little bit of a thing before we get into the actual interview. So if you'd like to support the show, come support us over on patreon.com/sexyGalaxypod. 50% of the proceeds go to support sex worker exclusive art events put on by ANSWER Detroit, (A Network of Sex Workers to Excite Revolution), whom you can check out at answerdetroit.org You can also follow the podcast on social media, namely Twitter, @sexyGalaxypod, which is, I don't really do a lot over there, but Come follow us anyway. And, yeah, maybe, maybe i will. Oh, one more thing before we get to the interview, I've gone back and for the first year of episodes added transcripts. I'm trying to catch up. I feel like it's really important to have transcripts for people who can't listen to the episodes but still want the information, the experience, just trying to make the show a little bit more accessible as we go along here. So check that out. There are scripts now available, and if you can't find them for whatever reason, feel free to reach out to me at sexygalaxypod@gmail.com. Okay, we're finally getting into the interview. I hope you enjoy it. It's full of so much. Let's do it. All right, listeners, I'm here with a very special guest, someone dear, near and dear to my heart. We work together doing ANSWER things, and I'm just excited to introduce you, but I'm going to let them introduce themselves. So Chad, if you wouldn't mind sharing your name, your pronouns, location and what kind of sex work you do.

Hi everyone. Thank you for having me. I go by Chad, and I live in Dallas, Texas. I identify as he, him pronouns, and I am an escort.

Fantastic. Welcome to the show. So I'm so excited to have you here. I was curious if you'd be willing to share how you got started into sex work. What was your origin story in the sex work industry.

Okay. So I started escorting at the age of 16. I come from I live in Texas. I live in Dallas now, but I moved to Dallas when I was 18. So prior to that, I lived in a really small town in East Texas. And, you know, I grew up relatively poor. Just based off of, like, childhood trauma and things that happened within my, you know, my life. And I got into sex work, basically off of Grindr, um, when I was 16. And I was simply just looking for companionship at the time. Um, just because in a small town, I didn't really have outside of support for My family. I didn't really have any friends or have any people that looked like me or identified like me. So I, as we all do, I went to I went searching on Grindr for it, and, you know, the opportunity kind of fell in my lap to accept money for companionship. And that's kind of how it all began. And even after that experience, that same individual helped me, you know, get my first job, and helped me actually get to Dallas when I turned 18. So it's been kind of a really impactful moment. I never thought that I was meant for a small town just based off of, you know, my trauma and the things that I identify with. I definitely felt like I would be more accepted in a bigger city. And so, you know, I was able to make that jump and do it successfully because of escorting.

That's fantastic. And at 16, at me, for me, when I think about 16, me at 16, I'm just like, Oh, my God, I would have had the worst boundaries. Because also, like, like, you said, when, when we're survivors of trauma, of really, like, any kind of trauma, boundaries are really, really tough. So just, I know we had all these other questions that I do want to jump into, but I'm curious. Like, what was your experience being so young and like, did you have a lot to learn around boundaries? Are you willing to share a little about that?

Yeah. My-- Since I, you know, experienced so much trauma in my childhood, I've kind of always had boundaries, and I had a build those at a very young age, just because, you know, my experiences as a kid, I felt like a lot of control was taken away from me. So the way that I navigated my atmosphere was by taking back that control. And even in my first experience escorting, when I was 16, I felt in control of something for the first time in my life. So the boundary was solidified just by me being there and controlling the atmosphere around me. And it's realizing that even at a young age, it's hard for me to understand that I realized it back then, but even back then, I realized that they needed me out of their own intentions, and so in order for them to have me in the way that they wanted me, I was able to create the control around the the situation. And although I haven't escorted, like, what's the word consistently over the past 10 years,

Wow. Yeah.

Um, each experience that I've had escorting my my boundaries got stronger. And, you know, I I really felt like my worth was more than more than a dollar sign, but it was more like how I can impact this person. I knew for a long time that I wanted to help people. And I didn't realize it at the at the time, but I realized that escorting was helping people as well as beneficial to me as well. So the boundaries are always changing, growing, getting stronger. And even with some people, I do kind of, you know, let the boundaries fall a little bit so I can be genuine and authentic, because I don't want to hide parts of me that might help other people.

Totally. Yeah, but the important part is that that's a that's a choice when you let those boundaries down. Yeah, I love that. escorting was a place where you found to, like, take your power back. I think that for me, that was something that was definitely there. But I had, I had, personally, had a lot of work to do around my boundaries. And I love hearing that, like, at 16, you were just like, "I know my. Worth."

Absolutely. You have to be strong minded. I mean, my friends tell me all the time like it takes a special kind of person to do this work, and it does. But at the end of the day, you know, I I think about my life, and I think about what I've been through, and escorting has been such a huge positive light in my life because of because of my experience as a child and not having that strong, fatherly figure that most of us often seek. I was able to find that within my clients and within my partnerships with other people. And I don't think I'd be anywhere close to where I'm at today if I did not have those relationships, not just financially, but mentally and physically. You know, I think we as humans, we all are after finding love and finding companionship, and I think that's just a part of our DNA, but to find someone that supports you in every single way possible is rare, and I was able to find that through escorting and build those relationships and build sustainable friendships, and that's what's been most impactful for me.

Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think a lot of times in our society, we get hung up on where we find those, either like, fatherly figures or motherly figures. Like, I think that if you can find them, if you can remember your worth, if you can be clear on your boundaries, like, why not lean into that and, like, find that healing. Like, if you didn't have that father figure, being able to to find that in someone else, that's fantastic. I guess this is I'm gonna, like, jump around in our question list a little bit, because this feels like we're going right into this idea of sex work as, like, healing and for both you and the client. So if you wouldn't mind sharing maybe some of those experiences you've had with clients where either it was a healing impact for you or for them.

Absolutely, there's one person that comes to my mind quite often. He's someone that I met, like, three years ago. So, you know, I met him at a time where he was struggling with his identity in a sexual or- orientation. He was married to a woman, had kids, but was older, and because he was struggling with his identity, he fell into, you know, alcohol abuse and substance abuse, and he was finding himself oftentimes, like in jail, because he couldn't quite figure out how to navigate himself and navigate how to manage his family outside of his identity and, you know, things like that. And it I was able to watch him go through these things. And although I do have my boundaries and my walls up most of the time, you know, I actually started to care for this person, because I remember being that person when I was younger, and it was kind of crazy for me to watch that happen in someone that is older than me, because I've had a different experience than him growing up being gay. I identify as pan he identifies as gay, but being gay in that age, back in the day, was just not something that was accepted and not talked about. And so he's been struggling with this for decades. So I was actually able to help him, like recenter his mind and recenter his energy, and kind of like, prioritize the thing that the things that he cares about, and one of those things was his identity and his sobriety and...

Good.

...he was able to accomplish that. He was able to move out of the house that he was living in with his wife, and, you know, get into rehab, and also move into our gay neighborhood in Dallas, and just really find himself in a different way. He had never knew what it felt like to be complimented by a guy just walking down the street in a neighborhood that supports us, and it was able to open his eyes to a lot more things. And he's, I mean, I actually had dinner with him last night, you know, he's just so much happier. And he's healed. He's not fully healed, obviously, but he's healing. Who is? Yeah. It means, like I said earlier, it means more to me to help people than a dollar sign. Like I've seen the evolution of him and the evolution of myself too, because when he met me as well, I was, you know, a baby. I'm 20. I was 23 at the time, and, you know, I was still navigating different challenges in life, and although I'm still experiencing the same challenges, he was able to help me figure out how to budget, how to navigate life, and I've never really had that before. They don't teach you that in school,

No, which is the most obnoxious thing. They really should,

Right. And going back to me not having that fatherly figure, I was able to find that in him, but in a nurturing and caring way, like he never took advantage of me. He always respected my boundaries and respect boundaries and respected my walls and just respected my voice, and even supports me doing things like this. So it's, it's, it's just been really cool. And I know, and I know that my experience is very different from someone that's black and someone that's Brown, and I hold a certain privilege, and I think even Me being in this spot today with you is a privilege, and if, if my work is meaningful to anybody, it is to utilize my privilege to create spaces for those communities because they experience severe discrimination and severe disparities in sex work, HIV, you know, prevention, harm reduction, all these different things that occur in the LGBTQIA community and just the sex worker community in general. So these experiences have really helped me become a true advocate and a true human that's dedicated towards helping these people in my community and people that look like me.

Absolutely I love that. And one of the things you kept mentioning too was like having your walls up, having your boundaries. And one of the things that kept coming to my mind was just like, we can, we can have our boundaries with people and yet still have compassion for them. You were able to find sort of this symbiotic relationship with this client, because it's like, Yes, he was able to help you learn how to budget and like, do all of these life things that were not taught, but you were able to give him space to really be himself. I think there's a lot, like you said, there's a lot of, well, let's just -- Gen Z is the shit. And like, there's been so much that has happened over the course of the last many decades that, like, it is so much easier to be a gay person in the world today than it was 30 years ago. And so to have someone younger be able to kind of help liberate this gay man is just like a beautiful thing. I love that story. That's so great.

I agree, and that's just like one of many, you know, people I've helped, but that's probably the been the most impactful one for me. Um, just because I don't no longer consider him a client, and I often don't use that word anymore, just because it makes them feel kind of less than and I don't want anybody seeking companionship to feel like they're less than the individual that they want to have have companionship with. So I call them my friend. I call them my partner. I call them whatever makes me feel comfortable and whatever makes them feel comfortable, but this specific individual; he is my friend. Individual, he is my friend and he is my companion. Because this is, this is life, you know, this isn't just a made up world, you know. These are, these are real life experiences and real human souls that we are talking about. And as humans, I think we all have room to heal and all have room to grow. And it means a lot to me to be that person in his life, that that safe space and that safe haven, to be able to come to me and tell me all the things he's going through, and me having someone that's identified as gay and pan for a long time, I've already hopped over those hoops and, you know, done the work and done my self discovery. So I'm able to use my experience, and my knowledge, my expertise, to help someone that has just entered this world.

Yeah, I think too, that, at least in my experience, and from what you're telling me, too, it's-- clients will-- They're looking for a neutral party, oftentimes. Like a compassionate neutral party. Like they can't-- a lot, a lot of the ones that I've, I've helped to either like, you know, get sober or like, try different, try different things. Maybe they're into pegging, who knows, but they're like things that they haven't gotten to do, that they feel kind of ashamed. Or they just need someone who's not emotionally involved in their life, or it's not going to like why wildly negatively impact their life if this person has a negative response to what they have to say, and kind of work things through with someone who's not their Life partner. And like you being able to be there for this person and work things through before they go to their wife, so that it's not so emotional and they're not so reactive. I think that's I think that's really important to recognize. And obviously it's not every client. There's totally clients that are just there to, like, get laid and like, that's it. This is-- Sex work is not always healing. It is definitely about the money, Sometimes. **laughter** Absolutely. Yeah, I would say I would well, for me, it's like, I love being able to connect with people, but if the money wasn't there, I would not be connecting with these people. And so it's like, I get the beautiful thing, but I also get to pay my rent. Um,

19:50

Absolutely. Or, you know, you've paid your rent already, and you can use this money to garden, or you can use this money to support your partner. Or, you know, there's, there's, I. I don't really firmly believe tha money, that money makes the world go round. It's just what helps make life easier. And you know, it's it's good to say that it's beneficial for both parties. I can't say that that's the same experience for every every person, because it's definitely not. But you know it is-- It is impactful on both sides. And it's like you said, it's not always healing. It's not sometimes I have traumatic experiences, you know, but at the end of the day, I'm still alive. And you know, I have to learn how to channel that trauma into my work and my passions, and part of that channel is in escorting and is in sex work, because part of my traumatic childhood has been channeling all of my anger and frustration and depression and all these things into the character and the person that I've created for myself, and it has healed me in a way that therapy never can. And it's my form of therapy, and my form of therapy is okay.

Yeah, There's, there's a lot, actually, like a bunch of research done about like acting or taking on a personality, and not, not necessarily, like multiple personality disorder, but like act-- like acting, like theater, and how beneficial that can be. And there's, there is an element of that in escorting. Like, we put on a character or a persona. Even if it is, like, just a smidgen away from our authentic selves, like, it's still a persona. And it can still give us that, like, therapeutic... You know, the the the like, fake it till you make it thing, there's an element, there's an element of truth in that, like I will pretend to be super duper confident, especially in social situations, to the point where eventually I believe it. And I think that there's a piece of that with escorting and acting where we like-- it's therapeutic because we get to try on a different way of being and see how it feels.

Right.

And I really like that

There are different versions of yourself. It's not taking away from your authenticity. It's just expanding, expanding who you are. And like you said, it's not even if it's just a smidgen of you know, being happier with this person, or, you know, being the way that that you're being the person that they need. And although it may be acting-- Sometimes like for me personally, I even before I meet a potential client, I'm like, I'm always going to be myself. And if that's not something that you can keep up with and not something that you can respect, then I'm not the right fit for you, yeah? And we can experience that and see, but at the end of the day, don't be mad at me because you haven't found the right companion. You know, it's, it's all up to you.

Yeah. And there's a, again, that's like, the certain amount of privilege that we have to be able to, like, turn clients down and Granted, like, I've turned clients down when I got bills that are due and I don't have money in my bank account, like, I've been in that position, but like, I still am privileged enough to be, like, to make that decision where it's like, I'm not going to take that client if it doesn't feel right. And I think that's that's really important. And when we're talking about, like, sex work as work, recognizing that, like, there are some of us that get to make that choice.

Right. It's like, turning down a job, you know, turning down a contract opportunity, yeah, it's not everything is going to be a fit for you. And it's like, it's like, when you have a client, you lose that client, it's like losing a job. It hurts, especially someone that you care about. Yeah, but you know, you also have to remind yourself that there's so many people around the world, like the opportunities are endless. And that that's to say that comes with job opportunities as well. And sex work is a job, and it is something that protects people and heals people. And I think that's important to talk about as well, because although it's not healing all the time, and although it's not there's not protection always, because we hold a certain privilege for our skin color. It is. It is very similar. And it's just, I feel like sex work and escorting and all forms of sex work are creative and beautiful at the same in many different ways. I mean, I could talk about this all day, but it's just like, I feel like for most people, especially on platforms like OnlyFans and, you know, rent men and feet finder, and you know, there's all these different platforms that are legalized and people take advantage of, which they should. Because at the end of the day, there are a lot of sex workers that pay their taxes and do their due diligence as a citizen in the United States, and they deserve to be recognized and deserve to be able to hold those spaces, because we are just likeeverybody else you know. So, yeah.

Yeah. We are just like, everybody. Also, I want to, I was like, I also want to say that if speaking on the privilege piece, and like, being able to make those decisions, if more people had their basic needs met, and like, health care was different in this country and all sorts of like, all of those things, more people would be able to make those choices. Like,

Absolutely,

Yeah. I want to to highlight that piece a little bit.

Without fear of the acquisition of HIV or Hep C or STIs or anything like that. If health care was truly equal, I think we'd be in a very different place nowadays. And one of the most impactful things for me as well in the work that I've done the past four years is, you know, PREP advocacy. And if people don't know what PREP means, it's pre exposure prophylaxis, and it's a pill that you can take once a day to effectively prevent the acquisition of HIV. And I've been on PREP for four years, and even with my clients that have never heard of PREP, I've been able to advocate for them and help them access those resources because because of my privilege and because of my knowledge. Yeah, and there it's all about. I know that there's social media and there's all these things out there, but it really does take having that conversation with someone to really inspire someone to make a decision for themselves. And my clients have been able to access either HIV treatment or prevention because I was able to have the book of resources readily available to me, and because of the connections and my friends that work in this community as well. You know, it's it's all about educating and advocating for yourself, and if you can't do that first, then you won't be successful. And there's a certain privilege. And Privilege is going to be a common word in this I think there's a certain privilege that comes with that, because not everyone has access to social media, not everyone has access to the things that they need. And I think part of having this conversation is talking about that and realizing the work that still needs to be done for our community.

Absolutely, of which there is a lot, which you and I are both aware, yes, yeah, oh, my God, so many things that I wanted to talk about. But I will say I'm going to be linking information about PrEP in the show notes, because I think that if there's anyone who is curious or just wants to know more or wants to get some PrEP, there are easy ways to do that, and I'll be linking that in the show notes, because PrEP is fantastic. It's truly magical. So, which is-- that you just led us, you just set me up for the perfect transition, and I love, love it. Cause I was going to ask you about your HIV education and like, how that how that's been part of your sex work experience, because you've been able to introduce clients to PrEP and HIV treatment and stuff like that. Have you also been able to do that with other sex workers?

Absolutely it's crazy, because when I was navigating, when I was 23 I tried to commit suicide, and just based off of many factors in life, I would say. It's-- I laugh about it now because I remember that person. I remember how like unstable I was, and not to laugh at the experience, but, you know, I was just so under educated and so naive. And you know, someone you know, took a chance on me and saved my life in a way. And it was with my first job in HIV, and I was working in a pharmacy. I was able to see the process of what it takes to access PrEP and the different resources in my city and across the state of Texas. And know how to do the applications for people that don't have insurance or people don't have documented status here in the United States. And I was able to take that experience and the experience I did for three years by advocating more and more, and I I kind of hate the fact that I wasn't so confident in who I was as a sex worker back then, because I could have done a lot more work. Umm. But that's work I'm doing now. So it's, you know, linking people to resources, and also my fellow sex workers out there, you know, getting on the apps, getting on all these different platforms, doing, you know, street outreach and say, you know, linking people saying, "Hey, this is what this is." I've had a lot of people that are sex workers that are afraid to get tested because they're afraid of what they're going to find out. And it all has to do with HIV stigma and STI stigma and all these different stigmas that are out there. But having, just having a normal human to human conversation always works better, because you're able to identify in some way with that person, and vice versa,

Yeah.

And being able to see someone be afraid to get tested for HIV to then months later, getting tests for HIV, coming out as negative, getting on PrEP, just seeing that evolution. Of a person and someone finding their power again, and like, fighting stigma, has been impactful for me, but most importantly, been impactful for them. Because the work only happens if you talk to people like, like I mentioned earlier, social media is there, but not everyone has access to that. So if someone's you know, potentially doing sex work, you know, out in the community, you know, not on these apps and these other privileged platforms. You know, they don't know about these resources, and they don't know anything about what's going on. And being able to, hey, point down the stream, be like, "Hey, you can go down there, get tested, get on PrEP. The pharmacy that I work for will deliver it to you, or I will personally come out to you and bring it to you".

Yeah.

And I've had experiences where I've had to do that, and seeing the emotions on their face like to see someone take that extra step and really care about them changes their whole life path. Yeah, it's so important to as we evolve as a society, to remember that. Because at the end of the day, we all we are all humans. And we all have feelings. We all have emotions. We all have trauma. We all have things that we need to work on. And just having that human to human contact, and having someone that identifies with the experience that you are going through helps wavelengths. You know, it's, it's, it's amazing.

Yeah, it really, it really does mean a lot to hear someone who has been through the experience be there for you and, like, talk to you about it. The STI shame and and stigma is just like such a real deal, even when you're even when you're, like, educated about it. And you know all the things. When I got my first STI, I talked to-- I had so much shame about it, because it was while I was a sex worker. And I was going through the whole thing of, like, how is this going to impact my ability to work? Like, how long is it going to take to recover from this? Da da da da da. Like, all of the just flooding thoughts, and the first person I talked to about it was another sex worker who's been in the industry for a long time. And she said to me, she looked at me, I said the thing, and I was just like, kind of shaking. I was like, near tears. I was really scared to, like, admit it to somebody. And she looked at me, and she goes, "Oh, baby's first STI,"And just like the relief, like the I just started laughing, and the relief that I felt from like someone not making it a huge deal. And just like-- I was like, You're right, you're right, you're right. It's not a big deal. It's a thing that's easily treatable, yes, and it's not shameful. And I will easily, like, I will be able to recover quickly and continue to work. There are safety precautions I can take from here, like, even with being safe, I still had got an STI, it's like there's no shame in it. We are all human beings.

Right? And also to remind yourself that the potential risky sex, I don't like that word, but that's like the word used by the government. You're putting your yourself at risk. But these things are easily, easily able to be navigated. And have-- I think the most difficult part about, you know, acquiring an STI during, you know, participating in sex work is having that conversation with your client. It they are also stigmatized by these things as well. So it's having a stigmatized conversation with someone that's stigmatized and another person that is stigmatized by STI. So it's just, it's, it's a hard conversation. And you don't, I feel like sex, sex workers worry about whether it's gonna, like you said, impact their job, and how long it's gonna take, and, you know what, whether resources are available for treatment. Because no-- oftentimes they're not. And you know, just having the access, it's all about it's just access. It's all about access. And, you know, as someone that also experienced getting my first baby STI, it's, it is kind of, it is scary, you know, because, because, at the time, you're not educated about anything, you know, you're like, Well, shit had happened to me. What do I do now? But at the end of the day, everything is treatable, and sex is meant to be fun.

Exactly. Yeah.

And having these, I like to reference a toolbox, because not everyone is going to use all the same protective measures, like condoms, dental dams, PrEP, you know, all these different avenues of protection, but having at least, at least utilizing one item in the toolbox is putting your health first, I think. Totally. Because in sex work, I want to have the most fun, yeah, and I don't want it to just be a transactional thing. I want to enjoy myself throughout the longevity of the experience. And having that toolbox ready, readily available to me, has helped me navigate those different circumstances where I Have acquired an STI.

Yeah.

And knowing like having the honest conversation always goes further. Especially when having the conversation with your client or partner. You know, because a lot of times sex workers have partners at home, you know. And I wish that was more likely, you know, because a lot of people don't date sex workers because they have a fear of losing the love for that person or just like that, their partner is falling in love with someone else when it's really just not that.

Right. There's so much stigma there. Yeah,

Yes, people have yet to learn how to separate sex from love because they're two different things.

They are.

And it is. It is a work in progress, even for me, just because I I'm just, like, a very protective person as as a human in, you know, I think about, like, the impact that would make in my, my mental health, and I want to protect that person that I'm with at all costs.

Totally, yeah, one thing too, I was going to talk about with, like, condom use and contraception and things like that, one thing that popped up was that, like, that's harm reduction is, like, making sure that that's available to sex workers, because it's it like, We're privileged enough to be able to go, like, I didn't have health insurance for a while, and so, like, every time I'm able to go to the doctor and get an STI test done, or what have you, is that is a privilege. Granted. It's a privilege I pay a pretty penny for, but it's still a privilege. And I think that providing STI testing and contraception and thing-- and like that information and resource to to sex workers for free is a form, is a really important form of of harm reduction. Um, because it is, it's a privilege too to like, make the choice to not use contraception that's available. Um, and, yeah, you're right. A lot of clients will, like, have pressured me to not use a condom. I mostly because I love being a dick. I just tell I make them like you have to use a condom. Especially now that you're pressuring me, we're gonna, like, use three condoms at once, because you're being an asshole. But But I think it's but that's the thing too. Is like, the stigma around STIs is that you can still get an STI if you are diligent about condom use and contraception. Like, that's one of the things where it's like, it doesn't matter. There's still a risk. Like, what is it? Condoms are, what's like, 94% for sperm. And that's a sperm, like other bacteria can, can get around that pretty easily.

Absolutely. And, I mean, just like oral sex in general, you can acquire an STI through that. And exactly same. I know a lot of my my trans family members are like, they require their client to wear a condom, even through oral sex. And I'm like, work, bitch. Why it's like, it, like I mentioned earlier, it's all about what you put in your toolbox. I mean, you have condoms available, use them. It is a form of harm reduction. I just know, personally, I don't like that. And I.. Totally. ...to me, to me, condomless sex as a as a pan person, is just more fun for me. Yeah, because, you know, I just, I... **laughter** I I'm not I'm not ashamed to say that I just I like what I like. I'm a freak and I but with that also comes privilege, and even with the clients that you know I have condomless sex with, I am still able to provide resources to these people, and if so happens, I do acquire an STI, you know, because I'm not just having sex with clients, you know, I'm having sex all across the book.

Yeah, you've got your own romantic and sexual life.

Right.

Yeah.

I have my own kinks. I have my own fetishes. I have my own like, in it's... it is what it is at the end of the day.

It's also... I would say too, like we all take risks in any industry that we're in, not just sex work. But like, we're specifically talking about the risks and sex work. And if that's a risk like you want to take, or if that's a risk I want to take, that's up to me. Like that is a that is a thing, that-- that's our choice, which is largely what we're talking about, is like, we all make choices in this industry.

Absolutely. And just like normalizing the fact that women can take PrEP too. A lot of women that are in hetero relationships or doing hetero sex work, like don't feel as if they that prep is for them. And I think that's a hard miss. And there's just not enough awareness About that, because everybody deems HIV one as a gay disease.

Yes! After all these years, still so gay disease. But what we know is that bacteria doesn't give a shit about your sexual orientation or what genitalia you have and or virus, I guess not bacteria, but like that, that too, HIV does not, is not discriminatory,

Absolutely. And also, just like I said, there's not enough awareness about it, and so women, women are the leading demographic of individuals acquiring HIV and acquiring STIs, and a lot of people don't, don't see that and don't talk about it, because there's not enough studies done on women. One, even our research is discriminatory against women and trans men, you know, and those individuals need to be a part of that research, because they are the most impacted. And once again, society deems HIV and anything related to sexual health as a gay thing, and it's just not. And it's something that I've realized over time, and I've tried to push that message out to other people.

That's fantastic. I love that. Well, I'm so glad we dove into this. I did not expect us to like talk about STIs and shit, even like sharing the fact that I've had an STI was like, Ooh, I got nervous sharing that on the podcast, but I think it's important to talk about So, and that's what we're here. We're here to talk about real life things,

Just so everyone knows, all STIs are treatable.

Yes,

HSV one, HSV two, HIV, gonorrhea, chlamydia, you know, all these things are treatable. And HIV, especially because with with remaining consistent on medication, you're able to remain undetectable and have a suppressed viral load, which means you can't transmit HIV to any of your partners, as long as you stay consistent and adherent to your medication. So just keep that in mind as you know you navigate that journey in your life, because HIV is a highly stigmatized topic, and don't let that stigma take over your life and take over your power. Because that's something that is treatable. And although you do live with HIV for the rest of your life, until there is a cure, it is manageable, and your life can remain the same. Right? Yeah, it's that. It's not curable, but it's also not the end of the world. You can live a normal life if you keep... Have sex! Have sex, dammit! Pleasure is important, and pleasure is part of healing. So I wanted to talk we have a whole thing of talking about stigma and judgment in vanilla workplaces and in the LGBTQ community, which is something you experienced a shit ton of, unfortunately. So I'm happy to start wherever, like if you want to start with vanilla workplace, and then we can venture into LGBTQ however you want to do it. Absolutely. I think, you know, as someone that has participated in sex work, I never thought in a million years I would ever experience discrimination from anyone you know, because I was just so oblivious. You know, I've often been questioned, you know, why didn't I think about the effects when I posted my ads online? Or why didn't I think of this, or why didn't I think, why didn't I get a second job? Or why didn't I do this, you know, and those questions are highly traumatizing, but, you know, my first experience with discrimination actually happened about a year ago, and it broke me into a million pieces because it was with an organization that I've supported for a decade, you know, as an organization, when I first moved out to Dallas, that tested me for HIV, you know, treated my first STI I later became a volunteer. I later became a pharmacy partner, and then later on, became a board member. And took eight years of, you know, navigating these different life experiences to find out what I was truly passionate about. And it is about my community. And you know, for me to go into that application process and ultimately be told that they have they had a fear of having a sex worker on the board because of the vision and the views of donors and the linkage to PrEP and the linkage to HIV, and it just at the end of the day, ultimately, being told no, and me walking away from that experience hating myself even more, and like, letting that shadow capsulate my life. And it did for three months, and it was a very hard three months for me, because...

I'm gunna pause you here for a second, just because, like, I do want to talk about, like, that shame narrative that infiltrates our our minds. Like, that's, that's, they have shame about having a sex worker on the board, and in a culture that is like, very victim blamey and, um and stigmatizing like that narrative enters our head, and that's where those like "I should have...", like shameful things sort of come up. And first of all, I'm sorry that you had to go through that. But I'm grateful that you bring that up because it is, it is an important piece of like... That's not ours to own, and yet we are often-- that's shoved on to us as a community and as individuals,

Absolutely and just keep in mind, like this organization, what is an LGBTQIA supporting organization was founded on the basis of HIV. And so if you go back in time, you know black and trans women were the first people to really stand up for sex workers. And even in the Stonewall riots, like people don't think that's anything. And it's like that actually happened, you know. And the foundation of all these organizations that are popping up are on the backs of sex workers, and because sex workers stood up during that time and fought for people living with HIV and the things that were happening in our community, specifically to us. And so that experience was shameful for me. I walked away from that experience destroyed because I never, like I said earlier, I never thought a million years I would go through that and that my community would potentially turn their back on me, and that's what I felt like at the time, and I think that's very valid. Although, after a few months of, you know, not being able to get out, like, leave my apartment and face the world, I was able to, you know, listen to my support system, listen to my friends tell me that this spot is yours, and if anybody's gonna do it, it's gonna be you. And I did it, and I went back and fought for it, and I went back and got it, and I was able to sit on that board for eight months before I resigned. And I'm not able to talk much about my experience on the board because non disclosure agreements and contracts, but what I can say is that,

Oh damn. Yes.

You see, I'm not saying an organizational name, right? Okay.

You're doing a great job. I'm very impressed.

But you know, I did, you know, I did experience microaggressions and oftentimes being told that I couldn't post certain things, or, you know, I couldn't do certain things because of the view of the organization and where they were trying to go. And, you know, potentially trying to protect because of my experience, I was working on things to protect future board members, because my intention overall changed from when I first applied to be on the boards when I got on the board. So my trauma made my my intentions change and not that's not a bad thing. I joined the board to help and help build the organization in a way that supports people like me. And ultimately, at the end of my eight month frame that ultimately was denied once again. And that was just it for me, you know, and my integrity was being compromised. I was I felt shameful towards myself again after I've worked so hard to love myself and love my life experiences. So, you know, I resigned from that board, and I experienced severe backlash from individuals that are on the board, you know, executive leadership and potentially people telling me that I'm lying and that I'm pushing false narratives upon individuals and the organizations. Which is not true. It's i Nothing makes me more angry than when people try to deduct and minimize my life experience, and especially from someone that I looked up to as a mentor, a friend, someone that I saw as a beacon, you know. It it hurt me mentally and but at the same time, I see it as a blessing, because now I'm able to see people from who they really are and learn how to navigate that. Because now I'm able to truly advocate for my People and do in a way that is impactful for them, and I'm so happy that this experience happened to me and not someone else, because I was able to navigate all my trauma and channel it. And a lot of people that experience severe trauma like that, being as a sex worker or any life experience, being told that you don't have a place to sit at the table, although the table was created by people like you, it's traumatizing and it's just shitty. It's just a shitty feeling. It's a shitty experience, and there's a lot more work to be done in protections for people that are on staff, that are sex workers, because we all know that nonprofit people don't get paid what they're worth because the funding is not available, and it's just that's what life is right now. So people are having to rely on other revenues and other things, and potentially risks, you know, the fact that they may get fired for that, or may be discriminated for that. And my intention was fully to protect those people, because those people are. my friends, yeah, and people that, when I went through that were supporting me, and they were staff members. And they were like, We need, please keep going. Please do--. We need you there. We look up to you. We love you. We need you to fight for us. And it's like, that's at the end of the day. That's why I continued for as long as I did.

Yeah, It's also a lot of pressure. And like, yeah, no, no single one of us should ever be like this spokesperson for everyone, because not any single one of us has the same experience, right? But I also think, like it's the nonprofit trauma is such a real thing, and what what really is hard about working in nonprofits is that, like, the original idea for this nonprofit might be so well intentioned and actually be what what it were getting behind, but it's when you start adding in, like grant money, and these like metrics that are assigned to the grant money, and like, everything gets warped, and then this, the thing that we're fighting for, gets filtered through grant qualifications and PR and all this stuff. And then we're not-- we're fighting in the wrong direction. It's like a prism, the light goes through and gets shot off in the wrong direction. And so you were, you were trying to fight for, like, the actual meaning behind this organization. And they were like, like, that's not the direction we're headed, and that's really unfortunate. And clients that access to their services will potentially suffer because of that. It's horrible. Yeah. It's frustrating. It's it's wildly frustrating that it was one of my biggest qualms with nonprofits, was like, I, I felt like I was working in one direction, and they kept trying to steer me in another. And it was, I was like, you're saying one thing, but you're doing another and I am lost. Because I too have been called naive and like I just didn't understand why it had to be so complicated. Absolutely. And let's remind everybody that most of these organizations and these grants that people qualify for, and that organizations qualify for. There is verbiage in these grants that state the need to access the sex worker community and provide services to them, and provide HIV testing, provide treatment, and provide all these things so to potentially discriminate against, not only people that are accessing these services, but people that are wanting to make these services more accessible. It's harmful, and it's the complete opposite of harm reduction. My-- I've had several people tell me that it makes no sense on why that would happen to you, especially since you have that lived experience, and they can utilize that lived experience to help other people. And I completely agree. And at the end, at the end, at the end of the day, you know, life happens and decisions happen. And this is, I'm not the only person that goes through this. You know, it's this isn't a job that was paying my bills. You know, this is something that I volunteer my time for and because I cared about it. So imagine people that are actually working in the workplace, that may have had a history of sex work in the past, or, you know, that may have had an OnlyFans, but want to reenter society post COVID, you know, and go back to the job that they had before, because it's now, now it's available again. And they're like, they relied on sex work during that time to pay bills because we were relying on stimulus checks and on unemployment. So it's I unfortunately, my I fortunately did not have to experience that, because I'd never lost my job. My job actually got more excessive, because when you work in pharmacy, it's like delivery is slow. Like we we have to go out into the community and deliver medication because, you know, shipments are late, or, you know, there's all these different barriers. And so, you know, imagine life, you know, post COVID, where someone relied on OnlyFans, or, you know, any escorting platform to pay their bills during that time, but then realized, hey, I want to go back this way, and then being discriminated against and being told no, because you do have that online presence, and you do have that experience online now, and being potentially harassed by employees because they know who you are, and they've seen you online, and they follow you, and they rent you, and they, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, not a protected thing in society. And if you even go to HR about harassment or discrimination there, there's no protections for you, like, that's, there's protections for everything else but us. So... And a part of that is because it's criminalized like sex work in-- I mean, as escorting at least, is is criminalized. Porn is very stigmatized. All sex work is stigmatized, but, um, I think that because it's criminalized, it's really hard for nonprofits to go anywhere near it. Um. So decrim, please. And then also,

Throw that in there.

Yeah, that just like and then also like nonprofits, I think they'll say like you said, they throw in the words of like, we want to help sex workers into their like grants or their statements of purpose or whatever, without really knowing what that means. Because if they're not willing to have a sex worker on the board, if they're not really, if they're not willing to, like, listen to a sex workers lived experience, or have us at the table, then like, they're just paying us lip service, or trying to get grant money.

55:39

See and that's something else that really bothers me, because, you know, there, oh god, I I can talk about this all day, love.

I don't mean to get you riled up, but I also love it when you're riled up.

55:51

I think I've done, I mean, I've done other interviews and stuff about this where I've gotten riled up and I've decided not to let those surface. This has probably been the best, comfortable experience I've had so far. So thank you for that. Um, I think I'm finally in a place where I can vocalize my healing and where I'm taking that healing to the next level. Because every every time a door shuts for sex workers is when another door opens, and whether that's, you know, going into a completely different direction with your life, or opening your own organization, or opening your own advocacy, or opening, you know, your own legislative you know, initiatives that you want to do, the possibilities are endless. I literally had someone, my friend, sit me down two days ago and say, Kevin, you know, you have the opportunity to write a bill. You know, write a bill, send it to Congress, send it to Senate. You know, it's and I never, I never even thought of that like so it's, it's opportunities are endless. We just have to have it's, we have to have an army because..

You're.. Well, yes, like, sex workers take care of sex workers we always have. But also, like, I just wanted to say, like, you're... the the yes-mentality that you have, the fact that someone was just like, you could write a bill and send it to Congress, and you were like, Yeah, I could. That makes my heart so happy. And that is the energy I love that you bring into a space. Because you're just like, yeah, like, Let's fucking do it. Yes,

Who's gunna do it. I mean, who's going to do it? You know? Like, I'm not going to sit around and wait for other people to do it. I might as well just well just take the opportunity and do it myself. And you know, part of that is, is, you know, I do want to start my own organization. I do want to start doing policy and advocacy, and I do because of my discrimination, because of my experiences, that has motivated me to work harder and motivated me to get out of bed and motivated me to care for my community in a way that I didn't know I had in me. Like, it's very, it's a very vulnerable thing to do, and it-- I constantly have to have this conversation with people, even the one I'm having with you today, and I may, after this, have to log off and, like, lay in bed for a minute, because it is, it is something that is really hard for me to talk about because of the trauma I've experienced. I have so many walls up and just afraid to say anything wrong, just because of people's perceptions of what I'm talking about. And if anything comes out of this, I hope that people can feel more comfortable in the skin that they're in, and feel more empowered by being who they are and just really taking their experiences and navigating them in a way to where they can impact other people and impact the community, because there's not enough people standing up, and there's not enough organizations like ANSWER which is the first sex work initiative organization that I've ever found in the United States. That's sick to me, like when I found ANSWER, when I was In Detroit a few months ago, I was in tears because I I'd never seen something so public and so openly vocalizing what they're doing. And that inspired me to even potentially start my own thing here, or have an ANSWER Dallas, or have, you know, there's so there's so much work to do, and it's **chanting** ANSWER Dallas.

59:00

The as things grow, opportunities grow, and I want to create spaces and jobs for people that go through the same things that I've been through. And that's what I want to do.

Have you, have you ever read about, um, like, COYOTE, Call Off Your Old, Tired Ethics. Okay? I was gonna say, like, there the sex work organizing history is something that really warms my heart, and like helps me, because knowing, knowing how far back it goes, knowing that other people have paved the path that ANSWER's currently on, that you are are about to, like, set Foot on, or have set foot on, like that really helps me to know that I'm not alone. And that was another thing I wanted to mention to you, to you and anyone out there who's listening, who wants to get into advocacy because that you you're saying like, I I'm going to do these things, and I'm going to do these things, and you often talk about having walls up. And I just want to remind you you are not alone. You can lean on your community and and in fact, like you can't do it alone, and I'm grateful to have you as a part of ANSWER. It's a it's a hard thing that I've also had to learn because I am a hyper independent person from my trauma. And so hearing you speak, I hear that in you, and I just want to remind you that, like, we gotta do this together.

Absolutely, it's a very lonely world out here, yeah, especially when you can't find many people that relate to you? And I've, I found that with ANSWER, and it's just been, just been crazy. Yeah,

Aww. I love you so much.

I don't know. It just it feels incredible and like, I don't know, like it said earlier, it motivates me to get out of bed. And, yeah, well, there's so many people out here experiencing things worse than me, and I can't be more grateful for having a space to really share those things, and oftentimes people minimize me. And it's shocking to me still, because I, you know, I thought for a long time I built enough respect within my world, you know, and having that respect challenged by people that don't really understand me, or just always feeling like I don't have people that get it, or don't have people that understand what I'm talking about and don't relate to me, has been, has been kind of heartbreaking, and I don't know, I'm grateful to be in this space with you, and grateful to be a part of something that's going to be bigger and potentially duplicating that and making it a mass, you know, a mass thing. You know, it's, it has to happen because sex work is happening everywhere. It's not It's the big it's the founding. People hate when I say this, but it really is a founding pillar of our society, and not just the LGBTQIA community, but everywhere since the beginning of time,

It ain't going nowhere.

It's more accessible now, and it's more out there and more because social media has, it has its good things and it has its bad things. But one thing I will say that's good been good about social media is the advocacy part, and is the policy part, because now people are listening, and now people are researching, and can find things I've also found, you know, my my passion researching the history of sex work and finding those people that started this in the very beginning in California, like the trans women, the black women, you know, they they started this revolution. And it's so impactful. And so it has to be reminded to people, because this didn't just start yesterday. It's been happening for a long time.

Yep, and we're gonna, we're gonna be doing it for a long time. Yes, yep, because once we get decrim, we're gonna be working on something else, you know, like it's, it is a process. Um, okay, so we're, we're winding down the interview, um, and I want to ask you one question before we do some rapid fire.

Okay,

What is something you want the greater public to understand about sex workers, or sex work as a whole?

A lot of things, but I'll try. I'll try to keep it short. As I mentioned earlier, sex work is a healing thing for, not all people, but a lot of people. And we're human beings. Also, if I want anyone to know anything, it's that, if you have been discriminated against and you have felt less than because of the people around you, find new people, because there are people out there like you, and it may take some time. But you know, as I mentioned earlier, anything's possible, and there are people out there searching for you, just as you're searching for them.

Yeah, absolutely

Rapid fire. I'm ready.

Love it. Alright Let's do it. Pancakes or waffles?

Um, waffles.

Vanilla or chocolate?

Chocolate.

Indica or sativa?

Indica.

Excellent. Favorite place you've ever been?

Portugal.

Ooh. A book from your mandatory reading list.

Um, Selena with Love.

Oh, I don't know this one. A song, an album, or a musical artist that you're currently obsessed with.

I've been obsessed with Selena my entire life, and I continue to be obsessed with Selena Quintanilla, the Mexican American singer,

Yes, excellent choice. What is your hidden talent?

Fisting

That gets me excited. Finish this sentence. Good sex is...

Shit. There's so many things popping in my head. Good sex.... Oh, shit. I.... Ah, good sex is empower-- Oh, no, no. Oh, my God. Good sex is free sex.

Oh, excellent. Um, if you had one superpower, what would it be?

Um, mind manipulation.

Nice, that is, that's it. I'm like, ooh, that's dangerous.

We might get more things done if we had that.

That's true. Something simple that brings you joy.

Flowers,

what do you have a favorite?

White roses. I love that. It was Selena's favorite flower.

I didn't know this about you. I'm so I'm so happy to know this about you now that you're obsessed.

My apartment is full of Selena things. Even back there, you can see her

on your kitchen counter.

Oh yeah, different versions of her from Etsy that i i purchased. I'm full. I love supporting small businesses and people that do creative work. So

Absolutely, Oh, you are fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on the show, and I get to see you very soon. So that's great. Absolutely. Yeah, let's say goodbye to the listeners and and then we'll log off. Absolutely. Goodbye everyone. Thank you so much, and I hope you enjoyed this, you know, podcast, Yeah, thanks, everybody. Isn't Chad a delight. I'm so grateful that I get to share Him with all of you. Our conversation spans so many different topics, but I'm including links in the show notes for access to PrEP in different countries, mostly just the US, the UK and Australia, because that's where most of my listeners are based. I also found a Planned Parenthood article about some things that sex educators want you to know about. STIs, and it's fantastic and totally not full of shame bullshit. I love that we get to talk about how other people's shame can be projected onto us and internalized by us, and the process that it takes to unravel that is so difficult, it's a lot of the healing work that people are doing has to do with other people's shame, which is kind of fucked, but we're out here. We're doing it. Um, yeah, so if you're doing that work right now, kudos to you. Go gently. And if you're not doing that work, perhaps, think about it. Um, should that be my space fact? No. No. I'll leave you with a Space Fact. Hold on. Let me. Let me think. All right, I'm coming at you with a Space Fact. This is more of a space fact that leads to another space fact, but we're gonna, we're gonna rock and roll with it. So Io is my favorite moon of Jupiter. I don't know why. It's probably because the name is cute, because that Yep, that's me. I did a report on it a long time ago. I don't remember anything, but I looked up this fact, and the fact declares that the orbital resonance and the tidal forces from Jupiter are the primary heat source of Io's volcanic activity, which is kind of bananas, thinking that, just like the gravitational effects of the planet that it orbits, that Io orbits, is its primary heat source, not the Sun. So that's wild. And then I was like, Well, what the hell is orbital resonance? So then I went on this rabbit hole, and basically there's a bunch of different kinds of orbital resonance. And apparently, a science fiction novel called orbital resonance. Okay, so as I understand it in my brief skimming of the internet on the subject, orbital resonance is when the orbits of celestial bodies influence one another, and this can be either stable or unstable. Stable meaning they can just keep doing their little dance bebop in their little, little drum beat, and they stay in their orbits and unstable, being like, eventually someone's gonna get kicked out of the orbit. What's coming to me is like, when you're tuning a guitar, you are trying to tune the string to the wavelength of the other string. And the wavelengths can be dissonant instead of resonant. And when they're dissonant, the waves kind of hit each other, and you can hear the wah wah wah. You can like hear it an attuned ear can hear these things and those waves are influencing one another. It reminds me of that basically, there's also it. It also reminds me of, I saw a video recently on YouTube of this guy who it puts sand. He makes art by putting sand on a black table, and it's like white sand, and he rubs various size like rubber balls or whatever, on it to create a resonant like a sound, a resonant sound, and the table vibrates with that sound, like the water in your cup when someone like walks by with really heavy feet, or when you're playing music really loud, and the surface of the water of your cup is is becoming waves. So the surface of this table is creating patterns because of the resonance, and it is moving particulates out into different places. And so orbital resonance does that in space. And that is why we see the gaps in the rings of Saturn. That is where, because of the orbital resonance, nothing can exist there. It is being ejected from that particular part of the ring. And what's interesting is resonance can have like, similar Pat-- like music patterns, it is more like math, but math is like music, so everything is magically related somehow, and I love it. I'm no scientist. Don't take my word for any of this. This was probably very confusing. I barely understand it, but it excites me nonetheless, so I hope you enjoyed it, too. Nanu, Nanu, motherfuckers.