Why are we here, and what happens to us after we die?

This episode answers those questions through the lens of the four great worldviews (theism, naturalism, paganism, and eastern thought).

A resource mentioned in this episode: The Universe Next Door, by James Sire.

How are you today, Nathan?

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Feeling energized.

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Awesome.

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Yeah, you?

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You know, for some reason,

talking and thinking about these

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things, like we're talking about

now, really energizes me also.

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Yeah, so, so today we are

getting back into our discussion

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on the four worldviews.

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Looking forward to that.

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It's been really, really good so

far just seeing, a summary of

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the way that a lot of people have

thought throughout the years.

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Right.

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And for those who haven't heard

the previous podcast, or maybe just

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need a refresher, I'm basically

breaking down human thought in the

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area of, philosophy and religion

into four families of worldview.

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One of those would be theism,

the belief that there is one God

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who created the universe, and

then all the flows out of that.

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Another you would call naturalism, which

is the worldview that I think arises

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very naturally from atheism, which would

view the natural world or the material

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world as the only thing that exists.

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And then the third worldview would

be basic Eastern thought, and in

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particular, pantheistic monism.

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So pantheism, God is in all things,

monism, all is one, which is especially

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associated with Hindu thought, but

much Buddhist thought and other.

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Eastern religions though they have a lot

of differences, they have philosophically

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much of the same worldview.

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And then the last worldview

is paganism or polytheism.

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The idea that there are many, many

gods or spirits within this world.

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So that's where we're at on that.

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Great.

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Great.

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And you said family, you're using that

term like a biological metaphor, right?

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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Family.

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And then you would have, species

and genus underneath that.

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So, under theism, you'd have three

main worldviews underneath that.

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They would be Christianity,

Islam, Judaism.

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Each of those is going to have

different ideas about many

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things, but philosophically,

they work much the same way.

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Thanks for that recap.

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So, today we're going to be

talking about the future.

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Yes.

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And how each of these four families

view what's to come in the future

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or what's not to come in the future.

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Right.

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Thanks a lot.

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So we're going to be looking at

what does the future hold both for

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the individual person as well as

humanity or the cosmos as a whole.

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So each one of these worldviews gives

a very different answer to that.

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Gotcha.

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So why is it important to think

about what lies in the future?

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Yeah, good question.

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One reason, perhaps the main reason

is because it helps you understand

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what the worldviews are teaching.

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So you can understand which

worldview you choose, to embrace.

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The goal is to live an examined life.

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Where you're examining yourself,

but also you're examining what you

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believe about these deepest things.

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You're not just going along the current

of whatever fads of intellectual

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thought are in your culture right

now, but you're consciously choosing

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A particular worldview that you

said, this is what I believe.

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Thomas Carlyle said, a man lives by

believing something, not about thinking

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and debating about many things.

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To be a fully mature human

means among other things that

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you have intellectually chosen,

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what kind of worldview you believe in and

then say to live that out consistently.

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Yeah.

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That seems to make sense to me.

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I'm a very goal oriented person.

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And so I think that there's a good,

illustration here of like, okay, I think

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about what the future holds or what

the future could hold cause there's

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potential there and then try to organize

my life accordingly to meet those goals,

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whether the goals are physical health or,

intellectual health, you know, whatever.

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Want to read a certain number of books

or with certain kinds of books or that

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those sorts of things to help me Meet

those goals and I think that part of

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the purpose is in life is derived from

what we understand the future to hold

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Sure So if my if my goal is to leave

a legacy like I need to be working for

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that now or if I want to be healthy

for my kids, that matters now because

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then I live my life intentionally and

in accordance with what I believe the

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future holds or what the future can hold.

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Yeah, definitely.

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I'm glad you brought that out.

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The idea of purpose, which we talked

about in a previous podcast and

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the idea of where we are headed.

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Do we have a future after death

and what does it look like?

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Those are very much tied in together.

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Right.

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You ready to get into these?

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Yeah, let's do this.

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And I thought for today,

anyway, we could go in reverse

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order from what we usually do.

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We usually start with theism, go

to naturalism, then to Eastern

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thought, and then to paganism.

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Let's reverse it today.

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And the reason why is because when

we deal with paganism or polytheism,

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I don't have as much to say.

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Okay.

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And that's because of two reasons.

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Number one, paganism and polytheism

don't usually give a systematic

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answer to what lies after death.

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And because of that, here's the second

reason, there's a lot of variation.

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Okay.

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Makes sense.

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Yeah.

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If you look at the paganism of the

ancient world, say the Greek world or

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the Mediterranean world, they don't have

a clear conception of what happens after

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death at all, from what I can see anyway.

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If you read the Greek literature of the

time, of the ancient world, where When

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Greece was polytheistic and paganistic

what you find is that after death you

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live in some sort of shadowy existence

So this is symbolized, but you cross the

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river Styx and then you live in Tartarus

and this underworld where you still exist

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in some way, but shadowy is really the

best way I think to describe that because

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You have some sort of consciousness, but

you don't have your full Bodily activity

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And it's kind of obscure how this works

out, but if you read the literature,

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you see people down and meeting the

shades of like Achilles and Hector

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and all these, heroes and whatnot.

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And that's what they're called.

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They're called shades.

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That's derived from shadow, obviously.

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It's like when you're standing outside

in the sun, there are two things.

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There's you and you're a

shade, the shadow you create.

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And in their minds, that's what's left.

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But it's not really clear

what that looks like.

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Do those people eat?

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Do they think clearly?

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Do they love?

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None of that to me is answered

consistently in polytheism or paganism.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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And then that's further muddied when you

look at the paganism of say, the Norse

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or some of the, ancient American tribes.

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The tribes in Central South America.

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So like the Mayans and Aztecs.

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Right.

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All that.

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Okay.

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I think to me, at least I don't

understand that there's a consistent

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answer to what happens after death.

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So from my viewpoint, I can't really

address that too much because at least

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in my understanding, there's not a

whole lot that's a consistent teaching.

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But when you come to Eastern

thought, well, the story is

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quite a bit different there.

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There is a very detailed and highly

developed system of intellectual thought

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that's very intellectually coherent.

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That means it all fits together

about the individual and death

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and the future as a whole.

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And it's also very different than what

we in the West normally think of it all.

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Sweet.

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Can you unpack that a little bit for us?

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Sure.

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So we'll go on to talk about what

the future holds both for us as

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individuals and the world as a

whole according to Eastern thought.

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And again, Eastern

thought is not monolithic.

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There are variations, but the

most important ideas of this

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are those who develop out of the

pantheistic monism of Hinduism,

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Captured very memorably and beautifully

in in Hermann Hesse's novel Siddhartha,

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which he wrote in the 1970s, he was

actually German, but he probably did

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a better job of translating Eastern

thought into Western audiences more

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than any other person I can think of.

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But anyway, Buddhism is going to

be very similar with one difference

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that we'll talk about, and that's

kind of the nature of the ultimate

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reality that we cycle back into.

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But that word cycle is

going to be the key.

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We in the West are accustomed,

almost from birth, of thinking of

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history as a linear progression.

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It is an arrow.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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So you've got the arrow of time.

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And in the East, the conception

of time is quite different.

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It's more of a circle or a

cycle, is the metaphor there.

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Within this, you also have

the cycle of human existence.

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So let me see if I can

explain this a little bit.

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In most Eastern philosophy, the human

being is caught in the cycle of samsara.

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Samsara is the cycle of death and rebirth,

death and rebirth, death and rebirth.

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This is also called reincarnation

or the transmigration of souls.

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In samsara, you die, but then you're

born as a different living thing.

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Now, you might not be a human.

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In fact, you probably won't be a human.

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You could be any living

thing, from what I understand.

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You could be a gnat, or you

could come back as a cow.

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You could come back as a human.

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And within that humanity, you would also

come back within a certain caste system.

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That part's more controversial

and not as universal.

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But the idea that your life here, that

you presently live is not your full

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existence is pretty much universal.

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So again, if you go back, we talked

a while ago, one of the previous

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episodes about this idea of Atman

and Atman is this living force.

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So it's not quite the same as a

soul because it's not conscious.

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It's not necessarily volitional.

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But it's this living

force, this living entity.

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Now you, Nathan, in your present state,

you are one manifestation that that will

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take on within the cycle of who you are.

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You lived before with a different

manifestation of that, either

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as a human or some other being.

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And the metaphor that's often used, even

in the sacred texts, is that the Atman

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We'll take off and put on these different

suits of clothing just like you do for

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a different day So that's the cycle of

samsara that you are born and then you

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die and then you are born and then you

die And then you are born and then you

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die Related to that is the idea of karma.

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So karma is the mechanism that

determines What state you are next

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born into and it works by necessity.

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So what you do in this life determines

What you are born into the next life.

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That's the basic idea of karma

It's not that bad things happen

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to you in this life if you do bad

things That's often misunderstood.

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So it's not instant karma the

like the YouTube videos.

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No, there's are hilarious.

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Yes, they are But no, that's

kind of a perversion of the idea.

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Okay.

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Yeah, this is super fascinating

because I Think of time as linear for

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sure and light at the end of life.

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There is a destination Or the naturalist

I think we'll get into will say, maybe

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there is no destination, but there's

still, it's this life and then something

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else versus, okay, this is cyclical and

happening again, and then it's also super

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interesting to me how, I don't know what

you would call it, but you could go to

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some guru or psychotherapist who could

help you Try to have memories from past

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lives that's always just been fascinating

I've just been been curious about all

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that stuff and don't know how it works

or anything Yeah, and I don't know that

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idea Talk about your past life is actually

an orthodox, idea or that it might

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be just some Western version of that.

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Yeah.

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But something we talked about at the

beginning, that's really fascinating

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is the future does affect the

way that you live your life now.

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And so if you think that, okay, in my

next life, I want to, come up as a higher

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cast or at least not move backwards to

some lesser living being like a bird or a.

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Um, then I want to now make decisions

to live well and to have good karma.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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That's a lot of it.

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And then also as you move up to a higher

state of being and you're a conscious

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human, then also you seek enlightenment.

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can you define that?

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And what's the goal there?

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Is it Brahman?

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Is that the right word that I

remember for a few weeks ago?

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Yeah.

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So let's talk about that.

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But let me back up here.

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Okay.

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So, for the individual, death

change is nothing essential

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about an individual's nature.

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So, when you die, Nathan, what's

essential to you is unchanged.

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You're just changing your clothes.

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The Atman, the part of you that

is eternal, doesn't change.

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It just takes a different form.

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It wears different clothes.

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So again, let's just make

sure we're clear on this.

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You, Nathan, you are the

manifestation right now of this Atman.

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When you die.

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Nothing essential about you changes,

just this outward form of Nathan Beasley,

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but you will be reincarnated as another

person or another type of being because

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the Atma within you is indestructible

and eternal, so it cannot die.

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So does it teach the

immortality of the soul?

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Well, yes and no, because again, the

Atma is not the same as the soul.

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It's not personal.

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It's not conscious So, in this

sense, only Atman is valuable.

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Gotcha.

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So the, so the goal then is enlightenment.

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Yeah.

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So ultimately the goal.

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is to move out of samsara, which is this

cycle that we've just been talking about.

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The mechanism of the cycle is karma.

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Samsara is the cycle itself and

the goal is to move beyond that.

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Now how you do that and what that

looks like varies a little bit between

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Hinduism and Buddhism, for example.

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I'm going to talk about that, but let

me read you one quote before we do to

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kind of illustrate How all this means

that history itself is not working as

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an arrow of time, but more as a cycle.

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I'm going to be quoting from the

novel Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse.

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And one of the central images

in this book is the river.

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And at the climax of the novel,

Siddhartha bends down and

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listens intently to the river.

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So here I'm going to quote

it for a few minutes.

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Siddhartha tried to listen better.

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The picture of his father, his own

picture, and the picture of his

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son all flowed into each other.

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Kabbalah's picture also

appeared and flowed on.

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And the picture of Gobinda and

the others emerged and passed on.

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They all became part of the river.

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It was the goal of all of them.

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Yearning, desiring, suffering,

and the river's voice was full

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of longing, full of smarting woe.

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Full of insatiable desire, and the

river flowed onward towards its goal.

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Siddhartha saw the river hasten,

made up of himself and his relatives

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and all the people he had ever seen.

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All the waves in the water hasten,

suffering, towards goals, many

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goals, to the waterfall, to the

sea, to the current, to the ocean.

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And all the goals were reached and

each one was succeeded by another.

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The water changed to vapor and

rose, became rain and came down

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again, became spring, brook, and

river, changed anew, flowed anew,

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but the yearning voice had altered.

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It still echoed sorrowfully, searchingly,

But other voices accompanied it.

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Voices of pleasure and sorrow.

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Good and evil voices.

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Laughing and lamenting voices.

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Hundreds of voices.

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Thousands of voices.

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And then he writes

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quote, And all the voices, all the goals,

all the yearnings, all the sorrows, all

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the pleasures, all the good and evil,

all of them together, was the world.

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The Great Song of a Thousand Voices

consisted of one word, Om, perfection.

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And it's at this point, Siddhartha

achieves an inner unity with

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the One, and the serenity of

knowledge passes over his face.

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So in this passage, and

throughout the book, the river

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becomes an image for the cosmos.

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When you look at it from the standpoint

of someone along the bank, The

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river flows, and when looked at in

entirety, from spring to brook to

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river to ocean to vapor to rain to

spring, the river does not flow.

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Time doesn't exist.

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It's an illusion produced by what's

sitting on the bank, rather than

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seeing the river from the heavens.

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So, time is cyclical.

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History is what is produced

by the flow of water.

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But it's an illusion.

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By the way, I'm quoting some of this

from James Sire, who's James Sire?

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He's an author who wrote

the universe next door.

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Okay.

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That's a philosophy.

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Yes.

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Is that a book specifically related

to Eastern thought or is it no

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over and over world views as well?

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Or yeah, it goes over world views.

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Okay.

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It's been.

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Influential my thinking.

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Okay.

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So if you read that book, you'll see

where I get some of the ideas that I have.

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Cool.

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Well, maybe we can link

that in the show notes too.

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Cool.

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yeah, what else, are you thinking

about for Eastern thought?

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Okay.

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So one final thing, how do

escape the cycle of samsara?

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What does that look like?

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And the answer from Hindu thought It's

going to be this type of a enlightenment

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where you realize that all is one, and

when you do this, then you realize that

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Oman, this light force within you that

takes on these various manifestations

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is really the same as Brahman, which

is the oneness of the universe.

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, we wouldn't call this God

because this is not a person

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with volition will or purpose.

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It's more this word that we would use

for the ultimate oneness of all things.

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Something that transcends all

the divisions and duality of this

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world that we experience with

our senses or seem to experience.

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So that's the monism?

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Yes.

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That's, okay.

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Yeah, you're a drop of water that's

dissolved in the ocean, is the idea.

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That you are united with

this ultimate oneness.

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So individuality kind of ceases to be.

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Yes it does.

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And that's a very important point.

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Now the variation on this is Buddhism.

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So Buddhism, also talks about the

transmigration of souls, the cycle of

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samsara, but at the end, what you want

to achieve is nothingness or the void.

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The term used, of course, is nirvana.

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So nirvana is different than the oneness.

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That's the distinction there?

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Yes.

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Okay.

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Because the oneness implies this

overall unity of all things, whereas

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nirvana really means the void.

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So it's, it's not a thing.

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It's not a oneness.

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It's beyond even the idea of oneness.

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It's absolute nothingness, the void.

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So it's like ceasing to exist?

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Yes.

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See, I, I always thought that that word

was like an equivalent to like heaven.

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I know.

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Most people do.

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Oh really?

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Okay.

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But it's not.

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In fact, it's almost the

opposite of heaven., is that

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an Indian word or something?

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I believe it's Sanskrit.

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Hinduism and Buddhism

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are both religions centered around the

idea of how to escape human suffering?

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So it makes sense that the goal of

that in some way is to escape the

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cycle that causes all this suffering.

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Okay.

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See, that makes sense.

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Cause I was like, how is nothingness

better than being in the cycle, but

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it's still alleviation of pain and

suffering and no more death and fear.

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And so that makes sense.

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But one is you're in nothingness.

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The other one is you just realize, it just

sounds like it's the opposite, actually.

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Oneness, total unity with

everything around you.

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Yeah, but you're not a

conscious individual anymore

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in the Hinduism conception.

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There's still the Brahman.

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But in the Buddhist conception,

Nirvana is the void.

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Technically it's not nothing, it's more

like The void from which all things

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sprang, and it's hard to get Western words

to really understand that, but that's

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the best way that I can put it, at least.

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So the practices, the religious practices,

like meditation or that sort of thing, are

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almost like reaching forward, trying to

participate in that now, kind of escaping

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samsara.

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Samsara.

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What's it called?

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Samsara.

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Samsara.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Sorry.

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Like trying to escape the samsara.

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Yeah, that's actually a good point.

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So Buddhists will say that the

Buddha two different kinds of nirvana.

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So there was a nirvana in which

he became fully enlightened.

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And he was able to live in this peace and

equanimity within himself because he fully

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embraced and understood all these ideas.

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So he wasn't disturbed then by

the sufferings and the variations

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and the illusions of this world.

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And then there is this ultimate

Nirvana, which means the death of

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the individual and the extinction

of individual human personality

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into the void or the nothingness.

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So he could only reach the

first one here in this life.

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Yes, anyone can, but that's the

ultimate that we can do before our

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death, gotcha, or our ultimate death.

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So can I just say that I think

that the desire to escape suffering

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is really a beautiful desire

and makes a whole lot of sense.

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It is very resonant of like,

yeah, you look around in this

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world, there is a lot of suffering.

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There's a lot of brokenness.

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And the solution of, Hey, you can, be

alleviated from that is, I think it's

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something that resonates my spirit.

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Right.

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Glad you mentioned that because

it highlights one of the key

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differences between East and West.

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Again, painting very broad

strokes, but this isn't my own.

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This is what people smarter than me

have observed is that in the West are.

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Our focus is on making life more

comfortable by satiating our desires.

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We have these desires, so we're

going to try to do all that we can to

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satiate these desires, to fulfill them.

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Whereas in the East,

it's almost the opposite.

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The goal is to rid

yourself of your desires.

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And I think we can see the

attractiveness of that, right?

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As Westerners, we see how the goal

to satiate all of our desires.

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Leads to materialism and leads

to, manipulation and leads to

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abusing others for our own goal.

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So there is a lot to be said for that idea

that part of what we need to do instead of

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seeking to fulfill all these desires that

we have for, for power and wealth and toys

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and status is to become the kind of person

who doesn't even desire those things.

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it's kind of like the idea there are

two ways to be wealthy one is to have

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more and more money and the other

Is to have less and less desires and

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therefore you have a contentment there.

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That's really interesting

So what's your take?

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Like what's your

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what's your reflection on the Eastern

perspective in the future I think you

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can't be unimpressed by some of the

ideas and the intellectual coherence

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of Buddhism, but especially Hinduism.

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it was C.

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S.

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Lewis himself who said, really, there are

two religions in this world, Christianity

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and Hinduism, and he was overstating

for effect, but he was recognizing

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that Hinduism presents A compelling

alternative to what we normally think

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of, and it has certain ideas that

are very beautiful and attractive.

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We shouldn't be surprised because it would

not have lasted this long and it would

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not influence so many people without that.

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But to my mind, it is a beautiful human

way of dealing with the problem of human

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suffering, but apart from a revelation

from God himself, because there is

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no personal God in that viewpoint.

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So I think it's impressive, but I

think it's based upon the premise

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that there is not a personal God

who created the universe And it

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was active in intervening with it.

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There is not that sense of hope There

is not that sense of grace that this

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guy can come and intervene and do

something different than necessity Even

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karma operates by absolute necessity.

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There's no sense of grace here There's

no sense of mercy because there's no

471

one to bring those things It is an

oppressive religion But it is a religion

472

without God, therefore, to me, it's the

best you can do to alleviate and give

473

purpose, in a sense, to human suffering.

474

That's my take for what it's worth.

475

And what do you think about the

idea of trying to limit desire?

476

I think there's a lot for that.

477

I mean, isn't that a

biblical idea to some degree?

478

I think so.

479

I mean, the Bible talks about

certain limitations, contentment,

480

and I think about hunger,

fasting is a Christian practice.

481

Jewish practice as well.

482

Sure.

483

Islamic practice as well.

484

So, yeah.

485

Um, so there are certainly practices

that flow from a, an innate value of

486

that to have our desires under control,

at least completely, done away with.

487

I don't know, but at least under control.

488

So self control is a big

Christian theme as well.

489

Yeah.

490

I think there is a whole theme within

this in the Bible, especially in the New

491

Testament that is not well developed in

most churches or most Christian teaching.

492

This idea of minimizing our desires.

493

Jesus himself talked about, it

the body more than clothes

494

isn't there more than food, you know?

495

And Paul, the one who is a

Christian, writ large, kind of

496

the example of a Christ follower.

497

You know, he came to the point

where he said, having food and

498

clothing, we'll be content with that.

499

And that is an impressive spiritual

achievement, which I think a lot of

500

people are not striving for at all.

501

He did not view those things as so

important or so central to what he had

502

to have, the desires of this world,

because he had bigger fish to fry.

503

He had a bigger goal that he

viewed as much more valuable.

504

It's interesting to see at least

a little bit of overlap here.

505

Yes, which is, which is,

which is really fascinating.

506

And I think really interesting because,

you know, nowadays there's a lot

507

more just because of technology and

globalization, that sort of thing.

508

There's a lot more,

interreligious dialogue.

509

And I think it's interesting that

there's a, a little bit of an overlap

510

of, about how, desires can get out

of control and that kind of thing.

511

So we can learn from our Hindu

friends and Buddhist friends.

512

All right.

513

Well, shall we move on now to

the naturalist perspective?

514

Let's do it.

515

Of the future.

516

Cool.

517

So, big category, lots of

subcategories here, but what's the

518

philosophical stream of the naturalist?

519

If you put it in one word,

it would be extinction.

520

So again, you as an individual person,

your purposes, your plans, your

521

ideas, does not survive your death.

522

The 70, 80, 90 years that you live in this

human body are everything that you are.

523

And when you die, you cease to exist and

all your thoughts and values and ideas

524

and choices cease to exist as well.

525

What about legacy?

526

So, let's expand that a little bit.

527

I would say, everything you do, everything

you value, everything you love, all

528

that you are, all the choices you make,

cease to exist, comma, except in the

529

influence that it has upon other people.

530

But, they will also cease to exist.

531

Okay.

532

So most of them are going to be just

within a generation or two of you.

533

But even humanity itself

is going to die because the

534

universe has an expiration date.

535

So you don't escape that extinction

just by prolonging it a little bit.

536

It's watered down to the next

generation a thousand fold.

537

And then the next generation after

that, a thousand fold indeed.

538

But even if it weren't, there is

a expiration date on all humanity.

539

let me explain what, I mean by that.

540

If this universe is all that exists, then

541

we have a problem ahead of us.

542

If the only mechanism for what happens

to us are natural causes alone, without

543

an intervention from someone, a being

like God, who can change things within

544

this, world or this cosmos of necessity

and cause and effect, if there is

545

nothing outside of that, and we're

operating only on the laws of physics

546

and chemistry, Then what happens is

you realize that humanity itself will

547

die because the universe will die.

548

Now, that will happen in one of

two ways, possibly three ways.

549

One is what's called the Big Crunch.

550

And the Big Crunch is the idea that

eventually the gravitational force will

551

overcome the force of the expansion

of the universe, and everything

552

will collapse back in upon itself.

553

So it's a big bang reversed.

554

Everything crunches back in,

infinitely small, just as it began,

555

infinitely small, and expanded out.

556

So, that's one.

557

. If, on the other hand, the forces of

acceleration are stronger than the

558

forces of gravity in the future, You

can't maintain this equilibrium state

559

forever, from what I understand,

560

then you would have what we, what

you would call the Big Freeze, where

561

the universe kind of rips apart

and the individual molecules and

562

pieces of matter become separated

And therefore, no life can occur.

563

You have scattered bits of

matter everywhere, but nothing

564

that congeals enough to create a

living thing, let alone a planet.

565

And then there are some people who

believe that you'll have a big crunch

566

some billion years down the future,

and then maybe it will start up again.

567

But obviously there's

no proof for that one.

568

So that's more, that would

be kind of cyclical too.

569

In a sense, but, Who knows

what that would ever look like.

570

You still gotta have faith

to believe that, though.

571

Well, you would.

572

And I think some people who choose to

believe that do so not because they have

573

any scientific proof, but because the

alternative of this final extinction of

574

everything, just seems really harsh.

575

Yeah.

576

So, Those are the options from a

naturalistic viewpoint where the only

577

thing that can affect our future is the

laws of physics and our present state

578

ultimately, the universe will

die just like you will die.

579

There is a quote here from Bertrand

Russell that I read a couple of weeks

580

ago, but it's worth revisiting here

because this is where you come to with

581

a naturalistic perspective and who's he?

582

He was one of the most influential, if not

the most influential atheist philosophers

583

of the previous century, especially in

the first half of of the 20th century.

584

this is what he writes

in A Free Man's Worship.

585

He says, quote, that man is the product of

causes which had no provision of the end.

586

They were achieving, and that his

origin, his growth, his hopes, and

587

his fears, his loves, and his beliefs

are but the outcome of accident, of

588

accidental collocations of atoms.

589

And that no fire, no heroism, no intensity

of thought and feeling can preserve

590

an individual life beyond the grave.

591

And that all the labors of the ages,

all the devotion, all the inspiration,

592

all the noonday brightness of human

genius, are destined to extinction and

593

the vast death of the solar system,

and that the whole temple of man's

594

achievement must inevitably be buried

beneath the debris of a universe in ruins.

595

All these things, if not quite beyond

dispute, are yet so nearly certain,

596

I'm inserting here on his viewpoint,

that no philosophy which rejects them

597

can hope to stand, only within the

scaffolding of these truths, only on the

598

firm foundation of unyielding despair.

599

can the souls habitations

henceforth be safely built?

600

So he's one who's recognizing that if

you're a naturalist, this is what you

601

have to somehow try to build meaning on.

602

So that's the future and that's connected

to the metaphysics that there is no

603

being outside of the material or natural

world that is interacting with the world.

604

And so.

605

Life is just cause and effect, and

so it doesn't matter your feelings,

606

or your labor, or your intensity, or

your inspiration, or your devotion,

607

or anything like that, at the end

of the day, it's just gonna all die.

608

Yes, and again, on this viewpoint,

there is no purpose for anything.

609

There is no end goal that all things

are working towards, because those

610

imply a purpose for someone who

created this universe with a goal.

611

And they reject that idea.

612

Well, at least any objective purpose.

613

Right.

614

You can have a subjective, individual

purpose, but that's simply another

615

way of glorifying just simply your own

desires for what you want your life to

616

be or what choices you want to make.

617

So you're saying, you know, people,

people can still have the purpose.

618

Okay, my purpose is to be an author

that adds value to other people's lives.

619

Or my purpose is to make a better life

for my kids and grandkids than for myself.

620

Or those sorts of things

can be individual purposes.

621

But They aren't tied up into some

objective purpose that's given by a

622

transcendent being, which gives their

life more meaning beyond just the

623

grave, either their own personal grave

or the grave of the, the universe.

624

That's right.

625

And I would also say, anytime you

start talking about things, you

626

were talking about making a better

world, leaving a better life for my

627

kids, you're using a word better.

628

Which implies that there's some end state

that you are progressing toward or you

629

and you're using a word better that by

naturalistic presuppositions you have

630

trouble giving a logical basis for one

how one thing is better than another

631

other than simply it brings more Pleasure.

632

So even even a really big purpose of

like being an environmentalist who

633

wants to save the planet and plant

trees and Prevent the Polar ice caps

634

from melting and all that stuff.

635

It has a limitation or even, the the life

purpose of Absolving poverty and hunger

636

or or even these big like worldwide things

do have expiration dates Yeah, let's

637

talk about the environmental part that

you just mentioned I believe Christians

638

should be the greatest environmentalist

in the world Because we recognize that

639

this world It is a, as a gift of God in

some, and in some ways, not every way,

640

expresses the beauty and the power of God.

641

It's his voice within

this world in a sense.

642

It is the painting that he has given to

us that expresses the glory and the power

643

and the mind of the creator, the painter.

644

But if you reject that, that there

is no God, then you have the question

645

of why should I value the natural

world as opposed to not valuing it?

646

Why should I?

647

Choose environmentalism as a goal.

648

And that's a difficult question to answer.

649

I think the best you can come up with is,

well, because it's this big, beautiful

650

system that's much greater than, than

my life or even mankind as a whole.

651

Which is true, but you're using words of

beautiful and valuable that you may have a

652

hard time giving an ontological basis for.

653

But also as you mentioned,

well, at some point the world's

654

going to be destroyed anyway.

655

So what you're doing is you're

making it more of a primitive state,

656

in one sense of a more of a, what

we would call a natural state.

657

But ultimately, all those efforts are

going to only last for a little while.

658

Like you said, you can, you can

prolong it, but the, the certain

659

death, what does he call it?

660

The, the vast death of the solar system.

661

Yeah, The vast death of this solar

system is an inevitable outcome.

662

Yes.

663

That's, in one sense, I can feel

like, okay, I can still, my life can

664

still have purpose as I attach myself

to things that are greater than I am

665

and prolong the world's existence.

666

But in another, sense, what he's saying

here is deeply troubling to me because

667

he's saying, Hey, at the end of the

day, it doesn't matter how much energy.

668

It doesn't matter how much devotion

or inspiration or heroism, thoughts

669

or feelings, hopes and dreams,

fears, loves and beliefs, all that

670

stuff at the end of the day, doesn't

outlive me, as far as I perceive it.

671

Like you said, it can, live

in the memories and the, that

672

sort of thing of other people.

673

Right, but if you're dead,

that won't affect you.

674

Doesn't, doesn't, doesn't matter to me.

675

No, you won't know it one way or another.

676

So It seems to me like altruism

would be a good ethic of naturalist,

677

but like you said, there would

be, it would be hard to come by an

678

ontological grounding to that belief.

679

Yes, I think it is.

680

so one of the things

you're talking about is

681

creating a subjective purpose for

your life, in view of the fact

682

that we Don't, under naturalism's

premises, have an objective purpose

683

for our life, is really at the heart

of what's called existentialism.

684

And that's an important enough

idea that we'll do a podcast

685

or two, just on that topic.

686

Okay.

687

Let me give you one final analogy

of someone who understood and

688

was wrestling with this idea.

689

And that is the playwright

and author Samuel Beckett.

690

He's most famous for writing Waiting

for Godot, which is this play

691

which illustrates the absurdity of.

692

Trying to live in this world without

a God and we're waiting for him and he

693

never shows up and all that that means.

694

But I think probably the idea of the

hopelessness and purposelessness and

695

meaninglessness of human life if all we

are is this brief episode of consciousness

696

between two oblivions is really captured

best in his very short play, Breath.

697

That's how long it is.

698

Oh, You won't guess.

699

It's 35 seconds.

700

Oh, that's going to, I was going to

give him minutes, but Imagine this.

701

Imagine paying to see that play.

702

Imagine that.

703

Yeah.

704

You're paying how much

money did you see this?

705

And you go in and when you go in, the

theater is completely dark and there's a

706

light that begins to Shine on the stage

and all you see is a pile of garbage

707

and the light brightens a little bit,

a little bit, but never fully, and then

708

recedes to dimness and complete dark.

709

Oh, there are no words.

710

There's only a recorded cry opening

the play and then an inhaled breath,

711

then an exhaled breath and an identical

recorded cry closing the play.

712

And that's it.

713

That would be like, you're like

unsettling, so unsettling, almost like

714

creepy, but like, ah, just, I don't know.

715

Yeah.

716

And he was trying to give an illustration

of the meaninglessness of life.

717

If we have no purpose and all

we are, as I said before, is a

718

brief, unplanned, unpurposeful

consciousness between two oblivions.

719

That's what you have.

720

They have a play like breath.

721

Wow.

722

So, on that note, let's, uh,

let's go on briefly to talk about

723

theism and its view of the future.

724

Now, again, the view of the

future and the view of purpose

725

are attached to the metaphysics.

726

all these things are just the

natural outworking, the logical

727

outworkings of the metaphysics.

728

If there is no God with naturalism, then

there is no purpose, there's no place

729

it's going to, there's no place it's

headed because all those things apply.

730

A purpose for, uh, someone with will

who created all things, you don't have

731

that, it's rolled out by definition.

732

But in theism, that's

exactly what you have.

733

So history has an end goal and a purpose,

the purpose being to reach that end goal.

734

And it's overseen by the one who brought

it all into existence towards that goal.

735

There's this interplay of God's

work and human freedom, but there

736

is this overall value and goal.

737

That our choices can either partner with

and so choose to value those same things,

738

or we could disregard or even rebel

against as far as we understand that.

739

That's what gives human choices,

purpose and meaning in this life.

740

I wonder if that's also a reason why

people innately have senses of purpose.

741

I think so.

742

I mean, it makes sense, doesn't it?

743

Out of the theistic viewpoint,

we are created in God's

744

likeness to be God's image.

745

He has a purpose.

746

He has rationality.

747

So it makes sense, it's

logically consistent with

748

that, that we also have those.

749

And so I wonder if , the purposes

we would deem as good or better than

750

other purposes are somehow maybe

shadows of the objective purpose.

751

I think so.

752

not a deductive, but a good inductive

argument for God's existence can

753

be made from this idea that we

have purpose and we have values

754

and we have desires of that kind.

755

I don't think that's a foolproof

proof of God in a technical sense,

756

but I think it's a good pointer.

757

I think that that's interesting

as you listeners are listening,

758

if you sense that innate.

759

Sense of purpose, where

does that come from?

760

Right.

761

Because that the naturalist

perspective doesn't really

762

give a good answer for that.

763

That's grounded in their metaphysics.

764

I don't think so.

765

Doesn't give a good answer for that.

766

That's grounded in their metaphysic.

767

Yeah, I would agree.

768

I think that's definitely a soft

spot for our naturalist friends.

769

Yeah.

770

So for the individual, let's talk

about this here a little bit.

771

Actually, let's talk

about the broad scale.

772

What is God's purpose?

773

Oh yeah.

774

I was going to ask that.

775

Let's go.

776

Okay.

777

So let's get some content to that.

778

Yeah.

779

All right.

780

So if you are a Christian, and

I'm just going to speak from that

781

perspective because that's the.

782

Theistic family that I am in, and so

that's the one I'm most familiar with.

783

We believe that God has a purpose

for all that he does, including the

784

creation of humanity and overseeing

all that humanity affects for all

785

that's in this world towards that goal.

786

Now we have to paint that in broad

pictures because God doesn't give us a

787

clear conception of things in the future.

788

That there are a number

of reasons for that.

789

Number one, um, probably

the most important.

790

We probably are not yet in a place

to understand or maybe appreciate

791

what that would look like.

792

So try explaining the joys of

sex to a four year old, you know,

793

they're just not gonna get it.

794

Mm hmm So in the same way either our minds

or desires are not shaped yet So that it

795

would be that valuable for God to create

a detailed picture of that end goal But

796

we have it in broad strokes and basically

what that is is this human divine

797

partnership In which God and his human

partners within this world, this creation,

798

work to make this all that it should be.

799

And I'm taking that from the whole of

scripture, but especially Genesis 1.

800

What do you see?

801

You see that the men and women,

male and female together, he says,

802

are created in God's likeness to

be God's image within this world.

803

If you look in the rest of the

Old Testament, you'll see that

804

that word that's translated image

there in Genesis 1 is the standard

805

word you would use for an idol.

806

So Oh, that's interesting.

807

Yeah, it is.

808

Isn't it?

809

Don't get freaked out about that.

810

We're not an idol of

God, but we are an image.

811

Now think about that though.

812

So if you're going over to one of these

ancient cultures and you see an idol of

813

Baal, or you see an idol of Ashtoreth

or Diana, what are you seeing there?

814

You are seeing A physical

representation of a non physical person.

815

And that's what we are.

816

And the reason that God is so opposed to

idolatry in the Bible is for two reasons.

817

Number one, no image of a calf or a bull

or anything else that you're going to

818

create could ever begin to do justice.

819

to who God is.

820

It might symbolize one aspect of God,

but at the expense of all the others.

821

But secondly, God, by His wisdom, has

already created an image within this

822

world that He desires to represent Him,

what He is like, and that's the human.

823

Not in our bodies.

824

God doesn't have a body.

825

But in the ways that we

interact with this world.

826

we have abstract intellectual thought.

827

We have purpose, we have imagination,

the ability to communicate those

828

abstract thoughts and work together,

we have values, we have things that

829

the rest of the species of this world

do not have, because we're designed

830

to function in a different way.

831

We are designed to not only interact

with the reality that we see, like

832

an animal does, but we are designed

to think of a way this world could

833

be different than it is now, to

conceptualize a preferable future.

834

One that is more full of beauty, and

justice, and rightness, and harmony, and

835

love, and then work together towards that.

836

All those gifts of language, and

intellectual thought, abstract

837

reasoning, and imagination, ability

to communicate fully these things to

838

each other, that's in line with that.

839

So to me, that's the broad picture.

840

And you see it again in Revelation 21.

841

What does it say?

842

Does it say that we go off

to someplace called heaven?

843

Disembodied state in the sky.

844

No, no, it's about the

Eden being fulfilled.

845

Exactly.

846

First you have in Revelation 21 The it

says now the kingdom of heaven comes

847

to this earth Now heaven comes to earth

in the sense that God's presence and

848

power and will come to this earth And

then Genesis or Revelation 22, you

849

have the symbolized in this beautiful

picture of Eden being restored.

850

So there is that future perfect

state where God has dwelt with man's

851

sin and man's guilt and all the

things that arose because of that.

852

So that that ultimate

state can be fulfilled.

853

That is where history is headed.

854

And that's where our individual

lives have a meaning and a purpose

855

as we accept and work towards that.

856

for your attention.

857

so creation care and justice and

reconciliation and love of neighbor

858

and feeding the hungry and all of that

are pointing to that future restored

859

state where there will be no more pain

and there will be no more suffering and

860

there will be equity and there will be

peace and there will be all those things.

861

Is that what you're saying?

862

Exactly.

863

When we do any of those things

for the right reason, we are, in a

864

sense, bringing heaven into earth, as

Jesus prayed, Let your kingdom come.

865

Let your will in heaven, as it's

already being done, now being

866

done on this earth, especially

through what I'm doing this day.

867

That's what we mean.

868

Wow.

869

And so another, another clarification.

870

So you, you kind of

made an offhand comment.

871

So heaven isn't a place that you go to?

872

No.

873

Heaven is here.

874

It will be.

875

The kingdom of God will

be upon this earth.

876

It says in Revelation they

will reign upon the earth.

877

Reign in the sense of be partners with

God over his and within his new creation.

878

Yeah.

879

I think that it'll be worth

exploring in a future episode, the

880

biblical perspective of heaven.

881

Cause that feels a little bit different

than, hey, you die and you go up and

882

the, you know, popular imagery of

going up to the clouds or having a

883

harp, which sounds horribly boring.

884

It does.

885

But I think you get a different

perspective in the Bible, especially

886

just thinking about like, okay, is

there going to, what are we going to do?

887

Yeah.

888

Well, in, in Revelation, there's

a garden to be cultivated and

889

there's a tree that produces fruit

in every season and every month.

890

And so.

891

Who's going to be harvesting that?

892

Are we going to be eating it?

893

Yeah, I just had a conversation

with somebody yesterday.

894

Oh, you think we're going

to eat food in heaven?

895

Well, yeah.

896

Think there'll be toilets in heaven?

897

I don't know, but And that's why

I'm saying that we probably can't

898

conceptualize what exactly that looks

like, so God's going to use a lot of

899

symbolism from this world to describe

the beauty and glory, but we shouldn't

900

take those symbols too literally.

901

With signs and symbols, you

look at them But then you look

902

beyond them, because that's what

they're pointing towards, right?

903

So, coming back to the main thing

here then, our human sin, according

904

to this worldview, is what is

keeping that from happening.

905

That we have within us, universally as

humans, we have within us a wrongness

906

that doesn't want that, that seeks its

own desires at the expense of that kind

907

of thing, especially towards other people.

908

So, we have this wrongness within us,

this sin problem, this guilt problem.

909

And the teaching of the scripture is

that God Himself has intervened, that

910

there is no karma here, that there is

a grace that God is offering through

911

Jesus Christ, the one that He has

sent within this world, this physical

912

creation, this sequence of time and event.

913

He has actually walked into this with us.

914

He has stepped into the boat

of our humanity in order to

915

right the ship, as it were.

916

And that he offers a free gift,

then, of grace to anyone who will

917

choose to partner with him and

believe in him and what he has done.

918

Those who do that, he says, will

face a resurrection towards life.

919

Yes, we will die, but we will

die as a seed that's planted

920

in the ground and not a stone.

921

A seed that then gives life

to something beyond itself.

922

We don't know what that looks like

anymore than a caterpillar could

923

understand what his future life

as a butterfly would look like.

924

Or an acorn, if an acorn had

thoughts, could understand what

925

his life as an oak would be like.

926

But that's the metaphor Paul uses in

1 Corinthians 15, a seed planted that

927

grows into something different, but it

grows out of what was planted and died.

928

So that's an individual way of thinking

that we now have the gift that God has

929

offered to us, that this life doesn't

have to be a meaningless episode of

930

consciousness between two oblivions.

931

But it can be a seed that's planted

and grows into something we can't see,

932

but we trust will be very glorious.

933

that makes the purpose a little bit

difficult here because we have a

934

purpose, but it's not fully understood

what it's moving toward, but we have an

935

impression of what that's moving toward.

936

So it just makes it a little tricky.

937

Well it does.

938

I think best way to sum this

up, that our purpose right now.

939

is to know and embrace what

God is doing through Jesus.

940

And then secondly, to seek how to work

that out in the person that I am, to

941

let God's gracious activity continue

in how I interact with the people

942

around me and the world around me.

943

Yeah, and so, just like physical idols,

when you see that, you think of the God

944

that that is supposed to be representing.

945

As we become the people that God has

created us to be, when people see us,

946

not because of our physical nature,

but because of our character, and our

947

spirit, and our joy, and our peace,

and our love, and our patience, and our

948

kindness, and those sorts of things,

then they will see and glorify God.

949

Exactly.

950

And we can even now partner with

God not only in the type of person

951

we are, but what we do, we can

actually work towards that kingdom.

952

So, in some ways, You know, we talked

about Buddha and how he had this initial

953

nirvana, where he was enlightened as

a human, but ultimately, the ultimate

954

nirvana occurred after his death.

955

That's not a bad analogy, obviously

there's some difference, but we have

956

the ability to live within the purposes

of God, within this life, imperfectly,

957

but really, but that will not be full.

958

Until after our death and the day

of resurrection when God renews all

959

things, the day of his new creation.

960

So, we can participate in that,

we can symbolize, that in what we

961

are and what we do, as we await

for the fullness of that to come.

962

Wow, well that's beautiful.

963

It's good.

964

I wish I could do it justice.

965

I really do.

966

Yeah, well, like you said, we,

we can't understand fully what

967

that looks like, but we can, Talk

about it in sign and symbolism.

968

So, and I would rather work through what

it means to live out this purpose and try

969

to figure that out and how to do that.

970

I'd rather have that problem a

hundred times over than the problem

971

of I'm here for no purpose at all.

972

Yeah.

973

Yeah.

974

That's a, that's a, that's a tough one.

975

And I think for me the

question boils down to is.

976

Am I content with just a subjective

purpose if the, philosophical grounds for

977

this are I'm just the flash of a light

between two oblivions, you know, because

978

we talked about, you can still have a

subjective purpose, but is that something

979

that I'm willing to live with and be

content with as I think through the, the

980

cohesiveness of the worldview as a whole?

981

Right.

982

And why is your subjective

purpose any more valuable than

983

someone else's subjective purpose?

984

Even if they choose something

that would seem to us important.

985

Mm hmm.

986

That's again the soft spot of naturalism.

987

Gotcha.

988

Well, thank you so much Yeah, like I

said, I wish I could do this justice.

989

There's so much more here,

especially this last part, but

990

this is the beautiful thing

about the podcast is the format

991

allows for some good dialogue.

992

And then, uh, it's nice to, as we're,

as we're talking, have ideas for

993

future episodes and that kind of thing.

994

So be on the lookout for episode on

heaven and hell or, you know, that kind

995

of thing that would be more specific

to a Christian perspective, but sure.

996

It'd be good.

997

All right, cool.

998

Thanks.