Shownotes
Autistic advocate and academic Lulu Larcenciel sits down with host Jessa McLean to challenge misconceptions surrounding autism, discuss the need for massive shift in how we accommodate for neurodivergent community members, and take a critical look at so-called progressive policy that is impacting disabled people.
Lulu put together an amazing resource tool here:
Transcripts
Greetings, rabble rousers.
Speaker:My name is Jessa McLean and welcome
Speaker:to Blueprints for Disruption,
Speaker:a weekly discussion dedicated to
Speaker:amplifying activism across Turtle
Speaker:Island.
Speaker:Together, we will examine tactics,
Speaker:explore motivations, and celebrate
Speaker:successes in disrupting the status
Speaker:quo.
Speaker:This podcast is a proud part of
Speaker:new left media.
Speaker:We've labeled this episode Autistic
Speaker:Resistance the Foundations.
Speaker:It's an in-depth discussion with
Speaker:Lulu La Conceal, an autistic
Speaker:and disabled advocate, an
Speaker:academic that really doesn't sum
Speaker:up all the things that Lulu does.
Speaker:You're going to hear some sorely
Speaker:needed myth busting.
Speaker:It's going to be a critical look at
Speaker:so-called progressive policies that
Speaker:are negatively impacting disabled
Speaker:people.
Speaker:Lulu is going to help us all get out
Speaker:of the past in terms of what we
Speaker:think we know.
Speaker:Autistic and neurodivergent people
Speaker:need to thrive.
Speaker:It really is incredible what we can
Speaker:learn if we just listen.
Speaker:Welcome to Blueprints of Disruption.
Speaker:Lulu, I am so happy
Speaker:to have you on the show.
Speaker:You've been a wealth of knowledge
Speaker:for me for
Speaker:a few years now, and so I'm excited
Speaker:to share your voice with other
Speaker:people.
Speaker:Can you go ahead and please
Speaker:introduce yourself to everybody?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:So my name is
Speaker:Lulu Larcenciel.
Speaker:I am she her.
Speaker:I am an autistic
Speaker:and disabled
Speaker:advocate, activist
Speaker:and academic
Speaker:in currently
Speaker:living in St Catherine's at Brock
Speaker:University, studying
Speaker:young autistic people's wellbeing.
Speaker:And I have
Speaker:been a
Speaker:sort of political and social justice
Speaker:volunteer and
Speaker:advocate and member
Speaker:for quite some time.
Speaker:Also being queer, I also
Speaker:have a lot of sort
Speaker:of strange and exciting
Speaker:experiences from queer advocacy,
Speaker:although most of those are not not
Speaker:very novel and have been on many
Speaker:podcasts before.
Speaker:So probably I'll focus more on the
Speaker:disability angle, which
Speaker:I feel like really hasn't been
Speaker:represented that well in the past.
Speaker:Thank you, Lulu. I mean, that's
Speaker:definitely been my experience
Speaker:organizing on the left.
Speaker:I've never seen a group
Speaker:as a so-called equity seeking
Speaker:group marginalized more
Speaker:than the disabled community.
Speaker:It's it's
Speaker:shocking to see on the left.
Speaker:I would say.
Speaker:Yeah, it's not so much of
Speaker:like a comparative thing either.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And it's I mean, I think,
Speaker:you know, being queer,
Speaker:being a woman, all of the groups
Speaker:that I am a part of have been
Speaker:horribly,
Speaker:you know, prejudiced and
Speaker:up against and and oppressed.
Speaker:But I think it's
Speaker:it's it's a kind of hypocrisy
Speaker:where.
Speaker:The same behavior
Speaker:or similar behavior
Speaker:on the part of politicians
Speaker:towards disabled people
Speaker:that they absolutely
Speaker:revile in other politicians.
Speaker:When those politicians do that
Speaker:to women or whatever
Speaker:other group.
Speaker:And I do think that
Speaker:that is quite an interesting
Speaker:phenomenon.
Speaker:But I I'm not
Speaker:I'm not big on the comparisons
Speaker:because then you can sometimes get
Speaker:into sort of conflating
Speaker:different kinds of problems, you
Speaker:know, black autistic people
Speaker:face.
Speaker:Mountains.
Speaker:Exponentially more violence
Speaker:than white autistic people,
Speaker:for example.
Speaker:And even within our party,
Speaker:you know, within various
Speaker:political structures, within
Speaker:academic institutions,
Speaker:even within,
Speaker:you know, most aspects of
Speaker:society.
Speaker:And it
Speaker:again and I'm sure
Speaker:you talk about intersectionality
Speaker:and, you know, every interview
Speaker:you have, I'm sure.
Speaker:And that's important because.
Speaker:Yeah, it is it is 100%
Speaker:true that disabled people are
Speaker:marginalized and pushed
Speaker:aside in left
Speaker:circles in a way that is just
Speaker:completely absurd.
Speaker:And it's it's contradictory to
Speaker:everything that those those left
Speaker:circles
Speaker:say that they're standing for and
Speaker:say that they're
Speaker:fighting for.
Speaker:And then to turn around and and
Speaker:sort of do the opposite to the
Speaker:disabled folks in their midst.
Speaker:It's it is startling how common
Speaker:it is.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I understand you're kind of checking
Speaker:me there on the comparison.
Speaker:I do appreciate that, because you're
Speaker:100% right.
Speaker:It's just yeah, it's just I expect
Speaker:better, you know, when you see,
Speaker:you know, abled people chairing
Speaker:the disabled committee,
Speaker:you wouldn't see that otherwise.
Speaker:So, yeah,
Speaker:it is very interesting.
Speaker:I can't imagine an organization
Speaker:which is committed to social
Speaker:justice and anti oppression,
Speaker:you know, hiring a man
Speaker:to be the
Speaker:women's coordinator.
Speaker:But you will find someone who's not
Speaker:disabled as an accessibility
Speaker:coordinator.
Speaker:And I don't understand how that
Speaker:happens.
Speaker:I don't understand how that's not an
Speaker:actual expert on
Speaker:disability, an actual disabled
Speaker:person being put in that role, but
Speaker:just a non-disabled
Speaker:person who's getting that tacked on
Speaker:to their other job
Speaker:as though it's just, you know, some
Speaker:other task, as though it's not a
Speaker:critical tool
Speaker:to ensure that,
Speaker:you know, a fifth of
Speaker:the population has access to your
Speaker:organization.
Speaker:Yeah, you frame it as like a
Speaker:dismissal of its importance.
Speaker:It's true. I thought of
Speaker:the paternalism that goes into
Speaker:that thinking that,
Speaker:you know, if even if they thought it
Speaker:was critical, it could not be left
Speaker:to disabled folks to do.
Speaker:Very interesting conversations that
Speaker:go on about, you
Speaker:know, whether whether disabled
Speaker:people are capable.
Speaker:And this is something
Speaker:this is something which is used
Speaker:as an excuse across systems.
Speaker:Right. This is an excuse that's used
Speaker:to deny people
Speaker:accommodations.
Speaker:If you already seem like you're
Speaker:capable of doing something, even if
Speaker:you're disabled and you're saying,
Speaker:hey, I need this accommodation,
Speaker:you know, it's it's used to
Speaker:to kind of mock people.
Speaker:It's used to to kind of try and
Speaker:drag someone down when they ask for
Speaker:something and say, oh, well, if you
Speaker:can't do this without it
Speaker:and really try to make you feel bad
Speaker:about it and
Speaker:it's unfortunately,
Speaker:yeah, it really does lead people to
Speaker:these bizarre
Speaker:and incredibly cruel opinions
Speaker:and suggestions that disabled
Speaker:folks aren't capable of
Speaker:moderating our own spaces
Speaker:and deciding
Speaker:what accessibility is necessary
Speaker:that has to go through non-disabled
Speaker:gatekeepers in every
Speaker:organization I've ever been part of,
Speaker:which is horrifying.
Speaker:It's just disturbing.
Speaker:You you listed
Speaker:a bunch of A's when you introduced
Speaker:yourself. You're an academic, you're
Speaker:an advocate, you're an activist,
Speaker:but you're autistic.
Speaker:If you don't mind, I would like to
Speaker:focus on that because
Speaker:and the comment that you made
Speaker:earlier about capacity
Speaker:and misconceptions.
Speaker:So you seemingly, you know, you
Speaker:listed a whole bunch of things that
Speaker:you do. I know you left off a
Speaker:lot of stuff because we're going to
Speaker:have to talk about the end and end
Speaker:up later.
Speaker:And so you do
Speaker:a lot you're breaking
Speaker:misconceptions about people with
Speaker:autism, right?
Speaker:There are.
Speaker:Autistic people.
Speaker:Autistic people think
Speaker:what what other misconceptions
Speaker:are people holding, especially
Speaker:on the left, you know,
Speaker:comments that, you know, we'll be
Speaker:listening about autistic
Speaker:people.
Speaker:And particularly
Speaker:their ability to advocate.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, so
Speaker:this is an interesting and
Speaker:especially that last sort of part of
Speaker:the question about advocating
Speaker:because, yeah, I'm artistic,
Speaker:I'm a
Speaker:queer.
Speaker:Artistic who was
Speaker:like, who? And I'm closest this
Speaker:woman.
Speaker:And among
Speaker:autistic people,
Speaker:women are.
Speaker:Horrifically underdiagnosed.
Speaker:And this has led to one
Speaker:huge conception and
Speaker:misconception, which is
Speaker:a lot of people still believe.
Speaker:Yeah. No, this is also true on the
Speaker:left. I was just checking in my
Speaker:brain.
Speaker:Yeah. A lot of people believe that
Speaker:autism is a boy's
Speaker:thing.
Speaker:This is a stereotype
Speaker:which has been true for quite some
Speaker:time.
Speaker:Across cultures,
Speaker:they have this stereotype across
Speaker:and this is partially due to
Speaker:some really flawed research that
Speaker:came out quite early on,
Speaker:which called autism
Speaker:a male brain disorder,
Speaker:which, yeah, it was
Speaker:just silly, quite frankly.
Speaker:It was just a really silly theory.
Speaker:It's been disproven a number of
Speaker:times, but this this
Speaker:myth persists.
Speaker:And the reason that I use that one
Speaker:first is just because it's a really
Speaker:easy obvious.
Speaker:Myth.
Speaker:It's very clearly a piece of
Speaker:misinformation that that
Speaker:that there are more autistic
Speaker:boys than girls.
Speaker:But this is something people believe
Speaker:wholeheartedly.
Speaker:And, you know, research over the
Speaker:last ten years all contradicts
Speaker:that and says that girls
Speaker:have been wildly underdiagnosed
Speaker:and wildly under-recognised
Speaker:as autistic girls have
Speaker:gone without accommodations,
Speaker:without recognition,
Speaker:and they've ended up in severe
Speaker:mental distress.
Speaker:They've ended up with depression,
Speaker:they've ended up suicidal.
Speaker:Many of them are no longer with us.
Speaker:A horrifying study was recently
Speaker:revealed right here
Speaker:in Ontario from 2010 to
Speaker:2016.
Speaker:Autistic people were six times
Speaker:more likely to die than
Speaker:non-autistic people with
Speaker:other matching
Speaker:demographics.
Speaker:That mortality rate doesn't
Speaker:come out of thin air,
Speaker:and a lot of it is due to
Speaker:misconceptions that lead to
Speaker:autistic people going unrecognized
Speaker:and accommodated.
Speaker:And the reason that I really focus
Speaker:on that is that.
Speaker:The way people conceptualize
Speaker:autism right now
Speaker:is.
Speaker:Based on all of these different
Speaker:myths, and they're sort of piecing
Speaker:these different stereotypes and
Speaker:myths and things they've seen in
Speaker:sensationalized movies and
Speaker:things they've heard from, you know,
Speaker:their their neighbors
Speaker:brothers got a kid
Speaker:who's autistic.
Speaker:And so they know from hearing about
Speaker:that.
Speaker:And that doesn't actually result
Speaker:in knowledge, right?
Speaker:That doesn't actually result in
Speaker:understanding a situation,
Speaker:especially something as complicated
Speaker:as the human brain, which is
Speaker:where autism, you know,
Speaker:is located.
Speaker:Autism is the way that a brain is
Speaker:wired. It's it's the way that a
Speaker:brain and nervous system
Speaker:are connected to each
Speaker:other and the way that the nervous
Speaker:system interacts with the world
Speaker:around it.
Speaker:My cat is just
Speaker:causing some trouble, so I just have
Speaker:to get him settled so that I can
Speaker:make sure he's not going.
Speaker:Are you going to just chill or.
Speaker:This isn't just any cat, by the way.
Speaker:This cat has been immortalized on
Speaker:fridge magnets around
Speaker:around the globe.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Yeah. I mean, another thing about
Speaker:autism is a
Speaker:trait of being autistic is
Speaker:when you like something
Speaker:are just going
Speaker:ahead and letting yourself like it.
Speaker:And one of the things I really like
Speaker:is cats.
Speaker:And my cat is the best cat.
Speaker:As any cat owner knows,
Speaker:your cat is the best cat.
Speaker:That's just science.
Speaker:That's how that works.
Speaker:And yeah, I definitely
Speaker:also love making buttons
Speaker:again, thanks to advocacy.
Speaker:But I got a button maker for
Speaker:as a graduation present,
Speaker:and so I have definitely made
Speaker:buttons and magnets of my cat
Speaker:and sent them
Speaker:all over the world, actually, not
Speaker:even just all over Canada.
Speaker:So
Speaker:we have one on my fridge.
Speaker:I got my daughter playing with it
Speaker:the other day. I'm like, Oh, that's
Speaker:good. He goes up top,
Speaker:he's got a cab along the bottom.
Speaker:But yeah,
Speaker:you talked about accommodations,
Speaker:right? And I think
Speaker:right now when we think
Speaker:of dealing
Speaker:with autistic people, I
Speaker:say it because I feel like that's
Speaker:how people look at it, not because
Speaker:they're thinking of accommodations,
Speaker:but what they're using right now is
Speaker:a lot of ABA therapy, right?
Speaker:If you're in the NDP, you're getting
Speaker:talking points.
Speaker:How important this therapy is
Speaker:and it's
Speaker:a large basis of
Speaker:our funding model
Speaker:is that how we should be
Speaker:accommodating? Is are these the kind
Speaker:of I know your answer, obviously,
Speaker:but what's up with that?
Speaker:I mean, why is it so focused
Speaker:on that and not actually
Speaker:accommodations?
Speaker:Yeah, this is
Speaker:an excellent question.
Speaker:And, you know,
Speaker:I, I think it's actually
Speaker:also a good point to put
Speaker:the question in because it really is
Speaker:a fundamental part of how people
Speaker:misunderstand autism and
Speaker:autistic people.
Speaker:A lot of people will see me
Speaker:doing advocacy.
Speaker:They'll see me on,
Speaker:you know, the last few years.
Speaker:The only reason I've been able to be
Speaker:so successful is the last few years
Speaker:we've all been doing
Speaker:things remotely. And so I've been
Speaker:able to do things from my own house,
Speaker:and that's where most of my
Speaker:accommodations are in
Speaker:my house when I have to leave my
Speaker:house and and I have to, you know,
Speaker:pack the accommodations I can take
Speaker:to go
Speaker:in. Normally, I end up
Speaker:not being able to do as much stuff
Speaker:and not being able to.
Speaker:You know, you said at the beginning,
Speaker:I do a lot.
Speaker:I do much less
Speaker:when I have to do it without all
Speaker:of my accommodations.
Speaker:And
Speaker:the reason that
Speaker:all of these accommodations are so
Speaker:helpful to me now I've got things
Speaker:like stim toys, which
Speaker:are just little.
Speaker:I've got, for example, a little
Speaker:3D printed worm
Speaker:that kind of click says as you
Speaker:as you wiggle it along.
Speaker:And this is something that I can
Speaker:hold in my hands while I'm having a
Speaker:serious political meeting and
Speaker:I can feel the way that
Speaker:this is.
Speaker:It's a little bit stronger of a like
Speaker:a stripey kind of plastic
Speaker:if you've ever held on to like a 3D
Speaker:printed thing before, you know,
Speaker:there's like a grain to it.
Speaker:And so I can feel that grain and I
Speaker:can feel the way that the different
Speaker:interlocking parts of this thing are
Speaker:moving. And I can process
Speaker:that and I can hear this distinct
Speaker:little clicky noise that it makes.
Speaker:And I can do all of that while
Speaker:I'm in a meeting so that my
Speaker:sensory system, which needs a
Speaker:serious amount of input at all
Speaker:times, is regulated.
Speaker:And that means I can actually
Speaker:process what that politician's
Speaker:saying and then I can respond
Speaker:to them with the information that is
Speaker:there in my brain ready to respond
Speaker:to. Now, if I'm sitting in a
Speaker:meeting room and there's flickering
Speaker:lights which are giving me a crazy
Speaker:headache and my eyes hurt
Speaker:and everything's way too bright in
Speaker:there, and it's actually kind of
Speaker:cold and I'm sitting on this chair
Speaker:that is just I cannot sit
Speaker:comfortably in and because of
Speaker:professionalism, I can't put my feet
Speaker:up on the chair and I can't cross my
Speaker:legs.
Speaker:So I can't have that sensory input
Speaker:either. And I can't be fidgeting
Speaker:with something and I can't have
Speaker:anything in my hands.
Speaker:And I have to be looking at this
Speaker:person's face in front of me
Speaker:and I have to be monitoring my own
Speaker:facial expression and I have
Speaker:to be doing all of these things.
Speaker:I don't have the energy left to
Speaker:listen to what they're saying.
Speaker:I don't have the energy left to come
Speaker:up with something to respond with
Speaker:because my brain is too busy
Speaker:processing all of this sensory
Speaker:information with absolutely no
Speaker:regulating tools.
Speaker:And the reason that I explain it
Speaker:this way is because
Speaker:I could be explaining a political
Speaker:meeting that I took part in as
Speaker:part of a writing executive,
Speaker:or I could be explaining
Speaker:math class
Speaker:when I was eight.
Speaker:And they're both the exact same.
Speaker:Exactly the same.
Speaker:Autistic people are human beings.
Speaker:When we grow up,
Speaker:we actually have mostly
Speaker:the same needs
Speaker:and we actually go
Speaker:through the world as unique
Speaker:individuals.
Speaker:And that means problems that we have
Speaker:as kids are going to persist
Speaker:as adults.
Speaker:Now, a lot of people's solution,
Speaker:like you say to the problem,
Speaker:a lot of people's solution
Speaker:to having to deal with autistic
Speaker:kids is.
Speaker:Yeah, right now behavioral
Speaker:intervention.
Speaker:And so this means that
Speaker:when a child is unable to
Speaker:sit still in
Speaker:the lights without
Speaker:playing with anything
Speaker:and pay attention and look in their
Speaker:teacher's eyeballs,
Speaker:they are having bad behavior.
Speaker:They're having problematic
Speaker:behavior.
Speaker:And so they are referred
Speaker:to behavioral intervention
Speaker:to change their external behavior.
Speaker:Now, some of this behavioral
Speaker:intervention starts with like
Speaker:a behavioral
Speaker:assessment
Speaker:where they try to pin
Speaker:the cause down on
Speaker:a narrow little
Speaker:list and then they
Speaker:try to change the behavior.
Speaker:And so they they
Speaker:show the kid the behavior they want
Speaker:to see, and
Speaker:then they tell the kid it's their
Speaker:turn. And if the kid does the
Speaker:behavior.
Speaker:Sit still.
Speaker:I sit still.
Speaker:Look at me in the eyes, talk
Speaker:out loud, say this exact word back
Speaker:to me, point to this thing,
Speaker:whatever else, put this thing on
Speaker:that's uncomfortable for you,
Speaker:You know, whatever it is,
Speaker:interrupt what you're doing to wave
Speaker:at this stranger, whatever
Speaker:it is.
Speaker:And these are all the
Speaker:more benign ones.
Speaker:To be honest, there are much worse.
Speaker:You know, and then if the kid
Speaker:does it, then
Speaker:they get a lot of praise
Speaker:and positive feedback and a lot of
Speaker:the time, like stickers or candies
Speaker:or they get to play with their
Speaker:favorite toy or
Speaker:they get to have their comfort item
Speaker:or whatever else.
Speaker:And then if they
Speaker:do it wrong, then they
Speaker:get told to do it again.
Speaker:Positively with a big smile.
Speaker:They get told to do it again.
Speaker:Why is that bad, Lulu?
Speaker:You know, a lot of parents would
Speaker:hear that and go, Yeah,
Speaker:I do a form of that kind
Speaker:of. Absolutely.
Speaker:You know, absolutely.
Speaker:I got my kid inside with an M&M
Speaker:yesterday.
Speaker:So the problem is.
Speaker:There is a reason.
Speaker:That autistic children.
Speaker:Need accommodations.
Speaker:Autistic people are
Speaker:wired differently.
Speaker:Our bodies and brains react to
Speaker:the world around us differently
Speaker:than non-autistic people.
Speaker:Behavior interventions.
Speaker:Goals
Speaker:are based on non
Speaker:people.
Speaker:These are goals that
Speaker:are based on
Speaker:what non autistic
Speaker:people are
Speaker:expected to and
Speaker:normally able
Speaker:to do without thinking.
Speaker:Even things like.
Speaker:Like making eye contact,
Speaker:for example.
Speaker:But for an autistic kid,
Speaker:something like sitting still
Speaker:without playing with something
Speaker:or making eye contact with somebody
Speaker:is painful.
Speaker:Now, here's the other thing.
Speaker:Another misconception is that
Speaker:autistic kids reacting to sensory
Speaker:stuff is because they don't like
Speaker:it.
Speaker:This is phrasing that's used
Speaker:or that they're scared of
Speaker:it. People will say, Oh, my child is
Speaker:scared of the vacuum cleaner
Speaker:because she covers her ears every
Speaker:time I turn it on.
Speaker:And that's not fear.
Speaker:Maybe that becomes fear
Speaker:of sensory pain,
Speaker:But sensory pain is not dislike.
Speaker:It's not fear when you're
Speaker:overloaded in one of your
Speaker:senses.
Speaker:It feels as though you
Speaker:are going to burst
Speaker:when I have to, like, go
Speaker:outside into a bright sun,
Speaker:sunny day with no sunglasses
Speaker:on. It's not that I'm kind
Speaker:of uncomfortable.
Speaker:It's that I'm in pain.
Speaker:It hurts.
Speaker:And what happens when we reduce that
Speaker:to behavior,
Speaker:when we say, oh, no.
Speaker:Well, the external behavior.
Speaker:Oh, she's she she
Speaker:screams and hides when we take her
Speaker:outside in the sunshine.
Speaker:We have to teach her to stand still
Speaker:in the sunshine.
Speaker:We have to teach her to stand here
Speaker:like the other kids are standing.
Speaker:So we're going to
Speaker:we're going to enforce her.
Speaker:Until she does that, until she just
Speaker:stands here like the other kids are
Speaker:standing.
Speaker:And then you've got
Speaker:a little kid who's in pain
Speaker:and who's not telling you she's in
Speaker:pain because she doesn't know how to
Speaker:describe that and
Speaker:who's not able to go anywhere
Speaker:because they've prevented her from
Speaker:going anywhere and hiding.
Speaker:And she's not able to do anything to
Speaker:escape the sensory pain.
Speaker:And she's also not allowed to
Speaker:acknowledge that sensory pain out
Speaker:loud.
Speaker:I don't know who might believe
Speaker:that sensory pain is going to
Speaker:disappear because of that,
Speaker:because what actually happens is it
Speaker:builds up inside of
Speaker:that person.
Speaker:And autistic people have so
Speaker:much sensory
Speaker:pain and emotional overwhelm
Speaker:and informational overwhelm
Speaker:and change, overwhelm
Speaker:going on inside of our brains and
Speaker:bodies at all times
Speaker:that what inevitably happens
Speaker:is the dam bursts
Speaker:and we have
Speaker:serious distress
Speaker:because of that, because we are
Speaker:completely overloaded.
Speaker:And again,
Speaker:people want to treat that
Speaker:behaviorally.
Speaker:People want to say that
Speaker:an autistic child who has
Speaker:been stressed and overwhelmed
Speaker:all day by the sensory
Speaker:hell that is our public
Speaker:school system.
Speaker:Has been absolutely
Speaker:decimated by the lights and
Speaker:the screaming of the other kids
Speaker:and having to look up from the work
Speaker:that they just want to be doing all
Speaker:day long and then getting
Speaker:in.
Speaker:Trouble for fidgeting.
Speaker:Getting in trouble for fidgeting,
Speaker:having to try and hold yourself
Speaker:still.
Speaker:And then they get home.
Speaker:Of course, they're going to cry.
Speaker:Of course, they're going to need to
Speaker:release that pent up energy because
Speaker:we pushed them down all
Speaker:day long and then we
Speaker:expected them not to come back
Speaker:up into their their human form.
Speaker:These are people.
Speaker:Children are people.
Speaker:And it really seems like folks
Speaker:forget that these behavior folks,
Speaker:because children are not a series of
Speaker:behaviors.
Speaker:They're human beings.
Speaker:And that's not acknowledged
Speaker:in behavioral approaches.
Speaker:It's really not.
Speaker:And, you know,
Speaker:behavioral conditioning has a
Speaker:absolutely.
Speaker:Of a history,
Speaker:you know, and they talk about the
Speaker:evidence behind behavioral
Speaker:conditioning. And, yeah, let's draw
Speaker:it to its root, which is,
Speaker:you know, conversion therapy,
Speaker:the root of behavioral
Speaker:analysis.
Speaker:Love is and his team
Speaker:his team was also foundational
Speaker:in queer conversion therapy
Speaker:because that was a behavior they
Speaker:didn't like.
Speaker:And just the same way that queer
Speaker:conversion therapy,
Speaker:I shouldn't even call it therapy,
Speaker:but queer conversion practices
Speaker:the attempt to change a
Speaker:queer person's behaviors
Speaker:so they won't be queer any more, an
Speaker:attempt to convince a person
Speaker:through that, through
Speaker:behaviorally controlling them,
Speaker:that that they're not queer anymore.
Speaker:You know, we've also got
Speaker:autistic conversion practices, ABA
Speaker:and behavioral conditioning and
Speaker:behavioral intervention.
Speaker:And these are practices
Speaker:that aim to make autistic people
Speaker:act like we're
Speaker:not autistic. And that doesn't just
Speaker:mean we're they're trying to make
Speaker:us make eye contact.
Speaker:It means they're trying to make us
Speaker:act as though we are not
Speaker:experiencing the world
Speaker:the way that we are.
Speaker:When you're in sensory overload, you
Speaker:can act like you're not in sensory
Speaker:overload, and that doesn't change
Speaker:for a second. The fact that that's
Speaker:what you are experiencing
Speaker:and after a while that
Speaker:adds up Again.
Speaker:There are really horrifying studies
Speaker:showing that autistic people are
Speaker:considerably more likely to die
Speaker:young, not just by
Speaker:things like random
Speaker:unexplained heart
Speaker:conditions, but
Speaker:also one
Speaker:of our highest killers
Speaker:is suicide.
Speaker:And when we've asked autistic people
Speaker:in research why, why
Speaker:are so many of you suicidal?
Speaker:What autistic people have
Speaker:answered with is I am expected
Speaker:to act like somebody else
Speaker:all the time.
Speaker:I can't do it.
Speaker:I'm burnt out.
Speaker:I'm tired.
Speaker:I don't want to live here
Speaker:if I have to act like someone else.
Speaker:And we know this research has turned
Speaker:this up countless times
Speaker:and.
Speaker:Will be called masking Lulu.
Speaker:It is. It is.
Speaker:This is commonly called masking
Speaker:in autistic communities.
Speaker:The the act of having to cover
Speaker:yourself up and present a version
Speaker:of yourself that isn't autistic,
Speaker:that isn't quite you, that isn't
Speaker:authentic.
Speaker:And a lot of people look at this and
Speaker:they say, Hey, I have to do that
Speaker:too,
Speaker:for work, or I have
Speaker:to do that when I'm around people
Speaker:that don't like me or whatever else.
Speaker:And the reason that I, I, you
Speaker:know, didn't
Speaker:open by just trying to
Speaker:explain it as as, you
Speaker:know, covering yourself up is
Speaker:because it's it's.
Speaker:An attempt to make us change
Speaker:from the outside in
Speaker:and society.
Speaker:The education systems
Speaker:psychology these.
Speaker:Institutions
Speaker:have tried really hard to
Speaker:make autistic people not autistic
Speaker:anymore from the outside, in
Speaker:the same worldwide institution
Speaker:that certifies the
Speaker:certified behavioral
Speaker:specialists in Ontario.
Speaker:That same international institution
Speaker:also certifies the behavior analysts
Speaker:at the Judge Rotenberg Center in
Speaker:the States who are currently
Speaker:administering electric shocks to
Speaker:autistic children, mostly
Speaker:black and brown children
Speaker:who were never given the chance
Speaker:to develop any accommodations or
Speaker:any other type of of
Speaker:life, and instead are in an
Speaker:institution getting electric
Speaker:shocks for their behavior
Speaker:because that institution can't see
Speaker:past behavior.
Speaker:And this is why anyone
Speaker:who's offering behaviorism and
Speaker:behavioral intervention as a
Speaker:solution for autism is
Speaker:dangerous.
Speaker:That's someone who doesn't
Speaker:understand what autism is and what
Speaker:autistic people need.
Speaker:I'm going to give you another chance
Speaker:to smash a misconception.
Speaker:Yeah, one that I admittedly
Speaker:needed to hear about,
Speaker:and that's non-speaking autistic
Speaker:people.
Speaker:So a lot of the pushback
Speaker:that I would hear
Speaker:in terms of ABA
Speaker:and self-advocacy
Speaker:is that if basically
Speaker:folks who can't speak,
Speaker:can't advocate for themselves, and
Speaker:so you and
Speaker:other autistic people
Speaker:who do.
Speaker:Verbally communicate
Speaker:or speaking over them.
Speaker:And, you know, only their
Speaker:caregivers really can
Speaker:speak to their lived experience.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So let me tell you, this
Speaker:is actually this
Speaker:is a very common you're right.
Speaker:Another common misconception.
Speaker:And this is actually
Speaker:something where I do believe a lot
Speaker:of people need to grow their
Speaker:understanding.
Speaker:And this was true for myself as
Speaker:well. I'm autistic.
Speaker:My big brother is also autistic.
Speaker:My big brother was one of the first
Speaker:folks that was in
Speaker:Voices who
Speaker:in Ozzy's original
Speaker:studies, when they realized autistic
Speaker:people could also be gifted.
Speaker:And both me and my brother are
Speaker:Obviously I'm as I'm speaking.
Speaker:The reason that's obvious is because
Speaker:we don't have enough funding in
Speaker:alternative communication to have
Speaker:voices that actually
Speaker:modulate the way mine does yet,
Speaker:which is very unfortunate and
Speaker:something I'll get into.
Speaker:But yeah,
Speaker:and this is something that even I
Speaker:believed for a little while, which
Speaker:is that, you know, not
Speaker:non-speaking autistics,
Speaker:they can't add to
Speaker:the conversation themselves.
Speaker:And so we have to listen to
Speaker:the, the, the broadly
Speaker:non-autistic parents around them.
Speaker:And that's that's who knows best.
Speaker:But that opinion of
Speaker:that I also used to hold
Speaker:got smashed pretty quickly when
Speaker:I met non-speaking autistic
Speaker:people myself.
Speaker:And this is something that like,
Speaker:you know, growing up,
Speaker:I grew up in the same society
Speaker:as the rest of you, where we devalue
Speaker:disabled people, we
Speaker:seriously devalue
Speaker:disabled people who have been
Speaker:labeled with things like severe
Speaker:and low functioning
Speaker:and profoundly disabled.
Speaker:We immediately, as a
Speaker:society, we decide
Speaker:that life must be terrible,
Speaker:that must be a low
Speaker:down life because of those
Speaker:labels. Those labels do something
Speaker:to us. They impact how we feel
Speaker:about the people they are used for.
Speaker:And those are labels frequently
Speaker:used for non-speaking autistic
Speaker:people.
Speaker:And that really gets in your head,
Speaker:however.
Speaker:Non-speaking autistic advocates
Speaker:are absolutely
Speaker:rocking
Speaker:the advocacy world and the
Speaker:world in general right now.
Speaker:I'm at
Speaker:the time of recording
Speaker:this in the last week,
Speaker:actually.
Speaker:But maybe I'll just say recently,
Speaker:recently a a
Speaker:clip went viral
Speaker:of Elizabeth Parker,
Speaker:who is a non-speaking autistic
Speaker:girl in the United
Speaker:States who
Speaker:was valedictorian of her class
Speaker:this year and for her graduating
Speaker:class in her her graduation speech,
Speaker:which was delivered
Speaker:by an AC
Speaker:device, which is an alternative
Speaker:and augmentative communication
Speaker:device.
Speaker:Her speech went viral and a lot of
Speaker:people got to see it, and it
Speaker:challenged a lot of people.
Speaker:People really do not expect
Speaker:a non-speaking autistic
Speaker:person to have
Speaker:competence.
Speaker:And this is what non-speaking
Speaker:advocates.
Speaker:The very first lesson that I learned
Speaker:from non-speaking autistic
Speaker:advocates.
Speaker:And this is folks like
Speaker:Kal montgomery.
Speaker:The very first lesson
Speaker:is presume competence.
Speaker:And this is something that we fail
Speaker:to do as a society.
Speaker:We fail to presume competence
Speaker:in non-speaking autistics.
Speaker:And what that leads to and
Speaker:what that falls from
Speaker:is these behavior ideas.
Speaker:Because what non-speaking folks want
Speaker:us to know
Speaker:is that non-speaking
Speaker:does not equal non thinking.
Speaker:And it does not equal incapable.
Speaker:But people do have this in their
Speaker:heads that a non-speaking autistic
Speaker:person doesn't
Speaker:have mental capacity.
Speaker:Or this other one, which is very
Speaker:common, which is mental age.
Speaker:People will say, Oh yeah, my oh,
Speaker:my brother is 18, but he has the
Speaker:mental age of eight or.
Speaker:Whatever, mental capacity or.
Speaker:Mental capacity of a six
Speaker:year old.
Speaker:And look,
Speaker:these people are repeating what they
Speaker:have been told by a
Speaker:supposed medical professional.
Speaker:The problem is that it matters
Speaker:how they determined
Speaker:that.
Speaker:It matters how they decided.
Speaker:This guy has a low IQ.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:A lot of people are not
Speaker:aware of this,
Speaker:but IQ tests
Speaker:are actually
Speaker:entirely dependent on
Speaker:motor capacity
Speaker:and your motor coordination
Speaker:because you need to be able to,
Speaker:especially as a child, for
Speaker:a child's IQ test,
Speaker:you need to be able to point
Speaker:to the word that the person said
Speaker:or you need to be able to.
Speaker:And I.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:A particular word
Speaker:or you might need to speak
Speaker:out loud and repeat a
Speaker:particular word or spell
Speaker:a word out loud with your
Speaker:with your voice.
Speaker:And all of those are motor tasks.
Speaker:Actually, those those
Speaker:don't actually determine whether
Speaker:somebody knows that thing.
Speaker:It just determines whether they can
Speaker:do the motor task to prove to you
Speaker:that they know the thing.
Speaker:Now, it's pretty basic and
Speaker:obvious when when we lay it
Speaker:out that way that these IQ tests
Speaker:are not doing a good job
Speaker:at measuring capacity,
Speaker:they're just doing a good job at
Speaker:measuring motor function.
Speaker:And unfortunately, what that leads
Speaker:to is people thinking that non
Speaker:speakers are incapable.
Speaker:I have a good friend
Speaker:here in Ontario, an advocate who
Speaker:works with the International
Speaker:Association for Spelling
Speaker:as Communication.
Speaker:His name is William Tavares.
Speaker:And William
Speaker:grew up here in Ontario.
Speaker:He's he's
Speaker:he's only just starting high school
Speaker:now.
Speaker:And he grew up in behavior
Speaker:classes and behavior programs
Speaker:because he didn't speak,
Speaker:because he didn't talk and because
Speaker:when he was overwhelmed, he screamed
Speaker:and hit and flailed his arms
Speaker:and tried to get away from
Speaker:the thing that was hurting him.
Speaker:But nobody ever asked what
Speaker:in this room is hurting you?
Speaker:Before he could speak, before he had
Speaker:a communication device.
Speaker:Nobody went and brought him into
Speaker:the room and pointed out different
Speaker:parts of it and said, Is that
Speaker:overwhelming to you?
Speaker:Is that too much?
Speaker:And let him give an affirmative
Speaker:or negative answer that was never
Speaker:provided.
Speaker:What was provided was behavioral
Speaker:intervention to change how he
Speaker:was reacting to those stimulus
Speaker:and how he was reacting to
Speaker:not being able to share his opinions
Speaker:and his feelings and his needs
Speaker:because he didn't have a form of
Speaker:communication.
Speaker:Now, when William did get access
Speaker:to communication and
Speaker:this happens right now,
Speaker:unfortunately, pretty much by luck,
Speaker:when parents allow
Speaker:themselves to be exposed to
Speaker:other autistic advocates
Speaker:and when parents allow themselves to
Speaker:be exposed to non
Speaker:speakers who have developed systems
Speaker:of communication.
Speaker:But when William was able to
Speaker:access communication, he uses
Speaker:spellings to communicate, which
Speaker:means he has
Speaker:managed to get enough motor training
Speaker:so that he can spell words
Speaker:out on a letter board
Speaker:and his communication
Speaker:partner goes ahead and writes
Speaker:that down
Speaker:or says it out loud.
Speaker:If he's on a call
Speaker:and this is a valid form
Speaker:of communication.
Speaker:Since finding that communication,
Speaker:William's doing normal school
Speaker:classes, he's able to actually
Speaker:do the kind of work that is up
Speaker:to his his the caliber
Speaker:of his brain.
Speaker:And a few years ago, he was still
Speaker:getting toddler books read to him
Speaker:because he wasn't able to outloud
Speaker:read them back to the teacher
Speaker:just over and over again
Speaker:because they thought that repetition
Speaker:was going to teach him, because
Speaker:that's how behavior works.
Speaker:When you do a behavior over and over
Speaker:and over again, eventually
Speaker:you're supposed to learn that that's
Speaker:that's the right way of doing
Speaker:things.
Speaker:But unfortunately,
Speaker:apraxia and dyspraxia
Speaker:and other motor connection
Speaker:coordination conditions
Speaker:like William and a lot of non
Speaker:speakers have aren't
Speaker:behaviors, they're not
Speaker:behavioral.
Speaker:That's an actual physical
Speaker:motor problem with the way that
Speaker:the brain is sending signals.
Speaker:And that's something that can be
Speaker:worked through, but not by a
Speaker:behavioral interventionist and
Speaker:not by repetition.
Speaker:You need an actual physical
Speaker:therapist or a physio
Speaker:or sometimes an occupational
Speaker:therapist, but only if they've been
Speaker:trained in kinesiology
Speaker:because that's a motor problem.
Speaker:That's a problem of the actual
Speaker:physical connections.
Speaker:But if non-speaking
Speaker:kids are put into these behavioral
Speaker:programs and
Speaker:yeah, every once in a while they,
Speaker:they learn how to perform a
Speaker:behavior.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Sometimes you can
Speaker:hear stories from non speakers
Speaker:who will talk about
Speaker:behaviors and actions
Speaker:that they learned how to perform
Speaker:even though they weren't feeling
Speaker:that way. And even though that's not
Speaker:what they wanted to say
Speaker:because they would get treated
Speaker:better if they performed it.
Speaker:And like, if that sounds cruel to
Speaker:you, then it is because these are
Speaker:children we're talking about,
Speaker:not employees,
Speaker:we're talking about children.
Speaker:And these standards are imposed on
Speaker:them. You know.
Speaker:I think like when anybody looks at
Speaker:it from even if they
Speaker:can't understand autistic people,
Speaker:I think a lot of people's empathy
Speaker:rides, unfortunately, on being able
Speaker:to understand why someone would be
Speaker:upset by lights when they cannot
Speaker:fathom that, you know, or
Speaker:and so it stops like there's no
Speaker:level of there's no attempt
Speaker:to kind of, yeah, provide
Speaker:accommodation or empathy without
Speaker:fully understanding
Speaker:why it seems so unreasonable.
Speaker:Like when we see meltdowns and and
Speaker:you know what I mean? Like that's
Speaker:just seen as bad behavior often
Speaker:and
Speaker:it's just yeah, I,
Speaker:I do appreciate you kind of doing so
Speaker:much work in breaking
Speaker:these stigmas and,
Speaker:you know, trying to show people what
Speaker:actual accommodation looks like,
Speaker:what access to communication
Speaker:looks like.
Speaker:It's not all the same for everybody.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I want to just say I really
Speaker:appreciate you bringing that up
Speaker:because one of the one of the ways
Speaker:that this kind of misinformation and
Speaker:these kind of stigmas are
Speaker:being perpetuated is that folks
Speaker:aren't hearing these messages.
Speaker:They're not hearing from the people
Speaker:who are actually most impacted like
Speaker:non speakers.
Speaker:You know, the work that I do is is
Speaker:all 100% informed by the
Speaker:non-speaking autistic leaders
Speaker:that I'm following.
Speaker:I'm not you
Speaker:know, I'm a I didn't
Speaker:learn any of this by myself.
Speaker:This comes from.
Speaker:Folks that are living through
Speaker:absolute hell because our society
Speaker:believes that being non-speaking
Speaker:is some kind of challenging
Speaker:behavior.
Speaker:And one of the things that
Speaker:I've learned is, you
Speaker:know, I promise I'll talk
Speaker:more about advocacy in politics.
Speaker:But as as
Speaker:a researcher and as a
Speaker:teacher and a student
Speaker:at this time, I've actually been
Speaker:really startled.
Speaker:I did a I did a guest lecture
Speaker:in a fourth
Speaker:year like final year.
Speaker:Disability studies are
Speaker:a child and youth studies class.
Speaker:And it was like the disability
Speaker:issues class for senior child
Speaker:and youth studies undergrads.
Speaker:And I did a guest lecture and I
Speaker:talked about how autistic kids
Speaker:experience the world.
Speaker:And I had a little
Speaker:chart that had, you know, the
Speaker:behavior on one side and then the
Speaker:experience on the other side.
Speaker:And so the behavior might
Speaker:be, I
Speaker:can't sit still.
Speaker:And then the experience
Speaker:might be I feel like there's
Speaker:electricity going up and down my
Speaker:legs. And if I don't run to get
Speaker:it out, then I can't
Speaker:think about anything else.
Speaker:I feel like pain in my legs.
Speaker:I'm cramping up now.
Speaker:What am I supposed to do?
Speaker:And I made this little chart and to
Speaker:me that seems these things seemed
Speaker:obvious, right?
Speaker:Because I might just say this is how
Speaker:I experience the world.
Speaker:But to those students,
Speaker:to those child and youth studies
Speaker:students who are in their final
Speaker:year, I had someone put up her hand
Speaker:and say specifically,
Speaker:I just want to say I've never
Speaker:thought about it like that.
Speaker:And that's horrifying to me that
Speaker:for years through child abuse
Speaker:studies, the children have not been
Speaker:ask to the students have not been
Speaker:asked.
Speaker:How do you think the kid is
Speaker:experiencing this situation?
Speaker:They haven't sat down and thought
Speaker:about it, and I really that
Speaker:makes me worry.
Speaker:And I think that's the same problem
Speaker:in politics, is that these
Speaker:people have never sat
Speaker:and thought about, oh, how
Speaker:might this experience be for
Speaker:someone who has a different
Speaker:brain than me, who has a different
Speaker:nervous system, whose body reacts
Speaker:to external stimulus differently
Speaker:than mine.
Speaker:And it's really hard sometimes to
Speaker:put yourself in someone else's shoes
Speaker:when you've never
Speaker:had the opportunity to hear from
Speaker:from people like that who've
Speaker:you've never had access to the
Speaker:resources.
Speaker:So I don't I don't blame people that
Speaker:don't have access to the resources.
Speaker:But once you've been given those
Speaker:resources and once you've been told
Speaker:these children are not being
Speaker:naughty, they're in pain
Speaker:and they need accommodations, and
Speaker:you still say
Speaker:no, it's just a behavior problem.
Speaker:That's cruelty, because
Speaker:children are people, which is
Speaker:something I shouldn't have to keep
Speaker:reminding politicians, but I do.
Speaker:People being able to communicate
Speaker:like their experience.
Speaker:Does it come naturally, though, to
Speaker:especially when they're not
Speaker:diagnosed?
Speaker:Part of the reason there's such a
Speaker:huge phenomenon of missed
Speaker:diagnosis
Speaker:and this is not just women and
Speaker:trans folks.
Speaker:This is also black kids
Speaker:and indigenous kids and Asian
Speaker:kids and
Speaker:Latin American kids.
Speaker:This is literally all over the
Speaker:place.
Speaker:The the sort of assessment
Speaker:criteria
Speaker:for for autism.
Speaker:Is very much focused on
Speaker:the white,
Speaker:upper middle class boys,
Speaker:little boys that they were studying
Speaker:at the time when they developed that
Speaker:criteria.
Speaker:The actual criteria, like the
Speaker:exclusion criteria for
Speaker:the studies that they did to form
Speaker:autism assessment criteria,
Speaker:the exclusion criteria mandated
Speaker:that only boys were included.
Speaker:So there's actually
Speaker:there's like.
Speaker:Millions of autistic people
Speaker:all over the world who are
Speaker:unrecognized and unacknowledged
Speaker:and trying to live through this
Speaker:world which is designed not just
Speaker:not for us, but actively
Speaker:against us.
Speaker:A lot of the time
Speaker:and when you're not diagnosed,
Speaker:you think you're just weak.
Speaker:You think you're just not doing
Speaker:things well enough.
Speaker:I'm 100% sure that people are going
Speaker:to listen to this podcast and
Speaker:they're going to hear these traits
Speaker:that I'm talking about and they're
Speaker:going to hear the way that the world
Speaker:is experienced by autistics and
Speaker:they're going to say, Wait a minute.
Speaker:Everybody doesn't feel that way.
Speaker:Everybody doesn't go through crisis
Speaker:because they are they are made to
Speaker:look in people's eyeballs.
Speaker:Maybe I might be autistic.
Speaker:And that happens every time
Speaker:I speak publicly.
Speaker:Someone comes up to me afterwards
Speaker:and says, I have been miserable
Speaker:because I thought I was broken.
Speaker:And it turns out I'm autistic.
Speaker:And now I don't know what to do.
Speaker:And normally the reason you
Speaker:don't know what to do is because,
Speaker:yeah, you don't have the
Speaker:terminology.
Speaker:You don't know how the systems work.
Speaker:You don't know how the sensory
Speaker:system works.
Speaker:You weren't actually explained that
Speaker:past what each of the five
Speaker:senses are.
Speaker:We were never taught sensory
Speaker:regulation as kids.
Speaker:You don't know how to explain it.
Speaker:And that's one of the big problems
Speaker:with not only, you know, undiagnosed
Speaker:adults but children.
Speaker:We go to children and we punish them
Speaker:for behaving
Speaker:distressed,
Speaker:and we haven't taught them yet
Speaker:what it means to emotionally
Speaker:regulate what it means to regulate
Speaker:your sensory system
Speaker:in a plain language way that kids
Speaker:can understand. That's just not
Speaker:something that's done for how.
Speaker:To accommodate themselves or how
Speaker:great it is.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Don't even know where to start to
Speaker:feel better, you know, until,
Speaker:you know, there is some sort of, I
Speaker:think, intervention or I.
Speaker:A lot of the stuff that you do is
Speaker:building peer groups as well
Speaker:and hanging out with other
Speaker:neurodivergent people
Speaker:and knowing how they,
Speaker:you know, their accommodations,
Speaker:their snooze rooms, their,
Speaker:you know, and
Speaker:that's that's really, you know, from
Speaker:my personal experience that that was
Speaker:really missing.
Speaker:And I'm so glad you talk
Speaker:about it the way that you do.
Speaker:Oh,
Speaker:well it's and that's the thing
Speaker:that's important because so many
Speaker:people have had to go without.
Speaker:And that's just something that,
Speaker:you know, you're going to get me
Speaker:going. Sorry, That's just something.
Speaker:Don't worry.
Speaker:No, that's that's one of the really
Speaker:big fears, is even the kids
Speaker:that grow up knowing they're
Speaker:autistic. And that's this is the big
Speaker:thing. Another thing like everywhere
Speaker:in disability issues, you see people
Speaker:trying to split up into binaries.
Speaker:You see people trying to say visible
Speaker:and invisible disability.
Speaker:You see people try to say mental
Speaker:and physical disability.
Speaker:You try to say all of these
Speaker:different binaries. You try to say
Speaker:high functioning and low functioning
Speaker:and you try to bust stuff up.
Speaker:And honestly,
Speaker:even the people who are recognized
Speaker:because they're still put into these
Speaker:weird ass binaries that don't
Speaker:fit the human experience,
Speaker:they still actually don't get access
Speaker:to the support they really need.
Speaker:They just get told, you
Speaker:know, oh, here's here's how you can
Speaker:behave like other people do.
Speaker:And that means that even even folks
Speaker:that are recognized, you know, it's
Speaker:not even undiagnosed and diagnosed
Speaker:folks because diagnosed folks also
Speaker:go without accommodation because
Speaker:they're essentially told they're not
Speaker:trying hard enough to not be
Speaker:autistic anymore,
Speaker:which is horrifying.
Speaker:Who wants that anyway?
Speaker:So I know
Speaker:who would be terrible.
Speaker:The world would be a lesser place.
Speaker:But that's the thing of it.
Speaker:And when when
Speaker:we assume that
Speaker:we understand
Speaker:the experiences of somebody totally
Speaker:different from ourselves, we often
Speaker:miss out on stuff.
Speaker:And that is what has happened with
Speaker:autistic people and with
Speaker:non-speaking autistic people,
Speaker:especially when I started actually
Speaker:hanging out with non-speaking
Speaker:autistic people,
Speaker:I, I still had this idea
Speaker:in my head of like, well,
Speaker:you know, I don't have
Speaker:things like as bad as non
Speaker:speakers. And so, you
Speaker:know, maybe I maybe I am mild,
Speaker:but I hang out with non-speaking
Speaker:people and I
Speaker:have more in common with them
Speaker:when they explain their experiences.
Speaker:When I get to read, I have a
Speaker:book of poetry here by Hannah
Speaker:Emerson, who is an absolutely
Speaker:phenomenal non-speaking
Speaker:poet.
Speaker:Hannah Emerson's book is called The
Speaker:Kissing of Kissing.
Speaker:And when I read her poems,
Speaker:when I see
Speaker:folks like William, who
Speaker:I talked about earlier, William.
Speaker:Suarez, who
Speaker:puts together these essays
Speaker:and poetry and
Speaker:this incredible connective.
Speaker:Communication.
Speaker:I have more in common with that
Speaker:than I do with the average
Speaker:non-autistic person that I have to
Speaker:go talk to at a
Speaker:school event or a party.
Speaker:I can't connect with those people
Speaker:the way I can connect with non
Speaker:speakers and
Speaker:the way that the autistic brain
Speaker:works is not more
Speaker:or less. It's not one way or
Speaker:the other.
Speaker:They've actually done
Speaker:neurological studies where they've
Speaker:tried to say, Oh, what does the
Speaker:autistic brain look like?
Speaker:What does a severely autistic
Speaker:brain look like?
Speaker:And what they found was that there
Speaker:is no one autistic
Speaker:brain. There is a non
Speaker:autistic brain.
Speaker:They had a neurotypical control
Speaker:group and their brains all mostly
Speaker:function the same. They followed the
Speaker:same patterns as each other,
Speaker:but autistic people's brains.
Speaker:There was no one pattern.
Speaker:Everyone's brain was doing something
Speaker:divergent, something different.
Speaker:And that's what we have in
Speaker:connection with each other.
Speaker:And that's why we can understand
Speaker:each other. And that's why peer
Speaker:support is so important.
Speaker:Because somebody with a brain that
Speaker:does that, the typical wiring
Speaker:does not understand what
Speaker:life is like for someone whose brain
Speaker:does not do that typical wiring
Speaker:and does not follow those typical
Speaker:paths.
Speaker:And you're 100% right.
Speaker:Peer support is a huge
Speaker:part of what I do
Speaker:in my spare time and my advocacy,
Speaker:but it's also what I really advocate
Speaker:for for autistic kids,
Speaker:especially autistic kids
Speaker:who are struggling.
Speaker:With.
Speaker:Things like institutional schools
Speaker:and things like families
Speaker:that don't understand them.
Speaker:Let's talk a bit about your
Speaker:advocacy. Right.
Speaker:A lot of folks tuning in are
Speaker:advocates themselves, and
Speaker:we talk about like
Speaker:a diverse amount
Speaker:of tactics and the need to diversify
Speaker:our tactics. And not everybody kind
Speaker:of goes that at tackling the status
Speaker:quo the same way.
Speaker:But when I look at the stuff
Speaker:that you do,
Speaker:not just single handedly,
Speaker:but the stuff that you've shared
Speaker:with me, from non-Autistic
Speaker:Poetry Night to
Speaker:your NDE and DP
Speaker:Group.
Speaker:You seem to use all the tactics.
Speaker:Well, a lot of them.
Speaker:Which one brings you the most joy,
Speaker:though, Lulu?
Speaker:Community building.
Speaker:Community building brings me the
Speaker:most joy. And in my opinion,
Speaker:it has been the most.
Speaker:Impactful work that
Speaker:I've done.
Speaker:The fact that I have been able to
Speaker:bring Neurodivergent
Speaker:folks together
Speaker:who otherwise would not ever
Speaker:have met and
Speaker:I have been able to get them into
Speaker:rooms where they
Speaker:can share their experiences
Speaker:in whatever communication
Speaker:method works for them,
Speaker:where they are not feeling pressured
Speaker:to speak out loud, where they are
Speaker:not feeling pressured to put their
Speaker:cameras on, and all of these things.
Speaker:And the fact that I have managed to
Speaker:get folks into rooms and that
Speaker:they've become friends
Speaker:and that now they have that person
Speaker:that they can hang
Speaker:out with, that person they can talk
Speaker:to that person, they can comment
Speaker:on their Facebook status
Speaker:when they're sick.
Speaker:That.
Speaker:The fact that, yeah, the
Speaker:fact that as humans, we're
Speaker:capable of bringing other humans
Speaker:together and
Speaker:building communities.
Speaker:I am 100%
Speaker:swept away whenever we have
Speaker:events and and meetings
Speaker:and things like this.
Speaker:You mentioned that in the NDP,
Speaker:that's the Neurodivergent NDP.
Speaker:So that's a group of
Speaker:volunteers and advocates
Speaker:and allies
Speaker:and NDP members
Speaker:and folks that really want to see
Speaker:neurodivergent issues
Speaker:advanced on and progressed
Speaker:on. Because right now,
Speaker:unfortunately, progressive parties
Speaker:like the NDP, who
Speaker:are progressive in many other ways,
Speaker:are still living.
Speaker:You know, in in the past
Speaker:when it comes to things like autism
Speaker:and mental health
Speaker:and when all of your solutions to
Speaker:neurological and psychological
Speaker:conditions are behavioral,
Speaker:you're really missing the point of
Speaker:the problem, right?
Speaker:You're not actually getting to the
Speaker:root of what's going
Speaker:on and what people are experiencing
Speaker:and slapping Band-Aids on
Speaker:on wounds, you know, without
Speaker:actually closing them, as we know,
Speaker:does not help, does not work,
Speaker:and actually leads to a huge
Speaker:potential for like
Speaker:serious infection and serious
Speaker:harm that gets in because
Speaker:you didn't do what you needed to
Speaker:do to begin with.
Speaker:And so
Speaker:with the narrative in NDP,
Speaker:we actually formed because
Speaker:a number of Neurodivergent
Speaker:NDP members
Speaker:and advocates
Speaker:were essentially just tired of
Speaker:hearing the same old, you know,
Speaker:stigmatizing language and
Speaker:bizarre, archaic, supposed
Speaker:solutions to
Speaker:the quote unquote autism file.
Speaker:And this is one of the things that
Speaker:I find very dehumanizing is the
Speaker:way that autistic
Speaker:kids are talked about by
Speaker:politicians,
Speaker:that there's a movement
Speaker:of calling saying that autistic
Speaker:children who are not being
Speaker:behaviorally modified are
Speaker:and I quote, languishing
Speaker:away.
Speaker:This is the kind of language they
Speaker:use to describe
Speaker:children who are reacting
Speaker:to the world around them, which is
Speaker:not built for them.
Speaker:And it's it's just really
Speaker:horrifying. They really painted as
Speaker:some kind of like like epidemic.
Speaker:You know, we have an actual plague
Speaker:going on, but it's autistic
Speaker:children that get treated like
Speaker:they're some kind of contagion or
Speaker:something like this.
Speaker:And that is really unfortunate.
Speaker:And so a number of
Speaker:us got together and
Speaker:I have to give a shout out to folks
Speaker:like Kamal Ahmed and Spencer
Speaker:Gallup, who are a couple of the
Speaker:first folks that really
Speaker:inspired me and
Speaker:like uplifted me and made
Speaker:me believe that we could actually do
Speaker:something together. So I'm going to
Speaker:cry because we actually have done
Speaker:something together.
Speaker:We've done something really amazing.
Speaker:I had to also shout out to Eric,
Speaker:Eric, Eddie, which is my my partner,
Speaker:who's also done a phenomenal amount
Speaker:of work with the and the NDP.
Speaker:But what we've created is actually
Speaker:this group of people who
Speaker:share experiences and
Speaker:share challenges and share struggles
Speaker:and are able to organize
Speaker:about it and are able able to
Speaker:support each other as we try
Speaker:to fight back.
Speaker:And there's something just really
Speaker:moving about it when,
Speaker:you know, whenever, whenever we
Speaker:actually get to do something,
Speaker:whenever, whenever I get
Speaker:to hear another neurodivergent
Speaker:person say, Thank God you guys are
Speaker:doing this or or whatever
Speaker:else, it it is
Speaker:completely mind
Speaker:blowing that we've able
Speaker:we've been able to make that space
Speaker:and to take that space up
Speaker:and to and to keep fighting,
Speaker:especially in the face of huge
Speaker:industries like
Speaker:the like the behavioral intervention
Speaker:industry.
Speaker:It is really against the
Speaker:interests of that industry
Speaker:for neurodivergent people to
Speaker:start talking to
Speaker:each other and to start getting
Speaker:connected and to start saying,
Speaker:actually we don't have to
Speaker:let this happen to kids
Speaker:like us. We don't have to let this
Speaker:happen to our community
Speaker:and to actually start fighting back
Speaker:against it. And now we've connected
Speaker:with folks in every province.
Speaker:We've connected with folks all
Speaker:over this
Speaker:colonial wreck of a planet.
Speaker:And, you know, we've also connected
Speaker:with neurodivergent
Speaker:political groups like
Speaker:the Neurodivergent Labor in
Speaker:the UK and Neurodivergent
Speaker:Labor in Australia, Labor
Speaker:in Australia, of course,
Speaker:having just formed government
Speaker:in the recent election and the
Speaker:Secretary of.
Speaker:Labor. Australia
Speaker:of the party is ADHD
Speaker:openly and is part of
Speaker:of neurodivergent Labor.
Speaker:And the fact that there's stuff like
Speaker:that worldwide and that we're,
Speaker:you know, following in the footsteps
Speaker:of these people that are doing such
Speaker:amazing work and that we're going to
Speaker:get that done here in Canada too.
Speaker:It's absolutely wonderful
Speaker:and it's hard.
Speaker:It's not easy to fight,
Speaker:you know, your own people.
Speaker:It's not easy to have to say,
Speaker:look, you guys, I know
Speaker:you care.
Speaker:I know that you believe the things
Speaker:you do about autism because you
Speaker:care.
Speaker:But those things are wrong and
Speaker:we need to do better.
Speaker:It's not easy work.
Speaker:People don't want to hear that.
Speaker:People don't want to hear they've
Speaker:been wrong about something that has
Speaker:felt so virtuous to them, has felt
Speaker:so good and so pure
Speaker:for them. Oh, I'm just supporting
Speaker:autistic children.
Speaker:So when I come in and I have to tell
Speaker:them, okay, it matters how
Speaker:it matters, what support, it
Speaker:matters. Because if
Speaker:if that quote unquote, therapy
Speaker:is somebody who actually sees this
Speaker:kid as a series of behaviors,
Speaker:you know, there are behavioral
Speaker:intervention people, their names,
Speaker:their title is behavior
Speaker:technician.
Speaker:These are people who are exposed to
Speaker:three year olds for
Speaker:sometimes 6 hours a day, five
Speaker:days a week.
Speaker:Behavioral technicians, they're
Speaker:there to.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Make your robot child
Speaker:act the way it's supposed to.
Speaker:And that's that's scary stuff.
Speaker:And the fact that support
Speaker:for that often comes from what is
Speaker:the left, what is supposed to be the
Speaker:progressive side of politics?
Speaker:Yeah, it's it's awful.
Speaker:It feels terrible.
Speaker:But let me tell you, it feels a
Speaker:lot less terrible when you're
Speaker:in a group of other neurodivergent
Speaker:people who are ready to fight back
Speaker:and support each other, not
Speaker:just in political fights, but in
Speaker:personal ones, in making
Speaker:sure people you're you're getting
Speaker:the medical care that you need and
Speaker:the supplies that you need and
Speaker:making sure that you're being taken
Speaker:care of when disasters have struck.
Speaker:And when you have that group of
Speaker:people that are that are ready to
Speaker:in the long haul, because this is
Speaker:a long term fight.
Speaker:And so being able to actually build
Speaker:community like that means
Speaker:everything, I
Speaker:think, not just to me, but to
Speaker:everybody within the NDA.
Speaker:It's it means quite a lot
Speaker:that we're able to do it.
Speaker:So a lot of a lot
Speaker:of the activists I've talked to
Speaker:speak of building communities, I
Speaker:think that's kind of pivotal to a
Speaker:lot of to organizing
Speaker:personally, Right?
Speaker:Is first job is
Speaker:bringing people together and making
Speaker:sure your spaces are safe and,
Speaker:you know, protecting them
Speaker:and so folks
Speaker:can grow and share and fight.
Speaker:But I imagine
Speaker:in our work as organizers
Speaker:on the left, that perhaps sometimes
Speaker:we're making spaces that aren't all
Speaker:that friendly to autistic people.
Speaker:Is there some things that
Speaker:a lot of us are?
Speaker:You know, I was in a
Speaker:meeting the other day and very
Speaker:progressive folks, but
Speaker:there was just this huge
Speaker:encouragement to turn on your
Speaker:camera. You had to turn on your
Speaker:camera. It was kind of like you
Speaker:weren't really participating.
Speaker:And immediately I thought
Speaker:of how uncomfortable
Speaker:that would make me on certain days.
Speaker:And so I felt forced to turn my
Speaker:camera on.
Speaker:But, you know,
Speaker:things like that, are there
Speaker:are there practical things that
Speaker:we could do better as organizers
Speaker:so that our spaces are
Speaker:more accommodating?
Speaker:Well, that's an excellent example
Speaker:for sure, making sure people don't
Speaker:have to turn cameras on.
Speaker:Partially because
Speaker:my experience is
Speaker:different than some people's in that
Speaker:I'm actually pretty comfortable
Speaker:being on a zoom and just like not
Speaker:looking at either myself
Speaker:or the other person
Speaker:because I've I
Speaker:am really bad at things like eye
Speaker:contact and facial
Speaker:like on my moderating my face.
Speaker:I'm just not good at that
Speaker:because it takes so much motor
Speaker:energy that then I can't pay
Speaker:attention to other stuff
Speaker:and.
Speaker:The other thing is being able to
Speaker:like stim.
Speaker:So a lot of autistic people will
Speaker:flap our hands or things
Speaker:like this or we'll rock back and
Speaker:forth.
Speaker:People in meetings will all the time
Speaker:see me rocking back and forth
Speaker:and things like this are seen
Speaker:as like disruptive or inpatient
Speaker:or things like this.
Speaker:And for that reason, a lot of people
Speaker:would prefer to just not have their
Speaker:camera on because that's something
Speaker:they really have to worry about.
Speaker:So that's a good example.
Speaker:Another example, um,
Speaker:inviting autistic
Speaker:people
Speaker:somewhere or sending
Speaker:like a attempting
Speaker:to reach out to autistic
Speaker:people.
Speaker:When you have,
Speaker:uh,
Speaker:when you have taken the words
Speaker:of non autistic
Speaker:autism advocates as
Speaker:fact.
Speaker:So this is something that people on
Speaker:the left do a lot is
Speaker:they hear a parent group
Speaker:or something that's called
Speaker:an advocacy group
Speaker:say something and
Speaker:they will repeat it
Speaker:without
Speaker:critically thinking about it and
Speaker:without looking into it and
Speaker:seeing how the people most impacted
Speaker:actually feel.
Speaker:And now this is the true across
Speaker:cases. They're like books
Speaker:by white people about
Speaker:white fragility, for example,
Speaker:which is like, okay, yeah, for sure.
Speaker:Why? Why would I listen to a white
Speaker:person about that, though?
Speaker:Because that's not
Speaker:that's not something a white person
Speaker:is actually going to be the best
Speaker:source for. And so that's not
Speaker:something I'm going to do. I'm going
Speaker:to turn to books by black people.
Speaker:If I want to hear about anti-black
Speaker:racism, you know, I'm going to turn
Speaker:I'm going to turn to resources
Speaker:by trans folks when I want to hear
Speaker:what trans experiences are like.
Speaker:And for some reason on
Speaker:the left, it's okay
Speaker:to hear from non autistic
Speaker:people about what autistic lives are
Speaker:like.
Speaker:And I don't know why.
Speaker:That's okay.
Speaker:I know it has been the case with
Speaker:other marginalized Asians before.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And with other oppressed people.
Speaker:That's absolutely the case.
Speaker:But I do not understand
Speaker:why people on the left act that
Speaker:way towards disabled folks and
Speaker:towards autistics and I should say
Speaker:all disabled folks, because it's not
Speaker:just autistics, it's also
Speaker:non-disabled people who fight
Speaker:so hard for things like
Speaker:Bill C-7 to expand access
Speaker:to MAID. That's another thing to
Speaker:expand access to medically
Speaker:a medical assistance in death.
Speaker:And that's something that again, the
Speaker:biggest advocates
Speaker:for that and they call themselves
Speaker:that the biggest
Speaker:advocates for those expansions
Speaker:are not the people that expansion's
Speaker:going to kill, yet
Speaker:those are the people who are seen as
Speaker:experts.
Speaker:Those those those
Speaker:people who, you know, are
Speaker:disregarding how many
Speaker:lives we're going to lose because of
Speaker:that expansion and
Speaker:lives that could have been led
Speaker:happily and comfortably
Speaker:if they if people were given the
Speaker:resources and accommodations
Speaker:that they need.
Speaker:And again, it comes back to this.
Speaker:And now, yes, the the
Speaker:further expansions upcoming
Speaker:the further expansions include
Speaker:folks whose only diagnosis is mental
Speaker:illness.
Speaker:It also includes mature
Speaker:minors.
Speaker:Which means parents
Speaker:can decide that their disabled
Speaker:child wants
Speaker:a medically assisted death.
Speaker:Obviously, that's horrifying.
Speaker:The the expansion
Speaker:the expansion to made was supported
Speaker:by all the major parties in
Speaker:parliament and was supported by the
Speaker:NDP. The Liberals and Conservatives
Speaker:opposed it some of the
Speaker:time and some
Speaker:of the time, didn't they?
Speaker:They opposed it on religious
Speaker:reasons, which is not the right
Speaker:reason to oppose it.
Speaker:It's one of those like, don't.
Speaker:It's not that we agree on why,
Speaker:but this is bad.
Speaker:That's got to hurt, though.
Speaker:I mean, it's like when the
Speaker:conservatives have the right to take
Speaker:on a bill and you just don't want
Speaker:to agree with them for the wrong
Speaker:reason. I cringed when you said
Speaker:that. I was hoping it was fully
Speaker:unanimous. We could hate them all.
Speaker:No, sadly,
Speaker:Honestly, though, it really
Speaker:is scary stuff.
Speaker:The Liberal government appointed
Speaker:a.
Speaker:The Liberal government called the
Speaker:Speaker for
Speaker:the deliberations about the
Speaker:expansion just this past week.
Speaker:And this guy that they called up
Speaker:has advocated for parents to
Speaker:be able to kill
Speaker:their kids with medically assisted
Speaker:death as young as five
Speaker:years old.
Speaker:I should say the thing
Speaker:that got me really into advocacy,
Speaker:you know, I thought I was
Speaker:because of these stigmas, you know,
Speaker:because I had only been in mental
Speaker:crisis for a decade and a half,
Speaker:and I didn't consider that serious.
Speaker:I considered myself, like, not
Speaker:disabled enough to really
Speaker:talk about it, and I
Speaker:should just be quiet about it
Speaker:because I
Speaker:don't have I'm
Speaker:not severe enough to actually talk
Speaker:about being disabled.
Speaker:And the thing that really
Speaker:actually got me to understand
Speaker:that disabled people's
Speaker:lives are valuable
Speaker:enough and my own life
Speaker:is valuable enough that I need to
Speaker:acknowledge how hard things are and
Speaker:I need to acknowledge how many
Speaker:accommodations I need.
Speaker:And, yes,
Speaker:you know, furlough centers, my life
Speaker:got considerably, considerably
Speaker:easier and I had considerably
Speaker:less challenges once I
Speaker:acknowledged I needed a lot of
Speaker:accommodations and started putting
Speaker:those accommodations in place.
Speaker:But until until
Speaker:I went to an event which was
Speaker:co-produced by Autistics United
Speaker:Canada.
Speaker:Autistics United Canada is an
Speaker:absolutely incredible national
Speaker:advocacy and education
Speaker:group who have done some really
Speaker:important work. And I really,
Speaker:really, I really respect and
Speaker:appreciate Artists United Canada,
Speaker:and they had
Speaker:put on an event for
Speaker:the disability day of mourning.
Speaker:Now, this is a day every
Speaker:year it's an annual
Speaker:vigil for
Speaker:disabled children and disabled
Speaker:adults, disabled people
Speaker:who were killed by their caregivers.
Speaker:Phil aside,
Speaker:there is a an advocate
Speaker:who did a
Speaker:a speech at
Speaker:this disability day of mourning
Speaker:event that I happened to get
Speaker:into because I at that
Speaker:time was trying to figure out what
Speaker:resources there were for autistic
Speaker:people around.
Speaker:And I found this event and I
Speaker:went to it and
Speaker:resolve Banerjee, who
Speaker:is another amazing advocate,
Speaker:writer and researcher,
Speaker:Raghav did a speech
Speaker:where he talked about how.
Speaker:The.
Speaker:The murdered disabled child
Speaker:is vilified and
Speaker:the parent is
Speaker:given.
Speaker:Praise because.
Speaker:They had so much on their plate.
Speaker:And this is the case when
Speaker:parents, you know, decide that
Speaker:their autistic non-speaking child
Speaker:is just so miserable
Speaker:that they would be better off
Speaker:deceased.
Speaker:Then, you know, now
Speaker:now they're going to have a legal
Speaker:right to do that.
Speaker:And that means that non-speaking
Speaker:autistic will never have the chance
Speaker:to develop a system of
Speaker:communication. We will never get to
Speaker:learn what was in their brain.
Speaker:They may never go on to do the
Speaker:things that they might have done.
Speaker:They may not go on to do the art,
Speaker:to write the poems, to do
Speaker:the paintings, to have the
Speaker:relationships that they would have
Speaker:had. And it's because people
Speaker:have decided that
Speaker:disabled folks lives are not
Speaker:valuable and can't be valuable.
Speaker:And unfortunately, you know,
Speaker:we talk about misconceptions and
Speaker:oppression, and that's the
Speaker:that's the root of it.
Speaker:That's able ism right there.
Speaker:And this is
Speaker:something C-7 is something that has
Speaker:has really called into sharp
Speaker:attention the lack
Speaker:of disability, justice, education
Speaker:on the left
Speaker:ever.
Speaker:It's been being
Speaker:talked about for, you know, more
Speaker:than a year.
Speaker:And still there are people on
Speaker:the left saying, well, I support
Speaker:medically assisted death.
Speaker:And disabled people have to say,
Speaker:yeah, we we do as well.
Speaker:But lifting these safeguards right
Speaker:now and expanding access
Speaker:to children
Speaker:and people whose only diagnosis
Speaker:is mental illness and people
Speaker:who do not have a foreseeable death,
Speaker:and people who are only suffering
Speaker:because they don't have the housing
Speaker:and the supports and the
Speaker:the living support
Speaker:that they need to live
Speaker:the good life they have in
Speaker:their potential future.
Speaker:Instead, these people.
Speaker:Are going to die.
Speaker:This is something that was brought
Speaker:to the federal NDP convention.
Speaker:There was an emergency resolution
Speaker:last year at the convention
Speaker:which asked the party urgently
Speaker:to specifically to consult
Speaker:with autistic people about
Speaker:support of things like
Speaker:C-7 and the National Autism
Speaker:Strategy, which is a
Speaker:piece of legislation which
Speaker:is being written by non
Speaker:autistic people and non autistic
Speaker:organizations,
Speaker:obviously.
Speaker:And as as these go through.
Speaker:The problem is that it's
Speaker:not again, it's not that
Speaker:I don't like this.
Speaker:It's that it's deadly.
Speaker:It's that this expansion
Speaker:you know, I can talk about how
Speaker:autistic people are stigmatized
Speaker:and ostracized
Speaker:and treated horribly everywhere from
Speaker:school to workplaces.
Speaker:And then I can tell you that we're
Speaker:about to make it so
Speaker:anyone who's depressed can
Speaker:immediately qualify for maid.
Speaker:I can't.
Speaker:We can't build a community
Speaker:with disabled folks.
Speaker:We can't help disabled people
Speaker:if we're just offering them only
Speaker:death and nothing else.
Speaker:And unfortunately,
Speaker:yeah, that's that's a message that
Speaker:seems not to have resonated
Speaker:yet with much of.
Speaker:Much of the left, which is
Speaker:in Canada, which is a really
Speaker:startling thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, we're getting near the
Speaker:kind of end of our session.
Speaker:I imagine I'm going to have to have
Speaker:you on again to talk more
Speaker:specifically on
Speaker:some campaigns that
Speaker:are going to shape up.
Speaker:But if you could have the
Speaker:allies ship.
Speaker:Of listeners, if you could call
Speaker:them, to action to help.
Speaker:With your work and
Speaker:what's one thing or you
Speaker:know, what broadly
Speaker:could you tell them?
Speaker:That's where they need to start.
Speaker:Listen to non-speaking autistic
Speaker:people is where I would start
Speaker:presume competence
Speaker:of non speakers and listen
Speaker:to non-speaking autistic people.
Speaker:There are non speakers who have
Speaker:been absolutely
Speaker:unbelievably patient
Speaker:as social
Speaker:movements and politicians
Speaker:have talked over them and walked
Speaker:over them.
Speaker:And then I cannot tell
Speaker:you how much
Speaker:non-speaking autistics have been
Speaker:through
Speaker:because of
Speaker:so-called progressive people's
Speaker:insistence on listening
Speaker:to non autistic people
Speaker:about what experiencing life as
Speaker:an autistic person is like.
Speaker:I'm sure I can provide some links
Speaker:that can be in the description of
Speaker:the podcast to some folks that
Speaker:folks can listen to and folks that
Speaker:people can check out.
Speaker:I highly recommend
Speaker:Communication first and
Speaker:the International Association for
Speaker:Swallowing as communication as
Speaker:starting points, because
Speaker:those those are
Speaker:organizations that have
Speaker:like endless resources from
Speaker:non-speaking people.
Speaker:Because when we talk about, you
Speaker:know, oh, this kid, he's crying and
Speaker:running away. So we have to deal
Speaker:with this behavior.
Speaker:We're missing the experience of
Speaker:that human being.
Speaker:We are missing the experience of
Speaker:that person.
Speaker:And if we can go to somebody else
Speaker:who screams and runs away when
Speaker:things are overwhelming, who
Speaker:has developed a system of
Speaker:communication, who has been given
Speaker:access to communication, and we
Speaker:can ask them, what
Speaker:is that experience like?
Speaker:What do you need in that situation
Speaker:that is worth 1 million
Speaker:times more than any temporary
Speaker:behavioral performance
Speaker:of not having that experience?
Speaker:And so, yeah, my
Speaker:number one thing is get
Speaker:your information from non-speaking
Speaker:autistic people about autism.
Speaker:And I feel like I have to add the
Speaker:disclaimer to also believe
Speaker:that, yes, whatever the kit,
Speaker:I don't care how absurd
Speaker:you think the accommodation sounds,
Speaker:you know, a kind of light
Speaker:texture.
Speaker:Just believe them.
Speaker:Yeah, because that is
Speaker:my biggest frustration is
Speaker:trying to
Speaker:have folks understand
Speaker:and be empathetic towards
Speaker:it in order
Speaker:to provide the accommodation.
Speaker:Well, that doesn't make sense to
Speaker:you.
Speaker:And again, it's about the experience
Speaker:of it, right? It's about recognizing
Speaker:that other people who have different
Speaker:kinds of brain, the you and
Speaker:different kinds of nervous system
Speaker:interacts with the world differently
Speaker:than you. And when you can accept
Speaker:that and acknowledge that actually
Speaker:a lot of stuff becomes less
Speaker:frustrating and it becomes a lot
Speaker:easier to maintain
Speaker:relationships and communication
Speaker:and all kinds of other things, once
Speaker:you can acknowledge the way
Speaker:I would experience the situation
Speaker:is not necessarily how that person
Speaker:is experiencing the situation.
Speaker:You have to listen to that person
Speaker:exactly right.
Speaker:You have to believe that person
Speaker:about how they are experiencing the
Speaker:situation, because otherwise
Speaker:you're not doing equity, you're
Speaker:not doing justice, you're doing
Speaker:ego.
Speaker:And that's not what our movements
Speaker:are supposed to be made out of.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:No. Why do you need the
Speaker:accommodation? Because I think a lot
Speaker:of people
Speaker:don't realize why,
Speaker:Right? They just know.
Speaker:I don't know why that light bothers
Speaker:me. Right. Yeah, I.
Speaker:It just does.
Speaker:Yeah. I don't know why I get home
Speaker:at the end of the day and need to
Speaker:decompress for half an hour before
Speaker:anyone asks me a question.
Speaker:I just do.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So hundred percent.
Speaker:And yeah, having to defend
Speaker:that, especially children who most
Speaker:certainly cannot articulate
Speaker:why something needs to be turned off
Speaker:or on or whatever
Speaker:is incredibly frustrating.
Speaker:So like, although
Speaker:folks can advocate for themselves,
Speaker:I'm so grateful that there are
Speaker:people that, you know, take this
Speaker:onus on themselves the
Speaker:way that you have, the way that, you
Speaker:know, other guests have, too.
Speaker:One of the other things one of the
Speaker:other things that really sucks
Speaker:is I would rather
Speaker:have given this interview
Speaker:to a non like I would rather have
Speaker:brought a non speaker up and been
Speaker:like, Hey, do you want to do this
Speaker:interview?
Speaker:But right now on the left,
Speaker:it's not really safe
Speaker:for autistic people to be
Speaker:advocating.
Speaker:The reason that I
Speaker:push as hard as I do and the reason
Speaker:that I'm making the space I'm making
Speaker:is because non
Speaker:speakers and autistic
Speaker:folks in general right now don't
Speaker:feel safe engaging
Speaker:in a lot of political stuff.
Speaker:You've got to hide yourself there.
Speaker:You can't you know, there's so much
Speaker:ableism, there's so much
Speaker:inaccessibility
Speaker:that. A lot of folks are just
Speaker:tuning out.
Speaker:And unfortunately,
Speaker:when we do things like we have this,
Speaker:yeah, this actually kind
Speaker:of ties into the idea
Speaker:of like disability fakers.
Speaker:This is, again, another conservative
Speaker:ideal that a lot of leftists
Speaker:unfortunately also hold, which
Speaker:is this idea that there are people
Speaker:taking advantage of accommodations
Speaker:and disability supports, which
Speaker:is absurd because you have to
Speaker:fight literally like through
Speaker:fire and brimstone to
Speaker:get supports and
Speaker:to get accommodations.
Speaker:And I don't know anyone who would do
Speaker:that, like just to
Speaker:get an accommodation that didn't
Speaker:help them that
Speaker:they didn't need.
Speaker:That's just not how that
Speaker:works.
Speaker:And unfortunately.
Speaker:To me, that makes no sense at all
Speaker:because I would rather hide
Speaker:it. Yeah. Than
Speaker:be open and beg.
Speaker:For an accommodation solely then beg
Speaker:and then then to to
Speaker:lose your, you know, your
Speaker:sense of of
Speaker:authenticity and all of this because
Speaker:you've got to, you know, go through
Speaker:these dehumanizing
Speaker:trials just to get accommodations.
Speaker:And yeah, that asking why
Speaker:is like it's a certain kind of
Speaker:cruelty right.
Speaker:You've you've got to try to
Speaker:especially for folks who have never
Speaker:received adequate support,
Speaker:who don't have the words to advocate
Speaker:for themselves, even if you are
Speaker:speaking, if you've never been
Speaker:actually exposed to the types
Speaker:of accommodations and the
Speaker:types of sensory experiences
Speaker:and all of this, then how on earth
Speaker:are you supposed to know what to ask
Speaker:for and how,
Speaker:let alone to explain?
Speaker:Like I can't explain the
Speaker:physical internal reaction
Speaker:that's happening.
Speaker:You know, when the air conditioners
Speaker:so loud that I can't think.
Speaker:I don't know how to explain that
Speaker:past that, but that's
Speaker:100% a thing that will
Speaker:stop me from getting any work done
Speaker:all day long.
Speaker:And that's not something that folks
Speaker:for whom that is not a problem
Speaker:can really understand.
Speaker:It's not something that people have
Speaker:a reference for.
Speaker:But we've got this sort of trend of
Speaker:people that will say things like,
Speaker:Oh, everyone's a little
Speaker:neurodivergent insert
Speaker:here. So people will say, Oh,
Speaker:you know, everyone's a little ADHD
Speaker:sometimes or something like that.
Speaker:I hear that all the time.
Speaker:Everybody's I hear that somewhere on
Speaker:the spectrum or whatever.
Speaker:And the problem with phrases like
Speaker:that is it leaves these people who
Speaker:are not autistic, who are not
Speaker:ADHD, to believe
Speaker:that an
Speaker:event that has happened to them
Speaker:allows them to understand what
Speaker:it's like to live as an autistic
Speaker:person every single day.
Speaker:And that's just not the case.
Speaker:They just don't have that frame of
Speaker:reference.
Speaker:And that has I really
Speaker:believe that's been a huge driver.
Speaker:That kind of language and that kind
Speaker:of attitude has been a huge driver
Speaker:towards people saying things
Speaker:like, Why would you need that
Speaker:accommodation? We all have trouble
Speaker:with bright lights sometimes.
Speaker:Why would you need that
Speaker:accommodation when the rest of us
Speaker:can just deal with it
Speaker:and it's because we're not
Speaker:experiencing it the same way
Speaker:at all.
Speaker:But yeah, there's this belief that,
Speaker:you know, well, I experience things,
Speaker:so that's how it must be.
Speaker:And yeah, that, that absolutely
Speaker:screws people out of accommodations
Speaker:all the time, which
Speaker:is awful.
Speaker:I actually also really appreciate
Speaker:the point about like having
Speaker:to go beg for accommodations
Speaker:because I really do want to
Speaker:highlight like it's an incredibly
Speaker:dehumanizing and
Speaker:disrespectful process
Speaker:in every institution
Speaker:to go there and get accommodations
Speaker:and to go there and be openly
Speaker:disabled.
Speaker:There aren't institutions that have
Speaker:made that an empowering process.
Speaker:I can't name one
Speaker:other than like, you know, folks,
Speaker:folks in grassroots organizing
Speaker:groups, like people like the
Speaker:Disability Justice Network.
Speaker:And I would hope
Speaker:some of the work that I do as well.
Speaker:But I you know, I'm not the one that
Speaker:gets to say that even.
Speaker:And I have to recognize that.
Speaker:So, like, what does that look like?
Speaker:May be actively providing
Speaker:accommodations.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:people are likely to need
Speaker:asking ahead of events
Speaker:100% accommodations.
Speaker:You know, organizers can expect
Speaker:rather than waiting for somebody to
Speaker:come and say, I need.
Speaker:Yeah. Subtitles, right?
Speaker:I need subtitles.
Speaker:Can you put them on?
Speaker:I mean, that those are just small
Speaker:kind of commonsense things.
Speaker:But I found like,
Speaker:just adding an accessibility field,
Speaker:you know, to an invitation.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:So that, yeah, nobody has to figure
Speaker:out what the mechanism is.
Speaker:And then following up on it.
Speaker:Right. Because another problem is
Speaker:that sometimes people will put
Speaker:something like a field in, but then
Speaker:they'll decide it's not useful
Speaker:because they aren't following up on
Speaker:it.
Speaker:They the gatekeepers are like,
Speaker:Oh, this system's too hard for me.
Speaker:I need to just not do this.
Speaker:Which is unfortunately, what happens
Speaker:in a lot of institutions and
Speaker:organizations is
Speaker:that non-disabled people really
Speaker:don't understand how vital those
Speaker:accommodations are and the space
Speaker:to make those accommodations.
Speaker:Nobody wants to go to an event
Speaker:and have to go to,
Speaker:you know, get in through the back
Speaker:door because there's no ramp at the
Speaker:front. And then it's so loud in
Speaker:there and there's absolutely no
Speaker:break and there's no, you know,
Speaker:access to things.
Speaker:Nobody wants to go through that.
Speaker:But we force people to by
Speaker:not proactively thinking about
Speaker:it.
Speaker:And I also don't want anyone to
Speaker:believe that you can you can foresee
Speaker:every possible accommodation that's
Speaker:necessary.
Speaker:It is very wise
Speaker:to get in the habit
Speaker:of, you know, a
Speaker:semi, a universal design.
Speaker:A lot of folks don't have the
Speaker:you know, especially grassroots
Speaker:groups don't have resources to
Speaker:redesign every single one of their
Speaker:bits of work all at once.
Speaker:But attempting to make sure
Speaker:that all of your spaces provide
Speaker:a base accommodation
Speaker:group or a base list of
Speaker:accommodations
Speaker:and then having that space where you
Speaker:peop you know that people will be
Speaker:listened to and people know that
Speaker:they will be listened to.
Speaker:And having that space to say, hey,
Speaker:what doesn't work for you?
Speaker:If there's something you need,
Speaker:please let us know.
Speaker:Here's the resources to let
Speaker:us know. We're not just going to
Speaker:say, oh, email us.
Speaker:We're going to.
Speaker:Actually mail the accessibility
Speaker:officer an email address
Speaker:I'm going to mention once and not
Speaker:put in the chat.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:The kind of thing doesn't happen.
Speaker:Wouldn't it be horrible if it did?
Speaker:Wouldn't that be so exclusionary
Speaker:and anti equitable
Speaker:and oppressive if that was how
Speaker:people were going about things?
Speaker:And so, yeah, it's it's it's really
Speaker:it is unacceptable stuff
Speaker:and it goes on every day.
Speaker:So, Lulu,
Speaker:I've asked you a lot of questions,
Speaker:but is there anything.
Speaker:That.
Speaker:I didn't ask that you definitely
Speaker:wanted to share.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:One thing I will say is
Speaker:being an artistic advocate in
Speaker:supposedly progressive spaces
Speaker:has been really
Speaker:illuminating for me.
Speaker:Um, and I,
Speaker:I say that because
Speaker:autistic people are
Speaker:presumed to be
Speaker:incapable.
Speaker:No matter what we are doing.
Speaker:So I'm currently
Speaker:in a master's degree
Speaker:doing actual research
Speaker:on autistic youths well-being.
Speaker:I've also been studying
Speaker:autism and autistic people for
Speaker:something like a decade.
Speaker:I've been
Speaker:a peer supporter for autistic
Speaker:people through the Mood Disorders
Speaker:Association of Ontario,
Speaker:and I work with multiple advocacy
Speaker:groups across Canada and across
Speaker:the world.
Speaker:But because I'm.
Speaker:Autistic.
Speaker:And because I say I'm autistic,
Speaker:there are politicians
Speaker:who will say, I can't possibly
Speaker:know anything about autism
Speaker:and I can't possibly be telling the
Speaker:truth because I'm speaking.
Speaker:But that same politician
Speaker:will then go to a non autistic
Speaker:speaking parent
Speaker:and believe what that parent says
Speaker:about autism.
Speaker:Now, that parent is not
Speaker:hasn't been studying autism for ten
Speaker:years, isn't currently researching
Speaker:autism officially with
Speaker:government funding and
Speaker:hasn't been involved
Speaker:in the autistic community,
Speaker:doesn't have any adult
Speaker:non-speaking autistic friends that
Speaker:they don't have power over.
Speaker:But that's the person that's going
Speaker:to be listened to, not the
Speaker:autistic expert of the field.
Speaker:And that the only
Speaker:reason that that could be happening
Speaker:is able is a
Speaker:that's what that is.
Speaker:That's prejudice
Speaker:and ableism.
Speaker:And unfortunately, that's running
Speaker:rampant.
Speaker:And so, yeah.
Speaker:The other thing I would say is just
Speaker:that people need to leave
Speaker:their biases and assumptions
Speaker:about what autism means
Speaker:and what autism feels
Speaker:like to autistic people
Speaker:behind in the past,
Speaker:because that's where the information
Speaker:they formed those assumptions from
Speaker:is from the past.
Speaker:It's ancient history
Speaker:at this point.
Speaker:So anybody who
Speaker:wants to talk about autism,
Speaker:whether you're a politician or,
Speaker:you know, a even a non
Speaker:autistic disabled advocate or
Speaker:somebody else,
Speaker:you can't go in
Speaker:with assumptions that you
Speaker:learned from people who are
Speaker:autistic.
Speaker:You can't go in with assumptions
Speaker:that you had backed up
Speaker:by
Speaker:sensationalized media.
Speaker:You know, you have to go into
Speaker:these conversations recognizing
Speaker:that what you've learned about
Speaker:autism was wrong.
Speaker:Sometimes it's it sucks to hear that
Speaker:that what we think we
Speaker:know about something is wrong.
Speaker:But what most leftists
Speaker:know about autism is simply
Speaker:not true.
Speaker:It's not how autistic brains
Speaker:work.
Speaker:And so that's that's what I would
Speaker:say is I really need people to
Speaker:understand that.
Speaker:And there's nothing wrong with you
Speaker:for not knowing about autism.
Speaker:There's nothing wrong with the
Speaker:people who are mistaken,
Speaker:who have been taught wrong.
Speaker:That's that's not.
Speaker:You're not the problem.
Speaker:But if you hear this stuff and
Speaker:you read these resources and you go
Speaker:check out these non speakers that
Speaker:I'm talking about
Speaker:and you still side
Speaker:with non autistic people about
Speaker:this political issue, about
Speaker:this justice issue,
Speaker:then you're kind of the problem,
Speaker:you know.
Speaker:And so I do need people to start
Speaker:thinking about that and to start
Speaker:putting that in perspective for
Speaker:themselves because like
Speaker:as the tide turns, it's
Speaker:going to be really embarrassing
Speaker:for people who are fighting
Speaker:the tide.
Speaker:You can't stop it.
Speaker:This is a justice issue.
Speaker:This is a human rights issue.
Speaker:And believing hard enough that
Speaker:you're on the right side of it,
Speaker:that's not going to cut it for
Speaker:you when it actually comes
Speaker:around. So I just really,
Speaker:really hope that people can think
Speaker:about it critically
Speaker:before they throw support behind
Speaker:things that are actually really
Speaker:ablest.
Speaker:Yeah, I think there's a lot of
Speaker:unpacking of the abilities.
Speaker:I think that's one of the
Speaker:last isms too, for us
Speaker:to really explore because like I
Speaker:said at the beginning, I have never
Speaker:seen
Speaker:that absence of nothing
Speaker:for us without us
Speaker:in any kind of policy formation,
Speaker:except when it has to deal
Speaker:with disabled folks.
Speaker:And you made a
Speaker:comment there where folks
Speaker:need to understand
Speaker:autism better and
Speaker:understand the autistic experience
Speaker:better.
Speaker:And that also
Speaker:goes for people who've gone
Speaker:undiagnosed for some autistic
Speaker:people, because those
Speaker:those misconceptions permeate
Speaker:everybody there.
Speaker:Society will say, yeah, yeah,
Speaker:that ableism isn't just enabled
Speaker:people, unfortunately,
Speaker:and it has such a devastating
Speaker:impact.
Speaker:It does.
Speaker:It does.
Speaker:A recent study
Speaker:and again, this is you know,
Speaker:one of the things about being
Speaker:autistic is that.
Speaker:Most autistic folks
Speaker:really treasure
Speaker:input and information in
Speaker:a way that non-autistic people don't
Speaker:as much.
Speaker:I found
Speaker:and one of the things there is
Speaker:I like having backup
Speaker:for what I'm saying.
Speaker:Like, I like knowing what I know and
Speaker:knowing why it's the case.
Speaker:I need to know why something is the
Speaker:case. If I am going to actually
Speaker:think that I believe it.
Speaker:And when we
Speaker:don't know.
Speaker:Why there's why
Speaker:this disconnection keeps happening
Speaker:between people or why
Speaker:this environment that other people
Speaker:seem okay in is so stressful to
Speaker:us. Or why, if all the
Speaker:other kids can sit in the circle,
Speaker:why does it feel so bad for me to
Speaker:sit in the circle?
Speaker:And if you don't know that you
Speaker:haven't had that explained to you
Speaker:that your circuitry is processing
Speaker:things different than other
Speaker:people's, then you you think
Speaker:there's something wrong with you.
Speaker:And a very reasoned study, which is
Speaker:really horrifying in Sweden,
Speaker:found that the majority
Speaker:of people hospitalized
Speaker:for psychiatric problems
Speaker:when they were properly screened
Speaker:were ADHD and autistic
Speaker:people.
Speaker:And out of the 34
Speaker:autistic people that they found,
Speaker:only seven of
Speaker:those people were diagnosed
Speaker:autistic.
Speaker:And this survey found 34
Speaker:in this one hospital.
Speaker:Those people were undiagnosed
Speaker:their whole lives
Speaker:and they went through a mental
Speaker:crisis because of it.
Speaker:And there's no denying that that's
Speaker:how that goes when you're autistic
Speaker:and you go through the world and you
Speaker:don't have accommodations and you're
Speaker:expected to act like everybody else.
Speaker:It leads to mental illness that
Speaker:leads to mental crisis.
Speaker:And we know that.
Speaker:So we really need to back
Speaker:away from behavioral
Speaker:services and people
Speaker:who want us to believe.
Speaker:That.
Speaker:Autistic people's
Speaker:suffering and struggling
Speaker:comes from the autistic
Speaker:person's own behavior.
Speaker:That's just not how it works.
Speaker:The struggle and the suffering comes
Speaker:from the environment and the
Speaker:society, which is consistently
Speaker:oppressing and pushing autistic
Speaker:people down to try and
Speaker:turn them into something they're
Speaker:not.
Speaker:And that's what actually causes
Speaker:the harm.
Speaker:I totally wish more people
Speaker:understood that perspective.
Speaker:Lulu and I, we're working on it.
Speaker:I yeah, I was just going to say, I
Speaker:know that is your mission and not
Speaker:just your mission, so
Speaker:I know you had a bright moment.
Speaker:I know it was a lot of doom and
Speaker:gloom, but you had a bright
Speaker:moment there where you said, you
Speaker:know, we have done a lot and you
Speaker:have.
Speaker:And we can do more.
Speaker:That's the thing. I don't
Speaker:believe there is a limit to
Speaker:how much autistic people can can
Speaker:achieve and neurodivergent people in
Speaker:general. I know we talk a lot about
Speaker:autism here because that's like a
Speaker:sort of a political
Speaker:issue at this moment.
Speaker:But very soon so will be
Speaker:ADHD and OCD
Speaker:and
Speaker:things like
Speaker:dyslexia and dyspraxia
Speaker:and all of these things because
Speaker:people who are neurodivergent
Speaker:are running
Speaker:up against these barriers
Speaker:and these barriers are being made
Speaker:taller right now.
Speaker:They're being made thicker.
Speaker:They're being made harder to scale
Speaker:by this sort of doubling down
Speaker:on a behavior focus.
Speaker:This industry will expand.
Speaker:It will not just be autistic people
Speaker:that be the behavior intervention
Speaker:industry targets.
Speaker:Once they have successfully
Speaker:legislated themselves into autistic
Speaker:people's lives, they will legislate
Speaker:themselves into other children's
Speaker:lives. They will legislate
Speaker:themselves into a disabled adults
Speaker:lives. They will legislate
Speaker:themselves into poor people's
Speaker:lives because those poor people just
Speaker:aren't behaving well enough to
Speaker:make the money they need.
Speaker:It's going to expand.
Speaker:This is an industry which is a
Speaker:threat to every marginalized
Speaker:community and it needs to start
Speaker:being treated that way.
Speaker:Lulu, I want to thank you so much
Speaker:for your time again
Speaker:and again. I honestly could never
Speaker:thank you enough on
Speaker:a personal note.
Speaker:But professionally, you know, you
Speaker:you spent time here informing our
Speaker:listeners. You spend countless
Speaker:hours trying to better
Speaker:the NDP and the policies there.
Speaker:And then just all of
Speaker:your work in the Neurodivergent
Speaker:community and
Speaker:the academic work that you do.
Speaker:So I thank you very, very much.
Speaker:Thank you so much, Lulu.
Speaker:Like in all things that we do,
Speaker:there's a team behind blueprints of
Speaker:disruption.
Speaker:I want to give a big thank you to
Speaker:our producers, Santiago.
Speaker:Hello, Quinn Tero and
Speaker:Jay Woodruff.
Speaker:Our show is also made possible by
Speaker:the support of our listeners.
Speaker:So if you appreciate our content
Speaker:and would like to become a patriot,
Speaker:please visit us at.
Speaker:W w. W dot patron
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Speaker:So if you know of any work that
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Speaker:to provide feedback of our show,
Speaker:please reach out to us on Twitter at
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Speaker:Blueprints of Disruption is a
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