Shownotes
What if your emotions are not happening to you, but through you? On Soul Sparks, host Nazish sits with psychotherapist Byron Athene to question what we were taught about our feelings.
You will leave with a freer relationship with your own mind, where negative emotions become messengers, not malfunctions, and a growth mindset feels like something you switch back on.
About the Guest:
Byron Athene is a counselling psychotherapist, life coach, and author who overcame a lifelong stutter using the growth mindset he now teaches. He blends ancient philosophy with modern psychology, and recently published Find Your Path to Resilience.
Key Takeaways:
- Emotions move through you, not at you. That shift changes how you respond to life.
- Negative feelings are messengers, not malfunctions. Listen before you fight them.
- You were born with a growth mindset. Often it is switched off, not missing.
- Self worth is intrinsic value. Self esteem is how much you like yourself. Do not confuse them.
- Work with your protective parts, not against them. Compassion heals faster than force.
Connect With the Guest:
Website: https://byronathene.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/byron-athene/
Book: Find Your Path to Resilience, available on Amazon and bookshop.org
Episode Chapters:
[00:00] Why do our emotions run us
[03:00] The Freud myth: do we really need to feel bad
[08:00] Parts of the mind: the reality maker, dreamer, acceptor, chemist
[13:00] Updating an outdated perception of reality
[18:00] From "I am a limitation" to "I have a limitation"
[23:00] The genie lamp: where bad emotions are really born
[27:00] Switching your growth mindset back on
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Transcripts
00:00:17 Nazish: Welcome to Soul Sparks. I am Nazish, and today I'm joined by Byron Counselling psychotherapist life coach, someone who overcame a debilitating stutter through the very growth mindset principles he now teaches. Byron, it is so wonderful to have you here.
00:00:36 Byron Athene: Thank you. It's great to be here. Thanks for. Thanks for inviting me.
00:00:40 Nazish: Yes. So you, have a visionary approach that integrates ancient philosophy and cutting edge psychology, and I think a lot of people have a common misunderstanding about how about their own emotions. Like they think the thing they think is true. That gets in a way. So what do you have to say about that?
00:01:03 Byron Athene: Yeah. Well, I think if we if we fully understood what our emotions are and where they came from, we would have a completely different view of life. So let's, let's simplify the, the, the, the history of emotions and let's say, let's say our general view of emotions came from what Sigmund Freud said. He was the one who said that we needed to have negative emotions. They were useful. If we don't experience them, then we're going to develop issues. But I discovered a truth that, well, I discovered something that that that that highlighted the idea that that's not necessarily true. Yeah. Can I say.
00:01:47 Nazish: That? Yes, yes, that makes a lot of sense, to be really honest. And, you know, I think the idea that the emotions are happening to you rather than through you. Yeah. Is something so important.
00:02:02 Byron Athene: Yep. Definitely. Definitely. I mean, if people, if people understood the, um, the proactive role they play in their emotions and the, um, the subconscious strategy that's involved, then we would, yeah, we would, we would, we would be able to, um, to regulate our emotions better get more out of life, change our perceptions. Life would just be better. I think for most people most of the time.
00:02:29 Nazish: So yeah. And what do you think? Where does this misunderstanding usually come from? Like, is it a cultural, familial or a developmental thing.
00:02:40 Byron Athene: Well, like I said, I think the general misinterpretation comes from what so-called experts like Freud said. So if we were so because he said a certain thing and people just accepted that as the truth, we, we, we stopped looking for the real reason because he, he already came up with with the answer. But his, his, his answers can be, um, proven to be um, false or, um, not exactly scientifically proven. So I, when I discovered what I did, I discovered it because I was able to manage my emotions much better than I ever thought I could. I was able to reframe and feel, feel good right after feeling bad. So that made me ask if I can, if I can feel good right after feeling bad, what's the point of feeling bad in the first place? And I then asked people I. I started to hear the same reasons over and over again, and I knew those reasons weren't true. So the main reasons are we need bad to no good, which is not true. We our bad emotions are are useful. And of course that's not true as well. Or our bad emotions might be useful, but they're not the most useful emotion to have in in some circumstances. Uh, the other main reason is that, well, emotions are just, they're, we're humans, we have emotions, so we're going to have bad emotions. But none of those reasons really kind of resonated with me. So I thought, well, I don't think that's true. So what's the real reason I didn't find it, but I stopped looking. I was just satisfied that I wasn't maybe doing anything to psychologically harm myself. But then when I found the real reason, I thought, well, no, surely, surely, surely this can't be true. Because if this is true, why? Why is it not? Why is it not more commonly known? And why didn't anyone say it when I asked? Because I asked lots of people and everyone I asked gave the same three reasons over and over again. So it was, um, it was hard to, it was hard to fully accept, but I've not been able to, no one's been able to disprove it since, and I discovered it around thirty three years ago now.
00:04:41 Nazish: Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And I think I think that might be one of the most consequential, consequential misunderstanding in human experience because, you know, it determines whether you respond to it or you just react.
00:04:57 Byron Athene: Yeah. definitely. Definitely. Yeah. We, we are, we, we, we tend to be more reactive as opposed to responsive. And that's, I think that's, that's due to the misunderstanding of our, of our negative emotions.
00:05:12 Nazish: Yeah. So, you know, I, you talk about different parts of mind that are that are responsible for how we perceive and feel. So can you walk me through what you mean by that?
00:05:25 Byron Athene: Okay, so to walk you through what I mean exactly, I'll have to give a summary of something called Internal Family Systems, which was a family therapy approach developed by someone called Richard Schwartz. Now he he he was interested in systems thinking. So if you were to try to resolve someone's issue, you could try to work with them specifically or independently. But the work could probably go faster if you worked with the system he's in. So therefore the family, um, he he, he got much, much quicker, more, um, successful. Um, I don't know results and so, and so he, he was the one that suggested the controversial idea that all of us have multiple personalities. This was a controversial idea because of multiple multiple personality disorder or dissociative identity disorder, which is, which is what it's called now. But he, he, he suggested that all of us have a self which is the core agency of the mind or the person. But then we also have protectors and exiles. And this is a this is a trauma model. So he says, if we go through a traumatic event, part of us fractures from the self that parts of exile. That's the part that carries the pain. Another part fractures called the protector. So it's the it's the protectors job to keep the exile away from the self, because the protector doesn't think that the self can handle feeling it. And so that's why people can hold on to like pain and shame and guilt for such a long time because the the protector is almost preventing us from healing. We would heal if we were, if we were allowed for our well, if the protector allowed herself to experience the exile, then that would that would, um, start start the healing process. So I, I, I, it's almost like, uh, have you seen a film called Inside Out?
00:07:28 Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
00:07:30 Byron Athene: Yeah. So yeah. So that, that, that was a great film. And so that, that, that really did drive home the, the, um, the idea that we, we, we have different agencies in the mind. And in that film, it was like it was based on like a ten year old. Riley. We saw different parts, different emotions, like anger, sorrow. And so yeah, so that was, that was a really important, um, kind of development in how we understand the mind. I don't think it's entirely accurate, but it was definitely closer to the mono mind model that lots of people usually embody or believe that we are, we just have one personality and one mind. But yeah, we, we, we clearly have different aspects of or different subpersonalities as, as he called them. So I was working with someone who was trying to resolve a certain issue and it didn't seem to really the, the trauma model didn't really seem to fit. So I thought, well, maybe there are more parts that aren't identified in the internal family systems approach or model. And so I realized that there are there are different parts that I, I identified for. I identified a part called the reality Maker. Um, there's a part called the dreamer. There's a part called the acceptor. And there's a part called the chemist. So the reality maker is the part of the brain that just recreates reality constantly. It's, it's on all times we are perceiving or we're um, yeah, perceiving raw data, we're doing magic mind stuff. And then we're turning that raw data into the reality that we experience. That's the, that's the, the role of the reality maker. So the reality maker creates our model of reality. But then at the same time, there's another part of the of the mind called the dreamer. So the reality, the reality maker creates what is the dreamer creates what could be or what you want to be. So they are, they sometimes produce two, two different pictures. So. So one is the actuality. The other one is a more maybe idealized version of the actuality. So that if if there is a difference that's called, that can be referred to as the reality gap. So the third part, the acceptor, they're the one who observed the reality gap and decides what to do about it. Because if they if they think that the reality gap is really important, they then instruct the chemist to dispense an uncomfortable, um, uncomfortable chemical. Because that's the way, that's the way we got our needs met as babies.
00:10:01 Nazish: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you know, the, my, I think the mind, the part of mind doing its job invisibly in the background and doing it so well. Yeah. That we think the output is reality rather than interpretation.
00:10:18 Byron Athene: Yeah, exactly. It's so it's so seamless. It's such a seamless, unconscious automatic process. And if we if we allow it to remain unconscious, our realities might be distorted because we are, um, we're it's almost like having a computer and not installing updates. It's like our, our, our perception hasn't really changed that much since we were, we were kids, but we are now doing, doing different things. We have different skills. We have different resources. So we, we, we should have updated our, our perception, but we haven't really because, you know, we, well, a lot of people haven't because they haven't really been encouraged to because of um, psychology does seem to still be a somewhat niche, um, subject like psychology philosophy. So unless you're particularly interested in the field, you're probably not going to do the intensive work involved in changing your perception and questioning your reality and, and, and stuff.
00:11:23 Nazish: Absolutely. I completely agree with you there. And I think, uh, like, uh, like from your journey, I know that you have had a deliberating stutter your whole life and you sought refuge in or, uh, you know, office work for over two decades before developing a growth mindset. So what was the turning point for you?
00:11:47 Byron Athene: Uh, well, a couple of turning points. So, okay, so I, I, I discovered this idea in like nineteen ninety one and the reason why I have negative emotions, it really benefited me or it really helped me. I thought, well, I think I could, I think it would benefit other people as well. So I thought about becoming a therapist back then. I was around twenty, twenty one, twenty two or so. And but I thought, well, no, because I've got a stutter and because of the, because of my, the relationship I had with myself then wasn't entirely ideal because of the stutter. Like I, I quite low self esteem, low self-worth. So I, I felt like, and I tried quite a few different, different methods to try to resolve this, but I saw a speech therapist, I tried hypnosis, NLP, um, a few other things that nothing, nothing really worked well. Yeah, things worked in terms of the stutter improved, I guess, or my fluency improved, but it was still there. So I felt like, um, too much of a hypocrite to help people with their issues as a therapist, even though I couldn't help myself with mine. So that's why I sought refuge in safe jobs like, uh, office environment and stuff. But then I was more than happy being in an office environment. I then developed a growth mindset because I taught myself how to draw. I was, um, growing up, I had two or three really close friends who were really good artists. So I tried every now and again, but my products weren't nearly as good as theirs, so I just stuck to writing, which is something I enjoyed a lot more. I thought that drawing was a skill that you had to be born with, and I was, yeah, I just kind of that that view kind of cemented bearing in mind or it was reinforced bearing in mind I did try to improve my drawing. I just didn't really get anywhere. But then I learned how to draw way, way better than I thought I ever would. So then I, I then unconsciously or unintentionally developed a growth mindset because I realized, hold on, if I can draw, if I can learn how to draw, surely I can learn how to do anything if I put my mind into it. So I unintentionally developed a growth mindset. I realized that I had a general growth mindset, but I had a fixed mindset still on a few things. One of them, well, the two things in particular my career and my speech. So I then remembered I wanted to I wondered what other career I could do. Instead, I remembered I wanted to be a therapist. I didn't realize that my stutter wasn't the obstacle I perceived it to be. So, um, so then I sought out courses. And so I, I, I started a three year course. And the third year of that course, I did a, a coaching course. So I qualified as a, as a counselling psychotherapist and, and coach at the same time, pretty much that was around six years ago.
00:14:40 Nazish: That is something that is a beautiful journey. And, you know, the journey from I am a limitation to I have a limitation that identity, the shift in identity is enormous. And I. And I believe the beauty of it is that it does not happen overnight, which is so important for. Yeah. Which is so important for all of us to realize.
00:15:05 Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:15:05 Byron Athene: Oh, no, it it definitely happened. It happened in stages. And it happened. I'm, I'm glad it happened the way it did because I was able to. just extend kindness to myself. I was able to just like take things slowly and like, just take take the pressure off. Because I think one of the one my fluency was developed in stages and one of them was I one of them, believe it or not, one of them was the realization that I didn't have to talk fluently. I grew up thinking, well, no, you have to speak properly. You have to say things right the first time. Once I realized that that's not true, it seemed like a massive weight was lifted off my shoulders. And just that act alone helped me relax and be more comfortable. And because I was relaxed and more comfortable, I just ended up speaking more fluently anyway. It was um, yeah, it was a happy, happy, um, surprise. Happy coincidence.
00:16:00 Nazish: Absolutely, I can imagine. So what did you discover about yourself in this turning point that that you hadn't been able to access before?
00:16:12 Byron Athene: Able to find out about myself. Well, I guess I, I was, um, I was complete, I, I always viewed myself as being incomplete because I wasn't able to talk fluently, but I realized that that fluency doesn't equate to completeness. So again, that just took the pressure off that, that took the, that, that removed the, the stress I was feeling because I was being really critical towards myself and judgmental towards myself. So it helped me see myself as being whole despite any of my traits or my abilities.
00:16:49 Nazish: Absolutely. That is, that is beautiful in the fact that you walk the road, gives you what you teach a particular kind of weight.
00:17:00 Byron Athene: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess, yeah, I guess that's true.
00:17:04 Nazish: Yeah. So, you know, you specialize in emotions and the growth mindset. What's the practical path that someone wants? Who wants a growth mindset but keeps getting pulled back by fear?
00:17:18 Byron Athene: Yeah. Well, I think one of the almost ironic things about a growth mindset, it's the same with resilience as well. I think we are all born with a growth mindset. Like we are all born with resilience, but we have experiences and some of those experiences involve negative emotions. And so we then restrict our resilience and growth mindsets because of the pain we associated with them. So then we learn to not be resilient or to have a fixed mindset. So I think the best way to, to, to gain a growth mindset is to remind yourself that you have one already and you just have to turn it back on. So you turn it off. You just have to turn it back on. It's the same with resilience. So a practical thing to do is to maybe question, what do you think would happen if you were to, um, to reunite with your innate growth mindset. What, what, what negative emotions do you think you would, you would feel what, what criticisms do you think you would, you would receive? What, what, what judgments would other people make? And do those have to impact you in the way that you you might have thought that they that they did.
00:18:31 Nazish: Yeah, I completely agree with you there. So, uh, that is such an important thing for anybody listening right now to go ahead and do it. So like, you know, working with protective part rather than the, rather than against it, that is much more compassionate and effective approach than just the push through version.
00:18:50 Byron Athene: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And again, I think, uh, along with resilience and growth mindset, I think self-compassion was a normal innate part of ourselves as well. But we and self-worth and self-esteem as well. That's, something that I work I work with a lot with my clients. Even if they present an issue might be something else. But self-esteem and self-worth often comes up. And I think it's a shame that we don't know that, or we don't realize that all of us are born with intrinsic, infinite self-worth, like we are all born multi-billionaires metaphorically, but we're not taught that. So we we then gauge our worth based on how other people treat us. So if people treat us well, then we tend to have high self-worth. If people don't treat us well, then we tend to have low, low self-worth. And that impacts so self esteem as well. So self self-worth is the inherent intrinsic value that we have. Self esteem is how much you like yourself. And those are two distinctly different things, but they are, they are linked. If you realize how much self-worth we have, I think that would have a natural Impact on realizing. Well, I think that would help us, um, realize that we should have self, um, high self-esteem as well.
00:20:14 Nazish: Absolutely. I completely agree with you there. And you have a theory about why we have negative emotions. And it sounds like you believe they are not the enemy. They are actually communicating something. Can you unpack that for us?
00:20:31 Byron Athene: Sure. Okay. Well, I'll try to I'll try to. Okay. So I think our negative emotions, every negative emotion that an adult has stems from the communication we had as babies. So when we're babies, we when a newborn baby only has needs and when there's a need that's not met, it's not as if we can say, boy, I'm hungry or can you turn the heating up or down, please? So an unmet need naturally feels bad. And so the baby cries. Someone ideally comes along and meets the need. So, um, so that's the, that's the, that's the way that babies communicated because there wasn't any other way. So a mere newborn baby starts to have desires and they, they, they try to use the same process they use to get their needs met to get their desires met. But there's a very important difference between an unmet need and an unmet desire. When there's an unmet need, there's a naturally occurring bad sensation. A baby doesn't have to do anything to feel cold except be in a cold environment. Their senses will reflect the cold environment. They'll cry. Someone will come along and hopefully make changes. So there's a naturally occurring bad sensation when there's an unmet need, because there isn't a naturally occurring bad sensation when there's an unmet desire, we have to create one. So I think that's the birth of bad emotion. So that's the that's that's what the baby did. I call it the genie lamp hypothesis, because it's almost like we rub a genie lamp because there's a wish we, we, we want that's not that's not being granted originally. And we're talking about babies starting from like three months. So any wish a baby has at that stage can be granted immediately. But the older the baby gets, the more unrealistic the wishes might might become. But we still rub the lamp, which means we get the discomfort, but we don't get the. We don't get the wish, the wish, wish met. So that's that's my theory of emotion. I call a genie lamp hypothesis. We are, as adults, rubbing a broken genie lamp every time we feel bad.
00:22:31 Nazish: That is so wonderful. And, you know, negative emotions as messengers rather than malfunctions that really reframe the entire relationship. And I think once we stop fighting them, we can actually hear what they are trying to say.
00:22:48 Byron Athene: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
00:22:50 Nazish: And I guess that's where the real growth begins.
00:22:54 Byron Athene: Definitely. Yeah. That's one of the that's one of the many avenues that could that could lead to, um, to, uh, spiritual and personal growth.
00:23:05 Nazish: Absolutely. So, Byron, after this conversation, I know there are going to be a lot of people willing to, you know, uh, connect with you, find your work. So where can they do so?
00:23:17 Byron Athene: Okay, they can go to my website. My website is just my name dot com. So b y r o n a t h e n e dot com. They'll, they'll, they'll find a list of my services. They'll find my contact details. So if they feel free to reach out to, I don't know, even if it's just to say hello, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll get back to you. I've also written a book recently. It was published in December called Find Your Path to Resilience that's available on Amazon and bookshop dot org on um, or as paper, paperback and Kindle, uh, Kindle additions if they. They're more. If they're interested in psychological philosophical ideas and good practical ways to regain your resilience, then they could they could pick that up.
00:24:09 Nazish: Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I will make sure to include these details into the show notes. So that's a lot of people can reach out to you.
00:24:18 Byron Athene: Thank you.
00:24:19 Nazish: Yeah. So thank you so much, Byron. I hope everyone listening. The emotions you have been running from might actually be the ones most worth listening to. Until that, take care of yourself and I will be back with another episode of Soul Sparks.
